eHam

eHam Forums => Antenna Restrictions => Topic started by: N5PZJ on December 25, 2022, 08:50:01 PM

Title: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: N5PZJ on December 25, 2022, 08:50:01 PM
https://www.arrl.org/news/rep-bill-johnson-introduces-bill-to-eliminate-private-land-use-restrictions-on-amateur-radio


This Act is expected to be reintroduced in the 2023-2024 Congress .
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on December 26, 2022, 06:52:24 AM
Making the same mistake over and over and over…. Is called ____________.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: W3SLK on December 26, 2022, 07:20:26 AM
K1VSK said:
Quote
Making the same mistake over and over and over…. Is called ____________.
I don't know what it is called but the philosopher George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it!" Albert Einstein is credited with saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result!"
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on December 26, 2022, 07:37:19 AM
Another nail in amateur radio coffin.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on December 26, 2022, 08:46:55 AM
K1VSK said:
Quote
Making the same mistake over and over and over…. Is called ____________.
I don't know what it is called but the philosopher George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it!" Albert Einstein is credited with saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and expecting a different result!"
I was paraphrasing.

Apparently, someone thinks putting a different label on the same impotent effort somehow changes anything.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K5YDD on December 26, 2022, 08:56:06 AM
If by a miracle, it passed, after being introduced in the Congressional session, would any ham be opposed?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: N5PZJ on December 26, 2022, 11:13:15 AM
If by a miracle, it passed, after being introduced in the Congressional session, would any ham be opposed?

You have hams that would oppose the opening of 20 meter band before daylight!   

You bet you’ve got ham opposed to anything the league proposes, it takes all types to make this world go round. 
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on December 26, 2022, 11:49:42 AM
If by a miracle, it passed, after being introduced in the Congressional session, would any ham be opposed?

There were a number of hams on the ARRL BOD who opposed the last (equivalent) iteration for a number of good reasons which was the reason the League withdrew support. This is the same language with lipstick painted on the title to confuse the simple-minded who look only at the label.

The better question is why the ARRL doesn’t try fixing the problems which sank this boat.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: N5PZJ on December 26, 2022, 04:09:42 PM
If by a miracle, it passed, after being introduced in the Congressional session, would any ham be opposed?

Simple-minded

The better question is why the ARRL doesn’t try fixing the problems which sank this boat.

Then fix the problem. 
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: WA9AFM on December 26, 2022, 05:24:14 PM
Making the same mistake over and over and over…. Is called ____________.

You'll miss 100% of shots your never take.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KF0QS on January 01, 2023, 10:23:14 PM
I sure would like to hear someone's reasoning why they think the proposal is bad.  It's much broader in antenna protection than the version that got killed a couple of years ago.

So, what's wrong with this proposal?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KG4RUL on January 02, 2023, 04:26:47 AM
I sure would like to hear someone's reasoning why they think the proposal is bad.  It's much broader in antenna protection than the version that got killed a couple of years ago.

So, what's wrong with this proposal?

Ditto

Let's hear your gripes
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 02, 2023, 10:27:40 AM
I sure would like to hear someone's reasoning why they think the proposal is bad.  It's much broader in antenna protection than the version that got killed a couple of years ago.

So, what's wrong with this proposal?

Not “gripes” but your implication by labeling any contrary judgment as such is telling.

I wonder how many actually read the Bill. It isn’t fundamentally different than past iterations but now comes with the fancy but misleading title like a lot of other Bills which have little to do with either the intent or substance.

Essentially, it is a performance standard rather than a definition of what is a “reasonable” antenna. That concept is an improvement on its predecessors. For example, it stipulates “not visible from the street” similar to the standard our HOA has.

What people likely haven’t thought through is the unintended consequence(s) should the next Congress enact something similar. For example, it forces an HOA to write prescriptive rules rather than allow flexibility. And HOAs generally aren’t that interested in accommodating antennas.

One certainty - it is unlikely to remain in its current form through the legislative process and isn’t being pushed by either homeowner’ associations or HOA residents which has historically meant failure to answer the two threshold questions legislators always ask - what is the need and  how many people benefit?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KH6AQ on January 02, 2023, 06:18:41 PM
H.R. 9670      https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf

Page 7, line 22 would help immensely. "Antennas That Do Not Require Prior Approval..." These antennas include the popular 43' vertical.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 02, 2023, 07:41:22 PM
H.R. 9670      https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf

Page 7, line 22 would help immensely. "Antennas That Do Not Require Prior Approval..." These antennas include the popular 43' vertical.
In context with the Bill’s language regarding visibility, you’d need a 44 ft high house to obstruct it from the street.

There are a number of similar contradictions including that which i would think any congressperson who worked on this “for a year” should know.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KH6AQ on January 04, 2023, 10:51:08 AM
H.R. 9670      https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf

Page 7, line 22 would help immensely. "Antennas That Do Not Require Prior Approval..." These antennas include the popular 43' vertical.
In context with the Bill’s language regarding visibility, you’d need a 44 ft high house to obstruct it from the street.

There are a number of similar contradictions including that which i would think any congressperson who worked on this “for a year” should know.

SEC. 345, (E)
A restriction that requires and amateur station antenna ground-mounted electrical enclosure, ground-mounted control enclosure, or a guy wire anchor to be visibly screened if such enclosure or anchor -- "

I interpret this to mean antenna ground-mounted electrical enclosures, ground-mounted control enclosures, or a guy wire anchors. I do not interpret it to apply to unguyed antennas having a visibly screened control enclosure and no guy wires.

  https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 04, 2023, 12:25:44 PM
H.R. 9670      https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf

Page 7, line 22 would help immensely. "Antennas That Do Not Require Prior Approval..." These antennas include the popular 43' vertical.
In context with the Bill’s language regarding visibility, you’d need a 44 ft high house to obstruct it from the street.

There are a number of similar contradictions including that which i would think any congressperson who worked on this “for a year” should know.

