eHam
eHam Forums => Satellites => Topic started by: N3WJ on August 07, 2022, 08:45:18 AM
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Despite being a ham for over 50 yrs I am a newbie to satellites. I have done my research and read threads here, watched lots of YouTube videos and checked out AMSAT and ARISS websites among others. I have had some initial success making contacts through both the ISS and SO-50 using my Icom ID52a and an Elk handheld antenna. I do have some questions though and was hoping to get some input.
1. Right now I am sticking with the FM birds. It looks both expensive and intimidating to get into the SSB/CW ones. I know about the ISS, SO-50 and AO-91. What other FM sats would you recommend?
2. Has anyone tried the dual band COMPACTenna for satellite work? There is some mention of it on their website and in the review this month in QST. I like the idea of a more omnidirectional antenna that I can just put up on the roof and forget about it and not worry about running up there with the Elk and the HT whenever I want to make contact.
3. Has anyone used the Alinco DR 735 for this purpose. I saw an ad for it, and it claims to be full duplex for FM on both 144/440 and it is 50 watts so may make up for the lack of directivity using an omnidirectional antenna vs. the Elk. It is also, by far, the most affordable option I have seen with full duplex, costing only about $330.
Thanks in advance for any feedback for these questions and any other hints you may have.
73,
Warren
N3WJ
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Hi Warren, welcome to the SAT crowd! Like you, I was licensed for 50 years and thought to try something new. Been on the SATs for over 2 years now.
First, check out Twitter for operations and rover info, and a great place to ask questions. My ID is @AC9O_Paul. As you follow more hams, more info will become available.
Also, check out AMSAT.ORG. lots of good info there. Join and you can review their journal for lots of info and operating tips.
Another FM satellite that you could try it PO-101. There are a couple of others, and perhaps new ones, but your list is pretty complete for a newcomer.
I use an Arrow II portable antenna. I have tried (and others too) omni antenna and they are pretty poor performers. You can use more power, but if you can't hear yourself, all you do is QRM others. I have ONLY operated portable, including SSB/CW with an IC-9700 hung from a shoulder rig. It's not for everyone, but it's a pretty solid combination.
Full duplex is really a necessity. I started with a Kenwood TH-D72 with good luck. I don't know about the Alinco. That would be a question for a group like Twitter.
You are welcome to email with any questions, QRZ is good.
73
Paul, AC9O
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Hi!
Answering some of your questions below...
1. Right now I am sticking with the FM birds. It looks both expensive and intimidating to get into the SSB/CW ones. I know about the ISS, SO-50 and AO-91. What other FM sats would you recommend?
Right now, those are probably it. You could consider PO-101, but for now it is only active over the west coast. LilacSat-2 (CAS-3H) is sometimes on, but you may try for it and only hear telemetry instead of FM. But it is occasionally on, and there are some who listen for it in the hopes of working other stations through it.
3. Has anyone used the Alinco DR 735 for this purpose. I saw an ad for it, and it claims to be full duplex for FM on both 144/440 and it is 50 watts so may make up for the lack of directivity using an omnidirectional antenna vs. the Elk. It is also, by far, the most affordable option I have seen with full duplex, costing only about $330.
The DR-735 is capable of full-duplex operation for FM satellites. Unfortunately, it won't do well with SO-50 or the ISS repeater, satellites with 2m uplinks with 70cm downlinks. There is a bit of 70cm receiver desense when you transmit on 2m. The DR-735 is OK for AO-91 and, when available, PO-101 - these have 70cm uplinks and 2m downlinks.
I have posted some videos where I used a DR-735 to work satellites...
http://www.youtube.com/va7ewk
If you are looking for a new 2m/70cm FM mobile radio that works well for FM satellites, you might consider the Icom IC-2730A. Costs a little more than the DR-735, the mounting bracket for the radio "box" is not included (it is sold as an option for Icom's current mobile radios), but it performs much better than the DR-735 on FM satellites. The IC-2730A is FM-only, and doesn't even offer a packet/data port like other mobile radios - including the DR-735.
I didn't directly answer your question about the COMPACTenna, since I haven't used it. In general, omnidirectional antennas will be a disappointment with our current satellites. Eggbeaters are marginally better than verticals, but you may end up having to use preamps to overcome the lack of gain in the direction of the satellites. An antenna like an Elk or Arrow on a TV antenna rotator, pointed up 15 to 20 degrees above the horizon (or local surroundings) may do better.
Good luck, and 73!
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Paul & Patrick
Thanks so much for the quick response and the great information. I've avoided Twitter all these years but I may just have to get on board with it if there is all this good info :D. I've pretty much read everything currently on the AMSAT website. The IC9700 seems like an incredible rig but $1800 is a lot until I know how much I'm committed to this!
