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Author Topic: Navy MARS kaput?  (Read 75065 times)

KB9ZB

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2009, 05:02:09 AM »

The main problem we have always had in the past was three MARS programs. We never had a MARS program but rather three chiefs running MARS fiefdoms. Sad to say but I spoke out about his years ago and we were told basically to shut up, as it will NEVER happen. Now we are at a crossroads, we must be a cohesive unit to survive, it will n longer be us VS them. For us to continue the proud tradition of serving those who serve we must band together and fight as one. The integration process that has taken place was driven by mandate, not by choice. Yes the ARM folks hated it, yes the NAVY folks hated it and even the Air Force folks did not like the changes, we all had major changes in all areas of MARS. I can tell you this, way too many Navy folks just hate this new format, we were told it was a compromise to the ARMY, and you were told Navy and so on. In the end it was an ACP-125 issue that all of us had to follow. We tin the navy MARS program were not in total compliance with this, and I believe the ARMY was not either. I don’t think any of us were totally aware of the ramifications.

   We will not go back to “the good old day” as they are gone, we will move forward. In one way or another we will move forward, now we will determine the path. The outcomes that will happen will be dictated by the choices we make now.

Ron
NNN0VAG
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KD4NUE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2009, 08:40:39 AM »

"The Standard Voice SOP was not based on Navy-Marine
Corps MARS procedures, but the ACP-125 that all
nations use for joint communications. "

The 12 page Tri-Service SOP was in fact based on the information presented in ACP-125F.  

However, there was a 55 page document produced that was derived and condensed down from  ACP-125F.

It was crafted in such a way that it would have applied to the 3 MARS services in Voice Operations.

However, it was dictated to be cut to 12 pages, since that is what Navy dedicated to the voice training portion of their training materials.

******************************

" I can tell you this, way too many Navy folks just hate this new format, we were told it was a compromise to the ARMY, and you were told Navy and so on. In the end it was an ACP-125 issue that all of us had to follow. We tin the navy MARS program were not in total compliance with this, and I believe the ARMY was not either. I don’t think any of us were totally aware of the ramifications"

*****************************************

ACP-125f is the requirement for a guideline for voice operations - I will agree to this

It is the closest substitution for experience in voice operations that could be found in printed form, and was used as a referernce to cut experienced operators out of the loop in the formation of a Tri-Service SOP.

A universal on-sides punt, which Navy recovered and condensed to 12 pages to meet their specifications.  

The result was the loss of the Voice Operations for the 3 services.

Army was very willing to use the 55 page condensed version of ACP-125F that would have been usable in voice operations for Net Operations, and adaptable to actual event.

Army was already using voice procedures that would be the same in an actual event prior to the Tri-Service SOP coming out and removing that possibility as an option for the future.

I can't attest to Air Force.  

FWIW, The AF Voice Net Manager has resigned recently due to bad health.  

I was a part time NCS for the Transcon Net on loan from Army, and can personally relate to the way TCON was called in relation to the ACP.  

Fortunately, the tri-service ACP Voice Net procedures didn't apply to what Air Force via TRANSCON was doing either.

ACP-125F makes these asumptions:

-A Multi-National force should have the same procedures

-their operating spectrum is "owned 24 hours a day, seven days a year; not on an hourly basis

-A high probability exists that many "sub-nets" will be in operation at the same time on the same frequency

-Each subnet must be uniquely indentifiable without compromising OPSEC

-Full Calls of Tactical Call Signs are mandated for this reason.  

BUT, when the tatical call sign  is MAINSAIL, it just doesn't matter is you use the full call sign(MAINSAIL), or the Abbreviated Call Sign (MAINSAIL).

We finally progressed to the point where the McDonalds of Net Operations was able to ask us "Do you want fries with those fries?"

I personally failed to see the humor.

The operational conditions outlined in ACP-125F are very much separated in reality from Voice Net operations in use by the Tri-Services; for good reason.....  They are 2 different things.

When our authors found out that there was legitimacy in the claim that full call signs on check ins were a source of confusion, a waste of time in getting a working net, and dangerous to life and property in an actual event - They chose the only path they felt available - Decided to remove the listing of any traffic on check in and removced the call for emergency and priority traffice at the beginning of net operations.  These procedures were deleted to offset the time lost by requiring full call signs on net check ins - because the ACP-125F dictates full call signs.

Folks, did anyone else just see the baby flying through the air with the bathwater??

Use of full call signs is fine when your brand uses the same prefix for all, don't use phonetics on the prefix, and all are members of region zero, leaving identification of resources in an event completely off the table.  

