eHam

eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: W6UXB on January 14, 2022, 05:04:43 PM

Title: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W6UXB on January 14, 2022, 05:04:43 PM
Totally agree with this, I was forced into HOA with my wife's health problems, still want to enjoy my hobby!
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 15, 2022, 10:58:01 AM
UXB:  We can always find "one-book" information on any facet of ham radio....rather it be QRP or EME and everything in between.

I've never seen a much needed book on Amateur Radio and HOAs!  That would be a fascinating read or perhaps a challenge for some writer!

After all, there was a time when clandestine radio operating was the ultimate challenge for some.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: N6MST on January 16, 2022, 11:42:20 AM
I've never seen a much needed book on Amateur Radio and HOAs!

There is an entire section about this in the ARRL Antenna Book. It's called "Small Transmitting Loops" and in the edition I have it's section 5.3
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 17, 2022, 11:30:27 AM
MST:  Thanks for the info.  HOA radio is a 'whole book' subject dealing with antennas, gear, power and even operating times.  Using loop antennas creates more problems than they solve. However, I will say they're better than no antenna!

I bought one (1) ARRL Antenna book several decades ago and after reading it a few times came to the conclusion that an antenna can't work!  Never bought another ARRL "Antenna" book. 

Thanks again. 

Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: N6MST on January 17, 2022, 01:11:55 PM
Using loop antennas creates more problems than they solve.

Hm, I guess nobody ever told that to the folks successfully using loops every day.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: AC2EU on January 17, 2022, 02:51:38 PM
HOAs aren't a radio problem, it's a legal one.  What can ARRL possibly do to help with thousand of thousand of very specific contracts signed by the homeowner? Its not a "one size fits all" situation.
Some hams are stuck with stealth.
Some hams get some slack from the HO board.
Some hams move.

If you really don't know where to start' Consult a local lawyer who may be familiar with how your HOA operates when granting variances.
Bottom line; you signed away some of your rights when you bought in. Maybe the agreement  can be modified, maybe not...
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 19, 2022, 09:29:37 AM
Two things:  1 - I never indicated that loop antennas can't be use "successfully."  They are.

2 - People who sign a HOA contract have no right to seek a lawyer's services to get around the contract.  MY opinion.

My initial comment was I saw a need for a book to help those who find themselves restricted by a HOA contract.  Read "stealth" here. Nothing more. 

Perhaps some wannabe writer can step up and be counted?  Or maybe someone who can research and accumulate already published articles and put them into a book.

Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W1VT on January 19, 2022, 10:19:14 AM
Maybe something along the lines of Paul Wade's online Microwave Book?  Except for hams in HOAs.

http://www.w1ghz.org/antbook/preface.htm
"On the other hand, I keep trying new ideas and learning new things, particularly about antennas.  Many of these come from other hams who read the articles and explain things better or simply ask questions that get me thinking or reading.  Then I'd like to go back and revise the articles, but how?  One way might be to put the articles online, with instant update capability.  As I thought about reorganizing the material,  it occured to me a that it might become an online book, which can remain unfinished.  Already there is material here that is unavailable anywhere else."
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K7JQ on January 19, 2022, 11:21:49 AM

2 - People who sign a HOA contract have no right to seek a lawyer's services to get around the contract.  MY opinion.


One always has a "right" to hire a lawyer to circumvent a CC&R, but they're just wasting their time and money. If a CC&R violates a Federal or State law, a different story, but you can fight that without a lawyer.

As a HOA/CC&R dweller with antenna restrictions, I agree with you. Upon home purchase, you signed an agreement (essentially a contract) to abide by the provisions of the CC&R's, and allow the HOA to legally enforce them. It's up to you to decide to do one of three things when dealing with ham radio antenna restrictions/prohibitions:

1. Abide strictly by the rule, and abandon your pursuit of ham radio.
2. Ask the HOA for a variance to allow you to have some accommodation for an antenna. If they
    turn you down, you notified them that you're a ham radio operator.
3. Go with a stealth antenna, and take your chances that no one will notice. Sometimes it's
    better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: KH6AQ on January 20, 2022, 02:07:06 PM
I have lived at four HOA QTHs with decent HF success. Once I got the antenna situation dialed in (they caught me on the first try) I ended up with an antenna and power that allowed worldwide CW DX on even 80 meters. 
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 21, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
AQ:  THIS is what I'm talking about!  You're not the only one with both failures and success and these experiences should be documented with easy access.  Thank you.

