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eHam Forums => Station Building => Topic started by: K4BDA on December 13, 2022, 02:43:03 PM

Title: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K4BDA on December 13, 2022, 02:43:03 PM
I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?
And, I doubt Yaesu will even  service it anymore so if something goes wrong...
Your stuck hoping you can find someone to work on it... and hopefully get it working right  again.
(There are guys who can do this but finding the right one can be tricky.)

For near that price I have a choice of some very fine brand new radio's... Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood,  etc... all  feature rich with all the new technology in them.

Same goes for other older radio's. They all seem way overpriced to me.
I guess everyone is trying to get "retail" for their radio instead of some quick cash.
Maybe they are hoping for a "newbie"  or a collector or someone who wants to buy their favorite old radio...
or someone looking to save a couple hundred bucks and take the chance on the older rig.

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.



Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: W3PX on December 13, 2022, 03:23:59 PM
A used FT-1000MP can have a pretty good range of value depending on which options (TCXO for instance) and/or additional filters are installed. You need to take that into account when deciding if the asking price seems fair for you.

Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: KD7RDZI2 on December 13, 2022, 03:33:10 PM
As long as there is someone willing to pay high prices, prices will remain that high. But, they will fall sooner or later. The number of used  rigs on the market will increase for... demographic reasons... This will create an excess in supply while demand will shrink... and there will be plenty of used rigs for the ultimate ham operator ;D
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: W6MK on December 13, 2022, 03:43:58 PM
I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

Nothing particularly crazy about pricing of used things of any sort. Think of classic cars or musical instruments.

Design and construction of some older things is not at all available in more recent products.

Much of the production of older radios will not have survived a couple of decades due to poor treatment and lack of maintenance. Thus the total availability of older radios in pristine, and very usable, condition will not necessarily be great.

Yes radio technology in some performance areas has improved but in many areas older technology had and still has great value.

Current transceivers, for example, sport very complex front panels and many-layered menus. Older designs were more often elegant and quite beautiful and a real joy to operate without having constantly to refer to a manual.

As with classic cars, musical instruments, houses, and even people.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: W1VT on December 13, 2022, 04:04:07 PM
Ham radios are sufficiently complex that it takes study and practice to use them effectively.
With worldwide spotting networks a few minutes can make the difference between easily working the rare DX and having to grind through a huge pileup.

Someone who is an expert on a particular radio may find it more cost effective to buy a replacement than to "upgrade" to a more modern radio due to the cost of learning the new one.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K1VSK on December 13, 2022, 06:17:00 PM
Occam’s razor - everything is more expensive including parts if you can find them to fix older stuff.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: KA4WJA on December 13, 2022, 07:01:41 PM
Bill,
I'm sure you'll find a rig that suits your needs / your application...at whatever your budget is.
But, if you don't mind, I'd like to help you (and others) a bit here, with some polite clarifications?

Not the least of which, you'll need to define your specific needs / applications (no need to tell me....but you should detail these for yourself, before you spend your $$$$) and then look for a radio that meets those needs.
(of course, we just got done discussing the old 90/10 or 80/20 rule....where you should spend 80% - 90% of your ham budget on "antennas", antenna system, etc....and only 10% - 20% on the radio....so, I'll not ramble on about that here!  If you care to delve into all of that, have a look...see some links below for details on these...)


1)  So,...We all know the "value" of anything is what someone (or many someone's ?) is willing to pay for it....or what they are willing to part with, in order to acquire it....

So, if the price being asked is higher than you think it should be, you can always offer less....you just never know, maybe you'll pick up a good rig for a good price.  :)

And, while generically, I agree that some older rigs are overpriced....but, some are damned bargains!  It just depends on what rigs, how "old" is old, and what condition the rig is in!  :)

I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?
And, I doubt Yaesu will even  service it anymore so if something goes wrong...

<snip>

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

2)  Now, in this case....the old venerable FT-1000MP was a top-of-the-line rig, and in it's day (and still, even today) was a much loved and respected rig....and back 20+ years ago commanded a rather steep retail price new.

The original FT-1000MP came out in late '95 (?), and depending on how equipped, was priced (MSRP) from $3600 to $4200 (most were fully tricked-out at $4200 MSRP.....with a street price of ~ $3500, in 1996, which in today's 2022 dollars would be a street price of ~ $6600.)

Now, if this particular FT-1000MP that you're referring to is the FT-1000MP MkV (very well respected and quite sought after radio), in the year 2000 it had a MSRP of $4200, and a "street price" of ~ $3400 - $3500....which in today's 2022 dollars would be a street price of ~ $5900 - $6000.....and, since it is not only a rarer radio, it also holds it own quite well on-the-air, it does command a rather high used price.

So, asking $1150 is not really "asking retail", it's actually fairly reasonable (in my opinion, maybe a bit on the "high end" of reasonable, but still not "current retail")....unless you're trying to compare apples to oranges and/or trying to base the value of a ~ 20 year old top-of-the-line radio, on what the current entry-level rig costs along with its expected depreciation over the next 20 some years, 'cuz then you might think that a ~ 20 year old radio should be worth what?

