eHam
eHam Forums => Licensing => Topic started by: K7TAR on October 13, 2021, 08:39:47 PM
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Not to stir anything up, but since 2018 when I got my General license, I’ve been questioning ARRL band restrictions to myself… Have I considered passing the Extra exam? Yes. And decided against it - it is too “technical” and has nothing to do with my ability to operate a radio station in CW/SSB/Digital modes. In fact, I see very little benefit of using those 25KHz “elite slots” except during contests, which is another loaded question - why not allow everyone to use them during contests? If it does anything at all, it’s discriminating 80% of USA contest participants and puts them at a disadvantage, because most of other countries don’t have that restriction!
Outside contesting, I have little or no use for those slots. Since 2018, I’ve got my DXCC, WAZ, WAS, WPX and a bunch of other awards, standing at 183+ DXCC countries confirmed, and 197+ for R-150-S..
First, I thought these restrictions protect “good hams” from “bad hams” or LIDs, but that’s hardly the case… I’ve heard and seen quite a few “yahoos” from both ends of the pond in the “protected areas”. And - very few build their own equipment these days - not that anything is wrong with that - but what in the world (where nobody else has this rule) does that have to do with operating a radio station? Since when ham radio is about y’all’s college-level knowledge of the laws of physics and math?
I mean no disrespect to the Experts - y’all have your special cool call signs - is it not enough? Do you really enjoy CQ-ing where 80% can’t answer your call? Or do you really feel like winners in contests knowing that majority of Contesters couldn’t use that first 25KHz where you made half of your “multipliers”?
So my solution would be - mandatory CW exam with General license, no restrictions for CW but you can keep those “SSB heavens”, we don’t need them. Personally, I’m just too old for all the theoretical physics and math questions, but I can still send/receive CW at 25-35 WPM, build my own antennas, operate radio equipment and tune my PC for digital modes… if that counts for nothing, then what does? All the knowledge of radio physics does not make one a good radio operator if all he/she can do is chat in SSB about weather all day long - or am I wrong?
‘
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Not to stir anything up, but since 2018 when I got my General license, I’ve been questioning ARRL band restrictions to myself… Have I considered passing the Extra exam? Yes. And decided against it - it is too “technical” and has nothing to do with my ability to operate a radio station in CW/SSB/Digital modes. In fact, I see very little benefit of using those 25KHz “elite slots” except during contests, which is another loaded question - why not allow everyone to use them during contests? If it does anything at all, it’s discriminating 80% of USA contest participants and puts them at a disadvantage, because most of other countries don’t have that restriction!
Outside contesting, I have little or no use for those slots. Since 2018, I’ve got my DXCC, WAZ, WAS, WPX and a bunch of other awards, standing at 183+ DXCC countries confirmed, and 197+ for R-150-S..
First, I thought these restrictions protect “good hams” from “bad hams” or LIDs, but that’s hardly the case… I’ve heard and seen quite a few “yahoos” from both ends of the pond in the “protected areas”. And - very few build their own equipment these days - not that anything is wrong with that - but what in the world (where nobody else has this rule) does that have to do with operating a radio station? Since when ham radio is about y’all’s college-level knowledge of the laws of physics and math?
I mean no disrespect to the Experts - y’all have your special cool call signs - is it not enough? Do you really enjoy CQ-ing where 80% can’t answer your call? Or do you really feel like winners in contests knowing that majority of Contesters couldn’t use that first 25KHz where you made half of your “multipliers”?
So my solution would be - mandatory CW exam with General license, no restrictions for CW but you can keep those “SSB heavens”, we don’t need them. Personally, I’m just too old for all the theoretical physics and math questions, but I can still send/receive CW at 25-35 WPM, build my own antennas, operate radio equipment and tune my PC for digital modes… if that counts for nothing, then what does? All the knowledge of radio physics does not make one a good radio operator if all he/she can do is chat in SSB about weather all day long - or am I wrong?
‘
You are wrong and if you have to ask why, you are really wrong.
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Thanks… I’ve been wrong before, that’s no surprise - but can you elaborate? I don’t “have to ask”, I’m fine either way - but you must know something I don’t, so please do share and enlighten me… please!
According to QRZ.COM you made 51 QSOs since 2018 in SSB… while that may not mean anything, I made over 5400 - so please, do tell me why I’m “really” wrong.
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Welcome to a society where people want something without having to work for it...........Passing the Extra exam has NEVER been easier.
Tom KH0/KC0W
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Sir
The extra band space are for people who go the extra mile to a higher class of license.
And as Tom said "Passing the Extra exam has NEVER been easier. "
For willing to do a little work
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I WANT SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!!!
Give me, Give me, Give me!!!
"For willing to do a little work"
And there is the issue!
"it is too “technical”
Uhhhh.... this is a "technical" hobby!?!?!!!
I have NO problem with a no-code license(I came in as a no-code tech in 1991)
and I hated CW(but did it) but it should STILL be required, at LEAST for the Extra.
(13WPM Extra)
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Testing for extra November 6th. Getting away from the contest section of the bands will be the biggest benefit.
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"Not to stir anything up, but".... STOP reading right there. Why? Using the word ‘but’ in the middle of a sentence negates everything that came before it. That's clearly all you're trying to do. I highly doubt the FCC or ARRL will listen to a word you say so your 403 words is a complete waste of everyone's time.
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Thanks… I’ve been wrong before, that’s no surprise - but can you elaborate? I don’t “have to ask”, I’m fine either way - but you must know something I don’t, so please do share and enlighten me… please!
According to QRZ.COM you made 51 QSOs since 2018 in SSB… while that may not mean anything, I made over 5400 - so please, do tell me why I’m “really” wrong.
You aren't the best detective. If you were you'd know my history with the Zed and that I deleted all my calls when they gave me a vacation. I would have zero listed if they didn't permanently ban my account access, before I could delete them all.
If you want to know my activity you need to go to LoTW to see a small portion of it.
I have been a ham since '98 and while that is still fairly new, I can guarantee I made more than 235 calls a year to surpass your 5400 total. That and $2 will buy me a decent cup of coffee.
Carry on and if you want more spectrum do it the respectable way and EARN IT!
No participation trophies...
P.S Everything after "but" is B.S. so keep stirring but you're not fooling anyone about your intentions.
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Not to stir anything up, but since 2018 when I got my General license, I’ve been questioning ARRL band restrictions to myself…
Stop right there!
They're not "ARRL band restrictions".
They're FCC regulations. They're in Part 97.
If you don't understand the difference, you REALLY need to do some more learning about how Amateur Radio works.
Have I considered passing the Extra exam? Yes. And decided against it - it is too “technical” and has nothing to do with my ability to operate a radio station in CW/SSB/Digital modes.
Do it anyway. It's just one multiple choice test. You only need 74% to pass. It's very basic stuff to anyone who really understands radio.
I got my Extra in 1970 at the age of 16, in the summer between 10th and 11th grades, with no Elmer other than books and no formal training in radio or electronics. Passed on the first try.
In fact, I see very little benefit of using those 25KHz “elite slots” except during contests, which is another loaded question - why not allow everyone to use them during contests?
Because FCC doesn't think that's a good idea.
If it does anything at all, it’s discriminating 80% of USA contest participants and puts them at a disadvantage, because most of other countries don’t have that restriction!
80%? How do you figure that?
Here are the numbers of US hams
on October 6, 2021:
Novice: 6,960 (0.9%)
Technician 397,108 (50.9%)
Technician Plus 0 (0.0%)
General 185,726 (23.8%)
Advanced 36,426 (4.7%)
Extra 154,022 (19.7%)
Total 780,242
Extras make up just about 20% of all US amateurs....BUT....
Most US hams who are active on HF are Generals, Advanceds, or Extras. Out of those, Extras are nearly 40%.
