eHam
eHam Forums => VHF / UHF => Topic started by: NEVBEN on February 21, 2023, 04:04:23 PM
-
I need some new HT's for my family. We use 2m every day. Because we're all mobile (the kids are driving) and we only have one 'phone,' 2-meter is the backbone of our family communication. We're all licensed. We have mobile units in all the cars. We also have excellent repeater coverage, and we use 2m for hiking, bicycling, when walking the dog, backpacking, hunting, paddling, backcountry skiing and more.
For the past 12 years, we've been using Kenwood TH-K20A handhelds. They've met all our expectations. They're simple, easy to program, easy to clone configurations (we use 100 memories). The battery life has stayed decent. That's remarkable after 12 years. Because the NiMH batteries are returned the charger every day and they don't calendar age like Li-Ion. Well, apparently, they're discontinued.
I could try to buy them on eBay, classifieds or whatever second-hand. Or I could replace them with something new. I'd buy at least a pair of new ones and then another pair if they met all my expectations. I'd continue to use the remaining Kenwoods while I could.
I don't want expensive ($400-600) HT's with a lot of colorful features I don't use and that cost me too much if I lose one. We've lost one over the last 12 years. I am willing to pay for quality, durability, protection, power, and battery capacity. I don't mind Li-Ion as long as I can replace the batteries every few years with new ones, not NOS, and they still make them after 10 years.
Dual-band doesn't add anything for me. I just don't use 70cm or anything but 2m on an HT. I realize though that the better radios often are dual or more.
The Kenwoods are 7 oz. and small enough. I don't want anything bigger or much heavier or over 12 oz. Those old die cast Motorola beasts are great for tire chocks, but I don't want to carry one everyday.
Yaesu FT-4XR -- a little shorter, not too heavy at 8.8oz, with a more powerful battery, more audio power, low price. But looks like it doesn't even have IP54 rating. I don't need a particular specification, but I do need ruggedness. If one bites the dust, it's cheap to replace, but I'd hate to have it fail when I needed it backpacking or on a bicycle tour. It's also a direct conversion receiver. Is that the fad because of SDR or because of cheap Chinese radios?
Yaesu VX-6R -- claimed to be more rugged, IP67 rated, but $250. A Double-conversion Super-heterodyne receiver.
ICOM IC-V80 -- IP54 rated HT with a powerful battery. The Sport AA-battery version is super cheap, but the Li-ION battery pack doubles the price. This is double super het.
ICOM IC-T10 -- no general receive? direct conversion? This could have been an excellent Japanese-made HT with IP67 rating, but I want to receive Sheriff, Fire, and SAR frequencies.
ICOM IC-V86 -- another direct conversion receiver? Can we call this the Baofeng effect? It's got power and battery capacity, but does it perform?
Unless I learn something I don't know now, I'm leaning towards collecting more TH-K20A's from the classifieds or upgrading to the VX-6R. The newer models have some attraction, but I'm concerned they're built for profit margins rather than the pride of craftsmanship that used to be characteristic of amateur radio.
-
The Yaesu FT60R would be a good choice, good price, lithium battery and HRO still has them available on their page.
The Alinco DJ-VX50T maybe another lower cost option.
-
FT60 is obsolete. It's been around for 19 years and is about to be discontinued also. I'm not saying it's a bad radio, but I would be better off buying used Kenwoods in the obsolete model that I already have several of.
At some point, I have to transition to a new model. Maybe that will be the IC-T10. I'm wary that the new models are direct conversion rather than double super hets, but maybe that's just the future. Maybe they've got that tech so its better and not just cheaper. In my first message, I confused direct conversion with direct sampling (popular in SDR). With direct conversion, it may be that integrating the entire signal chain and digital calibration has made this a viable architecture nowadays.
It looks like the most affordable IC-T10's are coming from Japan (~$180 w/free shipping). I hope the RX coverage is complete if I get those.
-
FT60 is obsolete. It's been around for 19 years and is about to be discontinued also. I'm not saying it's a bad radio, but I would be better off buying used Kenwoods in the obsolete model that I already have several of.
