eHam
eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: KF4WDD on January 12, 2022, 01:11:21 PM
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You might be pleasantly surprised! In live in Virginia and someone just shared this with me. Apparently, VA amended the law in 1998 to 'reasonably accommodate amateur radio antennas.' This will be helpful as I explain to my HOA that their rules prohibiting all antennas except TV antennas need to be updated.
An Act to amend the Code of Virginia by adding a section numbered 15.2-2293.1, relating to placement of amateur radio antennas. [S 480]
Approved April 16, 1998
Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:
1. That the Code of Virginia is amended by adding a section numbered 15.2-2293.1 as follows:
§ 15.2-2293.1. Placement of amateur radio antennas.
Any ordinance involving the placement, screening or height of antennas shall reasonably accommodate amateur radio antennas and shall impose the minimum regulation necessary to accomplish the locality's legitimate purpose. In localities having a population density of 120 persons or less per square mile according to the 1990 United States census, no local ordinance shall (i) restrict amateur radio antenna height to less than 200 feet above ground level as permitted by the Federal Communications Commission or (ii) restrict the number of support structures. In localities having a population density of more than 120 persons per square mile according to the 1990 United States census, no local ordinance shall (i) restrict amateur radio antenna height to less than 75 feet above ground level or (ii) restrict the number of support structures. Reasonable and customary engineering practices shall be followed in the erection of amateur radio antennas. This section shall not preclude any locality, by ordinance, from regulating amateur radio antennas with regard to reasonable requirements relating to the use of screening, setback, placement, and health and safety requirements.
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I doubt HOA rules are considered ordinances. My guess is this state law does nothing to negate rules HOA-livers agreed to abide by.
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I'm not a lawyer, HOA's are civil contracts between the home owner and the HOA......not the government. I dealt with an HOA in the 1980's and never again!!! The HOA was into everybody's business, not just Ham Radio like we couldn't park our cars on our driveway over night, I could not ride my motorcycle to my house, it had to be parked in the storage yard and if you had a legal beef with them and lost, the home owner was on the hook for all legal fees.
Just my opinion.
GL/73
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I doubt HOA rules are considered ordinances. My guess is this state law does nothing to negate rules HOA-livers agreed to abide by.
I agree. That VA amendment is probably just about PRB-1, governing state and local municipality ham radio antenna accommodations. Nothing to do with CC&R private contracts.
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I'm not a lawyer, HOA's are civil contracts between the home owner and the HOA......not the government. I dealt with an HOA in the 1980's and never again!!! The HOA was into everybody's business, not just Ham Radio like we couldn't park our cars on our driveway over night, I could not ride my motorcycle to my house, it had to be parked in the storage yard and if you had a legal beef with them and lost, the home owner was on the hook for all legal fees.
Just my opinion.
GL/73
Correct. The VA law does not override HOA covenants. Also, most attorneys do not consider Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions (CC&R) a 'contract' as the terms were not negotiated, they are imposed. For a document to be considered a contract, all parties must negotiate on a level plain and agree to all terms.
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Correct. The VA law does not override HOA covenants. Also, most attorneys do not consider Covenants, Conditions & Restrictions (CC&R) a 'contract' as the terms were not negotiated, they are imposed. For a document to be considered a contract, all parties must negotiate on a level plain and agree to all terms.
While the CC&Rs in itself are not contractual, anyone purchasing a home in an HOA is typically required as a prerequisite to purchase to sign an agreement to abide by the rules which is the contractual commitment. Some people conflate the two.
And the previous posters are correct in stating the VA statutory cite doesn’t apply to communities with CC&Rs. In this respect, hams are arguably better off living in an HOA where they have a better chance of obtaining a variance when compared with finding a flexible governmental entity.
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Yep, the minute you sign the contract for the rules, you give up any legal remedy unless the HOA breaks the contract. And you accept any means that the HOA uses to enforce the rules.
Best you can do is to negotiate a way to be legal in the rules you signed up to follow.
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State Statutes, ARRL http://www.arrl.org/state-prb-1-laws
Click on the link at the page for details on 32 states with enhanced laws.
"Several states have strengthened the minimal protection provided by PRB-1, giving amateurs more protection in erecting antennas on thier properties."
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I also live in Virginia and remember this. The Botetourt County Board of Supervisors enacted a law saying no antenna could be more than 20 feet off the ground, or something like that. It pretty much shut down hams, CB, GMRS and even a TV antenna on a chimney. I suspect this happened because part of Botetourt was becoming very suburban as the Roanoke area was expanding and people probably didn't want those "ugly" towers cluttering their neighborhoods.
Some hams from the Roanoke area contacted their delegates and state senators who managed to enact a law based on PRB-1 requiring municipalities to provide reasonable accommodations for antennas. Basically, the Botetourt County law became invalid overnight.
Like others have said, this has nothing to do with HOAs.
73,
Rich, KA4GFY
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My wife who is a lawyer (And is, or was, not sure of her current status, a member of the Va. Bar, as well as VT & N.H.) states that no H.O.A. rules or C.C.R.'s may claim to override any federal, state, county, or local laws/ordinances.
While we both were stationed in Washington D.C., we lived in a H.O.A. community, in Va., where she successfully fought and changed at least 3 H.O.A.'s rules that violated state/local ordinances.
Contracts or agreements can not be written which violate any laws/ordinances.
Gary W1MOW
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My wife who is a lawyer (And is, or was, not sure of her current status, a member of the Va. Bar, as well as VT & N.H.) states that no H.O.A. rules or C.C.R.'s may claim to override any federal, state, county, or local laws/ordinances.
While we both were stationed in Washington D.C., we lived in a H.O.A. community, in Va., where she successfully fought and changed at least 3 H.O.A.'s rules that violated state/local ordinances.
Contracts or agreements can not be written which violate any laws/ordinances.
Gary W1MOW
I’d be interested in knowing the details, I.e., in what court venue she brought this, what were the issues, what rules were overturned, etc…
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My wife who is a lawyer (And is, or was, not sure of her current status, a member of the Va. Bar, as well as VT & N.H.) states that no H.O.A. rules or C.C.R.'s may claim to override any federal, state, county, or local laws/ordinances.
While we both were stationed in Washington D.C., we lived in a H.O.A. community, in Va., where she successfully fought and changed at least 3 H.O.A.'s rules that violated state/local ordinances.
Contracts or agreements can not be written which violate any laws/ordinances.
Gary W1MOW
So, let me get this straight. Are you in effect saying that community CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions cannot override/violate Federal law PRB-1?
If so, why hasn’t the ARRL, with its various legislative efforts in the past, jumped on this? Or no individual ham represented by an attorney used this argument to gain antenna approval?
I’m no lawyer, like your wife, but something here doesn’t compute. Why would such a CC&R be written, knowing that it can’t be legally enforced?
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So, let me get this straight. Are you in effect saying that community CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions cannot override/violate Federal law PRB-1?
PRB-1 is not a federal law - it was never codified. It is a notice from the FCC asserting federal premption against unreasonably restrictive laws, permitting or practices with regard to amateur radio antennas. A big stick, if you will.
So while it is not a law, if it is violated/infringed, you have recourse for redress.
- Glenn W9IQ
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PRB-1 is not a federal law - it was never codified. It is a notice from the FCC asserting federal premption against unreasonably restrictive laws, permitting or practices with regard to amateur radio antennas. A big stick, if you will.
So while it is not a law, if it is violated/infringed, you have recourse for redress.
- Glenn W9IQ
PRB 1 does not apply to or supercede HOA CC&Rs.
Absent any details from W1MOW, i suspect this is largely a simple misstatement of the circumstances.
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PRB-1 is not a federal law - it was never codified. It is a notice from the FCC asserting federal premption against unreasonably restrictive laws, permitting or practices with regard to amateur radio antennas. A big stick, if you will.
So while it is not a law, if it is violated/infringed, you have recourse for redress.
- Glenn W9IQ
PRB 1 does not apply to or supercede HOA CC&Rs.
Very true. The FCC clearly carved out CC&R/HOA with their language:
We reiterate that our ruling herein does not reach restrictive covenants in private contractual agreements. Such agreements are voluntarily entered into by the buyer or tenant when the agreement is executed and do not usually concern this Commission.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Apparently, W1MOW's wife's achievements pertained to other CC&R's in their VA community that violate actual "laws/ordinances", not antenna restrictions. It's stated clearly in PRB-1 (correctly per W9IQ not a "law", but a FCC "Memorandum Opinion and Order") that it doesn't apply to CC&R's.
In this ham radio forum, what other "law/ordinance" violation would he be referring to that applies to antenna restriction CC&R's? If none, why comment?
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Apparently, W1MOW's wife's achievements pertained to other CC&R's in their VA community that violate actual "laws/ordinances", not antenna restrictions. It's stated clearly in PRB-1 (correctly per W9IQ not a "law", but a FCC "Memorandum Opinion and Order") that it doesn't apply to CC&R's.
In this ham radio forum, what other "law/ordinance" violation would he be referring to that applies to antenna restriction CC&R's? If none, why comment?
Some states have clothes line statutes, flag pole statutes, etc… which supersede local covenants ex post facto, however, the nexus to antennas is non-existent.
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My wife who is a lawyer (And is, or was, not sure of her current status, a member of the Va. Bar, as well as VT & N.H.) states that no H.O.A. rules or C.C.R.'s may claim to override any federal, state, county, or local laws/ordinances.
Gary W1MOW
Then explain the many of the horror stories where homeowners in HOAs are fined for not watering their lawns, even though there are drought restrictions in the state/county.
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In this respect, hams are arguably better off living in an HOA where they have a better chance of obtaining a variance when compared with finding a flexible governmental entity.
That is the biggest pile of crappola that I have read today and maybe all week.
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In this respect, hams are arguably better off living in an HOA where they have a better chance of obtaining a variance when compared with finding a flexible governmental entity.
That is the biggest pile of crappola that I have read today and maybe all week.
Apparently you don’t watch the news.
I could give you examples of over 200 variances granted in just one month by my HOA but I can’t make you understand how implausible that would be with any governmental bureaucracy.
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PRB-1 is not a federal law - it was never codified. It is a notice from the FCC asserting federal premption against unreasonably restrictive laws, permitting or practices with regard to amateur radio antennas. A big stick, if you will.
So while it is not a law, if it is violated/infringed, you have recourse for redress.
- Glenn W9IQ
PRB 1 does not apply to or supercede HOA CC&Rs.
Absent any details from W1MOW, i suspect this is largely a simple misstatement of the circumstances.
All I stated was very simple, H.O.A.'s/C.C.R.'s, or for that matter any contract, can not be enforced if it violates any federal, state, or local law.
