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eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: KK4GMU on October 08, 2022, 12:16:55 PM

Title: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 08, 2022, 12:16:55 PM
A fellow ham suggested I use a neighbors tree branch that slightly overhangs my property for an end fed antenna.

In my thinking that may provoke excess attention to my antenna in my HOA.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K1VSK on October 08, 2022, 12:37:46 PM
Yes, it might. Or might not… I love binary issues.

Why not ask your neighbor?
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W0CKI on October 08, 2022, 01:30:06 PM
I would certainly ask the neighbor first. It's his tree.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 08, 2022, 02:33:19 PM
The neighbor is absentee. The house is not occupied.  I don't know who the owner is.  I'd be more concerned with the adjoining nosy neighbors wondering what I'm doing with my unknown neighbor's tree.  I guess if it just doesn't "feel right" I shouldn't do it.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KC0W on October 08, 2022, 02:36:44 PM


I would certainly ask the neighbor first. It's his tree.

 (https://i.ibb.co/rGpsxyS/Capture1.png) (https://ibb.co/jvwRy42)

 The same would apply for attaching a wire antenna to a tree branch that overhangs onto your property.

Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: WA3SKN on October 08, 2022, 02:58:17 PM
I would suggest a triangular loop made with stranded stainless steel fishing line between condo, branch and weight... fed with some open wire and a tuner.  DX engineering has some 1/2 inch stuff that would be less noticable.  No need to cut to frequency either!

-Mike.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: WB6BYU on October 08, 2022, 03:59:02 PM
Depends on a lot of factors, particularly how your neighbor
feels about it.

Laws vary from one location to another, but often you have
some legal rights to use a branch hanging over onto your
property, assuming you can do so without damaging the tree.

HOA attention may depend on the thickness of the wire
you use.  I have a doublet up on my roof made from #26
stranded, insulated wire with brown/green/black stripes.
The end ropes are black microcord.  When I show it to hams,
we generally have to stand right under it.  It is very difficult
to see from the street - until the sun glints off of it just right,
or we get a bit of ice / snow on the wire.

A lot also depends on the the background - harder to see
wires with trees behind them then with a bright sky.

Are you planning that the wire hangs straight down as a
vertical?  (Possibly pulled towards the trunk so it isn't
quite as obvious?)  Or something running horizontally
from the house?  The latter would put more sideways
stress on the branch, which might be an issue, depending
on size and strength.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK2DOG on October 08, 2022, 04:59:02 PM
I'm not a lawyer but I understand that if a neighbor's tree branch is hanging over/onto YOUR property, you have the green light to cut/trim it. So...why not take advantage of a branch that doesn't quite need trimming?
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: SWMAN on October 08, 2022, 05:25:20 PM
 I would say go for it, he probably won’t even notice it. If he says anything I would just take it down and go to plan B.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KF4HR on October 08, 2022, 06:25:27 PM
You may want to consider what might happen if you connected your antenna to your neighbors tree and lightning hit your antenna, possibly the tree to catch fire.  I'd recommend getting permission first.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 08, 2022, 06:42:02 PM
if i had a list of worries 14 pages long id put that on the bottom of page 15
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9AC on October 08, 2022, 08:02:53 PM
I'm not a lawyer but I understand that if a neighbor's tree branch is hanging over/onto YOUR property, you have the green light to cut/trim it.

That's the general rule in arbor law.  However, each state has its own set of rules that are governed by state statute or case law.   

Paul, W9AC
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K0UA on October 09, 2022, 10:27:19 AM
if i had a list of worries 14 pages long id put that on the bottom of page 15

That is kind of the way I was thinking. And the fact that the owner is unknown and not present and the house is totally unoccupied is just a bonus. I say use it. After all the branch is in your airspace.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K5LXP on October 10, 2022, 05:19:53 AM
We're talking about something along the lines of some paracord or mason line to hold a wire up?  Consider worst case - someone comes along and tells you to take it down.  You can decide from there how important it is to you to argue or leave it up.  Odds are high no one will care.  Forgiveness is always easier than permission, though in this case you would need neither. 