At some point, I have to transition to a new model. Maybe that will be the IC-T10. I'm wary that the new models are direct conversion rather than double super hets, but maybe that's just the future. Maybe they've got that tech so its better and not just cheaper. In my first message, I confused direct conversion with direct sampling (popular in SDR). With direct conversion, it may be that integrating the entire signal chain and digital calibration has made this a viable architecture nowadays.
A purchase of any transceiver designed for the Japanese market is a mistake. Big mistake, as has been discussed on here numerous times. Different frequency ranges, sometimes different power levels, usually lower. If you are in the US, buy a radio designed for the US market and frequencies.
It looks like the most affordable IC-T10's are coming from Japan (~$180 w/free shipping). I hope the RX coverage is complete if I get those.
-
My BaoFeng is still working on the original battery 9 years later.
I wouldn't discount a proven model like the Yaesu FT-60.
-
I've got several Baofengs of various model numbers, I've also got a Yaesu ft-65. The ft65 costs 2 to 3 times the price of some of the baofengs, but the performance is better in all respects. If I could only keep 1, it would be the Yaesu ft65.
-
I've got several Baofengs of various model numbers, I've also got a Yaesu ft-65. The ft65 costs 2 to 3 times the price of some of the baofengs, but the performance is better in all respects. If I could only keep 1, it would be the Yaesu ft65.
Tend to agree on the lower end models. I bought the best model they sold at the time and the extra dollars have proven well worth it. Hence, why I steered him towards the FT-60 Yaesu.
For the record I owned a VX-5R Yaesu and it was total crap. No comparison to my Kenwood HT.
My HF rig is the FT-710 so I do like Yaesu.
-
I know you poo-poo'ed Motorola, but an HT-1250 or an XTS2500 might be worth looking into. They're not giant and heavy like XTS5000, MTS2000, or Sabers. They're only 11 oz w/out battery. And lithium batteries are available that weigh hardly anything.
-
You can get lithium batteries for your kenwoods. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I have a "fleet" of old motorola radios I've since bought or built lithium packs for and will continue to use them until they fail. My take on it is if the kenwoods work for you maybe pick up a spare radio or two, lithium packs for all and down the road you go.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
-
Unless I learn something I don't know now, I'm leaning towards collecting more TH-K20A's from the classifieds or upgrading to the VX-6R. The newer models have some attraction, but I'm concerned they're built for profit margins rather than the pride of craftsmanship that used to be characteristic of amateur radio.
Giving your callsign would be appreciated, unless you are a pirate ;D.
Many amateur hand held radios are really awkward to use, you mention the VX-6R, I had a VX-7R and it was plain awful, surprisingly when I sold it on fleabay it went for more than I paid for it. A friend also had one and he sold it too, they are difficult to use unless you keep the manual handy... and it has a lot of pages!
I don't agree with your long life statement for NiMh batteries, I haven't found them particularly good and I have experience of ordering thousands of NiMH and lithium batteries when I worked in the mobile radio industry, when used daily both types typically needed replacing after 18 months to 2 years. The lithium types have much greater capacity for a given size. I see the TH-K20A uses lithium batteries, the Kenwood USA site states the following; "This radio is supplied with a rechargeable Lithium-ion battery plus a convenient cradle charger"
The only downside to the TH-K20A is it isn't as water resistant as some, IP54 is only a light shower rating, if you operate in heavy rain it might suffer from water ingress. Some Icom and Yaesu models are capable of immersion in water.
73 Dave
-
I get the impression hams expect that when a radio is discontinued , meaning it's no longer in production, it automatically quits working. It's like assuming your car quits running once it's model year has passed.
If your radios are still functional but the batteries are reaching the end of their service life, all is not lost. Before investing money in new radios, look around to see if after-market batteries are available. As it turns out, replacement Lithium Ion batteries are available for the Kenwood TH-K20A. And as cheap as hams are, it's a more economical solution to the "problem."
https://batteriesamerica.com/search?type=product&q=Kenwood*+TH-K20A*
-
I have a "fleet" of old motorola radios I've since bought or built lithium packs for and will continue to use them until they fail.
How's the plastic holding up? ;)
-
FT-70 is a nice simple radio with Wiresx as a bonus, i run 2 of them
-
FT-70 is a nice simple radio with Wiresx as a bonus, i run 2 of them
I second this. You get to mess with Fusion at a low cost and the FM in the rig is great too. They are $175 ay DXE.
