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Author Topic: Navy MARS kaput?  (Read 75065 times)

K7VV

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2009, 02:49:33 PM »

Dwight,
Yes, Navy was very much behind the curve on this one, and it might cost them dearly.
Here in Oregon our Gov gave ARES $250,000 to put Winlink (packet and pactor) in every county EOC.  That project will be completed by the end of June.  Since I'm Navy MARS and the ARES EC for the state EOC at Oregon Emergency Management I wanted to set up the same capability at the state EOC.  There was very little interest on the part of state Navy MARS, and we have never exercised/drilled with them as they don't participate except to talk to each other for about 10 minutes on a voice net. So far as I know they have never passed any emcomm exercise traffic at the state or county level.  
So, after talking to Chief Army MARS at Dayton last week it looks like that's the way to go, at least they are doing something.
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K3WVU

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2009, 04:34:56 PM »

Vince,

I transferred to Army MARS last year after 7 years in Navy MARS.  It's as different as night and day.

73

Dwight
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W7TUT

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2009, 10:11:28 PM »

Just a note about a previous post by a Oregon Navy Mars member about what we lack, if that member would ever particiate, he would know whats going on.  We do digital broadcast on all nets with digital checkins, we do at least 2 ECOM exercises a year with both voice and digital, we have 60% of our members on Winlink and 70% using a common navymars.org email address, we participate in at least 2 hamfest and the Seapac ham convention, we have at least 3 MARS days out (like field day) exercises, we work closly with Oregon Army MARS, we
do exercise support for the Oregon Wing CAP (a totally
digital net), we do regional conference presentations,
were very busy.  If members don't participate, they don't know whats going on, all they can do is blow smoke.
NNN0FHA/GBP/AS0 FOUR
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W7TUT

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2009, 10:15:23 PM »

K7VV, if thats the way you feel, then send me your
resignation, I will have OSP/OEM assign someone
else to man the NNN0OEM station.
NNN0GBP
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AL7QL

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2009, 10:31:54 PM »

As an employee of the federal government and with 13 years of MARS service behind me and more to go, I certainly applaud all efforts to improve or enhance ECOM capabilities.  However, it is worth stating that making WINLINK a backbone for ECOM may be a little short sighted.  WINLINK has its place however, our Department's most recent IT security training is clear when it speaks to the security risks associated with internet based communication programs as well as the vulnerability of the internet to cyber terrorism.  About a month ago the internet was brought down in a portion of California.  Story at end of this entry.  All internet communications were disrupted.  WINLINK would not have been operable.  

----------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON, Aug. 24, 2008 – Recent cyber attacks against government information systems overseas should serve as a lesson that the United States needs to continue to strengthen its defenses against those who would target the country’s financial, business and military systems, the commander of U.S. Northern Command said today.

By Fred W. Baker III
American Forces Press Service

---------------------------------------------------

The following is an excerpt from article on internet security. Link follows:
http://www.fortmilltimes.com/122/story/555181.html

Mica and Rep. Tom Petri, R-Wis., requested the inspector general's investigation.

The audit is the latest in a series of reports and warnings about weaknesses in the U.S. government's computer networks, including revelations that spies have hacked into the U.S. electric grid and that a military aircraft program was breached, although classified information was not compromised.

The Obama administration, meanwhile, is wrangling over a recently completed review of the nation's cybersecurity, which is expected to detail how the U.S. should manage and secure its networks.

---------------------------------------------------

There are many examples of security and vulnerability issues directly linked to the world wide web and relying on the web for communications capabilities during an emergency let alone a large scale or regional scale cyber attack.  China has developed a new operating system and is installing it on government and military systems, hoping to make Beijing's networks impenetrable to U.S. military and intelligence agencies.

The secure operating system, known as Kylin, was disclosed to Congress during recent hearings that provided new details on how China's government is preparing to wage cyberwarfare with the United States.

"We are in the early stages of a cyber arms race and need to respond accordingly," said Kevin G. Coleman, a private security specialist who advises the government on cybersecurity. He discussed Kylin during a hearing of the U.S. China Economic and Security Review Commission on April 30.