Abbreviated call signs are also used in one branch..  

Only one branch sees no need in compying weith FEMA region designators in the call sign.

As far as I know, only one branch attempts to provide policy to GOD 6 days a week....

Air Force just went through the strain of coming up to FEMA compliance with nearly all of their call signs being re-assigned to proper FEMA Region numbers.

Both Army and Air Force have made strong efforts to utilize a Voice SOP that condensed (hacked) to meet Navy's specifications, and there is a large difference between a net that lasts 58 minutes per hour to maintain a state of readiness and one that last just long enough to get check ins and move a net report by voice.

We're talking 8 to 15 minutes here, the remaining 45 are wasted use of valuable spectrum.

"The outcomes that will happen will be dictated by the choices we make now. "

Unfortunately, if the choices had been left up to the experienced voice operators, we wouldn't be at this cross roads.

Other than a little sibling rivalry, I don't think any Navy Voice Op would have agreed to the verbage of the Tri-Service SOP, knowing the toll it would take on the ability of the 3 services to serve any usefiul purpose if called upon in an actual event.

I guess the operation was a success; but it is too bad the patient died....

I do not place blame on any individual Navy member, nor do I assign it to the group of Navy Voice Ops as a whole.  However, when you chose to defend something, you should be aware of what you are defending.  

There is enough blame to go around in this debacle, but, if you carefully review the before and after, do the research, see the results, you will see that the Navy negotiator had a much larger share, than those of Air Force or Army.

I don't know if Army lost out due to the inexperience of a negotiator (whom I don't remember having ever called a net in my time in Army MARS), I don't know if he was even present on the negotiations, or if it was a matter of the volume on his part of the conference calls being muted during the formation of the Tri-Service SOP ...

But the outcome is now the reality.

It is what it is.......


David
KD4NUE
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CURIOUSHAM

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »

W7TUT wrote:

And "CURIUSHAM", its "Request to Close Down", OVER

----------------------

No, I wasn't requesting to close down.  Since I opened the net as NCS, I was closing it.

You guys just keep making my point (and you still can't spell).  


LOL!!!!
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K7VV

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2009, 09:14:07 AM »

I dunno guys.

We can't keep trashing each other's group and get anywhere.

Can't say I care much what the voice procedure is (or what any procedure is, for that matter) as long as it works and we all do it the same way.

The solution is pretty clearly to have a unitary MARS, without service identification and without different call sign format, and with a common doctrine and SOP's.
 
In short,
quick ur bitch'n and get back to work.

To quote Ben Franklin, if we don't hang together we will most assuredly hang separately.
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KD4NUE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2009, 09:37:16 AM »

"Can't say I care much what the voice procedure is (or what any procedure is, for that matter) as long as it works and we all do it the same way. "


I think this is kind of precious.

After all, we are all doing it Navy way now; what else would you think?????


David
KD4NUE
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KD4NUE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2009, 10:10:02 AM »

"When our authors found out that there was legitimacy in the claim that full call signs [[[SHOULD BE FULL CALL PROCEDURE]]]] on check ins were a source of confusion, a waste of time in getting a working net, and dangerous to life and property in an actual event - They chose the only path they felt available - Decided to remove the listing of any traffic on check in and removced the call for emergency and priority traffice at the beginning of net operations. These procedures were deleted to offset the time lost by requiring full call signs [[[SHOULD BE FULL CALL PROCEDURE]]]] on net check ins - because the ACP-125F dictates full call signs [[[SHOULD BE FULL CALL PROCEDURE]]]]. "

Pre-emptive strike here....  Full Call Procedure should be substituted for the term "Full Call Signs" where bracketed in the quote above..

This is what happens when you use an external spell checker to try to provide a response that is as correct as you can make it.

For those still in confusion (due to the current training):

A Full Call Procedure is using the Full Call of the NCS, followed by your Full Call when checking into a HF Voice Net. ( You should also list Traffic, Early Close, etc..)

I wonder if this is what happened in the preparation of some of our training?

A FULL CALL SIGN is the complete phonetic representation of your assigned call sign, without dropping the prefix, requires speaking the prefix phonetically and (more accurately) not dropping all before the letter preceeeding the region designator.

Since all Navy Members live in Region Zero, and all have the same NNN prefix (which is not spoken phonetically), there was no concern when Full Call Procedure was required on check in.

Let me make this correction before the substitution of Full Call Sign for Full Call Procedure is used to rebuke everything else.

In the interest of pre-empting peripheral snipers.