The rules she fought were about parking restrictions on state/local owned roads, and a "peeping Tom" rule that allowed H.O.A. rulers to use "selfie sticks" to check out peoples property behind and over fences. There is one other, at this time I don't remember. These never went to trial, their lawyer could not settle fast enough.
Sorry...We were away and I was not able to respond in what (K1VSK) you consider a timely fashion. BTW glad to see you commenting on other things other than your relentless defense of H.O.A.'s.
Gary W1MOW
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BTW (K1VSK) glad to see you commenting on other things other than your relentless defense of H.O.A.'s.
Gary W1MOW
Hey, Gary, what about *my* relentless defense of HOA's ;D ;D ;D?
As I've said before, aside from antenna restrictions (which I realized before purchase), I've never had a problem with any of the three HOA communities I lived in. "Peeping Toms" via selfie sticks...wow! I guess I've been fortunate not to have lived in any governed by crazies ;).
Bob K7JQ
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All I stated was very simple, H.O.A.'s/C.C.R.'s, or for that matter any contract, can not be enforced if it violates any federal, state, or local law.
The rules she fought were about parking restrictions on state/local owned roads, and a "peeping Tom" rule that allowed H.O.A. rulers to use "selfie sticks" to check out peoples property behind and over fences. There is one other, at this time I don't remember. These never went to trial, their lawyer could not settle fast enough.
Sorry...We were away and I was not able to respond in what (K1VSK) you consider a timely fashion. BTW glad to see you commenting on other things other than your relentless defense of H.O.A.'s.
Gary W1MOW
Your characterization of my “relentless defense” is more often necessitated by the lack of understanding of the realities, this being a great example:
As it relates to the issue of antenna limitations, no court has the standing to usurp CC&Rs which don’t violate “the law”. And as there is no law which grants any right for antennas in HOAs, this is a moot point. Similarly, anyone who enters into a contract to abide by “legal” HOA rules and by extension CC&Rs, cannot subsequently seek relief.
As for parking rules on state/county/ municipal roadways, the HOA has no standing to impose restrictions there on. Consequently, there is nothing to “fight” once the HOA understands they cannot regulate public roads. They can, however, regulate HOA managed roads in which case you would lose that “fight”.
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In this respect, hams are arguably better off living in an HOA where they have a better chance of obtaining a variance when compared with finding a flexible governmental entity.
That is the biggest pile of crappola that I have read today and maybe all week.
Apparently you don’t watch the news.
I could give you examples of over 200 variances granted in just one month by my HOA but I can’t make you understand how implausible that would be with any governmental bureaucracy.
I don't watch the liberal media crap news.
I didn't know that the news specifically runs news stories on your HOA when they grant variances for towers. Let us all know which news station does that.
How many towers are in your HOA and how tall are they?
That's with your HOA only. Not the other 350,000+ HOAs in the entire USA.
Meanwhile, my local township easily approved my tower permit and variance.
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I don't watch the liberal media crap news.
I didn't know that the news specifically runs news stories on your HOA when they grant variances for towers. Let us all know which news station does that.
How many towers are in your HOA and how tall are they?
That's with your HOA only. Not the other 350,000+ HOAs in the entire USA.
Meanwhile, my local township easily approved my tower permit and variance.
If you want to discuss this intelligently, I’m all in but when you use absurd arguments, you already lost the debate.
I was clearly referring to the numerous variances just in one month granted by my HOA for a myriad things including antennas as an example of the flexibility (which you deny exists) when compared with any governmental entity.
When your argument consists solely of towers and what stories are reported by news media, you set a new and high bar for both “crappola” and nonsense.
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I was clearly referring to the numerous variances just in one month granted by my HOA for a myriad things including antennas as an example of the flexibility (which you deny exists) when compared with any governmental entity.
Your relentless defense of H.O.A.'s would have more credence if you would admit your H.O.A. is unusual. Having lived in 4 H.O.A.'s while on active duty, and 1 condo association after retirement. I can tell you we only had 1 that vaguely resembles how lucky you are with your H.O.A. All the others had their own little dictators who felt they had the right to tell people how to live on their own property.
Glad that you found a good one!
BTW I meant it when I posted I was happy to see you posting about other things than H.O.A.'s
Gary W1MOW
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I was clearly referring to the numerous variances just in one month granted by my HOA for a myriad things including antennas as an example of the flexibility (which you deny exists) when compared with any governmental entity.
Your relentless defense of H.O.A.'s would have more credence if you would admit your H.O.A. is unusual. Having lived in 4 H.O.A.'s while on active duty, and 1 condo association after retirement. I can tell you we only had 1 that vaguely resembles how lucky you are with your H.O.A. All the others had their own little dictators who felt they had the right to tell people how to live on their own property.
Glad that you found a good one!
BTW I meant it when I posted I was happy to see you posting about other things than H.O.A.'s
Gary W1MOW
I don’t think either of us (or anyone else) knows how unusual my HOA is. What I do know is that condos are a separate breed because of the lack of private areas making them somewhat apart.
Also, neither of us can explain why we don’t hear lots of HOA resident hams complaining. There is clearly some but it appears many are also content with their situation(s) which in part can be a result of the flexibility of their HOA. We just don’t know so again, there is no basis on which to imply mine is unique.
As for the dictatorial nature of some, it’s somewhat baffling why residents allow that given these positions are elected and therefore easily removed/replaced.
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I don’t think either of us (or anyone else) knows how unusual my HOA is. What I do know is that condos are a separate breed because of the lack of private areas making them somewhat apart.
Also, neither of us can explain why we don’t hear lots of HOA resident hams complaining. There is clearly some but it appears many are also content with their situation(s) which in part can be a result of the flexibility of their HOA. We just don’t know so again, there is no basis on which to imply mine is unique.
As for the dictatorial nature of some, it’s somewhat baffling why residents allow that given these positions are elected and therefore easily removed/replaced.
What baffles me is that most (not all) of the anti-HOA folks on this forum have never lived in one. They automatically assume that just because there are some rules associated with living in a community, their God-given "rights" are taken away. That's fine, don't buy a house in one. But don't post an opinion on something that you have no experience with.
We're rather private people that don't really spend much time with our neighbors, so in the three HOA's we've lived in, I don't how many people have clashed with the HOA's. What I do know is that, like any responsible people, we take pride in the appearance of our property, respect the privacy of our neighbors, and don't consciously upset the apple cart with non-compliance of the CC&R's. Therefore, no problems with the HOA, and we enjoy where we live. I've never tested the "flexibility" of the rules (never asked for an antenna variance), but I still have stealth antennas that no one can see, no RFI problems, and am still able to enjoy our hobby without any repercussions. Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
And yet people who don’t and often have never lived in even one HOA make broad generalizations about them all. We see that here all the time, perhaps yourself included, but that doesn’t seem to be included in your admonition. Singing to the choir is easy…
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
And yet people who don’t and often have never lived in even one HOA make broad generalizations about them all. We see that here all the time, perhaps yourself included, but that doesn’t seem to be included in your admonition. Singing to the choir is easy…
Which proves you just like to argue. HAVE FUN.
And your assumptions of where people live now or in the past should at least have some proof. Otherwise your just baiting people to argue. Which you seem to be good at.
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
I never said/implied that my three HOA “situations” cover all (see “your mileage might vary”). But I am qualified to comment on living in three of them in the last thirty years, and relating my antenna and other experiences. After all, this is an “Antenna Restrictions” forum topic.
What is a “worthless use of forum space” are those who post comments denigrating HOA’s having never lived in one.
So my question to you, Stan, do you now or ever have lived in an HOA/CC&R community? If so, I’d like to hear your bad experience(s).
Bob K7JQ
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
And yet people who don’t and often have never lived in even one HOA make broad generalizations about them all. We see that here all the time, perhaps yourself included, but that doesn’t seem to be included in your admonition. Singing to the choir is easy…
Which proves you just like to argue. HAVE FUN.
And your assumptions of where people live now or in the past should at least have some proof. Otherwise your just baiting people to argue. Which you seem to be good at.
It’s pretty easy to tell where people live currently and many also describe their previous residences. Im not arguing; I’m expressing my perspective based on what I can see and/or read. As for the arguing, I refer you to your own comments quoted above.
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
I never said/implied that my three HOA “situations” cover all (see “your mileage might vary”). But I am qualified to comment on living in three of them in the last thirty years, and relating my antenna and other experiences. After all, this is an “Antenna Restrictions” forum topic.
What is a “worthless use of forum space” are those who post comments denigrating HOA’s having never lived in one.
So my question to you, Stan, do you now or ever have lived in an HOA/CC&R community? If so, I’d like to hear your bad experience(s).
Bob K7JQ
With no response so far to my question, I can assume he does not now nor ever has lived in an HOA community. Yet he comments on it with no experience.
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With no response so far to my question, I can assume he does not now nor ever has lived in an HOA community. Yet he comments on it with no experience.
To paraphrase, if it walks like a troll, sounds like a troll,…..
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If you want to discuss this intelligently, I’m all in but when you use absurd arguments, you already lost the debate.
I was clearly referring to the numerous variances just in one month granted by my HOA for a myriad things including antennas as an example of the flexibility (which you deny exists) when compared with any governmental entity.
When your argument consists solely of towers and what stories are reported by news media, you set a new and high bar for both “crappola” and nonsense.
Simply following your "lead." If you can't make an intelligent argument, that is not my problem.
Where did I say that your HOA isn't flexible? Where did I "deny that exists?" My specific sentence said 'your HOA,' not the 350,000+ across the country that are likely not as flexible.
You said "news," not me.
My local municipality has yet to deny any variance, for a myriad of items - that you say does not exist: ....when compared with any governmental entity. Your words, not mine.
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Where did I say that your HOA isn't flexible? Where did I "deny that exists?" My specific sentence said 'your HOA,' not the 350,000+ across the country that are likely not as flexible.
You forgot I never suggested you wrote any of that. If you want to argue, come prepared with something more than hyperbole.
Do you live in an HOA?
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With no response so far to my question, I can assume he does not now nor ever has lived in an HOA community. Yet he comments on it with no experience.
To paraphrase, if it walks like a troll, sounds like a troll,…..
I chose not to continue. Yet you needed to push the issue. My past may or may not influence my opinion and does not require me to prove where my opinion originates.
In the case of a technical topic, then some background/experience becomes relevant. Cause I am not afraid to be wrong if people tell me I am wrong and show me my error. I welcome new information and try to learn from it.
Arguing about HOAs fall into the first category. If you don't like what I say, so be it. But commenting on my past without any knowledge would put you in the troll category. Which also does not require me to answer. When everyone else here tells about their past, then I will to. Until then, my commentary is simply my opinion similar to what most post here on non-technical issues.