$1150 is about one-third of the actual original dollar price....but is < 20% of the original price times the inflation....so, what is a reasonable value versus new?

Ah, that's the $64,000 question isn't it?

And, here we come back to the original premise ---- that the value of something is actually based on what someone is willing to pay for it, yes?

Perhaps download and read the ARRL Product Reviews of these rigs, and then do the same for some of the more "modern" rigs that might strike your fancy.....(then, if you have extra time, do the same, looking at eham reviews, etc....but take them with many grains of salt!)

And, you might see that there is not only a lot of life left in some of these older rigs, but also they might just perform better than many similarly-priced new "modern" radios.  :) 
{first things that comes to mind are the crappy ALC systems in some "modern" rigs....of course, there is always the "watery" DSP NR, etc...and in many cases, sometimes useless noise blankers, etc. of some "modern" rigs compared to some "classics"...of course, anyone out in the country with neighbors with electric fences will gladly trade one of the "modern" rigs with rec AGC issues (AGC activating on the noise pulses of the electric fence chargers) for a 20+ year old FT-1000MP!, in a heart beat...}
Just reminding everyone that while "new", "modern", "high-tech", DSP, SDR, etc. are nice in some cases....in other cases they aren't what gets the job done...


3)  While I personally am not interested in a '1000MP....but a MkV would be nice (and, if I found a nice clean one at a low enough price, I'd snap it up in a second).....and, while would not pay ~ > $1100 for a MkV, some would do so....and, hence the reason that some are asking what they are.

And, since there are fewer and fewer rigs with Class A transmitters still alive and working well, I suspect that MkV's will actually start going up in price (appreciate a bit).....[I could be completely wrong about this last comment....just me rambling...]



4)  Finally, Bill (K4BDA) I might be reading too much into your posting / query here (if so, just ignore this last point of mine here), but I seem to infer a somewhat negative impression you have for a "radio is 20 years old or more"? 
If so, I'm wondering what application you may have that an FT-1000MP is unsuited for?
(I suppose if you were a serious 160m CW contester, you'd want a better receiver....but, that's gonna' cost you more than $1100, too...)

And, further, while some older radios do have some issues as they age...I'd take a 20+ year old FT-1000MP MkV (even at ~ $1100) any day of the week over some of the "modern" HF rigs on the market today...and, there are many folks out there that can service a '1000MP much better than Yaesu.  :)

{heck, there are some of today's radios that I wouldn't take if you gave them to me, for free....but, that's a whole 'nother discussion....:) }


Anyway, I do hope my pointing out the performance of the ole' venerable '1000MP (and the better performance of the '1000MP MkV, along with its Class A transmit capability), and the costs of these radios, etc., helps you out.....

But, perhaps the most important thing I'd like to highlight is that like in many areas of life ---- doing the homework / research (look at the scientific product reviews, etc....and understand what the specs the manufacturer and reviewer are quoting, actually mean) is pretty darn important!   
'Cuz there is a lot more to this (an FT-1000MP) than just a 20+ year old radio.  :)

Maybe just have a read through of the discussion here on "Station Building"....there is a LOT here, but many have learned a lot from it:
https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1194749.html#msg1194749

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1195427.html#msg1195427

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1227431.html#msg1227431

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1221132.html#msg1221132

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,128776.msg1275560.html#msg1275560


And, if looking for some more discussion on HF Radio Suggestions....have a look here:
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/#post-6366728
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-3#post-6367308
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-3#post-6367343
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-6#post-6378709
https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/hf-radio-suggestions.839022/page-6#post-6378219


73,
John,  KA4WJA
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: AF5CC on December 13, 2022, 07:09:17 PM
In terms of the FT1000MP MK5 for $1150, how many new radios on the market do 200 watts and dual receive like it does?  The ones that do will cost you 3 times that 1150 or more, so if those features are important to you, that isn't a bad deal.  The only used radio with 200 watts and dual receive that you might find for less is the Yaesu FT1000D but those are 10 years older and don't have DSP or a memory keyer.  The Icom 775 goes for more than $1150 and it doesn't do dual receive as well.

