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eHam Forums => Emergency Communications => Topic started by: KK4GMU on February 12, 2022, 08:48:11 AM

Title: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 12, 2022, 08:48:11 AM
Now that many of us are aware that it is possible if not likely that the internet can be taken down nationwide by any number of bad actors, and cell service may be similarly impacted...

What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K4GTE on February 12, 2022, 09:00:59 AM
It would probably take an EMP detonation to take down all internet and cell phones. If that's the case, unless your radio equipment is in a Faraday cage it will be fried as well and useless.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W1VT on February 12, 2022, 09:04:06 AM
If it is raining space junk that can be used to reflect radio signals.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 12, 2022, 09:09:19 AM
It would probably take an EMP detonation to take down all internet and cell phones. If that's the case, unless your radio equipment is in a Faraday cage it will be fried as well and useless.
Hacking is a much more likely cause than EMP. It happens nearly daily on a corporate or local basis. A foreign entity that wants to put us in our place may have means, motive and opportunity.  The technology is there.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 12, 2022, 09:23:14 AM
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

As usual ....

HF frequencies for long-haul communications (yes, its "simplex")

VHF/UHF for local communications (simplex, too)

CW, SSB or even digital (at low rates) is useful on HF, especially during the rising solar cycle we are now in.

Brian - K6BRN

Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6SDW on February 12, 2022, 10:08:01 AM
How about smoke signals or semaphore flags?

GL/73
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W1VT on February 12, 2022, 10:08:15 AM
Meteors  normally entering the atmosphere can easily support a few bit/s data rate on 6M.

Less well known is ionospheric scatter.  I believe Joe Taylor had an interest in that when he was young. Yes, the Joe Taylor that won a Nobel Prize!

http://www.g1ogy.com/www.n1bug.net/prop/ionscatr.html
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K1VSK on February 12, 2022, 10:25:42 AM


What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

Boefungs don’t like EMP.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KC9YAV on February 12, 2022, 11:24:02 AM
Maybe the better question to ask is “How prepared are we / you for a major regional power outage?”  This is more likely given the age and condition of or power grid.  It happens all the time due to natural disasters such as hurricanes, tornados, and ice storms (Texas 2021).  Then there was the east coast black out in 2003 that affected both eastern Canada and the entire northeastern US.

These events result in disruption of internet, cell, cable, fuel, and transportation.  Granted some of these have backup systems, but they only work for so long.

Yes, we Ham’s probably will be able to communicate, we are for the most part a creative lot.  However maybe we should consider how we would fair at home for 7 – 10 days without commercial power or natural gas.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W1VT on February 12, 2022, 12:17:51 PM
However maybe we should consider how we would fair at home for 7 – 10 days without commercial power or natural gas.
Rare October snowstorm brought down tons of trees and many of us were without power for 7 to 10 days.
My house has a fireplace that was used for heat for  the first time in fifty years! 
I have dry wood in the back yard that can be used for heat.

Zak W1VT
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W9FIB on February 12, 2022, 01:36:54 PM
Now that many of us are aware that it is possible if not likely that the internet can be taken down nationwide by any number of bad actors, and cell service may be similarly impacted...

What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

Too many devices with many interconnections to be able to target them all at once.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6CPO on February 15, 2022, 12:29:53 PM
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

As usual ....

HF frequencies for long-haul communications (yes, its "simplex")

VHF/UHF for local communications (simplex, too)

CW, SSB or even digital (at low rates) is useful on HF, especially during the rising solar cycle we are now in.

Brian - K6BRN

Don't forget grid-independent repeaters.  My club has two repeaters that are 100% solar powered.  They will be up even if the electrical grid goes down.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KG4RUL on February 15, 2022, 01:18:20 PM
All disasters are local.  So, what would your communications needs be beyond your immediate neighborhood/community?
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 17, 2022, 11:02:33 AM
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

As usual ....  HF frequencies for long-haul communications (yes, its "simplex").  VHF/UHF for local communications (simplex, too).  CW, SSB or even digital (at low rates) is useful on HF, especially during the rising solar cycle we are now in.  Brian - K6BRN

Don't forget grid-independent repeaters.  My club has two repeaters that are 100% solar powered.  They will be up even if the electrical grid goes down.

Quote
All disasters are local.  So, what would your communications needs be beyond your immediate neighborhood/community?

You guys have definitely lead sheltered lives.  Many emergencies are not local at all - at least not in the sense that a handful of solar powered repeaters will cover them and their comms needs.  HF has routinely closed the gap when that happens.  Just off of the top of my head.... in the USA alone ...

1.  1965 and 2003 East Coast blackouts
2.  2011 Hurricane Irene, which took down much of the East Coast infrastructure for up to two weeks
3.  2017 Puerto Rico in which Hurricane Irma and Maria simply blew away much of the electrical and comms infrastructure on the island.  ARRL was shipping emergency kits out to PR and quite a bit of health and welfare traffic over HF between mainland and PR families happened..

The list simply goes on.

And if you'd like the best option - try a modern satellite phone that supports data as well as voice (Thruaya, Inmarsat, Iridium, etc.).

VHF/UHF repeaters can help - but during weather disasters on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts they are often down, so point-to-point picks up the slack in many cases.