Patrick, thanks for the YouTube link. I watched some of the videos and will have to look into the IC2730. It's actually a few dollars less than the Alinco and does seem to work really well. I'm interested in the way you used D-Star since I did not know it could be used for the birds. I am on it with my ID52a. I'll have to learn more about using it on satellites once I become a bit more proficient. I'll also have to try PO-101. My current QTH is actually in Sedona, AZ so not far from you in Scottsdale so it should be an easy reach. I'll listen for you on some future passes.
Thanks again guys!
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Patrick, thanks for the YouTube link. I watched some of the videos and will have to look into the IC2730. It's actually a few dollars less than the Alinco and does seem to work really well. I'm interested in the way you used D-Star since I did not know it could be used for the birds. I am on it with my ID52a. I'll have to learn more about using it on satellites once I become a bit more proficient. I'll also have to try PO-101. My current QTH is actually in Sedona, AZ so not far from you in Scottsdale so it should be an easy reach. I'll listen for you on some future passes.
IIRC the IC-2730A with the mobile mounting bracket makes the total price a little more than the DR-735, which comes with that bracket.
AO-27 was originally designed to relay data, not FM voice traffic. It just happened that D-Star uses the same data format (GMSK) that AO-27 was designed to relay. As you can see and hear in some of those videos, the D-Star audio through AO-27 can be pretty good. AO-27 has an onboard clock that needs to be reset, before we in the continental USA have a chance to use it again. If/when that happens, you may be able to add AO-27 to your list of workable FM satellites.
In the past few weeks, PO-101 has been available for one pass, along the US west coast. If you're in Sedona, you may be able to take advantage of PO-101. Some passes may be too low for you to work, where others may be decent for coverage - and activity.
73!
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I had found SSB/CW easier than FM sats. The reason is that many SSB stations can operate at the same time without problems. Also I found that I could operate them with the same basic appliances I had already. You might use transverters. I see new transverters being sold from Ukraine on Ebay. That can be an option. I had used by the way a TS811 for uplink and a downconverter for downlink connected to an HF softrock receiver. Everything worked full duplex as the downconverter and the TS811 were 'separated' by a diplexer sharing the same wideband logperiodic. I enjoyed I could operate them without spending 2 cents more. So you might find your way.
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You'll find SSB/CW satellite operation is not intimidating. There's just a small learning curve but with a good setup, inside a day or so you'll be logging many QSO's. IMO, for the shortest learning curve and ease of operation I suggest an ICOM IC-9700, a small set of VHF/UHF yagi's (such as the M2 LEO-PACK short boom yagi's), a Yaesu G-5500 Az/El rotor, and the iGatemini.com S.A.T. Satellite Tracker interface. If rig cost is an issue consider an older Satellite rig; a few examples being: Yaesu FT-847 or FT-736R, or Kenwood TS-2000, or ICOM IC-910. You can also save money by using VHF and UHF Egg Beater antennas. The Egg Beater antennas eliminate the cost of an Az/El rotator, although these antennas provide less gain (compared to a yagi), so I'd recommend a receive preamplifiers be added to these antennas.
GL
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2. Has anyone tried the dual band COMPACTenna for satellite work? There is some mention of it on their website and in the review this month in QST. I like the idea of a more omnidirectional antenna that I can just put up on the roof and forget about it and not worry about running up there with the Elk and the HT whenever I want to make contact.
Since Patrick took 1 & 3, lemme get this one.
Omni & more power - You are going to make up for the uplink that way, but not the downlink. The gain on a directional antenna is as important for receiving, if not moreso, than it is for transmitting.
up on the roof - Coax loss... Even with good coax, you will likely see a lot more feedline loss on UHF than you will with a few feet to a handheld antenna. So you would likely have to install a mast mount preamp. And depending on the length of the run, that might be the case even if it was a directional antenna with a rotor.
So... what about a different antenna? If you can acquire a TV rotor, you can likely build or acquire a small directional antenna (don't want a huge one; would be too much weight AND gain) say 3 like an Arrow, Elk or similar and then aim the antenna about 15-20 degrees above the horizon. Most LEO satellites spend the majority of their time below 40 degrees relative to any one point. So in other words... when the satellite goes overhead, it shoots by relatively quickly AND it's overhead... it's going to be louder than at the horizon! A number of sat ops (including me) have tried something like this and it worked pretty well. You do not get 100 percent of the pass every time (as it fades some when overhead), but usually you are busy rotating the antenna around to the 'other side' anyway.
That said... even with a directional antenna, you may still need a preamp on UHF downlink birds. With my trial setup like this (before going to full AZ-EL yagis) I had 3 elements on VHF, 5 on UHF with ~50-60 feet of cheap RG-213 coax and would work a number of birds... SO-50 was not one of them. I could actually hear SO-50 easier with a small handmade 3 element yagi mounted right on an HT while sitting in my chair in the shack than I could over the outside antenna. Without a preamp and being pointed exactly at it, just didn't work well enough.