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KG4RUL on October 11, 2022, 03:14:13 AM
...  Forgiveness is always easier than permission .....

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

That attitude has landed more than one individual in court.  ;)
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K1VSK on October 11, 2022, 06:55:47 AM
...  Forgiveness is always easier than permission .....

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

That attitude has landed more than one individual in court.  ;)

And some potentially hefty liability for accumulated fines.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 13, 2022, 03:39:33 PM
...  Forgiveness is always easier than permission .....

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM

That attitude has landed more than one individual in court.  ;)

And some potentially hefty liability for accumulated fines.

My thoughts exactly.  If I'm going to spend time and money on an antenna, I prefer to have full control and not subject to someone else whims, whether a neighbor's or the HOA's - and without being concerned about liability issues that may or may not be legit.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 13, 2022, 07:49:11 PM
what else could we worry about now that is 'settled"
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: N2SR on October 14, 2022, 04:36:45 AM
cut the tree down and put a tower up the same height in it's place

Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 14, 2022, 08:35:18 AM
cut the tree down and put a tower up the same height in it's place

The "no compromise" antenna in the HOA.  I love it! 8) :) :D
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W3SLK on October 15, 2022, 07:20:08 AM
I don't wish to stir up any arguments here nor hijack a thread. Just a general question. How are HOA's in response to a wire antennas? There's a possibility I may move to SC and there seems to be a plethora of HOA's even where the 'land-owner' has over an acre of property. My desire is not erect a tower but use wire antenna's mostly supported by trees, (hence asking on this thread!).
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K1VSK on October 15, 2022, 08:59:55 AM
I don't wish to stir up any arguments here nor hijack a thread. Just a general question. How are HOA's in response to a wire antennas? There's a possibility I may move to SC and there seems to be a plethora of HOA's even where the 'land-owner' has over an acre of property. My desire is not erect a tower but use wire antenna's mostly supported by trees, (hence asking on this thread!).
CC&Rs vary among HOAs so no single answer is possible. Do your due diligence once you narrow the options and read the respective rules as well as local building codes. Some CC&Rs differentiate types of antennas or height or location permitted, others make no distinction while still others are silent on the issue. And obviously there are areas where no HOAs exist despite the myth perpetuated here that everyplace is an HOA.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 15, 2022, 09:51:21 AM
I don't wish to stir up any arguments here nor hijack a thread. Just a general question. How are HOA's in response to a wire antennas? There's a possibility I may move to SC and there seems to be a plethora of HOA's even where the 'land-owner' has over an acre of property. My desire is not erect a tower but use wire antenna's mostly supported by trees, (hence asking on this thread!).

General thoughts on when I will would rather "ask forgiveness rather than ask permission" and vice versa:

I would ask forgiveness rather than ask permission when I install something that requires little cost or effort to install or remove.  Examples may include a small lawn ornament, a flag other than US flag (something cheap), a cheap, temporary experimental antenna and anything that can be easily taken down or removed that can be used in a less conspicuous location.

I would ask permission first when I want to install something that requires significant cost or effort to install or remove. A highly visible tall vertical antenna, a dipole visible to other neighbors or from the street that can't be used anywhere else less visible on your property.

I would not do either (anything that requires asking for forgiveness or permission) whenever I don't want to draw attention to my activity.  This applies especially when I want to keep what I do to be none of anyone else's business. In some communities, once the HOA or nosey neighbors are aware of your activity, some will be scrutinized or blamed for any type of interference they receive, whether caused by you or by something a mile away.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: N5CM on October 15, 2022, 02:43:09 PM
I have a relative who has a fenced yard with an overhanging oak tree.  When I visit, I get near the fence, shoot (slingshot) parallel to the fence so that the line goes over the limb and falls in our yard.  I pull up my handy but fiddly end-fed random wire (AWG #14, black) antenna (9:1 transformer) and operate for a couple of days. Everything is in our yard, and the antenna is low profile.  Given that this relative lives near a bunch of salt water, I've had pretty good luck operating portable this way.