SEC. 345, (E)
A restriction that requires and amateur station antenna ground-mounted electrical enclosure, ground-mounted control enclosure, or a guy wire anchor to be visibly screened if such enclosure or anchor -- "

I interpret this to mean antenna ground-mounted electrical enclosures, ground-mounted control enclosures, or a guy wire anchors. I do not interpret it to apply to unguyed antennas having a visibly screened control enclosure and no guy wires.

  https://www.arrl.org/files/file/HR9670/HR9670-Amateur-Radio-Emergency-Preparedness-Act.pdf
Not sure it’s worth anyone’s time debating something now relegated to the Congessional trash heap. But, let’s not omit the salient phrase - “restrictions may be adopted” restricting the above. It is in the omission of undefined restrictions that there is a massive hole into which this language falls.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KB8VUL on January 04, 2023, 08:27:47 PM
This popped up in one of my GMRS groups, and I pretty much had this to say:
This will do nothing but cost the supporters of the bill votes.  While you are adamant about wanting to enjoy your hobby, have unrestricted personal property rights and all the rest, the other home owners that don't share in your desire to park large beams in the air have rights too.  And the honest truth is we as ham operators are in the minority. 

And those that don't want to see antenna's in the air WILL put up a fight that they will no doubt win.
Here's the truth about HOA's.  No where that an HOA exists is a crap hole where people leave broken down cars and clutter around lowering property values.  HOA communities are expensive to buy houses in, expensive to live in due to the expense of property, taxes on that property and the HOA dues.   

And IF this were to come to pass and you did get a federal law in place to allow you to basically snub your nose at the HOA and park a 5 element beam at 100 feet above your house in an HOA community.  That HOA and it's now very unhappy members will crawl right up your butt about ANYTHING they can.  They will fine you and beat on you legally until you relent or leave. 
My advice, against the wishes of this board to say, you need to carefully consider your costs of ownership.  Investigate your options for property with less restriction, and if ham radio is that important to you, move to a location that you have the personal property rights you desire and leave the problem to the next guy that lives in your house. 
Ham radio is a hobby.  Not all of us picked up this hobby early in life.  I wasn't into firearms and long distance shooting before I bought the house I am in were there is a house directly behind me.  So I can't shoot on my own property.  I can put up any tower I want, and I have 3 of them in the air.  But I am looking to move so I can enjoy my shooting sports hobbies from my own land.  Point is, I didn't consider it before as being an issue. Now I do.  I have always had interests and hobbies that would have put me at odds with anything resembling an HOA.  So I have chosen to avoid them all together.  But I STILL have limitations that nothing short of relocation is going to fix.  So at this point I go to a range to shoot.  Of course that's a bit harder when you are wanting to 'go' play radio on a big antenna.  Gun ranges are a thing, public access HF antenna's are not. 
But OTHER people have the right to NOT see your antenna sticking up in the air and they may well have chosen to live in an HOA community for that reason.  Denying them that is NOT going to turn out the way you may expect it to.  And forcing things on people is NOT the way to get along and be civil.
So unless you all want to get together and start the HAM (Ham Antenna's Matter) group.  Burn some cities, raise some hell and generally be difficult I really don't believe that we will have any real luck with antenna restrictions federal mandate or not.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 05, 2023, 04:08:32 AM

Here's the truth about HOA's. HOA communities are expensive to buy houses in, expensive to live in due to the expense of property, taxes on that property and the HOA dues.   


Not really. Whereas there are *exclusive*, high-dollar HOA communities, I believe the majority are actually more affordable, and have more modern construction, up-to-date energy efficiency, and living features. They're generally "cookie-cutter" houses on smaller parcels of land, where the builder can spread costs better than building a custom home on a personal parcel of land. Property expenses/upkeep and taxes are no different than any non-HOA property. Depending on the community amenities, HOA dues are generally very affordable, and keep the community from becoming run down. Most people actually like the CC&R's to avoid nightmare neighbors.

HOA complainers are usually "Karens" and/or their husbands...those people that must always have something to bitch about. If you're a ham radio operator and must have your tower and beam, buy elsewhere. Simple ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 06, 2023, 07:06:48 AM
You guys need to face the truth, people do not want ham radio operators living next door or in the neighborhood. They do not want trailer trash stringing up clothes lines in the trees or erecting dangerous half-baked structures. You lower property values and you are not welcome in the neighborhood.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 06, 2023, 10:02:23 AM
You guys need to face the truth, people do not want ham radio operators living next door or in the neighborhood. They do not want trailer trash stringing up clothes lines in the trees or erecting dangerous half-baked structures. You lower property values and you are not welcome in the neighborhood.
Not all hams are “trailer trash” who have no consideration or respect for their neighbors. But it appears there are a few only like rules they approve of.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KG4RUL on January 06, 2023, 01:58:20 PM
You guys need to face the truth, people do not want ham radio operators living next door or in the neighborhood. They do not want trailer trash stringing up clothes lines in the trees or erecting dangerous half-baked structures. You lower property values and you are not welcome in the neighborhood.
Not all hams are “trailer trash” who have no consideration or respect for their neighbors. But it appears there are a few only like rules they approve of.

And I should be overjoyed when my neighbor gets permission from the HOA to put in a pool and parties all day and into the night.  And I should be overjoyed when my my neighbor puts up a skate board ramp for their kids which they use all day an into the night.  And I should be overjoyed when my neighbor starts running a 'motel' on AIRBNB or other service.  But, God forbid I should do Anything for my enjoyment like amateur radio.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 06, 2023, 05:02:28 PM

And I should be overjoyed when my neighbor gets permission from the HOA to put in a pool and parties all day and into the night.  And I should be overjoyed when my my neighbor puts up a skate board ramp for their kids which they use all day an into the night.  And I should be overjoyed when my neighbor starts running a 'motel' on AIRBNB or other service.  But, God forbid I should do Anything for my enjoyment like amateur radio.

I am not familiar with an HOA which would tolerate short-term rentals and whatever a skateboard ramp is. Sounds like you are advocating for a stricter HOA and greater enforcement of it's rules. It would be hypocrisy to want strict enforced rules but concurrently think it's okay to put up an antenna.

It sounds like your neighbor is doing precisely what you imply you want to do - interfere with others by putting up an antenna which they might find objectionable. Stated differently, you object to a neighbor breaking the rules but you find it objectionable that you can"t...

