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Author Topic: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies  (Read 93687 times)

KD4LLA

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2013, 07:39:56 PM »

"To my knowledge my radio can only be set up for two way cross band repeat. There aren't any menu settings for cross band operation. To get into cross band mode I select one frequency on one VFO, the other frequency on the other VFO, and then put it into cross band mode by restarting the radio and entering a special setup menu.

Also, there is no way that I know of to do what you're saying with CTCSS tones alone with my radio. I can set a CTCSS encode tone and a DCS decode tone, I think that would work but I can't set a different CTCSS tone for send and receive."


I have a 15 y/o FT-8100 and 20 y/o DJ-580 HT that will do 2-way or 1-way crossband, AND allow for separate encode/ decode CTCSS.

It is just a matter of programming the radios.  Read the manual that came w/ your radio.  Then read it again, s l o w l y, saying every word to yourself.  I used this technique at work a number of times went I was stumped with a problem.  My workmates used to call me "book smart"... cause I read so much.

Mike
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KN0JI

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2018, 11:50:13 AM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!
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AK4SK

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2018, 12:05:28 PM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!

I was concerned about this for a little while and then I just stopped worrying about it. Having to sit by the radio that is doing the repeating just to manually ID sort of defeats the purpose of cross band repeating, lol. If I was sitting by the radio I wouldn't need to repeat through it...I occasionally use my VHF/UHF base station cross band with my HT if I don't feel like being in the shack. I understand what the rule says but in practice I don't think its a problem. If every officially notified that my actions are causing an issue would comply and stop doing it.

Chris
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K4JJL

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 02:21:26 PM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!



Like anybody actually does that.
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KG4RUL

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 01:47:07 PM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!
Buy the Kenwood TMV71.  Does crossband, IDs in CW and can be controlled using DTMF tone sequences.

I was concerned about this for a little while and then I just stopped worrying about it. Having to sit by the radio that is doing the repeating just to manually ID sort of defeats the purpose of cross band repeating, lol. If I was sitting by the radio I wouldn't need to repeat through it...I occasionally use my VHF/UHF base station cross band with my HT if I don't feel like being in the shack. I understand what the rule says but in practice I don't think its a problem. If every officially notified that my actions are causing an issue would comply and stop doing it.

Chris
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KG4RUL

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 07:23:23 PM »

And the rules say don't drive at 100 MPH in a school zone.  So, if no one calls me on it, It should be O.K. for me to do it.
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N5KBP

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2018, 08:06:25 AM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!

I know you expected it so here it goes. I must disagree with you on this. Part 97-119a

"(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station."

Where does it state that the station cannot receive it's id from a remote source before it transmits it? The station is transmitting its id from it's location (read source) irregardless of where it gets that info from. Be it's built in memory or from it's receiver.
N5KBP
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KG4RUL

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2018, 10:02:50 AM »

Just an FYI for those of you thinking of putting up an XBR (cross-band repeater) in the near future. According to the rules (97.119a) each station must transmit its ID. That means the XBR, just like any other repeater, must transmit its ID. Simply saying your ID through the XBR input, expecting the XBR to transmit it on the other band will not satisfy the requirement. The XBR must transmit its ID, and out both bands. So far, I only know of two mobile (or any kind of) rigs that can transmit its ID: the Kenwood TM-V71A and Kenwood TM-D710G. For example, the Yaesu FT-8800R and FT-8900R both do XBR very well, but neither is able to transmit its ID every ten minutes, so you must stay by the XBR and transmit its ID manually every ten minutes. If you know of another that can transmit its ID every ten minutes, I'm all ears. Thanks!

I know you expected it so here it goes. I must disagree with you on this. Part 97-119a

"(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station."

Where does it state that the station cannot receive it's id from a remote source before it transmits it? The station is transmitting its id from it's location (read source) irregardless of where it gets that info from. Be it's built in memory or from it's receiver.
N5KBP


Agreed.  But, take this example.  You are accessing the radio on the UHF side and can ID your radio by transmitting something such as "This is N5KBP transmitting through the N5KBP crossband repeater".  The station you are talking to on the VHF side would have to send something like "This is KG4RUL transmitting through the N5KBP crossband repeater" and you have to count on them to do it at least once every 10 minutes.  That is why I like my TMV71A - It automatically sends a CW ID on both sides at the preset interval.
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KC8OYE

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2019, 03:30:58 PM »

I'm getting ready to do a presentation on XBR to our local club.. found this thread.. thought I would add my 2 cents.

the easiest way around the id rules, is don't do a two way crossband!!  depending on the capabilities of your radio, there are 3 ways to accomplish this...

