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eHam Forums => Repeaters => Topic started by: KC8LMA on December 02, 2021, 06:45:54 AM

Title: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KC8LMA on December 02, 2021, 06:45:54 AM
Hello,

Awhile back I recall that there were some solid state 2m repeaters coming out of China with some decent prices on them (I can't speak for the quality of them). Would anyone on the forums happen to have any information on possibly what brands these might be? At the time I didn't take note of what they were and of course now, when I need the information, I can't remember anything.

Thank you in advance
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K7LZR on December 02, 2021, 07:44:15 AM
I don't know about those from China, maybe good maybe bad. But if you want a good, reliable repeater then go with a good used Motorola such as the GR300.....
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: N0ETR on December 02, 2021, 11:45:18 AM
I don't know how you want to use your repeater, or how much power out you need, but RETEVIS makes a portable repeater that has it's own duplexer built in, and is tunable from 136 to 174MHZ. It is advertised as a 10 watt unit but by the time that 10 watts goes through the duplexer you loose about 3 Db for an output of 5 watts. The cost is $364.99.
If you go to youtube and type in NOTARUBICON, there is a guy that has done a demonstration of the unit and explains all of the hook ups. I will let you look up the video to hear more about duty cycles and usage. The guy is kind of non ham and is a GMRS guy. If you can stand to listen to him, the video has good info. If 5 watts won't cut it you may be able to add an amplifier. You said you wanted cheap so this could be an option. Go to retevis.com for more info.
73
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K3XR on December 02, 2021, 12:29:51 PM
Here is some information you may find helpful .

https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9804093.pdf (https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9804093.pdf)
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6AER on December 02, 2021, 08:03:40 PM
Most repeaters are going for days without any one even kerchunking them.  Why would anyone put up a new repeater?
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K0UA on December 02, 2021, 08:31:08 PM
Most repeaters are going for days without any one even kerchunking them.  Why would anyone put up a new repeater?

There should be a rule:  Three repeaters must be taken off the air before a new one can be installed. :)
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K4JJL on December 19, 2021, 10:42:19 AM
The radios aren't the expensive parts in VHF repeater systems.  It's the duplexer.  Make sure that whatever duplexer you get, it needs to function w/ a 600k split.  Most commercial models are 2 MHz or greater splits.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KG4RUL on December 20, 2021, 05:01:11 AM
Once you have selected and purchased the repeater and duplexer, the REALLY hard part begins -  the antenna system.  The antenna itself, the structure to mount it on (as high as possible), low-loss cox to feed it and lightning/surge protection.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6CPO on December 20, 2021, 03:50:10 PM
Most repeaters are going for days without any one even kerchunking them.  Why would anyone put up a new repeater?

Not to mention obtaining a frequency pair and getting it coordinated would be next to impossible.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K0UA on December 21, 2021, 01:18:47 PM
So remember, do your part to make things right, get those 3 repeaters OFF the air before you put yours on, and this solves the frequency coordination AND the procurement of workable equipment. (use one of the 3 you got to go off the air). Do it right, be part of the solution, not part of the problem. :) 

Personally I don't know why anyone would want to put up a repeater........or be a Navy diver for that matter.  :)
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6CPO on December 22, 2021, 02:43:24 PM
So remember, do your part to make things right, get those 3 repeaters OFF the air before you put yours on, and this solves the frequency coordination AND the procurement of workable equipment. (use one of the 3 you got to go off the air). Do it right, be part of the solution, not part of the problem. :) 

Personally I don't know why anyone would want to put up a repeater........or be a Navy diver for that matter.  :)

It sorta just happened.  My CO said we needed a couple of divers in my unit and I suggested we send a couple of our own people to dive school.  His reply was "Good idea. You want to go?"  How could I refuse?  Now, if he had suggested jump school, I would have declined. Never jump out of a perfectly good airplane...
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K0UA on December 23, 2021, 01:34:51 PM
"I don't know why anybody would want to be a navy diver"

That was a line from a movie about a navy diver.  I would seem that being a navy diver was a pretty hard avocation. We thank you for your service, and the hardships I am sure you went thru to help protect our freedom. 73  James
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6BRN on December 23, 2021, 02:18:43 PM
John:

FB on being a Navy diver - and kudos to you for your achievement.  It's a challenging specialty.  My older brother was a UDT frogman back in the '70's and taught me to dive.