It is as simple as saying my radio is better than yours. An opinion that does not need an argument as it is simply my opinion. Nor requires any proof.
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I chose not to continue. Yet you needed to push the issue. My past may or may not influence my opinion…
Actually, you choose to not answer. The rest is a transparent obfuscation. We know the answer.
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Thanks for answering my question, Stan...in a roundabout way. What's so hard about just saying "No"? My assumption has now gone to confirmation that you've never lived in an HOA community. Yet you comment about it, like others on this forum topic who've never had the experience (good or bad). When you live in an HOA and have some evidence to back up your opinion, come back here and let us know.
Opinions should be somewhat based on knowledge/experience. Otherwise they're irrelevant. It's like a ham saying..."I've never used a FTDX-10, but I don't like it" ;).
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Human nature tells you that the answer is no. However the real answer has not been revealed. So I just consider it your opinion, useless as it is. And all the bullying you try makes me less likely to answer.
Carry on.
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However the real answer has not been revealed.
Yea, it has by act of omission. I can’t think of any reason why you are playing games - honesty shouldn’t embarrass you. Unless,….
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However the real answer has not been revealed.
Yea, it has by act of omission. I can’t think of any reason why you are playing games - honesty shouldn’t embarrass you. Unless,….
Cause it's fun watching you make a fool of yourself. Any embarrassment should be on your end. And your continued responses and bullying is hilarious. I will have to check back often so I can further laugh at you!
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However the real answer has not been revealed.
Yea, it has by act of omission. I can’t think of any reason why you are playing games - honesty shouldn’t embarrass you. Unless,….
Cause it's fun watching you make a fool of yourself. Any embarrassment should be on your end. And your continued responses and bullying is hilarious. I will have to check back often so I can further laugh at you!
When did asking a simple question become “bullying”?
We see a lot of feigned moral superiority in general society these days but not here until now. Good demo!
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Human nature tells you that the answer is no. However the real answer has not been revealed. So I just consider it your opinion, useless as it is. And all the bullying you try makes me less likely to answer.
Carry on.
Bullying?? I just asked you a simple question to see if your HOA remarks had any relevance. Had you said “yes”, then fair ‘nuff…your opinion would have been valid to me. A “no”, and I would have left it at that. You’re the one that continued this discussion by your refusal to respond with a one word answer. To talk the talk, ‘ya gotta walk the walk ;). No more comments from me on this thread.
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My parents have lived in an HOA controlled neighborhood in Tampa, Florida since 1989. They have at one time or another been on the board of the HOA. They specifically asked if I could move to their community and install any kind of ham antenna. They were told under no circumstances could I do so. My brother and sister in law live in a HOA controlled neighborhood in Brandon, Florida. They received the same response as my parents. My friend just moved to a community in south eastern Florida. He's a ham and had to install a stealth antenna (Sorta like going behind mommy and daddy's back) If he wants to operate from his home. By the way, I asked my aunt and uncle who live in a HOA community in New Jersey the same question. Guess what the answer was. I don't have to stick my head in a noose to figure out what the result would be. Perhaps I'm a bit more perceptive than most...Nah, I'm just not naive.
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My parents have lived in an HOA controlled neighborhood in Tampa, Florida since 1989. They have at one time or another been on the board of the HOA. They specifically asked if I could move to their community and install any kind of ham antenna. They were told under no circumstances could I do so. My brother and sister in law live in a HOA controlled neighborhood in Brandon, Florida. They received the same response as my parents. My friend just moved to a community in south eastern Florida. He's a ham and had to install a stealth antenna (Sorta like going behind mommy and daddy's back) If he wants to operate from his home. By the way, I asked my aunt and uncle who live in a HOA community in New Jersey the same question. Guess what the answer was. I don't have to stick my head in a noose to figure out what the result would be. Perhaps I'm a bit more perceptive than most...Nah, I'm just not naive.
David,
Well, yeah, they’re all in HOA’s with antenna restrictions ;). What do they expect? If that’s what the CC&R’s state, that’s the way it is if the Architectural Committee isn’t willing to grant a variance. It’s what a ham has to consider *before* purchase. Your friend installed a stealth antenna, like many hams do in a HOA. His choice, like mine. No big deal. I love and enjoy where I live, with ham radio still a workable hobby.
But let me ask: Besides the antenna issue, are your parents, brother and sister in law, your friend (all in Florida), and your aunt and uncle in New Jersey totally fed up with living in a HOA? Are they all unhappy and discontented with all the CC&R provisions, and constantly bickering with the HOA board that their “rights” have been violated? Like many on this forum depict, even though they’ve never lived in one ::).
73 and hope you’re doing well,
Bob K7JQ
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My parents have lived in an HOA controlled neighborhood in Tampa, Florida since 1989. They have at one time or another been on the board of the HOA. They specifically asked if I could move to their community and install any kind of ham antenna. They were told under no circumstances could I do so. My brother and sister in law live in a HOA controlled neighborhood in Brandon, Florida. They received the same response as my parents. My friend just moved to a community in south eastern Florida. He's a ham and had to install a stealth antenna (Sorta like going behind mommy and daddy's back) If he wants to operate from his home. By the way, I asked my aunt and uncle who live in a HOA community in New Jersey the same question. Guess what the answer was. I don't have to stick my head in a noose to figure out what the result would be. Perhaps I'm a bit more perceptive than most...Nah, I'm just not naive.
It’s quite common for an HOA to say ‘no’ when it involves apartments/condos with nothing but common areas outside which is a fundamentally different situation than single homes. Often , people don’t differentiate as in the above.
Regardless, no one ever denied some HOAs are very restrictive. However, there are plenty of other choices when buying as well as staying - why some can only complain as though they have no choice is silly.
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When did asking a simple question become “bullying”?
We see a lot of feigned moral superiority in general society these days but not here until now. Good demo!
LOL
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When did asking a simple question become “bullying”?
We see a lot of feigned moral superiority in general society these days but not here until now. Good demo!
LOL
Another non-HOA resident heard from with nothing constructive to add as usual.
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When did asking a simple question become “bullying”?
We see a lot of feigned moral superiority in general society these days but not here until now. Good demo!
LOL
Another non-HOA resident heard from with nothing constructive to add as usual.
LOL
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Depending on any crazy people on an HOA board, your mileage may vary ;).
And that is the crux of the problem. Where 1 person has no problems, others do. So really neither side can be used as an overall example that would sum up all HOAs. So no direct comparison can be made other than your own situation. And to debate 2 situations as if they cover all is a worthless use of forum space.
I thought that this statement sums it up well. I wish I had said it!
If you find fault in this statement, then maybe you're just a little too argumentative. I also fail to see what having lived in an H.O.A./C.C.R. has any bearing, it is a simple statement.
BTW...If H.O.A.'s are so great why are there over 25K videos on YouTube, many by broadcast stations, about abuses made by H.O.A. boards.
Gary W1MOW
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If you find fault in this statement, then maybe you're just a little too argumentative. I also fail to see what having lived in an H.O.A./C.C.R. has any bearing, it is a simple statement.
BTW...If H.O.A.'s are so great why are there over 25K videos on YouTube, many by broadcast stations, about abuses made by H.O.A. boards.
Gary W1MOW
Assuming you acknowledge that most people don’t write, post or otherwise note things with which they like, agree or approve of, it’s easy to let such complaints lead to judgment bias indicating everyone hates their HOA. In fact,if that were true, they wouldn’t live there, stay there or buy there. And once you acknowledge homes in HOAs at least in this part of paradise, are in the greatest demand, sell like ‘hot cakes’ and have a higher value than non-HOA properties, the complaints fade into background noise.
Except of course by the people who don’t live in an HOA and just like to complain (or argue as you describe it) while ironically whining about freedom and minding their own business. The only plausible explanation for what motivates non-residents to complain about something extraneous to them is some self-esteem issue driving their need to feel better by criticizing others.
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BTW...If H.O.A.'s are so great why are there over 25K videos on YouTube, many by broadcast stations, about abuses made by H.O.A. boards.
Gary W1MOW
Who said they're "great"? Many people like them, and many people don't. For all kinds of reasons. There are millions of YouTube videos on *everything*, good and bad. But I doubt if anyone would make a video, or a broadcast of "My HOA is wonderful" ;). Usually it's when they have a gripe.
I've always commented here on my HOA experiences, which have been satisfactory. I believe you lived in one, so you have your own opinion/experience. What sticks in my craw are those that criticize them without ever having lived in one.
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Except of course by the people who don’t live in an HOA and just like to complain (or argue as you describe it) while ironically whining about freedom and minding their own business. The only plausible explanation for what motivates non-residents to complain about something extraneous to them is some self-esteem issue driving their need to feel better by criticizing others.
LOL
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"But let me ask: Besides the antenna issue, are your parents, brother and sister in law, your friend (all in Florida), and your aunt and uncle in New Jersey totally fed up with living in a HOA? Are they all unhappy and discontented with all the CC&R provisions, and constantly bickering with the HOA board that their “rights” have been violated? Like many on this forum depict, even though they’ve never lived in one ::). "
Good question Bob. The answer is that all are happy, but it's not a simple as that. They are all happy because they are not being denied the right to make use of their federally issued license to pursue what is actually a legal activity on their own property. I do agree that it would be inappropriate for an amateur radio operator to expect to make use of common land (land which they do not hold title to) to install a radio antenna. I also believe that it wouldn't be right for a neighbor to install a tower (50 feet or higher) on a postage sized plot of land. It's not as though I'm suggesting that because I hold title to and pay taxes on a specific piece of land that I can do anything I want such as open a business. That's why we have zoning laws. I reside on 1/3 of an acre and have installed two wire antennas. One for 20 meters at approx 75 feet above ground and the other a 80/40 meter V up about 60 feet at its apex. With these antennas I have confirmed 299 entities and have DXCC on 80-10 meters, all without the use of an amplifier. My antennas are not visible from the front of my home. I had a TH5 on the roof of my old home. I could reinstall it at my present home or I could put up a hex beam. I chose not to because my current arrangement has proven satisfactory for my needs. The reason for my participation in this forum (Not currently living in a HOA/covenant restricted home) is because when I started looking for homes to move to after my retirement (which happened a year and a half ago), I couldn't find a home that met my standard, having been built within the past 10 years or so, without a HOA/covenant restriction. Sure I could buy land and build my dream home but guess what the chances would be of having public utility services (sewers, natural gas, high speed fiber based internet, and public water service (No wells or septic tanks). I have all of those at my current location and I don't live in the woods (I'm 35 minutes from midtown Manhattan). If I could find a new neighborhood which offered me similar quality of life items and allowed me to pursue my hobby without going behind mommy and daddy's back, I might consider a move. As of today I haven't found any newer neighborhoods (My present home was built in 1985. I've replaced both the heating and central air systems as well as the roof, driveway etc. I don't want to move into an older home and face those expenses again). As I've stated, all the newer neighborhoods I've found are part of a HOA operating under the rule of these restrictive covenants.