And assuming you do live in an HOA, no one compelled you to live there so why complain? And if you don't live in an HOA where CC&Rs preclude antennas, what's your point?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: W1MOW on January 08, 2023, 08:31:46 AM
Everytime one of these bills comes before Congress, and posted about here, people on both sides come out of the woodwork.

The same HOA/CCR supporters will post against, and others will post for it. Having lived in HOA/CCR communities over the years, I have found that there are both good and bad ones.

I still don't understand why "reasonable" accommodations can't be made for amateur radio. No 70' towers with stacked yagis, but why not a 66' EFHW run from a house to a tree, or a 2m/70cm vertical painted the same color as the house where it is attached, or for that matter a gound mounted vertical that is also a flagpole? Simple and resonable accommodations would eliminate the need for these bills.

Heaven forbid you have to tell these same people they have to wear a mask to protect others, but then they have a right to tell people what they can, or can't do on their own property.

The hypocrisy in this country is getting out of hand!

Gary W1MOW
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 08, 2023, 01:37:27 PM
Everytime one of these bills comes before Congress, and posted about here, people on both sides come out of the woodwork.


Given this is a discussion forum, it should not come as a surprise that people comment. On this as with any other topic here.

As to the “I still don’t understand why reasonable accommodations can’t be made …”, I never did read an explanation here or anywhere else why people who willingly sign an agreement should be reasonably expect they not follow the agreement.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K6JH on January 08, 2023, 09:05:46 PM
Everytime one of these bills comes before Congress, and posted about here, people on both sides come out of the woodwork.


Given this is a discussion forum, it should not come as a surprise that people comment. On this as with any other topic here.

As to the “I still don’t understand why reasonable accommodations can’t be made …”, I never did read an explanation here or anywhere else why people who willingly sign an agreement should be reasonably expect they not follow the agreement.

Why? Because times, expectations and desires change. Past C,C, & R’s used to have clauses about no people of color, or Jewish descent. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone that would think that’s still a good idea, whether new law precludes enforcement or not. Should we still be arguing that owners “signed a contract”?

Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 09, 2023, 06:48:48 AM





Why? Because times, expectations and desires change. Past C,C, & R’s used to have clauses about no people of color, or Jewish descent. You’d be hard pressed to find anyone that would think that’s still a good idea, whether new law precludes enforcement or not. Should we still be arguing that owners “signed a contract”?

Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

Equating racism and discrimination to antenna limitations takes a “special” kind of logic. As does suggesting hams be added to the  list of protected classes of race, color, sex, national origin, disability or age.

It’s a simple choice - live in an HOA or don’t live there. It’s a free and unencumbered choice. But don’t move in and then try to inflict your desires on everyone else by citing such ludicrous rationalizations.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 09, 2023, 08:35:17 AM

Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

What??? The last I saw is that hams can buy a house and live wherever they want. But according to community CC&R's (which they agreed to and signed off on), they just can't bring their antennas with them. Just like *anyone else* that wants to park their huge RV on the street, put a junker car on blocks in their driveway, or paint their house purple with pink stripes.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 09, 2023, 08:58:59 AM

I still don't understand why "reasonable" accommodations can't be made for amateur radio.

Heaven forbid you have to tell these same people they have to wear a mask to protect others, but then they have a right to tell people what they can, or can't do on their own property.

Gary W1MOW

Being a ham in an HOA, I don't understand either. Something that doesn't impact the visualization or safety of the community seems logical to me. But all that and what we think doesn't matter. Until "reasonable accommodation" (whatever that means) is put into federal law or adopted into an individual HOA  CC&R, it is what it is. CC&R's are legally binding and, yes, they can tell you what you can and can't do on your own property. From other posts from you, I believe your wife is an attorney, and will confirm this.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 09, 2023, 09:25:06 AM
Rhetorical question - if CC&Rs are so troublesome, why is it that the hams who actually live in and are therefore affected by HOA rules aren’t the ones complaining?

See - busybody syndrome.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 09, 2023, 09:59:05 AM
Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.
OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 09, 2023, 10:54:43 AM
Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.

Fill me in...what does being a "Boomer" have anything to do with this? Calling hams, as minority people, not being a "protected class" and as such are being discriminated against is an absurd statement by itself.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K6JH on January 09, 2023, 08:32:20 PM
Granted that’s an extreme case. Amateur radio operators are a minority that is not currently a protected class, and can be legally be discriminated against.

OK Boomer, now you know what it feels like.

Fill me in...what does being a "Boomer" have anything to do with this? Calling hams, as minority people, not being a "protected class" and as such are being discriminated against is an absurd statement by itself.

A minority group compared to the majority of the population, who do not see the beautiful esthetics of a majestic 100 foot tower topped by HF yagis. Thus HOAs create anti antenna, anti radio rules, because as a majority they can. What is absurd about that? It’s the nature of the human beast.

 Just as it’s natural to try and weasel out of rules/laws you don’t like. Ever fight a speeding ticket even though you were guilty?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KF0QS on January 09, 2023, 11:17:26 PM
Rhetorical question - if CC&Rs are so troublesome, why is it that the hams who actually live in and are therefore affected by HOA rules aren’t the ones complaining?

See - busybody syndrome.

For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and I am frustrated by the limitations I have to deal with.  I can't have a separate tower, and any antenna on the roof can only be six feet above roofline.  Thus, my yagi is at a suboptimum height.  I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof when I moved in, and the HOA has recently changed the rules but acknowledged that my antennas can remain on my roof.  I always worry, however, about what would happen if someone got on a roll, and got enough people to vote to change the rules to eliminate my antennas.

Also, for the record, as it says in the thread posted at the beginning of this particular forum, it's not helpful to say "you knew what you were getting into when you moved in".  In the Denver area, there are some enclaves that allow ham radio antennas but they are not many.  My wife and looked for several years and accepted this neighborhood as the best compromise between my ham radio needs and all the other considerations that go into buying a home including the cost. 