For local disasters, like the 1992 L.A. riots, VHF/UHF repeaters - especially those that interconnect with the phone system via patches, can be very useful.  I used one during that emergency to jump around overloaded/collapsed phone networks and into a working one to contact my XYL on her cellphone.  She and her staff then moved out of the direct path of rioters, just in time.

Glad to hear you've never been involved in a broad area emergency, or just a local area one requiring a phone patch.  It's no fun at all worrying about loved ones in the path of destruction or trying to contact relatives outside (or inside) the weather area via HF and friendly hams just to say you're "OK" and to see if they are, too.  I'm happy my own personal experience has never gone beyond that point.

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: WB8VLC on February 17, 2022, 11:06:40 AM
carrier pidgeons
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KG4RUL on February 18, 2022, 04:03:35 AM
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

As usual ....  HF frequencies for long-haul communications (yes, its "simplex").  VHF/UHF for local communications (simplex, too).  CW, SSB or even digital (at low rates) is useful on HF, especially during the rising solar cycle we are now in.  Brian - K6BRN

Don't forget grid-independent repeaters.  My club has two repeaters that are 100% solar powered.  They will be up even if the electrical grid goes down.

Quote
All disasters are local.  So, what would your communications needs be beyond your immediate neighborhood/community?

You guys have definitely lead sheltered lives.  Many emergencies are not local at all - at least not in the sense that a handful of solar powered repeaters will cover them and their comms needs.  HF has routinely closed the gap when that happens.  Just off of the top of my head.... in the USA alone ...

1.  1965 and 2003 East Coast blackouts
2.  2011 Hurricane Irene, which took down much of the East Coast infrastructure for up to two weeks
3.  2017 Puerto Rico in which Hurricane Irma and Maria simply blew away much of the electrical and comms infrastructure on the island.  ARRL was shipping emergency kits out to PR and quite a bit of health and welfare traffic over HF between mainland and PR families happened..

The list simply goes on.

And if you'd like the best option - try a modern satellite phone that supports data as well as voice (Thruaya, Inmarsat, Iridium, etc.).

VHF/UHF repeaters can help - but during weather disasters on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts they are often down, so point-to-point picks up the slack in many cases.

For local disasters, like the 1992 L.A. riots, VHF/UHF repeaters - especially those that interconnect with the phone system via patches, can be very useful.  I used one during that emergency to jump around overloaded/collapsed phone networks and into a working one to contact my XYL on her cellphone.  She and her staff then moved out of the direct path of rioters, just in time.

Glad to hear you've never been involved in a broad area emergency, or just a local area one requiring a phone patch.  It's no fun at all worrying about loved ones in the path of destruction or trying to contact relatives outside (or inside) the weather area via HF and friendly hams just to say you're "OK" and to see if they are, too.  I'm happy my own personal experience has never gone beyond that point.

Brian - K6BRN

Again, why would an individual need to communicate outside your community.  Reality is that you would communicate with your community disaster agencies.  They would communicate with other agencies outside your community.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6CPO on February 18, 2022, 11:28:40 AM
Maybe the better question to ask is “How prepared are we / you for a major regional power outage?”  This is more likely given the age and condition of or power grid.  It happens all the time due to natural disasters such as hurricanes, tornados, and ice storms (Texas 2021).  Then there was the east coast black out in 2003 that affected both eastern Canada and the entire northeastern US.

These events result in disruption of internet, cell, cable, fuel, and transportation.  Granted some of these have backup systems, but they only work for so long.

Yes, we Ham’s probably will be able to communicate, we are for the most part a creative lot.  However maybe we should consider how we would fair at home for 7 – 10 days without commercial power or natural gas.

Not only is the power grid vulnerable to a natural disaster, but it's also subject to human interference, whether an accident or intentional. In 2011, shortly after I was licensed, Southern California suffered a protracted power outage that lasted 12 hours in some areas.  This was caused by a technician in Arizona that thew the wrong switch, causing a cascading outage that took out power in Imperial, San Diego and parts of Orange County and even into parts of Northern Baja California. 

The first thing I reached for was my HT and by listening around on different repeaters, I was able to get an idea of the extent of the outage even before the local news channels.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 18, 2022, 12:06:48 PM
Again, why would an individual need to communicate outside your community.  Reality is that you would communicate with your community disaster agencies.  They would communicate with other agencies outside your community.

Asked and answered - see above.

Sounds like you've never been through a serious, sustained emergency - even local.  Community disaster "agencies", such as they are, are generally composed of people just like you and me and have their own families and friends to deal with, usually first.  So they are slow to start up and once they do it takes a while for any relief to arrive.  During the great East Coast blizzard of 1978, it took about a week for food and power to begin flowing again, where I lived.  Our home was literally covered by a snow drift.  A local ham with backup power provided comms outside of New England and was able to send and receive messages from relatives in Florida and California during that period.  And I listened in on my HR-10B receiver.  Local comms was mainly by CB, as many were in cars and battery powered.  VHF repeaters were mostly down.  Up in Boston, food and medical supplies were being flown in by helicopter.

As above, I've already told you exactly why I and many others seek out of area communications in an emergency - to communicate our health and welfare status to friends and relatives outside of our area and bring in news.  It may not bring immediate relief, but it does bring a great deal of comfort and peace of mind.  And an occasional news story going out, too.