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"But let me ask: Besides the antenna issue, are your parents, brother and sister in law, your friend (all in Florida), and your aunt and uncle in New Jersey totally fed up with living in a HOA? Are they all unhappy and discontented with all the CC&R provisions, and constantly bickering with the HOA board that their “rights” have been violated? Like many on this forum depict, even though they’ve never lived in one ::). "
Good question Bob. The answer is that all are happy, but it's not a simple as that. They are all happy because they are not being denied the right to make use of their federally issued license to pursue what is actually a legal activity on their own property.
David,
I’m a little confused about your third sentence. Your original post stated that those people *are* being denied the “right” to make use of their federally issued license…erecting an antenna. Maybe you meant something else, or I’m misinterpreting what you stated.
The fact is that CC&R’s are legally enforceable laws of a community. A sign of the times…that’s just the way it is. You own a car, but you must wear a seatbelt. A motorcycle in some states, you must wear a helmet. A house with CC&R antenna restrictions, you can’t erect an antenna. All subject to reprimand if you don’t obey.
As I’ve said many times before, I’m not choked up with my community’s antenna restrictions, but I do what I feel I must to still happily enjoy my hobby…stealth antennas. Otherwise, I’m very content where I live. To me, ham radio is my hobby, subject to other facets and priorities in my life. I had my tri-bander and tower back in Philly before HOA/CC&R’s came into being. Now in Arizona, I choose what’s available according to my wants and needs. We all have choices, and sometimes compromises must be made.
BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.
Bob K7JQ
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.
BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.
Bob K7JQ
Bob
I received an email from one of my Section managers that the ARRL discussed allocating $300,000 for lobbying expenses to advocate for this once again. The proposal apparently hasn’t been implemented yet but the fact they are going about it again in the same way they previously failed is interesting. Not a peep out of the ARRL officially admitting it but I doubt my Section guy would make this up.
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.
BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.
Bob K7JQ
Bob
I received an email from one of my Section managers that the ARRL discussed allocating $300,000 for lobbying expenses to advocate for this once again. The proposal apparently hasn’t been implemented yet but the fact they are going about it again in the same way they previously failed is interesting. Not a peep out of the ARRL officially admitting it but I doubt my Section guy would make this up.
Interesting indeed. Based on past failures, IMO a gross waste of money. I have no idea what new approach they can take, but their previous reliance on the term “reasonable accommodation” is too vague. It’s up to unlimited interpretation, continued HOA denials of what a ham deems reasonable, and we’re back to square one. Even if they specify things like ‘wires, verticals, height limitations’, hams still won’t be happy ::).
I’ve seen CC&R’s that state “Radio antennas are prohibited, unless approved by the Architectural Committee”. An apparent crack in the armor, but generally you can’t apply for a variance until after you purchase the property.
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Interesting indeed. Based on past failures, IMO a gross waste of money. I have no idea what new approach they can take, but their previous reliance on the term “reasonable accommodation” is too vague. It’s up to unlimited interpretation, continued HOA denials of what a ham deems reasonable, and we’re back to square one. Even if they specify things like ‘wires, verticals, height limitations’, hams still won’t be happy ::).
[/quote]
I am not sure why "reasonable accommodation" is such a bad thing, and yes you're never going to make everyone happy!
Would not it be better for H.O.A.'s to say you may have a "flag pole" style antenna, 2-3 wire antennas, and one 2m/70cm antenna as long as they are not visible from the roadway. This would also let a lot of Hams out of the "closet or attic" as the case maybe. It may also reduce the headaches for the H.O.A.
Gary W1MOW
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Would not it be better for H.O.A.'s to say you may have a "flag pole" style antenna, 2-3 wire antennas, and one 2m/70cm antenna as long as they are not visible from the roadway. This would also let a lot of Hams out of the "closet or attic" as the case maybe. It may also reduce the headaches for the H.O.A.
Gary W1MOW
One size doesn’t fit all. Many homes in most of the the nearby developments abut other yards which are in plain view of many neighbors so the perspective of only street view is just one consideration.
To most people, antennas in any form add nothing to the view and can detract from it and that includes wires.
All comes down to the same inevitable issue - if you choose to live where rules exist, don’t expect anyone or any community to change them just because of your obscure hobby.
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.
BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.
Bob K7JQ
Bob
I received an email from one of my Section managers that the ARRL discussed allocating $300,000 for lobbying expenses to advocate for this once again. The proposal apparently hasn’t been implemented yet but the fact they are going about it again in the same way they previously failed is interesting. Not a peep out of the ARRL officially admitting it but I doubt my Section guy would make this up.
Interesting indeed.
Below is an excerpt from an email I received describing the plan under discussion.
“The Legislative Advocacy Committee has recommended that the ARRL form a
Political Action Committee so that ARRL members may legally contribute
to a fund that would go to contributions to political candidates.
Legally, a charitable 501(c)(3) corporation like the ARRL is restricted
from contributing to political candidates.
The Board would need to approve such a measure. I am undecided as to
whether we should be using ARRL money for political candidates. Your
opinion would be appreciated.
For 2022, $300,000 is proposed in the ARRL Operating Budget for support
of the Legislative Action Committee. This is above and beyond our
Washington Attorney fees.”
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I am not sure why "reasonable accommodation" is such a bad thing, and yes you're never going to make everyone happy!
Would not it be better for H.O.A.'s to say you may have a "flag pole" style antenna, 2-3 wire antennas, and one 2m/70cm antenna as long as they are not visible from the roadway. This would also let a lot of Hams out of the "closet or attic" as the case maybe. It may also reduce the headaches for the H.O.A.
Gary W1MOW
"Reasonable accommodation" is fine...until it's deemed (by the HOA or ham) that it's not reasonable ;). Headaches on both sides. I know it's a stretch, but how about a ham that wants a flagpole antenna, 1/2 wave resonant for 80 meters...66 feet with a flag on top ::). I know, you can go shorter with an antenna tuner.
With a total antenna prohibition, the HOA would have less headaches dealing with the one ham (no recourse) than the multiple protests of his "Karen" neighbors, especially those on each side and in back of his house that don't like the eyesore wires or poles compromising their view. And that's not including RFI when you decide to buy an amp.
Unfortunately, this is what hams will have to deal with when buying a postage-stamp size lot with neighbors all around in a HOA/CC&R community. Think long and hard before purchase.
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"But let me ask: Besides the antenna issue, are your parents, brother and sister in law, your friend (all in Florida), and your aunt and uncle in New Jersey totally fed up with living in a HOA? Are they all unhappy and discontented with all the CC&R provisions, and constantly bickering with the HOA board that their “rights” have been violated? Like many on this forum depict, even though they’ve never lived in one ::). "
Good question Bob. The answer is that all are happy, but it's not a simple as that. They are all happy because they are not being denied the right to make use of their federally issued license to pursue what is actually a legal activity on their own property.
David,
I’m a little confused about your third sentence. Your original post stated that those people *are* being denied the “right” to make use of their federally issued license…erecting an antenna. Maybe you meant something else, or I’m misinterpreting what you stated.
The fact is that CC&R’s are legally enforceable laws of a community. A sign of the times…that’s just the way it is. You own a car, but you must wear a seatbelt. A motorcycle in some states, you must wear a helmet. A house with CC&R antenna restrictions, you can’t erect an antenna. All subject to reprimand if you don’t obey.
As I’ve said many times before, I’m not choked up with my community’s antenna restrictions, but I do what I feel I must to still happily enjoy my hobby…stealth antennas. Otherwise, I’m very content where I live. To me, ham radio is my hobby, subject to other facets and priorities in my life. I had my tri-bander and tower back in Philly before HOA/CC&R’s came into being. Now in Arizona, I choose what’s available according to my wants and needs. We all have choices, and sometimes compromises must be made.
BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.
Bob K7JQ
It's quite simple actually. Perhaps I should have put it this way, once you've signed the documents to purchase a piece of property, the new owner is GIVING UP his or her rights to make use of their federally issued license on land, they not only own but continue to pay taxes on, be it property tax or HOA fees. If they wish to live in a modern home in a newly constructed community, they either agree not to make use of their HF amateur license privileges from home without as I said, going behind mommy and daddy's back, IE: Sneaking an antenna up behind the group of individuals who have control over your property, or going QRT. Of course, if money is no object, you could always go the rent-a-station route or you could take up hanging around "the club house". As to TVI, that is basically a thing of the past if you're running reasonable power. I run 100 watts and have Verizon Fios as my provider. My wife can watch any TV in the house and not know I'm on the air. She can use the phones while I'm on the air and there's no indication that I am on the air. I know some people do have interference problems, but I can only tell you about my experience.
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David WB2KSP,
You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.
You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.
But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).
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David WB2KSP,
You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.
You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.
But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).
We aren’t “giving up” anything we never wanted. The concept that we somehow give up anything is ridiculous. You and I both live in an HOA in new or newer homes and can operate our radios every day if we want. And if anyone needs an obtrusive antenna to have a fulfilling life, they can easily do that somewhere else.
It’s a choice. These people can either:
1. live where they want, or
2. don’t and whine as though it’s someone else’s fault.
Here we have a guy who freely admitted he spent one day unsuccessfully looking for a house and now spends the rest of the year feigning unavailability.
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David WB2KSP,
You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.
You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.
But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).
That is why there are those engaged to "fight" for the right to have the law changed. No one is denying how things are today. Years ago if you were a different skin color or practiced another religion communities calling themselves HOA's wouldn't allow some people to move into their community. I am not comparing the two other than to say that laws can be changed. That is what a few of us would like to see happen here. Back in those days there were some people who bought into those communities for just that reason. Somehow with changes made to the law, they survived. Happily, at least at this stage of my life I don't have to buy into those communities. Because I worked in the 24/7 field of broadcasting for my entire career, I worked at least one weekend day for over 40 years. Now that I am retired with time to get on anytime I feel like it, I am not going to downsize my station, even though it's currently a small station by any measurement.
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David, I hear you. You're right...you can't compare religious and racial discrimination to overturning a ham radio antenna CC&R. To my knowledge, the only one fighting for the right to have the law (HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions) changed is the ARRL. And we haven't officially heard a blip from them in the last few years, after the defeat of their last of many legislative attempts.