Small diameter wire with a small insulator may not even be noticed, especially for  evening and night operations.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: AI5BC on October 16, 2022, 12:20:27 PM
I would say go for it, he probably won’t even notice it. If he says anything I would just take it down and go to plan B.
Spoken like a true-blue ham. Total lack of respect for personal property, safety, etiquette, and basic operating principles. i would have your but in court and turn you code enforcement agency to teach you a lesson. You give hams a really bad well-earned reputation.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 16, 2022, 08:54:57 PM
YOU SHOULD not leave your tree grow into my airspace
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: WA3SKN on October 23, 2022, 09:42:10 AM
I say just put up one of those metal and plastic cell phone "tree towers" in the back yard.  If the HOA questions it you say "It just grew overnight!" !

-Mike.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 23, 2022, 10:05:55 AM
I would say go for it, he probably won’t even notice it. If he says anything I would just take it down and go to plan B.
Spoken like a true-blue ham. Total lack of respect for personal property, safety, etiquette, and basic operating principles. i would have your but in court and turn you code enforcement agency to teach you a lesson. You give hams a really bad well-earned reputation.

wow, you must be a wonderful man...perfect in all ways
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 23, 2022, 12:51:27 PM
Part of being stealth in an HOA is not
bringing excess attention or triggering your neighbors by doing things that are too different or questionable.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: AI5BC on October 23, 2022, 05:43:36 PM
Part of being stealth in an HOA is not
bringing excess attention or triggering your neighbors by doing things that are too different or questionable.
Again spoken like a true ham. A blatant disregard to rules, and a threat to public safety. Being a professional engineer i pride myself in putting hams in their place. I have shut down many hams in HOA's and I have both this website and QRZ to prove the point. For example, if you live in an area where there are electrical codes and code enforcement, I can shut any ham down with a vertical monopole. There is not a single one of them that can meet codes. Easy to prove the operator has a complete disregard of public safety. You erect an antenna with exposed live dangerous voltages without any barriers or warning signs. Hams go out of their way to conceal who they are. Very easy to prove. There are dozens of companies who make stealth antennas to intentionally violate all known basic safety practices. Go to QRZ and this website to seek advice how to do it. In fact, QRZ has been named in lawsuits, and the owner is so paranoid he no longer allows the public to view the conspiracy he takes part in. 

Just look at all the conspirators in this thread and hundreds more just like it. The owner of this site openly encourages violating all safety and electrical codes with a sticky    It's unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like.. When i find a stealth antenna, I make all the neighbors aware of the danger and report them to authorities. So, keep it up guys, you make it easy.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on October 23, 2022, 06:29:04 PM
Part of being stealth in an HOA is not
bringing excess attention or triggering your neighbors by doing things that are too different or questionable.
Again spoken like a true ham. A blatant disregard to rules, and a threat to public safety. Being a professional engineer...
Wow.  Being a professional engineer, you lost focus of who wrote what.

I am the one who did NOT take the advice of others to hang a wire on a neighbor's tree.  I promote not giving others an excuse to take offense, including engineers who apparently live for being out to get others based on their own misinterpretations and erroneous assumptions.  Your comments are on the edge of slander.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: N7NIT on October 26, 2022, 05:33:29 AM
AI5BC: 

I was a bit surprised to see your hostility in this thread.  I figured you might have just been having a bad day.  So, out of curiosity, I read back through some of your posts.  Looks like you have just under 200 posts on Eham.  I was only able to get through maybe a dozen before shaking my head and closing the page.  Of the posts I read, only one contained any real attempt to share knowledge--but unfortunately your arrogance and condescension just made it impossible for me to care what you were trying to share.

You might want to dial back the attitude of superiority a bit if you want to actually have people listen to you.  When I was much younger an uncle of mine gave me some good advice about working with others:  "It doesn't matter how smart you are or how good you are at something if people don't like you."   You should consider that advice.


Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 26, 2022, 07:40:10 AM
Part of being stealth in an HOA is not
bringing excess attention or triggering your neighbors by doing things that are too different or questionable.
Again spoken like a true ham. A blatant disregard to rules, and a threat to public safety. Being a professional engineer i pride myself in putting hams in their place. I have shut down many hams in HOA's and I have both this website and QRZ to prove the point. For example, if you live in an area where there are electrical codes and code enforcement, I can shut any ham down with a vertical monopole. There is not a single one of them that can meet codes. Easy to prove the operator has a complete disregard of public safety. You erect an antenna with exposed live dangerous voltages without any barriers or warning signs. Hams go out of their way to conceal who they are. Very easy to prove. There are dozens of companies who make stealth antennas to intentionally violate all known basic safety practices. Go to QRZ and this website to seek advice how to do it. In fact, QRZ has been named in lawsuits, and the owner is so paranoid he no longer allows the public to view the conspiracy he takes part in. 

Just look at all the conspirators in this thread and hundreds more just like it. The owner of this site openly encourages violating all safety and electrical codes with a sticky    It's unhelpful to tell people to avoid HOAs and the like.. When i find a stealth antenna, I make all the neighbors aware of the danger and report them to authorities. So, keep it up guys, you make it easy.

wow what a wonderful man, amazing
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on October 26, 2022, 12:07:10 PM
I would say go for it, he probably won’t even notice it. If he says anything I would just take it down and go to plan B.
Spoken like a true-blue ham. Total lack of respect for personal property, safety, etiquette, and basic operating principles. i would have your but in court and turn you code enforcement agency to teach you a lesson. You give hams a really bad well-earned reputation.

Likewise.  This attitude is just about the same as his.

As such, it typically lands the guy in the dentists office getting his teeth fixed.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI


Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on October 26, 2022, 12:09:02 PM
AI5BC: 

I was a bit surprised to see your hostility in this thread.  I figured you might have just been having a bad day.  So, out of curiosity, I read back through some of your posts.  Looks like you have just under 200 posts on Eham.  I was only able to get through maybe a dozen before shaking my head and closing the page.  Of the posts I read, only one contained any real attempt to share knowledge--but unfortunately your arrogance and condescension just made it impossible for me to care what you were trying to share.

You might want to dial back the attitude of superiority a bit if you want to actually have people listen to you.  When I was much younger an uncle of mine gave me some good advice about working with others:  "It doesn't matter how smart you are or how good you are at something if people don't like you."   You should consider that advice.

I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: AI5BC on October 28, 2022, 11:02:55 AM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.

 
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 28, 2022, 11:45:20 AM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

lets all get together and list all known problems from these terrible uses of trees...
me none, using forever.
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on October 28, 2022, 11:47:06 AM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.

Article 225 applies to "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" et al. It does not apply to antennas.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on October 28, 2022, 11:47:35 AM
oops.

lets all get together and list all known problems from these terrible uses of trees...
me none, using forever. since i was licensed, mainly trees
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on October 28, 2022, 12:45:02 PM
oops.

lets all get together and list all known problems from these terrible uses of trees...
me none, using forever. since i was licensed, mainly trees

Don't worry about it. The code reference to trees and antennas was wrong. Carry on.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on October 28, 2022, 12:52:19 PM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.

Table 810.16 is an incorrect reference as well. The correct table is 810.52 for an amateur radio station. But the point is well taken that these conductor size requirements are often ignored.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: AI5BC on October 28, 2022, 01:02:16 PM

Article 225 applies to "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" et al. It does not apply to antennas.

- Glenn W9IQ
Someone has a problem with reading comprehension and does not know what a conductor span is. Again, blatant disregard to electrical codes and safety.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on October 28, 2022, 01:08:16 PM

Article 225 applies to "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" et al. It does not apply to antennas.

- Glenn W9IQ
Someone has a problem with reading comprehension and does not know what a conductor span is. Again, blatant disregard to electrical codes and safety.

You may wish to gain a fuller understanding regarding the structure of the code. In particular, read 90.3 Code Arrangement. It contains this pertinent statement:

Quote
Chapter 8 covers communication systems and is not subject to the requirements of Chapters 1 through 7 except where the requirements are specifically referenced in Chapter 8.

If you would like, I can share my cross reference map from chapter 8 - 225.26 is not referenced.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on November 01, 2022, 04:46:14 AM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.

That is for support of overhead conductors.  Specifically branch circuits.

