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Author Topic: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)  (Read 896075 times)

AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2014, 01:45:56 PM »

It would be interesting to be able to make the same tests at some homes in a different development that uses Eaton breakers. I'm wondering if some electrician mis-wired something in all the homes in your area as they were being built. According to some reading I've done, the AFCIs contain an imbedded microcontroller that monitors the current waveform looking for high-speed changes that result from an arcing connection. I expect this makes them susceptible to RF on the conductors unless they have ample filtering.

It might be interesting to run some tests on other bands like 40M and 10M.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2014, 01:46:10 PM »

What are the 44.3 and 44.6 tests? Hope they are stringent  enough.
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2014, 01:53:42 PM »

It might be interesting to run some tests on other bands like 40M and 10M.

Really doesn't matter, we know they are susceptible, even to wireless phones. Who would have thought that they would put DSP in our circuit breakers!
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KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2014, 03:19:27 AM »

Just think, every switching power supply in the home has an ability to distort AC wave form. CFLs too. Anything that has a current versus voltage plot that has a sudden change to high current at some voltage can distort the waveform peak.

This will be a can of worms.

KF7CG
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KL7CW

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2014, 09:49:41 AM »

Terry,
   If you have not done so, I would suggest you read my second May 24th post and verify that the black and white wires from each circuit are connected as a pair to an AFCI...do not mix white(neutral) wires from different circuits.  I know this is a long shot.....but it would be easy to verify next time you open up the breaker box.  Good luck and let us know the final solution to the problem.       Rick  KL7CW
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KD0REQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2014, 12:12:55 PM »

it sounds like Eaton is really trying.  give them credit.  if they'd send out a FSM, it would seal the deal that they're trying to fix this.  hope the one-offs they're sending settle things.

just for the record, which series of entrance panel do you have?  common residential panels are the BR (formerly Bryant division of Westinghouse) and the CR (Eaton Cutler Hammer original.)  both are good.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 12:16:44 PM by KD0REQ »
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2014, 01:48:32 PM »

Just got off the phone with Joe F. from Eaton.  He is sending me six HAM breakers with additional filtering to replace the ones that were tripping today. More on this when we get the new ones installed.

The six new breakers arrived today (May 29) just before noon. Replaced the old HAM breakers with the new ones with additional filtering. Ran tests on 40 Meters and 20 Meters both with 100 watts CW output to my Buddipole antenna in the back yard. The results were good, there was no tripping of the breakers with the additional filtering. This leads me to believe that the additional filtering in the AFCI's did the trick as the other HAM AFCI's without the additional filtering consistently tripped.  :)
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2014, 01:54:15 PM »

I'd throw as much RF on as many frequencies as I could in order to have a happy feeling about them. I'd put the antenna next to them and also use the wireless phone.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2014, 02:05:08 PM »

I'd throw as much RF on as many frequencies as I could in order to have a happy feeling about them. I'd put the antenna next to them and also use the wireless phone.

I'm going to configure the Buddipole for 17 Meters and try it.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2014, 03:13:52 PM »

Works great on 17 Meters :)
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2014, 04:38:11 PM »

After they get your house straightened out they need to replace your neighbors breakers as well.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

N9KTW

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2014, 08:53:25 PM »

Hey guys:

I happen to a "Cutler Hammer" breaker (Eaton) breaker box in the house. I added a circuit to the "shack" last fall and AFCI'd it. No nuisance tripping problems here, and I have a SWAN350 for HF, and the breaker box is on the other side of the wall from the "shack"

Being as I am in the Chicago area, the house is all steel conduit, and if not conduit, steel armored cable. Seems to make a pretty good shield. I am almost wondering IF the problem the original poster is having is the house wiring acting as an antenna possibly a "resonant one". I am a licensed electrician, and I know most of the country uses non metallic cable for residential work.  The suggestion of ferrites at the service panel MIGHT not be a bad idea, if the wiring is acting as antenna

Hope this is of some help.


de Howard, N9KTW
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KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2014, 06:42:55 AM »

Another question is this. What is on the circuits that trip? Does the tripping follow specific breakers (swap breakers between circuits) or is it tied to certain circuits?

If the trips are tied to certain circuits, it may well be that some device is rapidly changing its operating point or current draw in the presence of RF. Having someone view the AC waveform on one of the tripping circuits while a signal is being transmitted might be enlightening. If the RF is causing an SCR or TRIAC in some power supply to conduct strongly at time that is not normal that migh distort the AC waveform enough to trip the breaker. CW would be a worst case offender since the changes would be sharp edged, either signal or no signal.

KF7CG
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2014, 07:20:01 AM »

I expect the wiring in the house is acting as an antenna picking up the HF signal and feeding it into the breaker.

The problem with ferrites is that to be effective on 40M (or lower) it is probably going to require more that one small ferrite bead slipped over a conductor going to a breaker. Additionally, a small ferrite may be saturated by the normal AC current (as high as 20A on most circuits) flowing through the conductor. An inspector would probably have heart burn if he saw a panel loaded up with a bunch of conductive ferrite beads and you could have an issue if a fire was ever traced to a panel that had been modified with ferrites.

I wonder if Eaton is actually adding inductors and bypass capacitors as RF filtering to the breakers or are they doing firmware changes that alter the sensitivity to higher frequency pulses. I expect the latter. I would think that the arcing they are trying to detect would result in the largest pulses near 120Hz and a few harmonics. I wouldn't expect the arcing to create much energy in the HF spectrum as compared to 120Hz.

I also wonder if the cordless phone is one of the old units that operate on 49MHz or is it a newer model on 900MHz or 1.4GHz. I expect that the lower in frequency you go, the more impact it will have on the breakers.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 07:22:51 AM by AA4PB »
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
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