Had a chuckle over your QRZ page though:

"What I do in ham radio is of no concern to anyone on this forum."

Okee dokee.  Well ... why have a QRZ page, then?  :)

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KB8VUL on December 27, 2021, 01:09:59 PM
Find a couple CDM 750 Motorola radios and the back to back cable to go between them.
Get them programmed up and find a decent duplexer and try that out. 
You will need it to CW ID every ten minutes but there are a number of Raspberry Pi and Arduino setups that will do that part.

Once you have that going, if you want more buy more. If you find out that it's not worth the effort, then you will have spend considerably less money than you would have to buy an MTR or similar.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: N2AYM on December 28, 2021, 06:07:25 AM
From what I understand Maggiore is still in business and operates
out of Coatesville, PA - they made a pretty good repeater(Hi Pro E)

Maggiore Electronic Lab
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K1FBI on January 12, 2022, 05:32:13 AM
John:

FB on being a Navy diver - and kudos to you for your achievement.  It's a challenging specialty.  My older brother was a UDT frogman back in the '70's and taught me to dive.

Had a chuckle over your QRZ page though:

"What I do in ham radio is of no concern to anyone on this forum."

Okee dokee.  Well ... why have a QRZ page, then?  :)

Brian - K6BRN
My girl taught me to dive; my UDT friend taught me how to make things go BOOM. 😊
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: W1BR on February 02, 2022, 07:00:03 PM
Frank Maggiore passed away over 20 years ago,  and his son Paul ran the business for several years until closing their doors.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: N2AYM on February 03, 2022, 09:59:46 AM
Frank Maggiore passed away over 20 years ago,  and his son Paul ran the business for several years until closing their doors.

I spoke to Darina Maggiore the Owner in August 2019 and as of then they were still in business.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: W2NAP on February 17, 2022, 07:35:42 PM
Frank Maggiore passed away over 20 years ago,  and his son Paul ran the business for several years until closing their doors.

I spoke to Darina Maggiore the Owner in August 2019 and as of then they were still in business.

if they was still in business you would think they would have a website up, yet they do not.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KG4RUL on February 18, 2022, 04:05:15 AM
Frank Maggiore passed away over 20 years ago,  and his son Paul ran the business for several years until closing their doors.

I spoke to Darina Maggiore the Owner in August 2019 and as of then they were still in business.

In these pandemic times, almost three years is an eternity.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: LA9XNA on February 18, 2022, 04:48:42 AM
Hello,

Awhile back I recall that there were some solid state 2m repeaters coming out of China with some decent prices on them (I can't speak for the quality of them). Would anyone on the forums happen to have any information on possibly what brands these might be? At the time I didn't take note of what they were and of course now, when I need the information, I can't remember anything.

Thank you in advance

Many of these smaller repeaters require a wider split than what is used in ham radio.
If you look at Icom repeaters like the IC-FR5000 and IC-FR6000 series they have a minimum split of 3Mhz. They would be usable in US because they have higher split than in Region 1 (0,6Mhz on 2m and 2Mhz on 70cm).

If you decide going for something out of China be sure to check the minimum repeater split.
It might be cheeper to build the repeater from two secondhand mobile radios and then you will not have the same issues with the split.
To get better isolation between TX and RX you can have separate filters, coaxes up to the antennas.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6CPO on February 18, 2022, 11:36:45 AM
John:

FB on being a Navy diver - and kudos to you for your achievement.  It's a challenging specialty.  My older brother was a UDT frogman back in the '70's and taught me to dive.

Had a chuckle over your QRZ page though:

"What I do in ham radio is of no concern to anyone on this forum."

Okee dokee.  Well ... why have a QRZ page, then?  :)

Brian - K6BRN

That's been changed.  It was a retort for some of the curmudgeons over there who feel the need to look up everyone's call sign and then question their role in ham radio.  As far as having a QRZ page is concerned, it comes with the territory.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K6BRN on February 18, 2022, 12:16:37 PM
That's been changed.  It was a retort for some of the curmudgeons over there who feel the need to look up everyone's call sign and then question their role in ham radio.  As far as having a QRZ page is concerned, it comes with the territory.

