eHam
eHam Forums => Antennas, Towers and more => Topic started by: KD9WOM on March 15, 2023, 06:26:37 PM
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I have posted about an antenna and that sort of was a bust on trying to make my own, but my question is, that all I have is a Baofeng and the QRZ Explorer 1. relatively small wattage and I live almost 20-30 miles from a repeater, what should I do to actually be able to receive and send communication? I can kind of pick up and hear a little with the rubber ducky but from my metal mobile home area, sending is NOT going to happen. There might be one repeater closer maybe two but I can't call up either with the ducky..HELP! I am getting frustrated as a newer ham! thanks in advance.
I do have an antenna and I did make it myself, but it seems to do worse than the rubber duck ....any antenna advice or whatever would be greatly appreciated.
and since I don't have anything fancy I am just trying to hit repeaters that are kind of near me, while at home, uhf vhf ...my radios can't do more than that ....will need to upgrade for more...
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I assume 2meters...outside antenna, preferably a directional antenna like a small Yagi pointed in the direction of the repeater. And very important, the shortest coax run you can make using at least RG213, but I would use LMR400. More RF power wouldn't hurt either, such as a 25watt mobile rig - you'll need a 12vdc supply for that one.
They sell after market "gain" antennas that will screw into your Baofeng HT and I have found they will be much better than the stock antenna that came with the radio.
I'd pick up a copy of the ARRL antenna handbook, you'll find excellent information on what you're facing, specially the loss of signal when using coax at VHF/UHF frequencies.
GL/73
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K6SDW raises some valid questions. We have no idea what you built, the quality or type of coax you're using, etc. Is the antenna itself resonant in the 2 meter band? What dimensions did you use?
Can you more clearly describe your antenna? Was it something like this? https://www.kb6nu.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2m-gnd-plane-antenna.png
A directional yagi made from a discarded steel tape measure isn't much more difficult to construct.
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You mention a "....metal mobile home area." If you are trying to hear a repeater 20 or more miles away with your HT from inside the metal home, then the rubber ducky will not be very helpful. As others have said, you need to use an outdoor antenna, and if you can position a vertical antenna on (or a few feet above) your metal roof that would probably be very helpful, even if it is just a simple ground plane antenna like N8RKD linked to. Of course something longer would be preferable, and there are a number of dual band verticals to choose from. A directional yagi, such as K6SDW mentions would be even better if you can point it at the repeater you are most interested in. Either way, you will probably also be more successful on 2 Meters than on UHF, but an outside antenna with a short coax feed line will be most helpful.
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You have to the something outside. Even something simple should work many times better than the duckie. Here's a simple j-pole that is inexpensive and you can hang away from metal and should get decent performance.
https://n9taxlabs.com/shop/ols/products/dual-band-slim-jim-antenna-with-10-or-16-foot-cable
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The two things that will improve your signal the most are:
1) getting the antenna out of the metal trailer, and
2) height above ground
Antenna gain by itself comes a distant third, once you get
past a rubber duck to a full-sized antenna like a J-pole,
ground plane or 1/2 wave dipole (basically all the same thing).
Can you hit a repeater 20 miles away at 5 watts? Depends
on the terrain between you. I've covered 100 miles with a 2m
HT on a couple occasions, but usually that requires one or
both stations to have some height above the ground in the
middle. If you have a hill between you and the repeater it
will be more difficult.
Raising your antenna from 5' to 20' is like increasing your
power 10 times (on 2m over flat terrain to a station 10 miles
away). That's without consider the improvement from
switching the rubber duck to a full-sized antenna. Antennas
like a ground plane are not difficult to build (https://practicalantennas.com/designs/verticals/gp_build/), and have enough
bandwidth that a minor error in construction probably won't
make the antenna unusable.
And often you really won't know how much power and/or
antenna you need to hit a repeater reliably until you actually
try it, especially when there are some obstructions. That's
another advantage of building simple, cheap antennas: you
can keep trying different versions until you find one that
works, then build a more permanent version, rather than
spending a lot of money on each antenna that doesn't work.
Oh, and do check that you have the repeater offset and tone
properly programmed - that certainly can prevent you from
hitting a repeater regardless of how close it is to you. When
in doubt, drive close to the repeater and make sure you can
hit it there.