This has been a staple function of amateur radio since the ARRL (Amateur Radio RELAY League) was founded.

I sincerely hope you never have to experience this situation.  And perhaps if you've never been in a major, relatively long emergency, you'll never understand it.  Which is just fine - you don't need to.

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 18, 2022, 07:16:01 PM
[quote author=KK4GMU link=topic=135600.msg1254654#msg1254654 date=1644684491
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?
[/quote]

Honestly, your screwed for the most part. There is NO commercially available technology INCLUDING ham radio that can be considered reliable enough to ensure continued communications with 'distant parties'.  And in truth, ham radio is NOT that great at it to begin with for a host of reasons.

First reason is the license requirement and getting those 'distant parties' to get a license and a radio and put up an antenna to talk to JUST YOU???? sorry but I don't believe they will feel it's that important until it is, and then it's too late. 

Second reason is the distant part of 'distant parties'.  What is distant?  Across the state, several states, coast to coast?? Each of these presents a problem.  You ever tried to get a WAS (worked all states) certificate?  It's not as easy as you think.  I am in Ohio, and I have a BIG antenna tower.  You might question this... look me up on QRZ.  It's 240 foot tall,, doubt you have one bigger than that, and I can't at will go grab the mike and talk to a specific state with consistency outside of what normal propagation will allow.  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.  So if your distant party is in that skip zone from you,,,, forget it.  Not going to happen, at least not with any regularity and possibly not at all. 

So, IF you can get the other party or parties to even get a ham license and operate the radio.  Then you need to sit down and look carefully at the propagation maps and see if there is a band and an antenna design that will get you there consistently.  Then you need to figure out if you AND them can and will install an antenna of that design in your yard and not get the zoning inspector crawled up your butt about it. 

And outside that, you're back to the stone ages. 
Of course you MIGHT be able to pull it off on a satellite pass.  But again, you are gonna need gear at both ends, a licensed operator at both ends and the satellites are gonna be PACKED with other guys trying to do the same thing you are.  So it being a reliable and consistent means of communications is really not possible. 

And you need to sit and think about your scenario.  What it would take to occur, and what length of time it could last. 
If you look at the power grid, it's a hard target. There are a number of places that if attacked by force or a cyber attack, could in theory be disabled for an extended period of time.  The connected Internet / Web or whatever you want to call it is NOT that way.  There are frankly too many cables to cut and even if they were cut, they can be spliced in a reasonable amount of time.  The destruction of a large number of large transmission transformers is not as simple to fix.  And a cyber attack, unlinking the connected internet by it's very nature limits the amount of time an outage can occur.  Router and firewall configurations are backed up and ready to be restored to the equipment quickly if a router is compromised and would return to service as soon as the configuration was restored.  So even a full outage of ALL of the connected Internet couldn't last more than a few days if caused by a cyber attack.  The stupidity you see in movies of routers and switches catching fire and burning up due to hackers gaining access and running some piece of code is movie crap and NOT at all possible in the real world.  There is no software that will damage hardware short of robots that can beat themself apart, but your PC is not ever gonna get some virus that causes it to never work again. 
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 20, 2022, 02:21:17 PM
Second reason is the distant part of 'distant parties'.  What is distant?  Across the state, several states, coast to coast?  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.  So if your distant party is in that skip zone from you,,,, forget it.  Not going to happen, at least not with any regularity and possibly not at all. 

Brute force doesn't help. NVIS does: 50 to several hundred miles at a time.

I missed quoting your first reason:

"No one there to listen."


There will be hundreds of trained EmComm people in every state.

Quote

So, IF you can get the other party or parties to even get a ham license and operate the radio.  Then you need to sit down and look carefully at the propagation maps and see if there is a band and an antenna design that will get you there consistently.  Then you need to figure out if you AND them can and will install an antenna of that design in your yard and not get the zoning inspector crawled up your butt.

I doubt that most city/county govts/zoning officials would give a hang under these conditions.

Quote

The connected Internet / Web or whatever you want to call it is NOT that way.  There are frankly too many cables to cut and even if they were cut, they can be spliced in a reasonable amount of time.  The destruction of a large number of large transmission transformers is not as simple to fix.  And a cyber attack, unlinking the connected internet by it's very nature limits the amount of time an outage can occur.  Router and firewall configurations are backed up and ready to be restored to the equipment quickly if a router is compromised and would return to service as soon as the configuration was restored.  So even a full outage of ALL of the connected Internet couldn't last more than a few days if caused by a cyber attack.

Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 20, 2022, 08:22:49 PM


Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.


Oh, so you read some books on hacking the Internet and figure that no one that actually takes care of the DNS and routing tables ever has and they would just reload the same code with the same holes in it that they had before so the tables can be screwed with and the DNS records modified again.  Got news, anything to do with published weaknesses in technology is typically dealt with before it ever goes to press.  IT networks which is what the Internet is built on ain't ham radio.  There are no old farts saying that we been doing it this way for ever so it's the only way to do it.  As security holes are found they are dealt with.  Anything that someone sits down and writes about is KNOWN.  And since it's known, it gets addressed LONG before the book leaves the publisher. 