How many Novices or Technicians do you encounter in contests?
The vast majority of serious contesters I know have their Extras.
Outside contesting, I have little or no use for those slots. Since 2018, I’ve got my DXCC, WAZ, WAS, WPX and a bunch of other awards, standing at 183+ DXCC countries confirmed, and 197+ for R-150-S..
That's great! So why not get an Extra?
First, I thought these restrictions protect “good hams” from “bad hams” or LIDs, but that’s hardly the case… I’ve heard and seen quite a few “yahoos” from both ends of the pond in the “protected areas”.
That's not the purpose of those regulations, and never was.
And - very few build their own equipment these days - not that anything is wrong with that - but what in the world (where nobody else has this rule) does that have to do with operating a radio station?
Everything. And some of us DO build our own gear. Check out my station over on QRZ.COM. I've got WAS, DXCC, and 119 entities confirmed with that setup. 100 watts, CW only, 80/40/20, wire antenna at 40 feet on a small suburban lot.
Since when ham radio is about y’all’s college-level knowledge of the laws of physics and math?
Nothing in any of the US license tests is anywhere close to college-level knowledge. Heck, it's barely high school level, if that.
Plenty of teenagers have earned Extra in high school and middle school. In the 1990s, an 8 year old in the third grade earned the Extra. Passed all 5 written tests required and 20 wpm code. Not all at the same time, but earned the license and used it. Good operator too.
I mean no disrespect to the Experts - y’all have your special cool call signs - is it not enough?
I've had this callsign since 1977. It's not a vanity call; it was sequentially issued.
Do you really enjoy CQ-ing where 80% can’t answer your call?
80% of whom?
Or do you really feel like winners in contests knowing that majority of Contesters couldn’t use that first 25KHz where you made half of your “multipliers”?
How do you know where I made my Qs during contests?
So my solution would be - mandatory CW exam with General license, no restrictions for CW but you can keep those “SSB heavens”, we don’t need them.
Not going to happen. The code tests went away 14 years ago and you'll have a very hard time convincing FCC to bring them back. They're history. GONE.
Personally, I’m just too old for all the theoretical physics and math questions, but I can still send/receive CW at 25-35 WPM, build my own antennas, operate radio equipment and tune my PC for digital modes… if that counts for nothing, then what does?
Too old? I'm 6 years older than you. The Extra is basic stuff.
[Quote
All the knowledge of radio physics does not make one a good radio operator if all he/she can do is chat in SSB about weather all day long - or am I wrong?
[/quote]
You're wrong.
If you want the privileges, pass the test. It's one multiple choice test!
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Since even 7 yr olds pass the Extra exam and the actual answers are published common knowledge,just how easy do you want it to be??? Maybe VE's should start handing out Participation Trophy's to those who don't pass???
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I'm thinking that we have entered into the "entitlement generation"! Gone are the days when we were willing to tax our gray matter to obtain a lofty goal. The reasoning being, IMMHO, if we wait, the government will give it to us, so why bother working for it! The story of the grasshopper and the ant comes to mind. I'm afraid that if a poll were to be taken it would find that there would be a close balance between the working force and the government 'teaters'. ... But, I may be wrong??
Charlie
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I've got my general and am happy with the bandwidth allowed, only problem is having to look at the chart to see where I can operate (can't seem to memorize that). If I want an Extra, I'll take the test. If all I wanted to do was chat on vhf/uhf I'd have stayed a tech.
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Thanks and apologies if my questions upset anyone. I got my answers :)
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I’ve been questioning ARRL band restrictions...
Let's start with the fact that they not "ARRL band restrictions".
They're FCC regulations.
To find out why they're there ---whether you like what you find our not-- go to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_licensing_in_the_United_States#Incentive_licensing
Scroll down to section 3.4 "Incentive Licensing" and start reading from there.
;)
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If the ARRL had gotten its way in 1963, Generals would have lost ALL phone privileges below 10 meters. That was part of the original ARRL Incentive Licensing proposal. I'm willing to bet, based on what I've read in ham magazines from that era, the league thought they could ram this through the FCC at will. Fortunately, the FCC shot it down and created the compromise that took effect in 1968.
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If the ARRL had gotten its way in 1963, Generals would have lost ALL phone privileges below 10 meters. That was part of the original ARRL Incentive Licensing proposal. I'm willing to bet, based on what I've read in ham magazines from that era, the league thought they could ram this through the FCC at will. Fortunately, the FCC shot it down and created the compromise that took effect in 1968.
You're mistaken. You've left out WAY too many facts. For example, 160 was never part of incentive licensing.
Here's what REALLY happened:
1) Before mid-February 1953, Generals and Conditionals had NO 'phone privileges at all on the bands between 2.5 and 25 MHz. To use voice modes on those bands required an Advanced (old Class A) or Extra license. Generals and Conditionals could use CW everywhere on those bands.
2) In mid-February 1953, the FCC completely reversed that policy and gave full privileges to Generals and Conditionals. This meant that four of the six license classes back then had full privileges, and there was no operational reason to go beyond General or Conditional.
3) The original 1963 ARRL incentive licensing proposal was simply to reopen the Advanced license to new issues and return to how things had been before the Great Giveaway of 1952/53.
4) Under the original 1963 ARRL proposal, all a General or Advanced would need to do to get full privileges would be to pass the Advanced written exam. No additional code tests, no experience requirement, just one 50 question written test.
5) Under the original 1963 ARRL proposal, the loss of 'phone privileges would be phased in over a period of years so that existing Generals and Conditionals would have time to study for and pass the Advanced test and upgrade before losing any privileges.
6) Then as now, FCC would not make any such change without formal comments, reply comments, and other steps. No group could "ram through" any such changes without everyone having a chance to have their say.
7) The original 1963 ARRL proposal caused others to write proposals - at least 10 other proposals were sent to FCC and given RM numbers. There were thousands of comments filed - and this was back when there was no internet, no word processors, and even things like copy machines were very rare.
8] The end result was a conglomeration of changes that went into effect in stages starting in 1967. Nobody lost privileges until November 1968.
What drove "incentive licensing" was the perception that US amateurs were falling behind, and becoming nothing more than "appliance operators". The early 1960s were a time when the Soviet Union was ahead in the Space Race, when JFK asked that we face the New Frontier, go on 50 mile hikes, join the Peace Corps, etc., when schools got the New Math and enhanced science programs. Amateur Radio was not immune to that perception.
The reality was that the introduction of the Novice license in 1951, plus post-WW2 prosperity, military surplus, the growth of the suburbs and the middle class, and developments in electronics had resulted in a rapid increase in the number of US hams. At the end of WW2 there were maybe 60,000 US amateurs - by 1963 the numbers were four times that many. These factors also led to most US hams building kits or using manufactured gear rather than homebrewing or converting surplus.
Most of all, the Great Giveaway of 52/53 meant that once the General or Conditional was earned, many new hams thought they'd "done it all" and were "set for life".
A typical path was to get the Novice license, work like mad to get on the air, get the code speed to 13 wpm, study various books on the General test, and get the General or Conditional before the Novice year ended. Once that G or C license was in hand, the new ham could relax.....and many did.
FCC had expected that many hams would go on to the Extra "because it was there" - but, according to the 1963 Callbook, there were only 3,164 Extras out of 254,420 amateurs in the 48 CONUS states. That's 1.2% - not enough to satisfy FCC.
Read some more magazines from that time - in particular the QST articles that detail the whys and wherefores. Get the FULL picture.
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So my solution would be - mandatory CW exam with General license, no restrictions for CW but you can keep those “SSB heavens”, we don’t need them. Personally, I’m just too old for all the theoretical physics and math questions, but I can still send/receive CW at 25-35 WPM, build my own antennas, operate radio equipment and tune my PC for digital modes… if that counts for nothing, then what does? All the knowledge of radio physics does not make one a good radio operator if all he/she can do is chat in SSB about weather all day long - or am I wrong?
