eHam
eHam Forums => Emergency Communications => Topic started by: KG7LEA on June 23, 2022, 09:16:54 AM
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It has been some years since the subject of mutual aid in the event of a disaster has been discussed here. I have been investigating the plans by various volunteer communications groups, ARES, ACS, etc., for deploying operators out of their home areas. I have seen some impressive plans for recruiting, organizing, equipping, and training volunteers who can be sent as teams to requesting communities to fill gaps after a communications emergency. Although it is less and less likely that public service systems will fail, there are likely to be additional needs for communications such as between shelters and feeding centers and other NGOs. ARRL/ARES has floated a concept of Mutual Aid Teams, but this does not seem to have gotten past a proposal. But one size does not fit all so it is difficult to establish a national structure for mutual aid. State emergency managers rely on the Interstate Mutual Aid Compact to request and provide additional resources including volunteer communicators.
It occurs to me that rather than building up teams which, when deployed, only get broken up by the served agencies, why not plan to receive individual volunteers such as is done with public service events. When a marathon or back-country run comes up, the word goes out and the organizers put together a plan. Year to year these plans are recycled with new people. The same can be done, to the extent possible with a draft activation plan by an ARES or RACES group.
There could be a template where a served agency can put out the word and qualified volunteers show up. It would be up to the served agency to vet volunteers rather than an outside agency, to receive the volunteers, assign and manage them, provide accountability, and plan for demobilization. It should also be up to the served agency to provide logistical support for the volunteers. This business of "be self sufficient for three days" is laudable, but will exclude much qualified talent. Three days is basically a pickup load. The served agencies should do better than that.
It may not be necessary for each volunteer to provide a full VHF/UHF/HF station. There is usually plenty of equipment. I find it laughable when I go to an event each ham sets up his or her own station right next to another fully functional station or two.
Have any groups made plans to receive individual volunteers?
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers. Ham radio is essentially a hobby and can often hinder rather than help, require more oversight and supervision than it’s worth and isn’t dependable when and if actually needed.
I understand new hams enter the hobby with a sense that EMCON is real. The marketing is effective albeit misleading.
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Its not what the Gov. agencys want.
-Mike.
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Its not what the Gov. agencys want.
What about NGOs? Neighborhood CERT teams? ARES is organized to support them too.
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Its not what the Gov. agencys want.
What about NGOs? Neighborhood CERT teams? ARES is organized to support them too.
Typical of most if not all CERTs, ours communicates directly with the local EMS. Completely unrelated to anything ham radio.
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers.
Try asserting that at a volunteer fire station.
Its not what the Gov. agencys want. [sic]
Sure they do. I have personally been involved in MOUs, drills, and station installations with County Emergency Government EOCs, hospitals, Sheriff departments, police departments, Red Cross and airports.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers.
Try asserting that at a volunteer fire station.
They know and trust each other. That trust is usually earned, not assumed by donning a yellow vest with some obscure label stuck on it.
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers.
Try asserting that at a volunteer fire station.
They know and trust each other. That trust is usually earned, not assumed by donning a yellow vest with some obscure label stuck on it.
Sure and that is why we drill with the served agencies and they credential us as needed per their EOP. Yet we are volunteers but still highly valued and respected even with our requisite personal protective equipment.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers.
Try asserting that at a volunteer fire station.
They know and trust each other. That trust is usually earned, not assumed by donning a yellow vest with some obscure label stuck on it.
Sure and that is why we drill with the served agencies and they credential us as needed per their EOP. Yet we are volunteers but still highly valued and respected even with our requisite personal protective equipment.
- Glenn W9IQ
We are discussing outside volunteers:
“It occurs to me that rather than building up teams which, when deployed, only get broken up by the served agencies, why not plan to receive individual volunteers…”
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers.
Try asserting that at a volunteer fire station.
They know and trust each other. That trust is usually earned, not assumed by donning a yellow vest with some obscure label stuck on it.
Sure and that is why we drill with the served agencies and they credential us as needed per their EOP. Yet we are volunteers but still highly valued and respected even with our requisite personal protective equipment.
- Glenn W9IQ
We are discussing outside volunteers:
“It occurs to me that rather than building up teams which, when deployed, only get broken up by the served agencies, why not plan to receive individual volunteers…”
That is generally where NIMS training and certification applies. This is the same structure that allows other "outside" agencies to interoperate. NIMS certification is required for all ARES leaders, for example.