I support the idea of a national policy that overrules HOA covenants for the reasons stated in the proposed legislation, i.e., that it's a public benefit to have a cadre of experienced radio operators and that we need to do what we can to encourage the hobby.  Although I recognize that some people may find the presence of an antenna tower in their view (and yes, I recognize that the current proposal says antennas shouldn't be visible from the street) objectionable, but those same people will be the first ones running to the local ham operator should communications fail.  Also, an antenna installation is a far cry from junk cars in the yard and failing to keep noxious weeds from proliferating.  A balance does need to be struck and I also recognize that HOA's should be allowed some ability to limit antennas.  I am not advocating for total freedom to put up multiple towers equivalent to the Voice America or something like that.

I recognize that there's a balance necessary between these competing interests, and that the proposed legislation attempts to strike a balance as imperfect as it may be.  If I had my druthers, I would change a few things in the proposal.  What I don't understand are my fellow ham enthusiasts who advocate totally against the passage of such legislation.  I don't agree with the statement that if you moved into the area, you're stuck with it.  But you're entitled to your opinion.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 10, 2023, 05:25:37 AM
Rhetorical question - if CC&Rs are so troublesome, why is it that the hams who actually live in and are therefore affected by HOA rules aren’t the ones complaining?

See - busybody syndrome.

For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and I am frustrated by the limitations I have to deal with.  I can't have a separate tower, and any antenna on the roof can only be six feet above roofline.  Thus, my yagi is at a suboptimum height.  I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof when I moved in, and the HOA has recently changed the rules but acknowledged that my antennas can remain on my roof.  I always worry, however, about what would happen if someone got on a roll, and got enough people to vote to change the rules to eliminate my antennas.

Also, for the record, as it says in the thread posted at the beginning of this particular forum, it's not helpful to say "you knew what you were getting into when you moved in".  In the Denver area, there are some enclaves that allow ham radio antennas but they are not many.  My wife and looked for several years and accepted this neighborhood as the best compromise between my ham radio needs and all the other considerations that go into buying a home including the cost. 

I support the idea of a national policy that overrules HOA covenants for the reasons stated in the proposed legislation, i.e., that it's a public benefit to have a cadre of experienced radio operators and that we need to do what we can to encourage the hobby.  Although I recognize that some people may find the presence of an antenna tower in their view (and yes, I recognize that the current proposal says antennas shouldn't be visible from the street) objectionable, but those same people will be the first ones running to the local ham operator should communications fail.  Also, an antenna installation is a far cry from junk cars in the yard and failing to keep noxious weeds from proliferating.  A balance does need to be struck and I also recognize that HOA's should be allowed some ability to limit antennas.  I am not advocating for total freedom to put up multiple towers equivalent to the Voice America or something like that.

I recognize that there's a balance necessary between these competing interests, and that the proposed legislation attempts to strike a balance as imperfect as it may be.  If I had my druthers, I would change a few things in the proposal.  What I don't understand are my fellow ham enthusiasts who advocate totally against the passage of such legislation.  I don't agree with the statement that if you moved into the area, you're stuck with it.  But you're entitled to your opinion.

You’re in an HOA, got permission to erect a *YAGI* at a “suboptimal” 6 feet above the roofline (still much better than in an attic…maybe it’s a 2 story house?), and you’re frustrated by the “limitations”??? Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth ;). Frankly, you should consider yourself very lucky. Most HOA’s wouldn’t be so permissive.

When the rules were changed and they let you keep your antenna, you were just grandfathered in with the original permission, and in the event of future changes, you’d still be safe.

With today’s advanced communications, folks won’t be running to the local ham in an emergency. Heck, most people younger than 45 don’t even know what ham radio is. Many people would equate the aluminum stuff on your roof to a junk car in the yard.

And yeah, when you move into an area with CC&R antenna restrictions, absent HOA permission or Federal law overrides, you *are* stuck with it. Whether you agree or not doesn’t matter. You signed off on a legally binding agreement. You always have other options if you want freedom for antennas.

I’ve lived in three HOA communities in the last 30 years, and knew what I was getting into. I’ve been denied antenna permission for a lot less (vertical, wires) than a yagi, but still able to successfully operate with non-visible stealth antennas.

Sorry, my friend, but no sympathy from me for your “frustrations” ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 10, 2023, 07:27:29 AM

For the record, I live in an HOA controlled community and ….I did get the HOA's permission to put the antenna on my roof…

Putting aside the preface that it was a rhetorical question -
Actually, yours is a good example of how many HOAs accommodate modification requests. Similar to ours in that respect. And for that reason alone, you have nothing to complain about.

But you validate my point in that it’s only those who have no business doing so are the vocal critics. We all moved into our HOAs understanding the limitations. It’s asinine to accept those limitations  and then complain about them. And even more asinine to complain when unaffected by them.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KF0QS on January 10, 2023, 10:55:37 AM
(http://Sorry, my friend, but no sympathy from me for your “frustrations” ;))

(http://It’s asinine to accept those limitations  and then complain about them. And even more asinine to complain when unaffected by them.)

With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.

Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 10, 2023, 12:31:35 PM
Quote

With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.
Your point isn’t that elusive.
Virtually everyone looks for a long time before making a purchase decision. And most of those decisions are a compromise in some respect. Nothing unique here.

Would you  want Congress to legislate every neighborhood allow revolving front doors or a windmill just because you like it? You do have that right, however frivolous it might be.
Quote
Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?

No one has yet provided any quantitative data showing if or to what extent HOA rules stunt growth. In fact, license data indicates consistent growth of the hobby concurrent with HOA growth. So, your implication anything is hampering growth lacks any basis and rather, seems more like a popular but unfounded perception which isn’t a good reason to advocate for Federal legislation.

Personally, I’d rather see Congress spend their time fixing some current real problems we all share.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 10, 2023, 03:29:30 PM

With all due respect my friends, you have both missed the point.  We looked for a long time and bought our current home as a compromise.

Given what we had to work with ($$$), it was the best we could do.  And, given that Congress has the ability to override the restrictions, why shouldn't I advocate for such an override?  Why should I accept the status quo?  There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.  And why shouldn't I advocate for something that helps grow our wonderful hobby?

I don't know your financial situation, and can't spend your money for you...you make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. Otherwise, expressing your frustrations with the (legal) restrictions you signed on to serves no purpose to those reading this forum topic.