So,Why didn't you upgrade when you were younger? The "theoretical physics and math questions" are middle
school level at best.
There are children who have Extra licenses!
If your mental capacity is so diminished, how well can you operate a radio?
Not everyone wants to be a CW op. In fact I was one of them who avoided AR because of that requirement.
Ironically now that I got my "no code Extra" , I proceeded to learn CW and it is now my primary mode.
Unfortunately, many fists are so bad, it makes copying them very difficult. At least phone coms are always intelligible.
I can't send at 25 WPM, but my 16 WPM is "clean" with no swings ,spaceless streams,or dit daaaaaaah bug nonsense.
If only more OPs were concerned with sending legitimate Morse code, that would be great!
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Thanks Everyone for some really great comments and history lessons. I’m going to give it a shot, just got the “good book” delivered…
73! Andy
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Thanks Everyone for some really great comments and history lessons. I’m going to give it a shot, just got the “good book” delivered…
73! Andy
Andy, we are all pulling for you to get that Extra. I might suggest looking at the interactive "ham test online" learning method. It does cost $35 for the Extra, I know a little about it because the wife is studying it now to get her Extra. It seems to be a good program as it continues to monitor your weak areas and it stresses the curriculum and test to bolster the areas you are weak in. I am not suggesting you cannot succeed with just a book study guide, because I did it that way, but if you want more, you might look at Ham Test online.
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What drove "incentive licensing" was the perception that US amateurs were falling behind, and becoming nothing more than "appliance operators". The early 1960s were a time when the Soviet Union was ahead in the Space Race, when JFK asked that we face the New Frontier, go on 50 mile hikes, join the Peace Corps, etc., when schools got the New Math and enhanced science programs. Amateur Radio was not immune to that perception.
Perception NO, reality YES from someone who was actually there. The flood of Generals scattered on all bands then was almost as bad as Generals and Techs today when it comes to knowing much of anything about the technical/engineering side of the hobby.
Apparently the Feds no longer consider hams a resource in times of need.
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Verizon works over the horizon, so it’s not too surprisin’, they don’t need no stinkin’ Hams with badges!
;D
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There has always been this ongoing pixxing contest regarding what the standards should be to have an amateur radio license.
With regard to personal opinions on the forums, it always seems to come down to this:
An applicant has to prove he or she is "... at least as good as I THINK I am ...", no matter if that "I" person is a high school dropout, pilot, technician, engineer or Nobel laureate.
Pretty subjective and funny, if you think about it. And no operator, no matter how bad their habits EVER says "I don't belong here!".
The simple fact is, 99.99999% of hams today couldn't repair a modern radio, let alone build one (unless its a "Lego" kit) to save their lives, nor do they have access to the equipment needed to do so. And it was pretty much the same back in the '60's. (Remember Heathkit, Allied, etc.?).
Regardless of skill level, the hobby can be enjoyed well as long as we are cooperative and respectful of each other. That and a little reading regarding the very, very, very basic operating rules we do have will carry the day. And as far as "saving the world via ham radio...", remember that all the movie scenarios depict this as the world ending. Back to reality ...
Even "Appliance Operators" can be useful in an emergency, even a small one like a riot, if they are approached by police or other authorities to help out - not so much if they simply "butt in". This happens. Sometimes. But very rarely. Usually on VHF/UHF FM voice. But not always.
Just having comms gear available and set up can help,in an unofficial capacity, during anything from a hurricane to and earthquake. Then there are sometimes helpful services such as MARS.
But when was the last time any ham was asked: "Hey! We're in dire need here and you HAVE to call for help using ...CW... nothing else will do!" You MIGHT be comfortable doing this via CW, but there also so many other modes to choose from, including SSB. Just depends on the conditions, power available and number of users who can work you.
This mostly a hobby for self entertainment that can sometimes be useful.
So, personally, I LIKE non-technical, appliance operators who step into this hobby and welcome them with open arms. Many DO like to pick up as much operator and technology skills as they can fit into their life schedule - and they become very pleasant people to work and talk to.
Real estate agents, low level technicians, engineers, homemakers ... variety in life is good. All that's really needed in this hobby is a shared passion for it and a willingness to be friendly.
Have a great day!
Brian - K6BRN
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You forgot used car and insurance salesmen.
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I’ve been questioning ARRL band restrictions...
Let's start with the fact that they not "ARRL band restrictions".
They're FCC regulations.
To find out why they're there ---whether you like what you find our not-- go to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio_licensing_in_the_United_States#Incentive_licensing
Scroll down to section 3.4 "Incentive Licensing" and start reading from there.
;)
I'm thinking this thread might have had a friendlier tone if KS2G's response had been the first one. ;)
His incentive licensing link leads to a straight answer!
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You forgot used car and insurance salesmen.
Thanks, Carl. Yes - them, too. And veterans and veterinarians.
Brian - K6BRN
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You forgot used car and insurance salesmen.
Thanks, Carl. Yes - them, too. And veterans and veterinarians.
Brian - K6BRN
And the Butcher, the Baker, and Candle Stick Maker.
In the mid 60's, I operated a lot of 2 Meter AM. One of the regulars on the band was a Baker that operated from his Bakery, while he was waiting for his bread to rise. We use to talk regularly.
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And farmers too!
I worked a couple summers on a farm where I was driving a tractor most of the day. Put a mag mount on the tractor and used me HT and passed a lot of time with conversations through the local repeater.
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You forgot used car and insurance salesmen.
Thanks, Carl. Yes - them, too. And veterans and veterinarians.
Brian - K6BRN
What do you have against veterans?
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You forgot used car and insurance salesmen.
Thanks, Carl. Yes - them, too. And veterans and veterinarians.
Brian - K6BRN
What do you have against veterans?
Yah! What?
:'( ::) :o ;D
Charlie
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What have you got against insurance salesmen? Your going to want and need a good one that you trust when you are deciding on your Medicare fate. And it is often a lifelong decision that you will be required to make, good or bad. It is up to you, but you are sure going to need someone to guide you.
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What a crock. Ive never used a door knocker salesman for anything including insurance.
All my insurance is thru USAA and medical is thru VA.
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What a crock. Ive never used a door knocker salesman for anything including insurance.
All my insurance is thru USAA and medical is thru VA.
Did I say anything about being a door knocker insurance salesman? NO. All of my client contacts are thru appointments only. And I do very few any more.
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What you said was:
What have you got against insurance salesmen?
.
That seems to be a very broad answer. The door to door insurance seller was a well known pest for decades. About as bad as another group I wont mention here.
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All along the Watchtower; can I get a Witness. ::)
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What you said was:
What have you got against insurance salesmen?
.
That seems to be a very broad answer. The door to door insurance seller was a well known pest for decades. About as bad as another group I wont mention here.
What other group do you disapprove of Carl? You brought it up, might as well express yourself.
For the record, I would not want some insurance salesman knocking on my door either unless we had an appointment.
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There has always been this ongoing pixxing contest regarding what the standards should be to have an amateur radio license.
With regard to personal opinions on the forums, it always seems to come down to this:
An applicant has to prove he or she is "... at least as good as I THINK I am ...", no matter if that "I" person is a high school dropout, pilot, technician, engineer or Nobel laureate.
Pretty subjective and funny, if you think about it. And no operator, no matter how bad their habits EVER says "I don't belong here!".
Some may think that way. Most don't. And of course Dunning-Kruger Effect is common.
The simple fact is, 99.99999% of hams today couldn't repair a modern radio, let alone build one (unless its a "Lego" kit) to save their lives, nor do they have access to the equipment needed to do so. And it was pretty much the same back in the '60's. (Remember Heathkit, Allied, etc.?).
