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eHam Forums => RFI / EMI => Topic started by: KW1L on December 30, 2022, 06:52:42 AM

Title: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: KW1L on December 30, 2022, 06:52:42 AM
I have a 18 month old washing machine.   
After the machine completes it wash and sits idle it gets a error code of bad motor control board. The error code happens randomly.  After one wash or after many washes.  I can reset the error.
Under warranty the control board has been replaced but the problem came back. The tech rep checked the washing machine, AC wiring and called factory support.  They will replace the board again.
Is it possible when I transmit on 40 or 10 meter that RF is getting into the washing machine and causing the error?  I run 100 watts on CW and SSB (TS-590s)
Unable to force the error when I transmit.  Washing machine is on it own circuit.
Any advice?
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K1KIM on December 30, 2022, 07:32:07 AM
I would surmise if you can't duplicate the error when transmitting then it's not your radio.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6BRN on December 30, 2022, 08:09:14 AM
What model of washing machine is it?
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: KW1L on December 30, 2022, 08:18:25 AM
What model of washing machine is it?
Maytag model mvwc565fw2... thanks
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K0CV on December 30, 2022, 08:46:42 AM
My Whirlpool washer gets a lid lock light actuation any time I transmit on 20 meters or higher with my indoor attic mounted fan dipole. Only way to fix is to disconnect from power source. I put in a separate extension box with suppression but didn't solve the problem. Only solution (in math class we would say the trivial solution) is to shut off the extension box for the washer and disconnect it from any outside source.
I have also gone thru two washer control boards (replaced under warranty) but the source seems to be the gas drier that sits next to the washer. The tech that did the replacement said that the reason that washing machine instructions tell you to connect the washer to a separate line to the circuit breaker box is the voltage spike that gets released from the solenoids in the gas drier that turn the gas on and off. Since I installed the suppression extension box for the washer, no further problems with the control board.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: KD0REQ on December 30, 2022, 08:57:52 AM
put a suppressor on the dryer 120 volt cord also.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K5LXP on December 30, 2022, 09:39:14 AM
Careful with what you say or you'll end up like the Hatlo cartoon:

(http://www.repeater-builder.com/humor/pix/hatlo.jpg)

You tell the repair guy that "I wonder if my ham radio caused this" and you'll be on your own for repairs from now on, whether it's your fault or not.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: AI5BC on December 30, 2022, 10:15:01 AM
put a suppressor on the dryer 120 volt cord also.
That is some funny stuff. Electric dryers are 240 VAC.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6BRN on December 30, 2022, 11:03:07 AM
The washer has knobs and it also has touch controls, which oddly enough seem to indicate sensitivity to conducted EMI on the Whirlpool front-loaders (like mine).  Probably the same on yours.

So - one easy thing to try is a Tripp-Lite IsoBar.  Get the 4 or 6-plug version with cord.  The two-plug,  direct-plug-into-the-wall version tends to break in an unsafe way.

This solved my problems: (6-outlet with indicators)

https://www.amazon.com/IBAR4-6D-Isobar-Spaced-Protector-INSURANCE/dp/B0000513T0?th=1

It might solve or help yours, if the problem is RF or other noise on your power lines into the washer.

You did NOT indicate the dryer has ANY problems, so I presume that's OK.

Oooops!  My wash is ready.  Time to put things in the dryer.  I'm working 10M right now at 200 Watts, FT8.  But most of my intermittent problems were on 40M.

Good luck!

Brian - K6BRN

Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6BRN on December 30, 2022, 11:04:19 AM
x
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6AER on December 30, 2022, 11:12:21 AM

Several things are probably going on. I’ll bet you have a nice pair of stainless steel braded water lines going to the copper water home feed system. Now your washer is really grounded.

Is your antenna in the attack or close to the roof. A 100 watt transmitter will put more RF into your electrical house wiring system than a 1 KW dipole 60 feet away.

The solution is to use rubber water lines to the washer and to connect a .05 mFd, 500 volt capacitor from the hot side of the AC wall feed to the return AC ground. This will isolate your washing machine from excessive RF fields.

IT WILL ALSO REDUCE MOTOR CONTROLLER INTERFERENCE FROM GETTING BACK ITO YOUR RADIO.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: AI5BC on December 30, 2022, 11:31:24 AM

 connect a .05 mFd, 500 volt capacitor from the hot side of the AC wall feed to the return AC ground. This will isolate your washing machine from excessive RF fields.
If you take this advice will inject 2 to 3 ma of 60-Hz line current into your AC equipment ground conductor. Your GFCI receptacle will teach you lesson in proper grounding when it sees a ground fault and opens.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6AER on December 30, 2022, 12:53:36 PM
WASHING MACHINE AC CIRCUITS DO NOT USE GFI'S. 

