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Author Topic: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)  (Read 896078 times)

W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2014, 08:15:10 AM »

I expect the wiring in the house is acting as an antenna picking up the HF signal and feeding it into the breaker.

The problem with ferrites is that to be effective on 40M (or lower) it is probably going to require more that one small ferrite bead slipped over a conductor going to a breaker.  An inspector would probably have heart burn if he saw a panel loaded up with a bunch of conductive ferrite beads and you could have an issue if a fire was ever traced to a panel that had been modified with ferrites.

I also wonder if the cordless phone is one of the old units that operate on 49MHz or is it a newer model on 900MHz or 1.4GHz. I expect that the lower in frequency you go, the more impact it will have on the breakers.



I feel that the house wiring is acting as an antenna and thus traveling into the panel to the breakers. I am not going to try the ferrites as that would only lead to other consequences if there were to be a fire and probably would not be according to code in an electrical panel.

The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base.

I feel things are promising now with the additional filtering in the AFCI's. Eaton, in my opinion needs to change their manufacturing to include this filtering in all of their AFCI's.
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KD0REQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2014, 09:22:01 AM »

and when you reply to them, they either will, or provide the better AFCIs as a catalog item.

you can always put ferrites on the AC lines outside the entrance panel.  snap-over housings.
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2014, 10:59:50 AM »

Not only house wiring but any extension cords or cord lengths. Seems odd that an arc from wireless phone base would cause problem and not a similar arc occurring when plugging and unplugging anything that draws current.
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K1CJS

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #48 on: June 01, 2014, 01:53:05 AM »

...The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base....

I could see one circuit breaker (the one the phone is connected to) tripping if that were the case, but it was said that half a dozen breakers were.  I doubt the small arc from that is causing anything.

And I would still check the ground system to be sure everything was connected correctly and the connections were properly done, clean and tight.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #49 on: June 01, 2014, 08:13:43 AM »

...The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base....

I could see one circuit breaker (the one the phone is connected to) tripping if that were the case, but it was said that half a dozen breakers were.  I doubt the small arc from that is causing anything.

To clarify this there was just one breaker tripping when the phone was removed from the cradle.

Some bad news though, my neighbor next door reported to me yesterday that he had a HAM AFCI trip while I was on the air. I did not have any tripping at my house with the latest ones Eaton sent me, they have worked fine for me on all bands without any tripping.  This further affirms that the HAM breakers (the ones that were tested at the ARRL lab) are not going to work in close quarters.
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KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2014, 03:02:43 PM »

I wonder if the neighbor's latest AFCI trip was due to your transmission or if it tripped in response to an unrelated event?

Some testing with the neighbor might be in order to determine which bands and what RF power level cause AFCI tripping. You will then have the information you need if you chose to run at reduced power to solve the neighbors AFCI tripping.

This thread has brought valuable information and potential improvements to light. Perhaps you could take your findings to a wider audience by writing an eham article.

Googling afci nuisance tripping brings hundreds of hits. Apparently these devices are still evolving and input, such as yours, to the manufacturers may help lead to improved devices.

I work in the EMC community I'll keep an eye out for more on AFCI RF tripping.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2014, 03:15:33 PM by WX7G »
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #51 on: June 02, 2014, 05:50:09 AM »

I am sure it was an RF saturation trip. The neighborhood I live in, The Village at Deaton Creek, a Del-Webb/Pulte Homes Community the houses are only about 15 to 20 feet apart.  The last six breakers that Eaton sent me are working without fail with power levels up to 100 watts on all bands. The antenna I am using is a Buddipole configured as a dipole about 9-10 feet above ground. I am giving up on ever running an amp here in this community. What I fear is that when and if I put up a wire antenna that the problem will only get worse because of the increase in antenna gain. I thought the problem with TVI with 6 meters and channel 2 was a problem in the 60's and 70's was bad, but this AFCI situation is terrible and in my opinion will be the demise of amateur radio if these problems are not corrected in the manufacturing of these devices. I know the problem can be corrected in the manufacturing of components with additional filtering, such as the ones Eaton just sent me, they work flawlessly here at my location.  It's up to the manufacturers to correct this problem, which will cost them a few more pennies per breaker to add the additional components to ward off RF saturation. The ham community needs to stand up and demand the manufacturers address this problem. :)
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #52 on: June 02, 2014, 07:51:15 AM »