Now, K1VSK informs us of an ARRL proposal to (possibly) create a ham radio P.A.C. to provide contributions to legislator's campaigns, influencing them to overturn HOA antenna restrictions. I can see it now..."Dear Senator Sinema - Here's 20 bucks to change a ham radio CC&R - Sincerely Bob K7JQ" ;). She'd probably say "What's ham radio"? And they're also considering allocation of $300,000 for lobbying expenses. IMO, unless they find a different argument, that would be foolish.
If you're not willing to compromise antenna requirements, looks like you'll be living where you presently are for the foreseeable future. Again, it is what it is.
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The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done. If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.
Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.
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The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done. If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.
Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.
Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations.
I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.
Louisiana has a bill before the legislature : HB 9
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14 B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o
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What if there was a CC&R in some HOA that prohibited the storing of firearms on the premises?. Don't think for a minute that many HOA residents wouldn't want that if they thought they could get away with it. Many parents now won't let their children play with other children whose parents have a firearm, no matter how it is stored. Let alone if they know that the parent is a Concealed Carry holder.
Once you start down that road, these examples don't look as "far out there" as you might first think. For those of you that like living in HOA's I am good with that. Very good with that in fact. But I will never live in an HOA, because telling another person what they can do with their own property goes against everything I believe in.
Yes, some of my neighbors may have some things in their yards I don't particularly enjoy looking at, BUT it is NONE of my business. I don't own that property. I don't live their lives, nor do I have their interests. I would defend to the death their right to have their "junk" in their yards, just like I would defend to the death my right to have my tower and antennas.
So there is my thoughts on HOA's and that is all I am going to say about that.*
*Thanks Forrest.
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This country needs more people like you James!
73 John AF5CC
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The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done. If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.
Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.
Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations.
I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.
Louisiana has a bill before the legislature : HB 9
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14 B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o
The first test when considering any legislation is whether and what it provides or prohibits which isn’t otherwise available.
This does neither. People maintain every Constitutional right before and, if this became LA law, after passage. Nothing changes. States don’t grant nor can they deny Constitutional rights.
And antenna limitations isn’t one.
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Private CC&R agreements between homeowner and community regarding ham radio antenna restrictions are legally enforceable by an HOA, or complaining neighbor if there is no HOA. Unless such CC&R violates federal, state or municipal law. To date, no such violation has been shown/proven. No one has a Constitutional right to erect an antenna if the agreed upon CC&R law of the community denies it.
Show me an instance where I’m wrong, and I’ll gladly retract my statement ;).
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The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done. If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.
Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.
Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations.
I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.
Louisiana has a bill before the legislature : HB 9
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14 B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o
The first test when considering any legislation is whether and what it provides or prohibits which isn’t otherwise available.
This does neither. People maintain every Constitutional right before and, if this became LA law, after passage. Nothing changes. States don’t grant nor can they deny Constitutional rights.
And antenna limitations isn’t one.
Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:
(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.
what does Judge Don say? Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
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Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:
(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.
Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
My two cents:
Absent a specific “antenna restriction”, I would imagine that an antenna would be considered part of interference-causing (ham radio) “electric equipment”. But what if you can prove that your radio *doesn’t* cause interference? Can you then keep your antenna? Vague.
On another note, it doesn’t state interference to a *commercial* television or radio station. What about interference to YOUR ham “radio station”? Can that include your neighbor’s solar panels, grow lights, electric fences, etc, causing interference to your receiver?
IMO, a very poorly written, vague CC&R. Let a judge deal with that ;).
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Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:
(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.
what does Judge Don say? Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
An antenna isn’t generally categorized as “electrical equipment” so I guess my first question is - what’s your point?
Also, absent the entire statute, it’s impossible to know if the intent is limited to equipment within a domicile or limited to exterior “equipment” or all “equipment” but again, not specific to antennas.
Any other games you want to play?
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Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:
(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.
what does Judge Don say? Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
An antenna isn’t generally categorized as “electrical equipment” so I guess my first question is - what’s your point?
Also, absent the entire statute, it’s impossible to know if the intent is limited to equipment within a domicile or limited to exterior “equipment” or all “equipment” but again, not specific to antennas.
Any other games you want to play?
It is the whole restriction, and the Louisiana Judge said RFI is an FCC item and ultra vires to the court.
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Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:
(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.
Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
It is the whole restriction, and the Louisiana Judge said RFI is an FCC item and ultra vires to the court.
The restriction is so vague and non-specific that that even the Judge is baffled, and doesn’t want to deal with it. So he’s passing the buck to the FCC.
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It is the whole restriction, and the Louisiana Judge said RFI is an FCC item and ultra vires to the court.
Again, without reading the entire Bill, it’s unwise to take this one sentence out of context. Virtually every legislation contains a definition section omitted here. We don’t see that here. Having said that, it appears whomever wrote that is stating the obvious - it’s no epiphany that the FCC has primacy in cases involving RFI. Didn’t you know that?
If your trying to argue that HOAs don’t have the authority to regulate RFI or base transmitter restrictions on RFI interference, I don’t think that’s a surprise to anyone. I also don’t recall anyone ever implying they do.
So what’s your point?
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HOA rules may NOT contradict Federal, State, or local laws. Many property HOAs have restrictions and covenants that violate Federal Law, State law, State Property codes etc.
A contract can not have conditions that violate one of the above, period.
That's my business. I have busted up many HOA CC&Rs this way. Check the last time your CC&Rs were updated. If not in the last 5 years, I guarantee they are not compliant.
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HOA rules may NOT contradict Federal, State, or local laws. Many property HOAs have restrictions and covenants that violate Federal Law, State law, State Property codes etc.
A contract can not have conditions that violate one of the above, period.
That's my business. I have busted up many HOA CC&Rs this way. Check the last time your CC&Rs were updated. If not in the last 5 years, I guarantee they are not compliant.
There are no Federal, State, or local laws that would override private land use CC&R’s that restrict ham radio antennas. That’s what folks that read this forum are concerned about.
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And “updating CC&Rs” is impracticable if not impossible in most cases. If there were any Federal statutes which contravene a covenant, the former inherently takes precedence and supersedes it obviating any need to “update” or “bust”them (whatever that means).
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People are always, incorrectly, posting on this forum various ways that CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions are somehow mis-worded, illegal, void, outdated, or violate other laws or Constitutional rights that would render them ineffective. The plain fact is that they are fully enforceable under any law, and any attempt to fight them is futile. Read the CC&R’s before purchasing a property.
If you’re under such restrictions, you basically have three choices:
1. Fully comply and give up operating ham radio from home (except remotely).
2. Ask permission from the HOA for a variance to erect an antenna.
3. Find innovative ways to hide an antenna from the eyes of neighbors and the
HOA (at your own risk).
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I’m not sure how any of this is helpful:
HOA rules may NOT contradict Federal, State,…
A contract can not have conditions that violate one of the above, period.
That's my business. I have busted up many HOA CC&Rs this way. Check the last time your CC&Rs were updated. If not in the last 5 years, I guarantee they are not compliant.
What do you mean by “that’s my business”?
Can you cite examples of both what and how you have “busted” covenants?
In what way is “this way”?
Do you realize CC&Rs aren’t “updated”?
In what way does a 5year duration affect compliance?
And most fundamental to the above, how does any of your post relate to antenna limitations?
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PURE AND SIMPLE...NO CONTRACT IS ENFORCEABLE IF IT VIOLATES ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL LAWS!
I don't know how many times it must be said for you guy's to understand. It does not matter if it's a H.O.A. or C.C.R, if it violates any law or oridence, it's not enforceable. If part of any contract is found to be based on an old law, or that law has been updated, since it now violates a law, that part is no longer enforceable.
Your constant and relentless support of H.O.A.'s, makes the former LEO in me wonder...Is the "National Home Owner's Association" paying you?
Let me know when you guy's pass the bar!
It's time for this thread to be locked, it has long ago run it's course!
Gary W1MOW
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PURE AND SIMPLE...NO CONTRACT IS ENFORCEABLE IF IT VIOLATES ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL LAWS!
I don't know how many times it must be said for you guy's to understand. It does not matter if it's a H.O.A. or C.C.R, if it violates any law or oridence, it's not enforceable. If part of any contract is found to be based on an old law, or that law has been updated, since it now violates a law, that part is no longer enforceable.
Your constant and relentless support of H.O.A.'s, makes the former LEO in me wonder...Is the "National Home Owner's Association" paying you?
Let me know when you guy's pass the bar!
It's time for this thread to be locked, it has long ago run it's course!
Gary W1MOW
We know. No one disputes that. We have repeatedly acknowledged that. What makes you think anyone doesn’t know that? Where did anyone dispute that?
All of which is still irrelevant when dealing withHOA CC&R antenna limitations.
I am a member of both the multi-state and Federal Bar. Not an indicator of any double-secret expertise. I know many lawyers who are intellectually challenged - most went into politics and ironically now make the laws and regs we debate here
Did short sentences help?
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PURE AND SIMPLE...NO CONTRACT IS ENFORCEABLE IF IT VIOLATES ANY FEDERAL, STATE, LOCAL LAWS!
I don't know how many times it must be said for you guy's to understand. It does not matter if it's a H.O.A. or C.C.R, if it violates any law or oridence, it's not enforceable. If part of any contract is found to be based on an old law, or that law has been updated, since it now violates a law, that part is no longer enforceable.
Your constant and relentless support of H.O.A.'s, makes the former LEO in me wonder...Is the "National Home Owner's Association" paying you?
Let me know when you guy's pass the bar!
It's time for this thread to be locked, it has long ago run it's course!
Gary W1MOW
Gary,
I'm not questioning your first paragraph. But CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions DO NOT violate any Federal, State, or local laws. And this CC&R is what hams that read this forum are concerned about. Other CC&R's?...who cares in relation to ham radio. You're in effect telling hams that they might have a shot to have the CC&R overridden because it violates other laws. Cite cases to prove me or Don wrong. I'm not an attorney, but I once played one on TV (not) ;D.
I don't "support" HOA's, and don't care where anyone lives. I'm just telling people that think there's loopholes around CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions, or falsely read something into them to justify moving into a community, that there isn't. Everyone has free choice to live wherever they want.
Bob K7JQ
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Probably a word here should be written about intent.
From what i understand, when legislation is prepared it may not be intended to violate federal, state, local laws as applicable. Occasionally once it is enacted it falls to affected parties to demonstrate to the authority having jurisdiction that a law may have to be reconsidered or rewritten or occasionally struck down. (I.e. when the head of Zenith successfully struck down the precursor to the FCC on or about 1927-8-9. Um, don't hold me to this, its been a while since i read 200 meters down.)
