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Author Topic: NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?  (Read 24247 times)

WA9PVJ

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« on: July 17, 2005, 04:48:59 PM »

We at AF MARS were just informed that ALL participation shall be with radios that meet the NTIA standards by the year 2008. This might be a non-issue for someone who already has one of the few NTIA compliant radios available, or if they have the bucks to spare for a highly stable oscillator. (More on this later.)

But isn’t this a case of the tail wagging the dog? In the beginning, hams volunteered their time, expertise and equipment to promote the MARS mission. Now, instead of using your regular ham gear on MARS, which was more than adequate for decades, you can use only equipment, which is NTIA compliant. Why is this? Is SHARES or FEMA using personnel who are incapable of tuning a simple receiver a few hertz?  Can they only operate a CB style radio? I don’t know.

I do know, after working 32+ years for a major defense contractor, that the customer (Uncle Sam) can and will make some demanding and costly changes. But, these costs are borne by them, not the contractors. So why are we, mere volunteers, asked to foot the bill for NTIA compliant equipment? If they want us to only use NTIA compliant radios, why don’t they pay for or supply them? They are certainly not needed for the ham bands. And the truly compliant ones cost around $15,000.00!

The simple fact of the matter is that NO amateur transceiver is truly NTIA compliant or ever will be, period. So someone put up a website that says this radio is compliant and that one is not, big deal!  The sales catalogues they used to gather that specification data is backed by the manufactures for the amateur bands only. It’s not “type accepted” or “certified” for anything else, MARS included. (You are not allowed to put a CR-282 high stability crystal unit into an ICOM 706MKIIG and market it for commercial marine service use, are you?)

The MARS leadership needs to re-evaluate their position on this one.

Roman
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W3JKS

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2005, 05:00:09 AM »

It is not up to the MARS leadership.  It is a Federal mandate - not optional.  We operate on Federal frequencies, we are required to abide by their rules.

Like it or not, it is a requirement.  We have seen this coming for a long time...

john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3O/AAA9AC
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WA9PVJ

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2005, 10:40:29 AM »

John,

That's the problem. Who made this requirement? Who can we kick out of office?

"Federal Mandate"? Last I checked, The People made the rules, not some obscure federal burocrat.

"Challange-Up" needs to be the catch phrase of the 21st century. Not only in MARS but in a lot of places.
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N3ZKP

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2005, 12:34:08 PM »

<< "Federal Mandate"? Last I checked, The People made the rules, not some obscure federal burocrat. >>

What fantasy world do you live in? That's not how THIS real world operates.

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N3ZKP

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2005, 12:37:09 PM »

<< We at AF MARS were just informed that ALL participation shall be with radios that meet the NTIA standards by the year 2008. >>

Informed by whom, when and how?

Unless Chief, Navy-Marine Corp MARS promulgated an ALL message today, this is the first I have heard of it.

Lon - NNN0OOR / NNN0GAW ONE
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N3ZKP

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2005, 12:42:30 PM »

Interesting ...

I can't find WA9PVJ in any call sign database.
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WA4MJF

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2005, 04:11:36 PM »

The CAP, another part of the USAF, has NTIA
compliant radios listed on their site.
The USAF seems to really gung ho on this.
I think most of their radios already meet
NTIA specs.

Chief Army MARS says it is not in the
foreseeable future for us.

I think that it is a service driven thing,
not NTIA driven.  The Army (especially, the
green beanies) still uses a lot
of tactical radios for MARS patches, so I
(and apparently the CAM agrees) don't
see the Army changing soon.

BTW, don't get FCC certification and NTIA
specs confused, different animals.

73 de Ronnie
AAR4LG
Special Status/Life Member (or retired for short)
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WA4MJF

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2005, 04:13:44 PM »

BTW, their are some.  I think the Harris
radios that W1AW uses meet NTIA specs.
SGC has some NTIA spec radios, too.

73 de Ronnie
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K3WVU

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2005, 06:42:07 AM »

Lon,

I did some checking, and this appears to be a non-issue as far as Navy/MARING CORPS MARS is concerned.  Apparently, it's something that AF MARS has decided to do on its own.

73

Dwight
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N3ZKP

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2005, 07:52:52 AM »

Dwight,

My concern is we have some guy posting supposed "facts" under a phony call sign. You notice he hasn't replied to my request for "who, when and how" details.

Lon

PS - Are you going to make the Area Conference in September?
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K3WVU

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2005, 12:34:50 PM »

Lon,

I doubt it.  We're going to England in August to visit my father-in-law for his 95th birthday, so that should just about cure me on travel for awhile.  Not ruling it out, though--I would like to catch it.