The deployment of Kylin is significant, Mr. Coleman said, because the system has "hardened" key Chinese servers. U.S. offensive cyberwar capabilities have been focused on getting into Chinese government and military computers outfitted with less secure operating systems like those made by Microsoft Corp.

"This action also made our offensive cybercapabilities ineffective against them, given the cyberweapons were designed to be used against Linux, UNIX and Windows," he said.  

So, I think WINLINK has its place but lets be cautious when thinking it can be deployed as a secure (it isn't neither is the Windows OS) dependable (no more so than the internet or Windows) replacement for radio communications we are only fooling ourselves.  WINLINK is great hobby software but I fear it will  prove to be problematic when it is most needed.

A final thought or two... Many of our government agencies are starting to migrate to Linux.  It is my understanding that some have developed and migrated to Security-Enhanced Linux or SELinux.  If we are seriously thinking about web based ECOM tools then I recommend migrating to Linux not Windows which will help with security but unfortunately does little to address the vulnerability of the internet to cyber terror.  

---------------------------------------------------

The afore mentioned article for your reading pleasure.

A Cyber-Attack on an American City
Bruce Perens

Just after midnight on Thursday, April 9, unidentified attackers climbed down four manholes serving the Northern California city of Morgan Hill and cut eight fiber cables in what appears to have been an organized attack on the electronic infrastructure of an American city. Its implications, though startling, have gone almost un-reported.

That attack demonstrated a severe fault in American infrastructure: its centralization. The city of Morgan Hill and parts of three counties lost 911
service, cellular mobile telephone communications, land-line telephone, DSL internet and private networks, central station fire and burglar alarms, ATMs, credit card terminals, and monitoring of critical utilities. In addition, resources that should not have failed, like the local hospital's internal computer network, proved to be dependent on external resources, leaving the hospital with a "paper system" for the day.

Commerce was disrupted in a 100-mile swath around the community, from San Jose to Gilroy and Monterey. Cash was king for the day as ATMs and credit card systems were down, and many found they didn't have sufficient cash on hand.

Services employees dependent on communication were sent home. The many businesses providing just-in-time operations to agriculture could not communicate.

In technical terms, the area was partitioned from the surrounding internet. What was the attackers goal? Nothing has been revealed. Robbery? With wires
cut, silent alarms were useless. Manipulation of the stock market? Companies, brokerages, and investors in the very wealthy community were cut off. Mayhem,
murder, terrorism? But nothing like that seems to have happened. Some theorize unhappy communications workers, given the apparent knowledge of the
community's infrastructure necessary for this attack. Or did the attackers simply want to teach us a lesson?

Although they are silent on the topic, I hope those responsible for emergency services, be they in business or government, are learning the lessons of
Morgan Hill. The first lesson is what stayed up: stand-alone radio systems and not much else. Cell phones failed. Cellular towers can not, in general,
connect phone calls on their own, even if both phones are near the same tower.

They communicate with a central switching computer to operate, and when that system doesn't respond, they're useless. But police and fire authorities still had internal communications via two-way radio.

Realizing that they'd need more two-way radio, authorities dispatched police to wake up the emergency coordinator of the regional ham radio club, and escort him to the community hospital with his equipment. Area hams dispatched ambulances and doctors, arranged for essential supplies, and relayed emergency communications out of the area to those with working telephones.

That the hospital's local network failed is evidence of over-dependence on centralized services. The development of the internet's communications
protocols was sponsored by the U.S. Department of Defense, and they were designed to survive large failures. But it still takes local engineering skill
to implement robust networking services. Most companies stop when something works, not considering whether or how it will work in an emergency.

Institutional networks, even those of emergency services providers, are rarely tested for operation while disconnected from the outside world. Many such
networks depend on outside services to match host names to network addresses, and thus stop operating the moment they are disconnected from the internet.
Even when the internal network stays up, email is often hosted on some outside service, and thus becomes unavailable. Programs that depend on an internet connection for license verification will fail, and this feature is often found in server software. Commercial VoIP telephone systems will stay up for internal use if properly engineered to be independent of outside resources, but consumer VoIP equipment will fail.

