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eHam Forums => RFI / EMI => Topic started by: N1AUP on December 11, 2022, 03:29:01 PM

Title: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: N1AUP on December 11, 2022, 03:29:01 PM
https://dnyuz.com/2022/12/10/in-a-future-filled-with-electric-cars-am-radio-may-be-left-behind/

Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K4QE on December 11, 2022, 04:05:47 PM
I wholeheartedly support AM radio, but this is not a fight in which the ARRL should expend valuable resources.  They should remain focused on issues directly related to ham radio.

There are elected officials already speaking out about the need to keep AM radio viable for all Americans.

73, Tony K4QE
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: AF5CC on December 11, 2022, 04:53:44 PM
If the electric cars are interfering with AM radio that badly, think what it will do to our reception on the low bands as well.  Definitely a fight the ARRL should take up!

73 John AF5CC
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K1VSK on December 11, 2022, 05:28:38 PM
Does anyone still listen to AM radio?
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K6SDW on December 11, 2022, 05:32:56 PM
Does anyone still listen to AM radio?

Nope and neither do I listen to FM radio unless you like wall to wall commericals with someone screaming at ya... it's satellite radio all the way here and less than $10/month for a popular provider! And its only programming I like and no one pushing crap I don't need.

I use to run HF mobile, but FT8 changed that paradigm.

GL/73
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: KF4HR on December 11, 2022, 05:51:27 PM
Assuming EV's really are interfering with AM broadcasting, sounds like an issue for the FCC, not the ARRL.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K1VSK on December 11, 2022, 06:09:28 PM
Assuming EV's really are interfering with AM broadcasting, sounds like an issue for the FCC, not the ARRL.
Given the FCC is part of our government, they will surely tackle this problem effectively…

I suspect most people listen only to FM and then only when their Sirius or Apple membership lapses.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: W7XTV on December 11, 2022, 06:50:59 PM
Assuming EV's really are interfering with AM broadcasting, sounds like an issue for the FCC, not the ARRL.

I don't own an EV, so I have no first-hand knowledge of problems with their internal Ancient Modulation radios.  However, when driving directly next to or behind an EV, I hear no interference whatsoever.  They must be shielded well enough to prevent it.

The ARRL needs to stay out of this one, as it's no concern for us hams.  The FCC will do as they're told by Congress.  But really, how many folks younger than 65 listen to AM in the first place, other than for sports?  My guess is somewhere barely north of None.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K9RJ on December 11, 2022, 07:55:59 PM
I often listen to AM and Fm when driving. When driving far away from urban areas,  I frequently listen to AM for sports. It would be nice to keep it.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: AE8GS on December 11, 2022, 09:16:32 PM
I have an EV (Chevy Bolt) with an AM/FM radio. I use AM from time to time with no noticeable issue. As hams know, EMI can cause all kinds of issue with electronic devices, beyond radio interference, so I expect EMI mitigation is designed in from the start.

I think eliminating AM might just be a cost savings, and the antenna might be one of the bigger issues.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: KH6AQ on December 11, 2022, 09:26:24 PM
Vehicles already are designed and built to meet several EMC standards.

Automotive Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) Test Standards    https://learnemc.com/automotive-emc-test-standards
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: SWMAN on December 12, 2022, 03:10:13 AM
 Hopefully they will not get rid of AM. I listen every day. That is the only way I get my local and recent news. That’s also how I get my weather broadcasts. I don’t watch the news on TV.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K4JJL on December 12, 2022, 06:51:25 AM
The powerlines in my area make more noise than the electric cars.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K4GTE on December 12, 2022, 07:01:21 AM
AM broadcast is not an ARRL issue. It's an FCC issue. It does not affect amateur radio operations.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: W7XTV on December 12, 2022, 08:05:05 AM
Hopefully they will not get rid of AM. I listen every day. That is the only way I get my local and recent news. That’s also how I get my weather broadcasts. I don’t watch the news on TV.

AM as an allocation isn't going anywhere, but I'm willing to bet that close to half of all existing AM stations will go off the air in the next 10 years.  The shutdown is already starting, and has been going on in Canada and Mexico for years.  The main reason is that even the big 50 kW blowtorches have become unprofitable without an FM counterpart.  Also, at least in large metro areas, the land the towers sit on is worth more than the station itself.  That is not a good combination.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: N4UFO on December 12, 2022, 09:36:29 AM
Does anyone still listen to AM radio?

Right in the article... About 47 million Americans listen to AM radio, representing about 20 percent of the radio-listening public, according to the Nielsen Company, the media tracking firm.

A LOT of talk shows on AM since no one needs to hear them blab in stereo...  ;)
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: WA3SKN on December 12, 2022, 10:54:27 AM
The ARRL does not control this.
The FCC does.  And Congress controls the FCC.
So you should make your concerns known to both.

