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Author Topic: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?  (Read 13840 times)

W9FIB

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2022, 03:40:12 AM »

There are 3 levels participation in any emergency.

1) Those that train for, drill on, and participate on a level that serves their area. Pouring coffee for victims or filling sandbags serves the communities. Radio is often the last thing needed, but yet your there to step away from the shovel and pick up a mic if needed. Thats prepared emergency service.

2) Those that show up with little or no training and expect to be the boss. The lit-up crown vic group. Or the group with 8 antennas mounted on a hard hat. Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.

3) Those that find excuses not to help and work to destroy anything good the first 2 can do. Just like some have done here.

Question is, which one are you?

Those unprepared or underprepared are the most likely to fail. Even if you prepare for yourself, you're in a far better position than those in 2 and 3.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB8VUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2022, 03:44:20 AM »

I really think we need to stop picking on DMR and other digital methods and be specific about the weak parts of it.
If you are on a DMR REPEATER that has a reasonable coverage area you still have that coverage area from that repeater.
If you are using a hotspot, your screwed if the Internet fails due to the fact a hotspot has no reasonable coverage area.

And this is NOT specific to digital modes either.  Echolink and other Internet based methods of linking analog repeaters will not work either.
I know my P25.link system is NOT gonna link if the Internet is down.  But With an antenna at 110 feet it has a reasonable coverage footprint and will still cover that area.  The site has a generator and battery plant so the repeater WILL stay on the air as long as the fuel holds and the sun shines or wind blows and charges the battery plant.  Beyond that... I will have more pressing issues to contend with than getting a repeater on the air.
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KG4RUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2022, 05:07:14 AM »

There are 3 levels participation in any emergency.

1) Those that train for, drill on, and participate on a level that serves their area. Pouring coffee for victims or filling sandbags serves the communities. Radio is often the last thing needed, but yet your there to step away from the shovel and pick up a mic if needed. Thats prepared emergency service.

2) Those that show up with little or no training and expect to be the boss. The lit-up crown vic group. Or the group with 8 antennas mounted on a hard hat. Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.

3) Those that find excuses not to help and work to destroy anything good the first 2 can do. Just like some have done here.

Question is, which one are you?

Those unprepared or underprepared are the most likely to fail. Even if you prepare for yourself, you're in a far better position than those in 2 and 3.

I have to agree - What I have found over the years is:
  • Not enough of number 1
  • A few of number 2
  • WAY TOO MANY of number 3
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KB8VUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2022, 08:47:41 PM »


 Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.


These are the folks that are a solution that's looking for a problem that no one has any more. 
And ultimately the reason I have little use of what ARES has turned into for the most part.
We are hobbyists of technology.  Sure it's sort of specifically radio, but there are things that can be done with 'radio' that don't involve talking on it. 
I have spelled out a number of things that we could be doing and preparing for on here that NEVER get any feedback.  Because they don't involve sitting on your butt rattling off your call sign into a radio, they aren't worth bothering with. 

And the 'going home' part... why even bother to show up? 
Here's the hard truth.  If you show up to a shelter similar site and they have you pouring coffee YOUR RADIO operator abilities ARE NOT NEEDED.  The part of this that blows my mind is that these folks will keep showing up and leave in a huff because they will be pouring coffee or some other mundane task that needs done that's not radio related. 

And these are the same folks that will drop a Disney vacation's cost into some box of radios they refer to as a 'GO KIT'. That never gets used when it does GO anywhere other than maybe field day. 

But I will go down the path of the 'It ain't my job' group and say this.  They are exactly right. 
Any time there is a mundane task to be performed, the people in the shelter that are getting free room and board could and should be doing that. 
Setting up beds, cooking, making coffee.  That is all stuff for people that are guests of someone else's hospitality should be taking care of. 
Not the guy that showed up to provide communications.  If no communications support is needed then the folks in charge need to send the ham operators on their way and NOT have them doing other things.  And here's why.  The folks that are in a shelter have no where else to go.  That's why they are in the shelter.  Any time you bring a bunch of people together you create a breeding ground for the transfer of any and all viruses and the like that come in the place.  MINIMIZING the total number of people in a shelter is ALWAYS the best policy. 
And I never seen an ARES member bring their own food and drink to ANY operations site, not a training, not a full on disaster, none of it. I am sure that some do, but I never seen it.  Which means that you are another mouth to feed from a limited food supply. 