Frankly, I've seen pictures of an 89 foot crankup tower and a 4 element SteppIR beam with the trombone elements on a tiny cookie-cutter lot, and it looks scary with all the homes close to it. I can envision the neighbors with torches and pitchforks pounding at his front door ;).

Don't get me wrong...I would love to have CC&R's allow for reasonable accommodation of ham antennas so I don't have to operate stealth. But to date, it isn't happening in my community. And all the bills introduced to Congress over the many years have gotten the thumbs down, so for now it is the status quo. No reason to think this new bill will be any different.

Again, your ability to get your HOA to allow for a yagi 6 feet above your roofline is something you should just run with and be happy. Most other HOA dwellers aren't so fortunate.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 10, 2023, 05:12:15 PM
make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. 

A couple of people here have claimed they can’t find an unencumbered home which is a frivolous claim with no credibility.
According to Iproperty management.com, only 53% of home in the U.S. are in an HOA with CC&Rs. Anyone can buy a home and do whatever they want.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: KF0QS on January 10, 2023, 11:47:29 PM
make your own decisions where you want to live based on your priorities. If ham radio with a tower and beam is your main priority, buy where you're allowed to do it. 

A couple of people here have claimed they can’t find an unencumbered home which is a frivolous claim with no credibility.
According to Iproperty management.com, only 53% of home in the U.S. are in an HOA with CC&Rs. Anyone can buy a home and do whatever they want.

Well, you just proved my point.  Over half of the housing stock in the US has HOA restrictions on it.  That's literally tens of millions of houses, and certainly, if you live in a metropolitan area that has grown rapidly in the last 20-30 years (e.g., Denver), then the percentage is going to be higher (because the older housing in the inner cities were built when the only restrictions were zoning requirements, and there was no such thing as an HOA).

Again, I return to my initial point.  Why would you be against this legislation?  K7JQ even admits he wishes his HOA restrictions could be rolled back so he could have more antenna than he currently has.  I honestly don't get it.  It obviously benefits the hobby if hams in all residential neighborhoods can operate with reasonable outside antenna systems. 

Please answer the question directly.  Why would you oppose the legislation?  If you don't like specific provisions, I get that.  But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 11, 2023, 12:41:00 AM


Over half of the housing stock in the US has HOA restrictions on it. 
The point being half the homes in the country are not in HOAs and therefore anyone claiming they can’t find one is either not really looking or doesn’t want to find one.

Quote
  But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?

Nothing! I don’t understand why you think they cannot. Any ham who wants  to have antennas can live anywhere antennas are allowed. They have a choice of half of all homes in the U.S. to choose from.

There is no rational reason hams should be allowed to interfere with the rights of others by changing rules just to appease a hobby.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 11, 2023, 08:48:01 AM

K7JQ even admits he wishes his HOA restrictions could be rolled back so he could have more antenna than he currently has.  I honestly don't get it.  It obviously benefits the hobby if hams in all residential neighborhoods can operate with reasonable outside antenna systems. 

But, in principle, what is wrong with allowing all hams to have reasonable outdoor antenna systems?

CC&R’s are intended to benefit the *entire* community, and prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents. Ham radio antennas are generally construed to be an eyesore and possible safety hazard, thus their CC&R restrictions/prohibitions. To hams, antennas are beautiful things, but not so much to the *overwhelming* majority of non-hams. Those home-seekers that are opposed to *any* provisions of the CC&R’s presented to them before signing to purchase should simply go elsewhere. Not move in and then complain about them.

It all boils down to one word…priorities. As stated above, half the communities in the U.S. are not under CC&R/HOA provisions. You have your choice where to move based on your priorities in life. If you’re not too choked up with a community that allows antennas, but you must have them, so be it. You made your choice, and it does no good to complain to us on this forum. Until such legislation is passed to allow reasonable accommodation, and yes I support it, it is what it is.

My priorities don’t include a tower and beam. Strategically placed wires or verticals, to me, are reasonable accommodations. But some hams would want to push the envelope and have a different idea of what’s “reasonable”. Thus the conflict. I don’t perceive any resolution with this new bill.

Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 11, 2023, 09:03:54 AM
prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents.

I think you left out the most important reason, property values. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 11, 2023, 09:38:02 AM
prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents.

I think you left out the most important reason, property values. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.
Once upon a time, decades ago in another house where there was no building or height limitation for antennas and where I put up a permitted 80 ft tower, one of our neighbors (a Superior Court judge) sued me claiming  property devaluation.

In the interim, his wife divorced him and he was forced to liquidate their assets including the house well below market value and the case was dropped. The real estate broker who sold the house and the eventual buyer both told me the market value assessment included consideration of the “eyesore” presented by the tower. It clearly affected property value.

In another house we owned in  rural ‘horse country’ on a multi-acre lot where I erected the same 80 ft tower, my neighbors helped me put it up. Hard to subsequently complain about it not that they could see it.

Morale of this story - location, location, … HOAs generally are comprised of small lots where neighborhood aesthetics are an important consideration and should be ensured for various reasons.

Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 11, 2023, 10:10:15 AM
prevent visual abnormalities and situations that could impact the safety, welfare, and comfort of its residents.

I think you left out the most important reason, property values. Otherwise, I agree with your assessment.

Yes, property values also. But, there are others on these forums that claim, with various studies, not necessarily so. Each community, HOA or not, has its own unique set of "comps" that determine what houses there should sell for.

In the case of ham radio antennas, I point to one of my posts above describing an 89 foot crankup tower and 4 element beam monstrosity on a postage stamp sized lot, surrounded on all sides by close-in homes. I'd think that only the homes in the immediate visual vicinity of the antenna would be affected by it. Any of those homes offered for sale would limit the amount of potential buyers willing to put up with the eyesore and safety considerations, thereby reducing their value and eventual selling price. If the antenna was just a visually limited vertical or wires, I doubt if it would have had much of an impact on surrounding home values and/or their potential buyers.

Personally, I have a fence-mounted HF screwdriver antenna and 6 meter loop in my backyard, visible to my next door neighbor, and they just easily and quickly sold their home for top dollar.