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Some good ideas presented, I like the J-pole antenna for a simple easy antenna with gain over
a 1/4 wave vertical like AC90 suggested. What ever antenna you decide upon get it outside and up above the metal trailer. Let us know your progress, we will assist more. We've all been there.
Bob
K6UJ
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Sadly, like many new to the hobby, you have chosen a hand held in the mistaken belief that it will somehow allow you to communicate from home to a distant repeater. It is not a good start...
A mobile radio, as you would use in a car, together with an outdoor antenna, either an omni directional "white stick" fibreglass dual band one, or a single band yagi, rear mounted and vertically polarised, pointed at a distant repeater, is a much more likely to work solution.
The big problem with any hand held, is that running 5 Watts is (a) going to run the battery down quickly, (b) result in the radio getting very hot if you transmit for any length of time and (c) you are going to need an outside antenna feeder connected to the hand held, not how they are intended to be used and in practice quite awkard to use too.
Sorry to be blunt, but you have the wrong tool for the job.
73 Dave
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When I first got started, all I had was a Radio Shack HTX-202 2m HT. I struggled to hit repeaters too. A friend loaned me his homebrew J-Pole made out of 1/2” copper pipe, and I hit the repeaters around 20 miles away just holding it in my hand while sitting in my driveway.
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Per Repeaterbook (https://www.repeaterbook.com/repeaters/prox_result.php?city=elizabeth+in&lat=&long=&distance=25&Dunit=m&band1=14&band2=4&freq=&call=&features%5B%5D=FM&status_id=%25&use=%25&order=distance_calc%2C+state_id+ASC) there's a number of repeaters closer than 20 miles to your QRZ address. Might not be the ones you're ultimately interested in working but see which ones you can access to get an idea how much impact your antenna and location has to accessibility.
Another way to test relative performance of different antennas and locations is to pick up one of the NOAA weather stations. Finding one that's weak to mid strength can be a good reference when doing A/B comparisons. These stations are on 24/7 so don't require someone monitoring or responding to your call for signal reports.
Any antenna outside is going to be better than any antenna inside. I've talked almost 100 miles with a rubber duck on an HT - from the top of Pike's Peak. That same antenna and HT inside a car would be lucky go a few miles. So don't worry too much about what kind of antenna you put up outside, or even the grade of coax. If it's outside and in the clear, it will work pretty well. Antenna gain and good coax improve performance (signal strength) but they can't create line of sight. Only height can do that.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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All good advice.
As stated above, height is king with VHF communications. It is line of sight propagation.
There is a web site www.https://www.scadacore.com/tools/rf-path/rf-line-of-sight/
that can tell you how high you "should" be to accomplish what you desire.
Power is another helper. I have an HT that I drive a 2M 80W linear with 1.5 watts in the farm vehicle when desired.
On my office desk I have a Baofeng with a 19" whip and a 19" counterpoise wire that hits the local repeater 12 miles away with full quieting at under 2 watts output. It does just as good as my expensive HT's in that regard.
An outside antenna (3-4 element Yagi if you want to hit only one direction with no rotator) or a J-Pole, Ed Fong vertical dipole, home made ground plane from coat hangers and an S)-239 will all serve your purpose. Just get them outside and up as high as feasible.
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Your handheld should be fine. With a yagi a few feet off the house roof and a handheld running one tenth of a watt I opened a repeater 45 miles away once
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Metal Mobile Home? If it is steel a simple magnetic mount mobile antenna stuck to the roof with the co-ax run thru a window with an sma end will work just fine on a 20 mile distant repeater. Yagi and j-pole antennas are all fine but a cheap mag mount (Vfan brand, $20 on Amazon) will work just fine for a 20 mile haul IF the repeater is line of sight. Check that first.
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K6SDW raises some valid questions. We have no idea what you built, the quality or type of coax you're using, etc. Is the antenna itself resonant in the 2 meter band? What dimensions did you use?