Do you have any NIMS certificates? Do you even know under what part of the ICS command structure the amateur radio operators would typically serve? You can at least Google the latter.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Begin quote
Do you have any NIMS certificates? Do you even know under what part of the ICS command structure the amateur radio operators would typically serve? You can at least Google the latter.
- Glenn W9IQ
This would be a requirement imposed by the receiving agency. The callout would include that in addition to license level and equipment.
For example, and existing group is supporting CERTs and shelters rather than the local EM agency. The operators are stretched thin. They only need a few more radios, they need more operators.
I am suggesting that the planning be directed to that end vs. shipping a team in that will get broken up.
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I find that in a real emergency, the agency is best served if they can count on the volunteers to do anything. Playing radio is only 1 small part of what is usually needed. However, if back up communications are needed, there is the capability to handle it if properly trained in federal, state, and local procedures. However, the need may include doing something else.
A true volunteer is one willing to help those who need help. Stepping up to the plate and doing what is needed, and not grumbling or refusing because you think it is below your status in some self-perceived form of elitism.
The comment of fire departments needing to know each other to work together is also incorrect. As a 25-year volunteer fireman, when you have a big fire beyond what your department can handle, you call in departments from surrounding communities. Do you know them? Not really, just as they don't know you. Yet we have a mutual respect for each other's capabilities. And quickly form a bond to fight the fire and not worry if I know the person's name or not.
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Comparing volunteer firemen/people to EMCOM is apples and oranges. As a volunteer firefighter just a few years back, I don't remember any volunteer firefighters
showing up with a belt full of cheap Chinese radios and cell phones. I was issued a radio from the department I served. EMCOM on the other hand thrives on
whackers. the ARRL has done a great job of selling EMCOM as the gateway to amateur radio.
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The comment of fire departments needing to know each other to work together is also incorrect. As a 25-year volunteer fireman, when you have a big fire beyond what your department can handle, you call in departments from surrounding communities. Do you know them? Not really, just as they don't know you. Yet we have a mutual respect for each other's capabilities. And quickly form a bond to fight the fire and not worry if I know the person's name or not.
In such responses are the firefighters deployed as teams or broken up and distributed as needed? Do they arrive as teams?
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Do you have any NIMS certificates? Do you even know under what part of the ICS command structure the amateur radio operators would typically serve? You can at least Google the latter.
- Glenn W9IQ
As I know. As I clearly stated, my professional background includes experience in emergency response. I was part of the team which developed the ICS. Try being less condescending and understand what I wrote.
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The comment of fire departments needing to know each other to work together is also incorrect. As a 25-year volunteer fireman, when you have a big fire beyond what your department can handle, you call in departments from surrounding communities. Do you know them? Not really, just as they don't know you. Yet we have a mutual respect for each other's capabilities. And quickly form a bond to fight the fire and not worry if I know the person's name or not.
In such responses are the firefighters deployed as teams or broken up and distributed as needed? Do they arrive as teams?
They deploy men and equipment requested by incident command. Once on scene, the incident command assigns them as needed. In a rural setting like I am in, most department volunteers are cross trained to do any task required. There are few actual teams in a rural department. And the major reason for that is when the alarm sounds, you don't know who is going to show up. So, you respond with who is there. This emphasizes the need for cross training and able to be deployed in any position. A 2.5" hose with a straight nozzle and charged to 50 PSI takes about 3 good men to control. And at a big fire you many have many lines run all needing manning. So, you will probably never have the same group of 3 at any given fire.
Daytime fires are usually the worst as so many are at work during the day. And being rural, the commutes are generally a lot longer than in a city. I myself travel 27 miles one way to get to my office. Plus, with the lack of volunteerism sweeping America, the ranks keep getting thinner. And that is the reason I say if you volunteer in a disaster, be prepared to do anything. Cause that will maximize your worth. Just playing radio minimizes your worth.
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I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's. They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.
If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out. WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters. And that's what they do.
If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services. And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.
If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios. Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges. NO.
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Obama spent billions so that hams would not be necessary in emergencies afaik. I'm thinking that hams should specialize in health and welfare messaging... can't we send emails via radio? We could then fill in otherwise as needed.