David
KD4NUE

 
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K3WVU

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2009, 04:24:54 PM »

To K7VV:

Sorry to hear you're being leaned on to resign for expressing your opinion. To quote Chief Army MARS from a recent message:

 "Let me state here and now, Army MARS will welcome all N-MC MARS members in good standing into Army MARS to continue to serve America."

So, don't resign...just send your transfer application to your State Army MARS Director, and that way, you won't have a break in service.  Alas, you'll still have to go through your training period, but I'm sure you'd have no problem removing that Tango in short order.

73

Dwight
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K7VV

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2009, 06:55:13 PM »

Thanks Dwight, that's just what I'm in the process of doing; just changing from Navy blue to Army green.

David,
I don't know how else to say this.  I don't care whose or what procedures the voice nets use.  Army, Navy, Air Force, little green men or anything else that suits your fancy.  Let's just have one procedure, I don't care what it is.
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WA3MEJ

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #68 on: May 25, 2009, 06:16:10 PM »

Howard,

  Last I heard this requirement for the 12 week 101 course was NOT leveled at you anyhow.. you have one of those special calls that do not have to make the 15 hrs per quarter or the 1 NCS per quarter or any of the other things that the rest of us have to contend with.  I would love to have a cush gig like that.  

Regarding the 60 + stuff.. be careful what you put into writing it might just come back to haunt you.. because you too will get there one day bub..  

Besides I bet I can keep up with you in the field almost any day.. and many of the others.. and I AM 60

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W4JLE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #69 on: May 25, 2009, 09:28:35 PM »

No Navy Mars is not "shutting down". Only the paid positions are being eliminated under worse case conditions. This means the Area directors will be eliminated. This is nothing new, for example in central area ASG ONE run the show for years.
It also means that Chief Navy Mars will loose his funds for travel etc.
Navy mars will continue as an all volunteer service.
73
Fred W4JLE/NNN0AAG/NNN0GBS/NNN0ASG EIGHT
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N3ZH

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #70 on: May 26, 2009, 03:57:30 AM »

Yes Jim,

You are right - I am exempt from all the training, participation, and reporting requirements.

Unfortunately my job function has changed at work, and I expect to lose the customer callsign and then lose contact with all my Army Mars friends.  I don't know if it will happen tomorrow or next year.  But it makes sense that it will happen.

So I am looking at the next step.  If I join Army Mars as a regular member, eventually I'll get kicked out for non participation.  Maybe the Mars101 final exam will be on a day that I can't get annual leave approved.  Maybe the quarterly emergency exercise will occur on a day or hours when I can not participate.

This new Army Mars requires members for the first time to be on the air on a particular day&time, and even to come take a test in person on a particular day&time.  Miss it and you're out.  This may not be possible for some members depending on their work obligations.

My plan had been to join Navy Mars and participate in both Navy and Army nets.  I like all the different digital modes Army uses.  I think Navy still has the simple 9 hours per quarter participation requirements.  I actually have the Navy application form all filled out sitting on my desk - but Navy Mars' existence is now in jeopardy.  So the news of Navy Mars' imminent "sunsetting" was disappointing.

Maybe instead Ares/Races is in my future?

Yes, perhaps the 60+ comments - well I'm 50 now and eventually will be 60+.  Both my parents are still alive (good genes) but for many years now they constantly need doctor visits, medicines, medical attention, and occasional stays in a hospital.  My mother just recently had to start dialysis.  At some point as we age we will frequently need the talents of modern medical science to help keep us above ground.  At some point we won't want to rough it in a Katrina-like deployment.

It is a little strange participating in Mars, yet not being a real member, and knowing the end is coming, but not knowing when, and not having a planned path to follow.

Maybe I just worry too much about things which have not happened yet.

Howard
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K3WVU

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #71 on: May 26, 2009, 07:12:43 AM »

>>>>So I am looking at the next step. If I join Army Mars as a regular member, eventually I'll get kicked out for non participation. Maybe the Mars101 final exam will be on a day that I can't get annual leave approved. Maybe the quarterly emergency exercise will occur on a day or hours when I can not participate.

