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Author Topic: Local net on repeater output for training?  (Read 10367 times)

AB5CC

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« on: August 21, 2006, 05:25:39 PM »

I have a question about use of the output frequency of our local club repeater.  I am the club president and at the monthly meeting we always assign net controls for the upcoming Tuesday night nets.  The ARES guy asked that we have one of the nets on simplex so we can see what our individual ranges are, etc.  I agreed and said that we should have it on the repeater output frequency because that way everyone would know where to meet and in case of an emergency, we naturally would be monitoring the repeater frequency and it would be easier to get everyone together.

The repeater trustee says that this is illegal, the repeater output is not a simplex authorized frequency.  The club owns the repeater.  The net is the club's net, and the simplex net plans have been announced at the meeting, in the newsletter and on the nets.  I have lived in another place where this was in the emergency plan and was practiced from time to time with no problems.

Has something changed, or is this still OK?

Thanks,
Kenneth
AB5CC
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KC8VWM

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2006, 06:38:59 PM »

I am going to say that it's not "illegal" it's just poor / bad operating practice.  This is because I feel there may be potential for someone logging on the net to interfere (perhaps unintentionally) with another coordinated repeater that may not be located in your immediate vicinity. It is my opinion that if this were to occur, then it would not a good reflection of the ARES overall intentions.

I would personally avoid this plan becuase of the "interference potential" involved.

Besides, ARES should already have some prearranged simplex frequencies to use in the event the repeater should go down. I do agree with you in the idea that  it's always good practice to get the members used to the idea of using alternate simplex frequencies. A simplex net would only help to further promote that idea in scope and practice.

I think most ARES / RACES chapters across the country typically have a backup plan involving the use of a few nationally recognised backup simplex frequencies like 147.55 as the main backup and 146.46 as the  secondary backup.

I would recommend using something like the secondary backup frequency for the net as people would be made more aware of the frequencies "national" status and in addition it would further encourage people to fine tune thier stations performance for typical simplex operation as they should be doing anyways.

There is nothing wrong with using the repeater input during a real case scenerio but I just wouldn't be using it unless it was the real deal situation.

During the real deal you could have a station with an omni directional antenna monitor the repeater input frequency for people who are looking for the ARES emergency net. This station would simply be assigned to the task of redirecting them to the appropriate simplex frequency for actual ARES operations taking place.

Just a few thoughts to think about.

73
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AB5CC

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2006, 08:10:31 PM »

Well, that is a good idea.  Have someone there to redirect folks to the assigned simplex frequency.  That is why I posted this question, to get some ideas.  We are in a rural area and the closest repeaters on the same freq are 170 miles and 160 miles.  I know from experience that operating on the input could be a problem.  But, the output would not likely result in any interference.  Thanks for your input.

Kenneth
AB5CC
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W0IPL

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2006, 10:26:37 PM »

Unless something has changed in the last few days, the FCC does NOT specify what a frequency is to be used for (repeater/simplex). They do, in some cases, specify what mode will be used (60M is a prime example). Beyond that, it is up to the users to decide what is used for what. We do that with frequency coordinators and users guides.

The FCC is only interested if someone is using a frequency for malicious interference and then only if the "local" users cannot fix the situation.

In your case I believe the "users" (the club owning the repeater) have decided to use the repeater output frequency, under tightly specified conditions, as a temporary simplex frequency. No harm, no problem.
Uncommon? Yes. Illegal? No.

I do agree that a better way would be to use a simplex frequency that has been agreed upon by the group for use as a simplex frequency and is published in the local group's procedures manual.

C Ya
 Pat
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KG4RUL

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 05:23:14 AM »

"I am going to say that it's not "illegal" it's just poor / bad operating practice. This is because I feel there may be potential for someone logging on the net to interfere (perhaps unintentionally) with another coordinated repeater that may not be located in your immediate vicinity. It is my opinion that if this were to occur, then it would not a good reflection of the ARES overall intentions.

I would personally avoid this plan becuase of the "interference potential" involved. "

=====

If they are using the repeater OUTPUT frequency, why would there be any more "interference potential" than when the repeater is being used normally?  

Using a local repeater and my own station as an example: if I were using the output frequency in this way, my antenna is at 15', compared to the repeater at 420'.  I would be less likely to have an "interference potential".

Dennis KG4RUL
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WA4MJF

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 10:34:26 AM »

Sounds like you're letting the
tail wag the dog.  First, get
a 605 and appoint another trustee,
he/she (not the pervert kind) works
for the club, not vice-versa.
A trustee is a trustee only as long
as it pleasures an officer of the
club, it is not a lifetime appointment.
Secondly, go on with your plan, it sounds
logical and is completely legal.

73 de Ronnie
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K2GW

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 11:31:27 AM »

It's perfectly legal since the club owns the repeater and is the coordinated party.  An occaisional club  net on the output frequency would probably have less range than the repeater itself and thus shouldn't interfere with adjacent co-channel repeaters.  Operating simplex on the output is a common practice when a repeater fails in an emergency.

There's no such thing as a "repeater only" frequency in part 97.  I suggest you talk to the trustee, have him reread the rules, and if he is still refusing to go along with the club's wishes, replace him.  As the club president, just fill out a new club license form with the FCC to appoint a new trustee.