Can you more clearly describe your antenna? Was it something like this? https://www.kb6nu.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/2m-gnd-plane-antenna.png
A directional yagi made from a discarded steel tape measure isn't much more difficult to construct.
it is a quarter wave ground plane I thought, maybe I got the lengths of the radials wrong? or not at the right angles? its copper radials and in a pvc pipe connected to and at least a couple feet above my trailer. with a coax that I know will give me a little loss in the swr...but should still be better than my rubber duck.
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Some good ideas presented, I like the J-pole antenna for a simple easy antenna with gain over
a 1/4 wave vertical like AC90 suggested. What ever antenna you decide upon get it outside and up above the metal trailer. Let us know your progress, we will assist more. We've all been there.
Bob
K6UJ
it is outside and above my trailer , the PVC pipe i am running it through is installed on the side of my trailer but its above ...it by a couple feet....i am fairly sure I got it connected correctly, but maybe its too close to the metal? I do not know, still learning, just wanting to be able to get on air, while at home.
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Metal Mobile Home? If it is steel a simple magnetic mount mobile antenna stuck to the roof with the co-ax run thru a window with an sma end will work just fine on a 20 mile distant repeater. Yagi and j-pole antennas are all fine but a cheap mag mount (Vfan brand, $20 on Amazon) will work just fine for a 20 mile haul IF the repeater is line of sight. Check that first.
I am guessing its aluminum so thats out, thanks ....not sure but think it is aluminum
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Metal Mobile Home? If it is steel a simple magnetic mount mobile antenna stuck to the roof with the co-ax run thru a window with an sma end will work just fine on a 20 mile distant repeater. Yagi and j-pole antennas are all fine but a cheap mag mount (Vfan brand, $20 on Amazon) will work just fine for a 20 mile haul IF the repeater is line of sight. Check that first.
I am guessing its aluminum so thats out, thanks ....not sure but think it is aluminum
You can determine that with a magnet... if it's steel then the mag-mount idea should work fine for you. If you want to have a yagi one is very easy to build for 2M. I'd make one with three or four elements. If you are just trying to get into a single repeater than you won't need a rotator for the yagi, just aim it by moving it while listening to the repeater and finding the sweet spot with the best signal strength
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it is outside and above my trailer , the PVC pipe i am running it through is installed on the side of my trailer but its above ...it by a couple feet....i am fairly sure I got it connected correctly, but maybe its too close to the metal? I do not know, still learning, just wanting to be able to get on air, while at home.
Can you hear the repeater with this antenna?
- Glenn W9IQ
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it is outside and above my trailer , the PVC pipe i am running it through is installed on the side of my trailer but its above ...it by a couple feet....i am fairly sure I got it connected correctly, but maybe its too close to the metal? I do not know, still learning, just wanting to be able to get on air, while at home.
Can you hear the repeater with this antenna?
no I can't hear anything, not even the police, fire, ems, all that I monitor with my rubber duck on, could I have messed up making the antenna that badly?
- Glenn W9IQ
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Metal Mobile Home? If it is steel a simple magnetic mount mobile antenna stuck to the roof with the co-ax run thru a window with an sma end will work just fine on a 20 mile distant repeater. Yagi and j-pole antennas are all fine but a cheap mag mount (Vfan brand, $20 on Amazon) will work just fine for a 20 mile haul IF the repeater is line of sight. Check that first.
I am guessing its aluminum so thats out, thanks ....not sure but think it is aluminum
You can determine that with a magnet... if it's steel then the mag-mount idea should work fine for you. If you want to have a yagi one is very easy to build for 2M. I'd make one with three or four elements. If you are just trying to get into a single repeater than you won't need a rotator for the yagi, just aim it by moving it while listening to the repeater and finding the sweet spot with the best signal strength
thanks!
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Yes, you have a problem with the antenna, coax or coax connections. Even an antenna that is cut to the wrong size will generally allow reasonable reception of signals.
Can you post or email some close up pictures of the antenna and the coax connections on both ends? Posting pictures here is a pain so feel to email them to me and I can post them for you. My email is my call at arrl.net.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Yes, you have a problem with the antenna, coax or coax connections. Even an antenna that is cut to the wrong size will generally allow reasonable reception of signals.
Can you post or email some close up pictures of the antenna and the coax connections on both ends? Posting pictures here is a pain so feel to email them to me and I can post them for you. My email is my call at arrl.net.