My reading of this is that the unintended consequences of the assumptions the general public and legislators make(s) about radio, antennas, or otherwise reflects how far the hobby has to go to educate everyone else about what makes ham radio that we consider worth protecting- with legal protections in the case of antennas.
Paraphrasing from what i recall, two years ago one of the guys at the club had this battle with his town misunderstanding that ham radio was a private radio service. At the time I advised that he get a formal rejection from that town to appeal to a higher authority for the purpose of having the higher authority demonstrate the difference between private or subscription service (cellular, beeper, etc.) and ham radio. Both categories are governed and licensed by the FCC but that authority clearly had to be educated on the difference.
Back to intent, the Louisiana HOA proposed language noted previously may or may not presumably exempt an swl antenna or tv receiving antenna such as a satellite dish unless a rejection could be appealed with documentation satisfactory to the HOA that said receiving apparatus (including antennas) is not designed to interfere with existing services that were considered important to the HOA. (A plausible hypothetical may be that a community service requires line of sight to a national weather service transmitter or something that was perhaps not explicitly mentioned.) I don't know the circumstances of that HOA, but the framers of the HOA language presumably bear the responsibility to communicate this through the language of the restriction explicitly and or their rejection notice.
I agree with 'VSK, however i'd add that the work that resulted in that sample HOA language as presented or cited here makes the HOA that approved it appear intellectually challenged. Therefore in the context of EHam and QRZ, it may be as simple as reading the law to demonstrate the... intellectual gap a judge would have to fill for said HOA.
To further qualify this, I should explain that I am not an attorney nor do i play one on tv. (By trade i am an archimatect (sic).) However i do have a tv and that might count for something. But don't take my word for it... hi hi.
In a ham radio context, this family of concepts to me isn't too different than reducing harmonics, birdies, or circuit problems with regulation to address anomalies that get in our way and others.
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One last word about intent in case i didn't otherwise say it. In the event the Louisiana language cited was prepared to make said HOA appear... intellectually challenged, this i think is a different but not unrelated topic.
Put another way, surely everyone here has at one point worked with ...that guy at the office. Hi hi.
If thats the case one might be wise to quote Jeremy Clarkson with the question, 'what were they thinking?'
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While this thread seems to refer mostly to HOA antenna restrictions this municipal restriction case may be of interest to some. I well recall the case as it played out in the courts and at the time lived not far from Randy and worked him often on VHF/UHF.
In summary, the municipality of Winslow Township in southern New Jersey passed an ordinance that prohibited radio transmission within the township limits that would interfere with or disturb others. I know you're saying they can't do that but they did and it was upheld by the highest court it was appealed to at the time. I'm assuming it was cost-prohibitive to resume the appeal.
The court's opinion and a link to more details.
"Plaintiff is an amateur radio operator duly licensed by the Federal Communications Commission. In a prerogative writ action the trial court rejected his attack on a municipal ordinance restricting his right to transmit. On appeal from that decision plaintiff attacks the ordinance as ultra vires, not within the power of municipal government and, in any event, an invalid attempt to regulate in a field entirely preempted by federal statute. We reject those arguments and affirm."
https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65 (https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65)
I find it interesting in that apparently the Court determined that Winslow Township was not trying to regulate his transmission(s) but the alleged adverse results such transmissions might have on township residents.
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But CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions DO NOT violate any Federal, State, or local laws.
Doesn't that depend on the exact wording of the CC&R restrictions? For instance, what if the exact wording is so inclusive that it also restricts cell phone and indoor WiFi access point antenna's?
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But CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions DO NOT violate any Federal, State, or local laws.
Doesn't that depend on the exact wording of the CC&R restrictions? For instance, what if the exact wording is so inclusive that it also restricts cell phone and indoor WiFi access point antenna's?
No. Those devices don't have visible antennas that would affect the aesthetics, welfare, and safety of the community. Like baby monitors, garage door openers, etc. Also, cell phones and WiFi are now an integral and essential part of society as a whole, like the OTARD rule that permits small satellite dishes and other TV antennas. Trying to debate those things in court as an argument to allow ham radio antennas would be a waste of time and money.
Most CC&R's specify "radio transmitting and receiving antennas" anyway. CC&R antenna restrictions are fully enforceable by law, and subject to whatever the HOA Architectural Committee decides otherwise, if applicable.
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What most people in this forum forget is there are 50 states, seven territorial jurisdictions and to have to contend with court dicta from the multitude of appeal courts.
Speaking of the USA only, YMMV.
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So... I just have to ask ...
Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.
Brian - K6BRN
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So... I just have to ask ...
Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.
Brian - K6BRN
How many hams would be able to finance such a venture?
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So... I just have to ask ...
Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.
Brian - K6BRN
Bandpass filters for all, and keep your fingers on the RF Gain control if the guy two doors down hits the same band as you with legal limit ;). Maybe call the subdivision “Tower Heights”.
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So... I just have to ask ...
Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.
Brian - K6BRN
Hand me your cash...I can spend it uselessly for you.
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So... I just have to ask ... Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.Brian - K6BRN
How many hams would be able to finance such a venture?
Me and many others, possibly YOU, too.
Special interest condo ownership is very common, especially among boating, golf and tennis communities. And they WERE NOT terribly expensive. The process of CONVERTING a small condo association is not that complex nor that expensive, either. It just takes a time and requires coordination. There have been decades to do this - so the opportunity has always been there as the housing market waxed and waned, as it always does.
1. Find a suitable small condo development - 5 to 20 units (there are PLENTY of those on the East Coast and probably everywhere else - I have one unit in a BOATING special interest development)
2. Buy into one yourself and convince other hams to do so as well. Housing inventory right now is insanely low - but in normal times its NOT, especially for condos.
3. Once ham ownership hits 66% or better, amend the bylaws to be ham-friendly and include antennas on community property. Or even fund a fantastic community station..
The only real reason this would NOT happen is that hams would have to decide for themselves that they didn't want to live next to other hams. Unlike boaters, tennis players, golfers ... etc.
So - when and where has this happened, and if not, why not?
Brian - K6BRN
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So... I just have to ask ... Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.Brian - K6BRN
The only real reason this would NOT happen is that hams would have to decide for themselves that they didn't want to live next to other hams. Unlike boaters, tennis players, golfers ... etc.
Brian - K6BRN
I know the last thing I'd want is another HF active ham living within a minimum 500 feet from me, especially another high power contester ;).
Bob K7JQ
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Hi Bob:
I know the last thing I'd want is another HF active ham living within a minimum 500 feet from me, especially another high power contester ;). Bob K7JQ
... and THAT is probably the crux of the matter. Hams really don't like to live too close together. And sharing even a "super station" during a solo contest just doesn't work.
So perhaps even hams don't want other hams living next to them in tight HOAs (or with grouped antennas, as on Field Day)? THAT's pretty humorous!
My CA residence is on a tightly packed beach cities lot and there are other hams within 500 feet, one of which is an avid contester. We've had our moments, but have learned to live with each other.
Now imagine 5 to 20 hams in a compact, tightly packed condo development. Hmmmm.
We have met the enemy - and they are US! :)
Brian - K6BRN
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(1981 date) While this thread seems to refer mostly to HOA antenna restrictions this municipal restriction case may be of interest to some. I well recall the case as it played out in the courts and at the time lived not far from Randy and worked him often on VHF/UHF.
In summary, the municipality of Winslow Township in southern New Jersey passed an ordinance that prohibited radio transmission within the township limits that would interfere with or disturb others. I know you're saying they can't do that but they did and it was upheld by the highest court it was appealed to at the time. I'm assuming it was cost-prohibitive to resume the appeal.
The court's opinion and a link to more details.
"Plaintiff is an amateur radio operator duly licensed by the Federal Communications Commission. In a prerogative writ action the trial court rejected his attack on a municipal ordinance restricting his right to transmit. On appeal from that decision plaintiff attacks the ordinance as ultra vires, not within the power of municipal government and, in any event, an invalid attempt to regulate in a field entirely preempted by federal statute. We reject those arguments and affirm."
https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65 (https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65)
I find it interesting in that apparently the Court determined that Winslow Township was not trying to regulate his transmission(s) but the alleged adverse results such transmissions might have on township residents.
See SouthwesternBell:
SOUTHWESTERN BELL WIRELESS INC SMSA SMSA v. JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
SOUTHWESTERN BELL WIRELESS INC., fka Southwestern Bell Mobile Systems, Inc. as General Partner of Kansas City SMSA Limited Partnership and Kansas City SMSA Limited Partnership, Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, Defendant-Appellant.
No. 98-3264.
-- December 27, 1999
Pierre Letter also, Local Jurisdictional Courts try to uphold local jurisdictions laws, be careful making some Podunk town court's ruling the final word, lots of dicta out there! Most local areas try to steer clear of Federal Type issues in areas of settled law.
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So... I just have to ask ...
Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams? Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.
Brian - K6BRN
Preppers, off grid types, hunters and the like group up together, just in different jurisdictions, what might work in one area will not catch wind in another area!
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I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.
I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich
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I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.
I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich
IMO, you got it right, Rich. We all have choices. If ham radio is a overriding factor in your life, and you must have the antennas you want, don't move to a HOA/CC&R community. If, unfortunately, financial and other living constraints limit you strictly to one of these communities, then compromises are in order. I've lived in three such communities in the last 30 years, and I *always* found a way to get on the air.
Bob K7JQ
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We interrupt this HOA Lapdog apologist status quo program for an important message to open up a well deserved can of "Whoopie-You-Know-What" on the all too deserving, and you know who you are:
Oh Boy, it's been awhile since I stopped by here, you might say I've been kind of "busy" for the past couple of years...
And once again, I see newbies here trying to get advice, only to be met by the HOA Lapdog Lurkers, and Antenna Experts and it's time (again!) to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT.
So I'm changing hats here for a bit, and am now wearing the FANCY hat of self appointed Moral Sheriff: And it's high time to CLEAR THE DIRTY AIR IN THIS POLECAT FORUM TOWN OF ALL OF THE HOA LAPDOG STANK!!!
You CAN Cowtow to the HOA Man...
OR:You can work towards REMOViNG THEIR POWER by getting the law CHANGED to ELIMINATE the HOA strangulation of our avocation, and MANY MORE of your harmless pursuits of happiness, not to mention freedom of expression and free speech rights.
Some people are under the VERY mistaken impression that these things can't be changed, and OTHER people are pretending otherwise who know better, but in these here United States: They CAN be changed, and change happens every day.