Before I hit "Post", I see that K1VSK described just such a tower incident involving him ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: W1VT on January 11, 2023, 10:28:42 AM
I have two dozen wire antennas in my back yard and they are hiding in plain sight.  They are supported by a half dozen trees.
Several of my neighbors say they have purchased their homes because of my roses! 
I grow three hundred rose bushes.  I have roses in bloom from the beginning of June to the end of October.

I worked FT8WW on 20CW last night with a dipole at 30 feet.
I've worked over three hundred entities on CW from my present location.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 11, 2023, 11:45:58 AM

Several of my neighbors say they have purchased their homes because of my roses! 
I grow three hundred rose bushes.  I have roses in bloom from the beginning of June to the end of October.


But you'll never hear someone say "I bought my home because of your 89 foot tower and monster antenna". Unless he's a ham buying *your* home ;D.

At least you never have to go shopping for flowers on Valentine's Day ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: W9IQ on January 13, 2023, 03:01:11 PM
I think the provision that separates the idealist from the pragmaticist is the permitting of flag pole antennas.

Where do our resident pundits stand on this issue alone?

(Yes, I have a COA property, yes I am an officer on a COA board and yes I have a station on non-CCR property so I am fully qualified to ask this question...)

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 14, 2023, 07:02:00 AM
I think the provision that separates the idealist from the pragmaticist is the permitting of flag pole antennas.

Where do our resident pundits stand on this issue alone?

(Yes, I have a COA property, yes I am an officer on a COA board and yes I have a station on non-CCR property so I am fully qualified to ask this question...)

- Glenn W9IQ
The pragmatist would say display of the flag is unencumbered, however, the manner in terms of the height and location is discretionary as is that of the pole.

It’s a moot point. You don’t need a flag pole “antenna” to display a flag on a pole. Consequently, the antenna  is a mutually exclusive consideration.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 14, 2023, 07:27:30 AM
I think the provision that separates the idealist from the pragmaticist is the permitting of flag pole antennas.

Where do our resident pundits stand on this issue alone?
- Glenn W9IQ
That is what hams do best, break the rules and codes, then look for ways to hide their activity like hanging out on QRZ and Eham scheming to break the rules and codes. ARRL and CBers motto should be: Rules, we don't need any stinking rules. "
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 14, 2023, 08:49:19 AM
I think the provision that separates the idealist from the pragmaticist is the permitting of flag pole antennas.

Where do our resident pundits stand on this issue alone?

(Yes, I have a COA property, yes I am an officer on a COA board and yes I have a station on non-CCR property so I am fully qualified to ask this question...)

- Glenn W9IQ

Glenn, I think you're more than qualified to ask any question on the forums. Usually, you're the one *answering* questions ;).

IMO, a ham radio antenna *disguised* as a CC&R permissible flagpole would be a perfect example of "reasonable accommodation" by a HOA, if you can get them to approve it. When I say "permissible", you can't automatically assume that the Federal law allowing the display of American flags means a freestanding, ground-mounted flagpole. I'd imagine a CC&R can limit the display to a small pole affixed to a side wall/facade of the house. They could claim that a freestanding pole can be a safety hazard, or noisy to neighbors when a rope or chain bangs against it in the wind.

As K1VSK stated, a freestanding flagpole would still be subject to height and placement restrictions, whereas being too short, too close to a structure, or no room to place sufficient ground radials would make it ineffective as a viable antenna.

If I were to consider such an installation when I'm under HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions, I'd apply for permission to erect a flagpole, not a "flagpole antenna". I see no reason to alert them to my primary intention. If height and placement is conducive for an effective vertical antenna, I'd make plans to disguise it as/within the flagpole, and bury the ground radials/coax. Also if necessary, disguise a tuner at the base. There are companies that actually manufacture flagpole antennas.

Of course, if you can get a CC&R to permit "flagpole ham radio antennas", all the better. Probably the same odds as the lottery ;).

Bob K7JQ

Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 14, 2023, 09:39:07 AM

IMO, a ham radio antenna *disguised* as a CC&R permissible flagpole would be a perfect example of "reasonable accommodation" by a HOA,
So here is my beef with that statement. There is no way an HOA would allow any ham to do this and trash up the neighborhood. Something you and most hams are not aware of or even care about, A ground mounted vertical monopole antenna is a shock and safety hazard. Electrical codes have a lot to say about it. In order to have a code compliant installation would require you to place barriers like a chain-link fence limiting access to qualified personnel, and warning signs to alert the public of the danger. Ironic huh? Not in my neighborhood Sammy.

That Flagpole is hot with voltages up to several hundred volts for animals and humans to come in contact with. Can be used to an advantage if you have a trespasser leaning on the flagpole or a dog peeing on it. Key the mic, whistle will send them both running and bawling to the hills to never return again. Key that mic and shock a kid or the mailman, and you lose your house. Open and shut case. You had complete disregard of public safety rules, and electrical codes uncle Elmer.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 14, 2023, 10:28:14 AM

IMO, a ham radio antenna *disguised* as a CC&R permissible flagpole would be a perfect example of "reasonable accommodation" by a HOA,
So here is my beef with that statement. There is no way an HOA would allow any ham to do this and trash up the neighborhood. Something you and most hams are not aware of or even care about, A ground mounted vertical monopole antenna is a shock and safety hazard. Electrical codes have a lot to say about it. In order to have a code compliant installation would require you to place barriers like a chain-link fence limiting access to qualified personnel, and warning signs to alert the public of the danger. Ironic huh? Not in my neighborhood Sammy.

That Flagpole is hot with voltages up to several hundred volts for animals and humans to come in contact with. Can be used to an advantage if you have a trespasser leaning on the flagpole or a dog peeing on it. Key the mic, whistle will send them both running and bawling to the hills to never return again. Key that mic and shock a kid or the mailman, and you lose your house. Open and shut case. You had complete disregard of public safety rules, and electrical codes uncle Elmer.

Somehow I knew you'd chime in on this. And my name isn't Sammy nor uncle Elmer ;D.

Surprisingly, you have a point...if the flagpole was metal and in the front yard unprotected by a barrier. Here in AZ, the majority of homes have a backyard surrounded by a 6' block wall or other security fencing. Unauthorized personnel within your backyard would be trespassing on your property. But YMMV.

