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eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: AC1LC on March 05, 2023, 01:43:30 PM

Title: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 05, 2023, 01:43:30 PM
I decided that I'm going to learn Morse code so I can use CW.  I've signed up for LCWO.net where they use the Koch method - which starts you out trying to read 20wpm.  I do OK on the Morse Machine where I can control the speed by how fast I type in the letter on the keyboard, but when I try to use the lesson where I try to keep up and type the letters at their speed I can make it for about 5 seconds before I'm completely lost.

I tuned in a couple frequencies on 10m this afternoon to listen to some live CW.  They're no where as fast as what the Koch lessons are pushing.

So, do I really need to keep at the 20wpm speed....and get frustrated and not learn anything and give up, or, if I learn at 10 or 15wpm so at least I can communicate in code is that acceptable?  I'm never going to be a speed demon at it, I know that already because my brain doesn't function fast enough but I am trying to learn the letters by sound, not by counting dahs and dits.

I also loaded an app on my iphone where I can listen to the letters (I block out the graphic showing the dashes and dots with my thumb, so it will help me learn them by sound.

I really want to learn code, but it's extremely frustrating not to mention stressful.

What say you CW mavens out there?
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N8NK on March 05, 2023, 01:59:20 PM
Hi there, and I'm SO HAPPY for you! You will not regret learning CW. It's been my best friend for 48 years, mostly at the QRP power level.
I've used CW 99% of my 48 years as a ham, and lately love little more than to encourage others to learn it. I've posted quite a bit of hints, lessons, tips, etc on my YouTube channel if you'ld care to watch. I've talked about character speed vs overall sentence speed, missing characters, etc etc.
Dear ham-
After 48 years using CW 99% of the time, let me be honest with you, and don't let anyone convince you otherwise:
20 WPM, for me, is the perfect speed to copy. Yes, I can copy faster. 35 is pushing it for me, but if the conversation is pretty typical, I'll get most of it. And yet-
At the age of 63, SENDING at 20 WPM is about my limit. And it's not about forming the characters with my Iambic paddles and keyer- it's that I'm hard pressed to think that fast. And I've always been this way. Yep, I can copy 35. But my sending? Let's talk about that:
In normal CW conversation, you don't send like a machine. Nobody does. If they did, I'd get bored and go away. What do you do? You take thinking gaps and breaks.. you send the repeated hyphen -  -  -  as many as you need to catch up mentally -  -  - and you rely on the good old AS sent together. I've done youtube videos on the AS. lol. That's an A run into the S, and it means you're thinking. Send as many as you need. The op on the other end likes it. You'll sound human and interesting.
Moral of my babble: Nobody sends like a machine at 20 WPM. I bet if I'm in a rag chew at 25, my overall speed for any given sentence is 15.
Here's a sample of what I've posted to YouTube. My channel is NOT monetized and rarely do I use outtro music which results in ad placement. I'm in it to share the fun:
First CW QSO - part 1 of 4 - Abbreviations You'll Use + Tips
https://youtu.be/507p5-8IELQ
Take care and..
GL OM - - - CUL es TU de N8NK dit dit
(Chuck)
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N8NK on March 05, 2023, 02:10:11 PM
You inspire me Sir.
Tonight I'm making a video just on this topic. I'm going to be talking specifically about 'sending speed', use of the hyphen, and use of the character AS (normally printed with a bar over them).
I am then going to inlude a mod that I've just done to my awful MFJ-564 Iambic paddles to make them magnetic return. They went from awful and mushy to snappy. No tools needed.
Chuck, N8NK, on YouTube as
N8NK QRP
Be well all...
dit dit
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WO7R on March 05, 2023, 02:22:01 PM
It depends on what you want to do with it.

Generally, DXing largely takes place between 18 and 25 WPM.  Now, you don't need to carry on weighty conversations at that speed to manage it, but it sure helps.  To be able to at least "sprint" a callsign and a few key phrases at 25 WPM will materially matter.  There are also faster operators than that, and you may yet learn to recognize your call sign upwards of 35 WPM, who knows, it's up to you.

Other interests may not require such speeds, but the vast, vast majority of my CW is on "name, rank, and serial number" level DX or also the similar contest QSOs.

You'll find there is a different level of investment in learning to "sprint" like this as opposed to carrying on general conversations, so it may not be as daunting as you currently might think.

The old test checkpoints were set for good human reasons.  If you get yourself to 13 WPM (don't bother with 5), you'll soon be at 18 or so.  To get to one will get you to the other.  Get just over 20 and you can very likely get to at least 25.  But, if you get to 18, you might find you can do the 20 to 25 for at least some DXing and casual contesting at least.  You can then let your speed build up from there.

Also, some DX will slow down to 18 for you.

To get to 13/18, you'll have to recognize CW as individual songs, not discrete dots and dashes. To get to 20, you'll have to be able to hold one or two previous letters in your head while you recognize the next "song".  They are slightly different skills. And, yes, it is work to acquire such skill.  But, the payoffs are great.  You can still work people on CW that you won't get on phone.

Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W7CXC on March 05, 2023, 02:45:47 PM
An opinion..... Learn the characters at a 20 wpm speed even if the spacing between characters makes it say 10 wpm. 73's
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC2EU on March 05, 2023, 02:54:39 PM
Yes, you do!
it trains you to hear the rhythm or the  sounds rather than dots and dashes.

I'm relatively new at CW, myself and i know what you mean about your brain hurting! I used to break out in a sweat! It get s better with practice.
DO 15-20 minutes a night and you will be amazed how it comes together week by week.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W6MK on March 05, 2023, 03:32:39 PM
So, do I really need to keep at the 20wpm speed....and get frustrated and not learn anything and give up, or, if I learn at 10 or 15wpm so at least I can communicate in code is that acceptable?  I'm never going to be a speed demon at it, I know that already because my brain doesn't function fast enough but I am trying to learn the letters by sound, not by counting dahs and dits.
No you do NOT need to keep at the 20 wpm speed. The Koch method may work for some people but it won't work for all.

Some people quickly and easily recognize rhythmic patterns at relatively high speeds: Morse characters or triplets in music (three notes in the same time as two are usually in the piece).

You may not be able to immediately recognize Morse characters at 20 wpm but may find it very easy to do so at 10 or 15 wpm. If this is so, and you can easily discover this, then continue your practicing at whatever speed works for you.

Many of us in the old days learned Morse Code in all sorts of ways that are considered "wrong" today: we counted dits; we visualized long and short sounds in characters, etc. Eventually, and rather quickly because we weren't told we were doing things "wrong" our speed increased and we went, automatically, from counting dits or dahs to hearing the overall sounds of characters.

The human brain is an organ that LEARNS AUTOMATICALLY." If you start out learning the "wrong" way, you brain AUTOMATICALLY will change how it works so that you learn to hear much more efficiently.

Think of it this way: you are building something which requires counting of groups of fasteners: nails, screws or machine nuts. At first you count them out: one, two, three, four, five. Very quickly, however, you learn what five nails, five screws or five machine nuts look like in a group. You no longer have to count. Same with Morse Code.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 05, 2023, 05:33:39 PM
So, do I really need to keep at the 20wpm speed....and get frustrated and not learn anything and give up, or, if I learn at 10 or 15wpm so at least I can communicate in code is that acceptable?
If you learn the character SOUNDS at 20 wpm, it will keep you from counting dots and dashes at 10 wpm  :-)  Being able to count dots will keep you at that slow speed for a LOONG time :-(

CW is sooo much more fun when you just hear it and know what it is, rather than struggling to interpret every combination at 10 wpm.  Let it flow over you at 20 wpm and you will learn it faster!

I would guess that the people you heard going a lot slower are using straight keys.  Unfortunately, that forces you to send slow, which doesn't help your receiving speed increase :-( 
Using a straight key doesn't teach you (or force you) to learn correct timing when sending, either.  But that is another topic for when you have learned most of the characters :-)

Glenn AE0Q
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W7XTV on March 05, 2023, 06:25:40 PM
An opinion..... Learn the characters at a 20 wpm speed even if the spacing between characters makes it say 10 wpm. 73's

That's how we learned it back in the "stone age," where the characters were sent at 20 wpm and the spacing was changed for 5 and 13 wpm.  It was also how the FCC code tests were administered.