Let's do the math!
99% is 99 out of 100
99.9% is 999 out of 1,000
99.99% is 9,999 out of 10,000
99.999% is 99,999 out of 100,000
99.9999% is 999,999 out of 1,000,000
99.99999% is 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000
IOW, you're saying only 1 in 10 million hams couldn't repair a "modern" radio, let alone build one.
But that's clearly not the case. 99% might not be able to, but not 99.99999%.
And I remember the 1960s and the kits. Hams built them in the tens of thousands - for many years, the HW-101 was the most popular amateur radio transceiver ever sold. You may call them "Lego kits", but they took a bit more than that.
Also - there's no requirement to use "modern" gear. All that matters is reasonable signal quality.
Most of all, the US amateur radio license tests have always been very basic, and not near the level needed to design or build receivers and transmitters.
Regardless of skill level, the hobby can be enjoyed well as long as we are cooperative and respectful of each other. That and a little reading regarding the very, very, very basic operating rules we do have will carry the day.
Sure. But what should be done about those who aren't cooperative and respectful? And/or those who won't read not follow the basic rules?
73 de Jim, N2EY
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"99% is 99 out of 100
99.9% is 999 out of 1,000
99.99% is 9,999 out of 10,000
99.999% is 99,999 out of 100,000
99.9999% is 999,999 out of 1,000,000
99.99999% is 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000"
I see now what they mean about the math problems being so tough in the Extra class test! I'm just not ready for it yet, I guess! ;D ;D
Charlie
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"99% is 99 out of 100
99.9% is 999 out of 1,000
99.99% is 9,999 out of 10,000
99.999% is 99,999 out of 100,000
99.9999% is 999,999 out of 1,000,000
99.99999% is 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000"
I see now what they mean about the math problems being so tough in the Extra class test! I'm just not ready for it yet, I guess! ;D ;D
Charlie
Ya gotta watch out for the "theoretical physics" too!
Run Charlie, run! ;D
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"99% is 99 out of 100
99.9% is 999 out of 1,000
99.99% is 9,999 out of 10,000
99.999% is 99,999 out of 100,000
99.9999% is 999,999 out of 1,000,000
99.99999% is 9,999,999 out of 10,000,000"
I see now what they mean about the math problems being so tough in the Extra class test! I'm just not ready for it yet, I guess! ;D ;D
Charlie
Ya gotta watch out for the "theoretical physics" too!
Run Charlie, run! ;D
Good gracious, James!!! are you trying to tell me that they're now making fake Ex-Lax?? Is nothing sacred any more??
"Flabbergasted" Charlie
:-[ ::) :o ;D ;D
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Hi Jim (NE2Y):
You think I put in maybe one or two extra zeros in my estimate? OK, then I'll back down to just 99.99%. It's the same number for all practical purposes.
Regarding what to do with hams that misbehave ... well, laugh a bit and move on with life. Let the FCC, ARRL or whoever cares to police the airwaves. Plenty of bandwidth is mostly empty. Let's use it.
And remember the following two laws of survival:
1. Never be too literal
2. Never take anything too seriously
3. Pick a good brand of whisky, whiskey, brandy, cognac or wine and have at least one dose (shot) a day.
Ooops! That's three. 50% more than I claimed. Darn!
Oh well.
Brian - K6BRN
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Well put, Brian. I agree with numbers 1 and 2, but find that number 3 has been my way of getting restful, sleep filled nights! Although, I frankly must admit that my 'habit' started shortly after I accepted the fact that old age had taken control of certain "customs" of my life and a bedtime shot of Brandy and water has been a good substitute for "old ways" recently. LOL
But I ramble.
Alcoholism has been a factor in past generations which has made me very cautious with the subject. It surely does help sleepless nights, though.
Charlie
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According to statistics, 73.6% or all statistics are made up.
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According to statistics, 73.6% or all statistics are made up.
Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain) once wrote; "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics!"
Still true today!
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Welcome to a society where people want something without having to work for it...........Passing the Extra exam has NEVER been easier.
Tom KH0/KC0W
I agree, if I can pass the extra exam (2109) pretty much anyone can. My entire knowledge of electronic components and circuits would fit on a QSL card. It's also my understanding there are 12 year old extra's.
I WANT SOMETHING FOR NOTHING!!!
Give me, Give me, Give me!!!
"For willing to do a little work"
And there is the issue!
"it is too “technical”
Uhhhh.... this is a "technical" hobby!?!?!!!
I have NO problem with a no-code license(I came in as a no-code tech in 1991)
and I hated CW(but did it) but it should STILL be required, at LEAST for the Extra.
(13WPM Extra)
Again I agree. If you want extra privileges take the extra exam. Have we, the ARRL and the FCC not watered down the technical side of entering our hobby enough already?
I don't think for a second a code requirement is coming back but I do wish the FCC had kept some code requirement for the extra, even if it wasn't 20wpm. This is just my opinion but personally think every ham should have at least a working knowledge of CW.
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All along the Watchtower; can I get a Witness. ::)
:o
C
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"I don't think for a second a code requirement is coming back but I do wish the FCC had kept some code requirement for the extra, even if it wasn't 20wpm. This is just my opinion but personally think every ham should have at least a working knowledge of CW."
I truly believe that 5 WPM code should be a requirement for the "Big "one and, given time and a few QSO's, a love for it may just develop. Just saying:
Charlie
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Thanks Everyone for some really great comments and history lessons. I’m going to give it a shot, just got the “good book” delivered… 73! Andy
what a refreshing example you are setting by reading replies and adjusting your perspective on this!
One word of advice: do yourself a big favor and subscribe to -- www.hamtestonline.com (http://www.hamtestonline.com)
check out the free trial they offer, but just know this software is amazing. it tests you, then uses software to teach you in the areas you lack, retests you and adjusts accordingly. it makes studying engaging and fun and you will absolutely KNOW when you are ready to head to the VE to pass that Extra! (it also removes all costs of study materials other than the cost of a subscription!)
if you are still skeptical note that it offers a money-back guarantee -- read the eham reviews (when do you ever find so many hams agree on giving something 5 stars?)
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412 (https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412)
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Thanks Everyone for some really great comments and history lessons. I’m going to give it a shot, just got the “good book” delivered… 73! Andy
what a refreshing example you are setting by reading replies and adjusting your perspective on this!
One word of advice: do yourself a big favor and subscribe to -- www.hamtestonline.com (http://www.hamtestonline.com)
check out the free trial they offer, but just know this software is amazing. it tests you, then uses software to teach you in the areas you lack, retests you and adjusts accordingly. it makes studying engaging and fun and you will absolutely KNOW when you are ready to head to the VE to pass that Extra! (it also removes all costs of study materials other than the cost of a subscription!)
if you are still skeptical note that it offers a money-back guarantee -- read the eham reviews (when do you ever find so many hams agree on giving something 5 stars?)
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412 (https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412)
That is what my wife Linda, KA0NXI used. Best $35 spent on Extra class Study.
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what a refreshing example you are setting by reading replies and adjusting your perspective on this!
One word of advice: do yourself a big favor and subscribe to -- www.hamtestonline.com (http://www.hamtestonline.com)
check out the free trial they offer, but just know this software is amazing. it tests you, then uses software to teach you in the areas you lack, retests you and adjusts accordingly. it makes studying engaging and fun and you will absolutely KNOW when you are ready to head to the VE to pass that Extra! (it also removes all costs of study materials other than the cost of a subscription!)
if you are still skeptical note that it offers a money-back guarantee -- read the eham reviews (when do you ever find so many hams agree on giving something 5 stars?)
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412 (https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412)
I can concur that this is excellent advice. I used it to prepare for my extra exam.
