eHam
eHam Forums => RFI / EMI => Topic started by: N8CBX on December 19, 2022, 10:04:40 AM
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I just had a new Speed Queen washer & dryer (TR7/DR7) delivered & installed within 60mins ago and found extreme RFI on 80M and my AM radio. Anyone know of a AC line filter that could plug into the wall outlet for the washer?
Jan N8CBX
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Ask the dealer is there is a service bulletin which covers RFI.
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Anyone know of a AC line filter that could plug into the wall outlet for the washer?
Jan N8CBX
Hi Jan - I made three of them using a 4x4 deep metal electrical junction box with a short 1-ft male and female AC connector stubs. Inside I mounted a 20A rated EMT/RFI filter I bought on eBay and it eliminated most of my RFI problems. I installed one on my garage door opener because on certain bands, my garage door would open and close when I keyed the rig. I'm only running 90w power so, somehow RF is still getting into my house wiring.
Here's a link to one similar to what I used on eBay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/364014995870?hash=item54c0fc099e:g:b48AAOSwQ7tjSHfZ&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoPt6O8c1a%2BtFaSKgd840S40GeC1J31IJVtnBSltQlcbclp%2FliXtzam2q24M8ssNbSIjcvWd9%2F4YWhfOJo1LdLavGP4QxquWg1j7SIjVcDxaPkXDFclkIF7B44JSeOj6lgF%2BiliEqBsEPRUILM6kvCiY%2FCOUzxRYK5w4zU8B9V2Gh2iNlzi%2Fi5x3mez0OsQvYLE6DvCGdV2bmdjZS3%2F5dz%2Bw%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR_DMvL-lYQ
73, Paul - K7IN
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You should work with the dealer on this. A power line filter is easy to build, but is it the power line?
Neither a washer or dryer should be emitting RFI... they are not supposed to transmit noise, or any other signals.
-Mike.
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Device power draw
Speed Queen DR7 dryer, 240 VAC, 5350W
Speed Queen TR7 washer, 120 VAC, unspecified
Non-invasive EMI filter
I'm always wary of adding a differential-mode EMI filter to a device that might already have one and I'd begin with a simple common-mode choke having no galvanic connection to AC power. This filters the two AC lines plus the GND return, which could be important in this case. A non-invasive common-mode line filter can be constructed by wrapping the AC power cord ferrite cores. If the cord, or suitable wires, can be wrapped with 9 turns through four stacked FT240-43 ferrite cores you have an 80 meter CM filter with >8k ohms CM impedance. Any wiring must be rated for the AC outlet current rating.
G3TXQ chokes http://www.karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/type43.jpg
External EMI filter
External EMI filters should be rated for the outlet voltage and current, or higher. To begin, let's focus on the dryer. An external filter as suggested by K7IN could be quite effective. A suitable filter module rated for 250 VAC, 30A:
TE Connectivity CORCOM 2-1609034-1 available at Digikey for $61.77. It is in stock.
Datasheet https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=1654001_CORCOM_PRODUCT_GUIDE_SB_SERIES&DocType=CS&DocLang=English
RFI path and FCC exemption
The RFI egress path for AM/80m is the AC power cord. Washers and driers are exempt from part 15 RF emissions limits. And even if they were to comply, the FCC allowable conducted EMI high enough to cause S9+ noise in the HF bands. FCC radiated EMI limits apply above 30 MHz.
https://apps.fcc.gov/eas/comments/GetPublishedDocument.html?id=22&tn=177719#:~:text=An%20exempt%20household%20appliance%20is,central%20or%20window)%2C%20etc.
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OK, not kidding. Guess you have used the units ?? but go back to the dealer, and ask them to take the units back, explaining why, and credit towards another brand, unless you really like the Speed Queen brand and want to keep it. I once had to invite a manager of Best Buy over to my house to actually hear the noise on my radios when the appliance was turned on and off. May not work today but you can try. Had another unit that gave off RFI and the wife and I just worked out a s schedule when she was going to do the wash. Since that was only once a week it was not bad. By the way, does it wipe out the complete spectrum from AM band to 6 meters ??
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Not sure if this will apply to your brand, but I had the dealer install the factory EMI filter kit on both my Whirlpool washer and electric dryer immediately after I bought them. I had to deal with engineering at the factory to get the right contact. After that, they had the dealer install the kits. That took care of the issues for me.
When I replaced my failed AC unit I had decided what I wanted and then called the Trane factory ahead of the install date and they had the EMI filters sent to the dealer and these were installed at the dealer's shop before they arrived to put the stuff in place. The techs were happy about how all that worked out since it was so much easier to install the stuff in the shop where they had room to work.
Rick
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I'm going to fabricate a RFI filter box and screw the box on to the existing wall receptacle.
I have Corcom filters here as well as type 43 ferrits. Here's what I don't want to pay for a dealer filter. It looks to me to be installed in the washer?