To this day, even though I haven't operated CW since the early 1990s, I can still copy 13 wpm, and sometimes a bit faster, thanks to that method.  I really have no desire to use it, but you never know when it might come in handy, so I keep my code copying skills up, just in case.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K9AO on March 05, 2023, 06:45:22 PM
No. That is not how the FCC tests were administered. When I passed my 13 wpm and 20 wpm sending and receiving tests at an FCC field office they were sent with the correct spacing.

One thing to remember that while the Koch method gets you to not count dots and dashes and that is absolutely essential to learning the code correctly, there really are several brain copying plateaus that have to be passed. There were always plateaus at 7 to 8 wpm, 11 to 12, and 15 to 16 wpm or thereabouts back in the day when the code was sent with the correct spacing for the speed. This is because there really are different brain skills to be learned to copy at these speeds. You bypass these with the Koch method, but if you want to be able to copy at any speed you will have to work through them eventually. Koch gets you a license. It does not teach you the code at 5 to whatever your top eventually ends up being. Properly sent code with element spacing appropriately set for the speed is music to the ears. Learning to copy at these speeds and the correct spacing is worth doing.

You are doing fine now. Just get on the air at a slower speed and have plenty of QSOs. The rest will come with practice and soon enough you'll be where you want to be.

Remember that copying to paper (do this first) is a separate skill from copying to a keyboard and this is a separate skill from copying in your head. You can do any of these, but recognize the different skill and don't be hard on yourself.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WB1ANA on March 05, 2023, 07:37:21 PM
I'm happy to hear that you're taking up CW - you won't regret it.  It was my only mode of communication as a Novice back in 1977 and for me it was exciting to communicate that way.  I got away from it for years after I upgraded to Advanced, but last year I got back into it with a vengeance and now I rarely use SSB.

Learning code with the letters sent at the higher speed is a good idea and will help you become more proficient faster.  As far as getting on the air, making contacts, rag chewing, etc, I've found that the average code speed runs between 13-20 WPM and that's it.  The super fast ones out there are not as prevalent.

Join the SKCC group - it fosters CW and rewards you for making solid contacts.  I'm hooked and have been having a ball with it.

Lots of luck and see you on the air!

Tom/WB1ANA
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W7XTV on March 05, 2023, 08:16:39 PM
No. That is not how the FCC tests were administered. When I passed my 13 wpm and 20 wpm sending and receiving tests at an FCC field office they were sent with the correct spacing.

Maybe it depends on when and where the tests were administered.  My Novice test, administered by my local ham club in 1970, did exactly what I said they did, because that is how we were taught.  A year later, when I took my General test in front of the FCC in Indianapolis, IIRC they also sent the code at 20 wpm with the proper spacing for 13.  I don't remember the letters being sent any slower than 20.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W0RW on March 06, 2023, 01:12:57 AM
Check out "High Speed Morse".
https://www.eham.net/article/41222 (https://www.eham.net/article/41222)

Paul  w0rw
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: KH6AQ on March 06, 2023, 04:14:13 AM
AC1LC, welcome to the wonderful world of CW. Once you get to where you can copy letters well you can focus on the type of operating you might like to do. QSOs, conversational and contesting. For QSO practice listen to QSOs on the air and make some of your own. For conversational CW -- long strings of text -- you might like online W1AW code practice files. And for contests Morse Runner is excellent.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WW5F on March 06, 2023, 05:07:23 AM
Wow.  It doesn't look like you *want* to learn Morse code (for the joy of it!).  It sounds like, "I decided that I'm going to get a colonoscopy so I can find out if I have cancer or not.  Do I really need to do it next week?"

Simple answer to your question:  No, you don't have to use the Koch method.  There are at least a couple other ways to learn morse code.  Use your favorite search engine and enter "methods or strategies to learn Morse code".

It's just that the Koch method has demonstrated to be more successful than others.

After that comes words instead of characters.

But today's Morse code operator is usually a "599 TU" operator, so just learning contest exchanges and copying call signs might be all you "need" today.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WO7R on March 06, 2023, 05:12:29 AM
Quote
Many of us in the old days learned Morse Code in all sorts of ways that are considered "wrong" today: we counted dits; we visualized long and short sounds in characters, etc. Eventually, and rather quickly because we weren't told we were doing things "wrong" our speed increased and we went, automatically, from counting dits or dahs to hearing the overall sounds of characters.

But consider our objectives back then:  Licenses were based on three different code speeds:

1)  5 WPM for Novice
2) 13 WPM for General
3) 20 WPM for Extra

A lot of people learned code "the wrong way" because they did not, at least for a long while, have it as an actual objective to go all the way to 20.

More power to you if you "naturally" moved between these levels.  I did not and many, many, many did not.  The levels were chosen to make that, in fact, unnatural.

It used to be (don't think there's much of it now) a lot of people in the Novice HF CW bands, that were loping along at 5 to 12 WPM.  Even Extras, in a kind mood, would tune into those band segments and work you at those speeds.

The different speeds were set for different ways the brain recognizes code.  5 to 12 is a speed where one can recognize code by listening to individual dots and dashes.  One can learn to recognize code that way at such speeds.

Many of us did so, because learning code, at any speed, is hard and there was real value in learning 5 WPM.  You needed it to do as much as talk 2m FM on a repeated back then.  If you had no objective but getting licensed, it could make a lot of sense to learn code at 5 WPM.  That was enough to get you to Tech and if you didn't care about HF, that got you into a lot of things (this far back 2m FM was a much bigger deal than it is today).  There were (probably still are) a lot of guys that turned 6m into a sort of specialty band and refused to use code because 5 WPM was just a way to get that microphone in one's hand.

However, if one does that (and a great many of us did), one then had to unlearn counting dots and dashes because the brain is such that you can't reliably recognize Morse Code at 13 (certainly not 18) by picking out individual dots and dashes any more.  That's darn near a human universal and, in fact, the three speeds were chosen because that is so.

And, it was a struggle for many of us (me included) precisely because we had to unlearn what got us to 5.

Getting from 13 to 20 was a slightly different struggle.  At that point, one had already abandoned individual dots and dashes, but the requirement to at least sometimes "copy back" -- remember a letter or two while decoding the current one -- was a different struggle.  But, once again, there was a certain amount of unlearning to be done.  I know several people that just couldn't get past the 20 barrier.  There were people suggesting, back in the day, that it was because they didn't go straight to 20 -- that is, they learned code for the FCC/VEC test and not really as a thing in itself.  I don't know since I didn't take that road.  But it might be true.

Well, in any case, I did all three but only because my rationale changed over time and because, well, I wanted the license and 5 is fairly easy to learn.  But, then I wanted HF and so I struggled, really struggled, for 13.  Doing so, it got me to Advanced and most of the privileges.  Then, a few years later, I decided I needed 20 for my DXing.  There was a lot of DX to be had at 14.024 in those days. 

I was at an Advanced level for quite a while and had almost all the frequency privileges.  Had I not gotten into DXing in such a big way (or if I had put up a bigger station) I might have stayed at 13 to 18 indefinitely.  A lot of hams did back then.

I also, frankly, dropped out of Morse code for a while when I finally got to 13 and did a lot of my beginner DXing with Phone only.  Then,  I wised up.  Then, 20 became the goal and not just to get a license.

This is why I asked what the goal was.  We forget, now, that a lot of people hated code that was force-fed to them as the price of getting a license.  Such people learned code at 5 or 13 just to get the license they wanted and did little code after that in many, many cases.  People don't want to admit that was so these days, but it was so.

There used to be Slow Speed Traffic Handling nets to accommodate the many who couldn't or wouldn't do the work to go to 20.  They could still contribute, just at a slower speed.