This new Army Mars requires members for the first time to be on the air on a particular day&time, and even to come take a test in person on a particular day&time. Miss it and you're out. This may not be possible for some members depending on their work obligations.<<<<

Howard,

In reading your comments above, you're wildly misinformed as to the nature of the training, or else you're just spreading BS.  You won't be told to show up on a certain day to take the test.  The test is being sent out, and you would have around two weeks or so to take it and send it back.  Also, you are not required to be on the air "at a particular date and time" to participate in training.  The MARS 101 training is sent out one unit per week.  Members are given 2-3 days to read the unit and then the training is conducted on 2-3 nets per weekday for the next week.  You need to read the material and then participate in at least one of the training nets in the ensuing week.  That's hardly a draconian training schedule.  Most of our members work and they are able to participate easily.
I noticed an earlier comment on 50% of PA members resigning.  That is also untrue.  There were a few members who were terminated for non-participation, and they hadn't participated prior to the 101 training began.  
I really think you shouldn't be on Eham spreading false information about Army MARS.  That could get you terminated for misconduct. If you have questions about MARS training, you need to contact your State Director or Training Officer instead of coming here spreading rumors.
In my opinion, if I had your concerns about my ability to participate in MARS, I wouldn't belong.  Your job and family come first.  Frankly, although you can get by on "minimum participation" in any of the MARS services, that is really not in the spirit of belonging.  MARS membership is more that wearing the patch.  You have to be active to be an effective member, and be of any use when and if the time comes when MARS is needed to accomplish its mission.
I can't tell you what to do, but you need to take a long look at your situation and decide whether you have the time to devote being an effective member of Army, Navy or Air Force MARS.  Just having your name on the roster without getting involved isn't what service is all about.

73

Dwight

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KD4NUE

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #72 on: May 26, 2009, 07:23:20 AM »

Howard,

Most of what you are concerned about is addressed in Unit 12.

Testing procedure , the duration of the testing period etc. ae defined.

In a slight preview, the test is open book, completed at the member's own schedule over a period that I believe approaches 15 days time to complete.

The intro to the MARS 101 regiment clearly outlined how nets would be spread across a time period to eliminate what you describe as an impediment to member participation..  Make up nets have been scheduled above and beyond the regular ones.

There are multiple nets scheduled per day.  Some prior to work and some after working hours.

If you are an agency station, it is a part of your work that the station is maintained and operated on a regular basis.  If you don't have a station at home, you don't qualify - so this is a non-starter.

Army, Navy ARES or RACES...  Makes no difference.  All require committment, need members with a CanDo attitude, and not those that talk themselves out of supporting the mission before the mission occurs.

If a member chooses not to participate, after approximately 30 weeks (the 2 cycles of MARS 101), the Chief will thank you for you past service, and suggest another endeavor.  

Recapping: two 12-week course runs, 2 weeks to complete an open book test in the comfort of your own home, multiple nets scheduled to insure access prior to work, during the day and after week so as not to exclude any member, no one will be forced to depoly.

All that is required is a committment to return something in exchange for the freedoms you enjoy.  The rest is up to you.

I am in my upper 50's.  My Mother is a live-In at 81 yrs old with RA.  The past week has found her in the hospital as a result of a Stroke, and test revealed also a Heart Attack.  My Mother-in-Law lived with us also, unitl she was admitted to a Nursing Home.  She may also return home.  Aging and care for loved ones are both a part of life, and no one is excluded; no matter how hard they grunt, hold their breath, lament, etc...

Every member is not required to deploy.

Living on the Atlantic coast in Georgia, I may have to evacuate my family, prior to returning to assist in operating the County EOC station at the 911 center, but I do this for self preservation, not out of a requirement to deploy.

Yes, the end is near.  We start the process of dying when whe take the first breath out of the womb.  What you leave behind after you rapture out of here is what you accomplished in your lifetime.

Stop fretting; start accomplishing.

Whichever route you take, I wish you well.

David
KD4NUE




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N3ZH

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #73 on: May 26, 2009, 08:44:58 AM »

I'm sorry if I am spreading incorrect information.  I just don't understand what happened.

Well, I'm sure that when Mars101 started I heard in a voice net - the training officer said there would be a mandatory in person meeting for testing.  Maybe I got it wrong?  Maybe things changed?  In any case, that sounds much better - half my concerns are gone.

I heard on an olivia net after Mars101 started that PA lost half their members, and another estimated 1/3rd would leave nation wide over all the new requirements.  These were high level mars members based on their callsigns.  Maybe I got it wrong?  didn't understand the context?  I don't know.  It's good to hear I got it wrong.

At a meeting at MEMA I watched a presentation that among other things covered the new participation requirements which included participating in one emergency exercise each quarter including filing an after action report.  Don't do it - then you're out for non-participation.  That's the other half of my concern - that I'll miss this net and be kicked out (should I become a regular Army mars member)

You know what?
Everything I remember hearing on a net seems to be false.  And I'm spreading false information and making people feel bad.  I am 50 years old - maybe my memory is like swiss cheese?  Maybe I need a high dose of Ginkgo Biloba?  How am I to ever pass traffic accurately in a genuine incident if everything I think I heard is wrong?  I suppose I just can't be a Mars member in any capacity - I'm just not capable.  Maybe I have alzheimers or dementia - I'll go check with a doctor.