73 John AF5CC
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: WN4V on December 13, 2022, 11:42:44 PM
I have given up on finding what I would consider reasonably priced used HF transceivers, whatever the make or model. I accept the fact that certain equipment lines, e.g., Collins S-Line have held their value over the years, but others should not command outlandish prices....As an example, I recently saw a classified ad for a Heathkit HW-8 QRP transceiver and the asking price was $200.00 ! Another example - An ancient Heathkit VF-1 VFO for $125.00 and an Ameco AC-1 (15 watts & rock-bound) for $160.00, and on and on ad infinitum ad nauseum. Enough. Whatever the traffic will bear, particularly for collectors. I have decided to source any HF gear I might purchase in the future from Amazon or RF Signals in India and other sources that will not ask for prices in line with outlandish prices for 25-30+ year old tube gear. I am retired and I have priorities that I must take into consideration before I purchase any ham gear, and I dismiss the argument that "If you can't afford the gear, then you shouldn't be in Ham Radio." I purchased my VHF/UHF station and HT radios  from Amazon and I make no apologies for that. Oh, I have a Grundig G5 SWL receiver that I have seen listed for $300.00 but there is no way I would sell it for such an outlandish price. What would you call that ?
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: ZS5WC on December 14, 2022, 12:08:33 AM
 ;)Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I would rather pay a bit more for an older rig where I MIGHT have an outside chance of working on , than the new crop of SDRs.
Besides , Legacy rigs like the 1000mP are still superhet radios with analog filtering , IF loop noise blankers and just sounds nice to listen too.
None of that AGC pop you hear on modern current crop rigs.
I know I will be flamed for it, but put a new SDR next to an 1000mp or older rig, and tell me which audio you prefer. Sherwood numbers are only a small part of the overall picture.
Bigger , Heavier the better. I am an AWA member, so hence my steering towards older..
Current Projects: FT-2000 (dsp agc..not perfect), SX-28, KWM-2A, KWM-380, IC-765 (done)..etc.

73 de William, ZS4L / ZS5WC
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: KC0W on December 14, 2022, 01:27:23 AM
 Yaesu was/is fully aware of the nasty key-click problem inherent in ALL FT-1000xx series of radios. They could have fixed this problem for once & all for less than $1 in parts starting with the FT-1000D. The brain wizards in Yaesu's engineering team kept on pumping out FT-1000xx series after series with that horrendous key-click problem. Undoubtedly the worst time to be a CW contester/DXer was in the 1990s - 2000s due to the uneducated running their FT-1000xx with an amplifier on CW.

 Thank goodness these unmodified, long in the tooth FT-1000xx are now (hopefully) breaking down making repairing them cost prohibitive. If you want to give fellow DX'ers/contesters a blast from the past, just run your unmodified FT-1000xx on CW into an amplifier at 1.5kW..............They will love you for it!!!  :)         

                                                                                       Tom KH0/KC0W
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: N2SR on December 14, 2022, 02:41:24 AM
Yaesu was/is fully aware of the nasty key-click problem inherent in ALL FT-1000xx series of radios. They could have fixed this problem for once & all for less than $1 in parts starting with the FT-1000D. The brain wizards in Yaesu's engineering team kept on pumping out FT-1000xx series after series with that horrendous key-click problem. Undoubtedly the worst time to be a CW contester/DXer was in the 1990s - 2000s due to the uneducated running their FT-1000xx with an amplifier on CW.

 Thank goodness these unmodified, long in the tooth FT-1000xx are now (hopefully) breaking down making repairing them cost prohibitive. If you want to give fellow DX'ers/contesters a blast from the past, just run your unmodified FT-1000xx on CW into an amplifier at 1.5kW..............They will love you for it!!!  :)         

                                                                                       Tom KH0/KC0W

W2VJN and W8JI published mods and/or offered kits for the FT-1000 series radios that eliminated the key clicks. 

I don't know of any contester that did not make the mod.  In fact, I made the mod on my own radio (still have it), as well as others in my radio club. 

Tom, N2SR

Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: N2SR on December 14, 2022, 02:48:32 AM
I looked at a Yaesu FT-1000 MP rig online and the gentleman wants $1150 for it.

That seems high to me as the radio is 20 years old or more... right?


For near that price I have a choice of some very fine brand new radio's... Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood,  etc... all  feature rich with all the new technology in them.

Same goes for other older radio's. They all seem way overpriced to me.
I guess everyone is trying to get "retail" for their radio instead of some quick cash.
Maybe they are hoping for a "newbie"  or a collector or someone who wants to buy their favorite old radio...
or someone looking to save a couple hundred bucks and take the chance on the older rig.

Anyway, I guess I'm going new radio unless I run into a reasonably priced radio in good working order. I  mean, why not?

I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.

And what options does that 1000mp have?   

My backup radio is my 1000mp.  It is fully loaded with Inrad filters.  My radio has the roofing filter, a 2.4 kHz filter, 400 Hz, 250 Hz in each IF of the main receiver, as well as a 2.4 kHz and a 400 Hz filter in the sub receiver.   Feel free to add up the cost of all those filters. 

The 1000xx series was the top of the line contest radio in the  1990s and into the 2000s (until the K3 came out). 

They were not a 7300. 

Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 14, 2022, 06:28:49 AM
The bottom line: There’s a buyer for everything. There’s nothing wrong with a seller to start out high to see if someone will bite. It’s up to the buyer to decide if it’s the right price for him. Or if he decides to make a lower offer, and the seller is willing to accept it. The age old procedure of haggling, and if you don’t do it, you’re leaving money on the table…nothing new. Usually if an item is priced low from the beginning, the seller needs the cash fast.

In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: N2SR on December 14, 2022, 07:27:59 AM
In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).

I disagree. 

It depends if someone (or more than someone) is actually looking for an item. 

Offer up a pair of 3-500Zs for $150 each, and you have to wait until someone is in the market for a pair of 3-500Zs.  I don't own an amplifier with 3-500Zs, so why would I buy them "just to have them?"   