A lot of hams did stop at 13, at least until they took up DXing in a serious way and figured out that 20 to 25 WPM was a kind of secret society to success for modest stations.

But, when we dropped the code tests, we also largely dropped the rationale for some of these old, slower speeds.

In 2023, I would advise precisely nobody to learn the code at 5 WPM and I don't think many do.  There is no longer a purpose for it. 

The salient question is whether to try to go straight to 20.  It's hard, harder than 13, but if you do it, then you won't have to break whatever habits form in the human brain when you do 13 but don't do the work to learn 20.

There are, presumably, more mental tricks required to operate about 25.  I never learned them.  But I do know that at that level, you aren't writing anything down.  You are hearing and comprehending whole phrases, not just individual letters.  It becomes an actual language.

So, whether it was to get a Novice or Tech back in the day or high speed CW ragchewing today, the speed one aims for has to do with what the objectives are.

As far as I can make out, if you only care about DXing or contesting, 18 to 25 is a good objective.  If you want real conversation, you might want more than that.  Both for the sheer speed of it and also for the stamina (for lack of a better term) to go beyond the name, rank, serial number level exchanges.

But either one of those really sets the minimum bar at 20.  There may be some hidden activities, unknown to me, where 13 to 18 WPM still reigns supreme.  I just don't know what they are.  I would be very surprised to find places where 5 to 12 WPM is still a highly populated place.  Maybe a few still hang out in the old Novice segments -- I haven't listened in, so it could still be a thing.  But, I doubt it.

Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 06, 2023, 05:29:21 AM
Wow.  It doesn't look like you *want* to learn Morse code (for the joy of it!).  It sounds like, "I decided that I'm going to get a colonoscopy so I can find out if I have cancer or not.  Do I really need to do it next week?"

Simple answer to your question:  No, you don't have to use the Koch method.  There are at least a couple other ways to learn morse code.  Use your favorite search engine and enter "methods or strategies to learn Morse code".

It's just that the Koch method has demonstrated to be more successful than others.

After that comes words instead of characters.

But today's Morse code operator is usually a "599 TU" operator, so just learning contest exchanges and copying call signs might be all you "need" today.

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression...I really do want to learn code, I want to expand my amateur radio operational capabilities and I don't like staying static, I always want to learn more and become better at whatever I'm doing.  If it came across wrong I'm sorry about that...I really, really do want to learn Morse code.  It's just that the 20wpm rate with the Koch method doesn't seem to "click" with my brain.  That's why I was looking for input from experienced operators. 

That being said, after reading everything everyone wrote, I'm going to keep working at it.  I'm working on learning the letters by sound, not by counting dahs and dits.  I know it's going to take time but I'm determined that I'm going to get there.  I think back to my high school days when I took typing.  They wouldn't let the boys in home economics class and typing was the only other class with a 10 to 1 female to male ratio...I believe the military calls it a target rich environment, so I signed up for typing.  Anyway, I learned to type 40wpm on a manual typewriter and actually got up to 60wpm on an electric typewriter.  I can type on a computer faster than I can think sometimes.  But, we started out just hitting two keys on the typewriter, then three, then four. I guess I'll apply the same method to learning Morse code.  Learn a couple letters by sound, then three, then four and just keep at it.  I get a kick out of some of the Youtube videos I've seen, you know, the "Learn Morse Code in 15 minutes" ones. 

I'm not interested in contesting, that's not why I got into amateur radio.  I want to be able to rag chew or in a worst case scenario be able to send legible messages for EmComm (I'm a member of my local ARES unit).  I know there are plenty of other modes available but I'm a bit of a traditionalist for a lot of things...like pickup trucks and Jeeps should have two doors...anything more and it's a minivan or station wagon!

Again, thanks for all the input.  I'm heading back and strain the brain some more and continue the quest.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WO7R on March 06, 2023, 05:58:08 AM
Whatever your target speed (and, painfully, I did learn at several levels, not recommended :) ) the only constant was:  Do something every night.

Most authorities recommended a minimum of 20 minutes a day (evening realistically).  However, I found that there were busy days where I couldn't manage it.  I had a job, kids, etc.

If I managed something, even five or ten minutes, then the fall off for "slacking" was always less.

Persistence, in my case anyway, seemed to be the most single, critical factor.  It should be a short but intensive little period of our lives.  A few really can't learn past certain levels of speed.  But, for the vast majority, persistence is the one constant you'll hear about when you talk to people about their learning experience of this.  Especially those that got to the end goal.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N8TGQ on March 06, 2023, 06:14:13 AM
I have worked CW QRP for 30 years and seldom go above 15 WPM. There are plenty of people to talk with at those speeds.

I know at least 10 hams who have spent YEARS trying for 20 WPM. But they're too embarassed to get on the air at anything less. WTH?

If you know the characters, get on the air and have fun! Even if you have to write everything out to start. It's much easier to get better at things if you're having fun and enjoying yourself.

It's a hobby, folks, not a doctoral thesis. It's supposed to lower your stress and relax you. Quality over quantity.

I'll be looking for you on the air at whatever speed you're comforatable at. I will slow down to your speed, but I don't do "599-73" QSOs. So you'll have plenty ot time to practice, make mistakes and get comforatable.

Have fun!
Rick N8TGQ
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K5LXP on March 06, 2023, 06:37:23 AM
No disagreement with any of the comments posted thus far.  Lots of experience speaking.  I learned the "wrong" way too, suffering through the "plateaus" of 5, 13 and 20wpm.  I can't unlearn it to test the theory but it sure seems to make sense to just learn it at useful speeds.  I remember as a novice/tech how painful it was to have a QRS QSO.  Just exchanging basic info took forever.  Not that every QSO has to be QRQ but I know for sure I wouldn't want to be stuck at QRS.

My comment is to learn CW how you intend to use it.  Maybe your goal is to be a traffic handler and type all your QSO's while sitting in front of a computer.  If it's not, I think you're training yourself to do something that won't do you a lot of good.  I can type 100 wpm and am comfortable at 35 wpm head copy.  But even when I know what's being sent, "copying behind", etc, I vapor lock when trying to type CW.  Maybe with sufficient practice I might get it down but then what's the point - I never copy QSO's even with a pen, why should I with a keyboard?  I operate QRP portable a lot, and my favorite is mobile CW.  Neither is conducive to a keyboard and that's when the merits of "conversational" CW kicked in.  By operating in environments where I can't write anything, and at speeds where you start to hear words and not just letters, the door opened wide.  So all the rote training and practice with software might be a good foundation, but if you really want to learn how to copy fast CW, you start listening to fast CW.  What I would recommend is participating in some CW contests where the calls and exchanges are coming fast and furious.  I also used an MP3 player sending QRQ plain text while I was out and about doing whatever.  Way faster than I could easily copy, like 45wpm.  Over time you catch yourself hearing words just like you don't have to think about typing the word "and" and "the".  The more you do it, the more words you'll recognize, and the more fun you'll have.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K0UA on March 06, 2023, 08:06:23 AM
As an Amateur that started learning at 5 wpm and counting the dits and dahs, especially the numbers, I can definitely tell you that you will be handicapped for the rest of your life. I am. I went up the CW ladder slowly, and hated every rung. No, hated is not a strong enough word, I LOATHED CW.

 When I passed Extra in 1975 with GREAT difficulty, and by the skin of my teeth, I vowed to NEVER listen to or work CW again. Great,  I made it to the promised land, and intended to never look back. Microphones and keyboards for me. BUT CW is a necessary evil. You HAVE to work it for some of the best DX. I have NEVER been comfortable with working CW during a ragchew. I have done it, and I do it sometimes, but that doesn't meant I have to like it. I have been a CW cripple for over 50 years.

I can copy my callsign at 35 wpm and 5NN sounds great to me. That and little else is all you need to know to work the DX.  That and EU and UP and NA and AS and a few more. You have to think of these things as words, You just have to. Your old "bad habits" of slow speed will crop up all of the time. It is like a "flinch" in shooting, once you have a "flinch" it is very hard to get rid of it.  Learning slow speed CW is a mistake. I am living proof.