To Wit:

"In Article 225.26, the NEC states:
Vegetation such as trees SHALL NOT be used for support of Overhead Conductor Spans.
(exception: For temporary wiring in accordance with Article 305)"

Antennas are NOT covered by that article in NEC.  They are covered in article 230, as well as more in depth in article 810.

"Only power service-drop or overhead service conductors shall be permitted to be attached to a service mast. Service masts used for the support of service-drop or overhead service conductors shall be installed in accordance with 230.28(A) and (B)."

810.21 states that if you use a metallic support for the antenna, it must be grounded.

"Ground outdoor masts (and metal structures that support antennas) in accordance with 810.21 [810.15]."

Failing to see any of these that support your theory.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on November 01, 2022, 04:54:49 AM

Article 225 applies to "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" et al. It does not apply to antennas.

- Glenn W9IQ
Someone has a problem with reading comprehension and does not know what a conductor span is. Again, blatant disregard to electrical codes and safety.

You are correct in that someone doesn't understand what a branch circuit or an overhead conductor span is.

I suggest you look up branch circuit.  Since that is what the code is referencing with regards to what you posted.  Which has nothing to do with either a transmitting or receiving antenna (of which NEC does NOT differentiate).

I'm still waiting for you to show us something, anything, from article 810 that says we cannot use a tree as a support.

You are correct in table 810.16 states an aluminum alloy, hard drawn copper, copperweld type wire, etc.

Everything else you purport as code is just jibberish.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W1VT on November 01, 2022, 05:41:35 AM
One of the fundamental concepts of antenna safety is keeping electrical conductors and antennas separated from each other.

Fatalities or deaths often result when antennas accidently come in contact with electrical wires.

This  is also the greatest danger of model rocketry.  People coming into contact with electrical wires attempting to retrieve their model rockets.
I've been to a very popular rocket site near Boston.  They have professionals show up at the end of the rocket launch to retrieve any models that get caught on the overhead power lines.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KK4GMU on November 01, 2022, 05:51:22 AM
There are a few HOAs that mis-apply, mistakenly apply, over apply, or wrongly apply their codes, or fail to apply common sense, and have toxic personalities. 

I've recently been reminded that a similar fate can befall the occasional, although rare, individual in the technical professions.

The primary purpose of the vast majority of HOAs is aesthetics control, with some also concerned with wind load.  Most anything else is under the domain of the homeowner.  Even most building codes ignore any improvement by the homeowner valued under several hundred dollars.

Sure, dumb and dangerous things can be done.  But thank goodness there isn't an overbearing "you'll-shoot-your-eye-out" mother hanging over our every move and we can still exercise discretion and common sense.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on November 01, 2022, 06:08:50 AM
Antennas are NOT covered by that article in NEC.  They are covered in article 230, as well as more in depth in article 810.

Some minor polishing of this, Shane.

Amateur radio antennas are covered in Chapter 8. No other section of the code applies unless so stated in the applicable sub section of chapter 8 or its references. So don't read something in chapters 1 through 7 and assume it applies to amateur radio antennas. To be specific, article 230 is not referenced by the applicable sections of chapter 8 so it does not apply to the amateur radio antenna system. It will apply only to the mains power supplying the station.

There are differences in chapter 8 between a receive antenna (part 2) and an amateur radio antenna (part 3). The wire gauge chart should be 810.52 from part 3 when dealing with an amateur radio antenna. The 810.16 chart applies only to receiving antennas.

I do agree that any notion that you cannot use a tree as an amateur radio antenna support is completely bogus. Chapter 8 and its references do not exclude this possibility.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on November 02, 2022, 12:42:48 PM
I'd like to see what NEC codes you're violating hanging wires for antennas in trees.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Good question Shane but no one here wants to hear or see it.

225.26 Vegetation as Support.
Vegetation such as trees shall not be used for support of overhead conductor spans.

In addition, unless you bought a commercial antenna or know what wire type and size can be used, very few hams comply with Table 810.16 requiring hard drawn copper or copper clad steel wire. Most hams use house wire or soft drawn copper.

Article 225 applies to "Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders" et al. It does not apply to antennas.