HOA's relative and very arbitrary dictatorships are eroding: They USED to be able to tell you that you couldn't have a clothesline or put up solar panels, or have a flag. As of late, they can't disallow a flag, but it MUST be a US flag! No State flag. No joint display of say a US and a Canadian flag. No Blue Line flag. No POW flag. No Pride Flag. So how long are HOAs going to be able to limit your freedom of speech and expression when any other said flag can be displayed on that very same flagpole until people say enough is enough?
Some (but not all) of the HOA Lapdogs that reside here have pretended otherwise about change.
But the last time around, the single vote of a Silly Sunshine State Senator (who has since been sent packing by VOTERS) was what it took for HOA Tyranny to barely hold on to their power. And that was the last time. But there WILL be a Next Time, and sooner or later, the HOA chickens ARE going to come home to roost: They know that they are hanging by a thread, and just ONE ruling not in their favour will ELIMINATE a LOT of their really mean spirited pettiness!
Don't put up with HOA Crap. HOA Lapdogs are wanting to have it their way, because they have always had privilege and money to keep the status quo in their favour.
But the New Kids are NOT going to be saying "uncle" to arbitrary HOA lockstep authority, and that's a GOOD THING!
Google HOA on YouTube and see the horror stories about HOAs. And witness? More and more People who are mad as hell, and they're NOT taking it from the HOA Anymore! What's more? More of them are WINNING their battles with HOAs that have been way, way, way, WAY out of control.
Finally, an HF antenna WILL work in an attic that's insulated with foil backed insulation:That's right, I said it! After all, I am just as "qualified" to be an "Antenna Expert" as I am a "Moral Sheriff", so there!
Too many people are discouraged even from experimenting with stealth antenna installations by "Antenna Experts" here. This general crushing of Spirits by antenna "experts" does not please THIS "Self Appointed Antenna Expert/Moral Sheriff" one iota.
Don't let them tell you that if you don't live in an HOA that you can't have an opinion or work for change, because that's crap too.
Don't let them tell you that "well you signed it" so you can't change it, because you CAN.
Don't let them tell you that HOAs are for the most part cooperative with accommodating Hams, because THE FACTS don't bear that out, and I don't have to pull that data out of my shirt pocket, when they don't pull it out of theirs, either… Nice Try!
Make it BETTER. Make it so that an up and coming kid stuck in an HOA gets HIS chance at amateur radio because remember, HE didn't sign anything!
Finally: IN SPITE of HOAs, there WILL be backyard dog boxes, children will play in yards that occasionally sport crabgrass instead of being deadly chemical wastelands of boring golf turf conformity. Backyard grills will sizzle, and the sound of popping Pabst beer cans opening while listening to Ray Charles songs will be heard, and Individuality and Laughter will be celebrated. And QSOs will be exchanged by Free People in Towns and HOAs alike!
We now return you to the Regular HOA Lapdog Apologists at this time….
No Property Value was harmed in the making of this post.
73 DE W8LV BILL
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Hi Bill. I hear your anger and frustration.
So I'm changing hats here for a bit, and am now wearing the FANCY hat of self appointed Moral Sheriff: And it's high time to CLEAR THE DIRTY AIR IN THIS POLECAT FORUM TOWN OF ALL OF THE HOA LAPDOG STANK!!!
Well, OK. But what's YOUR beef, since you don't live in an HOA community but out in the backwoods of Ohio (been there myself and love it) in a single family home surrounded by - not much. Plenty of room to put up whatever you want. That's really a sweet deal - not much to complain about, HOA-wise.
You CAN Cowtow to the HOA Man...
You mean, pretty much to us, ourselves, hams that is, because we've already established earlier or in another thread, I forget, that hams generally don't WANT other hams next door. It's been pointed out to me, when I asked about hams starting their own HOA, that an HOA packed with hams would be a nightmare for all operators. Field day on steroids, 24/7, 365 days a year, in most HOAs where units are very close together.
OR:You can work towards REMOViNG THEIR POWER by getting the law CHANGED to ELIMINATE the HOA strangulation of our avocation, and MANY MORE of your harmless pursuits of happiness, not to mention freedom of expression and free speech rights.
Well, as you pointed out (see "avocation") Amateur Radio is a hobby, not a livelihood, so nobody's welfare is being threatened and there's room for compromise, as any ham with an XYL knows. Not sure what HOAs have to do with free speech. HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA, not free speech. It seems like you're confusing the two. One is not the other.
Some people are under the VERY mistaken impression that these things can't be changed, and OTHER people are pretending otherwise who know better, but in these here United States: They CAN be changed, and change happens every day.
Sure thing. Vote the right way and put enough pressure on lawmakers and the people can change a lot, and do every day. But only about bout 12% of the U.S. population lives in an HOA in the USA, out of the 65% that owns homes. The other 53% of homeowners don't have a vested interest in this and the 35% that rent or are homeless probably don't care, either. (easy to look up) So it will take some real special interest campaigning to change things. The ARRL has tried hard to do this nationally without huge success. Maybe we need to try harder locally - but also need to avoid shooting ourselves in the foot by being threatening. Action and reaction is not just a law of physics.
HOA's relative and very arbitrary dictatorships are eroding: They USED to be able to tell you that you couldn't have a clothesline or put up solar panels, or have a flag. As of late, they can't disallow a flag, but it MUST be a US flag! No State flag. No joint display of say a US and a Canadian flag. No Blue Line flag. No POW flag. No Pride Flag. So how long are HOAs going to be able to limit your freedom of speech and expression when any other said flag can be displayed on that very same flagpole until people say enough is enough?
Yep. HOAs can be real frustrating. They're largely run by people very much like the average citizen who has no experience whatsoever in civics, leadership, engineering or finance. And partly because of that, bad things can happen, like the Florida Surfside Condo collapse from what appears to be lack of maintenance, IMO.
Some (but not all) of the HOA Lapdogs that reside here have pretended otherwise about change.
The first step in taking away someone's rights and dignity is to brand them with a nasty label. Abuse soon follows. Is that REALLY your intent? If not, maybe we should avoid labels and name calling.
But the last time around, the single vote of a Silly Sunshine State Senator (who has since been sent packing by VOTERS) was what it took for HOA Tyranny to barely hold on to their power. And that was the last time. But there WILL be a Next Time, and sooner or later, the HOA chickens ARE going to come home to roost: They know that they are hanging by a thread, and just ONE ruling not in their favour will ELIMINATE a LOT of their really mean spirited pettiness!
OK. Well... Good luck with that. But first you should probably get your logic straight to present in a reasonable, non-threatening way, so you can debate the issues with the people who count - the HOA owners, lawmakers, etc. The anger part is loud and clear as are the threats, and threats and anger usually shuts down the whole process.
Don't put up with HOA Crap. HOA Lapdogs are wanting to have it their way, because they have always had privilege and money to keep the status quo in their favour.
I'm confused. If only wealthy people live in HOAs (I thought they liked mansions), and you don't live in an HOA (you have a stand-alone home- much better - a mansion in comparison), and hams don't really want to operate next to each other anyway, who's hurting? Other people who WANT to be in an HOA (which is pretty much voluntary)? I mean, gee, what if you rent and live in an apartment? Isn't it worse? At least in an HOA you have full control of what's INSIDE the home. Seems like it's the rich people who are complaining about other rich people. Amateur radio's NOT an inexpensive hobby, either.
But the New Kids are NOT going to be saying "uncle" to arbitrary HOA lockstep authority, and that's a GOOD THING!
I'm not sure who those kids are - not mine (they live in apartments), but there are probably much more constructive things they could be doing and better causes to go after. This one really doesn't seem to have a huge payoff, life-wise.
Google HOA on YouTube and see the horror stories about HOAs. And witness? More and more People who are mad as hell, and they're NOT taking it from the HOA Anymore! What's more? More of them are WINNING their battles with HOAs that have been way, way, way, WAY out of control.
Its' funny. Whenever property is owned in common - a boat, a car, a home, etc., there are always disputes. Some pretty bitter. ESPECIALLY with relatives! The key to avoiding problems is to never get into that situation to begin with if you don't like the arrangement. Been there, done that. Lots of stories about co-owned boats on-line, too.
Finally, an HF antenna WILL work in an attic that's insulated with foil backed insulation:That's right, I said it! After all, I am just as "qualified" to be an "Antenna Expert" as I am a "Moral Sheriff", so there!
OK. That's good news. Because the HOA just chopped down the tree my wire antenna was tied to (CT QTH) because it was destroying the driveway (it really was) and I have to go up in the attic and see if I can manage with a new antenna up there. I like challenges and experimentation, even at my age. (I'm not a "new kid")
Too many people are discouraged even from experimenting with stealth antenna installations by "Antenna Experts" here. This general crushing of Spirits by antenna "experts" does not please THIS "Self Appointed Antenna Expert/Moral Sheriff" one iota.
Everybody is completely responsible for their own choices and actions and their consequences. That's the harsh reality of life, like it or not. If somebody runs away because of a few negative voices on a forum, that's up to them. Suppressing those forum opinions, negative or not, suppresses freedom of speech - and I thought you were in favor of freedom of speech. Anyone who is discouraged from putting up an antenna needs to actually do some real research and think for themselves - THEN make a decision. (I did and will continue with the attic antenna) Not doing that is giving up freedom. Taking responsibility for what you decide and do - What a refreshing thought! We need to stop posing as victims and blaming others- there's no benefit to mined on that account.
Don't let them tell you that if you don't live in an HOA that you can't have an opinion or work for change, because that's crap too.
Don't let them tell you that "well you signed it" so you can't change it, because you CAN.
It's a contract, like any other, and can be changed if there is a valid and equitable reason as decided by courts. That's fundamental to the "Rule of Law". And without laws, there is anarchy and survival of the meanest, not freedom.
Don't let them tell you that HOAs are for the most part cooperative with accommodating Hams, because THE FACTS don't bear that out, and I don't have to pull that data out of my shirt pocket, when they don't pull it out of theirs, either… Nice Try!
HOA responses vary as much as the people in them and most people respond to anger as a threat and close the door. There are better ways.
Make it BETTER. Make it so that an up and coming kid stuck in an HOA gets HIS chance at amateur radio because remember, HE didn't sign anything!
Soooo. This is about a teenager living at home in his or her parents HOA, without a job and still in school (hopefully). Well, the vast majority of those are either doing homework, out playing sports, hanging out with friends or playing video games or on social media sites. Very few will be pining away for amateur radio, especially HF operation. I wish there were more! And the few that are into amateur radio like VHF/UHF better than HF, and VHF/UHF works just fine from any home. The antennas are tiny, even the fixed station ones. How do I know? I'm a Dad, with kids. VHF handi-talkies were fun and so were repeaters and digital systems. HF SSB rag-chewing and CW they laughed at. So - how fast can YOU send and copy CW?