Now the good news:. I have been getting better!  Not good, but better. The key is practice. The more CW I do, even like working POTA CW stations, the better I get and the more the hadicap fades. Maybe by the time I am SK, I might be tolerable.  ;D

Oh, and if you wanted my advice on straight keys and bugs,, my advice would be to throw them away. Especially bugs. The straight keys can be useful for sending a continuous carrier for tune up of amps and tuners. Yes, I can send pretty good code at maybe up to close to 15 wpm on a straight key, but it sucks, bigtime. Learn to send on a good set of paddles from the get go. They are much easier on your hands, and the "flow" and automatic sending is so much easier and your sending will be SO much better.

Practice just enough on a straight key to be able to send SOS on a couple of bare wires if you are ever locked in the trunk of an automobile.   ;D

Now you know how I feel about my lifelong handicap, my struggle to do better, and My ideas on how to learn. Take if for what you will. But it has been my struggle. It would profit you to avoid my folly.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K3JLS on March 06, 2023, 08:16:42 AM
Make a habit of listening to the W1AW code practice sessions and - when you are working in the shack - leave the rig on tuned to a CW conversation - this worked for me when I was 15, and I'm sure it will work for you, as well.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: LNXAUTHOR on March 06, 2023, 01:42:03 PM
my story:

1. passed 5 wpm element to get my General and on HF
2. 20 years go by
3. got ticked off at myself last summer and said to myself that i wanted to do CW
4. immersed in learning to copy at 20 wpm
5. practiced sending 5-letter code groups at 15 wpm
6. made first CW contact last December (POTA exchange format)
7. now only do CW for the most part
8. can now recognize and make exchanges even at the low-signal levels
9. starting to recognize words
10. still working on proper sending/spacing
11. next hurdle is copying callsigns correctly

this is only over the last three months and after learning letters, numbers, and a few select symbols (period, slash, question mark, etc.)

i am very grateful to all other CW ops; i try to listen, use patience, not zero-beat ops, never tune up on a freq without making sure it is clear, not jump in over other ops, wait until a small pileup clears, and try to gauge the other op's style

i do have a heck of a time though with some straight keyers, bugs, and bad CW tones... then i just spin the dial

good luck on your efforts... i have found CW to be very rewarding... it truly is magic, and i am making more contacts every time i go out, even in lousy band conditions...

btw, all my operating is QRP /
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WA3SKN on March 06, 2023, 03:07:00 PM
You don't HAVE to learn Morse code, but I recommend it.
And you do not HAVE to learn fast CW, but it is nice to.  Not everyone can or will learn by the Koch method.
"And there is a joy to operating slow CW that is very satisfying.
However, remember that the original reason for fast CW was the commercial side got paid by the message... so faster CW meant MORE MONEY!  And they were measured by number of messages sent.
So learn it, enjoy it... no matter the speed.  After all, the limiting factor has always been the ability on the RECEIVE side, not transmit!

-Mike.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 06, 2023, 03:38:36 PM
OK, I just tried something.  I'm using LCWO.net and the program sends the letters at 20wpm speed.  I was having a terrible time trying to keep up but I just found the adjustment so add a bit more space between the letters while they are still being transmitted at 20wpm speed.  That made a world of difference.  I'm able to hear the letter sounds better now and I can actually recognize them in the correct order.  I figure I'll start reducing the spacing as I get more comfortable.  This minor change definitely reduced the frustration/stress level.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC2EU on March 06, 2023, 04:41:17 PM
OK, I just tried something.  I'm using LCWO.net and the program sends the letters at 20wpm speed.  I was having a terrible time trying to keep up but I just found the adjustment so add a bit more space between the letters while they are still being transmitted at 20wpm speed.  That made a world of difference.  I'm able to hear the letter sounds better now and I can actually recognize them in the correct order.  I figure I'll start reducing the spacing as I get more comfortable.  This minor change definitely reduced the frustration/stress level.

There ya go!
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W1VT on March 06, 2023, 04:53:55 PM
How many hams you can work depends on both your location and station.  It is far easier to find stations in New England than Hawaii!
A QRP station will find it tougher to find stations they can work than someone with a high, full sized antenna, and a 100W radio.

Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K4WH on March 06, 2023, 05:25:46 PM
Raul.  Actually, you are doing pretty good.  Like someone else said, do it because you like it, and just find the place that works good for you.  CW can be a language of its own that when sent well is beautiful.  I think that today everyone wants to be a speed demon.  People just try to send as fast as they can and run all the characters together hard for lots of people to copy.  DX and contest stations are trying to send so fast its hard to get their call correct.  To be honest I will sometimes use the CW copy feature on my Kenwood 890S or use FLDIGI to copy the really fast stations.  I also have a Hamcrafters K44 reader.

There are different methods to use for learning.  I never tried the Koch, have heard of it.  I used the Farnsworth.  Back in 1980 a friend of mine made up Farnsworth cassette tapes for me recording of an AEA keyer.  I was 31 then and had been a SWL listener since my teens and had tried to learn CW code on and off.

As K9AO and others have pointed out there are real mental barriers at certain code speeds.  I have read old articles that mentioned that the REALLLY old, old timers got the FCC years back, to go to 13 WPM because they knew it would wash out a lot of people. I think they had wanted 12 wpm.  I always found 15 easier than 13, and 22 easier than 20. 

If you can find a program will show the character on a screen that will help.  Also sending.  I would bet that if you get an old fashion straight key, and practice sending nice and slow you will also bring up your copy speed.  Send anything out of a book or magazine, don’t forget numbers.  Find a youtube video that has a person sending with a straight key to get the since of the rhythm.  Get that for the rhythm for each letter and number and it will stick with you.  Your head will connect with what you hand is doing and the sound it makes.  You will still find Keyers made by “AEA” for sale use. There are several on Ebay right now for sale under 60 dollars ( the Morsematic model ).  They have a Farnsworth trainer built in.  If the seller does not have a manual, they are on line.  You can set up your Farnsworth training as you like.  Had mine for over 30 yrs now, will never sell it.

Don’t get frustrated.  Maybe take a break.  Or better yet get of the air and actually make some contacts.  Join the SKCC group as others have pointed out.  Just find slow stations and just copy them as best you can.  SKCC is really getting people to get back on the air to have CW fun not to worry if they are perfect.  I am hearing lots of slow senders no, and an awful lot of them are old timers just having fun. 

Lastly.  Please   ……….  Don’t be sucked into buying one of these bright and shiny Vibroplex “BUGS”.  Most of the worst senders are trying to use a “BUG”.  A great key, but ….. it takes lots of practice get the sending down perfect.  Do get a decent Paddle either single lever or dual.  Again most people never send real Iambic (dual squeeze Paddles) correctly, they just slap the left and right paddles, which is fine, but if most people who try a single arm paddle ( not a BUG ), will get better results, because most people are slappers at heart.  Have fun


Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC2EU on March 06, 2023, 05:44:50 PM
Quote
Lastly.  Please   ……….  Don’t be sucked into buying one of these bright and shiny Vibroplex “BUGS”.  Most of the worst senders are trying to use a “BUG”.  A great key, but ….. it takes lots of practice get the sending down perfect.  Do get a decent Paddle either single lever or dual.  Again most people never send real Iambic (dual squeeze Paddles) correctly, they just slap the left and right paddles, which is fine, but if most people who try a single arm paddle ( not a BUG ), will get better results, because most people are slappers at heart.  Have fun

Amen! A Bug is just an early "mechanical keyer" before electronic keyers were possible. Other than learning how to use a piece of CW history, I see no need to use one. they require good rhythm and timing from the user. Unfortunately most do not posses this skill or they think the garbage they send is "cool"? Never could figure it out. You will hardly know it's a Bug if  they are a good Bug Op. 

I actually enjoy using my Navy straight key.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W6MK on March 06, 2023, 10:09:33 PM
But consider our objectives back then:
1)  5 WPM for Novice
2) 13 WPM for General
3) 20 WPM for Extra

More power to you if you "naturally" moved between these levels.  I did not and many, many, many did not.  The levels were chosen to make that, in fact.