A few years ago, I was trying to sell an Icom SP-20 speaker.  Since the unit was in mint condition, I looked at ALL of the sale ads for that same speaker.  Prices ranged from $125 to $170.  I asked $150.  No offers.   I got lowballed for $120 and the guy wanted me to pay for shipping.  No thanks. 

Same with real estate.  Prices were high during the Chinese flu because buyers were looking for houses, but sellers who had planned to put the house up for sale decided to wait, for various reasons (didn't want strangers in the house, didn't want to look for a new house themselves, etc).  That drove the prices up, because there was less inventory.  If you need or want to move, then you pay the going price.  If not, then you also wait.  Now, prices are high because interest rates are high. 



Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 14, 2022, 11:16:08 AM
In the long run, if an item lingers too long for sale, it’s because it’s priced too high, and won’t sell until it’s eventually reduced to the “right” price. Especially true in real estate. If you see something you really want, either pony up the cash or make a lower offer. If the seller won’t budge, move on. No one’s twisting your arm ;).

I disagree. 

It depends if someone (or more than someone) is actually looking for an item. 

Offer up a pair of 3-500Zs for $150 each, and you have to wait until someone is in the market for a pair of 3-500Zs.  I don't own an amplifier with 3-500Zs, so why would I buy them "just to have them?"   

A few years ago, I was trying to sell an Icom SP-20 speaker.  Since the unit was in mint condition, I looked at ALL of the sale ads for that same speaker.  Prices ranged from $125 to $170.  I asked $150.  No offers.   I got lowballed for $120 and the guy wanted me to pay for shipping.  No thanks. 

Same with real estate.  Prices were high during the Chinese flu because buyers were looking for houses, but sellers who had planned to put the house up for sale decided to wait, for various reasons (didn't want strangers in the house, didn't want to look for a new house themselves, etc).  That drove the prices up, because there was less inventory.  If you need or want to move, then you pay the going price.  If not, then you also wait.  Now, prices are high because interest rates are high.

IMO, all that doesn't matter. The seller holds all the cards, and the buyer is basically at their mercy. It's strictly up to the seller as to how anxious he is to sell the item, and at what price he wants to let it go for. Your own example of the SP-20 speaker...you seemingly priced it within a logical used price, and received an offer you rejected. You still have it, and the proposed buyer doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the next caller will accept the terms, maybe not. It's all up to you how anxious you are to sell it, and how willing you are to adjust the price if necessary.

Complaining about used radio prices doesn't do any good. You are the only one to determine how bad you want something, and what you want to pay for it.

BTW, I don't agree with your real estate analogy... "prices are high because interest rates are high". Out here in the Phoenix, AZ area, in the last two years housing inventory was low, mortgage interest rates were low (3-4%), and prices abnormally skyrocketed because demand was high. Within days, a listing would receive multiple offers over asking price, and selling quickly thereafter. Realtors and new home builders were having a heyday, without working too hard. Now in the last six months or so inventory is still low, but with mortgage rates near 7% things have dramatically slowed down...houses are now sitting on the market, and sellers are dropping their asking prices back towards normalcy. Prospective buyers now can't afford the high prices along with high mortgage rates. Something has to give in order to get them back into the market. Maybe it's different where you live.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: N2SR on December 14, 2022, 12:44:59 PM
IMO, all that doesn't matter. The seller holds all the cards, and the buyer is basically at their mercy. It's strictly up to the seller as to how anxious he is to sell the item, and at what price he wants to let it go for. Your own example of the SP-20 speaker...you seemingly priced it within a logical used price, and received an offer you rejected. You still have it, and the proposed buyer doesn't. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe the next caller will accept the terms, maybe not. It's all up to you how anxious you are to sell it, and how willing you are to adjust the price if necessary.

Complaining about used radio prices doesn't do any good. You are the only one to determine how bad you want something, and what you want to pay for it.

I guess we agree - from different directions. 

I don't sell alot of items, but I'm slowly starting to clean up the inventory to get rid of stuff that I thought I would use but since they have been sitting for years, it's time to move them. 

IMO, as much as the buyer does his/her research, so should the seller.  Sell the item at around the going price.  I thought my price was fair, but I'm not going to give it away.  In the end, I would have accepted a fair offer, but that didn't happen. 

Another example.  Years ago, I sold a DXE remote antenna switch.  I bought it, but never used it.  It was NOS, and I advertised it as "never been outside, never had a PL-259 screwed onto any of the ports."  I set a price about $100 less than a brand new one from DXE.  Got an inquiry.  IIRC, I sent him additional pictures.  We agreed to split shipping.  After he received the unit, he called me and said, "it really does look like it's brand new."  I said, "I don't lie about stuff like that."   


BTW, I don't agree with your real estate analogy... "prices are high because interest rates are high". Out here in the Phoenix, AZ area, in the last two years housing inventory was low, mortgage interest rates were low (3-4%), and prices abnormally skyrocketed because demand was high. Within days, a listing would receive multiple offers over asking price, and selling quickly thereafter. Realtors and new home builders were having a heyday, without working too hard. Now in the last six months or so inventory is still low, but with mortgage rates near 7% things have dramatically slowed down...houses are now sitting on the market, and sellers are dropping their asking prices back towards normalcy. Prospective buyers now can't afford the high prices along with high mortgage rates. Something has to give in order to get them back into the market. Maybe it's different where you live.