So... hopefully that answers a few questions or at least brings up a few more. ;) A lot of hams new to satellites think 'Oh, I'll put up outside antennas, will be so much easier,' but there is a lot more to consider than most realize. I did start out that way and went to handheld roving later... and now that I have moved to a new QTH with lots of trees, occasional roving is about it for me. I do have up a pair of omni antennas on the roof with about 40 feet of coax, but I am VERY limited as to what I can hear. If it's not right overhead, I'm not hearing much.
As always, your mileage may vary... but I don't think a gallon will get you too much further than everyone else. :D
73 & welcome to the addiction that is satellites, Kevin N4UFO
P.S. While I may only have been a ham for 45 years at this point, I got back into satellites (I used to work RS-12/13 on HF in the late 90s) when my wife bought me an HT that cost 50 bucks for my 50th birthday to try out SO-50. One contact and you could hear the line being pulled out of the reel. ;D
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If rig cost is an issue consider an older Satellite rig; a few examples being: Yaesu FT-847
You and I were typing at the same time... I would agree that linear sats are easier than most think, but would also say skip the eggbeaters if at all possible; I can't tell you how many times I have tried to work someone on the linear sats and they kept very loudly saying, 'QRZ? Is someone calling me?' Only to find out they had eggbeaters... and often WITH preamps.
As for the FT-847... I had one... fine rig. But getting very long in the tooth. A lot of the parts that tend to go out (power switch, find tuning control, etc.) are nearly impossible to find any more. I would make VERY sure the rig was in good condition and not spend a lot of money.
Another route is what I use for portable... a pair of FT-817s. If you hunt, that can be had for a reasonable price. A lot more of those floating around than other rigs. If 5 watts is not enough, get an 817 and an 897. (maybe an 857, I think that would work) Lots of options.
Okay...73
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Good points about buying used gear Kevin. Personally I would highly recommend buying new gear, (ideally an IC-9700), rather than taking chances on used equipment, especially if manufacturers have dropped repair support on these older models.
On my Sat setup I added receiver preamps to both my LEO-PACK VHF and UHF yagi's Arm chair copy is typical with this arrangement. I also added M-Square's optional circulation polarization switch elements on both antennas. Having the ability to switch between Right Hand Circular and Left Hard Circular polarization has made a major difference on occasion.
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Thank you so much for all of these replies. It's clear that the ham satellite community is a great, helpful group! I just wanted to clarify my situation a bit.
1. As a newbie to the field, the ability to stand on my roof deck with a handheld antenna and an HT I already owned and "bounce" a 5w signal through a repeater located in a little cube, traveling thousands of miles an hour, hundreds of miles up in the sky and still make a contact is pretty mind blowing! It's probably why all of you are into this. Even my XYL thinks it's pretty amazing and actually comes up and watches - a first in ham radio!
2. Until I am fully "committed" I wanted to keep gear expenditures down. An IC 9700 would be great (I use an IC 7300 for HF and love it) but, as I mentioned before, it's a bit excessive to my needs right now. I have been watching used gear ads both here and on QRZ.com and it amazes me how much older multi-mode, sat capable gear goes for! Even a 20+ y/o TS 2000 can fetch >$1000. I could go with one, or I guess 2, Yaesu 817, 818, 857, etc but that really adds up also.
3. I live in a very strict HOA community. Yes, I know, "my bad" for moving into one but when you want to live in one of the most beautiful places in the world, there's really not much choice. So, anything visible on the roof and I would have them at my door within hours >:(. Heck, we can't even park a car in our own driveways for more than a few minutes without getting worried. That kind of eliminates yagis on az/alt mounts, even a small TV rotor. That's why I was thinking about something really low profile such as the COMPACTenna. Even "eggbeaters" are ridiculously expensive at over $300 per band before pre-amp and low loss coax.
It looks, for now, like I will just continue to try to perfect my operating of the FM birds using my current setup and try some of the other FM satellites that have been recommended. As much as I would like to try SSB/CW, and appreciate the encouraging words about those sat modes, that might have to wait for a really good buy on used gear comes up or I take the plunge with a 9700!
I can't thank you all enough for your input!
Warren
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I can't thank you all enough for your input!
If I may speak for the others, you are quite welcome... and thank you for the nice comments on 'the community'. (I just hope we can drown out the few that don't quite earn that compliment.) And just to let you know, your position/comments are quite common. The desire for 'more' is there, it's just unfortunate that there is no easy/cheap fix.