As far as NVIS vs sloper vs beams.... yeah I know.  And I am not brute forcing anything.  100 watts is all I got and really don't need it for the most part. 

To the statement of 'trained' ham radio operators.. Figured you were talking about family members that were some distance away. 
If you are talking about contacting EMA's and other ARES types, you may well have someone there but propagation is still your enemy depending on where they are. 

And I still will say that your scenario of the Internet going down for weeks from a DNS or BGP hack is still not real viable.  Here's the problem.  If someone breaks it, you restore the configuration the first time and it's back up in a few hours.  If someone hacks it again you figure that part out and lock them out before you fix it the second time.  And you don't leave them the same hole they came through the first and second time.  Basic logic sort of applies here.  If you leave your front door unlocked and come home to find someone sitting at your kitchen table drinking your beer,  are you dumb enough to leave the door unlocked for them to come back tomorrow??  Most people have enough sense to NOT make that same mistake twice.   

Lastly, if you believe that your HOA or zoning inspector is NOT gonna come fine you for standing up an antenna in a restricted area because there is a disaster taking place, your nuts.  They may wait until after the fact, but they will come see you all the same.  And as mentioned before on this very forum by myself and others, the government officials are moving away from reliance on ham radio.  That includes allowing someone to violate zoning and deed restrictions or HOA rules.  You're obviously thinking they care that you are in your mind providing a valuable service.  They are NOT gonna see it that way.  It's the government, they don't operate on logic or reason,,, only on what will get them through the next popularity contest (election).
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 21, 2022, 08:59:51 AM
Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.

Quote
Oh, so you read some books on hacking the Internet and figure that no one that actually takes care of the DNS and routing tables ever has and they would just reload the same code with the same holes in it that they had before so the tables can be screwed with and the DNS records modified again.
Yes, I read.  Do you?  Here is some well known reality:  Hackers and attackers are quicker than defenses and fixers.  Especially if there is a gang of national or ideological sponsors behind them.

Quote
As far as NVIS vs sloper vs beams.... yeah I know.  And I am not brute forcing anything.  100 watts is all I got and really don't need it for the most part. 
 
Well then, you must have changed your approach since your earlier post when you said:
Quote
...look me up on QRZ.  It's 240 foot tall,, doubt you have one bigger than that, and I can't at will go grab the mike and talk to a specific state with consistency outside of what normal propagation will allow.  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.
With that degree of bloviating perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning.

Quote
To the statement of 'trained' ham radio operators.. Figured you were talking about family members that were some distance away. 
If you are talking about contacting EMA's and other ARES types, you may well have someone there but propagation is still your enemy depending on where they are. 
I never inferred propagation would ever approach perfection.

Quote
Lastly, if you believe that your HOA or zoning inspector is NOT gonna come fine you for standing up an antenna in a restricted area because there is a disaster taking place, your nuts.  They may wait until after the fact, but they will come see you all the same.  And as mentioned before on this very forum by myself and others, the government officials are moving away from reliance on ham radio.  That includes allowing someone to violate zoning and deed restrictions or HOA rules.  You're obviously thinking they care that you are in your mind providing a valuable service.  They are NOT gonna see it that way.  It's the government, they don't operate on logic or reason,,, only on what will get them through the next popularity contest (election).
That is certainly the pessimist's view.  But having been in local government for 40 years with a half dozen local and county agencies, I can attest that the great majority of agencies will totally ignore, write off, and forget any petty "violations" of that nature during and after a SHTF situation that causes that degree of communication outage.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: AC2EU on February 21, 2022, 09:09:54 AM
If that happens, just bend over and kiss your butt goodby!

Would you really want to be located? A least use a NVIS antenna if you MUST transmit!
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 21, 2022, 09:38:49 AM
At least use a NVIS antenna if you MUST transmit!
Our EmComm group will.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 22, 2022, 09:08:58 PM
Alright... I have to ask, since we are talking about trying to talk half way across the planet here...
Just what in the world do you think you need to tell someone in California, Texas, Mississippi, Florida or Washington state about YOUR situation in Maine, New York, or Delaware that you think they are really gonna care to hear about if the Internet is really down EVERYWHERE and no one can use their phone's or post on Facebook? 

I really am curious about what this situational piece of information is that you believe they are gonna give a hoot about you have to pass to them?
And lets take the Internet out of it.  Lets call this a general national emergency, YOU pick the disaster, and tell me WHAT they are gonna what to know or that YOUR supported agency is going to want to know about the situation on the other side of or middle of the country? 

Because anything that is going to be at THAT level of importance, the military will have passed through their HF nets and do you REALLY believe that what some HAM operator tells the powers that be at that level they are going to take at face value?  Some hammie running up to the guy in charge claiming the commies are invading ain't gonna be listened to because of the source without verification. 

You need to understand that there are data networks out there that are NOT part of the Internet.  They fully stand apart.  And you can't attack them from the Internet due to that reason.  Some of them include the day traders networks that run from Chicago to New York and other places.  Others can't be discussed due to security reasons.  But they are there linking the country together.  Everything from multiple microwave hops to LEO satellites that are totally divorced from the web. 
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W9FIB on February 23, 2022, 04:36:17 AM
Alright... I have to ask, since we are talking about trying to talk half way across the planet here...