This should lead managers of critical services to reconsider their dependence on software-as-a-service rather than local servers. Having your email live at
Google means you don't have to manage it, but you can count on it being unavailable if your facility loses its internet connection. The same is true for any web service. And that's not acceptable if you work at a hospital or other emergency services provider, and really shouldn't be accepted at any company that expects to provide services during an infrastructure failure.

Email from others in your office should continue to operate.

What to do? Local infrastructure is the key. The services that you depend on, all critical web applications and email, should be based at your site. They need to be able to operate without access to databases elsewhere, and to resynchronize with the rest of your operation when the network comes back up. This takes professional IT engineering to implement, and will cost more to manage, but won't leave you sitting on your hands in an emergency.

Communications will be a problem during any emergency. Two-way radios have, to a great extent, been replaced by cellular "walkie-talkie" services that can not be relied upon to work during an infrastructure failure. Real two-way radios, stand-alone pager systems, and radio repeaters that enable regional communications are still available to the governments and businesses that endure the expense of planning, acquiring, maintaining, and testing them.

Corporate disaster planners should look into such facilities. Municipalities, regardless of their size, should not consider abandoning such resources in
favor of the less-robust cellular services.

Satellite telephones can be expected to keep operating, although they too depend on a land infrastructure. They are expensive, and they frequently fail in emergency situations simply because their users, administrative officials
rather than technical staff, fail to keep them charged and have no back-up power resource once they are discharged.

A big plus for Morgan Hill was that emergency services had an well-practiced partnership with the local hams. Since you can never budget for all of the
communications technicians you'll need in an emergency, using these volunteers is a must for any civil authority. They come with their own equipment, they run their own emergency drills and thus are ready to serve, and they are tinkerers able to improvise the communications system needed to meet a
particular emergency.

Which brings us to the issue of testing. No disaster system can be expected to work without regular testing, not only of the physical infrastructure provided for an emergency but of the people who are expected to use it, in its disaster mode. But such testing takes much time and work, and tends to trigger any lurking infrastructure problems, creating outages of its own. It's much better to work such things out as a result of testing than to meet them during a real disaster.

We should also consider whether it might be necessary to harden some of the local infrastructure of our communities. The old Bell System used to arrange
cables in a ring around a city, so that a cut in any one location could be routed around. It's not clear how much modern telephone companies have continued that practice. It might not have helped in Morgan Hill, as the attackers apparently even disabled an unused cable that could have been used to recover from the broken connections.

Surprisingly, manholes don't usually have locks. They rely on the weight of the cover and general revulsion to keep people out. They are more likely to
provide alarms for flooding than intrusion. Utility poles are similarly accessible. Much of our infrastructure isn't protected by anything so tough as a manhole cover. Underground cables are easily accessible in surface posts and "tombstones", boxes often located in residential neighborhoods. These can be wrecked with a screwdriver.

Most buried cable cuts are caused by operating a back-hoe without first using one of the "call before digging" services to mark out the location of all of
the buried utilities. What's done accidentally can also be done deliberately, and the same services that help diggers avoid utilities might point them out
to an attacker.

The most surprising news from Morgan Hill is that they survived reasonably unscathed. That they did so is a result of emergency planning in place for
California's four seasons: fire, floods, earthquakes, and riots. Most communities don't practice disaster plans as intensively.

Will there be another Morgan Hill? Definitely. And the next time it might happen to a denser community that won't be so astonishingly able to sustain
the trouble using its two-way radios and hams. The next time, it might be connected with some other event, be it crime or terrorism. Company and
government officers take notice: the only way you'll fare well is if you start planning now.

