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Author Topic: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)  (Read 896077 times)

AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 03:28:03 PM »

A house built in 1980 doesn't have to meet the 2014 NEC requirements. In addition, local jurisdictions can determine if they want to follow the entire NEC or not. Most new construction in most areas however will require AFCIs on all circuits. I agree that this is going to become a major issue.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 03:40:55 PM »

I forgot to ask this question. Are the breakers plug and play or do they need to be wired in?
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2014, 05:18:47 PM »

The breakers plug into the buss bar in the panel but you must wire the hot and neutral conductors of the branch circuit to the breaker.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KD0REQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2014, 06:58:07 PM »

if you never touch the house wiring, code is grandfathered.

when you make a change, by code, everything related to that circuit has to be brought to the current revision of code.  if you have some old arcwelder panel like an FPE or God forbid, a Zinser/Sylvania panel that has multiple issues beyond being unable to accept an AFCI breaker, you are required to change out the entrance panel or otherwise provide AFCI to the whole circuit.  and changing the panel makes every other circuit in the house subject to the requirements of code as it exists today.  if that's something archaic like a 60 amp or a 120-volt single-phase power drop, that also has to upgrade.

only the local electrical inspector can waive any requirements in your area.

and this January 2014, every circuit in a living space is required to be on an AFCI protected circuit in the latest code book.

now, you can get there by making the first device in the circuit an AFCI device (outlet) and chain the rest off it like you can do with GFI outlets.  assuming you can find the first device.  which is why AFCI breakers are the go-to solution now.

not a licensed contractor, I got my understanding from home inspector blogs and contractor posts.  your voltage may vary.  any questions, the source is your local inspector, because communities often tweak the standard codes.  if your burg has not adopted the 2014 NEC code, yet, or had it forced on them by state regulation, none of this matters right now.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2014, 07:13:02 PM by KD0REQ »
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2014, 07:17:28 PM »

Most of these AFCIs are probably being installed in new homes with CCRs and HOAs which rarely see any RF from a ham. What bothers me is that I think the industry solution will be like it was in the old days with TV. They will supply a RF immune AFCI only when requested, just too many out there to be recalled. Bummer. Who picks up the installation tab?
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #65 on: June 03, 2014, 06:28:27 AM »

Most of these AFCIs are probably being installed in new homes with CCRs and HOAs which rarely see any RF from a ham. What bothers me is that I think the industry solution will be like it was in the old days with TV. They will supply a RF immune AFCI only when requested, just too many out there to be recalled. Bummer. Who picks up the installation tab?
The point is not recalling those already out there. BUT TO DEMAND THAT ALL MANUFACTURERS  BUILD SUFFICIENT RF PROTECTION INTO ALL NEW DEVICES. It really doesn't matter whether a house is built in a development with CCR's and HOA's or not. If a ham builds on a 100 acre spread and follows code he will have to deal with these devices as well. If not addressed now it will only become worse. It's really hard to explain to a neighbor that the problem is with his AFCI and not your radio transmission especially when he finds out that he will have to pay to have the devices replaced.
I feel the ARRL is just going to stick their head in the sand on this.
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KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #66 on: June 03, 2014, 06:58:21 AM »

Hey, you guys missed the notes earlier in this dicussion. The ARRL has its hands all over this case plus it has been working with EATON to have RFI resistant AFCI breakers built. The ARRL is in their solidly just not in a confrontational and flashy manor.  I believe that part of the problem is that the ARRL has clout with the FCC and other communications entities, but not with the National Electric Codes and related entities. This is a cross jurisdictional fight and the worst thing we would want to have happen is to have two large government agencies to get into a turf war with Amateur Radio in the middle.

KF7CG
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #67 on: June 03, 2014, 08:05:24 AM »

The AFCIs are in complete compliance if they meet the EMI portion of the specification. The only way to have the AFCIs not falsely RF trip is to redesign them and change the EMI portion of the spec. Guess we have to wait and see what happens.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #68 on: June 03, 2014, 08:24:06 AM »

I didn't miss the notes earlier in the discussion.  I read their (ARRL) article "ARRL Helps Manufacturer to Resolve Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter RFI Problems"in early April about the AFCI's when I first realized I had a problem and have talked to their lab about this situation. The word "Resolve" would make one think the issue in this article is settled, solved and fixed. I can assure you that it is not resolved because the AFCI's the article refers to are still tripping. I totally support the ARRL and always will. Why haven't they have made public more information about it if they are in fact doing more. The HAM AFCI's they helped prototype in their (ARRL) lab aren't working in a near RF field. Eaton has sent out more AFCI's to me with additional filtering which tolerate the RF much better (They do not trip).

