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Author Topic: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?  (Read 13842 times)

K0RGR

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RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 01:35:35 PM »

The first question needs to be "Are any ARES groups planning to use the Internet for emergency communications?".  My answer would be 'none that I know of'.

Now, to backpedal a bit, there are people using WINLINK. WINLINK can operate without the Internet, if the correct pieces are in place, to do local routing of emails. But, most WINLINK setups I've read about are designed to direct the email traffic outside a disaster area to servers located where the Internet is still working. There are multiple, redundant servers that can be used for that purpose.

Still, that is infrastructure, and while it's nice to have some of that available, the most critical emergency communications will be needed in the first hours of a disaster, and will likely be tactical in nature. Voice is probably the preferred mode, but there are situations that definitely call for data comms, too, and WINLINK offers some major advantages for that. It's not encrypted but it's not man-readable, either, so it does have some security advantages over other digital tools that we have.

You need to use the BEST tool you have available. If all that's needed is a short hop to the nearest working Internet connection, it's nice to be able to use it.

A way to separate these things, but have them available for disasters is to use WINLINK for NTS and use more tactical things for ARES, but have ARES use NTS for traffic handling outside the disaster area. ARES folks should know how to use NTS, and vice-versa. And, they should know how to pass traffic by voice or CW if WINLINK doesn't work.

Around here, we're using  voice and NBEMS for ARES, and working on getting WINLINK up and running for NTS.
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KC0SHZ

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RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2012, 04:59:17 PM »

Most of the disasters in my area are very intense and localized.  A tornado may blow up a subdivision, but the rest of the city is intact.  Our worst storm in the past 10 years was an ice storm that wiped out electricity for about 60% of the city for a week.

If 60% of the city is without power, 40% is still working.  If ARES has a multi-node structure for it's comm needs then an EOC may be in the tornado destruction and be tiny little shards of radio now, but the other nodes out side the zone will be able to access internet-based resources (such as the health and welfare page of the Salvation Army) and utilize them.

If you base your total comm functionality on Dstar or Winlink then you are boned in the case of a downed EOC or repeater site.  If you use this as a means of communicating, but not the ONLY means, then it may help the remaining node(s) be more functional as the rest of the area or country will continue to use the internet for their basic communication needs.
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KK4GMU

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2021, 06:01:13 PM »

Now, nearly 10 years later, on this same topic, I believe things concerning the reliability of the internet have changed a bit.

A couple of fairly recent types of potential emergencies come to mind: A directed energy attack or cyber attack against either the electric grid or the internet infrastructure. 

Much has been written about this over the past few years.  And we have experienced a numerous cyber attacks against various segments of the internet - mostly ransomware attacks up till now.  But the capabilities for much wider damage from a broad variety of sources is growing.

If hostilities break out between the US and any number of other capable nations, whether China, Iran, Russia or North Korea, or by rogue actors, we should expect the above types of attacks.

My take on the comparison of simplex radio and the internet for emergency coms is this:  The more complex the system/infrastructure, the more vulnerable it becomes.

Heck, I even understand that Russia maintains, by design, a relatively robust vacuum tube technology within its military to avoid the extreme sensitivity of micro-circuits to EMP.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 06:09:45 PM by KK4GMU »
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IC-7100, RSPdx, AT-D878UVII-Plus HT, TGIF Spot

N8AUC

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2021, 08:06:01 PM »

The answer to the first question, are ARES groups relying to heavily on the internet?

I'd say yes. DMR, Fusion, D-Star, all of that, to communicate any great distance relies on the internet to do the heavy lifting. Now with that being said, all of those digital voice modes will work just fine without the internet. You just can't communicate much beyond the range of your local repeater. If all you've got is an HT and you're relying on internet linked repeaters, you're going to not be terribly effective for very long.

Is that a problem? Maybe yes, and maybe no. The internet itself, the core routers and servers, isn't likely to go down, and if it ever does, we've probably got bigger problems to deal with. When people say "the internet is down", what's usually the case is that their local on-ramp to the internet is down, which to an end user has the same effect. In that scenario, using Winlink to route email outside of the affected area to a place where the local on-ramp isn't broken will certainly get the job done.

For preparedness purposes, as a former EC and DEC, I'd recommend that ARES groups should be practicing VHF simplex, HF NVIS operation, and providing (and regularly testing) backup power for their stations. I can talk to my county EOC (and a few adjacent counties) on 2 meter simplex (analog or digital voice). I can talk directly to the state EOC 130 miles away just fine on 40 or 75 meters using NVIS propagation, not to mention state EOCs in several adjacent states. And I can pass digital traffic to all those locations using those modes as well, with or without commercial power being available.