Then why do stations in hard hit islands and small countries communicate outside their area?

Maybe pass news and disaster information outside the effected area.

Maybe to try to set up links with outside agencies to help provide supplies needed locally in the disaster area.

See the problem is most people in the USA seem to think EVERYONE has access to an infrastructure similar to that of large US cities. Rural areas in the US and many small countries do not. So they use ANY means to try to achieve some level of communication to get the help and supplies needed. Supplies may include equipment to get their broken infrastructure repaired so more conventional communications can be restored. And one of those means is to use HR.

So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: NN4RH on February 23, 2022, 08:03:37 AM

Actually in my experience, people in rural areas and small towns are much better set up for self-sufficiency, for longer, than people in cities. 

Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: NN4RH on February 23, 2022, 08:07:38 AM
Quote
So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.

So the next time we have an ice storm, the roads blocked by fallen trees, and the power out for several days, I'll just fire up the HF rig and ask some random ham in Poland or New Zealand to send supplies.   

Or maybe I should get on HF and "pass traffic" to Verizon (via Poland or New Zealand) to ask them to fix the internet so that I can call the power company to complain about the outage, and then order some bread, milk and toilet paper to be delivered via Instacart ?

.... or maybe it would make more sense to be prepared to be self-sufficient for long enough?
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: AC2EU on February 23, 2022, 08:19:56 AM
This is a very timely thread. Putin seems to be implying cyber attacks. Who knows? Maybe he can shut the whole thing down?

I don't have much faith that that the government has all of the holes plugged considering recent history:
Quote
https://www.zdnet.com/article/dod-disa-discloses-data-breach/


I am quite concerned about escalation if Russia does decide to launch such an attack. That would technically be an act of war!
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GMU on February 23, 2022, 10:42:57 AM
Our EmComm group just today set up an old NVIS antenna and made several good contacts.  One was 60 miles to the state capital, and another was 400 miles to Arkansas on 40 meters at 10am. No need to falsely believe HF is only good for thousands of miles.

That is good information for us learning how to cover these intermediate distances with HF.

And I repeat, it is not uncommon for foreign espionage and intelligence units to disable a nation's internet infrastructure for extended periods of rime.  We will continue to see this exercise unfold between Russia and Ukraine over the coming days and weeks.

Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W9FIB on February 23, 2022, 11:43:05 AM
Quote
So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.

So the next time we have an ice storm, the roads blocked by fallen trees, and the power out for several days, I'll just fire up the HF rig and ask some random ham in Poland or New Zealand to send supplies.   

Or maybe I should get on HF and "pass traffic" to Verizon (via Poland or New Zealand) to ask them to fix the internet so that I can call the power company to complain about the outage, and then order some bread, milk and toilet paper to be delivered via Instacart ?

.... or maybe it would make more sense to be prepared to be self-sufficient for long enough?

Rather snarky and does not match what I said. But that's ok...I will just consider the source. Rather naive and should be ridiculed greatly. Maybe even a laugh or two.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 23, 2022, 05:25:56 PM
So the next time we have an ice storm, the roads blocked by fallen trees, and the power out for several days, I'll just fire up the HF rig and ask some random ham in Poland or New Zealand to send supplies.   .... or maybe it would make more sense to be prepared to be self-sufficient for long enough?

Very cynical, Ron.  The simple fact is that in an emergency you use whatever you have - food, fuel and communications.  In the best cases, neighbors work together and share resources.  This is what we did in the East Coast blizzard of 1978.  For comms it was CB for local coordination (especially generator time and their gas supplies to run furnace oil burners and pumps) and HF for health and welfare messages that comforted a great many people inside and outside of the weather zone..

Since you live in North Carolina, which is nearly the storm damage capital of the USA, I'd think you've had some experience with that.

Total War is a different "emergency" - to paraphrase an old movie:  "... the only way to win is not to play..."  Too bad that's not universally understood.

Also - being "prepared" is relative - A weeks food, water and fuel is always a good idea.  But some people (and one of my ex-USAF friends) lives over a communications bunker he rebuilt and provisioned with a year's supplies, not to mention plenty of ammunition.

So ... How far have YOU gone?

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 23, 2022, 08:47:14 PM
Alright... I have to ask, since we are talking about trying to talk half way across the planet here...

Then why do stations in hard hit islands and small countries communicate outside their area?

Maybe pass news and disaster information outside the effected area.

Maybe to try to set up links with outside agencies to help provide supplies needed locally in the disaster area.

See the problem is most people in the USA seem to think EVERYONE has access to an infrastructure similar to that of large US cities. Rural areas in the US and many small countries do not. So they use ANY means to try to achieve some level of communication to get the help and supplies needed. Supplies may include equipment to get their broken infrastructure repaired so more conventional communications can be restored. And one of those means is to use HR.

So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.

OK, I will give you that smaller countries WOULD indeed need some of communications.  I don't argue that point.
BUT...
The OP on this thread specifically stated an Internet outage across the country.  And with his call sign being what it is, he's obviously in the USA.
So we are NOT talking about small countries.  We are talking about the US / North America.

The statement of getting information to other unaffected area's.... he SPECIFICALLY stated this is a country wide Internet outage.  No place he mentioned in the US would be unaffected.