Finally: IN SPITE of HOAs, there WILL be backyard dog boxes, children will play in yards that occasionally sport crabgrass instead of being deadly chemical wastelands of boring golf turf conformity. Backyard grills will sizzle, and the sound of popping Pabst beer cans opening while listening to Ray Charles songs will be heard, and Individuality and Laughter will be celebrated. And QSOs will be exchanged by Free People in Towns and HOAs alike!
Well, that's what I enjoy just about every time I'm at my HOA, especially in the summer. Lots of fun talking in the back yard, with our dogs and around the pool (but I prefer Yuengling to Pabst - its America's oldest brewery and beer - a lager, and still tastier than the IPAs and imports, IMO). We do our own landscaping, BTW. It's not always the greatest - we're amateurs at it - but it's worthwhile for the social events. And NO, I've NEVER been on the board of directors. I get along with my neighbors, for the most part, even if we sometimes disagree and I get funny questions about my "hobby". Got lucky, I guess.
We now return you to the Regular HOA Lapdog Apologists at this time….
No Property Value was harmed in the making of this post.
73 DE W8LV BILL
Heh! Thank you, Bill. Very appreciated.
Have a good summer and stay cool (in all things).
Ohio is beautiful country and I miss going there. But my boy that used to live out there moved back to California, so I have no reason to visit anymore.
Brian - K6BRN
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Some people have self-esteem issues and this is their therapy, such as it is.
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Oops, looks like Bill is off his meds again ;D.
Seriously, he has his soapbox, and that’s OK…he’s entitled to his opinion. I don’t know if he’s ever lived in an HOA community to have such a negative outlook, but in my 30 years in three HOA’s, I’ve never had an incident with the Board, and I don’t know of any neighbors that have. I’m sure there are some rogue HOA’s out there, but they’re very few and far between. And the problems you see on YouTube are mostly those that rebel against the rules that they signed up for in the first place! In today’s speak, “Karen” and/or her husband ;).
Yeah, I wish I had better antenna options, but I read the CC&R’s before purchase, and have used stealth antennas…attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdrivers…with great success. Over 290 countries and decent contest scores…all on CW and SSB. I don’t do FT8…tried it, and maybe could last for 15 minutes at a pop. Like watching paint dry (IMO) ;). But if you like it, it’s a great mode for HOA operating.
Bob K7JQ
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Oops, looks like Bill is off his meds again ;D.
Seriously, he has his soapbox, and that’s OK…he’s entitled to his opinion. I don’t know if he’s ever lived in an HOA community to have such a negative outlook, but in my 30 years in three HOA’s, I’ve never had an incident with the Board, and I don’t know of any neighbors that have. I’m sure there are some rogue HOA’s out there, but they’re very few and far between. And the problems you see on YouTube are mostly those that rebel against the rules that they signed up for in the first place! In today’s speak, “Karen” and/or her husband ;).
Yeah, I wish I had better antenna options, but I read the CC&R’s before purchase, and have used stealth antennas…attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdrivers…with great success. Over 290 countries and decent contest scores…all on CW and SSB. I don’t do FT8…tried it, and maybe could last for 15 minutes at a pop. Like watching paint dry (IMO) ;). But if you like it, it’s a great mode for HOA operating.
Bob K7JQ
I think your first impression is correct. Why people are driven to comment on something about which they know nothing or have no experience with is somewhat aberrant.
As someone like you who actually has experience, life isn’t all about antennas and we seem to achieve greater accomplishments than do those who prefer blaming their limitations on other things. And as to the incoherent rants we read from people who don’t or likely never lived in an HOA, their opinion is generally quite uninformed and ironic given they do precisely what they rant against - telling others what they are doing wrong. And he doesn’t even know he is doing it.
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Having lived in both hoa and non hoa locations there is compromise if it's handled correctly.
I did ( and still do) small engine repairs.
I discussed this at one of the meetings
And providing for just the cost of the parts only ( no labor fees) I did the repairs on their equipment.
No zoning violation complaints whatsoever!
It never hurts to include, demonstrate, and educate others into the hobby.
There is a certain sense of nostalgia in the hobby especially when history is involved.
Experiencing how bygone Amateurs communicated prior to cellphone and internet can sometimes spark the curiosity that infects all of us in the amateur radio hobby.
This will not happen with all people primarily because if someone adamantly opposes amateur radio.
I find it's mostly because they don't want to appear stupid about it.
If you think that wrong try teaching someone linux
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HOA's are simple, they are made to keep trailer trash out of the neighborhood like ham radio.
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HOA's are simple, they are made to keep trailer trash out of the neighborhood like ham radio.
That can’t be correct - I’m in one. Must be some other purpose…..
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"HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA". The unique thing about HOAs is that no one gets a say as to what's in them - except perhaps the original developer but doubt even they read them. They just call their lawyer and tell them to file their 'normal' CC&Rs on the land the developer has bought and off they go. A normal contract (or Agreement) is between two people or entities where they Agree on what they want and write it up. This never happens with an HOA and CC&Rs. They are put in place before there are any land owners other than the developer. This is not an agreement. Being forced to sign it if you want to live there doesn't make it an 'agreement'. While HOAs & CC&Rs probably started out in developments for middle class and up, in some states they are everywhere. The argument that if you don't like an HOA you should 'go somewhere else' makes no sense when every development has CC&Rs. I don't know what the solution is but I will say that CC&Rs in which no homeowner has any real say are the most undemocratic invention in this country. I would like it to be easy for anyone wanting to get into ham radio, especially kids, to be able to put up decent antennas (or have a basketball net on your driveway) and learn about the hobby. CC&Rs can be and are a huge obstacle. I have no personal axe to grind as I have a lot with no CC&Rs. But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!
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But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!
To my knowledge in most cases, CC&R’s can be revised/modified/added/removed by a majority, or more (maybe 2/3), vote by the member homeowners. The problem is that in a community of perhaps 500 or more homes, getting them to attend HOA meetings or participate in voting is difficult. In a younger community, most folks won’t even know what ham radio is ;). And the thought of anything aesthetically unpleasant/ugly doesn’t help.
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"HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA". The unique thing about HOAs is that no one gets a say as to what's in them - except perhaps the original developer but doubt even they read them. They just call their lawyer and tell them to file their 'normal' CC&Rs on the land the developer has bought and off they go. A normal contract (or Agreement) is between two people or entities where they Agree on what they want and write it up. This never happens with an HOA and CC&Rs. They are put in place before there are any land owners other than the developer. This is not an agreement. Being forced to sign it if you want to live there doesn't make it an 'agreement'. While HOAs & CC&Rs probably started out in developments for middle class and up, in some states they are everywhere. The argument that if you don't like an HOA you should 'go somewhere else' makes no sense when every development has CC&Rs. I don't know what the solution is but I will say that CC&Rs in which no homeowner has any real say are the most undemocratic invention in this country. I would like it to be easy for anyone wanting to get into ham radio, especially kids, to be able to put up decent antennas (or have a basketball net on your driveway) and learn about the hobby. CC&Rs can be and are a huge obstacle. I have no personal axe to grind as I have a lot with no CC&Rs. But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!
What you describe is in fact a contractual agreement commonly known as an adhesion contract. I won’t bother explaining as you can easily look it up. There is no such thing as a “normal” agreement.
Regardless, as has been stated many times, HOAs can and often do grant waivers or modification upon request to vary from the requirement listed in CC&Rs which obviates any need to actually change them. In our average size HOA, in one recent month, over 200 modifications or waivers were granted. Implying all HOA have no option but to rigidly enforce CC&Rs is incorrect.
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I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.
I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich
IMO, you got it right, Rich. We all have choices. If ham radio is a overriding factor in your life, and you must have the antennas you want, don't move to a HOA/CC&R community. If, unfortunately, financial and other living constraints limit you strictly to one of these communities, then compromises are in order. I've lived in three such communities in the last 30 years, and I *always* found a way to get on the air.
Bob K7JQ
And most of it is compromise, and including others.
My boat was a 6 person pontoon boat.
Every summer I took neighbors and their kids on small lake and fishing cruises.
I didn't need to but I never had any problems with them either.
But the point of it is, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but ok for me but not for thee is not congenial to good neighbor relations.
I would love to have neighboring Amateurs
Even if we all had stations, there is 3rd party operations.
Kids I would love to teach classes again.
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This is why HOA's do not like hams. No one want to see your clothesline on top of your house or trashy car. No one wants to live next door to you.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.5gNZdbf1n27BZRXvJbGO0AHaE8%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=e5fa5cc9fb0a87aed02e43e8e01987e157394a36dcef6d9f9fdd53fa5fe9ce6e&ipo=images) (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.a3sNbomHFu_bMJFnHlKcuAAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=c8e725693d01cbe7e4cfa4236ffc9c7e0e941d1f2c2459b339e1a87c55d97b01&ipo=images)
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This is why HOA's do not like hams. No one want to see your clothesline on top of your house or trashy car. No one wants to live next door to you.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse2.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.5gNZdbf1n27BZRXvJbGO0AHaE8%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=e5fa5cc9fb0a87aed02e43e8e01987e157394a36dcef6d9f9fdd53fa5fe9ce6e&ipo=images) (https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP.a3sNbomHFu_bMJFnHlKcuAAAAA%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=c8e725693d01cbe7e4cfa4236ffc9c7e0e941d1f2c2459b339e1a87c55d97b01&ipo=images)
How did you get pictures of my clothesline and car ;D ;D ;D. Seriously, that car is so ridiculous, it looks photo-shopped ::) ::).
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Seriously, that car is so ridiculous, it looks photo-shopped ::) ::).
RU sure?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-5aOvIiiEtAo%2FT4fmGC-8I1I%2FAAAAAAAAFMM%2FGdIt_N2Q-FA%2Fs1600%2F4648961957_e715f370c0_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=dd41fbc5e0074af9ac98d1a7cbd72a0974acd2ecd7dce46b4142551ce7d0a986&ipo=images)
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Seriously, that car is so ridiculous, it looks photo-shopped ::) ::).
RU sure?
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-5aOvIiiEtAo%2FT4fmGC-8I1I%2FAAAAAAAAFMM%2FGdIt_N2Q-FA%2Fs1600%2F4648961957_e715f370c0_b.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=dd41fbc5e0074af9ac98d1a7cbd72a0974acd2ecd7dce46b4142551ce7d0a986&ipo=images)
Talk about distracted driving :o!
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Good grief! Is that thing drivable? Looks like all the airbags are gone or covered, too. Hmmm. Wonder what the resale value is?
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Car's too old! It's sporting those 5 MPH bumpers from the 70s.
Will Rogers
K5WLR