Two years ago, my parents put their house up for sale.  It sold within 4 days.  They had 6 offers, and accepted the offer of $50,000 over list price.  Fortunately, they had built a house the year before, so there was no issue with materials, etc at the time. 

As I said, inventory was low because people did not want strangers in their house during the Chinese flu, and interest rates remained low. 

Now, with inflation, prices have gone up, because inventory is still low.  But houses sit in the market, because the number of qualified buyers has shrunk or the mortgage amounts that buyers are qualified for has gone down.  IE: the "amount" of house someone can buy has gone down because of inflation.  That is, because of inflation, the cost of the entire "deal," including the 20% down, closing costs, fees, etc has "gone up." 

The inventory could be the same as during, or even pre-Chinese flu.  But people cannot afford as much house as they could before.

Maybe we are also in agreement - from different directions.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 14, 2022, 02:22:28 PM
N2SR,

Yup, approaching the subjects from different angles, but basically agree on the same outcomes ;).

Buying used stuff is buyer beware. You are an ethical, truthful seller (as am I), but many are not. Personally, I limit buying anything used at $150 max. That way, if the product is misrepresented and the seller won't do anything to remedy it, my financial exposure/risk is basically nil, and I would just  chalk it up to a bad deal and not lose any sleep over it. Haven't been burned yet, but don't buy much used stuff anyway, just maybe an accessory or two. Big ticket purchases (radios, amplifiers) are always new, from reputable vendors with warranties.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K4BDA on December 14, 2022, 05:06:26 PM
Thanks for all the comments folks.

Regarding research, when I read the reviews here on eham.net I can't find any radio that doesn't get blasted by some. It ends up very confusing.

In the case of the Yeasu  FT-1000MP... some guy in this thread blasted all the Yeasu FT-1000xx's ... so I guess they are off the list...
unless I want to dig into the  radio and do a modification to fix the CW Key-Click issue he mentioned.

I'll settle on something sooner or later and live with the quirks if any. What I liked about the FT-1000mp was it looked like a full size radio... not a smaller size mobile rig like some of the modern radios are today. I may yield on that issue however. Time will tell.

Another of my wishes was to be able to connect it to my computer for display and control...
and maybe have a spectrum analyzer to see what is going on up and down the band...
even though I enjoy turning through the band hunting for signals.

And, it would be nice to find a rig that the manufacturer would still service... but I may waive that requirement depending on the radio.

Occasionally I find myself wishing for my original rig...
a Heathkit DX-20 50-watt CW rig with a hand full of crystals... and a Hallicrafters S-38D receiver.
I paid about $50 for the Heathkit and built it myself. I got the Hallicrafters receiver for $39 from the PX at Fort Jackson via a family friend.
Believe it or not I worked the world with that rig and some wire antenna's in the back yard.

Later built a screen grid modulator for the DX-20 and got on AM.
Still later I built a linear amplifier with a pair of 813's in the final... and lit up the night with my mercury vapor rectifier tubes.
Wonder I didn't kill my self. I was 15 or 16 at the time and having a blast :-)

Regardless, thanks again for all the comments folks!
73's
Will, K4BDA
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K6BRN on December 14, 2022, 06:41:11 PM
Will (K4BDA):

A good used MEDIUM sized radio for about $1K with IF and RX only outputs (for spectrum monitoring or 2nd receiver - I attach an RSP-1 SDR) is the Yaesu FTDX-3000. It has a built-in but small multimode audio/Rf waterfall/spectrum monitor.  The radio has a quiet receiver and excellent noise reduction, plus a built in sound card for running digital modes directly from your computer.  Sherwood doesn't like them too much, but most owners REALLY like them (never let me down in the last 6 years) - see the eham reviews:

https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=10736

and on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqnrzDS1hwE

Ham Radio Outlet has several used FTDX-3000s on sale right now - and they are returnable if you find a problem with them (i.e. broken)

In new radios, the Yaesu FTDX-10 is hard to beat, but it's much smaller.  Great performance, good waterfall display but not a lot of auxiliary outputs.

Then there's the very popular Icom IC-7300.  Small and basic but very intuitive to use, good performance with some limitations in noisy RF-rich environments.  Available new or used at or below $1K.  And well liked by the community.

You really have a lot of choices at the ~$1K price point.  Below that, options shift mostly to used radios, and you take your chances, as mentioned above.

Brian - K6BRN
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: N5ATM on December 14, 2022, 11:34:35 PM
Interesting thread and a very good question.  As with most things, everyone has their own opinion on the matter and I'm no different.  I have done a lot of "buying/selling" of used equipment over the years and owned most tiers of all brands of radios at one point or another until I finally decided which I liked best.  In addition to that is all the other misc and related ham shack gear and some classic/boat anchor stuff also.  Other than a couple of VHF radios, I have never purchased a brand new one, and regret that I purchased those.  I always look for used equipment as new gear is almost always just over priced IMO.  Add to that, I normally go with "top shelf/high end" gear and avoid the lower end and basement level (MFJ) stuff altogether.