Then we get back to WHO would we be communicating with.  Since EVERYWHERE in the US is affected, you then have other countries. 
Sorry, hate to burst your hammie self importance bubble BUT, I ain't about to take it upon myself to contact OTHER SOVEREIGN NATIONS to ask for assistance.  That is the governments place and responsibility, not some guy that took an 80 question test that he memorized the answers to from a book from Gorden West. 
You see this is like passing traffic.  And in this case, since this is the EMCOMM area of the forum, we will call it EMERGENCY traffic. 
DETAILS MATTER.
SO since details matter, I will ask again.  WHAT DO YOU THINK IS SO IMPORTANT that you need to communicate to others in an EQUALLY EFFECTED area of a disaster like a country wide Internet outage that they are gonna give a rip about?  Because NOTHING at our level is of that importance level and even if you are passing traffic for a local government or state official, the other end of this conversation will be no doubt be taken under advisement and quickly dismissed due to it's actual lack of importance on the other end. 

There are some of us that lived through the 70's and even before that.  And there WAS NO INTERNET.  At least not what we have now. 
Back in those days it was ARPANET and the X.25 connections that tied big universities together. And can you believe it,, we survived without it.  You know the DARK AGES.  Before the enlightenment of Twitter, Instagram and even AOL.    But now we have wondrous thing like Internet forums about ham radio where we can get on the web and say dumb stuff. 

So HOW do you actually deal with it. 
Easy,,, well, relatively easy.   You find a big tower.  You build out a huge ARDEN network that connects 5 counties.  You build a back end of web services including messaging, email, video chat and a VoIP phone system.  You put in a big generator, battery plant, solar and wild power to feed the battery plant and figure that hardly NO ONE will bother to use it because it's not got a microphone and isn't on HF.  And that's not technically true either, because the WINLINK node is connected to HF packet to pass email. 
 
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W9FIB on February 24, 2022, 04:51:52 AM
The statement of getting information to other unaffected area's.... he SPECIFICALLY stated this is a country wide Internet outage.  No place he mentioned in the US would be unaffected.

As I stated before, in this thread, there is too much redundant infrastructure for the entire US internet to be down all at once. My comment was based on a question posed in a different part of the thread. The answer was geared to that question which I quoted.

My area is served by 1 fiber optic cable and extremely aged twisted pair. Cut the fiber optic cable and we have no communications without RF. Unless; you can find someone remotely with an old phone modem and who knows how to use it, without the benefit of communications. And I am in the US. Look it up if you don't believe me.

At least we will be getting solar electric farm in our county soon. At least during the day, we will have power locally if the grid goes down. Don't know how much storage capacity they will have, so I limited my comment to when there is sun light even if filtered by clouds. Again a comment based on other comments in this thread.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: AC2EU on February 24, 2022, 09:51:41 AM
Lets see what happens after the Russian sanctions are enforced (if they enforce them).
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 24, 2022, 06:47:17 PM
Lets see what happens after the Russian sanctions are enforced (if they enforce them).

The value of the Ruble has been dropping vs. the Dollar since the start of this affair,  The pain has already started.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 24, 2022, 08:23:47 PM
The statement of getting information to other unaffected area's.... he SPECIFICALLY stated this is a country wide Internet outage.  No place he mentioned in the US would be unaffected.

As I stated before, in this thread, there is too much redundant infrastructure for the entire US internet to be down all at once. My comment was based on a question posed in a different part of the thread. The answer was geared to that question which I quoted.

My area is served by 1 fiber optic cable and extremely aged twisted pair. Cut the fiber optic cable and we have no communications without RF. Unless; you can find someone remotely with an old phone modem and who knows how to use it, without the benefit of communications. And I am in the US. Look it up if you don't believe me.

At least we will be getting solar electric farm in our county soon. At least during the day, we will have power locally if the grid goes down. Don't know how much storage capacity they will have, so I limited my comment to when there is sun light even if filtered by clouds. Again a comment based on other comments in this thread.

And with that situation you WILL have stuff to communicate.  I can see large chunks of the country being down for some reason or another.  We saw that with the bombing of the AT&T facility last year.  We saw it gain on Superbowl Sunday in Ohio and other states with some outage that took down phones, Internet and cable TV for a large number of folks.  With a situation like that communications outside the effected area will be important.  And we SHOULD be ready to provide assistance if something like that happens. 

My issue is this.  We need to look at out planning and preparedness based on what is actually possible, and if those things happen how we can as ham operators assist in those situations.   Part of that planning is figuring out what and how we WILL be called on to communicate.  When you go down the path of silly situations that either can't reasonably happen like a hurricane in Montana, it becomes a waste of time.  And with his scenario, the "what are we going to need to communicate and to who" becomes important.  The first part of who before we discuss what.  NVIS operations on HF for surrounding counties is going to be important.  Because those are people that are close enough to assist with supplies and situational awareness.  When you are trying to talk to someone 6 states away, none of that applies.  They are not going to be of any reasonable assistance and the situational awareness will be about pointless other than MAYBE weather fronts that are moving towards you.  Other than that... it's kind of pointless.  And at the point you are even discussing that sort of scenario, it's not being prepared,, it's wasting efforts and resources that could be put to better planning for an actual threat.  And if you have any actual training in disaster preparedness you KNOW this.  And if you are STILL trying to plan a solution for a problem there is no solution for, you are again a solution looking for a problem that can't ever really exist.  Which makes ham radio operators look dumb as a whole.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: WO7R on February 24, 2022, 08:35:25 PM
Quote
Hacking is a much more likely cause than EMP. It happens nearly daily on a corporate or local basis. A foreign entity that wants to put us in our place may have means, motive and opportunity.  The technology is there.