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/ysu-ft-70dr
-
I am just going to throw this out for consideration -- consider APRS capability in the HTs -- both TX and RX. Since you are using them for outdoor activities, it would make sense to have the TX capability so that tracking of the others is possible. RX is nice if you are in a place without cell phone capabilities.
That may imply a higher cost HT, but it may be worth considering.
-
Since the Kenwood's are still functioning and meet your requirements, I would look into having the battery packs re-built. There are companies that will "crack the case" and replace the cells... and at a reasonable price.
-Mike.
-
How's the plastic holding up? ;)
My MX360 is from 1985, my daily drive 2M Saber is 1989. A 1980's HT600 and some "newer" 1990's MT1000's on the shelf as well. Boxes of spare parts, I could keep these going a long time. Only issue is programming. I haven't seen an R1800 programmer for my MX in probably 25 years. The DOS PC I use for RSS is getting flaky. I might have to move up to radios that are less than 25 years old.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
-
Only issue is programming. I haven't seen an R1800 programmer for my MX in probably 25 years. The DOS PC I use for RSS is getting flaky. I might have to move up to radios that are less than 25 years old.
The knobs rotted off my Sabers and MTS2000s years ago. Now I'm losing PTT buttons and knobs on my XTS5000s.
I still have a working R1800. I only have the MSF program and adapter for it, though. Let me know if you need a 2732A burned ;)
A couple years ago, the HDD died in my Compaq Portable 386. I put in a CF to IDE adapter and slapped in a 512MB CF card. Boots instantly now. While I was at it, I changed the battery and added a sidecar to put in an ISA network card. Now I don't have to worry about the floppy dying. I could always pull the CF to add data, too, but that requires taking the case apart.
I just programmed a couple of Syntor X9000s last year. Everything still worked perfectly. Gotta stay ahead of the curve and keep your stuff maintained. There's always a way.
-
I'm impressed, most folks have walked away from this stuff by now. It's rare enough to meet someone that knows what an R1800 is, much less has one. Half the channels in my MX have become useless over time, but there's some simplex in there I'll use, just to show the thing works. It's my "hamfest radio", to show the youngsters what a manly radio looks like :D . The battery pack on that thing is bigger than most radios today.
My RSS PC is a toshiba 286 with two 720K floppy drives. Boots DOS 3.3. I know there's updated RSS for some of my stuff that will run on a 486 but there's some that won't, like my MCX1000's. Practically speaking there's nothing my circle M radios do that can't be replaced with a modern japanese radio but it's still kinda cool to run this vintage stuff.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
-
I also have one of those Epson programmers. I never did get it to work. The only working cassette tape I have is for Mostars, but I don't even have one of those.
I think I may have the tape for a Syntor X9000, but my old Compaq will do those. I tried powering it up last year, but the internal battery is kaput, and it wouldn't even turn on.
-
I have no problems with the Kenwoods' batteries. I only mentioned that after 12 years they are still going strong. My problem is that I need more radios than I have.
I used APRS extensively years ago. It's a compelling feature for sure, especially in light of the fact that a great deal of the frequency of phone communication is advising of location. I have a couple of issues with it. Foremost, I prefer not to be tracked and to have my track publicly available. Second, it can preclude vital status information. Without APRS, it's incumbent upon parties to initiate phone communication and report their location and status and that simultaneously creates an opportunity to send intelligence they may not have been able to receive at other times when out of range. In essence, the lack of APRS reinforces the need for good communication. Having the feature doesn't prohibit good communication, but it does at least double the cost of every HT with it. It also ties up a transmitter on mobile units.
I'm not aware of anyone using wiresx. I have no use for it. It's mostly notorious for needing to be turned off so it doesn't obliterate the beginning of every tx with a DTMF tone.
-
I have no problems with the Kenwoods' batteries. I only mentioned that after 12 years they are still going strong. My problem is that I need more radios than I have.
I used APRS extensively years ago. It's a compelling feature for sure, especially in light of the fact that a great deal of the frequency of phone communication is advising of location. I have a couple of issues with it. Foremost, I prefer not to be tracked and to have my track publicly available. Second, it can preclude vital status information. Without APRS, it's incumbent upon parties to initiate phone communication and report their location and status and that simultaneously creates an opportunity to send intelligence they may not have been able to receive at other times when out of range. In essence, the lack of APRS reinforces the need for good communication. Having the feature doesn't prohibit good communication, but it does at least double the cost of every HT with it. It also ties up a transmitter on mobile units.