The different speeds were set for different ways the brain recognizes code.  5 to 12 is a speed where one can recognize code by listening to individual dots and dashes.  One can learn to recognize code that way at such speeds.

One then had to unlearn counting dots and dashes because the brain is such that you can't reliably recognize Morse Code at 13 (certainly not 18) by picking out individual dots and dashes any more.  That's darn near a human universal and, in fact, the three speeds were chosen because that is so.

And, it was a struggle for many of us (me included) precisely because we had to unlearn what got us to 5.

But, once again, there was a certain amount of unlearning to be done.

I have to wonder about the mindset that specifies exactly what speed in wpm needs to be learned to pass a certain license test. I don't recall ever doing that.

Seems to me that we learned slow speeds at first and very naturally our speed capability increased. Like playing scales or a tune on the piano. One starts slowly and over time one's speed naturally increases. Same as learning any physical/mental task. One recites a poem slowly at first as one works at recalling the next word, phrase, line. One slices onions or carrots slowly at first, then as a safe technique develops, one chops quite chop chop.

When I took my Novice exam given by a General back in the late 50s, I think my examiner set the speed at something a bit over 5 wpm (using an Instructograph keying an audio oscillator). I was quite capable of copying at 10 wpm so 5 wpm was not a problem. When I took the code exam at the FCC office a year later, after a lazy year of Novice contacts, I could copy comfortably at something over 15 wpm. I passed the exam easily. I didn't practice only at 13 wpm. In fact I simply went on the air and worked whatever stations I could.

Even if one copies only at first only 5 wpm or at 13 wpm or at 20 wpm, one's top copying speed will gradually increase beyond any perceived "barrier" automatically. This is because, with repetition, the human brain gradually learns to perform tasks better, more efficiently and faster. Yes, it is likely that one can increase speed at a greater rate if one tries to go faster, but going faster is not a requirement for increasing speed.

The secret to mastering speed is the constant automatic learning, with repetition, if how to go slower more efficiently. For learning many kinds of tasks, the traditional motto has been "to go fast, go slow."

As for the need to unlearn a task before learning how to do a task faster, that makes absolutely no sense to me. I've never seen any reference to such a process in any competent discussion of learning theory in any psychology textbook.

On the other hand there are people, a small minority I think, who struggle with learning Morse Code. Some people never learn to recognize musical rhythms or to remember tunes. Most of us who took Morse Code exams in the old days found them to be fairly easy.

The militaries of many countries taught millions of people to be Morse Code operators with great success.

Often unmentioned, but critical to learning Morse Code or any other task, is the need to learn when one is relaxed and focused. One needs to avoid multitasking, which is a severe hindrance. Learning is greatly enhanced in social situations and when learning tasks are designed to be enjoyable as well as challenging.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W6MK on March 06, 2023, 10:15:22 PM
Quote
Lastly.  Please   ……….  Don’t be sucked into buying one of these bright and shiny Vibroplex “BUGS”.  Most of the worst senders are trying to use a “BUG”.  A great key, but ….. it takes lots of practice get the sending down perfect.  Do get a decent Paddle either single lever or dual.  Again most people never send real Iambic (dual squeeze Paddles) correctly, they just slap the left and right paddles, which is fine, but if most people who try a single arm paddle ( not a BUG ), will get better results, because most people are slappers at heart.  Have fun

Amen! A Bug is just an early "mechanical keyer" before electronic keyers were possible. Other than learning how to use a piece of CW history, I see no need to use one. they require good rhythm and timing from the user. Unfortunately most do not posses this skill or they think the garbage they send is "cool"? Never could figure it out. You will hardly know it's a Bug if  they are a good Bug Op. 

I actually enjoy using my Navy straight key.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 07, 2023, 06:30:38 AM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.  From everything I've read bugs and cooties aren't worth the effort.  Some people say start with a straight key, others say start with paddles.  Is it a Ford vs Chevy argument or is one really better than the other to start out with?  Or should this be a whole new post?
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC2EU on March 07, 2023, 07:00:26 AM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.  From everything I've read bugs and cooties aren't worth the effort.  Some people say start with a straight key, others say start with paddles.  Is it a Ford vs Chevy argument or is one really better than the other to start out with?  Or should this be a whole new post?

I was trying to use paddles at first, but i found it difficult to space the words properly for some reason. I went to straight key where I had to do all of the timing/spacing myself. It improved my sending quite a bit IMO. I still use the straight key more than the paddles, since I top out at 20WPM anyway.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 07, 2023, 08:58:30 AM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.  From everything I've read bugs and cooties aren't worth the effort.  Some people say start with a straight key, others say start with paddles.  Is it a Ford vs Chevy argument or is one really better than the other to start out with?

Using a straight key doesn't teach you (or force you) to learn correct timing when sending, and your speed will be limited.  Just start out with paddles and a keyer.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K0UA on March 07, 2023, 10:02:02 AM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.  From everything I've read bugs and cooties aren't worth the effort.  Some people say start with a straight key, others say start with paddles.  Is it a Ford vs Chevy argument or is one really better than the other to start out with?

Using a straight key doesn't teach you (or force you) to learn correct timing when sending, and your speed will be limited.  Just start out with paddles and a keyer.

^ what he said above. A straight key doesn't force you to do anything but send the type of code you send. In other words if you send garbage it will sound like garbage.  Also remember that ALL modern rigs have built in keyer's and you are out only the price of the paddles. The era of needing an external keyer are long gone.  If you are relying on a rig that needs an external keyer, it might be a good time to look into getting a modern rig.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 07, 2023, 10:38:46 AM
Thanks for the replies.  Dave Casler did a review on these and said they're well built and work well.  Plus they're made in the U.S.  https://cwmorse.us/products/red-double-paddle-with-steel-base
Price isn't too bad so when I'm ready I think I'll give a set a shot and see how I do.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K5LXP on March 07, 2023, 02:07:05 PM
I think the only choice to make as far as sending equipment goes is single or dual paddle.  Single is easier to master, iambic takes a bit more practice but I liked it better as soon as I tried it.  Straight keys are just miserable to use for either fast CW or long QSO's, especially with the extra concentration needed to maintain timing.  Bugs are a wonder to see someone use competently and there's definitely a nostalgia factor to them, but amount to being a single lever paddle that you still have to manually control timing.  Sending good, fast CW for long periods is nearly effortless with a nice paddle and keyer.  When operating portable or mobile a paddle almost mandatory. 

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 07, 2023, 04:25:44 PM
Thanks for the replies.  Dave Casler did a review on these and said they're well built and work well.  Plus they're made in the U.S.  https://cwmorse.us/products/red-double-paddle-with-steel-base
Price isn't too bad so when I'm ready I think I'll give a set a shot and see how I do.
I would stay away from paddles with plastic arms.  If you want that brand, go for the ones with metal arms.
https://cwmorse.us/products/cnc-machined-aluminum-pocket-double-paddle-key

The "feel" you get from plastic arms will not be very precise and will make sending difficult.  AND, they are known for melting if you use them outside on hot days !!
I would recommend two other brands but they cost more...  Send me an email to my QRZ email if you would like other suggestions :-)

Glenn AE0Q
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: ZL1BBW on March 08, 2023, 11:50:04 AM
Righto, here are MTCW.

Learning on a good solid hand key has been the traditional way, since for ever.  The argument has always been that it encourages that inbuilt clock to take over and help form good sending habits, I certainly leant that way.

I think it is possibly only of real benefit if you need to be a wide speed spread operator, not just a keyer set at 23wpm.

My first morse test on a hand key was at 12 wpm for 3 minutes with max 4 errors, my last test on a hand key was at 28 wpm for 5 minutes with no errors, corrected or otherwise.

As for receiving, we were taught to receive upto maybe 10 wpm before getting a touch of a key, we had to get to 12wpm absolutely solid so that meant 15wpm sent correctly timed and spaced for the speed.