Sometimes these rumors tend to spin out of control.  The first thing I did was "run it up the chain" for clarification.  Doesn't seem to be anything to worry about.  Even if it were true, I could make two of my HF rigs NTIA compliant for about $230 and a little soldering.

73

Dwight
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N3ZKP

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2005, 01:47:18 PM »

Hope you make it, but if you don't, I hope you enjoy the trip to England.

I had this conversation with Bo when I was GAW here and he shot down the idea. He indicated it wasn't an issue with either of the MARS services. I'm surprised John jumped in and gave the impression it's a comingl in Army MARS.

Lon
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W3JKS

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2005, 04:00:21 AM »

I know that the narrowband VHF-FM part of the specs is coming to Army MARS, for certain.  The HF stability issue will hit us all, sooner or later.  Timetables depend on the service, but the sooner we prepare for it, the less of a problem it will be.

Plus, I believe that it is simply good practice.  Modern digital modes are more successful with a stable radio.  I have been buying TCXOs for my rigs since the beginning for that reason...

john W3JKS/AAT3BF/AAM3O/AAA9AC
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KB3JUV

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 09:40:39 AM »

From AR Newsline:

BAXTER TARGET OF PHONY PACKET
 
   The new rules concerning automatic message forwarding are
already being tested by another of those phantom hams who seem to
exist only as a derogatory packet radio posting.  Almost as the
FCC was issuing its notice easing the rules dealing with
automatic message forwarding a phony message targeting
International Amateur Radio Net manager Glenn Baxter, K1MAN
appeared on a suburban Chicago packet bulletin board.  The
message originated in Winnetka, Illinois and indicated that the
Drug Enforcement Agency or DEA was monitoring various ham radio
communications including bulletins issued by Baxter and his IARN
service.  
   The All United States posting was signed with the name Hal
and the call sign WA9PVJ.  Newsline checked the latest Sam Call
Sign database.  Guess what.  There is no such person as Hal or
call sign WA9PVJ listed.  Nor does WA9PVJ appear in our latest
printed callbook directory.
   This would seem to be another case of a packet radio SySop
being victimized by a person hiding behind the anonymity of a
keyboard and radio while putting the ham license of the SySop in
jeopardy.  
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K3HVG

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NTIA COMPLIANT BY 2008?
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2005, 08:21:22 AM »

Yes, there is a Congressional mandate for all Federal agencies (DOD and Civilian)to be in compliance with the NTIA redbook by 2008, at the latest.  Notwithstanding some military tactical equipment in current use and that will be in the inventory for the forseeble future, if its on a Federal frequency, it will be NTIA compliant.  The reason for the compliance specification(s) is two-fold.  First, it provides minimun technical operating standards for equipment for modes and frequency bands.  Secondly, it provides a unified set of procurement specifications such that a Fed agency can procure and expect a certain level of adequacy (based on the specification(s).  The NTIA is the mirror of the private-sector's FCC.  Each entity must function and co-exist in the spectrum environment in a benign manner.   That's the idea.  Each Agency's frequency and spectrum manager is responsible for ensuring that operating units are in compliance with the appropriate NTIA reg and spec. The NTIA is not directly in the enforcement business, although they will become involved in disputes and problem-solving.  Enter volunteer organizations like CAP and MARS.  CAP has already been, and now it looks like MARS will be pulled into the pit.  Let me first say that the case of HF equipment is pretty easy to handle.  The tx has to be within 20Hz and the spurious has to be down about 32dB or something like that... no problem with a lot of current ham gear. (One can check out CAP's NTC website and see both HF and VHF equipment lists.) One fine point; there's no such thing as "NTIA Compliance" or acceptance, in the same sense as "FCC Acceptance".  What there is is equipment that is NTIA compliant.  For CAP, and maybe now MARS, its the VHF case that's a bear.  The specs include both transmitter stability and purity and some rather onerous receiver specs, too!!  That's the rub.. there's virtually nil ham gear that will do the job and no manufacturer in his/her right mind could economically do so.  I can agree that one's signal should be clean and on frequency.  Beyond that, if I can accept some interference, etc. then so be it.  But, the NTIA specifications say different.  That, and the migration to narrowband, is the current undoing.  I applaud MAR's ability to forestall the inevitable but it is coming. Its really too bad that "they" couldn't come up with a waiver such that these volunteer organizations couldn't have some slack.  CAP has arguably lost 50% of it comm capability owing to NTIA compliance.   Federal agency managers are going to be held to the task of ensuring that those under their purview operate in compliance and, trust me, they're going to do it!  Hopefully, when the ultimate sunset date comes around, someone will do the right thing, unless its already too late.  But, heck, just set up your equipment and label it "Static Display - For Demonstration and Instructional Purposes Only".  That'll baffle your IG or Evaluator!
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