Hi John (K6CPO):

Amateur Radio is a hobby and whatever you do with it and how you enjoy it, within its limits, is purely up to you.  It's seems to be human nature that many try and establish a pecking order in any organization or forum - which in the case of our shared hobby is pretty humorous.  As a social function, I DO enjoy looking up people on their QRZ pages, just to see what their interests are.  Lots of fascinating people in this hobby.  I've made friends with quite a few.  And avoid others.

So, in the end, no worries.  It's a hobby.

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 18, 2022, 06:32:22 PM

There should be a rule:  Three repeaters must be taken off the air before a new one can be installed. :)

No, a repeater should have a minimum amount of logged use by individuals OTHER than the license holder with their callsign attached to the repeater in order to maintain coordination of the pair at minimum and in truth for the repeater to be on the air. 

And there needs to be pairs set aside that are coordinated for 6 months or a year to verify there will be continued use of A repeater pair before full coordination is granted to a semi-permanent pair that then would need to log the above minimum requirement to remain coordinated and active. 

There are TOO many repeaters on the air currently as it is.  Many have poor overall coverage and are poorly maintained but the trustees have decided it's THEIR frequency pair and they ain't coming off it. Problem is that coordination has to be maintained equally for all pairs in use.  Meaning the guy with the VHF repeater that is 800 foot in the air running 300 watts and has 12 receive sites gets the same treatment that the guy with a 20 foot pole in his side yard and a couple old radios duct taped together and an R-Pi repeater controller.  One of these things is NOT like the other.


Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 18, 2022, 06:34:22 PM
Oh yeah,,,, and a SOLID STATE repeater ??? ??? ???
Sorry dude, but I really don't think that term would apply any more. 
Thought that stuff was done in the 70's when everything went to transistors
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: WA3SKN on February 19, 2022, 09:08:41 AM
To the original poster...
"Affordable"?... what's your budget?

-Mike.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K4JJL on February 25, 2022, 04:54:58 AM
Oh yeah,,,, and a SOLID STATE repeater ??? ??? ???
Sorry dude, but I really don't think that term would apply any more. 
Thought that stuff was done in the 70's when everything went to transistors

I've been running a GE Mastr II high band w/ a 4CX250 for years.  Built like a brick shithouse.  Still running with the original tube.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 26, 2022, 06:30:19 AM
Oh yeah,,,, and a SOLID STATE repeater ??? ??? ???
Sorry dude, but I really don't think that term would apply any more. 
Thought that stuff was done in the 70's when everything went to transistors

I've been running a GE Mastr II high band w/ a 4CX250 for years.  Built like a brick shithouse.  Still running with the original tube.
Oh, please understand that I am NOT picking on tubes.  The high profile system we have in this area is a tube final Micor running 375 out the back and has been that for years as well. 
What I am saying is your not going to find an ALL tube radio, get crystals for it and tune it up for what you can buy a used Kenwood repeater for.  That stuff is either on the air in ham use or it's gone. 
Not sure of your age, but there was a time that anything that had transistors in it at ALL, like a MASTRII was labeled as being SOLID STATE because transistors were the futher and it was 'cutting edge' technology.  If you lived through the late 80's you will remember that anything to do with home audio got labeled 'DIGITAL READY' because of CD's coming into general consumer use.  It wasn't that it had some special sauce applied or anything like that... it was just what manufactures did to sell their stuff. 
Asking for a SOLID STATE piece of gear in this day and age just seems silly. 
I would be asking for a programmable repeater that doesn't need crystals as those have become really expensive to get make for equipment needing them. 
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: W2NAP on March 07, 2022, 06:05:47 PM

There should be a rule:  Three repeaters must be taken off the air before a new one can be installed. :)

No, a repeater should have a minimum amount of logged use by individuals OTHER than the license holder with their callsign attached to the repeater in order to maintain coordination of the pair at minimum and in truth for the repeater to be on the air. 

And there needs to be pairs set aside that are coordinated for 6 months or a year to verify there will be continued use of A repeater pair before full coordination is granted to a semi-permanent pair that then would need to log the above minimum requirement to remain coordinated and active. 