----------------------------------------------------

So lets not set ourselves up to fail by relying on  internet based sortware and vulnerable operating systems to provide emergency services support.  Remember our roots, the great tools at out disposal include; 1) our radios (HF, VHF); 2) digital modes including CW; 3) discipline and training; and last but far from least 4) a cadre of dedicated Air Force, Army and Navy MARS Operators ready to deploy to proudly serve a nation.  I salute each of you for your efforts to help keep our great nation secure and its people safe.  Peter NNN0SKL // NNN0GAB TWO
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W7TUT

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2009, 11:05:53 PM »

RGR Peter, during our last Cascade Peril exercise it took
several flip charts for the CAP to realize if a 8 or 9 earthquake hit off the Oregon coast, all Ham or MARS Winlink stations on the west coast would be gone.  The
NNN0WA RMS in Woodland WA is in a skinny 6 foot unsecured rack that would just fall over.  Any tabletop systems would do the same.  We need to rely on moving traffic outside of the affected area.  During that exercise all traffic was sent to a station in central
Oregon, then put into Winlink and delivered.  During the
first week of April, several comments were made about Chief MARS broadcast being late.  After checking routing it was found a software update had been done to the CMS's that stopped mailbox routing.  A whole week of messages were gone.  So even with Winlink, we can disable ourselves very easily.  So don't depend on technology totally have a backup...Randy/NNN0FHA...
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CURIOUSHAM

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2009, 07:32:33 AM »

Wow, the swabjockeys are getting defensive!  First, W3LK runs sobbing from the room like a little girl, and now, a couple more are in here telling us how great Navy MARS is doing it's job, and then charge off in some meaningless discussion about one of the many digital modes used in MARS!

None of the muscle-flexing and posturing explains away the fact that Navy MARS is taking on water and going down just like the Titanic.

Gurgle, gurgle, gurgle, gurgle.

HA HA HA HA HA HA!
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KD4NUE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2009, 08:01:06 AM »

"K7VV, if thats the way you feel, then send me your
resignation, I will have OSP/OEM assign someone
else to man the NNN0OEM station.
NNN0GBP "

**********************

Folks, not much question here.

Remember This:

In the Responsibilities Enclosure, Figure 4,

"The Secretary of the Army ..... shall have the primary responsibility for the MARS DSCA mission"

(DSCA = Defense Support of Civil Authorities)

**************************

And not a single shot was fired, but the result was surrender....  

Re-read this thread, and judge for yourself.

It is best that folks just take what information is available and decide among themselves.

This is what defines who we are......

Why is open discussion so deeply feared by some of the participants?

This could have been an opportunity for cohesion, and hashing out things that haven't been said, rather than hanging the messenger.

Very Sad Indeed.......

David
KD4NUE
 


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K7VV

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2009, 09:56:57 AM »

Randy,
It pains me to see Navy-Marine Corps MARS members fighting among themselves.

It is particularly distressing to see that when an Oregon member raises criticisms of the program, the reaction of the Oregon State Director is to ask that member to resign.  But, I guess that's the way it is.

But, just to be clear, I'd like to make several points:

a. The one or two digital check-in's on Oregon nets are done on MT-63, a mode that has no state-wide infrastructure and hence is totally useless for state-wide EMCOMM applications.  MT-63 also does not do error correction, and therefore is not usable for EMCOMM traffic where 100% accuracy is required.

b. Participation of Navy MARS at Oregon hamfairs has, at least in the past 20 years, been limited to a table where a couple of the members sit and talk to each other while other existing members sign-in.  When was the last time Navy MARS did seminar at the SEAPAC ham fair, for example?  The answer is, never.

c. Navy MARS participation in state level exercises is non-existent.  I've been at Oregon Emergency Management since 2002, and not once during that time has Navy MARS passed a single message to the state.  During the recent Cascadia Peril, for example, NNN0OEM regularly monitored the state net frequencies, the PA1E net and the Laurel Mt. repeater--with no result.  There was no plan for Navy MARS to participate at the state level, and sure enough, there was no participation.

d. Training activities have been very low.  In the past six years I've checked into the Washington and Oregon nets at least often enough to meet requirements.  Yet, not once has there been any traffic on those nets either for me personally or for OEM.  It's become a meaningless ritual to say 'NNN0OEM, operator NNN0BPP, no traffic', and that's the end of it.  Finally, there have been years at a time when there has been no training net at all, and even when there was very few members bothered to participate in it.

e. It's interesting that the State Director still links Or. Emergency Management to the Oregon State Police.  OEM hasn't been part of OSP for almost three years now; it was moved to the Military Department.  As to assigning someone else to operate NNN0OEM, I think that's going to be a problem, since there are no other Navy MARS members in the OEM Amateur Radio Unit, and hence no one else with access to the secure areas at OEM.  We do, however, have Army MARS members, and, from your responses, they will soon have one more.