73

Gary, K2GW
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KD8CPP

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2006, 12:18:52 PM »

No, it is not illegal, and here not that un-common. If there is not too much rag-chew on the repeater,it would be fine. Here, the local radio club has 2 repeaters, with a ton of rag-chew, then our EmComm group has one, with not much on it. When we do a fundrasing event, almost everyone in the group is there, and when you get to within 5-10mi from the event, we always have a radio on simplex, you call on the simplex frequency that is the output. When we do Bingo at homecomeing the roads are CLOSED VERY CLOSED, and no one comes in or out without a pass, each group gets so many. So our people call us when they will be at the meeting point and someone goes and gives them the permit and rides in. But for most events with ALOT of communications, we use a simplex freq. usually 147.525.

73s DE KD8CPP
MSG VIA PKBGWV VIA WVDAREN

West Virginia Digital Amateur Radio Emergency Network
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WB6BYU

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2006, 12:56:41 PM »

Certainly not illegal - and something that folks should be
familiar with doing for those times when the repeater goes
down and you want those monitoring it to be aware of the
problem.  (It is amazing how often someone can't figure
out how to override the auto-offset programming on their
rig.)

I regularly use simplex or reverse pair when I get into
a dead spot where I can't hit the repeater.  This is an
important technique even when the repeater is working -
if you can't hit the repeater, you may be able to get the
attention of someone listening there who can relay your
message.

The only problems with it are (1) that the station on
simplex has to wait for the repeater squelch tail to drop
before transmitting, and if working reverse pair they
can't hear the repeater; (2) stations who can't hear
those using simplex are likely to key up the repeater
and cause unintentional interference.  The former takes
practice (which is another good reason to do it regularly).
To avoid the latter, simply turn off the repeater for
the duration of the net (which also solves the first
problem.)

You should, of course, also have a simplex frequency
selected and publicized for the group for regular use.
We recently had an exercise were teams set up portable
stations around the county, and we were pleasantly
surprised how far we could communicate on simplex with
temporary antennas in the 10 to 15 foot height range.

N8EMR

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2006, 07:10:26 PM »

It would not be illegal to use the output frequency but unless you shut off the repeater your frequency is going to be trounced by repeater users.

While not illegal, its not a good idea. there are other simplex frequencies to use.

I do like the fact your trying to test simplex. So many people setup moble and base for repeater use and find out pretty quickly that 1/4 on the mobile isnt going to cut it and that copper pipe jpole isnt going to make it when the repeater is down..
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KE4SKY

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2006, 06:26:52 AM »

We teach in our RACES training that in the event of an repeater failure nets which would regularly meet on a repeater would use the output frequency on simplex, because there will be people who have not "gotten the word" and this is where people will be listening.

While frequencies within the repeater and digital sub-bands ordinarily should not be used for simplex, because of the risk of interference, there is no harm in doing so for organized training activities, with the knowledge and concurrance of the repeater trustee or licensee.   We do this all the time.

If anyone would like an example simplex exercise description, net control script etc. which has been used in the Washington, DC area, send me an email.
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AB2MH

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2006, 09:26:26 AM »

Firstly, there are no assigned frequencies in Amateur Radio.

Not even coordinated repeaters are assigned a frequency.  They are simply given the right of way in case an interference complaint has to be resolved by the FCC.

So that means you can legally operate on any repeater's input/output frequency without fear of doing something illegal, as long as you're not interfering with someone else.

A net on simplex is not a bad idea, but I would not hold it on a repeater's output frequency unless the repeater were turned off.  

Around here there are way too many jammers on the repeater itself when the net is in progress.  One can only imagine if they were allowed to stomp all over the simplex folks while a net is in progress.
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WA4MJF

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2006, 10:08:18 AM »

That may be how coordinators do it in 2 land,
but down here, SERA definately assigns your
repeater a frequency pair when they coordinate you.
Unless all y'all don't have many repeaters,
I don't see how the coordinator could not
assign a frequency pair to a repeater.
Often a CTCSS tone is assigned, too.
You move the repeater off that frequency
down here and you are outta coordination.

73 de Ronnie
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KE4SKY

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2006, 12:02:18 PM »

"Around here there are way too many jammers on the repeater itself when the net is in progress. One can only imagine if they were allowed to stomp all over the simplex folks while a net is in progress."

Yes, it happens on simplex too, just as it does on HF.  All good training because you need to learn to work through the efforts of the childish whack jobs.
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AB2MH

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Local net on repeater output for training?
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2006, 12:30:23 PM »

WA4JMF wrote:
> That may be how coordinators do it in 2 land,
> but down here, SERA definately assigns your
> repeater a frequency pair when they coordinate you.
> Unless all y'all don't have many repeaters,
> I don't see how the coordinator could not
> assign a frequency pair to a repeater.
> Often a CTCSS tone is assigned, too.
> You move the repeater off that frequency
> down here and you are outta coordination.

You didn't understand what I said.

Our coordinators "assign" frequency pairs and CTCSS tones, just like yours do.  But they don't really assign the frequency pairs, because under part 97 of the FCC rules, no station can be assigned frequencies in the amateur service.

All they can do is "coordinate" that frequency pair.

All that coordination means is that in the event that a coordinated and uncoordinated station use that frequency and cause interference to each other, the coordinated one has right of way, and the uncoordinated station has the responsibility to resolve the interference.  

This also means that as long as the coordinated repeater is not transmitting, anyone can use the frequencies coordinated for its use.
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