There are TOO many repeaters on the air currently as it is.  Many have poor overall coverage and are poorly maintained but the trustees have decided it's THEIR frequency pair and they ain't coming off it. Problem is that coordination has to be maintained equally for all pairs in use.  Meaning the guy with the VHF repeater that is 800 foot in the air running 300 watts and has 12 receive sites gets the same treatment that the guy with a 20 foot pole in his side yard and a couple old radios duct taped together and an R-Pi repeater controller.  One of these things is NOT like the other.

And yet Mr. 800ft repeater could have 0 users cause he is a stickler and won't let anyone have any actual fun outside of the boring "hi hi om I am driving in my motorcar eating a chicken sandwich ok I am destinated 73" type conversation, while the guy with the 20ft repeater could have activity for 12+ hours a day cause he lets people have fun on his repeater talking about everything from space aliens to building a computer to im sick and tired of going by the fuel station and seeing the price went up another 40 cents.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K5LXP on March 10, 2022, 11:13:46 AM
It's ham radio, and you just have to get used to the idea that no one person, and no one use is more important than the other. 

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: KB8VUL on June 05, 2022, 04:44:35 PM
It's ham radio, and you just have to get used to the idea that no one person, and no one use is more important than the other. 

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

Yes, you're exactly right.  So if I want to put up a repeater, and another ham has a pair that he's been sitting on for years with no traffic on his repeater, he needs to give that up. That's fair and equal.  Giving HIM preferential treatment because he has the pair and is doing little with it is where the favoritism comes into play.
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: K5LXP on June 10, 2022, 09:36:40 AM
Just saw VUL's post.  The situation suggested is possible but rare at best.  I've been putting up repeaters, both coordinated and uncoordinated in the US and one in Canada since the 1980's.  This is not hard to manage.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: 2m affordable solid state repeater ideas?
Post by: PE1HZG on June 10, 2022, 12:24:51 PM
I'm a little worried about the amount of "noise" this thread is attracting.
Let me try to contribute by giving some technical info.

There are a couple of  things you need to consider. First, on 2m, the repeater shift is 600 kHz. That distance is not a lot, and you will need serious, serious filtering to keep transmitter signals out of the receiver. These filters (think of 6, 1m-high coaxial filters) are the majority of your cost, especially if you plan TX and RX to share the same antenna. If your repeater has 10W output (== +40dBm), and given a typical receiver sensitivity of -120dBm, then your filter needs to provide 160dB separation. This is quite a challenge, not just the filters but the shielding of the cabling, ...

Consider that any oscillator doesn't just generate the desired signal, but also a skirt of sideband noise. Part of that noise is in the input frequency of your receiver, and one of the main challenges is to avoid this TX noise from entering your receiver.

In the receiver, you use an oscillator to mix the input signal to, say, 10.7 MHz. Again, the spectral quality of the receiver LO helps to avoid the TX signal, mixed with the sideband noise of the receiver LO, to mix to 10.7 MHz.

A key consideration is that these oscillators must, must have the best, best quality you can afford. Forget about a hamradio-grade radio with a synthesizer; a crystal oscillator has a much higher Q, and hence produces much less sideband noise. So, consider transmitter and receiver with crystal oscillators.
(I know that high-end commercial repeaters exist with synthesizers; the question was "affordable").

The good news is that crystal radios, especially older professional equipment, can be relatively cheap. There is a reason this is mentioned in some of the responses. "sideband noise you don't generate, you don't need to filter". The key is that a weak RX signal should not change if the TX is switched on manually.

Another consideration is thermal cycling. As you know, metals change shape on temperatures. My strong recommendation is to over-over-overdimension the transmitter, so that even after hours of key-down time, the transmitter doesn't get more than hand-warm. Transmitters that get hot do thermal cycling and this will kill your components.

There are sites like www.repeater-builder.com which will provide you hours of reading and insight. This is free, consider you give the website a good study.

Please please resist the temptation to "do features". Making a repeater work well, keeping sensitivity when the TX switches on, and have good, good audio is quite a challenge. Once you got this, you can add pinballmachine features but trust me, you won't be asking questions like this at the skill level once you have your repeater working. Good luck!