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Thanks Everyone for some really great comments and history lessons. I’m going to give it a shot, just got the “good book” delivered… 73! Andy
what a refreshing example you are setting by reading replies and adjusting your perspective on this!
One word of advice: do yourself a big favor and subscribe to -- www.hamtestonline.com (http://www.hamtestonline.com)
check out the free trial they offer, but just know this software is amazing. it tests you, then uses software to teach you in the areas you lack, retests you and adjusts accordingly. it makes studying engaging and fun and you will absolutely KNOW when you are ready to head to the VE to pass that Extra! (it also removes all costs of study materials other than the cost of a subscription!)
if you are still skeptical note that it offers a money-back guarantee -- read the eham reviews (when do you ever find so many hams agree on giving something 5 stars?)
https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412 (https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=3412)
That is what my wife Linda, KA0NXI used. Best $35 spent on Extra class Study.
Check out the latest review for hamtestonline that she wrote.
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If I am correct it was the ARRL who petitioned the FCC for Incentive Licensing and the 'band segments'. It caused a major stir at the time and many left amateur radio. Even Wayne Greene of 73 Magazine refused to 'upgrade'. The sour part was demoting (seems the most recent licenses were demoted and those not tested in decades stayed the same) people who already had privileges and passed probably a harder test when they got the license.
Petitions to FCC to change what the ARRL did never went anywhere. Probably because the ARRL did not support such.
Time passes. Few remember those days.
I supported a CW test. The most simple way to communicate. If people understand music CW is hard ? How many variables in music ?
Everybodies brain is different I guess. Some of the smartest I would guess can not digest short and long tones. Yes. Society does not use it anymore. (wonder why ?)
To me digesting test questions does not permanent stay in ones brain. Some have short term memory. Me ? I can not remember anything from 5 minutes ago but remember everything from 50 years ago. Hey..the test pool expires by the time I remember it !! Once the test had no question-answer pool to remember. Had to travel to a FCC office. Extra's that got their license prior to mid-60's ?
Go surf CB videos on YouTube for example. Zero except AUDIO and a BIRD WATTMETER. The ones that have excellence are selling something to the CB world. I doubt many CB'ers know what a resistor is.
Inevitable. Lower the requirements for amateur radio and what do you get ? Now..tell me the Technician is hard ? Excuse me but some Techs drive me crazy. The repeater and can't wander anywhere. Why not surf the various bands like 6 or even 10 ? Do they have Novice Privileges ? I know no novice anymore but a few long and short tones and they could communicate worldwide BUT.NO..it is not in fashion...
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In my case it is not about wanting something for nothing. As a high school kid in 1961 I took public transportation into downtown Chicago and took my General test at the Federal Building administered by FCC employees in a controlled environment. I passed both the code and written exams on the first try and got full amateur privileges. Then later I was no longer "good enough" so some of the frequency allocations I earned were taken away. As a CW, SSB, and digital operator (I go back so far I had mechanical RTTY and AM for a while). I had 2M FM in my car so long ago a radio with sets of crystals for 6 repeaters was good and for 12 was great. I have had a HF station on the air every day (some minimalist some very nice) for the 61+ years I have been licensed. I don't care about -- will never operate -- modes where Doppler effect matters and I'll never program Adriano or Raspberry pi. Yet for some reason I should memorize crap and pretend I know about them. I took and passed a genuine exam for modes I operate for 60+ years and Elmer lots of guys who "memorized the book" but cannot even get a plug and play station up and running. How many adds are in QST for prefabbed dipoles? How often do we see posts asking "how big a battery do I need to power my portable station?" These days we let criminals with multiple convictions for felonies out without bail -- how about a 76 year old guy getting grandfathered into the full frequency allocations he earned long ago? Who is a greater threat to society and "law and order"?
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In my day we walked up hill (both ways) in snow and rain. We had to crap in an unheated outhouse and use leaves to wipe.
Blah, blah, blah....
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In my day we walked up hill (both ways) in snow and rain. We had to crap in an unheated outhouse and use leaves to wipe.
Blah, blah, blah....
LOL. It's amazing how geology changes with the time of day and direction we walk!
Wait...unheated outhouse? You mean everyone doesn't have one? I am shocked!
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There is no such thing as General license band restrictions. There are General Class license band privileges, just like there are Extra Class license privileges.
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There is no such thing as General license band restrictions. There are General Class license band privileges, just like there are Extra Class license privileges.
Well said!
+1
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In my day we walked up hill (both ways) in snow and rain. We had to crap in an unheated outhouse and use leaves to wipe.
Blah, blah, blah....
LOL. It's amazing how geology changes with the time of day and direction we walk!
Wait...unheated outhouse? You mean everyone doesn't have one? I am shocked!
It's true. You have no idea how good you had it.😁
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It's called incentive licensing. If you don't have the discipline or knowledge to upgrade , which is not that difficult, you really don't need the additional band privileges.
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It makes no sense to me, but I don't have to live with it! Our more junior class of licence are limited in power, not frequency or mode - which seems to make car more sense
Martin G8FXC
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You just cannot make this stuff up!!! This like watching a show on TV.
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It's called incentive licensing. If you don't have the discipline or knowledge to upgrade , which is not that difficult, you really don't need the additional band privileges.
If all it does is give you a little sliver of space to hang out with the arrogant and self-righteous, who would want it anyway?
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What more do you want as General class? You've invented the time machine!
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According to statistics, 73.6% or all statistics are made up.
Samuel Clemens ( Mark Twain) once wrote; "there are lies, damn lies, and statistics!"
Still true today!
Hmm,
We'd be almost nowhere in this modern world without statistics!!!!
https://www.worldofstatistics.org/statistics-as-a-career/statisticians-at-work/ (https://www.worldofstatistics.org/statistics-as-a-career/statisticians-at-work/)
73 8)
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It's called incentive licensing. If you don't have the discipline or knowledge to upgrade , which is not that difficult, you really don't need the additional band privileges.
If all it does is give you a little sliver of space to hang out with the arrogant and self-righteous, who would want it anyway?
Obviously you've never listened to Extra Class conversations. If you believe all extra class operators are arrogant and self righteous, you haven't listened much. You'd be surprised on what you could learn, it's a very large knowledge pool.
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It's called incentive licensing. If you don't have the discipline or knowledge to upgrade , which is not that difficult, you really don't need the additional band privileges.
If all it does is give you a little sliver of space to hang out with the arrogant and self-righteous, who would want it anyway?
Obviously you've never listened to Extra Class conversations. If you believe all extra class operators are arrogant and self righteous, you haven't listened much. You'd be surprised on what you could learn, it's a very large knowledge pool.
Very Large like a cesspool....I've heard my share. But, if you say so I'll pat you on the back and give you an attaboy.
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Nothing wrong with incentive licensing - to get something you have to accomplish something relevant. And that bar is already set so low, with multiple choice question pools open to everyone, that it's simply a filter that blocks those who want something ... for nothing.
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Nothing wrong with incentive licensing - to get something you have to accomplish something relevant. And that bar is already set so low, with multiple choice question pools open to everyone, that it's simply a filter that blocks those who want something ... for nothing.
+1
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I think this covers it rather well..." Society is being dumbed down by an unfortunate trend of valuing feelings and appearances over facts and utility or moral rectitude. People are encouraged by social pressure not to pursue the discovery of truth or to act according to empirical evidence or factual knowledge".
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If I am correct it was the ARRL who petitioned the FCC for Incentive Licensing and the 'band segments'.
Not really. The story is much more complicated.
In 1963 the ARRL proposed that the rules be changed back to the way they were before February 1953. Under that original proposal, the Advanced license would be reopened to new privileges, and it would require an Advanced or Extra license to operate 'phone modes on the amateur bands between 2.5 and 25 MHz - just as it had before the changes of Feb '53 gave away all privileges to Generals and Conditionals.