Hacking, especially by nation states, is a serious matter.

However, their ability to take down "the internet" as a whole is laughable.

A lot of attacks are indistinguishable from things that are not attacks.

There is no "the" internet.  The internet is an interlocking collective.  Not a government run one, but a collective none the less.  There's no "head of the snake" to cut off, accordingly.

There are some backbones that, if taken down, could cause real trouble.  Back in maybe the '70s, it could have taken out the internet as a whole.

But, not in 2022.  Without a lot of advance planning the sheer demand for nearly infinite capacity and the nearly infinite directionality has caused a large, robust network to be built.  Absent EMP then not even the (very talented) nation-state cyber warriors could take down the whole internet.

If they could do so, they already would have.  In fact, it would have happened sometime this very week.

The most serious recent stuff is "ransomware" against critical infrastructure.  That's nasty stuff and we should fix it, company by company. 

But that is still orders of magnitude removed from taking down "the internet" in the United States.  We're talking thousands if not millions of computers and the networks that support them.

Moreover, the internet infrastructure, such as the backbones, have been targets of every damn attack that was remotely relevant to them for decades now.  Perhaps DNS services might still be attacked successfully.  They are a comparatively weak point.  But, to date, nobody has taken that service down nation-wide.  Not once.  Damn near every Fortune 500 company has had a serious incident.  But the general internet?  It tends overall to treat attacks as damage and route around them.  In a lot of cases, it takes no special code.  It might not even take any configuration adjustments.

Maybe someone will eventually figure out how to take it all down.  But, it's hard because, as a collective, there is not only no central "head of the snake", there isn't even a common operating system nor are the code levels all the same.  In fact, an interesting aspect of the internet is that you have to deal with someone else's infrastructure, routinely, that's 20 years out of date and then turn around and deal with the beta code from someone else.  Within milliseconds.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W9FIB on February 25, 2022, 04:37:56 AM
And with that situation you WILL have stuff to communicate.  I can see large chunks of the country being down for some reason or another.  We saw that with the bombing of the AT&T facility last year.  We saw it gain on Superbowl Sunday in Ohio and other states with some outage that took down phones, Internet and cable TV for a large number of folks.  With a situation like that communications outside the effected area will be important.  And we SHOULD be ready to provide assistance if something like that happens. 

Right. So I will continue to work with our local ARES group and with local emergency government and local law enforcement to plan for and to supply any needed support, equipment, time, effort, and even a cup of coffee.

Like you said..."And we SHOULD be ready to provide assistance if something like that happens."
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: WA3SKN on February 25, 2022, 10:15:03 AM
In a FULL emergency you can expect...
Land line phones will be down.
Cell phones will be down.
The internet will be down.
You will have no power.

So what are you planning to do?  I would start with power! How much do you need?  How long do you need it?

-Mike.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: AC7CW on February 25, 2022, 10:29:27 AM
I'm thinking a mobile 100 watt rig with a mobile antenna and a vertical antenna on the house or barn roof with coax connections such that can go to the mobile rig... A yage might not be rotatable in a power out situation. Rig Power won't be a problem so long as your vehicle runs. My vehicle of choice would be a 1970's International Travelall: No electronics, absolute tank-like build, can put 250 gallon container of propane in the back and convert the motor to run on it[my father in law had exactly that, put 400,000 miles on it]. That and a satphone should do it...
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on February 25, 2022, 05:43:10 PM
In a FULL emergency you can expect...
Land line phones will be down.
Cell phones will be down.
The internet will be down.
You will have no power.

So what are you planning to do?  I would start with power! How much do you need?  How long do you need it?

-Mike.

Said this earlier in the thread.

So HOW do you actually deal with it.
Easy,,, well, relatively easy.   You find a big tower.  You build out a huge ARDEN network that connects 5 counties.  You build a back end of web services including messaging, email, video chat and a VoIP phone system.  You put in a big generator, battery plant, solar and wild power to feed the battery plant and figure that hardly NO ONE will bother to use it because it's not got a microphone and isn't on HF.  And that's not technically true either, because the WINLINK node is connected to HF packet to pass email. 


