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Author Topic: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)  (Read 896078 times)

KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2014, 02:46:55 PM »

I remember seing a note from the ARRL that they were working on this with Eaton but had gotten little to no cooperation from other breaker manufacturers.

In reading the Seimens paper and paying close attention to the regulators involved, I see very little place for the ARRL to weild influence. The FCC has little jurisdiction in this area also. Since these devices are not emitters nor are they receivers of communications they do not fall under the FCC's control unless they cause interference. The FCC has about as much (maybe less) control over them as they would over a toaster that incidentally received radio signals.

Until some one convinces the electrical codes and safety bodies to incorporate radiated emissions rejection into the standards for AFCIs there is little force to be had in this situation. That Eaton is willing to try and that the league has a somewhat cooperative relationship with them is a big plus.

Now if for some reason WiFi routers were to reliably trip these units we might have some help. Question, does anyone know what the VHF/UHF susceptibility of these devices is? The local police might find it disconcerting if their radios turned off the lights in the new homes in their area.

KF7CG
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KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2014, 03:55:09 PM »

The UL 1699 standard for AFCI devices include conducted and radiated immunity tests per IEC 61000-4-6. But the levels are not as high as a what a 100 watt transmitter next door can produce.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 03:57:51 PM by WX7G »
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #77 on: June 03, 2014, 04:26:13 PM »

If I have the info correct, 25 feet from house on aux power the AFCIs tripped at 20 watts. Not sure of the lowest power, think 10 watts was mentioned.

Any way to even ballpark the values possible to be induced into the AFCI? The way I read the spec 140db microvolts (10 volts) max.

Assumption is the problem is conducted versus radiated RF.

Tests also only go up to 80 Mhz.


« Last Edit: June 03, 2014, 04:28:46 PM by KI6LZ »
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2014, 07:55:52 AM »


Some bad news though, my neighbor next door reported to me yesterday that he had a HAM AFCI trip while I was on the air. I did not have any tripping at my house with the latest ones Eaton sent me, they have worked fine for me on all bands without any tripping.  This further affirms that the HAM breakers (the ones that were tested at the ARRL lab) are not going to work in close quarters.

 :) My neighbor received the new AFCI with additional filtering on Tuesday to replace his suspect breaker. He replaced it the same day and so far there have not been any trips with the new breaker. In my opinion this further affirms that the additional filtering does the trick :)
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 08:09:58 AM by W4TL »
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KF7CG

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2014, 09:08:06 AM »

That is good news if the newer "enhanced" breakers become Eaton's new standard.

What we need now are "real world" tests of other manufacturers breakers. I don't believe that all the electrical distribution products companies are conceding the AFCI market to Eaton.

Again thanks to all who put in time to solve this instance. Now let's see how Square D breakers react.

KF7CG
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2014, 09:11:28 AM »

Not even close to being resolved in the ham community. Try running a kilowatt and beam in direction of AFCIs.
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W4TL

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2014, 10:18:11 AM »

Not even close to being resolved in the ham community. Try running a kilowatt and beam in direction of AFCIs.

I agree, I don't think it takes a KW to trip these devices. I have abandoned the idea of ever running an amp in this community. Can you imagine a mobile unit driving down the street in a neighborhood like mine with a 100 watt signal after dark. I'll bet you can watch the lights progressively go out house by house as they drive down the street.

I know now the problem can be resolved. It's up to the manufacturers of these devices to do it by incorporating enough filtering and improved firmware to insure that RF doesn't affect them. This is where the solution lies. Are the manufacturers willing to spend the extra money on each item to fix the problem?

I still would like to hear from others who have experienced AFCI's tripping with HF transmissions.
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KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2014, 02:05:58 PM »

I think it's up to a change in regulations.

With 1 million houses built per year in the U.S. with each having a dozen AFCIs, and guestimating $2 per AFCI, if the cost is passed on dollar for dollar the additional cost is 24 million dollars a year total. Per homeowner the cost is $24.
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2014, 02:22:44 PM »

Without a regulation change, some mfgs are going to make the cheapest AFCI that they can (thus no RFI filtering) and most electricians (knowing nothing about RFI) are going to install the cheapest AFCI they can purchase into the new homes. Everything goes to the low bidder. Everybody is happy except for the poor guy who purchases a home next door to a ham, or near a police station or broadcast station.

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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA

KD0REQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2014, 06:58:04 PM »

there is a little bitty difference in the race to the bottom.  you do not pass code and collect $200 mixing and matching the parts in the entrance panel.  they are rated for service with a certain class of breakers, which are rated for a certain class of panel.

it might fit, but you are stomping on the codebook if you put a Siemens breaker in an Eaton BR panel.  you need to stay within the brand, and within the series.  don't know if a CR breaker will fit in a BR panel, but they don't belong together.  the plating is different, they are not tested together, etc. (CR panels have a plated copper bus bar set, BRs are aluminum, for instance.)  the inspector is required to drop their pen and frown.  theoretically the "universal bus" is just that, but there are little physical differences that make the slippery switch obvious for a reason.

if you don't know if Schneider Square-D tests their AFCIs in an RF field, or Siemens, or Billy Joe's Gently Used Old Electrics, or whomever, you kinda need to ask around.  so far, all we know about is Eaton working with the League. for 690,000 potential customers, at least, I think Eaton buddied up for a reason.  it sure isn't costing them much to detail an engineer and poke about in the lab, over and above chasing field complaints.

this is why I asked way back when what series of panel was being dealt with.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2014, 07:14:13 PM by KD0REQ »
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KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #85 on: June 05, 2014, 07:20:14 PM »

Making all AFCIs compatible with amateur radio will cost money. Who should pay for it?

1. The tax payer through a tax increase.
2. The buyers of newly constructed homes through higher house prices.
3. Amateur radio operators through a user fee.
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KI6LZ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #86 on: June 05, 2014, 08:59:55 PM »

I would pick none of the above. A little bit premature to ask who should pay. We don't have the whole story, very little of it and very little info. Have no info on the test data, whether the units passed the CE or RE tests, how they were conducted and by which lab etc. Units may not have been tested above 80 Mhz.

So I think we wait until we hear more, hopefully from the ARRL.

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KH6AQ

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #87 on: June 06, 2014, 07:06:36 AM »

Eaton is a reputable manufacturer so let's assume that their standard AFCIs meet the EMC immunity requirements of UL 1699. Amateur radio RF transmissions can cause conditions that exceed UL 1699 requirements and making AFCIs immune to amateur radio transmissions will cost money. So, if one advocates that more robust AFCIs be made available the question of who is to pay is a legitimate one.

AFCIs are mandated by law and the cost is borne by buyers of homes built since 1999. The benefit they receive is safety from fires caused by arcing loads. They receive the benefit and they pay for it. Making AFCIs immune to amateur radio transmissions benefits the homeowner and the amateur. Should the cost be shared by the two? In fairness perhaps but logistically it would require a change in the amateur radio service. The straightforward way to pay for it is to change the immunity standard and have the homeowner pay for it.

 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 07:46:20 AM by WX7G »
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AA4PB

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RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #89 on: June 06, 2014, 08:40:29 AM »

This last paper makes me wonder if the Eaton fix was simply to reduce the AFCI sensitivity to all events?

I was wondering that myself. Looking at the internal pictures where would you be able to place L and C on the neutral and hot branch circuit connections without doing a complete mechanical re-design? The series L would be rather large in order to handle 20A of current.

I think I read somewhere that Eaton holds a patent on the AFCI.


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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
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