- Glenn W9IQ
I will have to get back with you on that, the antenna is up in the air, and I can't really get close enough to take photos at the moment, will try later, when I can, anyone willing to help me out is a Godsend. 73
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Ground plane antennas are pretty forgiving,
especially for reception.
It’s possible that you have an assembly problem
if the instructions aren’t written well, but I’d
suspect a problem with your coax, especially
the connectors.
Do you have any sort of ohmmeter or contunity
tester you can use to check it out?
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For reference you can use a mag mount on an aluminum surface. It won't stick, something you'd have to accommodate in some other way (e.g. double stick foam tape) but it will work as a groundplane equally well as steel.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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Ground plane antennas are pretty forgiving,
especially for reception.
It’s possible that you have an assembly problem
if the instructions aren’t written well, but I’d
suspect a problem with your coax, especially
the connectors.
I have a nano vna and maybe I think I have an electric tester that does different things....I am not real good at building things lol
Do you have any sort of ohmmeter or contunity
tester you can use to check it out?
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For reference you can use a mag mount on an aluminum surface. It won't stick, something you'd have to accommodate in some other way (e.g. double stick foam tape) but it will work as a groundplane equally well as steel.
Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
great to know, considering getting a mag mounted antenna for the car soon, that might really help idk, I feel like I almost live in a hole lol sort of, its a weird area, a little bit. When I get a chance I am going to post photos of my bad attempt at making a antenna to this post. Some one asked, and so I will soon
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If you have a nanoVNA, put its start and stop frequencies at the band edges and see what is shows for SWR for starters.
- Glenn W9IQ
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If you have a nanoVNA, put its start and stop frequencies at the band edges and see what is shows for SWR for starters.
- Glenn W9IQ
when i ran for swr i was able to get it down to like 1.9 by changing the start and stop, i ll have to run it again to be 100%
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If you have a nanoVNA, put its start and stop frequencies at the band edges and see what is shows for SWR for starters.
- Glenn W9IQ
when i ran for swr i was able to get it down to like 1.9 by changing the start and stop, i ll have to run it again to be 100%
Make sure you re-calibrate it for the frequency and bandwidth. I calibrate it at the antenna input accounting for all jumpers and connectors.
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But if you want to check the feedline and connections,
then just measuring the SWR at the transmitter end
of the feedline is a good start. That will show you any
issues with shorts or opens before you get to the antenna.
That seems more likely given the symptoms than having
the antenna not build quite right.
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Some good ideas presented, I like the J-pole antenna for a simple easy antenna with gain over
a 1/4 wave vertical like AC90 suggested. What ever antenna you decide upon get it outside and up above the metal trailer. Let us know your progress, we will assist more. We've all been there.
Bob
K6UJ
it is outside and above my trailer , the PVC pipe i am running it through is installed on the side of my trailer but its above ...it by a couple feet....i am fairly sure I got it connected correctly, but maybe its too close to the metal? I do not know, still learning, just wanting to be able to get on air, while at home.
It would be helpful if you posted the specifics of what you built or reference the other post where you did.
We have no reference point from which to help you.
From what you have shared, all i can tell you is 2 feet off the roof should be sufficient, as 2 meter quarter wave is 19 inches.
Are you in a valley or have obstructions around you?
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Some good ideas presented, I like the J-pole antenna for a simple easy antenna with gain over
a 1/4 wave vertical like AC90 suggested. What ever antenna you decide upon get it outside and up above the metal trailer. Let us know your progress, we will assist more. We've all been there.
Bob
K6UJ
I took my antenna down and messed with it, and when I got the so 259 almost unscrewed, meaning i was going to disconnect it from the so 239, Indoors, not even outside, I picked up a frequency from a FD that I have programmed. When I had it tightened properly all the way, it wouldn't work at all...its the basic antenna 19 inch radials. but having it not be tightened fully made it work inside ...I wasn't expecting that. now I have to re-solder the center piece i broke it off lol oops.
it is outside and above my trailer , the PVC pipe i am running it through is installed on the side of my trailer but its above ...it by a couple feet....i am fairly sure I got it connected correctly, but maybe its too close to the metal? I do not know, still learning, just wanting to be able to get on air, while at home.