YOU ATTACH THE CAPACITOR GROUND LEAD TO THE RETURN COMMON LEAD NOT THE SAFETY GROUND.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: WA3SKN on December 30, 2022, 03:34:33 PM
Possible?? Yes.  Probable?? No.
It sounds like a bad motor control board.  It might be the motor itself.  It might be RFI.  But Maytag is responsible for fixing it.  There might even be a filter for fixing it that they have in stock.
Let them do their job.  After they give up you get to try your ideas.  Remember, a washing machine is not supposed to be a receiver.  It should be engineered as such.

-Mike.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K5TED on December 30, 2022, 03:50:54 PM
My Kenmore washer freaks out when I transmit with the amp. They are not on the same circuit. Put multiple ferrites on the washer cord. Still freaks out. Buzzing and dead after transmitting on any band with the amp. No other devices in the home are affected, even in the shack.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: AI5BC on December 30, 2022, 04:59:06 PM
WASHING MACHINE AC CIRCUITS DO NOT USE GFI'S. 
Wrong again pal, it is required. Read it and apologize to everyone, NEC 210.8(A)(10). Been that way since 2014. If you had said install between Line and Neutral is fine. All you are doing is injecting noise onto ground conductors where they do not belong. Your advice is dangerous intentionally injecting 60-Hz line current into equipment grounds. 


210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(10) Laundry areas.
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K6AER on December 30, 2022, 05:59:50 PM
WASHING MACHINE AC CIRCUITS DO NOT USE GFI'S. 
Wrong again pal, it is required. Read it and apologize to everyone, NEC 210.8(A)(10). Been that way since 2014. If you had said install between Line and Neutral is fine. All you are doing is injecting noise onto ground conductors where they do not belong. Your advice is dangerous intentionally injecting 60-Hz line current into equipment grounds. 


210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in 210.8(A)(1) through (10) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

(10) Laundry areas.


I will stand by my original posting.

GFI units to be installed in the laundry area are meant to protect outlets in a general wet area such as a sink. Like a kitchen or bathroom.  The exact definition can be reviewed at the link below.
https://www.electricallicenserenewal.com/Electrical-Continuing-Education-Courses/NEC-Content.php?sectionID=808.0

The gray area is what constitutes a wet area. It is generally considered GFI’s should not be installed in an area where the reset button is inaccessible.

This law is relatively new and is still under interpretation by local and state agencies. The actual law was generally introduced in 2017. Now there is no requirement for GFI’s in a laundry area for home build before 2017. This means 98% of homes will not have any issue with GFI’s on an electric dryer or washing machine.

As for my posting on the RF bypass capacitor, I will stand by my solution. The amount of 60 Hz AC ripple placed on the ground common return is minuscule compared to the IR drop from the motor and high current electronics. The requirement is to prevent RF from getting into the control circuitry. Placement of type 31 mix RF toroid’s to reduce common mode RF on the AC feed will never be as efficient as a couple of RF bypass capacitors.

Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: KW1L on December 31, 2022, 05:10:56 AM
Thank you all for sharing your advice.  I think I am going to buy a switch and turn off the top loading Maytag washing machine when done.  BTW-- The error indicator is reported by the LID LOCK LED in this model and requires rotation of the main dial for led read out of error code.  Paul

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M7V6U2Q/?coliid=I37KG5XRP3OACV&colid=2OSY3631KFUXU&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M7V6U2Q/?coliid=I37KG5XRP3OACV&colid=2OSY3631KFUXU&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it)

Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: K5TED on December 31, 2022, 07:39:17 AM
KWIL - I remembered I had a few Isobars in a box, dug in and found the two outlet one. Our washer outlet is a single, so stuck the Isobar in, marked a spot above the plate for the anchor lug, put in a drywall anchor, Isobar in, secured and fired up the shack, tested at 600w SSB and CW, not a peep from the Kenmore.

It too had the 'lid lock' thing first, then the scary growling sound from the innards on ensuing transmissions.

We'll see if it holds.

My Isobar is the older version of this one https://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-Protector-INSURANCE-ISOBLOK2-0/dp/B0000510R4/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=isobar&qid=1672501075&sr=8-5&th=1 
Title: Re: Washing Machine gets error
Post by: W1RKW on December 31, 2022, 12:56:50 PM
KW1L,  We have a Whirlpool which most likely uses the same or similar control board.  We don't have any issues with RFI but occasionally it would throw and error code which I attributed to our crappy power company and it's equipment. I did the same thing and created a switched outlet. If you search online for your model number, there is a tech sheet that lists all the error codes and how to retrieve them in addition to doing a reset.  If you don't have that, suggest you download it for future reference.