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Obama spent billions so that hams would not be necessary in emergencies afaik. I'm thinking that hams should specialize in health and welfare messaging... can't we send emails via radio? We could then fill in otherwise as needed.
Exactly, we need to reinvent what we are doing to support communications during a disaster. MESH networking, providing the displaced a way to communicate to family they are safe and where they are. But we need to get away from the idea that we somehow are going to be handling public safety communications. I still hear guys that are 100% convinced that they are gonna be riding shotgun in firetrucks and police cars when their radio systems fail. And that's just NOT gonna happen. I actually defy ANYONE to come forward and say they did that in the last 20 years anywhere in the USA where it was actually requested and they were out passing actual public safety dispatch traffic while riding around in a cop car or fire truck. And yes, links to news stories about it are required as proof. The reason I know it never happened is people would STILL be talking about how they did that and 'saved the day'. Even twenty years later.
The statements of needing to be willing to do whatever at a shelter, like pour coffee is true. If that's what they need it's gonna be ask of you. Because they have their comm's covered. Either provide something they don't have covered or leave your radios at home and go pour coffee and setup cots.
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In San Diego County, CA, the assigned mission of ARES is to support the county hospital system with back-up communications, including WinLink. ARES has been doing these drills for a number of years, to the point where the hospitals actually request our participation. Just this past Thursday, there was a county-wide hospital drill, with the scenario being a major earthquake in the region. This is the first we have participated in since the beginning of the pandemic. San Diego ARES placed operators in 14 hospitals, the County medical Operations Center and had three home-based net control operators. This included the Naval Medical Center San Diego (Balboa) and in the past the Navy Hospital Ship USNS Mercy has participated when she's in port.
All of our operators have ICS/NIMS training and have Task Book sign-off requirements. No operator is randomly assigned to a location and inexperienced operators are always placed with an experienced individual. All operators are required to undergo a background investigation by the county and are issued Disaster Service Worker ID cards upon completion of the investigation.
In addition to the above, ARES puts "boots on the ground" at the annual Marine Corps Air Station Miramar air show. Our assignment is to be additional eyes and ears in the massive crowds that attend the three days of the air show and to look for lost children or adults. In this capacity, we work closely with the air station Provost Marshal's Office and the Military Police.
What all this points out is that with good leadership, dedicated volunteers and training, an organization can be fully accepted by served agencies without issue. The days of "I have my license and a yellow vest. I'm here to help." are over.
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To restate the question, how do you handle 1) coming up short and needing help from out of town? and 2) a request from another jurisdiction—amateur radio or emergency manager—for assistance?
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If you are operating in the context of ARES, you would contact your section or district EC. We have such a contact tree incorporated in our ARES playbook.
- Glenn W9IQ
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To restate the question, how do you handle 1) coming up short and needing help from out of town? and 2) a request from another jurisdiction—amateur radio or emergency manager—for assistance?
You define requirements for training ahead of time for ALL individuals and adhere to those requirements in all cases. If / when you make the request for additional assistance from outside your group you remind the folks you are making the request to about those requirements and require they show proof of those requirements.
But be warned, doing this can make it difficult for you to obtain help outside your group. Requiring these things to be a member of the group is a simple thing. You do it or you leave. But finding other groups with the same requirements is not going to be as easy. I was a VERT member for a few years. We had required training to be a member and had to redo that training at a certain interval. But we were ALL trained the same way with the same information. So what they knew was established. With ARES, no such training exists.
So the statement of "I have a radio and a yellow vest" truly doesn't cut it any more.
Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training. Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation. The ability to operate a radio is sort of established when you get a ham license. And lets be honest, anyone can operate a radio. It ain't hard. But if there was a requirement for CERT training, then the served agency can see two things. First is a commitment to being of service beyond just operating a radio, second is a set of skills that can be utilized. And there is a third thing here too. Once you are a CERT member, when you are activated, you are a first responder and are covered under the insurance all first responders are covered by and are legally held harmless for your actions. You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT. That's a nation wide thing in all states. Hams' don't have that. And therefore CAN'T be put in harms way at all.
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Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training. Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation. You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT. That's a nation wide thing in all states.
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A couple of points about this statement...Having ridden an ambulance before EMT's, then becoming an EMT, then a Nationally Regisitered EMT-Paramedic. All this training was well over 3000 hours, plus thousands of dollars. At one time were required to complete a Firefighter 1 class, another 300 hours.