-Mike.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: KF6QEX on December 12, 2022, 01:37:06 PM
The ARRL does not control this.
The FCC does.  And Congress controls the FCC.
So you should make your concerns known to both.

-Mike.

The FCC may have some control on how much interference a car can produce before it can step in an "suggest" corrective action.
If we judge by the fact that you can tell when you are driving by a starbucks by the amount of interference on both AM and FM bands the FCC may not do much.
The FCC has no control of what a car manufacturer decides to "amputate" from a production car.
There is also a good chance manufacturers may have their decisions "influenced" by satellite audio streaming providers.

As far as TESLA is concerned, if the car already has an internet connection, OTA reception becomes secondary and they may get to charge a couple of bucks extra for using this connection to stream "radio".

It's 2022 and having that huge LCD screen in the car is screaming to be the display and control for an all band all mode HAM Radio, if only there was a way to tap into it!

On the positive side, if the AM broadcast band is no longer used for public broadcasting, can we have it ? 

Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: WA3SKN on December 14, 2022, 10:11:07 AM
Automobiles are exempt from FCC Part 15 regulations.  Now, should they be?

-Mike.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: N7EKU on December 14, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
I have an EV (Chevy Bolt) with an AM/FM radio. I use AM from time to time with no noticeable issue. As hams know, EMI can cause all kinds of issue with electronic devices, beyond radio interference, so I expect EMI mitigation is designed in from the start.

I think eliminating AM might just be a cost savings, and the antenna might be one of the bigger issues.

Hi,

Yes, current EV's and Hybrids are OK because they have to meet current regulations.  From the recent news I've read, what the auto manufacturers want to do is remove the AM radios so that they don't have to spend $$/time keeping the autos clean.  It's not really about AM radio, it's about generated noise.

It doesn't seem like a good thing to me.  I imagine it would mean more noise in the neighborhood around one's residence and no HF operation in the car.

Note about regulations I found:

Quote

Car and aircraft manufacturers have extensive industry standards and company specifications for EMC/EMI. For cars these standards include CISPR 25 and SAE J1113. Aircraft have RTCA DO-160 and MIL-STD-461. These are in many ways much stricter than FCC Part 15 and are required for safety certifications, such as by the FAA or the European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) process.

The issue is that vehicles are safety critical. As one engineer who works in the field told me, people will drive up to broadcast towers. You cannot have the engine computer sensors misread and cause the engine to explode. As a result, they drive cars into anechoic chambers and use kilowatt transmitters to test them. Likewise airplanes get struck by lightning on a regular basis and must continue to operate normally.

Typically, if you shield your systems against this energy going in, you will prevent radiation at the same time. On the other hand, consumer devices rarely have legislated immunity requirements, everybody remembers speakers picking up TDMA cell phones.

Car manufacturers will even have standards on how good their radio should work, for customer satisfaction. One of the issues I heard about was that Qi wireless charging pads have the potential to interfere with AM reception, which is why they're often stuck deep in the console.

In sum, the vehicle industry has adequate self-regulation for safety, so the FCC doesn't need to worry.


73
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: K7NI on December 15, 2022, 07:41:05 PM
As stated , vehicles are exempt from FCC Part 15 limits. CISPR 25 only has limits in certain bands. It has no limit at all in most ham bands. ECE Regulation 10 limits start at 30 MHz. So for HF mobile you are pretty much SOL. Most vehicle manufacturers have their own limits that are usually based on some modification of CISPR 25 limits.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: AI5BC on December 15, 2022, 08:16:16 PM
Does anyone still listen to AM radio?
Very few and the list gets smaller every day. AM broadcast stations numbers have fallen drastically in the last 40 years. Not only commercial AM but Short Wave is all but gone. WTWW just shut down last month. There is no more commercial interest in HF. Not enough bandwidth limited to voice with poor voice quality and some telemetry applications. At best a backup to the backup systems. Since there is no commercial interest or many users, FCC has no interest running down interference issues.

The second half is the Green Mafia movement, All those EV's, home Solar Systems, wind and solar farms get a free pass and nothing you can do about it. FCC controls the airwaves, Congress controls the FCC, and the Green Mafia controls Congress.
Title: Re: I hope the ARRL is on this, like flies on horse manure.
Post by: AA5TB on February 07, 2023, 01:56:02 PM
Both my 2015 Nissan LEAF and 2021 Chevy Bolt EVs have no detectable RFI, from HF to UHF. The Broadcast AM radios receive fine in both. As others have mentioned, if RFI suppression is done during design it is very effective. If not, it is much more difficult to fix after the manufacture.

73,
Steve - AA5TB