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eHam Forums => Satellites => Topic started by: NS2X on February 13, 2022, 10:52:00 AM

Title: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: NS2X on February 13, 2022, 10:52:00 AM
Where did the advancement in Ham Radio development go?  I have a TS-2000 that worked great until lightening happened.  Wasn't connected to an antenna but the HF front end was taken out, via the power line I guess.  VHF/UHF still works. 

The TS-2000 has full HF, VHF, UHF coverage with CW, SSB, FM and full cross-band duplex, with a special Satellite operation mode, at 100 watts.  There was also the Yaesu FT-847.  It also had full band coverage, and full duplex.  Now, it appears, we need to purchase multiple radios, or go QRP to get one, that might have it all, espically full duplex, and I do not see any of those around now. Yes the Icom-7900 is out there, but no HF and at a $1700 price tag.

What are your thoughts and/or opinions? 

73.. Greg .. NS2X ..  see you on the birds....
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: K7LZR on February 13, 2022, 11:03:05 AM
As with many facets of ham radio, satellite enthusiasts are a small niche. Perhaps not enough market to attract modern commercial designs?. But I think that when SDR technology really becomes dominant, things may change because it is much easier to produce a full-duplex radio with an SDR architecture than it is with traditional analog superhet technologies....   
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: KF4HR on February 13, 2022, 11:45:58 AM
The reason you probably don't see too many all-in-one rigs with Sat capability is there's not a high demand for them because they present a cost/performance compromise.  It's a safe bet that many hams prefer to have separate HF and VHF/UHF rigs in order to optimize performance and features.  If you prefer all-in-one rigs  TS-2000's and ICOM IC-9100's occasionally pop up for sale.   
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: AF5CC on February 13, 2022, 02:33:36 PM
I think you can get a some models of the Flex radios with VHF and UHF modules and they will do HF plus full duplex on the satellite bands.  Not the easiest to take roving, though.

73 John AF5CC
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: W1VT on February 13, 2022, 03:18:40 PM
The IC-9700 is the advancement in satellite radios.

Why not more?  My opinion is the shortage of exciting new satellites to use by hams in either Japan or the United States.
The geostationary bird is nice, but not exciting for hams living outside its footprint.
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: N4UFO on February 14, 2022, 01:37:45 PM
I wondered this about 222 Mhz radios some years back and made some inquiries... was told that 222 Mhz doesn't exists outside NA (maybe one other place) and the cost of design, getting FCC (and other countries) type acceptance, marketing, etc. was basically cost prohibitive.

I am sure it's the same... simply put, they have to think they are going to sell enough of the rigs to make it profitable. Has to be enough interest in sats, VHF/UHF weak signal, EME, etc. to justify the expense of creating & marketing the radio. Otherwise... we keep buying used rigs. WHICH is what a lot of hams do anyway and why they can't make enough. I know I went after an FT-847 when I got sat serious... But now? I certainly can't recommend an 847 because some of the parts that have a tendency to crap out are unobtanium. (power switch, some controls, etc.)
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: VE3WGO on April 21, 2022, 07:15:33 AM
I posted this in the VHF / UHF section, so it is a duplicate, but interesting to Satellites too...

Icom is going to demo a new Super High Frequency "design concept" at Dayton, for the 2.4 and 5.6 GHz bands.   https://www.icomjapan.com/lp/shf/

If this makes it to product, it could spur more interest in those bands.  Might even be adaptable (with an X-band converter) to use on the QO-100 satellite, as well as Amsat-NA's future 5.6 GHz up and 10 GHz down "Five and Dime" part of the new Golf project....  https://www.amsat.org/greater-orbit-larger-footprint-an-introduction-to-the-amsat-golf-program/

73, Ed
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: KD7RDZI2 on April 23, 2022, 12:46:53 PM
Where did the advancement in Ham Radio development go?  I have a TS-2000 that worked great until lightening happened.  Wasn't connected to an antenna but the HF front end was taken out, via the power line I guess.  VHF/UHF still works. 