Not sure where you got the idea that an EMT could not get sued, boy are you wrong! EMT's are sued daily. Ever watch TV and all the ads for lawyers. I have been called as an expert witness 3 times.
Every state has different laws/regs. For example, if you as a private citizen drive by an accident in Vermont or New Hampshire where 1st Responders have yet to arrive, you are required to stop and render aid, even if you have no training. According to the NIH (Where I have my Medical Control.) in 31 of the 50 states you have no duty to act unless you are on duty. The other 19 states you have a requirement to act, even if you are visiting from another state and it is up to you to know that.
By the way I also have 30 years in Law Enforcement. All my EMS was as a volunteer starting at age 16.
While your statement is a good idea, it is unreasable.
Gary W1MOW
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Thanks for your service, Gary.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training. Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation. You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT. That's a nation wide thing in all states.
A couple of points about this statement...Having ridden an ambulance before EMT's, then becoming an EMT, then a Nationally Regisitered EMT-Paramedic. All this training was well over 3000 hours, plus thousands of dollars. At one time were required to complete a Firefighter 1 class, another 300 hours.
Not sure where you got the idea that an EMT could not get sued, boy are you wrong! EMT's are sued daily. Ever watch TV and all the ads for lawyers. I have been called as an expert witness 3 times.
Every state has different laws/regs. For example, if you as a private citizen drive by an accident in Vermont or New Hampshire where 1st Responders have yet to arrive, you are required to stop and render aid, even if you have no training. According to the NIH (Where I have my Medical Control.) in 31 of the 50 states you have no duty to act unless you are on duty. The other 19 states you have a requirement to act, even if you are visiting from another state and it is up to you to know that.
By the way I also have 30 years in Law Enforcement. All my EMS was as a volunteer starting at age 16.
While your statement is a good idea, it is unreasable.
Gary W1MOW
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Fair enough. Ohio for sure, can't sue EMT's for attempting to render aid.
As far as the CERT training. CERT is not gonna make you a fireman or and EMT. The first aid is basic. It's honestly only a bit more than a Boy Scout Merit badge requirement for first aid. Been through both, taught both. Firefighting is how to operate a fire extinguisher and which one to use, or more importantly which one to NOT use on a small fire. Think trash can fire NOT dumpster fire size. The jacking cribbing and shoring is a bit of a here's how this works,,,, NEVER DO THIS as a CERT member. Meaning, one of the big things that's pushed is hazard recognition and avoidance. Then hazard mitigation, loosely defined as if it looks dangerous, put CAUTION tape around it and move on. The cribbing and shoring we learned was specific to structures that had clasped. Of course, you never enter a structurally unsound building. That was in hazard mitigation training. So you should never actually USE that part of the training. And the hazard avoidance stuff cut any possibility of law enforcement out as well. We were specifically told, and with good reason, if there is a problem like a riot, leave the area. Avoid that sort of thing.
Yes, EMT / firefighter cards require a TON of training. What a fire extinguisher is and which one to use is an evening class. Basic first aid is a couple nights. CRP is also a one night thing. I believe we were in class for 2 weeks for 3 or 4 hours a night.
Point I am making is the CERT training is consistent across all area's. So served agencies will know what you have been trained on and how much training you have had. The biggest thing being hazard avoidance and mitigation. There was also some situational awareness stuff for surveying a disaster scene and WHAT you should and should NOT report back to the incident command. And THAT is something that hams could be doing to assist with as there are gonna be a lot of operators that are gonna jump on the air before, during and after a situation occurs that MAY have useful information that a control operator with proper training could be reporting back to IC. But THEY need to be able to trust the information they are getting.
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Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers. Ham radio is essentially a hobby and can often hinder rather than help, require more oversight and supervision than it’s worth and isn’t dependable when and if actually needed.
I understand new hams enter the hobby with a sense that EMCON is real. The marketing is effective albeit misleading.
Maybe in some places. Here in Coastal NC the EOC relies on Hams heavily when the grid goes down. Our club has an HF "Tarheel" antenna, a 80 meter Dipole, and a 2-meter vertical on the city's tower at the police department. In fact, at the hurricane drill earlier this year, the County EOC Manager introduced us as "My radio support, The people I turn to when county coms go down and we can't talk to our police departments, Fire Departments, and hurricane shelters".