So if you received permission for a backyard flagpole (which I see all the time out here), it would be no different than any other exposure to a ground-mounted vertical antenna on your (protected) property. A fiberglass/non-conductive flagpole with a wire or aluminum tube inside could also work in the front yard without posing a shock/burn hazard.

Many ways to make things work. Maybe not in your neighborhood, Bunky, but it would in mine ::).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 14, 2023, 11:36:54 AM
I think  using a flag pole as an antenna where antennas are prohibited is dishonest, is deceptive and lacks integrity. Are people really that cavalier about what many consider a symbol of our country and its values being used to subvert a consensual agreement they made just for a hobby?
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 14, 2023, 01:36:12 PM
I think  using a flag pole as an antenna where antennas are prohibited is dishonest, is deceptive and lacks integrity
It is, and that is why there is a dedicated forum here on Eham and QRZ to learn how.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 14, 2023, 01:59:55 PM
I think  using a flag pole as an antenna where antennas are prohibited is dishonest, is deceptive and lacks integrity. Are people really that cavalier about what many consider a symbol of our country and its values being used to subvert a consensual agreement they made just for a hobby?

Don, I respect your opinion. But I see nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone. You can still respect and honor your Country by flying the flag, and operate radio at the same time with no visual impact to the community.

Would there be any difference with flying the flag on a flagpole (not being an antenna) and having a separate attic or other stealth antenna? Or are you of the opinion that if there are CC&R antenna restrictions/prohibitions you shouldn't have any antennas at all, stealth or otherwise not being visible to the community? I was under the impression that you are in an HOA, but still operate.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 14, 2023, 06:54:05 PM


Don, I respect your opinion. But I see nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone. You can still respect and honor your Country by flying the flag, and operate radio at the same time with no visual impact to the community.
Disguising a prohibited antenna using a flag pole which appears innocuous is still being deceptive to circumvent a rule. A rule to which we all agreed.
Quote
Would there be any difference with flying the flag on a flagpole (not being an antenna) and having a separate attic or other stealth antenna? Or are you of the opinion that if there are CC&R antenna restrictions/prohibitions you shouldn't have any antennas at all, stealth or otherwise not being visible to the community?
Shouldn’t that be in the context of what the restriction is, e.g., no antennas, no outside antennas, no visible antenna, no radio transmission, etc..? Most CC&Rs apply to the exterior of the homes.
Quote
I was under the impression that you are in an HOA, but still operate.

I have written approval in the form of a modification to have a Hexbeam which conforms to the height and visibility limitations granted in the mod.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 14, 2023, 08:01:04 PM


Don, I respect your opinion. But I see nothing wrong with killing two birds with one stone. You can still respect and honor your Country by flying the flag, and operate radio at the same time with no visual impact to the community.
Disguising a prohibited antenna using a flag pole which appears innocuous is still being deceptive to circumvent a rule. A rule to which we all agreed.
Quote
Would there be any difference with flying the flag on a flagpole (not being an antenna) and having a separate attic or other stealth antenna? Or are you of the opinion that if there are CC&R antenna restrictions/prohibitions you shouldn't have any antennas at all, stealth or otherwise not being visible to the community?
Shouldn’t that be in the context of what the restriction is, e.g., no antennas, no outside antennas, no visible antenna, no radio transmission, etc..? Most CC&Rs apply to the exterior of the homes.
Quote
I was under the impression that you are in an HOA, but still operate.

I have written approval in the form of a modification to have a Hexbeam which conforms to the height and visibility limitations granted in the mod.

Fair enough. On this subject, we can agree to disagree. Since I’ve been using stealth antennas in my three HOA’s for the last 30 years with no repercussions, you can  consider me “dishonest, deceptive, and lacking integrity”. And if I would erect a flagpole, whether it doubles as an antenna or not, I’d still be proud to display the American flag.

Meanwhile, with no harm/infringement to anyone or anything, I’ve been enjoying the hobby. I still sleep well at night😏.

Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 15, 2023, 06:57:10 AM






Fair enough. On this subject, we can agree to disagree. Since I’ve been using stealth antennas in my three HOA’s for the last 30 years with no repercussions, you can  consider me “dishonest, deceptive, and lacking integrity”. And if I would erect a flagpole, whether it doubles as an antenna or not, I’d still be proud to display the American flag.

Meanwhile, with no harm/infringement to anyone or anything, I’ve been enjoying the hobby. I still sleep well at night😏.

Opinions vary. No one cares about my opinion except me. Nor  should they. I wouldn’t have expressed it so bluntly except you asked…
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: AI5BC on January 15, 2023, 07:48:03 AM
I’ve been using stealth antennas in my three HOA’s for the last 30 years with no repercussions, you can  consider me “dishonest, deceptive, and lacking integrity”.

Yep that makes you a ham/CB radio operator. You are a poster Boomer.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 15, 2023, 08:28:58 AM

Disguising a prohibited antenna using a flag pole which appears innocuous is still being deceptive to circumvent a rule. A rule to which we all agreed.

Shouldn’t that be in the context of what the restriction is, e.g., no antennas, no outside antennas, no visible antenna, no radio transmission, etc..? Most CC&Rs apply to the exterior of the homes.

I have written approval in the form of a modification to have a Hexbeam which conforms to the height and visibility limitations granted in the mod.

Looking at your situation a different way:

You willingly agreed to buy a home in an HOA community with a CC&R that restricts antennas (you had to ask for permission). A contractual/consensual "rule to which we all agreed"...you and all the other residents in your community. Perhaps your neighbors felt confident that they wouldn't have to look at unsightly antennas/structures because of that rule.

Yet you apparently didn't agree to that rule, and wanted to"circumvent" it by asking for a modification to erect an antenna on the exterior of your house. A Hexbeam no less...an ugly (IMO) upside-down, blown-out umbrella/clothesline looking thing. To be effective, I'm sure it's at a reasonable height, and somewhat visible to your neighbors.