In short, there is precious little to participate in when it comes to Navy MARS.

Now, AL2QL, let's look a couple of other things.
First, your assertion that in the California cable cutting incident Winlink would have failed.  Clearly, you do not understand the Winlink system if you think that a local area, or even a state-wide, failure of the internet causes Winlink to fail!  Take a good look at the architecture of the Winlink system.  You are NOT dependent on the available of the internet in the effected area.  For example, in the December 2007 storms and flooding in NW Oregon and SW Washington, traffic was passed to Oregon state agencies via HF Winlink Pactor; no internet was needed in the incident area.    
Finally, I find it incredible that you actually seem to believe that an army of MARS operators is available to march forward to 'help keep our great nation secure and its people safe.'  That's a fantasy world.  There is no such army.  Never has been, never will be.  With a little luck, there are enough MARS operators around to support a few crucial EMCOMM functions in relatively long haul situations.  And it looks to me like those operators are very likely to be Army MARS members, and very unlikely to be Navy MARS members.
de K7VV/NNN0BPP/NNN0OEM
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AL7QL

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2009, 12:12:10 PM »

So if I understand you correctly, when the internet goes down WINLINK still works in the affected area?  The California cable cutting brought down the internet for a radius of 100 miles or 200 mile diameter.  If the internet is out, how does WINLINK operate.  Please help me understand this.  FYI, I do have WINLINK at my station ported to LINUX.  My WINLINK is internet dependent.  Best wishes, Peter
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K7VV

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2009, 01:03:08 PM »

Well now, let's look at the possibilities.

Let's assume you are in town A, and have a 'disaster' in which your local internet goes out and  you have to send emergency traffic.  Your options are as follows:
a.  Remember that the objective of YOU having an RMS Packet Gateway in YOUR town is NOT for YOUR use, but for your neighboring town's  use.  After all, if you still had the internet for your gateway, you would still have the internet for regular e-mail and would not use the Gateway at all.  So, question is, do you have a neighboring city or county that has a Gateway you can hit?  If so, connect and send your traffic.  Here in Oregon we  have over 40 VHF Winlink Gatways, with more to follow.

b.  If not, then, if your system is well designed, you may have a legacy packet node on the same channel as a more distant RMS Packet Gateway.  If so, you can use ONE node hop to get to that Gateway. In Oregon we have a few of these situations, usually legacy packet nodes that can be reached from the coast thru which coastal counties can connect to Winlink Gateways in the Valley.

c. If not, then you move to HF Pactor. Each of our county EOC's has Winlink Packet client software and we have installed two Winlink RMS Pactor Gateways in the state for our own use.  One in the state EOC at the Capitol and one in the eastern part of the state. There are another 50+ world-wide that could also be used.  

In all of the above cases the name of the game is 'chase the internet', so that the traffic goes into the world-wide server system (Washington DC, Perth, Vienna, San Diego and Halifax).  But, just for fun, let's suppose that the whole internet goes down world-wide.  Hard to see how that could happen, but hey, suppose it does.

Then, in Oregon, the counties would connect to one of the state HF Pactor Winlink Gateways and leave their traffic.  Since there are only two, all the state level recipients of traffic have to do is check both those servers and pick up their traffic....you don't need the internet at all.  

Sounds like a pretty good system to me!
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K3WVU

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2009, 01:06:22 PM »

Peter,

I think what he is saying that if you're using Airmail with WL2K, you don't need the internet to send and receive email...IF...you have the capability of using the HF features of Airmail.  If you have this capability (and you should) you are not internet-dependent.  Now if you are only using the telnet module..yes, you have a problem, but you shouldn't be depending on telnet alone.

The following is from the WINLINK.ORG website:

How Winlink 2000 Accommodates Loss of Internet

By Vic Poor, W5SMM, AAA9WL
February 13, 2008


There seems to be confusion has to how WL2K deals with the loss of Internet. Let me address this question and see if I can bring a little clarity to it.