Our last hurricane, which was a Cat 4, landed 10 miles from my house. We had Hams at every city hall, at every fire department, at the EOC, and at all the designated shelters. The Neuse river flooded to our west, the Newport river flooded to our east, blocking 70 Hwy so we were literally cut off fromt he world. The ambulances couldn't get to either hospital, the water was too high for the NG deep-water vehicles until three days after the storm surge subsided, and the USCG helicopters were flying people to hospitals until they were grounded due to bad weather. Newport set up a temporary medical facility in the fire department manned by....<drum roll> Ham operators, who were constantly relaying info to the ECO County Emergency Planners. So maybe in Arizonna or South Dakota no one trusts "unprofessional volunteers". Of course, there's "wackos" but they get weeded out and "uninvited" fairly quickly.
In Pitt County, the entire city was flooded. There was ONE HAM standing in the rain at the school football field with a handheld directing USCG and NG helicopters where to land and drop off people who were rescued off their rooftops.
In my particular case, I had an elderly resident here a few blocks from me who ran out of medical oxygen. No place was filling medical O2 cylinders for weeks, and even if they were, 70 Hwy was blocked in both directions. This lady ran out of O2. I had four scuba cylinders full of 40% O2 in my garage and was able to bring them to her. I called my EMT friend and he told her to use them and if her O2 monitor sounded the "O2 drop" alarm, there was nothing anyone could do for her. Life flight was grounded and 70 hwy was blocked in both directions. So go ask that lady what her opinion is on "unprofessional Ham volunteers".
And I might remind you, there's tens of thousands of "volunteers" serving in Afghanistan, Iraq, and South Korea right now doing the best job our F'd up goverment will allow them to do.
There's bad cops, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad soldiers, bad politicians, etc. but we don't label them all bad because of the Derrick Chauvins and McMichaels in the group.
Our 9-1-1 center at the EOC has a dedicated cubicle complete with about six different radios, and they call US when the hurricane takes out the County coms, and the cell companies can't get the portable towers on site for a week.
Your comment is about as ridiculous as the "All black people are criminals" and "All mexicans are illegal" comments that appear every so often. Volunteers have their bad apples just like every other public service, and that's normal for any group. I never see "all nurses are bad and no one trusts them" comments when you see a nurse charged and convicted with abusing a rest home patient.
My transcript with NC EOM and CERT is two pages long, so volunteers CAN get the training to be para-volunteers if they put forth the effort and take their responsibility seriously. The whackos are weeded out before they ever get to the point that County EOC will issue them an access badge to get in the back door of the EOC (and lets them get into the donuts box).
Every Police Chief in the county, The Sheriff, the Fire Marshal, the VFD representatives, the State EOC officials, the Red Cross, the County managers, the State Police representatives, the DOT representative, the Salvation Army volunteers, the NC Dept of Ag representative, and the Baptist men were all at the drill. During Florence, fuelers couldn't get from Selma to deliver fuel, Duke Power couldn't deploy to get the grid back up, Local PD's didn't have the fuel to respond to any calls that weren't life endanger calls, but the Hams were at all the town halls in the County and the hurricane shelters relaying information to the EOC regarding what they needed and at the VFD's directing the USCG fast boat teams on what residents were in danger and needed rescuing.
Unless you've had to spend a week eating MRE's and sleeping on the dirty floor of the EOC unable to leave until the County coms are back up (while wondering how YOUR family was doing, and if YOUR house was still standing), with one female shower and one male shower to share with 100 other "unprofessional volunteers", maybe you don't understand the big picture. The last thing the mayor said to me at the last town hall meeting after he saw my "unprofessional" cap with my call sign on it was, "Is that your call sign?"..."Yessir. I live two blocks away on Lakeview Street. I have HF, 10 meter, 2-meter, 70 cm, a generator, and WinLink capabilities"..."Alright. I'm calling you next time I can't talk to my police officers or Fire Department." Our County coms are on a tower powered by a generator that has 1,000 gallons of "emergency" diesel to run it when the grid goes down. It doesn't take very long to go thru 1,000 gallons of diesel when the grid goes down, you have to share that with other emergency services, and you won't get more for a two weeks until the DOT gets the roads clear and the terminal starts operations again.