Al - K8AXW
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K7JQ on January 21, 2022, 10:37:30 AM
KH6AQ and I have extensive experience living in HOA's (I've been in three) with antenna restriction CC&R's. I've gone with #3 in my comment above - go stealth without asking for HOA permission. Thirty years now of HF contesting, DXing, and ragchewing fun in CW, SSB, and RTTY, using screwdriver antennas and attic dipoles.

Bob K7JQ
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: KH6AQ on January 22, 2022, 07:40:08 AM
We have had similar HOA experiences. The "ultimate" HOA antenna for me was a ground mounted Tarheel 200A-HP screwdriver antenna hidden inside a 5' length of 4" x 4" hollow vinyl fence post. I got that idea from a photo at the Tarheel website. On one side at the top a small wooden birdhouse was attached. During the day a 3' mobile whip was attached using a Hustler quick disconnect coupler. The antenna could be seen from the street 100' away thru a see-thru fence yet no one ever asked about it, not even the patrollers who caught my first antenna attempt. Various whips were attached depending on the band, what DX I was after and the time of day. The long antenna whip extensions were used under the cover of darkness when the lower bands opened. The longest whips used coupled Hustler mobile mast extensions with a 9' CB whip on top. MFJ makes the longest such whip. A length of 0.625" aluminum tubing slipped over the mast extensions for reinforcement.

The 25' x 50' yard had 90 radials radiating out from the center. I'm sure 32 would have been enough but once I going I got radial fever and kept adding radials all weekend. This made for a low base-referred GND loss of 5-10 ohms depending on the band. Using the 24' whip on 80 meters the calculated radiation efficiency was around 50%. With 1200W it was great for DXing. The input resistance varied depending on the band and the whip in use and an DX Engineering DXE-MM-1 matching transformer as a shunt coil did not take care of all the combinations. The transformer has 1:2 and 1:4 taps. For 1:1 the coax was connected directly. Between the transformer and adjusting the screwdriver from the shack an SWR under 1.5:1 could be found on any band. This was necessary to keep the AL-600 and later the AL-1200 amp happy. I wrote an article on it for AntenneX magazine. The Birdhouse Antenna

3' whip, 40-10 meters
6' whip, 80-10 meters
9' whip, 80-17 meters
13.5' whip, 80-30 meters
24' whip, 160-40 meters

Tarheel https://www.tarheelantennas.com/mobile_antennas

Hustler Quick Disconnect https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/hsr-qd-2

Hustler Mast  https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/hsr-mo-2

DXE-MM-1   https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/dxe-mm-1
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 22, 2022, 09:51:22 AM
JQ/AQ:  VERY interesting and well documented! 

It's information and experiences like yours that would help hundreds if not thousands of other HOA dwellers enjoy our hobby. 

Perhaps some Internet/computer wise person could start a collection point for this type of information and assemble it into a book form?
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: KH6AQ on January 22, 2022, 12:32:46 PM
My basic HOA antenna tools have been a manual antenna tuner, TV twin lead and #32 wire. Copper tubing, aluminum tubing, 1 x 2 wood and that sort of thing make for some creations. It can be fun and educational to try different antennas with the idea that none are permanent.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W6MK on January 22, 2022, 04:21:46 PM
 
Perhaps some Internet/computer wise person could start a collection point for this type of information and assemble it into a book form?
I don't live in a building with HOA restrictions yet I regularly read posts on about hams dealing with
restrictive antenna environments, especially those in HOA buildings.

It's some of the most interesting and creative problem-solving in ham radio.

There are many ham websites with ideas for antennas for restricted areas. Sure, someone could compile a useful list of discussions. On the other hand doing a bit of internet cruising on the related topics is fun and informative. And easy.

Even for those of us who live HOA-free!
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K8AXW on January 23, 2022, 09:38:45 AM
Quote
It's some of the most interesting and creative problem-solving in ham radio.

I agree 100%!  However, while surfing the web will produce answers it's extremely time consuming.  Imagine sitting down with a book that is categorized in with real life experiences with where to set up your gear, antennas and how effective they are and how to hide them, power levels, approaching the HOA council....and the other number of subjects. 

How would one develop/find an accumulation point for this subject?  Or would it be a search and document project with the additional burden of acquiring permission to publish from each person?

 IS IT POSSIBLE TO CREATE/ASK FOR A NEW FORUM HERE THAT DEALS ONLY WITH HOA ??
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K7JQ on January 23, 2022, 12:03:10 PM
I believe each HOA/CC&R situation for hams is unique in it’s own right. It would be difficult to generalize what steps one should take in dealing with it. No one-size-fits-all solution…so many variables. CC&R’s are legally enforceable. It’s your choice to determine whether you want to appeal to the HOA for some antenna accommodation, or just do your thing with stealth, and take your chances that you’re not discovered.