I totally agree they need to be redesigned to accept and tolerate the RF. Is the league pushing or pursuing this?  :)
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #69 on: June 03, 2014, 09:45:01 AM »

The term "HAM AFCI" makes me wonder if they intend to supply standard AFCIs through their distributors and only supply HAM AFCIs via special order when they have a complaint. That won't be good for hams. Can you imagine telling your neighbor who knows nothing about breakers, ham radio, or RFI that he must hire an electrician to replace all of the breakers in his panel in order to prevent you from tripping them.  >:(  Or that it's not your fault that you tripped the breakers while he was out of town and $400 worth of food in his freezer spoiled and had to be thrown out.


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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #70 on: June 03, 2014, 11:08:32 AM »

I believe that the AFCI mess will be with us for quite some time. From what I have seen it is the result of an agency seeing a possible problem and then mandating the first technical fix that it could see without any regard for the possible side effects.

I can see the logic now. Arcs generate RF signals. OMG if we can detect the signals on the powerline we can trip in cases of an arc. Lets build them.  Oh, oh they respond to other RF too. Keep them away from broadcast stations and toss in a little filtering. I really believe that no great deal of investigation was given to the frequency of spurious trips caused by the neighboring environment until after the breakers were mandated as a standard and the excrement began to hit the ventilator.

Everyone, FCC, ARRL, whatever the initials of the agency that writes the NEC are, a whole bunch of city code enforcment bureaus, realtors, home owners, and Amateur Radio operators will be struggling and fighting over this for a long period of time.

Has anybody ever found out if the electronic dog fence in the wrong place can trip some of the unhardened models. I have a bad feeling this will boil down to a manufacturer by manufacturer slog. What do you do if your neighbors circuit panel doesn't accept AFCIs that are RFI resistant.

I won't say RFI proof since I believe that their design precludes that, their RFI resistance can only be enhanced.

I think that the AFCI was picked green.

KF7CG
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #72 on: June 03, 2014, 12:40:56 PM »

Back to the League's position on this, why haven't they pursued this like they did the "Grow Light Ballast" interference? They succeeded in getting that culprit off the market.

http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-to-fcc-grow-light-ballast-causes-hf-interference-violates-rules

I realize HF interference from a device is different than a device being tolerant to HF transmissions, which is the issue with AFCI's. The end result from both devices is the same, the amateur can't operate because of these devices being in close proximity to his station. At some point down the road, I don't have any idea how long that will be but EVERY amateur will have these devices in his home. Is it better to address this issue now or wait for the hams to start dropping out of the hobby because they can't put a signal on the air?

I'm not advocating taking the AFCI's off the market at all.  What I would like the League to do is to lobby to get the standards changed on these devices to make all future AFCI's more tolerant to HF transmissions by redesigning them with improved software and filtering. If the League is working toward that I would like to know. :)

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KD0REQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2014, 12:46:03 PM »

it's a case of every time a foolproof technology is introduced, someone invents a bett... ahhhh... an interesting codicil to the theory, is that more acceptable to all?  noticed in the Siemens white paper (obviously for point of sale) that "a vendor" tried this on 477 volt 3-phase decades ago and found their approach was bogus.

every installation is unique, and some folks are going to have radiating siding, or a resonant ground, or little demons moving electrons around when nobody is looking, or whatever Murphy-related issue you can think of.

if Eaton et al keep a box of "special" breakers at the support desk in case of frequent trips on suspected-good wiring, hooray for us.  lord help us all if specialized testing is required, like megging the branch circuit, before they release a Magic AFCI.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #74 on: June 03, 2014, 02:22:27 PM »

There have been a great deal of ideas and solutions offered up on this subject. I would like to hear from individuals that have experienced this problem with AFCI's and if and how they resolved or are dealing with the situation. I can't believe that there are not others who are not experiencing this. Maybe no other ham has them in their residence.  :)
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