Furthermore, we don't show up until the County Emergency Operations planner ASKS us to. So obviously she has at least some measure of confidence in, trust in, and and need for our "services". I might not know the other volunteers personally, but since the NC governor requires all EOC "unprofessional volunteers" to have State mandated NIMS/FEMA/NCOEM basic training, I know they have training and I can be confident thay take their job seriously. I have to pay out of my pocket to attend the Emergency Management classes, pay put of my pocket for my First reponder classes (NC doesn't pay for the classes for "volunteers") , and have to invest my time at the training events that I otherwise could spend out laying on the beach watching bikinis walk by, so no normal person invests all that time and money just to be a whacko and get told to hit the road.
Yeah I know there's no shortage of whackos with a "Ham operator" badge to flash, a Boofang, and the obligatory orange vest and gung-ho pretend authority with no training other than YouTube who decide to show up and get in the way. But I respectfully ask you please don't put all volunteers in the same category with the whackos.
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC0.jpg)
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC1.jpg)
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC2.jpg)
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC3.jpg)
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC4.jpg)
(http://www.kd3y.com/images/radio/EOC/EOC5.jpg)
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I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's. They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.
If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out. WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters. And that's what they do.
If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services. And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.
If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios. Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges. NO.
I don't know about other places, but around here you can't even get NEAR a tower unless you're a licensed and bonded climber. A worn-out climbers harness off eBay and a hard hat from WalMart just won't get it. The last time we needed an antenna replaced on our tower, we had to pay a guy $1,500 to climb 300 feet and replace the antenna and some damaged coax. I suspect the idea that any-old-body can show up with a Boofang and orange vest and be assigned to anything other than mopping the EOC restroom floors is pure ham-hater folklore. Hell, we had to sign a release, provide proof of liability insurance, and jump thru hoops with three different town departments just to get the County Water Dept. manager to allow us to put an antenna on the towns water tower for the town to use during an emergency in case the county coms failed, and the Ham doing the begging to get it to happen was the Towns own Planning and Building Inspector.
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And the major reason for that is when the alarm sounds, you don't know who is going to show up. So, you respond with who is there.
LOL. Yessir. I remember a young green Infantry squad leader in Iraq 30 years ago who bitched to his CO because he didn't think he had the resources to do the assigned mission. CPT George, Army Airborne Ranger, commanding, responded with, "Anthony, you go to war with the team you have, not the team you'd like to have." That young green team leader was me.
When the "professionals" are beat down and worn-out, everything seems to be going to hell, the coms are down, the roads are flooded or blocked by down trees, and the power grid is a tangled mess, you use whatever volunteer assets you have at hand.
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I don't know about other places, but around here you can't even get NEAR a tower unless you're a licensed and bonded climber. A worn-out climbers harness off eBay and a hard hat from WalMart just won't get it. The last time we needed an antenna replaced on our tower, we had to pay a guy $1,500 to climb 300 feet and replace the antenna and some damaged coax. I suspect the idea that any-old-body can show up with a Boofang and orange vest and be assigned to anything other than mopping the EOC restroom floors is pure ham-hater folklore. Hell, we had to sign a release, provide proof of liability insurance, and jump thru hoops with three different town departments just to get the County Water Dept. manager to allow us to put an antenna on the towns water tower for the town to use during an emergency in case the county coms failed, and the Ham doing the begging to get it to happen was the Towns own Planning and Building Inspector.
This sounds very familiar.
My club has two repeaters utilizing a city-owner tower and building (shack) that's located on property owned by the local water district. When we decided to go full solar power on the repeaters, as the club President, I had to sign a bunch a paperwork with both the city and the water district to be able to install a pair of 100W panels on the tower. We now have totally grid independent repeaters with battery backup for night time operation.
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The State of Oregon provides ham equipment for every county EOC,
as long as the local ARES group is organized to support it. That
includes requirements for regular exercises. The State level ARES/RACES
organization has standards for certification at different levels, so
we have some idea of the capabilities of someone helping
out from another county.
Why are they willing to spend the money?? Because some years
ago, the volunteer operators provided the only contact between the
state OEM and several counties that got badly flooded. Yes, they've
also implemented improvements in their own comm systems, but the
failure of all the state systems for the various agencies was so
thorough, that it made sense.
The local groups all work with the county emergency managers to
identify local needs and install and exercise equipment. Yes, there
have been some Yahoos who didn't want to take the training,
participate in exercises, or were generally incompetent or otherwise
ineffective, including some in leadership positions. That's always
a problem with volunteer organizations, and ham radio is no
different from many others.