The 1963 ARRL proposal also included that the changes would have been phased in over several years, to give amateurs a chance to upgrade without losing any privileges. All it would take to keep full privileges was to pass the Advanced written test - one test of about 50 questions on theory and regulations. (I passed the Advanced at age 14 in the summer of 1968, between 8th and 9th grade, and it wasn't difficult at all.)
The 1963 ARRL proposal caused other groups and individuals to write their own proposals, and within a year or so there were at least 10 different proposals to change the license structure. One of them - NOT the ARRL proposal - involved subbands-by-license-class.
FCC took a bit of this and a bit of that and in 1965 or so released their proposal, which went much farther than what ARRL had proposed. Under that proposal, the Advanced would be replaced by a new "Amateur First" class license, with 16 wpm code and a new written exam, existing Advanceds would be demoted to General, and full privileges would require an Extra. Also, everyone's callsign would indicate their license class, and you'd get a new callsign every time you upgraded. Some callsigns would only be available to old-timers licensed before 1932.
ARRL and others then had the task of getting FCC to tone down the proposal, and most of the worst parts were removed. The final form went into effect in 1968.
What sparked all this was the perception that US hams were falling behind their Soviet counterparts in technology and operating skills. Remember that the early 1960s were a time of "Sputnik fever", the Cold War, and JFK's "New Frontier" mindset.
That's the short history, there's a lot more detail.
It caused a major stir at the time and many left amateur radio.
A few may have left. But most stayed - and once the new system was in place, our numbers grew and grew.
Even Wayne Greene of 73 Magazine refused to 'upgrade'.
Ol' Wayne had an Advanced when all the fuss started. Under "incentive licensing" he didn't lose many privileges. If the original 1963 proposal had been enacted, he wouldn't have lost any.
He was a slick con artist who never let facts or sound reasoning get in the way of selling his magazines.
The sour part was demoting (seems the most recent licenses were demoted and those not tested in decades stayed the same) people who already had privileges and passed probably a harder test when they got the license.
NO.
Where do you get such ideas?
No one was "demoted". Everyone kept their existing license.
What DID happen was that Generals, Conditionals and Advanceds lost SOME privileges. That's all. And those privileges could be regained by passing a test or two.
Claims that the old tests were "harder" are easily disproved by looking at the study guides of old License Manuals.
The REAL problem was one of "entitlement mindset". A lot of hams back then had been licensed after 1953. They'd started as Novices, learned just enough code and theory to get a General or Conditional, then sat back and said to themselves "I'm ENTITLED to FULL privileges FOREVER".
The idea that they might have to pass another test or two terrified them.
Petitions to FCC to change what the ARRL did never went anywhere. Probably because the ARRL did not support such.
Nope. Wrong again.
The ARRL didn't change the rules, FCC did. And FCC kept on changing them, widening the 'phone subbands, adding privileges, and making other changes.
Time passes. Few remember those days.
Even fewer remember them accurately. I was there, I remember - and I've researched the history and written about it.
I supported a CW test. The most simple way to communicate. If people understand music CW is hard ? How many variables in music ?
The FCC started phasing out CW testing in the 1970s. The ARRL opposed the changes but FCC kept persisting. The last remnant of CW testing disappeared 15 years ago.
brain is different I guess. Some of the smartest I would guess can not digest short and long tones. Yes. Society does not use it anymore. (wonder why ?)
Commercial applications stopped using Morse Code decades ago because it cost them money. Amateurs use it all the time.
Do YOU use Morse Code on the air? Ever?
To me digesting test questions does not permanent stay in ones brain. Some have short term memory. Me ? I can not remember anything from 5 minutes ago but remember everything from 50 years ago. Hey..the test pool expires by the time I remember it !!
Is that why you never upgraded?
Once the test had no question-answer pool to remember. Had to travel to a FCC office. Extra's that got their license prior to mid-60's ?
The question-answer pools became public in the early 1980s, when the VEC system was created. That was FCC's idea, to save money.
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K7TAR is essentially demanding his "participation award" for learning and/or doing NOTHING.
The fact that you think the ARRL sets the license criteria demonstrates WHY the FCC needs to set higher standards and reward those who pass with more spectrum.
The Extra is not all that difficult, so put in a little effort for once and go pass it.
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The Extra is not all that difficult, so put in a little effort for once and go pass it.
Yea it's not difficult. I passed it...LOL
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And then there are those of us that enjoy "tinkering", but not wanting to dive in too far over our heads in formulas, etc, but just having fun while learning. The perfect ticket in that case would be the General. (At age 88 I don't think one is too likely to grab a license manual and start studying. Hi.) In my case, it's perfect and I'm able to do what I enjoy, "tinkering".
In my earlier years I was able to build a nice transmitter with a pair of 807's that kept me smiling as I worked 47 states on CW. Today I'm happy just heating up the soldering pencil and digging into the present project, (For how long??? We'll cross that bridge when we get to it! LOL)
Charlie
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Was a day that I considered it worth the effort years ago mostly when I used the bottom part of 80. I am an Extra, with code. I no longer believe its worth the effort any longer considering the upgrade and gaining little advantage of having it. I have not looked the the test close to 20 years and am certain I could not pass it today. So what's the point? Im 50%CW and the balance SSB. I always have been a proponent of the CW being a part of the hobby but as we know its all voluntary today also. I know a lot of quality General Ops. who should have full band privileges, I know Extras that should not have any. Ultimately one class of license will probably be the law of the land like it or not. 73 Rich
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For maximizing one's score in CW contesting on 80, 40, 20 and 15 meters an Extra Class license is mandatory. And most DX operates in the lower 25 kHz of the band.
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Ultimately one class of license will probably be the law of the land like it or not. 73 Rich
There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
Martin (G8FXC)
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Ultimately one class of license will probably be the law of the land like it or not. 73 Rich
There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
Martin (G8FXC)
Let's not forget there are a number of bands where all classes of US license holders can communicate. I frequently have conversations with new hams on the local 440 repeater network. There's another solution for having only one class of license...make the Extra class test the only test.
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".make the Extra class test the only test."
If that were the case, in 1963, with my love of "tinkering", I probably wouldn't be a ham today. Most of us, (I'm assuming), would have gotten involved in another hobby.
There are so many different phases of ham radio that have very little to do with needing that kind of knowledge that I seriously doubt ham radio would survive. (I could be wrong) So many of us "normal IQ'ers" wouldn't pass such a roadblock, I'm afraid. (And, again, I could be wrong.)
I have no desire to experiment with UHF, bouncing signals off the moon, etc and consequently, I'd surely flunk such an exam. My love is just tinkering and not getting into lofty equations, etc.
(Besides, at age 88, where would I get the gray cells to even take such a test? LOL)
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".make the Extra class test the only test."
If that were the case, in 1963, with my love of "tinkering", I probably wouldn't be a ham today. Most of us, (I'm assuming), would have gotten involved in another hobby.
There are so many different phases of ham radio that have very little to do with needing that kind of knowledge that I seriously doubt ham radio would survive. (I could be wrong) So many of us "normal IQ'ers" wouldn't pass such a roadblock, I'm afraid. (And, again, I could be wrong.)
I have no desire to experiment with UHF, bouncing signals off the moon, etc and consequently, I'd surely flunk such an exam. My love is just tinkering and not getting into lofty equations, etc.
(Besides, at age 88, where would I get the gray cells to even take such a test? LOL)
I have very little background in electronics and it took me 3 times to pass the Extra theory (mostly math). As with all the tests starting with the Novice exam in 1959, I felt the reward was well worth the effort. I've learned far more about the technical and other aspects after taking the test. Well at least the "I can't do the code" excuse has gone the way of the 15 cent hamburger.