I'll stop adding to this thread and just wish you all good successful Mars year.

My apologies,
Howard
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K3WVU

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Navy MARS kaput?
« Reply #74 on: May 26, 2009, 11:19:30 AM »

Howard wrote:

>>>>Well, I'm sure that when Mars101 started I heard in a voice net - the training officer said there would be a mandatory in person meeting for testing. Maybe I got it wrong? Maybe things changed? In any case, that sounds much better - half my concerns are gone.

I heard on an olivia net after Mars101 started that PA lost half their members, and another estimated 1/3rd would leave nation wide over all the new requirements. These were high level mars members based on their callsigns. Maybe I got it wrong? didn't understand the context? I don't know. It's good to hear I got it wrong.

At a meeting at MEMA I watched a presentation that among other things covered the new participation requirements which included participating in one emergency exercise each quarter including filing an after action report. Don't do it - then you're out for non-participation. That's the other half of my concern - that I'll miss this net and be kicked out (should I become a regular Army mars member)

You know what?
Everything I remember hearing on a net seems to be false. And I'm spreading false information and making people feel bad. I am 50 years old - maybe my memory is like swiss cheese? Maybe I need a high dose of Ginkgo Biloba? How am I to ever pass traffic accurately in a genuine incident if everything I think I heard is wrong? I suppose I just can't be a Mars member in any capacity - I'm just not capable. Maybe I have alzheimers or dementia - I'll go check with a doctor.<<<<<<

__________________________________

No Howard, you're not going bananas. You probably heard a lot of scuttlebutt when the changes started, and yes, maybe some of this came from staff members who should have known better.  Fact is, there was some consternation on the part of some members that was expressed on the nets when MARS 101 was first announced, but there was no mass exodus and none is expected.  I expect that whoever spread the bad info about all of the "people leaving" was just saying that to reinforce their own fears about what was happening. This is natural when change occurs.  I heard a lot of people who insinuated that they might hang it up because they thought the requirements were more than they could handle. There was also speculation that a bunch of people would quit, but it was nothing more than speculation.
Once the facts came out, guess what happened?  The fear and consternation went away, and the speculation was proven wrong.  Army ops seem to be enjoying the training, and the training discussions have been lively and enjoyable and participation levels have been high.  For the few who haven't completed all of the units of MARS 101 training, there is going to be another round starting in July.  The only people who will be separated from MARS will be those who have made no effort to complete the training.
As far as the emergency exercise is concerned, if something comes up such as an illness or family problem, and you're not able to participate, then no one is going to throw you out of MARS.  It is the pattern of your participation that will matter.  If you make a sincere effort to meet your participation requirements and work with the training officer, no one will toss you out.  The After Action Report is a short report that you put on WINLINK or email after the exercise...again, no big deal.

The lesson here, Howard, is to NOT believe rumors, regardless of the source.  One main reason for that is that most people who start or perpetuate rumors usually have an agenda.  Yes, you got a lot of bad information.  I noticed that much of your info was prefaced with "I heard" or "someone said", etc.. Also, many times when we're presented with change, our minds tend to pick out and amplify all of the bad stuff and filter out the facts (we tend to hear what we want to hear).

Again, Howard, the facts have been presented in the past few posts.  The training requirements are not as bad as some have said.  MARS is a volunteer organization, and it's up to each member to decide whether or not they have the time to participate and what level of participation they can handle.

It is my opinion that just meeting the absolute on-air minimum participation requirements does not qualify a member for being a useful part of the MARS mission.  If you can't check into a net properly, send and receive traffic, perform net control duties or prepare messages, and be able to do all this under stressful conditions, you're not much good to anyone, and I don't think you can become proficient at all this with a few hours a month. On the other hand, checking into every available net and overloading yourself with MARS duties isn't good either.

If you belong to MARS and you get to the point where your personal responsibilities leave no time for MARS, then you can resign, and no one would think less of you for it.  It is far worse to join and to struggle to do the absolute minimum to maintain membership.  What would be the point?

Finally, I'll say again that you have to make a decision about whether you can be a useful part of MARS or any other organization that requires participation.  If you think it's going to be too demanding, then you owe it to yourself and MARS to opt out.


Take care and 73,

Dwight



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