At the moment we have more requests for support from agencies
than we can reasonably provide in an emergency. That requires
recruitment and training, as well as advance planning and
a flexible organizational structure focused on meeting local
needs. And its a lot of work.
It's a far cry from someone showing up in a yellow vest and
an HT, thinking they will save the day. But if your local organization
hasn't already developed a good working relationship with
your served agencies, standards for certification, and
a commitment to preparation and training, then that's
what you're going to get. And it probably won't end well...
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Much of the time in many instances communications assistance is declined for spurious reasons.
Any volunteer firefighter and or fire police requires nims in order to be in the department as an active member.
I have seen ares coordinators tell some volunteers to go home and stay out of the way. ( in those exact words )
How is this promoting the service?
If you make it difficult for anyone to contribute to the service, then its no wonder when new applications seriously wane!
Quite simply put if you can afford a high priced radio to set up an ares station, what gives you the right to dissuade the cheap handheld and the cell phone?
If someone is volunteering their time and effort, dont you think it would be better to use them in some function or another?
Writing down messages they hear for example.
Quite often they may catch something the operator misses and having duplicate recording only helps clear a scenario.
Yes you will get a few yahoos, thats normal!
We have to deal with self styled" reporters" who will live record a fatal crash and post it on you tube. And rely on the first ammendment as their Right to do so.
Offer the training if they refuse it they have no business being there and let the police handle it.
But you should know many of us volunteers who are also amateures do take training in ares and disaster control.
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Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.
I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.
Don't buy into the ARRL ARES crap, you will never do
anything in a emergency except maybe clean the Port-A-Jon.
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Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.
I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.
Ditto. I do contract work for a large city PSAP Dispatch Center. They have a conference room set up for ham volunteers to play radio. They have strict instructions not to interfere. The unofficial name of the conference room is the Pretenders Lounge. Just a bunch of old Baby Boomers playing cards. None of the radios will work underground.
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I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's. They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.
If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out. WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters. And that's what they do.
If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services. And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.
If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios. Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges. NO.
And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.
Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers is a gross injustice to those who have taken the time to learn properly by building their own gear from scratch.
Passing a test after you've studied fcc's regs mauals and the arrls antenna guides.
Setting up multiple stations!
No single antenna system is perfect, and no radio can transmit on more than one frequency at a time and still be legal.
You set up a powerful 2 meter but is a 10 meter going to interfere with it?
Its just a resource just as people are.
And any leader who cannot properly utilize a resource is not qualified to do so
And refering to a volunteer organization as not a " REAL SERVICE" smacks of elitism in the worst form.
We have to take the same training as the paid departments, we have to compete for the same grants that paid departments do.
Unlike a paid department we dont have shifts, we have our own jobs, but our free time is always all on call.
No matter what time of day or night, No matter if its 102 degrees or -40 I am out there ( and by the way In 62 years old)
And a military vet as well.
This whole discussion sounds suspiciously like insurance shills that keeps popping up on the firehouse forums trying to influence communities to do away with volunteer departments
We also face the same crap from other agencies over fire police( assigned traffic control)
Some of us for medical conditions cannot participate in interior so for our own safety we are external crew or fire police.
If not for us being there full active firefighters would be pulled from the teams to control traffic and that puts the rest of the crew and any investigator in danger.
Do you think its pleasant to have people dumping $#!t on you just because your a volunteer?
To the point we save lives and properties a lot more than we lose them, we do it with no pay, and no time limits.
We often have to make do with used equipment donated by other departments.
And have a hell of a lot harder time getting equipment than paid departments.
Our surrounding communities and departments rely on each other extensively because we are spread thin over a very large area and we face a lot more stress as well.
So whos a " real " firefighter?
Answer
ALL OF US ARE! paid or volunteer alike.
So dont crap on hams utilize them correctly,
Recording messages, or foot messanger between on scene commander and communications( providing they do not get in the way of the crews) or utilize them as observers.( the more eyes on a subject gains more information and paints a highly detailed picture)
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Sorry for ranting like that!
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions but when its detrimental to others, it serves no good purpose.
So rather than argue semantics, how about we use the information to make improvements rather than throw stones!
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And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.
Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?
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The common requirement these days are an MOU, multiple levels of NIMS certification and regular drills with the served agencies. In my experience, the served agencies are grateful for the voluntary assistance and expertise that the hams bring.