It would be helpful if you posted the specifics of what you built or reference the other post where you did.
We have no reference point from which to help you.
From what you have shared, all i can tell you is 2 feet off the roof should be sufficient, as 2 meter quarter wave is 19 inches.
Are you in a valley or have obstructions around you?
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Aaron,
Sorry to be coming in here late.
And, to be honest, I'm confused by a good deal that is being posted here ----- not sure who is writing what, who is quoting who, who is answering who, who is adding info vs. who is asking for more info, etc. etc... :(
So, I'm just going to proceed on with my best guess, and if I've misunderstood the info posted here then I'll have some egg-on-my-face, but I "think" I'm correct here. :)
Aaron, it sounds very much like you have a shorted feedline! Unless the coax has been pinched or cut somewhere, it's highly likely it is a connector issue!
My guess is you shorted-out one (or both) coax connector(s), when assembling them onto the coax.
{It appears that this is what Dale, WB6BYU and Glenn, W9IQ, were also pointing you to? And, were trying to get some more info from you, as well.}
So, there ya' go....that's my take on this.
And, please when replying / answering / quoting, use care so we can all actually decipher who is writing what, etc.....it will make getting an answer much easier. :)
73,
John, KA4WJA
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All I know is when I fully connect my connectors to my coax and draw it tight to the SO-239 and coax, it won't work unless I loosen it up, I am going to work on it again today and see if that fixes the problem...could I have bought a bad or just crappy so 239?
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I have posted about an antenna and that sort of was a bust on trying to make my own, but my question is, that all I have is a Baofeng and the QRZ Explorer 1. relatively small wattage and I live almost 20-30 miles from a repeater, what should I do to actually be able to receive and send communication? I can kind of pick up and hear a little with the rubber ducky but from my metal mobile home area, sending is NOT going to happen. There might be one repeater closer maybe two but I can't call up either with the ducky..HELP! I am getting frustrated as a newer ham! thanks in advance.
I do have an antenna and I did make it myself, but it seems to do worse than the rubber duck ....any antenna advice or whatever would be greatly appreciated.
and since I don't have anything fancy I am just trying to hit repeaters that are kind of near me, while at home, uhf vhf ...my radios can't do more than that ....will need to upgrade for more...
When we all first started, none of us had any idea what we were doing. It's how you learn.
If you hit Home Depot, you can buy a length of 1 1/2 and 1 1/4 electrical conduit. They will telescope inside of each other, and give you a pretty strong, 18 foot mast. It won't hold up a 5 element tribander for the low bands, but it will hold up most basic VHF / UHF antennas.
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I have posted about an antenna and that sort of was a bust on trying to make my own, but my question is, that all I have is a Baofeng and the QRZ Explorer 1. relatively small wattage and I live almost 20-30 miles from a repeater, what should I do to actually be able to receive and send communication? I can kind of pick up and hear a little with the rubber ducky but from my metal mobile home area, sending is NOT going to happen. There might be one repeater closer maybe two but I can't call up either with the ducky..HELP! I am getting frustrated as a newer ham! thanks in advance.
I do have an antenna and I did make it myself, but it seems to do worse than the rubber duck ....any antenna advice or whatever would be greatly appreciated.
and since I don't have anything fancy I am just trying to hit repeaters that are kind of near me, while at home, uhf vhf ...my radios can't do more than that ....will need to upgrade for more...
When we all first started, none of us had any idea what we were doing. It's how you learn.
If you hit Home Depot, you can buy a length of 1 1/2 and 1 1/4 electrical conduit. They will telescope inside of each other, and give you a pretty strong, 18 foot mast. It won't hold up a 5 element tribander for the low bands, but it will hold up most basic VHF / UHF antennas.
cool thanks 73
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Aaron,
Thank you for the direct info here.
All I know is when I fully connect my connectors to my coax and draw it tight to the SO-239 and coax, it won't work unless I loosen it up, I am going to work on it again today and see if that fixes the problem...could I have bought a bad or just crappy so 239?
This is almost a textbook result of having a shorted-out coax connector.
And, in your case, I'd be looking at the PL-259's on the coax itself, as this is usually where the problem lies.