- Glenn W9IQ
I already pointed that out to him.

He's not concerning himself with facts, intent or actual rules.

Just what he wants to interpret them as.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD6VXI on November 02, 2022, 12:50:17 PM
Antennas are NOT covered by that article in NEC.  They are covered in article 230, as well as more in depth in article 810.

Some minor polishing of this, Shane.

Amateur radio antennas are covered in Chapter 8. No other section of the code applies unless so stated in the applicable sub section of chapter 8 or its references. So don't read something in chapters 1 through 7 and assume it applies to amateur radio antennas. To be specific, article 230 is not referenced by the applicable sections of chapter 8 so it does not apply to the amateur radio antenna system. It will apply only to the mains power supplying the station.

There are differences in chapter 8 between a receive antenna (part 2) and an amateur radio antenna (part 3). The wire gauge chart should be 810.52 from part 3 when dealing with an amateur radio antenna. The 810.16 chart applies only to receiving antennas.

I do agree that any notion that you cannot use a tree as an amateur radio antenna support is completely bogus. Chapter 8 and its references do not exclude this possibility.

- Glenn W9IQ

Agreed.  With the stipulation that it always goes back to the authority having jurisdiction.

I fought an authority once.  Said my grounding system wasn't good enough for a service entrance.  Went round and round with the local inspector.

Turns out, he approved a ground system that was outside of typical, on a commercial shopping mall.  When it caught on fire, it was his ass in a sling.

His response to me was, "You know what, you're probably right.  Matter of fact, I'll give it to you that you're right.  However, to get me to see it your way professionaly you will require getting the UL book.  To do this, you must become a member.  To become a member, it's 10K dollars."

"Do you think your boss is going to back you, or tell you to rip this out and do it the way I'm telling you to do it".

I ended up installing the ground system he wanted.

I used article 250 for the support issue, as it showed areas you could not use as a support, for anything, other than the service entrance.

No matter what article 8 says, section 250 will be cited by an inspector in the know.  Because I've never found an inspector that understood article 8.  Even when working on a shortwave facility and at various AM and FM stations in California.

They just took your word.


--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9IQ on November 02, 2022, 03:38:32 PM
So true, Shane. NEC makes good reading but the AHJ rules - AKA don't piss off the judge and jury.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K6JH on November 02, 2022, 05:44:07 PM
So true, Shane. NEC makes good reading but the AHJ rules - AKA don't piss off the judge and jury.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: K3ZD on November 10, 2022, 10:56:36 AM
I live in a typical neighborhood with antenna rules but put up a random length end fed stealth wire from a small tree along side my shack window to bigger tree in the front yard and no one has said anything.  Either they can't see it or don't care.  If they do I'll just take it down. 
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: N5PNZ on November 25, 2022, 06:50:32 AM
Neighbors are not legally responsible for their 60 foot Sycamore tree roots destroying my driveway and cracking the house foundation, so I used the limbs that cross 20+ feet over my driveway to support wire antennas.  When the trees started to affect their buildings they cut them down.

Notice:  While they do make good antenna supports, if a neighbor plants a Sycamore within 20 feet of any of your structures or plumbing.....time to move.
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: W9WQA on November 25, 2022, 07:31:53 AM
Neighbors are not legally responsible for their 60 foot Sycamore tree roots destroying my driveway and cracking the house foundation, so I used the limbs that cross 20+ feet over my driveway to support wire antennas.  When the trees started to affect their buildings they cut them down.

Notice:  While they do make good antenna supports, if a neighbor plants a Sycamore within 20 feet of any of your structures or plumbing.....time to move.

think id dig a trench on my property and chop roots off
Title: Re: Using tree branch overhanging my property
Post by: KD3Y on November 27, 2022, 03:14:55 PM

Someone has a problem with reading comprehension and does not know what a conductor span is. Again, blatant disregard to electrical codes and safety.

Dangit!  Grannys wire clothes line is violating the NEC.  I say throw the old biddie in the slammer!

And them out door Christmas trees with "conductor spans" wrapped around them getcha lethal injection in most jurisdictions.  :)