The TS-2000 has full HF, VHF, UHF coverage with CW, SSB, FM and full cross-band duplex, with a special Satellite operation mode, at 100 watts.  There was also the Yaesu FT-847.  It also had full band coverage, and full duplex.  Now, it appears, we need to purchase multiple radios, or go QRP to get one, that might have it all, espically full duplex, and I do not see any of those around now. Yes the Icom-7900 is out there, but no HF and at a $1700 price tag.

What are your thoughts and/or opinions? 

73.. Greg .. NS2X ..  see you on the birds....

I would just to send the damaged transceiver for repair or buy another TS2000 and use the old TS2000 for spare parts. There may be transceivers made for satellite operation but for low orbits sats you can try just any low power ssb 70cm transceiver and any 144 ssb receiver (even a 10$ TV dongle may suffice) with a diplexer for full duplex and manual operation.
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: N0JY on May 02, 2022, 12:32:35 PM
If this makes it to product, it could spur more interest in those bands.  Might even be adaptable (with an X-band converter) to use on the QO-100 satellite, as well as Amsat-NA's future 5.6 GHz up and 10 GHz down "Five and Dime" part of the new Golf project....  https://www.amsat.org/greater-orbit-larger-footprint-an-introduction-to-the-amsat-golf-program/

Hi Ed,
Thanks for the post, the project will be interesting to follow and see at Hamvention.  I also appreciate your mention of Five and Dime and GOLF, it is the first I have seen in discussion outside AMSAT and it is good to see it part of the discussion.  (I don't have much internet/social media time, so I could easily be missing other F&D discussion.)

The microwave bands are the place to go and grow, for several mechanical and RF reasons.  GOLF-TEE will be capable of Five and Dime type of operation, but it is not yet planned into the frequency coordination.  GOLF-1 is certainly expected to provide that mode of operation.

GOLF-TEE is the testing/qualifying run for an attitude control system and deployable solar panel wings, as well as SDR.  Those are goals stated in the NASA CSLI proposal as well.  When we complete the testing of those three items, if our orbit allows for a good angle of the solar panel so that enough power is available for increased SDR functions I would certainly want to experiment with it.  The GOLF-TEE antennas have a broad beamwidth in order to account for inaccurate pointing whether ADCS issues or other causes, and to help with Doppler frequency shift as GOLF-TEE zooms by in a LEO pass.  So operation is still TBD, as we move toward launch.

Our plan and expectation is to put Five and Dime to work on GOLF from the start (give or take -TEE) in order that it be there to give hams an opportunity to get their feet wet if they are new to microwave, and let everyone test and experiment no matter their level of microwave savvy and experience.  Taking the experimental (per CSLI) X band downlink we can provide a V/x mode along with the base V/u operating mode, allowing users to experiment with X band receive.  For example, using your existing VHF/UHF satellite UHF downlink to provide confirmation of transponder use and signal quality while you tweak your X receive capability toward that target and making V/x mode QSOs.

You probably know of the setbacks that have occurred due to the missed delivery of the original ADCS we planned to fly and the death of Bob Davis our mechanical engineer, both occurring just before the end of last year.
This one-two hit necessitated a delay to the original delivery date we had been pursuing for GOLF-TEE, so we're now looking at NLT January 2025 delivery as the target we gave launch providers.  We expect to move that to the left as we attract mechanical engineering volunteers and get Engineering up to speed and back on track.  We also need time to find an ADCS which may require revising the bus/spaceframe design to accommodate the new system, and of course ADCS availability and delivery times are impacted by the current/ongoing supply chain woes - as goes (seemingly) the rest of everything needed to make a satellite nowadays.
Just relating a little update for all who read this.  We are still working hard to get GOLF-TEE in orbit as soon as we can.

I find the Icom project interesting.  (Leaving the tech stuff discussion to the other forum.)  If it is also a draw and/or useful piece of equipment in bringing more hams to satellite and microwave (and GOLF) that is most excellent!  Interest and support of more satellites (with microwave) is good for everyone.

73,
Jerry N0JY
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: WA3SKN on July 11, 2022, 04:21:28 PM
There are plenty of radios out there, or you can build your own!
Gotta budget??? What do you want it to do?

-Mike.

Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: N4UFO on July 11, 2022, 09:18:46 PM
There are plenty of radios out there, or you can build your own!
Gotta budget??? What do you want it to do?