All that being said, I have always found it interesting how the prices for older/used gear seems stay high, even as newer equipment that in many respects, far surpasses it.  I always do a lot of research before a purchase and watch the used market carefully before I pounce.  I'm trying to see the "range" of prices on a given item over a relatively close period of time.  Doing this I get the feel for what the "going" price is and also spot the low as well as the stupid high prices are.  I'm sure most of you do the same.

When I see sellers on the high to ridiculous high side, I figure some of a few of the following is going on.  Some of these are normal for almost all pricing, namely #5.  Not all of the list below are necessarily a bad thing.  Note: These are just my opinions and I could be completely wrong...your mileage my vary.  :)

1. They don't know what it's worth.
2. Are very attached to the item and think it's worth more than it actually is.
3. Just hoping for an unknowing (sucker) buyer.
4. They paid full or a high price when they purchased it and are determined to recoup, regardless of actual worth.
5. Adding in the "bargaining" price up front.  (Mark it high...the buyer counters...and hopefully they get what it was worth or more, to begin with.)
6. Just trying to screw someone because they might be able to. Different than #3.
7. Have in there head that the item is now a "classic" and worth more than it actually is.

Perfect Example:  Just a few minutes ago, before stumbling onto this thread, I saw a Yaesu FT-1000MP MK5, MD-100 desk mic, "asking price" $1650.00.  The mic is a nice inclusion but still the ask is HIGH and I just had to laugh.  And yes, I'm familiar with the radio and know all about it.  It was THE radio I wanted back when it was new but couldn't/wouldn't afford it. Last year, I did my normal due diligence, watch, wait and pounce routine.  I got mine for $750.00.  A fantastic price on the low end of the range.

Some gear IS classic, like a lot of the Collins gear, and some gear IS rare, so high prices in these instances is probably warranted.  However, the vast majority of older, regular gear, is in my opinion, overpriced in comparison to more modern/capable gear.  Of course, as long as people PAY high prices for gear, then people will continue to assume it's WORTH those prices.  If we didn't pay, the prices would start to go down to realistic prices.  Oh well, one can only hope.  :)

73
Vince N5ATM / HS0ZPQ
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: AI5BC on December 15, 2022, 06:07:33 AM
I'm  just trying  to understand this crazy pricing of used equipment.
Nothing to understand, hams overpay, and happy to do it. Just like the hobby itself, there are much better ways to communicate. Great way to make a lot of money. Pluck dem pigeons.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 15, 2022, 06:59:33 AM
K6BRN had some good comments about buying older radios vs new in regards to ease of interfacing to computers and the great technology of built-in panadapters (personally, I wouldn’t buy another radio without one). Not to mention new equipment warranties and current parts availability.

I also like N5ATM’s seven bullet points. Quite intuitive in answering your posted question.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: VE3WGO on December 15, 2022, 08:48:35 AM
Older rigs are so expensive simply because people are willing to pay that much for them.

So maybe the real question is:  why are people willing to pay so much for older rigs?   

As already discussed in this thread, there are many reasons, good and bad.  But one stands out for me....  the older a rig is, the more likely it is that it has a more friendly user interface.  "Progress" in the newest radios is obviously measured by how many functions can be packed into every menu-driven knob or button.  The manufacturers prefer that, but users subconsciously (or consciously, for those self-aware enough to realize it) don't.  If enough people dislike that trend, they prefer to buy older gear and prices stay high, it's as simple as that.

73, Ed
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 15, 2022, 10:19:39 AM

So maybe the real question is:  why are people willing to pay so much for older rigs?   

As already discussed in this thread, there are many reasons, good and bad.  But one stands out for me....  the older a rig is, the more likely it is that it has a more friendly user interface.  "Progress" in the newest radios is obviously measured by how many functions can be packed into every menu-driven knob or button.

73, Ed

IMO, I don't know if I completely agree with that. Look at the myriad of knobs and buttons on the TS-890, TS-990, FTDX-101D, and to a little lesser extent the IC-7610. Plus the touch screens and panadapter/waterfalls on all of them. They pretty much put all the necessary (and unnecessary), everyday controls at your immediate fingertips, without digging into menus. The more "buried" menus behind the buttons are usually set-and-forget items that control things like audio EQ adjustments, computer interfacing, etc...things that older radios don't have that make current-day operating easier, more efficient, and capable. You do have to RTFM to get the best out of any radio ;).

Now if you're "into" older legacy radios, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't see the logic in preferring, let's say, an FT-1000 over some of the current offerings. Especially at the high used prices your post is questioning. The newer IC-7300, FTDX-10, and FTDX-710 radios, priced new  between $1K and $1.5K are more capable with better specs than a 20+ year old radio for the same or more price. Just my $.02.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: AF5CC on December 15, 2022, 10:45:06 AM

Now if you're "into" older legacy radios, that's one thing. Otherwise, I don't see the logic in preferring, let's say, an FT-1000 over some of the current offerings. Especially at the high used prices your post is questioning. The newer IC-7300, FTDX-10, and FTDX-710 radios, priced new  between $1K and $1.5K are more capable with better specs than a 20+ year old radio for the same or more price. Just my $.02.