I'm not aware of anyone using wiresx. I have no use for it. It's mostly notorious for needing to be turned off so it doesn't obliterate the beginning of every tx with a DTMF tone.
That's not WIRES-X. That was Yaesu's old, not very successful internet linking protocol, which is no longer around. It's unfortunate they used the same name for their digital linking system. The reason the old radios did what you describe was because made turning the function on and off way too easy. It was one button on the radio that was too easy to push accidentally.
WIRES-X is an entirely different animal that requires a System FusionĀ® radio and special procedures to access.
-
So what is that? Digital modulation? I would be willing to use a digital mode instead of FM, but I would have to upgrade my mobile units also including the one I use as a base station. I wonder how much advantage there would be gained. I do challenge 2m propagation with over-the-horizon situations. It works, but can be sketchy. I'm skeptical that FSK is going to improve that because it's a propagation issue and not a noise or SNR issue.
-
So what is that? Digital modulation? I would be willing to use a digital mode instead of FM, but I would have to upgrade my mobile units also including the one I use as a base station. I wonder how much advantage there would be gained. I do challenge 2m propagation with over-the-horizon situations. It works, but can be sketchy. I'm skeptical that FSK is going to improve that because it's a propagation issue and not a noise or SNR issue.
System fusionĀ® is Yaesu's digital protocol that is their answer to D-Star. Despite the popularity of DMR (mostly due to relatively cheap radios from China), Fusion is much easier to use as the radios can switch back and forth from analog to digital by just pressing one button on the radio and can use the same frequencies rather than having frequencies programmed as either digital or analog. WIRES-X is their version of sending the Fusion digital signal out over the internet, much as D-Star and DMR can do along with analog linking like AllStar.
I have several Fusion radios but have never gotten into WIRES-X so I can't talk much about it.
-
"Digital modes" encompasses a way of using radio vs just the modulation scheme. All the various types offer routing and control over IP, with each vendor offering their own flavor. If this kind of operating doesn't mesh with your intended use, then it offers no real benefit.
I decidedly favor FM over digital for simplex use even within a closed system. Besides the incompatibility between vendors, the "digital cliff" where signals become unintelligible is accentuated with the weak signals often encountered in simplex operation. A weak FM signal can often be copied through the noise and flutter, the digital radio will be silent. A potential benefit of having a set of digital radios offers some degree of privacy from eavesdropping (mode obscurity) but that's a pretty specialized circumstance in ham practice.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
-
I acquired a VX-6R. I was impressed with the design. Although the VX-6R was available 12 years ago when I bought my TH-K20A's in quantity, I passed on it because I didn't need tri-band, or even dual-band, and I could get two of the Kenwoods for the price of one VX-6R. I still have some of the Kenwoods and I'm still pleased with them -- nothing has ever disappointed me about them other than their being discontinued so that I cannot acquire several more without scrounging the used ads and waiting.
The VX-6R is a lot more radio, but it comes at a cost. Each HT is $250, Yaesu spare batteries are $80, charging cradles are not included but cost $40 extra, I have to buy a new programming cable, and the programming software isn't provided by Yaesu the way Kenwood provides software at no cost. None of these are problems that can't be solved by spending more money.
The reason I thought the VX-6R was worth paying more for was not the additional bands (although I think the wideband RX is cool, I have no use for anything shorter than 2m), but the rugged die-cast case, the IPX67 waterproof rating, and the compact form-factor that fits into a pouch with the antenna and speaker/mic cable coming out in the same direction. I appreciate this last feature for backpacking and bicycle touring.
I just received the VX-6R today. I do not yet have any accessories. I programmed a few memory channels using the keypad. I'm going to be using this HT for about a month and if it works out, I'll spend the additional $200 on an extra battery, charging cradle, speaker/mic, programming cable and software. Then I will hope to buy two more VX-6's with batteries, cradles, and speaker/mics. Once I have several of these, combined with my remaining Kenwoods, I'll hope they all work out for at least the next 12 years.