IMO, I think this “Antenna Restrictions” forum topic was originally set up for suggesting antenna design ideas for space restricted QTH’s (towers not practical), whether under CC&R’s or not. But it has generally been a pro vs con debate on the HOA/CC&R condition. An “HOA Only” forum would probably just exacerbate the back and forth bickering that already shows up here. And I admit to being a frequent contributor as having extensive experience living in three such communities in the last 30 years ;).

Bob K7JQ
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W2NER on January 23, 2023, 07:58:09 PM
Just a FYI, I live in a HOA and its a PITA to deal with however, I got around it by applying for an approval to install a 30ft flagpole.  This was approved but even if it was denied, its not legal to restrict the erection of a flagpole to display the American flag. This is a federal law so, I was not worried about it at all.  Its now a 43 ft flagpole with wire off the top for an inverted L antenna for 160 meters.  Its been installed as a tilt over and totally insulated from ground.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: LA9XNA on January 24, 2023, 01:30:42 AM
If you plan to work in the 100W range there are a simple option of using a long dopingtestet fishing pole or a spider beam pole.
Have a relatively thin wire fixed to the top.
Set it up in a place where you can extend and retract it in a simple. Add as many counterpoise wires as possible.
Use a longwire tuner like the AH-3 or AH-4 at the bottom connected to the counterpoise and the antenna wire.
Operate during the dark hours.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W2NER on January 24, 2023, 05:19:47 AM
Oh, and I forgot to mention, I run legal limit using a MFJ-998 in the shack, which has worked perfect for many years.  It's a real flagpole, 3.5 in at the base and 1.5 in at the top.


Just a FYI, I live in a HOA and its a PITA to deal with however, I got around it by applying for an approval to install a 30ft flagpole.  This was approved but even if it was denied, its not legal to restrict the erection of a flagpole to display the American flag. This is a federal law so, I was not worried about it at all.  Its now a 43 ft flagpole with wire off the top for an inverted L antenna for 160 meters.  Its been installed as a tilt over and totally insulated from ground.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: KF5KWO on January 24, 2023, 05:53:23 AM
I’ve been lucky in the two HOAs I’ve dealt with. I currently have a 1/4-wave stealth wire vertical and an MFJ 10m Moxon concealed and camouflaged in the trees in our backyard. I’m lucky to have the trees because since I’m on a corner lot, people can drive not just along the front of the property, but up/down one side of it. All the trees do a great job, so if you’ve got trees, you’ve got the perfect place for at least wire antennas. I also have an MFJ-1786 mag loop that is painted and kind-of disguised as yard art/kids’ plaything on top of a 12-foot pole in the backyard. Still conceal from the streets, but I have a cover story. And it doesn’t look like an antenna to the layman, so that makes it nice. I’ve also run a wire loop all the way around the house on the eaves of the roof, about 12 feet off the ground, used it on 75m for a while. Used an MFJ tuner and fed it with twin lead. Check out my QRZ page and look at the map of my QTH, you’ll see what I mean in re the trees. 

In my previous QTH, we lived in an end-unit townhome that backed up to a greenbelt. Along with the MFJ mag loop on that same 12-foot pole secured horizontally to the deck railing with pipe clamps, I made a 40m inverted V, with the feedpoint at the eaves of the roof right outside my 3rd floor bedroom window, and the two lengths of wire going out into that greenbelt. Nobody said anything, heck even — I — could barely see it or notice it unless I knew exactly where to look. 

So, overall, wire is probably the *first* route to consider since it can be very thin and therefore easy to hide in plain sight, but your mileage may vary, so the designs mentioned above are as legit as any other. Having trees and other shielding from the street definitely helps. If you’ve got trees, a vertical (either wire or properly painted) is a great idea, on the verge of being a “no-brainer.” But start small and take your time. It may take a few weekends, you don’t want to be seen outside all day and attract attention. Write down your plan — makes it much easier!!! This way you don’t attract attention and get the lookie-loos curious. After you get one up, just operate with that one for awhile, making sure you don’t get talk about interference, nosey neighbors, etc. Read your HOA newsletter, and attend a meeting to make sure no one is voicing any complaints. Check out your neighborhoods Nextdoor website if they have one, for people asking questions or complaining. After a few months with not a peep from anyone, put up another one if you want. Gotta pretend you’re a secret communicator behind enemy lines!