ARES members should also know how to program their radios by hand, without the use of a computer.

Any computer you intend to rely on for operating digital modes, should be kept isolated from any access to the internet.

Bottom line, ARES members should have multiple tools in their toolbox, and be trained to use the right tool for the right job, depending on the circumstances.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
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GRUMPY2021

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2021, 11:51:00 PM »

Around here if it's any deeper than "short time no comment" then we're screwed.   


ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem.
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KT4WO

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2021, 12:48:36 AM »

"ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem."

You can now add SHARES and AUXCOM to that list.
They are the "new" ARES.
Ohhh.... and "Bayfunk" and Winlink will save the world.
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WW5F

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2021, 05:09:07 AM »

If you're not practicing "worst case scenario" (I.E. without any other forms of communication outside of the radio you have in your hand or sitting on your desk), then you're setting yourself up for failure.

It's ok to have a computer connected to your radio, but if you're not practicing "setting up" without an internet connection first and without a cell phone, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Once the "comm network" is initially set up, running and successfully passing traffic, THEN, it's ok to use the internet.  If you're not doing this, you're setting yourself up for failure.

As an Air Force "comm guy", I see a lot of future failure that's going to happen when the "IT" hits the fan based on what I've seen in the ham community these days.

I see my MY internet connection getting progressively less reliable these days.
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WW5F

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 05:32:10 AM »

Most people don't realize how delicate our communications infrastructure is.  A couple of strategically placed "air burst" EMFs over the U.S. and the "IT" will be flying.

Anybody watching the news on recent capabilities being tested by other countries these days?

The "night the lights went out in Baghdad," the first explosion was the AT&T building in downtown Baghdad.  Communications is always at the top, or near the top of the Air Tasking Order.

If your group doesn't have a point of contact TODAY with your local EMS services (i.e. your local 911 call center) and are not already in their "emergency plan" and showing up at their regularly scheduled meetings (probably annually) when they're reviewing it, and participating with them when ever they have "exercises" in some form or fashion, then when the "IT" hits the fan and you show up and say you're there to help, it'll be too late.  They'll be implementing their current plan and there will be no time to add you to it.  They'll politely say, "Thanks, we'll call you if we need you, please get out of here, you're in our way right now."

All EMS use their "emergency comm system" every day in their normal duties.  And many state EMS agencies have backup plans if the primary goes down.  And some state EMS comm systems are getting pretty robust these days.
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KD2HCU

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2021, 06:38:17 AM »

Using a computer and using the internet can be two totally different things.  While some modes use a radio to access the internet, many others use a computer to access the radio.  DMR may be fun, I like it but it releys on the net.  Many digital modes just use the computer to interface with the radio as a sort of translator.  We gotta use whatever works at the time.
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KK4GMU

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2021, 06:58:06 AM »

We gotta use whatever works at the time.
And be prepared to use/integrate the most basic, lowest tech tools available.  They will be the least susceptible to failure may be the most reliable.
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K3XR

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 03:03:37 PM »

I recall just after 9-11 much discussion about the lack intercommunication between emergency services at different levels and the same level in many instances.  I suppose some time spent in research might reveal the current state of affairs but I just wonder where all that has led some 20 plus years later.  When you discuss emergency communications ham radio may have a place. When dealing with the emergency services effective communications is essential.  From a safety standpoint I find the digital voice modes used by emergency services to be less than adequate.  An example that comes to mind results from listening to the State Police on the Pa Turnpike on a rebroadcast channel where you can hear the troopers audio go "digital".  The safety of the officer is of the upmost importance and there is absolutely no excuse for anything less than reliable communications at all times.
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WW5F

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W1VT

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2021, 06:56:51 AM »

https://www.arednmesh.org/
Amateur Radio Emergency Data Network
Group Mission
To provide the Amateur Radio Community with a quality solution for supporting the needs of high speed data in the Amateur Radio and Emergency Communications field.

 
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KC3ECJ

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2021, 11:34:05 AM »

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43328/u-s-satellites-are-being-attacked-everyday-according-to-space-force-general

How many "seconds to midnight" are we at again these days?

I know there are radios that have some settings to tune the audio, but I find that the vocoder used in DMR for example does a bad job handling higher pitched voices.
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K4PIH

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2022, 06:00:50 PM »

"ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem."

You can now add SHARES and AUXCOM to that list.
They are the "new" ARES.
Ohhh.... and "Bayfunk" and Winlink will save the world.

SHARES is not the new ARES, RACES, CB, or plain old ham radio. SHARES performs a critical emergency communications function via HF radio and can operate without the internet. SHARES regularly conducts operations in radio-only mode and works in conjunction with FEMA and other federal agencies.
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