(although it is possible that you have a faulty SO-239, unless you bought some made-in-China piece off of Amazon, etc., it's more likely the PL-259 to coax connection that is the cause here.)
As I wrote earlier:
<snip>
Aaron, it sounds very much like you have a shorted feedline! Unless the coax has been pinched or cut somewhere, it's highly likely it is a connector issue!
My guess is you shorted-out one (or both) coax connector(s), when assembling them onto the coax.
{It appears that this is what Dale, WB6BYU and Glenn, W9IQ, were also pointing you to? And, were trying to get some more info from you, as well.}
So, there ya' go....that's my take on this.
Follow the steps that Dale, Glenn, and the others have been pointing you to....and, I suspect you'll find the bad / shorted connection is no time. :)
Good Luck!
BTW, no need to go to home depot, nor is there any need to use a nanoVNA, etc....you can "test" your cable, connectors, SO-239, "antenna", etc. for "shorts" and "opens" with a simple ohm-meter / any cheap multimeter....or, you can just have a very close look at them. :)
Also, no need to worry about your antenna height yet!
Understand that you could just strip-back about 19" of the outer jacket of a piece of coax, peel-down the shield along the jacket below, exposing a 19" piece of center-conductor (and dielectric), make a half-dozen tight turns of the coax approx. where that peeled-back shield stops....plug the other end of the coax into your radio, and you'll receive just fine!
(and, except for the common-mode on the coax when transmitting, it should work decent as a "coaxial-vertical-dipole"....a temporary / emergency antenna, but one that works in a pinch, and you make with a scrap piece of coax and a knife, in less than one minute...)
Hope this helps?
73,
John, KA4WJA
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thanks John I am reassembling my antenna i broke it haha but getting it back together with a new connector. hope this helps ....it should I believe ... 73
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So basically I had done everything correct, it works now, I just have to re solder my center piece and it will go back up where it belongs, I still can't hit everything in 20 mile radius or so but, I can hit more than I could before. Thank you all for baring with me while I figured that mess out....I was maybe a connector 235 or 239 issue most likely. My antenna works now. I think I programed the repeaters correctly lol
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I would highly recommend you consider the purchase of a Colinear vertical with a lot more gain than you now have and get it up at least 20 feet alongside the home for support and feed with LMR 400 Coax.
Good luck.
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I would highly recommend you consider the purchase of a Colinear vertical with a lot more gain than you now have and get it up at least 20 feet alongside the home for support and feed with LMR 400 Coax.
Good luck.
thanks 73
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Frankly, with a run of under 30', RG-8X might work better as it is easier to work with than the LMR-400. If you have got to go with the 400 go with the Ultra Flex version or the Belden 9913-flex as the stranded copper center conductor tends to hold up better, long term, than the copper clad aluminum.
Also, inexpensive 2m/440 rigs do exist, as do inexpensive 20 Amp 13.8 V power supplies. Anytone AT-778 on Amazon costs less than $150 and a power supply will set you back about $100. Alternatively you can buy used on the forum here....
Grover
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Frankly, with a run of under 30', RG-8X might work better as it is easier to work with than the LMR-400. If you have got to go with the 400 go with the Ultra Flex version or the Belden 9913-flex as the stranded copper center conductor tends to hold up better, long term, than the copper clad aluminum.
Also, inexpensive 2m/440 rigs do exist, as do inexpensive 20 Amp 13.8 V power supplies. Anytone AT-778 on Amazon costs less than $150 and a power supply will set you back about $100. Alternatively you can buy used on the forum here....
Grover
learning to solder for the first time, is now my issue I have made an antenna whoop AND that actually sounds nice, something to mark for the future when I have the funds.
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Ahhh, yes my friend Mo --I seem to need him for most things these days..... Mo Money that is! ;)
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learning to solder for the first time, is now my issue I have made an antenna whoop AND that actually sounds nice, something to mark for the future when I have the funds.
PL259s are probably not what you want to learn initial soldering skills on as they’re kind of tricky. Plus they require a bigger soldering iron that is not used on little electronic sized stuff. So you might consider spending what little cash you have on a crimp tool instead of a big iron, and use crimp-on connectors.
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I use a butane pencil torch, got to be quick but it works a treat!