Many people say they can copy at xyz speed, show me the copy, hard paper copy is what we were taught for, not conversational chit chat, so yes accuracy was and I still maintain is an important part of cw, especially if thinking of it as a last ditch method of communication.

If you can hold a nice steady qso at 18 wpm you will find a host of takers, and it will be enjoyable, as time progresses your speed will increase, but hopefully you formation and accuracy will improve as time goes on.

Someone mentioned a visual display of code formation, we used to have an inker, I understand there is something available for one screen, but think it only shows one letter,  I wonder if a decoder set up fairly tight would work? or are they even capable of having the receive dot dash ratio adjusted.

Have a listen to the ARRL code runs they appear to be nice morse, also some pre recorded ones are nice, I personally loath the idea of spac i n  g i  t  ou t to make the overall time correct.

Aim to send well, if your know you are sending crap then stop, and go off air and sort it out, and never ever rely on the opinion of the same one person, I have heard and endured disastrous results from that.

Finally now its meant to be fun, for me, getting to 28wpm, passing the French translation exam plus a few other bits meant a substantial pay rise, encouragement indeed.

GL  Gavin



Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K6JH on March 08, 2023, 01:40:40 PM
Thanks for the replies.  Dave Casler did a review on these and said they're well built and work well.  Plus they're made in the U.S.  https://cwmorse.us/products/red-double-paddle-with-steel-base
Price isn't too bad so when I'm ready I think I'll give a set a shot and see how I do.
I would stay away from paddles with plastic arms.  If you want that brand, go for the ones with metal arms.
https://cwmorse.us/products/cnc-machined-aluminum-pocket-double-paddle-key

The "feel" you get from plastic arms will not be very precise and will make sending difficult.  AND, they are known for melting if you use them outside on hot days !!
I would recommend two other brands but they cost more...  Send me an email to my QRZ email if you would like other suggestions :-)

Glenn AE0Q



Cool. I didn’t realize they did aluminum also.


Can you make your other suggestions here? There are some of us lurkers here wondering also!
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K0RS on March 08, 2023, 05:13:06 PM
You're gonna have people tell you "everyone's different" when it comes to learning code, but they're not.  There are, however, some recurring themes.  WO7R and K0UA related some of their struggles when leaning code.  I don't recognize their particular problems. That isn't to say code was easy for me, but my experiences more parallel W6MK's.  The more I used CW the faster I got.  It was (more or less) a continuous process.  I may at times have felt like I reached some minor plateaus, namely 10 and 15 wpm, but it was never a big deal.  Hell, I even learned the code visually first, supposedly a big no-no according to the guys who want to tell you "That's wrong, you gotta do it this way."  But there wasn't much choice when I was cribbing ham radio literature in study hall and pretending to be studying.  Well, I was studying, just not algebra.

Here's the thing: I never used recordings, tape or a computer to learn code.  From the time I cold barely copy 5 wpm, all my practice was on the air.  I wanted to use CW to make QSOs, so that's what I did.  This has a double advantage.  First, there's a powerful motivation to copy correctly when some is talking directly to you.  It's embarrassing to ask for repeats.  Secondly, it puts your copy in the context in which you're going to be using it.  QRN, QRM, fading, et al.  You learn to deal with it.  You learn your radio's features, filters and interference fighting tools.  W1AW code practice was particularly helpful when not making two way QSOs.

When I was a novice, I was fortunate to stumble upon a used, tube type Hallicrafters HA-1 keyer.  This was more difficult than modern keyers as it had no element memory...so your keying had to be accurate enough to match the speed at which the keyer was set.  Nevertheless, it was such an improvement over my J-38 that it was unbelievable.  To this day, I loathe straight keys.  Yeah, I know.  There're guys that love 'em.  And they can have 'em.  When someone tells you that you need to learn on a straight key first, what they are usually, really saying is, "I had to do it that way, so you should too."  So yeah, use a keyer.  YMMV, but I doubt it.


Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W6MK on March 08, 2023, 05:15:26 PM
Righto, here are MTCW.

Learning on a good solid hand key has been the traditional way, since for ever.  The argument has always been that it encourages that inbuilt clock to take over and help form good sending habits, I certainly leant that way.

I think it is possibly only of real benefit if you need to be a wide speed spread operator, not just a keyer set at 23wpm.

My first morse test on a hand key was at 12 wpm for 3 minutes with max 4 errors, my last test on a hand key was at 28 wpm for 5 minutes with no errors, corrected or otherwise.

As for receiving, we were taught to receive upto maybe 10 wpm before getting a touch of a key, we had to get to 12wpm absolutely solid so that meant 15wpm sent correctly timed and spaced for the speed.

So well-put! I wish I could do the same.

The argument is, indeed, about what kind of operator one works, ultimately, to become. If it is to be a wide-range-speed operator, who can send (and receive) Morse Code clearly with any key and/or keyer setup, then it is the best route.

Quickest method to be able participate in a CW contest, perhaps not. Most understanding and enjoyment of the art of Morse Code, very likely.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 08, 2023, 06:02:11 PM
Can you make your other suggestions here? There are some of us lurkers here wondering also!
Oh boy, everyone has their personal preferences.  But I'll sum up mine by saying that for 50 years I've used dual paddles with springs for the resistance to moving each arm.  Some have one spring between the two arms with one adjustment for the force, some have two springs that are each adjustable.  My favorite of all those is the Jones Key PK-200 I got from England, but now out of production for 20-odd years.  I have also had a few Vibroplex Iambic Standard paddles (and still do have one), the contacts of both of those are gold plated.  The bases are all pretty heavy so the paddles (about 3 lbs total) don't move around,  unless on a slippery table.

When I started operating portable from the car in 2020 I decided right away I needed something with a better anchor, so I got a Begali Magnetic Traveler Light.  It comes with a leg strap and has "legs" or arms  that close in around the body to protect it when moving around.  It's about 1.5 pounds, too heavy for backpacking and a little light for use on a table without a sticky pad under it.  Wow, since then I'm sold on the magnetic action paddles.  I also got a Begali Sculpture (used), a heavy magnetic action iambic, the Begali's have gold contacts.  Then last year a friend sent me his N3ZN ZN-9+ iambic, also a magnetic action with silver contacts.  So between them I've decided I really do like the 'feel' of the magnetic action better than the ones with springs.

I never thought I would like any paddles better than my Jones Key, but there it is, the ZN-9+ is my favorite now unless at a park :-)  The magnetic actions have a crisp "break" feel rather than a progressive push.
Most paddles have plastic or carbon fiber or aluminum finger pieces, all seem OK, the actual lever arms are some kind of metal.  I would stay away from any paddles that use a steel screw end or head for the contacts, they won't be very reliable and can easily become intermittent.  Brass seems to be OK as long as you slide a piece of paper between the contacts while gently holding them closed to clean them occasionally.

One model of magnetic action I wouldn't recommend, the Vibroplex Code Warrior Jr, they just didn't cut it :-(  I did try them for a while, though...

So those are just my opinions :-)
Glenn AE0Q
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 08, 2023, 06:19:35 PM
The more I used CW the faster I got.
I totally agree, being on the air as a Novice my code speed went up every day, it seemed !!

Quote
When I was a novice, I was fortunate to stumble upon a used, tube type Hallicrafters HA-1 keyer.  This was more difficult than modern keyers as it had no element memory...so your keying had to be accurate enough to match the speed at which the keyer was set.  Nevertheless, it was such an improvement over my J-38 that it was unbelievable.  To this day, I loathe straight keys.