Yes and now.  Those radios have roofing filters and pan adaptors plus they do 6 meters, but none of them do 200 watts and dual receive like the FT1000D and FT1000MP MK5 do.  Nor are their internal tuners near as good as the FT1000D tuner is.  Plus they all need power supplies which adds to the cost.  However they are much easier to move around than the FT1000D is (which is still probably my favorite radio of those I have owned).

73 John AF5CC

Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K6BRN on December 16, 2022, 01:31:28 PM
Judging from what I see on-line (ebay, HRO used/consignment, etc.)  the older equipment is not selling terribly well and there's quite a bit of it for sale.  So perhaps the higher prices represents estate sales whose authors really don't know the value of the gear or others who need to dispose of it and clean out a closet but don't really need the money.

I recently purchased a "minty" contemporary rig (but NOT in production) for yet another station and was able to talk the price down to something very attractive, because it had been "sitting on the shelf" for three months with no takers.

No doubt there will ALWAYS be specific items, like a certain Collins series radio or FTDX-9000 that are fairly rare and will tend to remain relatively expensive.

But right now there seems to be a lot of used inventory - and as with houses - that tends to push the price down or make prices "soft".  When in doubt, make an offer.

Brian - K6BRN

Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 16, 2022, 02:46:29 PM

When in doubt, make an offer.


When considering the purchase of *any* used item, *always* make an offer, even if the ad says "price is "firm". You might be leaving money on the table if you don't. But do your homework and be careful not to make it ridiculous, as you never know what's in the mind of the seller. You might think you're insulting him, but if he wants to move it and the offer is reasonable, you might be pleasantly surprised at his agreement. The worst he can say is "no". Then see if you can come to a negotiated price in the middle where you'll both be happy. You'll never know unless you try ;).
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: AJ4SN on December 17, 2022, 06:10:17 AM
One of the reasons that I have always built my own gear is that I can repair it, and I stock my own replacement parts. I understand that not everyone has the time or resources to build equipment, but the tech support issue is nice benefit of homebrew.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K4BDA on December 17, 2022, 08:04:49 AM
One of the reasons that I have always built my own gear is that I can repair it, and I stock my own replacement parts. I understand that not everyone has the time or resources to build equipment, but the tech support issue is nice benefit of homebrew.

Your homebrew equipment on your eHam profile looks great!

Given time that is exactly what I would like to do... for the enjoyment and for the maintainability.

Very good job so hat's off to you.


Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: KD7RDZI2 on December 17, 2022, 12:15:05 PM
Indeed, even if not designed from scratch, I believe assembled kits which you can easily modify/improve like the uBitx and others have the big advantage you can easily repair and you don't worry to ship it to the manufacturer, because you can do the repair in a Sunday afternoon... This is a different strategy than buying a new rig after selling the 'old' rig a few weeks before the warranty expires.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K6BRN on December 17, 2022, 09:14:51 PM
One of the reasons that I have always built my own gear is that I can repair it, and I stock my own replacement parts. I understand that not everyone has the time or resources to build equipment, but the tech support issue is nice benefit of homebrew.

"Your homebrew equipment on your eHam profile looks great!"

"Very good job so hat's off to you."

I second those comments.  Wow!  Very impressive and clean work, Stan! 

Glad to see you have friends to help with antennas, too.  Breaks the stereotype that all hams are solitary, grumpy old men!

Brian - K6BRN



Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 18, 2022, 06:20:07 AM

Breaks the stereotype that all hams are solitary, grumpy old men!

Brian - K6BRN

Hey, Brian…I resemble that ;D ;D ;D!
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K8AC on December 22, 2022, 07:51:45 AM
I guess I have a different viewpoint on the subject.  I've been buying and selling amateur equipment since 1959 for personal use only - not trying to profit from resales.  In the early 60s, the only way to reach a wide audience when selling something was to advertise in the classifieds in QST or CQ magazine.  Otherwise, your potential buyers were local radio club members.  Technology was advancing rapidly at that time and everyone I knew wanted the latest and greatest gear and there was very little demand for out of date stuff. So, you would set a price at which you could be pretty sure of attracting a buyer and send off your add to a magazine.  Some months later, the ad would appear and if you set your price right you might get a letter or two from prospective buyers.  In our area, no one attempted to make a business out of profiting from used gear and most guys would sell to newcomers at low prices just to help them get started. 

About the same time, a publication known as the "Yellow Sheets" came along - published a couple of times a month, 5-6 double-sided pages printed on yellow paper.  Then we could run an ad that would be seen in just a couple of weeks by hundreds of subscribers across the USA.  Not as wide a distribution as the magazines, but the readers were active traders and so your ad reached a larger group of potential buyers.  Even with that, prices remained fairly stable.