Jeff, KF5KWO
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K4FMH on January 24, 2023, 07:45:24 AM
One red herring on some comments in this thread. HOA CC&Rs change all the time! Some ban renting of houses (renting and leasing have different legal standing in many states). Required brick options go out of production so new house construction are accommodated. The ability to park vehicles on curbs, for how long, and at what times get changed.

The statement in a CC&R that “no aerials are allowed” when there are plenty of “aerials” for other devices in plain view (security cameras, etc.) is selective enforcement against ham antennas, if that be the case. I watch an “aerial” atop a 50’ mast every day in my HOA neighborhood without so much as a peep from the HOA Board. Why? It is on a sailboat in our neighborhood marina and not even questioned!

Why should amateurs not petition for CC&R change when many, many non-ham radio rules are changed all the time? Go down to a Chancery Court and go through the filings to count the number of HOA CC&R changes are registered. This may change your understanding of the situation. Perhaps not.

73,

Frank
K4FMH
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: WY4J on January 24, 2023, 10:08:05 AM
Upon retirement we purchased a new house in an HOA community. This property was selected because the yard is part of a wooded section which belongs to the community with large trees. In 4 years no one has ever stepped in this wooded area except me. I originally put up a 30 foot flagpole antenna and this worked out well. The following year I ventured out into the woods and erected a full size 133 foot Carolina Windom. Before they laid the sod I spoke to the contruction supervisor and told him that I was going to lay down 1,500 of radials. He did not care what I did since he said it was my property. I even recruited some of his construction workers to dig the base and pour 800 lbs of concrete. The windom is totally stealth, quieter and performs much better than the vertical. So I have two antennas up and no one knows they are there. Of couse, is not the 4 element SteppIR I had in my old QTH but they do the job.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: WA2ONH on January 24, 2023, 12:31:09 PM
A HOA community is The Villages in Florida. They formed a Amateur Radio Club
and published a booklet of all the Antenna ideas brainstormed by its members.

The Villages Amateur Radio Club site is ...
 https://www.k4vrc.com/

Here's a link to that document entitled
2015 Antenna Guide for The Villages
http://www.k4vrc.com/uploads/1/0/1/5/10156032/2015_tvarc_antenna_guide.pdf

The booklet is 73-pages long with approx file size of 8,083kb

Hope it will provide you with some antenna ideas at your HOA QTH.
.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: KF5KWO on January 24, 2023, 01:06:11 PM
@WY4J - Excellent!
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: K7JQ on January 24, 2023, 01:17:28 PM
A HOA community is The Villages in Florida. They formed a Amateur Radio Club
and published a booklet of all the Antenna ideas brainstormed by its members.

The Villages Amateur Radio Club site is ...
 https://www.k4vrc.com/

Here's a link to that document entitled
2015 Antenna Guide for The Villages
http://www.k4vrc.com/uploads/1/0/1/5/10156032/2015_tvarc_antenna_guide.pdf

The booklet is 73-pages long with approx file size of 8,083kb

Hope it will provide you with some antenna ideas at your HOA QTH.
.

They left out an 89 foot crank-up tower and stacked 4-element SteppIR beams with the trombone elements ;D.

Seriously, some great ideas. Where there is a will, there's a way. Looks like the Villages allow for "reasonable accommodation". The screwdriver is the only one with a "B" rating with no tuner needed. I'll vouch for that.
Title: Re: HOA post by Mike
Post by: W4FID on January 25, 2023, 06:01:07 AM
The key may be the power. There will be high voltage at some point of a wire antenna that can be dangerous or a fire hazard if the wire is too close to anything flammable. But the lower the power the lower the risk. QRP does work. Especially now and for the next few years with good sun spots. So at low power you can just throw a wire with good insulation over your roof or a tree branch and end feed it. If it's not invisible enough just pull it down when you're not using it. A hamstick dipole on a painter's pole bungie corded to something goes up and down in minutes and should be OK after dark. With quick disconnects on the hamsticks you can even change bands easily. On 30 meters they are OK. On 20 and above they do surprisingly well. Also CW or FT8 allow more QSOs with less power and less antenna. A loop on a camera tripod or a speaker tripod if you need more stability also goes up/down quickly. I use my LNR loop inside (if the building is frame construction) or on hotel balconies or just outside a door in the  yard often when I travel and have a lot of QSOs and fun. There are several remote tune ones available that allow the antenna to be up to 50 feet from the rig so finding a rig table and antenna spot can work. Be able to work various modes. CW, FT8, SSB. Be as flexible on band choice as you can. Then work whomever you can work on whatever band and mode you can and enjoy the QSOs you do have.