Split PL's
Illegal TX freq
2m offset.

example repeater: 147.260+  with 100hz pl on tx and RX

split pl's works with an ICom 2800, and an Alinco DR635, but not a Yeasu FT8900 (radios Ive owned)
but it works like this:
HT:  listen on 147.260 with 100h pl (repeater output)  transmits on 445.500 with 123hz pl

Mobile: 440 side is set up simplex 445.500 with 123 hz pl.  2m side is setup for 147.860 simples with 132hz pl DEcide, and
 100hz ENcode.  this way, repeater output is not relayed, and should someone else be near by your mobile, their 2m tx won't key it up.

illegal TX:
HT:  listen on 147.260 with 100h pl (repeater output)  transmits on 445.500 with 123hz pl

Mobile:  445.500 123hz Rx, 451.000 TX. (illegal tx, won't tx if you are limited to ham freqs)  2m side: 147.860 100hz simplex.

2m offset:
HT:  listen on 147.260 with 100h pl (repeater output)  transmits on 445.500 with 123h pl

mobile: 445.000 123hz simplex.  2m:  147.860 100hz tx.  147.760 rx (132pl)   (just make sure it's an empty freq, and use odd ball PL or DCS just to be sure)

I use the illegal tx option with my FT8900 and split PL's with my DR635
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W9IQ

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2019, 04:06:23 PM »

Quote
I use the illegal tx option with my FT8900...

Sad and dishonorable. You are a true disservice to the amateur radio credo. I hope you don't promote this in your presentation.

Quote
the easiest way around the id rules, is don't do a two way crossband!!

The easiest way is don't go around the ID rules - use a radio that properly IDs!

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KD5GR

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2019, 03:47:34 PM »

Quote
I use the illegal tx option with my FT8900...

Sad and dishonorable. You are a true disservice to the amateur radio credo. I hope you don't promote this in your presentation.

Quote
the easiest way around the id rules, is don't do a two way crossband!!

The easiest way is don't go around the ID rules - use a radio that properly IDs!

- Glenn W9IQ
He stated that the radio would not transmit on the "illegal tx" frequency.  It appears he is using it as a placeholder.

Chas.
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W1BG

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2019, 11:47:23 AM »

A question on this topic that I have is how it relates to XBR operation where the UHF FM signal (repeater input) is being retransmitted (or cross-linked) onto one of the HF bands, say for example, 3.930 MHz, SSB

In my opinion this is a strict violation of FCC rules.

Of course our local self-anointed expert claims this is perfectly legal and furthermore that he does it all the time. (He's a big DMR nut) -  I say he's wrong because repeaters are not permitted on any ham frequency below specific segments of the 10 meter band. There is nothing ambiguous about that rule.

His counter-argument centers around the alleged presence of a "control operator" and what he claims to be 3rd-party traffic.  OK Fine, but then how does the ever-present and all-knowing "control operator" know that a station operating legally on the UHF repeater input might very well have only a Technician license?  Shouldn't the "control operator" then also be identifying this as 3rd-party traffic?   More specifically, exactly what is the control mechanism that brings the HF transmitter on the air?  Is it responding to the action of the 440 repeater being keyed-up by the 440 MHz user (in this case a Tech licensee????) - or is there a physical human operator of the HF rig manually performing the TX/RX transitions pursuant to the limits of his own license?   What happens then the 440 MHz Tech sends his call sign? Is it somehow prevented from being transmitted on 3.930 MHz?

Something doesn't smell right to me.

73 - Bill
W1BG


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The Pay-TV Industry may not hold the patent on poor customer service, but Comcast in particular has made an art form of it.

WB6BYU

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2019, 08:13:29 PM »

Actually there was an FCC decision some years ago that it was acceptable for Technicians to have
their signals retransmitted on other bands, because they were transmitting on frequencies for
which they were authorized.  One of the things that drove this was a 2m repeater linked to a
10m repeater.  In that case, when the Tech is transmitting on 2m, they are not the control
operator of the station that is transmitting on 10m.

The situation is different, however, for a remote base or cross-band repeater where the operator
is control operator for both their 2m station and for the linked transmitter on 10m.  Of course, in
either case, the repeater needs to ID itself with the callsign of the control operator who is licensed
for the output frequency.

I don't have a link to the decision handy, but I suspect it appears on the ARRL website somewhere
if one spent enough time searching for it.

W9IQ

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RE: Cross Band Repeater Rules and Frequencies
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 10:31:50 PM »

Dale is correct in his recollection. You cannot in any case operate a repeater below 10 meters. A repeater involves the automatic and simultaneous repeating of a transmission - quite independent of the presence or absence (automatic) of the control operator at a control point (local or remote).

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 10:42:58 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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