Despite the fact that you received approval for your Hexbeam, does that make it any less visible to (possible) unhappy neighbors that relied on the CC&R to protect their views or safety, and infringing on their rights "just for a hobby"? Legal, yes. But realistically, any less "dishonest, deceptive, or lacking integrity" than my much less obtrusive little screwdriver antenna that wasn't approved by the HOA?

My opinion, to be blunt, is that your opinion contains a wee bit of hypocrisy ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 15, 2023, 09:07:04 AM

Disguising a prohibited antenna using a flag pole which appears innocuous is still being deceptive to circumvent a rule. A rule to which we all agreed.

Shouldn’t that be in the context of what the restriction is, e.g., no antennas, no outside antennas, no visible antenna, no radio transmission, etc..? Most CC&Rs apply to the exterior of the homes.

I have written approval in the form of a modification to have a Hexbeam which conforms to the height and visibility limitations granted in the mod.

Looking at your situation a different way:

You willingly agreed to buy a home in an HOA community with a CC&R that restricts antennas (you had to ask for permission). A contractual/consensual "rule to which we all agreed"...you and all the other residents in your community. Perhaps your neighbors felt confident that they wouldn't have to look at unsightly antennas/structures because of that rule.

Yet you apparently didn't agree to that rule, and wanted to"circumvent" it by asking for a modification to erect an antenna on the exterior of your house. A Hexbeam no less...an ugly (IMO) upside-down, blown-out umbrella/clothesline looking thing. To be effective, I'm sure it's at a reasonable height, and somewhat visible to your neighbors.

Despite the fact that you received approval for your Hexbeam, does that make it any less visible to (possible) unhappy neighbors that relied on the CC&R to protect their views or safety, and infringing on their rights "just for a hobby"? Legal, yes. But realistically, any less "dishonest, deceptive, or lacking integrity" than my much less obtrusive little screwdriver antenna that wasn't approved by the HOA?

My opinion, to be blunt, is that your opinion contains a wee bit of hypocrisy ;).
For brevity, I didn’t explain the chronology thoroughly which might help clarify my situation.

When we moved here in 2009, the HOA rules surprisingly did not include ANY reference, mention or constraints regarding ham radio antennas. That came as a surprise and shock to me as, when we bought the house, I had assumed such a rule existed typical of most HOAs. I never bothered to look.  I could have erected virtually anything or as many antennas as I wanted.

I asked the HOA in writing if that omission in their rules was correct and they responded saying yes, I could (put up anything). But I didn’t. The reason being I felt it inappropriate to take advantage of that omission.

I then offered to assist if they wanted to enact any guidance or rule by which the Architectural Committee could oversee placement and other aesthetic considerations. And we subsequently wrote such an amendment to the HOA rules which I followed in erecting the Hexbeam. That rule, among other things, also requires the notification and written consent of neighbors.

I circumvented nothing. I think I did what was both respectful of my neighbors and reasonable by any definition.

Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 15, 2023, 10:53:30 AM
Don K1VSK,

Respectfully, thanks for the clarification. When you said you had written permission to modify the CC&R, to me that inferred there were antenna restrictions already in place.

In my current HOA (21 years), based on denials of antenna permission in my past HOA's, I decided on "It's sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than for permission". Certainly not a life and death issue, and in my mind not "deceptive, dishonest, or lacking integrity". I figured I'd give it a shot with a motorized screwdriver on my backyard fence...small, compact, and extremely minimal visually to my next door neighbors. If they would have complained or the HOA told me to remove it, I'd comply immediately. To date, it works well, and not a peep from anyone.

I also did what I thought was respectful of my neighbors and reasonable for my situation. And as you say, my opinion is the only one that counts ;).
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K1VSK on January 15, 2023, 11:07:48 AM
Don K1VSK,

Respectfully, thanks for the clarification. When you said you had written permission to modify the CC&R, to me that inferred there were antenna restrictions already in place.

In my current HOA (21 years), based on denials of antenna permission in my past HOA's, I decided on "It's sometimes better to ask for forgiveness than for permission". Certainly not a life and death issue, and in my mind not "deceptive, dishonest, or lacking integrity". I figured I'd give it a shot with a motorized screwdriver on my backyard fence...small, compact, and extremely minimal visually to my next door neighbors. If they would have complained or the HOA told me to remove it, I'd comply immediately. To date, it works well, and not a peep from anyone.

I also did what I thought was respectful of my neighbors and reasonable for my situation. And as you say, my opinion is the only one that counts ;).
Sorry if I was unclear earlier. If I wrote I had permission to modify existing limitations, that was misleading. Rather, I helped write the rule where none existed previously. I figured I’d rather be part of the process than have someone else someday unilaterally write it with no input.

No clue how yours are written but if it were me, I’d forgo trying to get an exemption and try amending the current language if, for no other reason, to reach some compromise. But then, I have no sense of how amenable your folks might be.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: K7JQ on January 15, 2023, 02:38:28 PM

No clue how yours are written but if it were me, I’d forgo trying to get an exemption and try amending the current language if, for no other reason, to reach some compromise. But then, I have no sense of how amenable your folks might be.


Yes, the word you used,"modify", (to me) implied seeking revision of an existing antenna restrictive covenant, not creating a new one.

My CC&R's are 45 pages long, and the antenna covenant reads "No antennas allowed...(blah, blah, blah)...unless approved by the Design Review Committee". After I moved in, I figured I might have a shot, and presented plans for a multi-band, 24-foot vertical in the back yard. They had a certain time frame to respond yes or no, and when I received no response by then, I wrote back that I was going ahead with the plan. Before I even started, their attorney sent me a nasty "Cease and Desist" order. At that point, I said screw it, and decided on the fence-mounted screwdriver (no pun intended). I figured push comes to shove, if they order me to remove it, I would...no harm, no foul as they give you time to comply before fines kick in. Over 20 years later, still hamming away with it.
Title: Re: 2023 Emergency Preparedness Act
Post by: WS4E on January 19, 2023, 12:54:45 PM
The only way bills like this get passed in today's modern corporate controlled congress, is if someone pays enough people big $$$ in back room deals so they are attached as amendments to one of the big 1000+ page bills for appropriations or defense that they don't even bother to read.

There is no such thing Mr Smith from Washington getting any individual bills considered and passed anymore for their constituents.