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...
Ultimately one class of license will probably be the law of the land like it or not. 73 Rich
There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
Martin (G8FXC)
Let's not forget there are a number of bands where all classes of US license holders can communicate. I frequently have conversations with new hams on the local 440 repeater network.....
The trouble with that is that it requires an active effort from the higher class operators to go to the frequencies where they can communicate with the juniors - and most of the common ground is either on CW, which is not that commonly used by most higher class operators, or VHF/UHF which is limited range and, again, not popular with people that have the right to use HF.
Martin (G8FXC)
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I've worked my way through Crystal sets, TRF, a little time with Superhets and Regen's, and after 25 years away from the "sport" I have discovered Direct Conversion, where I've settled for a spell.
<Hidden text> Judas Priest, Griggs!! You're 88 years old! What kind of a spell do you think you've still got!!!<end text> LOL
The General test gives me all the elbow room I need or want. I'm satisfied and content!
I'm kind of sorry for the newbies that missed out on the radio fun of the 50's and 60's when every discovery was a wonderful new feeling for the hobby. Perhaps that feeling still exists, but is it the same? I wonder. (I guess one doesn't miss what one never had.) If I keep this up, I'll bust out in tears! LOL
Charlie
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There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
The FCC probably settled on frequency and sub bands to separate the license grades, as it's easy to tell if a general is using extra privs. You look at the receive frequency on the radio. It's way harder to tell if someone is exceeding a permitted power level.
I saw in the May QST a caution on avoiding being outside your license's privs. They should mention that you can avoid this problem if you get your extra.
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There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
The FCC probably settled on frequency and sub bands to separate the license grades, as it's easy to tell if a general is using extra privs. You look at the receive frequency on the radio. It's way harder to tell if someone is exceeding a permitted power level.
I saw in the May QST a caution on avoiding being outside your license's privs. They should mention that you can avoid this problem if you get your extra.
Those kinds of snarky comments make me want to give an Extra a 4 by 5 instead of a true 5 by 9 signal report, just to deflate his ego.
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I saw in the May QST a caution on avoiding being outside your license's privs. They should mention that you can avoid this problem if you get your extra.
But you still need to be careful when you run close to the band edges. Too close and your bandwidth could go out of band. And thats true of any class license.
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There's nothing wrong with having multiple licence classes - my problem with the US system is the apartheid that it enforces. By all means limit your junior classes in terms of power output, possibly deny them access to the more esoteric bands where they could hurt themselves or others with microwave radiation, but why on earth stop them talking to the senior licence class operators from whom they could actually learn something useful?
Darn, busted! You are right, I sit on the extra-only slices of the bands just specifically so I do not need to talk to technician or general class licenses.
In fact, I pretend that nothing even exists above 30 MHz.
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"I do not need to talk to technician or general class licenses."
By Jinks, you must be the Wicked Witch of the West! Some of us Gen's are decent people! (Not myself included, but I do try!) LOL
Charlie
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"I do not need to talk to technician or general class licenses."
By Jinks, you must be the Wicked Witch of the West! Some of us Gen's are decent people! (Not myself included, but I do try!) LOL
Charlie
No Charlie he is really more like the Wizard of Oz only he hides behind a radio instead of a curtain. In reality he is just a little frail man who tries to bully people just like the Wizard.
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Oh, Oh, John!! You may be in trouble!! LOL
"Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama"
Charlie
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Oh, Oh, John!! You may be in trouble!! LOL
"Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama"
Charlie
MS., Ya don’t say. LOL
Well the prefix is as uppity as the elitist attitude.
You really don’t think I care if I offend a person who offends every Technician, General and Advanced license holder, do you?
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Oh, Oh, John!! You may be in trouble!! LOL
"Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA
Lookout Mountain, Alabama"
Charlie
MS., Ya don’t say. LOL
Well the prefix is as uppity as the elitist attitude.
You really don’t think I care if I offend a person who offends every Technician, General and Advanced license holder, do you?
Class warfare at its best...operator class that is!
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I went to Buffalo, N.Y. to take the General test in 63, I believe. (Any way to check that??) I enjoyed CW so much that I stuck with it and was operating in the low 20 WPM's until the need to vacate for about 25 years. Getting back into the fray I more or less stuck with tinkering and haven't sent a word since but, still, I love CW.
Charlie
On edit: I must admit, I also enjoy the friendly bantering of this group. LOL
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I made extra back in 1985. I still like to hang out on the old 40 meter novice band. (Although, it shrunk a bit a while back. It *was* 7100-7150. Now it's 7100-7125.)
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Dog-gone it, UAA! You've kindled my CW spirit! I'm thinking I may just try my luck on 40 tonight!!! Only "He" knows what my speed is anymore, but I'm sure going to try it again. I'll probably start off 5-10 wpm and see what happens. (Hoping I'll still be able to copy at that speed again. LOL LOL
Charlie
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No Charlie he is really more like the Wizard of Oz only he hides behind a radio instead of a curtain. In reality he is just a little frail man who tries to bully people just like the Wizard.
"Ignore that man behind the curtain, he's just the IT guy trying to fix the network router!" :D
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Have I considered passing the Extra exam? Yes. And decided against it - it is too “technical”
Interesting, any moron with an application fee can pass the EXTRA test. Takes ZERO knowledge. Download the questions answer and take the test on-line stupid. The whole license process is a joke along with the hobby. 99% of hams do not know the difference between an Ohm and a Drone.
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Interesting, any moron with an application fee can pass the EXTRA test. Takes ZERO knowledge. Download the questions answer and take the test on-line stupid. The whole license process is a joke along with the hobby. 99% of hams do not know the difference between an Ohm and a Drone.
Hi Brad (AI5BC):
I think you're being just a little pessimistic. About 32 million Americans (~10%) can't read, so take them off the table. And some of them aren't morons (old-style IQ of about 50-70) - just uneducated or blind. So right off the bat, 90% of the population already can't be in the "...Download the questions answer and take the test on-line stupid" range. See? It's already a selective test.
Then there are those darn engineers and scientists. You know, the ones with training: BSEE, MSEE, Ph.D. EE and similar. Lots of THOSE in amateur radio. Quite a few physicists of various sorts, too. Like Joe Taylor, JT65/JT9/FT9 developer/inventor and Nobel Prize winner. Many have P.E licenses as well and know the difference between an Ohm and Mho. Not too shabby. LOTS of them out my way in AeroSpaceLand. Let's just ballpark them at 30% of the radio amateur crowd, with absolutely no supporting data (seems natural, today).
So now we're down to less than 70% who COULD be morons. And morons are RARE - less than 2% of the general population. Morons who can read, write and take tests are even more rare - and you have to applaud them for their achievements, given the barriers they face. So maybe ham radio only gets the very best morons, which would seem to be OK. But I digress...
Next, we have the BS or better, non-engineering "professional" crowd. You know - English teachers, real estate agents, art history majors, economics grads who go into business, wealth management and trading. Not morons by any means - just interested in ham radio for no other reason other than that it's "cool". And they have a proven ability to learn at an advanced level and usually do. Their diplomas and earning ability which enables them to buy $5,000 worth of radio gear proves it. Because this category is so very broad, lets say another 30% live in it. Now we're down to at least 40% of hams who aren't REALLY morons, though some might pretend to be, particularly on social media.
Next there are the "Techs" - 2-year degree holders and those with SOME technology training - at least enough to earn the cash to buy radios, antennas, homes, etc. You know the type, right? I'm SURE they're good for AT LEAST another 30%. But they're VERY vocal and SOUND like 75% - but we'll ignore that.
OK. So maybe as much as 10% of Radio Amateurs might be be literal morons - not just "acting morons". Or none at all. Given that the general population is made up of 2% morons, I tend to think that at least 98% of all radio amateurs are not literal "morons". Unless someone's lining morons up and forcing them to take the test. Who knows - we live in strange times.