Washer EMI Filter Kit 480V P45/65 | F828P3
$530.59
https://bdsparts.com/f828p3
I have had this RFI problem before and built an 80M DF receiver. I found the noise to be everywhere in the house wiring generated by the clothes washer (The LG dish washer is bad too)
Jan N8CBX
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It is the washer. It uses a Direct drive DC motor controlled by a PWM in the control board. That PWM is probably the source of your RFI. The days of the old 2 speed AC motors in a washer is a thing of the past.
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I just had a new Speed Queen washer & dryer (TR7/DR7) delivered & installed within 60mins ago and found extreme RFI on 80M and my AM radio. Anyone know of a AC line filter that could plug into the wall outlet for the washer? Jan N8CBX
Hi Jan (N8CBX):
Yes. I use TrippLite ISOBars on my washer and (gas) dryer to suppress conducted EMI from getting INTO them via the power cord, especially on 80M and 40M. They work very well. It's likely that this will help with your problem too (EMI/RFI conducted OUT of the WASHER onto house wiring and into your receiver).
Look here: https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Protector-Right-Angle-ISOBAR4ULTRA/dp/B0000513O4?th=1
(Tripp Lite ISOBAR ULTRA 4 Outlet Surge Protector/Power Strip, 6ft Cord, Right-Angle Plug, Metal, Lifetime Limited Warranty & $50,000 Insurance)
Speed Queen machines have a reputation for lasting forever - and they're NOT cheap. Suggest you try this remedy before returning them.
You'll need a different solution for the dryer if it has issues as well and is 240VAC/all-electric - but you only mentioned the washer.
Good luck!
Brian - K6BRN
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i have one too, SQ AWN43R1151TW01 7A.
It makes noise even when it is 'OFF'.
i used a Schaffner Filter # FN2060-20-06 (20A) filter.
Paul w0rw
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So make sure I understand correctly. You make your wife run a laundry business running the washer all day long while you play radio?
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This is the RFI suppressor (or idea) that I was hoping to find or build. It plugs into the wall receptacle. Digi-Key has them and just about the only sole-source supplier!
Tripp Lite ULTRABLOK, $48.21, Digi-Key
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tripp-lite/ULTRABLOK/467958?utm_medium=email&utm_source=oce&utm_campaign=4251_OCE22RT&utm_content=productdetail_US&utm_cid=3422187&so=79245444&mkt_tok=MDI4LVNYSy01MDcAAAGIzv8Gu5FVu2mOtwZNsheKj51Sw2WfL5WOUXctOCAoIsSN-6Nrt3yOZVNKbz2brp6N5XK4qmPtDPY-7Fl71R0cQwOTjQ6KiMN1q5NBnS_z
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This is the RFI suppressor (or idea) that I was hoping to find or build. It plugs into the wall receptacle. Digi-Key has them and just about the only sole-source supplier!
Tripp Lite ULTRABLOK, $48.21, Digi-Key
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tripp-lite/ULTRABLOK/467958?utm_medium=email&utm_source=oce&utm_campaign=4251_OCE22RT&utm_content=productdetail_US&utm_cid=3422187&so=79245444&mkt_tok=MDI4LVNYSy01MDcAAAGIzv8Gu5FVu2mOtwZNsheKj51Sw2WfL5WOUXctOCAoIsSN-6Nrt3yOZVNKbz2brp6N5XK4qmPtDPY-7Fl71R0cQwOTjQ6KiMN1q5NBnS_z
That's a TrippLite - essentially a 2-outlet no-cord ISOBAR. I STRONGLY suggest that you do NOT get the 2-outlet model with no cord (direct plug-in) The plugs on the back have a tendency to break off. The corded models have no such problem but are slightly larger (4 outlets, minimum).
Brian - K6BRN
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The plugs on the back have a tendency to break off.
Well, if they did I'll fix that little problem.
By the way, SpeedQueen (Alliance Laundry Systems) responded back to my inquiry of this problem. They will be sending to me a free RFI/EMI filter.
I'll try them both as a comparison to see which is more affective.
Thanks,
Jan N8CBX
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I have a sure-fire fix. Cost you nothing and completely eliminates the problem. So simple a kid can figure it out.
Don't run the washer when you play radio.
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The plugs on the back have a tendency to break off.
Well, if they did I'll fix that little problem.
By the way, SpeedQueen (Alliance Laundry Systems) responded back to my inquiry of this problem. They will be sending to me a free RFI/EMI filter.
I'll try them both as a comparison to see which is more affective.