That's so funny!  I was a Novice for 2 months when I got an ugly homemade clone of the HA-1 (tubetype keyer) for nothing at a St. Paul Radio Club swap meet, I made iambic paddles from two back-to-back Japanese straight keys and haven't used a straight key since :-)
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K0RS on March 08, 2023, 06:45:02 PM
Quote
I never thought I would like any paddles better than my Jones Key, but there it is, the ZN-9+ is my favorite now unless at a park

I've gravitated to N3ZN keys too and now have four!  I'm using ZN-SL (single lever) rather than the 9 or 9+.  These of course are magnetic as well.  The old HA-1 and Vibroplex VibroKeyer made a confirmed single lever guy of me.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K5LXP on March 09, 2023, 07:08:24 AM
While on the topic of preference, I too find the magnetic iambics have a nice feel.  I bought a bencher hex key when they first came out and for the price then it couldn't be beat.  For portable stationary use I have a porta paddle and for hiking, a palm mini as it stays protected in it's housing when in a pack.  Some scotch dual lock on one side and magnets on the other puts it wherever I need it.  My mobile paddle is an elecraft KXPD3 mounted next to the radio control head.  It's a sturdy and compact paddle but still a good feel.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WO7R on March 13, 2023, 12:18:36 PM
Quote
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.

Try both.  Honestly, I had a nice bencher straight key, a real tank, but I got tired easily.  I went to the "standard" bencher paddles and never looked back.  But, someone else will promptly tell you "straight keys forever."

Find some reasonably priced keys (the two Bencher keys I cited above are widely available at hamfests and elsewhere for reasonable sums) and see what you think.  There are also a lot of clever, portable keys out there, but while they are great if you do POTA or something, they sometimes fly around the desktop and can therefore be difficult to work with.  Still, I used a "bulldog" key for a lot of years despite its imperfections, including some expeditions.  It was basically a cleverly designed paper clip.  That was 35 bucks well spent.

But, then a friend of mine lent me his Begali key and that's what I now use.  Not cheap, but if you are dedicated enough to the craft, worth the money.  Your keying will be more accurate with a key like that.  However, that really shouldn't be the first key one buys.  Not until you know what you really want.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: KH6AQ on March 13, 2023, 12:48:03 PM
I decided that I'm going to learn Morse code so I can use CW.  I've signed up for LCWO.net where they use the Koch method - which starts you out trying to read 20wpm.  I do OK on the Morse Machine where I can control the speed by how fast I type in the letter on the keyboard, but when I try to use the lesson where I try to keep up and type the letters at their speed I can make it for about 5 seconds before I'm completely lost.

I tuned in a couple frequencies on 10m this afternoon to listen to some live CW.  They're no where as fast as what the Koch lessons are pushing.

So, do I really need to keep at the 20wpm speed....and get frustrated and not learn anything and give up, or, if I learn at 10 or 15wpm so at least I can communicate in code is that acceptable?  I'm never going to be a speed demon at it, I know that already because my brain doesn't function fast enough but I am trying to learn the letters by sound, not by counting dahs and dits.

I also loaded an app on my iphone where I can listen to the letters (I block out the graphic showing the dashes and dots with my thumb, so it will help me learn them by sound.

I really want to learn code, but it's extremely frustrating not to mention stressful.

What say you CW mavens out there?

Learning CW takes work for many of us. And yes, one's brain can "hurt" after extended high speed CW copying. Mine does and it's as if the "CW copying part" gets squeezed. As to being stressful, I found actual contests and Morse Runner CW contest practice to be quite stressful until I reached Morse Runner QSO #4000 at which time something "clicked" and it all became so much easier. You are learning at 20 wpm and I recommend using 25 WPM characters per the CWops courses. So, you might set a goal and work towards it. Something like comfortable 25 wpm QSOs and 30 wpm contest operation. An hour a day in 15 minutes sessions will up your speed.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: K3TN on March 14, 2023, 03:36:38 AM
In his book Outliers, Malcom Gladwell popularized the idea that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to master a complex skill. That's a long time - if you do CW for 5 hours per week, it would take about 40 years!

So, let's paraphrase that rule to 10,000 letters in Morse - that will only take 8 weeks at 20 wpm*, but twice as long at 10 wpm!

* All estimates in the above are OTIC**, void where prohibited by law and have a long list of side effects, such as divorce.

** Obviously Tongue in Cheek

73 John K3TN
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AC1LC on March 14, 2023, 06:03:57 AM
Believe it or not it's starting to take...

I found that using the Morse Machine on LCWO.net combined with K6RAU's website lessons works best for me.  I tried keeping up with the 20wpm rate for the Koch trainer and it's no bueno.  But, using the Morse Machine is helping learn the letters by sound and seeing that I can type I can speed up as I'm doing it.  I have the code rate still set at 20wpm but having the pause that I control by typing the letter gives me the time to recognize the sound and type it.  Hopefully once I learn all the letters and numbers my receive speed will increase.  I tried slowing the Koch trainer down to 15wpm and it seemed too slow.  I found it was easier to recognize the sounds of the letters at the faster 20wpm rate.  I'm not giving up...practice, practice, practice.  And they say you can't teach an old dog new tricks!
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: KF0QS on March 14, 2023, 05:16:40 PM
First, a little about me.  I was first licensed in 1968 as a Novice.  I passed the 5 wpm test and couldn't wait to get my general so I could get off of the damn code.  Once I passed my general (and passed the 13 wpm test), I was all SSB all the time.  Then I went through a long period of time where I was QRT (school, jobs, apartment living, marriage, etc.).  Through the 16 years I was QRT, as I thought about ham radio, I realized my best memories were of CW operation, not SSB.  So, when I came back, I became all CW all the time and have been that way since then (1991).  I got my Extra in 2001, a few months before they eliminated the 20wpm requirement, and passed the code test with ease (I never even realized I could copy at that speed until I took the test).  Today, I do well at 20-25 wpm, and when working DX or in a contest, I can speed up.  I frequently have CW ragchews that last over an hour.

I want to encourage as many people as possible to get on CW.  The pleasure in a good CW QSO is the fact that, for it to work, both operators have to work together.  In other words, a CW QSO cannot be one-sided.  It's a collaboration.  But boy, if I get a good CW op on the other side, it's a pleasure.

I learned the code back in 1968 through a very patient mentor with a code practice oscillator.  He started us out by saying; "I'm going to send an 'A'.  Here it is.  Dit-dah.  Now, every time I send you that, write down an "a"."  He sent us that about 10 times in a row, and each time, we wrote down an "a".  Then, he said; "Now, I'm going to send a 'b'.  It's Dah-dit-dit-dit.  Each time I send that, I want you to write a 'b'."  He sent us a 'b' ten times in a row, and each time, he sent us a b, we wrote it down.  All of a sudden, he sent 'dit-dah' and without thinking, we all wrote down 'a'.  You get the idea.  He did about half the alphabet the first night, and then the second half in the second night.  He was sending very slow.  Once we got the alphabet and the numbers down (going slow, the numbers aren't hard), he told us frequencies to go to and listen to QSO's and start copying them.  I was religious about copying many QSO's and after a while, I was good enough to pass the 5 wpm test.

I am horrified at the idea of making people who don't know the code start learning at 20 wpm.  It sounds crazy to me.  But to each his own.

For those of you who have patient instructors, or perhaps can adjust a computer program to 4-5 wpm, I recommend learning the way I did, i.e., learning the alphabet and the numbers, and then copying slow QSO's off the air live.  The frequencies I recommend for slow speed code are right around 7.050, 14.050 and 21.050.  You'll find plenty of slow speed QSO's to copy.  Also, don't forget the W1AW code practice sessions.

Make it fun.  It's supposed to be a hobby, not a chore.  And if you work me and need me to QRS, I will be most happy to accommodate you.