It would be interesting for all of us if you could ask your Eaton contact what they actually did to modify your breakers. Was it actually adding additional components like inductors and capacitors (i.e. L/C filters) or did they modify the firmware to avoid the RFI issue?
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #53 on: June 02, 2014, 08:50:47 AM »

If your Buddipole dipole does not have a common-mode current choke at the feedpoint you might try adding one. If the shield-side buddipole is not tuned close to resonance the feedline shield common-mode current will increase. That can increase RF current through the AC wiring. Perhaps a choke at the antenna and at the shack could help.
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 08:55:10 AM »

Request not do any antenna changes till this is sorted out with Eaton. I'd rather have more common mode to test the effectiveness of the new breakers. It seems that Eaton is not concerned enough to send any reps out to verify correct wiring of the breakers.
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 09:38:54 AM »

Is Eaton just sending you breakers and having you install them yourself? I don't think I'd be changing out any breakers in my neighbor's panel unless you are a licensed electrician. That's asking for liability - especially if the new breaker fails to detect a fault in an extension cord somewhere and a fire results.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 10:30:29 AM »

There are enough paths to a nuisance trip of an AFCI to make the head swim. Saturation trips, trip algorythm sensitive to operating frequency, and radio signal as a trigger that causes another device to change operation point is such a way as to trip breaker.

Now this is a DC to DC example of interaction so it is just a pointer to strange phenomenon. I had a camper and an older tube display TV that would run on 12 V DC. It would work well on battery if the camper were not plugged into shore power. Whenever the camper was plugged into shore power the TV would cycle on and off, and occassionally the power converter for the camper would do a protective shut down. This was worse if there were no other drains on the sytem than the TV. It seems as though the switching supply in the TV and the switching supply in the power converter were interacting with each other. I belive this could also happen in households where AFCI breakers are present.

I a moderately high power switching supply in the house is using zero-crossing switching for TRIACs in its circuitry and these are occassionally triggered by incidental RF to conduct on the high point of a cycle or two the AFCI could see intermittent high current surges that though they were not harmful had all the appearences of an arc. Higher current switching power supplies and AFCI breakers in RF fiels might be something to investigate.

I know! Just one more headache.

KF7CG
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 11:43:01 AM »

To answer some of the questions.

The Buddipole does have a feedpoint choke/balun. The antenna is always at resonance on the operating frequency as indicated by an antenna analyzer.

I changed out the breakers in my panel and my neighbor is going to change out his. I definitely would not make any changes in another homeowners panel.

I don't know what additional filtering the breakers have in them, but they are a little bit deeper physically indicating they have more components (inductors & capacitors) in them. They are working with the transmissions I have made.

Am I the only one that is having trouble with these breakers? I can't believe that I am.  :)



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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 11:59:22 AM »

Never heard of AFCIs till this post. Maybe required in newer homes, but all the homes near me built in the 80s.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 01:49:02 PM »

AFCI's are required in ALL residences according to NEC code. The 2014 NEC code requires that they be on all circuits inside a residence, including appliances. My house was built in 2013 and has them on all circuits except appliances. What will your neighbor think or do if he is gone on vacation for two weeks and he comes back and you have tripped his refrigerator and freezer AFCI's?  A worse scenario could be if your neighbor is on some sort of medical device and your HF transmission stopped the device from working. This is a distinct possibility. I wonder if the ARRL is going to pursue this like they did the BPL issue. I hope they will make note that this problem is only going to get worse as hams build new homes with these devices in them. The ARRL needs to be in there helping amateurs address this issue with the AFCI manufacturers.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 01:59:30 PM by W4TL »
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