Go look up my call on QRZ.  There are pictures of the tower. 
Tower hosts public safety tenants and ham stuff, so what is spelled out in the earlier reply exists.  Still finalizing the generator and the solar and wind stuff will be going up in the spring.  Charging the batteries with charger / power supplies right now.  Have a 12 and a 24 volt battery plant.  Getting ready to build out the 48 volt plant.  Once the 48 volt plant is in place the 12 and 24 volt systems will be reconfigured to add capacity to the 48 volt plant and I will be running buck converters to drop the 48 to 12 and 24 for the gear that needs those voltages.  The racks of radios in the photos of the site are all on the 12 volt plant as are the MTR and Quantar repeaters.  The solar will be tied to the 48 system as well.  It will also have a grid powered 300 amp rectifier system tied to it.  But the ARDEN system is also up and running and does connect to other ARDEN nodes across 5 counties in central Ohio.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KC3TEC on November 06, 2022, 01:10:38 PM
Metal ammo cans placed on concrete or a grounded bench can shield your emergency radios from emp and moisture both.
Many semiconductors can also be stored in metal canistors inside an ammo box
Very good faraday cage protection..and lastly, the simpler a transceiver is the easier it is to repair and get on the air should it endure an emp pulse.

However the establishment of a sufficient network amateurs prepared in the same manner is important to vital communications.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KB8VUL on November 06, 2022, 08:37:30 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

Maybe someone should go read this and get some better understanding of the mechanics of an EMP befoer cramming all their radios in a ammo box or similar act to deal with the possibility of an EMP. 
Short version is HF radios that have large wire antenna's attached will suffer the greatest damage.  But simple surge suppressors will do a lot to protect that gear.  A radio on a shelf being effected by an EMP would require a distance to the point of the blast close enough that the radio being damaged is probably the least of your worries. 
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KC3TEC on November 10, 2022, 04:58:32 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_electromagnetic_pulse

Maybe someone should go read this and get some better understanding of the mechanics of an EMP befoer cramming all their radios in a ammo box or similar act to deal with the possibility of an EMP. 
Short version is HF radios that have large wire antenna's attached will suffer the greatest damage.  But simple surge suppressors will do a lot to protect that gear.  A radio on a shelf being effected by an EMP would require a distance to the point of the blast close enough that the radio being damaged is probably the least of your worries.

That is IF the antenna is attached.
Storing them in a grounded metal box  such as an ammo can , grounded metal clad fire safe is placing it in a farraday cage.
Typicall an emp will not permanently disable electronics, but only as long as the pulse lasts.
An emp bomb if its close enough to cause permanent damage to electronics will most likely be from the explosive instead of the emp pulse.
And if you happen to be that close your not going to be able to use the radio or the internet.
Radios damaged from emp? Not so much.
Computerized communications hardware wise again not so much.
But operations will be affected for a time until everything is reset.
And anyone who has restarted a computer( especially win hosed 10) knows it can take some time.
Its during that time frame that alternate destruction is possible from different sources.

Rural areas may be prepared for longer term than cities because its common to stock up on supplies rather than make multiple or daily trips to a market.
Communication wise however may only have one source ( land line phone)
Cell phone coverage is not a universal blanket.
So what else do they have to rely on?

If they happen to have amatuer radio
They do at least have a backup means to call for help if the phone system is out.

Not every disaster is about a nuclear emp.
There are many forms to consider.
Flooding, earthquake, forest fires, rolling blackouts, blizzards these are just natural ones that can affect communications networks.
Sabotage either physical or electronic can to varying degrees happen can also disrupt it.

The odds of the entire internet going down! Astronomically high.
Taking it out in a typical zone of a few towns.not so high.
Ive seen a tornado take out power and communications in a distance covering 3 neighboring towns.
So yes ham radios, frs, and cbs were all we had for a week.

You can be a skeptic all you want but until you've had to rely on something other than cellphones.
You wont know how good it is to have an alternate resource.
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: KK4GGL on November 15, 2022, 12:45:36 PM


What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

Boefungs don’t like EMP.

What's a Boefung?
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: ONAIR on December 03, 2022, 05:21:09 PM
CB radios!  At least you can hit the truckers as they go by!  ;)
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K5YDD on December 03, 2022, 05:44:46 PM
Packet radio on HF.  It worked well, worldwide, in the 80's and 90's. 
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: W7ASA on February 03, 2023, 05:32:12 PM
When this conversation comes up, first let's define what we need to communicate and with whom?

1. If I communicate with the ham friends I already have skeds with; nothing changes.  Turn the radio ON at sked time and start communicating.  Of course, if my friends and distant relatives are outside of the impacted area, the radio ops I have skeds with can call my family & friends outside the area, they can relay messages for and from my family. There are times when a 25 word Radiogram is worth it's weight in gold. Morse code works extremely well for my needs.

2. If I want to pass a health and welfare message to friends and family outside of the impacted area (BT&DT) I can use WINLINK.  Another gem is The National Traffic System/RRI using nothing more than Morse , paper and pencil with my QRP rig.
3.  The first thing I want to know is: 'what is the actual 'impacted area?'  Is it my block, my county, my State, half way to Nebraska?  That's all information I have generally gleaned from RADIO during past interruptions. Future trends, weather forecasts, storm centers & tracks etc. Plan and act accordingly.

4.  I have zero personal need to send a 5 MB PowerPoint presentation to some government entity.  YMMV


de Ray  ..._ ._
Title: Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
Post by: K6BRN on February 04, 2023, 10:05:42 AM
Any reason why you couldn't just use a satellite phone or terminal?  Iridium. Inmarsat, Starlink, Thuraya ... (there are quite a few).  Very popular among boaters.  But costs $$$.

Unless this is an "end of the world" scenario, where aliens or hostile nations have blown up the satellite infrastructure, too.