As presently designed and deployed, the assumption is made that Internet may fail regionally but not globally. A disaster may take out the Internet infrastructure over an area of as much as several states or a single country but not the entire world.

If Internet fails in a given region those RMS sites that implement RMS Relay in the region will be able continue to exchange traffic locally on VHF and globally on HF. RMS Relay will provide the ability to reach WL2K stations on HF that are in areas where Internet is still functional and can still reach a CMS site. CMS sites are purposely geographically dispersed (Australia, Canada, U.S.) to provide the greatest possible redundancy.

Individual HF client stations using Paclink or AirMail will continue to be able to exchange traffic with out-of-region HF stations that can still reach any one of the CMS sites.

The whole idea is to keep users and the network entirely connected even when even large areas become isolated due to loss of Internet. The WL2K addressing would remain functional and anyone that can reach any functional HF or VHF port can exchange messages with anyone else anywhere in the system without thought about how it is routed.

It is argued by some that we should build a system to support total global failure of Internet. Army MARS has in fact plans to implement just such a system using HF accessible and interconnected CMS sites. I do not know the timetable for this implementation, but meanwhile the system outlined in the Winlink 2000 Roadmap document is currently being implemented, and will support any disaster scenario experienced to date.

An all-HF system, no matter how implemented, will have bandwidth and latency limitations that constrain its value. Served agencies need (and expect) a communications service will be able to handle a reasonable volume of complex traffic with good speed. To that end we need to provide a service that will make use of the best and fastest means available at any given time.

The WL2K mission is to provide, through a volunteer network, effective last resort communications in civil emergencies and personal communications in non-emergency conditions.
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N3ZH

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2009, 03:43:50 PM »

I have concluded I can not work and also be in Army Mars.

I can handle one-time requirements that I do at my leisure - like on-line courses.  General license?  I already have Extra.  The 4 fema courses - I already did them 2 years ago, but did them again in case something changed.

It is all the new ongoing requirements:

1. The annual 12 weeks of Mars101 with on the air participation and final exam.  I can not assure I will be available those 12 consecutive weeks every year.  That's also 3 months out of every year I can't go on vacation or be sick.

2. Participate in an emergency exercise every quarter.  I suppose that means there will be one each quarter, and I can't guarantee I will be available to participate given my work hours, regular days off, and the possibility of mandatory overtime.  I may be out of town, on vacation - or working overtime - during that one exercise needed to stay in Mars.

3. Be NCS once per quarter - well this one is not a problem.

When I leave Army Mars, I was going to join Navy.

Without Navy Mars I'll need to wait for retirement to be in Mars again - and join the other retirees.

Mars is being ruined.  People are being forced out - including good people.  In one state over 50% have left Army Mars.  It now belongs to the over 65 retired folks who have time for a full-time-mars-job,  if they have enough smarts left to pass the fema courses and tests.  Army mars is going to be a small fraction of what they once were.

Army mars may not be able to deploy at all - due to age of their members.  Your not going to get the 60+ people to go into a Katrina.  It is ironic that all the changes are to be able to deploy and the changes may leave them with nobody who can deploy.

Army mars is already kaput.

I am waiting to see if Navy Mars also becomes kaput.

I hope Navy Mars survives.
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CURIOUSHAM

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2009, 04:11:06 PM »

hmmm.  It seems that there is no one named Howard (from Maryland) on the Region 3 Army MARS roster...so, I guess you already quit.

Also, your anecdotal "info" about 50% of the Army MARS ops in "one state" leaving doesn't check out either..it must have been your 'state' of mind!

MARS requires a committment, but it isn't as bad as you have made it sound.  Sounds like it isn't for you.
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N3ZH

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2009, 05:08:18 AM »

My job function at work has changed, and thus I expect to lose my customer call sign in the near future.

When that happens, I guess I need to go back to the Ham bands.  Army Mars demands too much from those who have a job.  It really hurts seeing Army decimate Mars - but I'll stop thinking about it after I stop attending the nets.

Maybe Navy will survive, and I'll join them.

I saw typed on an Olivia net - half the Pennsylvania members quit earlier this year.

Howard
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