Thanks,
Jan N8CBX
In general, I really like the Tripp-Lite surge protectors. But be careful with the direct plug-in (no cord) versions - they can fail in a dangerous way if at all stressed - as by a heavy washing machine cord. Hate to belabor a point - but this is a safety issue. Here are a few easy to find examples from one site:
https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00006B81D/ref=acr_dp_hist_1?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=one_star&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar
"The Tripp Lite direct plug in surge protector has a flaw. The plug is attached to the metal box with plastic. It easily loosens from the metal box. I had one that loosened enough that it shorted out, sparks, smoke and all. I am attaching pictures of the shorted out surge protector, what the early stages of a loosening plug looks like and the burn marks on my wall from the short out. I am also replacing all of my direct plug ins with the Isobar 2 surge protector strip with 6 foot cord"
"I've always been a big fan of Tripp Lite products. I own a Tripp Lite UPS and several "Isobar" surge protectors from 4 to 10 outlets. All are excellent and have been in service for years with no problems. This product, on the other hand, is an embarrassment to the company's reputation. I purchased two "Isobloks" in mid-2020, both are now broken after being plugged/ unplugged probably 5 times each. The male power connectors on both surge protectors have cracked into several pieces, and will likely pull out of the units themselves if I use them again."
"As many have written the plug pulls out and short. Scared the crap out of me. Does a great job but the failed design is a flaw that I can’t let go without commenting. I didn’t take a picture I just tossed it out. I forgot it had a lifetime warranty. Oh well."
"As others have noted, even with gentle, careful use, over time the plug for this unit pulls out of the box and exposes live wires. Do not waste your money buying this unit. If you bought this unit, do not use it. Ours is now in the garbage, where it belongs."
"I used this for my washer and dryer because I live in AZ where monsoon season lightning storms can cause power surges that damage advanced appliances with electronic controls. this seemed like an ideal solution for that. This weekend I was doing laundry and the dryer would not power on. I inspected the unit and it appeared to have worked itself away from the wall slightly. When I went to push it back into the wall, there was a pop and a flash and that was the end of that. Fortunately the circuit breaker did it's job, but now I have to shop for a replacement."
"Watch out, this unit has a serious safety issue. When my wife unplugged the power cord of her Dell XPS13 laptop from the ISOBLOK 2 the surge protector sparked and popped, singeing the surge protector, the outlet cover and blowing a circuit breaker. The spark was caused by the surge protector 3-pronged male plug separating from the metal housing. This happened even while holding the surge protector in place to prevent it from pulling out of the outlet. The attached pictures tell the whole story. There is a metal bar on the surge protector designed to screw into the wall plate and hold the unit in place. This feature may work with standard wall plates but it will not work with Decora style plates."
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I installed the "Tripp Lite Isobar" and it did nothing to suppress the RFI. It's purpose is a "surge protector"...Don't buy one.
I finally received the proper RFI/EMI from Speedqueen (for free) and that fixed the RFI problem in ALL my radios, including my AM broadcast radio. Now I can hear WLW in the clear!
Jan N8CBX
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I installed the "Tripp Lite Isobar" and it did nothing to suppress the RFI. It's purpose is a "surge protector"...Don't buy one.
I finally received the proper RFI/EMI from Speedqueen (for free) and that fixed the RFI problem in ALL my radios, including my AM broadcast radio. Now I can hear WLW in the clear!
Jan N8CBX
Hi Jan (N8CBX):
Glad to hear you solved the RFI problem and that Speed Queen supplied the RFI/EMI filter. What does it look like?
Every RFI/EMI situation is a little different. I've had great luck with the Isobars at two QTHs, when attaching them to Whirlpool front-loaders with touch controls. In those cases the problem was with RFI/EMI getting INTO the machines on 40 and 80M from the AC line, when running QRO.
Your problem was with RFI/EMI getting OUT of the machines onto the AC line, apparently, and INTO radios, which are MUCH more sensitive to noise thsan washer controls are. So perhaps the tiny ISObar you picked simply could not provide the level of suppression required.
And the bigger ISObars DO have quite a bit of EMI/RFI protection, including wound ferrites and balanced toroidal chokes. Here are some details:
https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/8-outlet-120-v-surge-suppressor-25-ft-cord/apd/a2494040/power-cooling-data-center-infrastructure.
Of course you picked the smallest, cheapest direct plug in model with the least room for this circuitry and a known safety issue you were warned about. One reason why I use the 6 and 8-outlet corded units for my applications. I've never had a problem with them - in use at my stations and on sensitive appliances, for decades.
In cases where I needed MORE suppression and when manual winding of ferrite chokes/toroids on the supply/signal lines was not enough (generally for sound systems/receivers), I've used AC line isolation transformers, which do better but are more expensive - unless you pick them up at a swap meet as I do.
Regardless, glad you're up and running. The Speed Queen machines tend to run forever. I gave away a top-loading washer/dryer pair that was 30 years old in favor of the more efficient front loading Whilrpools. The Speed Queen washer still worked fine and washed well, but it used a huge amount of water for each wash cycle. The Whirlpools have their own quirks and are not as solidly built, but they're very efficient (and seem to be RFI/EMI quiet but RFI/EMI sensitive), which is important in CA and at another QTH that uses a septic system.
Hope to hear you on the air soon!
Brian - K6BRN
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Isn't it amazing you only get the filter if you ASK for it?
Just be glad it was not your neighbor that had that noise generator... try explaining it to him (or her)!
-Mike.