So, with just a little work and some solid sideways logic and hard speculation, we've gone from maybe 99% of radio amateurs being morons, as you implied, to just 2% or less in that category. At least on the air. Social media is another situation altogether.
Isn't it wonderful what you can do with just a little thought and optimism? :)
Brian - K6BRN
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Isn't it wonderful what you can do with just a little thought and optimism? :)
Brian - K6BRN
Wow Brian, for once we agree on something!
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Isn't it wonderful what you can do with just a little thought and optimism? :)
Brian - K6BRN
Wow Brian, for once we agree on something!
Virtual "High Five", Stan!
Brian - K6BRN
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Hey! Hey! Hey, you guys! None of that hugging and kissing on this thread!! LOL
Charlie
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Im a general, yes going for expert,
all the while re studying morse, actively participating in the fire department, volunteering and teaching electronics, and electrical safety, welding, carpentry and woodworking, masonry, plumbing, hvac, computer repair and coding, and sign language.
in general i am an extremely busy person
by the way Im Retired and i have an IQ of 177
does that make me a moron?
i have seen this argument so many times on different forums by trolls attempting influence the fcc into selling more of our bandwidth
if you want to use the bands allotted to extra, earn the right!Pass the damn test and quit B!t(Hing about it
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Unbelievable, this thread has been going for over a year.
I got my Extra at age twelve in 1961. The technical was easy but the code required a bit if work. I guess it is against the prevailing wisdom to work for something.
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Unbelievable, this thread has been going for over a year.
I got my Extra at age twelve in 1961. The technical was easy but the code required a bit if work. I guess it is against the prevailing wisdom to work for something.
;Di know what you mean!
ive seen the same argument in so many places its actually ridiculous,
but then again ive also seen similar type posts on numerous firefighter forums about imposing strict physical performance regulations on all of its members ( and canning the older members who couldn't perform to their ridiculous high standards)
turns out they were insurance shills trying to influence community leaders into disbanding volunteer departments.
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Seems like we have someone wanting to skirt requirments to get everything handed to them. I worked for my Extra, I've come up through the CW years as a Novice, Tech(General class theory), General (13 wpm) and Advanced, which was the hardest of the tests! You get nothing handed to you, work for it, like everyone else has in the past. The current Extra is a comic book compared to the old Extra!
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Yes, a lot of us came up from Novice. I got my Novice in 1965, but I was content with my band allocation and didn't bother getting my Extra until 1999. I took the Tech and General written tests, plus the 13 WPM Morse test in a single VE session. Then, about 2 months later, I took the Advanced and Extra written tests, plus the 20 WPM Morse test in another single VE session. Personally, I didn't find any of the written tests very difficult, but some hams do. For me, the CW tests took a bit of studying.
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The whole Amateur licensing process is a joke. Any moron with $35 can be an Extra Classw. Takes no education or age requirements. You download the test questions, and you are a ham radio operator. My 13-year-old nephew downloaded the test questions, a week later was an Extra class sammy. Does no t know anything about the hobby and even less about electronics and electricity. In the professional industry, there is no respect for hams.
We have a few hams like me in the company, but we know sammy hammy ways are antiquated and 50 years behind in knowledge and technology. Most ham practices do not comply with any known electrical codes or practices. Elmers practices are dangerous and a threat to public safety. Most of you still tell clueless newbies to bring the coax directly to the shack and stick a rod in the dirt thinking it does something good. If you only knew how dangerous and stupid that practice is. Great for the idiots who sell you magic ferrite beads and doughnuts trying to fix all the RFI/EMI problems it causes, does nothing to remove you from the ground loop you placed yourself in begging for lightning and high voltage utility to teach your ignorant souls.
Think of it this way. would you want your pilot or doctor licensing and practices to match sammy hammy? No educational requirements, no proof of demonstrated skill, just a cheat sheet with all the test question answers and $35.
OK boomer elmer, chew on that rag.
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The whole Amateur licensing process is a joke. Any moron with $35 can be an Extra Classw. Takes no education or age requirements. You download the test questions, and you are a ham radio operator. My 13-year-old nephew downloaded the test questions, a week later was an Extra class sammy. Does no t know anything about the hobby and even less about electronics and electricity. In the professional industry, there is no respect for hams.
We have a few hams like me in the company, but we know sammy hammy ways are antiquated and 50 years behind in knowledge and technology. Most ham practices do not comply with any known electrical codes or practices. Elmers practices are dangerous and a threat to public safety. Most of you still tell clueless newbies to bring the coax directly to the shack and stick a rod in the dirt thinking it does something good. If you only knew how dangerous and stupid that practice is. Great for the idiots who sell you magic ferrite beads and doughnuts trying to fix all the RFI/EMI problems it causes, does nothing to remove you from the ground loop you placed yourself in begging for lightning and high voltage utility to teach your ignorant souls.
Think of it this way. would you want your pilot or doctor licensing and practices to match sammy hammy? No educational requirements, no proof of demonstrated skill, just a cheat sheet with all the test question answers and $35.
OK boomer elmer, chew on that rag.
EXACTLY THE POINT! Read the theory, study the code. I was elmered by W8YBO (sk), back in 60's. Novice was a two year deal, upgrade or lose your ticket.
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The whole Amateur licensing process is a joke. Any moron with $35 can be an Extra Classw. Takes no education or age requirements. You download the test questions, and you are a ham radio operator. My 13-year-old nephew downloaded the test questions, a week later was an Extra class sammy. Does no t know anything about the hobby and even less about electronics and electricity. In the professional industry, there is no respect for hams.
We have a few hams like me in the company, but we know sammy hammy ways are antiquated and 50 years behind in knowledge and technology. Most ham practices do not comply with any known electrical codes or practices. Elmers practices are dangerous and a threat to public safety. Most of you still tell clueless newbies to bring the coax directly to the shack and stick a rod in the dirt thinking it does something good. If you only knew how dangerous and stupid that practice is. Great for the idiots who sell you magic ferrite beads and doughnuts trying to fix all the RFI/EMI problems it causes, does nothing to remove you from the ground loop you placed yourself in begging for lightning and high voltage utility to teach your ignorant souls.
Think of it this way. would you want your pilot or doctor licensing and practices to match sammy hammy? No educational requirements, no proof of demonstrated skill, just a cheat sheet with all the test question answers and $35.
OK boomer elmer, chew on that rag.
EXACTLY THE POINT! Read the theory, study the code. I was elmered by W8YBO (sk), back in 60's. Novice was a two year deal, upgrade or lose your ticket.
While ive only been licenced for just over a year im no stranger to electricity.
Ive been an electrician over 40 years master for more than 20.
There are differences in electrical and rf grounding confuses a lot of people.
Ist and foremost follow the code, its there for a reason.
Lightning arresters are cheap, following code and rules is cheap,
A funeral however is not cheap
Niether is replacing structures and equipment insurance won't cover for non compliance.
I have both paper and digital copies of arrl handbooks and fcc regs, as well as a lot of of documentation.
But thats me!
I dont know what others do though.
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When it came time to try for my Extra I attended classes offered by one of the local ham clubs. Learned a lot by attending the six week class. Along with hitting the bookes at home and putting in the study time passed the test with no problem.
Was it easy, NO WAY! Was it worth it, HELL YES!
Phil, K8PJM
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Think of it this way. would you want your pilot or doctor licensing and practices to match sammy hammy? No educational requirements, no proof of demonstrated skill, just a cheat sheet with all the test question answers and $35.
Neither a pilot or a doctor has the word "Amateur" on their license. But I do wonder why a doctor has a "practice" and they "practice" medicine. Who are they practicing on?