-Mike.

Full duplex, VHF/UHF, all mode, and wait for it <drum roll> band tracking! That is... when you adjust one band, it adjusts the other in an equal and opposite amount to line your TX and RX up with the satellite passband. Easier said than done. And while I have built my own radios (Heathkit, Ten Tec T-kit, etc.) that's beyond me.

To the OPs point & for your benefit (old thread - don't know if you are a satellite op) satellite is a niche with most radios designed for it being 20+ years old. The FT-847 is very long in the tooth and a number of parts that are known to go bad are no longer available. The TS-2000 is no longer in production. The Icom 820/821 is fairly old as well. There is basically one Icom rig or buy a pair of 817/818 radios and either do some knob spinning with both hands or go computer control. (manual guy myself) I was going to hook up computer control, but before I could get the software going a nearby lightning hit zapped all the serial ports... radio, PC, rotor control. Wonder if that is what happened to OPs TS-2000. When I was a computer tech, replaced a LOT of PCs that had lightning come in through serial control lines.

Anyway, after working all 488 CONUS grids, I sold off my AZ-EL rotor system and antennas, donated my rig to a university club and moved cross country. With a whole lot of trees & mountains around my new QTH, I doubt I will do much from home any more, so a pair of FT-817s for roving it is. I also purchased a full duplex FM rig for a reasonable price and may go that route a bit... that and mount an antenna on a tripod. You know, lazy ops.  :D  But I do see some 820/821s now and again and makes me look twice. Hopefully, the 817s will be enough for the SSB/CW birds and the V71A will do nicely on FM... should be easier at least.

73, Kevin N4UFO

P.S. Sorry for going on... splurged and had to iced tea tonight; normally not supposed to imbibe caffeine.  :P ;) :D
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: VE3WGO on July 13, 2022, 09:52:02 AM
The Icom IC-9700 sure looks inviting.  In my early VHF days, 6 and 2 meters were kind of the interesting pair, but these days transceiver manufacturers have included 6 down in the HF range.  My old Kenwood TS-2000X HF/VHF/UHF/Satellite radio is about 20+ years old now, and the HF PA driver has been repaired once, but now it has developed that dreaded intermittent IF filter noise problem, probably due to humidity.

I also have an even older beautiful Ten-Tec Paragon with the PLL PCB lock problem that I have resoldered a couple of times, along with a 2510 Satellite Transverter for Mode B sats.  I should fire it up for fun, to see if it all still works.

But as N4UFO (gotta love that callsign as a satellite operator!) says, manual tracking on the linear sats can be tricky, but the 2510 does it automatically for inverting sats.  Are most mode B sats inverting?

73, Ed
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: AF5CC on July 15, 2022, 08:14:20 AM
All of the linear satellites right now are inverting, except for AO7 when it is in Mode A.  When it is in Mode B it is in inverting fashion.  All of the other Model B satellites are inverting as well.  Right now the active Mode B satellites are CAS4A, CAS4B, XW2A, XW2C, JO97, EO88, AO7, and TO108.  EO88 is only on in darkness and AO7 is only on in sunlight.

73 John AF5CC
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: W4HIJ on August 01, 2022, 11:29:49 AM
No one is going to invest money in developing new sat rigs anymore until AMSAT NA (and others) prove they can put up viable satellites again and even then it would be a cottage industry.
BTW, with the way AMSAT NA has gone the last few years, I wouldn't hold my breath.
73,
W4HIJ
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: KD7RDZI2 on August 07, 2022, 01:29:34 PM
No one is going to invest money in developing new sat rigs anymore until AMSAT NA (and others) prove they can put up viable satellites again and even then it would be a cottage industry.
BTW, with the way AMSAT NA has gone the last few years, I wouldn't hold my breath.
73,
W4HIJ5
Longlife to AO7... why not putting up viable satellites that work only in sunlight? They would cost less and last more... much more ;D
Title: Re: Satellite Transceiver Advancement?
Post by: AI5BC on August 08, 2022, 08:09:54 AM
No market and no interest period. Satellite communications is BROADBAND technology for highspeed communications. Who in the world would want to spend that kind of money for outdated archaic narrowband technology no one uses anymore.