I also don't want a fireman showing up at my shack to install and tune my tribander. Well, OK, maybe install the antenna with their ladder truck....
- Glenn W9IQ
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Well, OK, maybe install the antenna with their ladder truck....
- Glenn W9IQ
Seen that done. Way cheaper than a crane if you have the right connections.
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And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.
Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?
Which would you rather have...a volunteer helping provide back up to the firefighters, or taking trained firefighters off the front line to do the things needed that a volunteer can do?
And this is even more true in rural areas like I am in where Fire and EMS are also volunteers. We have no one sitting around waiting for the next call. We are at work or home with our families and rush away when the pager goes off.
Maybe we should just not help and watch from a distance while your house burns down, or your stuck in a car wrapped around a tree, or you're lying on the floor with a heart attack and no one shows up to help, or many of the countless other things we are asked to do. And remember that in order for us to help you, the amount of training we go through on OUR time.
Is it so much to ask for just a tiny amount of appreciation for those willing to show up and help in ANY way they can? Well?
Did you stop and think that those Boomers in wheelchairs are the ones willing to show up to help? WHERE ARE THE REST OF YOU???????? It is easy to pin a name on a group and make fun of them, isn't it? Just wait a few years and we will all be gone. Then what? Are you then going to step up to the plate?
Sometimes it makes me want to take my 25-year fire service certificate and burn it under the a$$&$ of those who thumb their noses at the work we do for YOU.
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When a ham says that all hams are ignorant, lazy, unskilled and unwanted, one must conclude that the ham making the statement falls into the same category.
In this case, however, I reject the premise but accept the conclusion.
- Glenn W9IQ
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And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.
Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?
Which would you rather have...a volunteer helping provide back up to the firefighters, or taking trained firefighters off the front line to do the things needed that a volunteer can do?
And this is even more true in rural areas like I am in where Fire and EMS are also volunteers. We have no one sitting around waiting for the next call. We are at work or home with our families and rush away when the pager goes off.
Maybe we should just not help and watch from a distance while your house burns down, or your stuck in a car wrapped around a tree, or you're lying on the floor with a heart attack and no one shows up to help, or many of the countless other things we are asked to do. And remember that in order for us to help you, the amount of training we go through on OUR time.
Is it so much to ask for just a tiny amount of appreciation for those willing to show up and help in ANY way they can? Well?
Did you stop and think that those Boomers in wheelchairs are the ones willing to show up to help? WHERE ARE THE REST OF YOU???????? It is easy to pin a name on a group and make fun of them, isn't it? Just wait a few years and we will all be gone. Then what? Are you then going to step up to the plate?
Sometimes it makes me want to take my 25-year fire service certificate and burn it under the a$$&$ of those who thumb their noses at the work we do for YOU.
Nail on the head there (thumbs up)
There are far too many out there who will gain that elitist attitude because of 2 things
They have had poor relation or experience with other hams or organizations.
Or their ego has swelled their head so much that any real intelligence and common sence got squeezed out.
No in our hobby amateur radio is rife with elitists as well.
Many of us like the qrp because its a true abd satisfying challenge,
Some use the cheap chinese junk AND modify them for better performance and cleaner transmitting.
But we also get dumped on if we dont have a $4000 radio and a bird roaster amp cranking out the legal limit of power.
Ive read the comment on another forum
" if you cant afford the big gear, stay the f#(k off the air"
Or reading the comments " throw it away" , " use it for target practice"
Yeah theres a lot of angry old ops out there who were very upset that the fcc dropped the requirement for cw in the test.
Are the taking the time to teach someone or are they just sitting back and bit(#ing?
I for one am re learning morse to be able to participate. ( not using digital or software to send the code and decode but building and using straight keys, sideswipers, and iambic)
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Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.
I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.
Don't buy into the ARRL ARES crap, you will never do
anything in a emergency except maybe clean the Port-A-Jon.
I fail to understand why this topic always seems to generate comments like this one. There are enough different activities available in amateur radio to satisfy just about anyone. If you got into ham radio to help your community during an emergency, good for you. If you got into ham radio to talk to people on the other side of the world, or communicate with someone via a satellite, good for you too.
If you're not interested in emergency communications, then fine. Go back to your FT8 and don't make derisive comments about those of us that are involved in emergency or community service communications.