To address one more thing on the COMPACTenna... now that I have taken a closer look, I would say the one big issue against it, is that it is vertically polarized. No different that a J-pole, ground plane, etc. You might look at what I put up. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NBNDN3T (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NBNDN3T) Being it's dual band and single feedpoint, it would not allow for a preamp, but if you kept the feedline short, might be okay. It only needs to be high enough to clear obstructions, so it doesn't need to stick way up over the house... Hey, it would only cost you the funds for the antenna, feedline and accessories to try. I HAVE used it to make a sat contact or two, but then again, I don't have a full duplex rig in the shack; I was just trying to help out a ham with a contact with my grid. If I bring my new full duplex FM rig in here, might do better. My catch is all the trees and hills around my house. At my previous QTH, I had a 2/3 acre lot without a tree on it!
Good on ya, for the effort, the desire and a good attitude... hope I get to work you on the birds!
GL & 73, Kevin N4UFO
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Hi Warren,
Could you email me direct at af5cc@fidmail.com? Your email address isn't on QRZ.COM or I would have emailed you.
73 John AF5CC
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Hi Warren,
Glad to see there are many responses. Note that I too live in a HOA area. I started with antennas in the attic, and was able to get some low profile outdoor antennas up also. The plus with VHF/UHF is that the antennas are relatively small, so you may be able to install them in obscure areas.
Don't forget about temporary antennas. I use a 15 foot fiberglass mast from DXE off my deck to raise the antenna. Because it can be put up and taken down easily, you may be able to skirt some of the issues with the HOA.
Keep in mind the 9700 is good for more than satellite. Perhaps you will get the VUCC bug for 2m and 70c, and perhaps even 1.6G?
73
Paul, AC9O
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I can't thank you all enough for your input!
To address one more thing on the COMPACTenna... now that I have taken a closer look, I would say the one big issue against it, is that it is vertically polarized. No different that a J-pole, ground plane, etc. You might look at what I put up. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NBNDN3T (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NBNDN3T) Being it's dual band and single feedpoint, it would not allow for a preamp, but if you kept the feedline short, might be okay. It only needs to be high enough to clear obstructions, so it doesn't need to stick way up over the house...
Thanks Kevin. Looking at the COMPACTenna website they claim that they are "elliptical" polarization as opposed to vertical. I'm not sure if that will make a difference although they claim it does. I might reach out to the guy who designed it for more detail. I appreciate the link for the horizontal dual band loop. I used one of those when I was playing around with 6m and they work really well for such a small footprint. With pure horizontal polarization though, I'm not sure about how it would work the birds. I'll look more into that also.
Don't forget about temporary antennas. I use a 15 foot fiberglass mast from DXE off my deck to raise the antenna. Because it can be put up and taken down easily, you may be able to skirt some of the issues with the HOA.
Keep in mind the 9700 is good for more than satellite. Perhaps you will get the VUCC bug for 2m and 70c, and perhaps even 1.6G?
I appreciate those thoughts Paul. Unfortunately, I've had to get very used to temporary antennas. For HF I use one of the DXE TW antennas which works GREAT! I can deploy it in a few minutes and take it down when finished. It's essentially invisible. For the satellites, I was already looking at some of the MFJ heavy duty tripods and masts to do just what you suggested.
As for the capability of the 9700 to do other cool things, way back I played around with 2m DXing using an old Icom 275 (I think was the rig). It was fun but back then I had a house where I could put up a semblance of a decent antenna!
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Thanks Kevin. Looking at the COMPACTenna website they claim that they are "elliptical" polarization as opposed to vertical. I'm not sure if that will make a difference although they claim it does. With pure horizontal polarization though, I'm not sure about how it would work the birds.
I missed that in my perusing... if it were truly elliptical, it would help as far as fading due to the satellite's rotation. But that is not really the worry. What I mean, is that when the antenna is vertical, it does not hear much over it's head. The horizontal loop, while being horizontal as far as the horizon is concerned, will likely hear a bit better than a vertical when the satellite is overhead... and it doesn't take as much 'antenna' since the bird is a lot 'louder' when overhead. - HOA wise, keep in mind that if you were to go with a COMPAC antenna, you would still need to either mount it on metal or attach the ground radial counterpoise thing they sell.
As for 6m, Yes! I have had small yagis and quads in years past and done pretty well on 6m. But at the new QTH, was not really set up to have rotatable antennas; did have one old internet sat dish mount that could hold a pole, so I put up a PAR Electronics OA-50 horizontal antenna along with the 2m/440 I already mentioned. Wow. First season, over 300 grids confirmed... this year I added to that and am up to 388 including two in JAPAN!!! This is all 50 watts on FT8. I'm sure the mode makes a lot of difference, but you don't do that well with a wet noodle! :D
73, Kevin N4UFO
P.S. Be careful e-mailing with John AF5CC... he'll get that fish barb hooked in your jaw really good! (Kidding!)