Thirty years later, the Internet came along with multiple websites containing classified buy/sell ads and now you had a world-wide pool of potential buyers.  Without fail, somewhere in that pool of buyers was a guy who wanted what you were selling and was ready and able to pay any amount to get it.   
That was fueled by the emergence of eBay, where such buyers would compete against one another, driving prices insanely high.  Some of you may remember back maybe 20 years ago when Joe Walsh bought a Hallicrafters SX-88 on eBay for an amount north of $4,200!  The SX-88, while rare, was a mediocre receiver with horrible intermod performance and it didn't come close to a receiver like the Collins 75A-4.  But, Joe's bid set the price level of the SX-88 for the rest of time, and they still command absurd prices. 

When you get ready to sell a piece of gear today, the first thing you do is get on the Web and check to see what price everyone else is selling the same thing for.  That tends to stabilize the price of an item years past the point where it would have been reduced based on its performance vs. other gear.  And, lastly, there's the Collector problem.  When I was getting started, there were few if any collectors of amateur radio equipment.  Today, there are collectors of virtually EVERY brand of radio gear.  They will pay any amount to improve the "quality" of their collection, driving up the prices of the better quality gear.  My first experience with one of those fellows was the European who paid me $225 dollars for a set of unused IC-781 handles (!) still in their original wrapper.   I had paid $19.95 for them new.

To sum up, somewhere in the world there's a guy with a burning desire to own what you're selling and he is willing to pay anything you ask for it.  Today, that guy will likely see your ad on the Web, whereas many years ago you and he would never meet. 

73, K8AC
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K7JQ on December 22, 2022, 08:51:26 AM
^^^^^^^ K8AC, excellent post!
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K4BDA on December 22, 2022, 04:23:31 PM
I've decided to got with a new rig. Visiting the candy story tomorrow at Ham Radio Outlet.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: VE3WGO on December 22, 2022, 08:54:59 PM
It seems that the older a piece of gear is, the less correlation there is between its performance and its price.

Design aesthetics has a huge role to play in the desirability of a piece of gear.  It is a measure of how pleasing that gear is to use.  Those old boatanchor tube receivers with their mediocre IMD performance often have marvelously smooth tuning and excellent audio capabilities.  Every possible receiver setting is a clear label on a front-panel knob.  Many of them actually look nice, pleasing to the eye.

It's the same with classic cars...  many of them from the 1960s would not stand a chance in anything other than straight-line performance, but they sounded absolutely great, have extreme gobs of torque, and look fantastic.  Not like the cars of today which sadly all look like used bars of soap.  And some of those restored hot rods sometimes sell for the price of 5 of today's best cars.

Not everybody likes the look of a boatanchor radio or a classic car, I get that.  But as time wears on, it is pretty clear that the design aesthetic of modern electronics and vehicles are no longer as important as low cost and small size to most buyers.  As a result, those of us who do enjoy the pleasing "human interface" aspect of older radios and vehicles will continue to keep prices of older gear high.

73, Ed
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: AI5BC on December 23, 2022, 08:14:46 AM
I have an old rig for sale. 

(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia.istockphoto.com%2Fphotos%2Fsenior-woman-with-curlers-picture-id157681730%3Fk%3D6%26m%3D157681730%26s%3D612x612%26w%3D0%26h%3DeM4_RLqhnup7d2aCoeACnmg3xIieT3DWuSsCi7iuWOU%3D&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=91b441cbf18df482525c8703343b3d60ba3344ebb648f7b4aeb37d8d06b6c037&ipo=images)
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: K6OK on December 23, 2022, 05:08:24 PM
I've decided to got with a new rig. Visiting the candy story tomorrow at Ham Radio Outlet.

Great choice!  For about the same amount of money as the used FT-1000MP, a brand new Yaesu FTDX-10 or FT-710 absolutely leaves the old rig in the dust.  According to the Sherwood Receiver Test Data, the new rigs have 35dB more dynamic range than the FT-1000MP.  Icom 7300, 26 dB.  These are huge differences that you will hear.  Today's low end rigs run circles around the vintage stuff.
Title: Re: Why are used/older rigs so expensive?
Post by: ZS5WC on December 26, 2022, 12:21:03 AM
 :)Its all down to preference.
I prefer proper superhets with smooth rx audio , will still finish an contest with an inferior legacy radio, and be able to repair the radio if need be.
There are no real radio bit is the new sdrs.. couple of LPFS, or RX bandpass, that is it. The manufacturers are making good $$$ of the new rigs, all the expensive bits are left out!.
They do work very well, no doubt!.
Many IC-7300s are on the market because local AM broadcast swamps the front end.
Legacy radios handle that quite fine, also, Better close in IMD does not always equal better sensitivity,
To stop the SDR's ADC getting overloaded , front end gain is limited, and it is how the radio is normally tested,
On legacy radios they are tested without preamps, but their front end gain is high, so close in IMD will be poorer.
On the IC-756 series, the 'S' meter would only function nearly as per standard when preamp one is engaged. 
So its all much of an muchness.. You pay your $$$ and take your choice.
73 de William
ZS4L / ZS5WC