73 and hope to see you on the air!
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WS0SWV on March 14, 2023, 07:14:22 PM
I am also learning CW.   I started by just learning the letters and numbers individually at 15 wpm.  Then used a program called G4FON (free download on windows pc) to practice 15 wpm character speed with 5 wpm spacing.  I stepped up to 20 wpm spacing to help me learn the sound instead of counting dots and dahs.  It helped a lot.   I actually prefer that character speed now and am getting to where I know what compete words sound like.  I got much better when I started listening to the Morse code ninja podcast.   Keep it up.  We’ll get there. 
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: KL7CW on March 15, 2023, 11:28:08 PM
I have been 99% CW since 1954. Although most of us did everything wrong back then, we survived and enjoyed CW.  Personally I do not think 20 WPM is a magic character speed, but I do believe you should push the character speed a little, and increase it over  time.  If 20 WPM hurts your brain, try a character speed of say 15 or 18 awhile.  I have used many types of keys, and paddles both for ham and some ship and shore station maritime work. If I were starting out now, for sure I would buy a mid priced single lever paddle.  Skip the Iambic thing, lots of work to feel comfortable, but I wanted the challenge and had too many expensive dual lever paddles.  A friend watched me send Iambic squeeze keying, at 30 + WPM and he said as my speed increased I stopped squeezing some of the letters.  Personally I have good magnetic and spring return paddles, and could be happy with either, although I MIGHT have a very slight preference for the magnetic ones.  For portable work I am comfortable with compromise paddles, but for extended home use prefer something better.  Probably you can find something used or new for perhaps $100 to $200, but for sure you do not need a $600 paddle, I have used them, and my 200 to 300 dollar paddles are in all respects very nearly equal.  I started out writing down everything, but within perhaps 6 months only made brief notes with a pencil.  Example, Bob, Chicago, Teacher,  Retired, Fisherman,  10 watt TX.  You get the idea.  I eventually got my certificates up to about 25 WPM writing very fast, but tried typewriter, no luck.  (could type over 70 WPM).  Signed on as a CW op on a ship, my head and hand hurt, since the master wanted all the WX for the whole western hemisphere I think twice a day.  Sometimes the shore stations would send it faster, and I would need to skip dinner and find another station to fill in the things I missed, then type out a few pages.  I practiced lots for about 2 days on the ship, and within another day or so I could just type it out and hand it in, then go to officers mess and stuff my face !!   Being able to type it out helped, when I was a shore station op for about 3 months, but I never type my ham stuff out, except in a contest where you have software, and can even do great by hunt and peck typing.  It takes many (hundreds?) ((thousands ?) of hours to learn to concentrate in a noisy environment and to be able to answer a simple question from my wife, like when do you want to eat, and I just say seven, while listening to code, or sending.  I suspect most never get this skill, so do not worry, if it happens great.   Just enjoy your ham CW career, in contests 30 to 40 WPM is common, but generally rag chews are perhaps 15 to perhaps 22 WPM.  I often operate portable QRP and 7 to 15 WPM is common at times.  You will probably write down everything for awhile, then just brief notes.  I think all of us would write out what to say before we even made our first QSO's.....takes the pressure off.  Before long you will begin recognizing letters instead of dots and dashes, but it may take longer, probably well over a year before you start to hear words, but you can have years of fun without this skill. True head copy probably only happens when you are comfortable at moderate to higher speeds, probably over or well over 20 WPM.  I bought some books on a CD decades ago at I think something like 30 or 35 WPM and it was fun to just sit back and listen, but again this will not happen anytime soon, or perhaps never for some folks.  My ideal ham activity is QRP from a park or trail, and nice long rag chews at perhaps 15 WPM preferably with someone less than 1000 miles distance. I have made DX QSO's but it is hard with QRP and a compromise antenna.                Rick  KL7CW
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: US7IGN on March 16, 2023, 01:18:40 PM
I am also used LCWO for learning Morse and did it at 15 WPM. First I learned to receive by typing on the keyboard. Then I learned again by writing down on paper. Then I had to learn again on the real air. It took me a year to do this and I spent at least 30 minutes almost every day on it. Then in order to improve my speed, I started taking part in competitions every weekend. After another 3 years, I reached 25 WPM. Good luck and see you on the air!
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: W9RAC on March 17, 2023, 02:21:09 AM
As many have mentioned here, it depends on what you plan or think you are going to plan on doing with the code. If your goal is to become a proficient rag chew Op. then it is not likely you will need the 20wmp skill, but it helps.  Most rag chews are more 16-18 wpm and depending on where you are maybe less. You are not going to hear many Ops sending at 20 with mechanical keys. Some do who should be sending around 12 tho. If you learn at 20 or so (which is far best, so you do not count) then decoding@17 is EZ. If you learn only by paddle or computer code, you will struggle when you encounter mechanical keys. If you learn listening to both types, you will be far better prepared in the real world. Just some thoughts of mine, 73 Rich W9RAC
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N2HUN on March 18, 2023, 04:43:51 AM
In my opinion as a CW op for over 40 years there's no need to learn to copy at 20 WPM unless it's you're  personal goal.  It helps if you want to copy others sending at 20 WPM which tend to be more prevalent in the first 25 kHZ of the ham bands.  I've been comfortable at 17 WPM (using an MFJ Morse Tutor) for many years but when it hits 20 WPM my brain forgets the letters/words before I can write them down hihi. 

If you want a real CW workout listen to 4XZ, the Israeli Navy CW, on 6.607 MHZ.  Good luck OM.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: AE0Q on March 19, 2023, 07:42:29 PM
If your goal is to become a proficient rag chew Op. then it is not likely you will need the 20wmp skill, but it helps.  Most rag chews are more 16-18 wpm and depending on where you are maybe less.

And

In my opinion as a CW op for over 40 years there's no need to learn to copy at 20 WPM unless it's you're  personal goal.

Well, I have to say I'm shocked to see hams saying most people rag chew on CW at less than 20 wpm and that's all you need to try to do!!  I had my Novice license for 2 months and I was already copying and sending faster than that.  There are thousands, thousands of hams world wide that are conversant a LOT faster than at 20 wpm.  Yes, we use electronic keyers or bugs, what is wrong with making CW more fun?

I really don't understand this encouraging hams to use S L O W  CW...

Glenn AE0Q
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: US7IGN on March 20, 2023, 12:43:03 AM
I really don't understand this encouraging hams to use S L O W  CW...

I've noticed that it's harder for me to transmit at low speeds. Although I do not transmit faster than 18 WPM on a straight key. It is also more difficult to maintain intervals and the code becomes jagged, which further complicates the receiving. It seems to me that I will not be able to receive at a speed of 5 WPM at all. I will not hear sound of character.
It's probably a matter of personal comfort, but I've noticed that most of my QSO happen at 18-20 WPM. That is, other operators also use this speed.
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N8TGQ on March 27, 2023, 03:12:55 PM
AE0Q:Well, I have to say I'm shocked to see hams saying most people rag chew on CW at less than 20 wpm and that's all you need to try to do!!  I had my Novice license for 2 months and I was already copying and sending faster than that.


Well I'm shocked that you're shocked OM! I've been 95% CW for 30 years and seldom go more than 15 WPM to thousands more hams.

Ham radio is a hobby that's supposed to be fun. Get on the air, at the speed most comfortable for you, and ENJOY yourself! You don't have to conform to anyone's standards but your own. It's great to get suggestions, but that's all they are.

I don't advocate fast or slow CW. Relax. HAVE FUN! Find your speed and go for it. If I hear you, I'll work you whatever speed you want.

N8TGQ Rick
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: WS0SWV on March 27, 2023, 05:31:52 PM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.  From everything I've read bugs and cooties aren't worth the effort.  Some people say start with a straight key, others say start with paddles.  Is it a Ford vs Chevy argument or is one really better than the other to start out with?  Or should this be a whole new post?

My experience is that the straight key was more intuitive and I made fewer keying errors.  I made an an iambic key from some 12 ash solid copper wire and a rifle case.  I tried it as an iambic, cootie and straight key.  Very easy to make.  With that experience I bought a speedx straight key form a seller on this site.  I continue to tinker with the iambic but keep going back to the straight key.  One newb to another.  Your mileage may vary. 
Title: Re: My brain hurts.... do you really need to learn code at 20wpm?
Post by: N6YWU on March 28, 2023, 03:53:16 PM
That brings up the next question - straight key or paddles.

A straight key is good for learning the physical feel of proper timing. (If you practice.)

But if you have a shack computer, another alternative for faster Morse code is to just let the computer do the keying via some appropriate keyboard CW software.  Not that much different from using a microprocessor controlled keyer.