So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out. 
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W9FIB

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2022, 04:22:25 AM »

So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB8VUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2022, 05:51:49 PM »

So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 
THe group to the west was made infamous by their stupidity with comments about keeping members in their assigned locations during a Public service operation by 'shooting them in the leg'.  Yes, this went out in an EMAIL which got forwarded to the Sheriff, City police dept, FBI, and the organization that put on the event.  Needless to say they are not doing that event any more.  So yeah, not a lot of choices for a group to get behind around here.  The tower I manage and maintain for another ham that's been discussed elsewhere on here has been slowly developing into a reasonably decent communications facility for ham radio and continues to grow in that regard. 
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W9FIB

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2022, 04:31:38 AM »

So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 
THe group to the west was made infamous by their stupidity with comments about keeping members in their assigned locations during a Public service operation by 'shooting them in the leg'.  Yes, this went out in an EMAIL which got forwarded to the Sheriff, City police dept, FBI, and the organization that put on the event.  Needless to say they are not doing that event any more.  So yeah, not a lot of choices for a group to get behind around here.  The tower I manage and maintain for another ham that's been discussed elsewhere on here has been slowly developing into a reasonably decent communications facility for ham radio and continues to grow in that regard.

Sounds great that you are doing what you can do. I applaud that and would even make that a challenge to other hams to do what they CAN do regardless of any bad organization that may be there.

I am lucky we have a good group here. Guess we have 1 thing that helps. The communications director at the Sherriff's department is also a ham. Our repeater antenna is on top of their tower rent free. And we work diligently to maintain our quality of service to the community as a whole. Yet we do it quietly. No vehicles with lights and sirens...the crown vic group I mentioned earlier.

Keep up your good work! Anything done to prepare is a plus in my opinion.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

N8AUC

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2022, 08:50:43 PM »

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

Exactly right.
Whether your county ARES group is good or not, depends on the EC,
the training the EC has taken, and the training he/she provides for their volunteers.
It definitely varies from location to location.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
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N8AUC

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2022, 09:02:48 PM »

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 

I don't even want to know why that guy thought he needed a light bar on his car.
I was an EC for 5 years, and never saw the need for that. Ever.


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KB8VUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2022, 05:23:01 AM »

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 

I don't even want to know why that guy thought he needed a light bar on his car.
I was an EC for 5 years, and never saw the need for that. Ever.

He was an EMT, the county EC and had 'search dogs'.  Car was a sold off city cruiser that was setup as a dog car.  Had the remote controlled rear doors that would let the dog out.  But he pretty much took a second red lens with him when he got the car and removed the blue lens.  As an EMT he was legal for a red bar.  Then he lettered the car almost the same as it was.  Put the 911 on it and all the rest.  The city had a 4 inch blue reflective stripe on their cars.  He replaced the stripe with blue reflective lettering "AMATEUR RADIO EMERGENCY SERVICES" down both sides of the car. 
This was the same guy that DEMANDED assignments from the EMA director when the county would do training exercises.  And ran the ARES group as if it were of new recruits and he was a Drill Sargent.   
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AC2EU

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2022, 08:11:30 AM »

Quote
So, a question I pose is this:  Is there excessive reliance newer technoligies that rely on the internet as support infrastructure?  Is there too little reliance on cultivating hams to participate in basic simplex or repeater operation to provide needed communication in a disaster or emergency situation?

YES

Also, reliance on incompatible proprietary technologies like Dstar and system Fusion should be eliminated.
The open source DMR project should be embraced as the standard. Interoperability is key in an emergency!

I never bought radios with either of the competing proprietary digital systems. I always thought it would lead to a mess and it it did. Ham radio was always traditionally "open source" and home brew anyway. Let's keep it that way!

KB8VUL

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2022, 07:31:26 PM »

Quote
So, a question I pose is this:  Is there excessive reliance newer technoligies that rely on the internet as support infrastructure?  Is there too little reliance on cultivating hams to participate in basic simplex or repeater operation to provide needed communication in a disaster or emergency situation?

YES

Also, reliance on incompatible proprietary technologies like Dstar and system Fusion should be eliminated.
The open source DMR project should be embraced as the standard. Interoperability is key in an emergency!

I never bought radios with either of the competing proprietary digital systems. I always thought it would lead to a mess and it it did. Ham radio was always traditionally "open source" and home brew anyway. Let's keep it that way!

Oh yeah,,, I am all for that idea.
And the DMR stuff needs to be configured in a manner that is resilient if you are using it for emergency comms. 
Sites really should support two bands, typically VHF and UHF, and be linked via WiFi and small panels or dishes and not ISP provided connections at least not in your area.  If a club has two or three towers they need to link those towers.  And cost on this stuff isn't all that bad.  Ubiquiti Bullets are really cheap and there are other equally good and inexpensive solutions out there for doing this. 

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K3XR

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2022, 06:40:15 AM »

One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 
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AC2EU

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2022, 07:54:13 AM »

One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 

Is it the militaristic terms or the paranoia that strikes you?

W9FIB

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Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2022, 03:30:15 AM »

One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 

I don't see what so special about a lot of what you quoted. Many are common terms used in engineering, some are opinion, some are more focused on working a plan like a business plan but with different goals.

Beats me what the fuss is.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.
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