eHam
eHam Forums => CW => Topic started by: K2WPM on March 20, 2023, 05:15:25 AM
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I think I just realized that those sending me TT7, were sending 007.
Is that right; like N is for 9? Pretty smart.
Second question, is there a way that more experienced CW folks are able to pick a callsign out of a moderate pile-up ... when all seem to be calling on the exact same frequency, and have the same tone, and all are about the same signal strength. Other than waiting for one to call several times, after the herd has thinned? I look for a number or a text string and send that with a ?
I tried using the RIT on IC-7300, but that doesn't seem to help, when all are on precisely the same frequency.
The pile-ups aren't significant enough to 'go by the numbers' or run split. Talking state QSO party or POTA...
Wondering about this from the hunter perspective also.
Thanks for any learning.
David, K2WPM
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Some people also use A instead of 1. But never replace numbers with letters in a callsign.
Everyone decides for himself how it is easier for him to take in the pileup. It comes with experience.
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I copy whatever stands out (eg; two letters) and send “RT?”. Other stations may understand and QRX, but often they all just send again. Rarely then I’ll send “RT? RT? KN KN”, which seems to work. If still no answer I wait a few seconds and usually someone else calls in the clear.
It helps if you make your signoff consistent so others know when you're ready for the next caller. And sending “QRZ?” Isn’t the way to go … they’re ALL calling you! And avoid cut numbers (well, except the 9 in 5NN) … most hams won’t recognize them. BTW, zero is a long T, and you can’t do that with iambic keying.
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One tip is to not call CQ on an exact “1KHz” frequency, ie do not call on 14.02300, but a random frequency such as 14.02334. That way callers have to net onto you, some will be exact, but many won’t.
73 Dave
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See "cut" numbers here https://www.qsl.net/w8rit/cw.htm
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Practice pulling call signs out of pileups.
Set your rig to USB or LSB and listen to a DX station's pileup.
If that is too hard you may just want to copy a DX station and compare your copy against a
Clublog Livestream.
https://clublog.org/expeditions.php
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Some great CW ops have an innate ability to concentrate on one caller despite all seemingly being on the same frequency, tone, strength. Mostly comes with experience. Adding to what KD1JT said about picking out a couple of letters or a number/letter combination and send them with a “?”, I also try to concentrate on the caller’s sending speed. Someone sending faster or slower than the majority can stand out. Also, wait for the “deluge” to thin out and catch a “tail-ender”.
Others have pretty much covered the cut-numbers issue.
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The perspective of an op who has used CW 95% of my last 49 years as a ham, and QRP 90% at that. I know how to be heard- and I know how to pick out an op in the mess. Verbalizing my thoughts isn't so easy.
As 'JT' pointed out, you cannot form a 'long T' with an Iambic keyer. But I say it's simply not needed: any T will accomplish the same, and after 49 years of copying them, believe me, when I hear a 'T' where a '0' should be, my brain does the correct replacement instantly. I hear a '0', not a 'T', and it doesn't matter the length of the 'T'.
'WPM' - When there is a mash, all exactly on the same frequency, all calling at once... there are several things that distinguish you guys in my brain:
1) Cadence and weighting. Even if every station used 'perfect' (it's actually awful) weighting of 3:1, your timing is all different. And believe me, I can hear it.
2) Timing. Timing is key. I don't care what form of input you use- your timing is about as unique as your face. I don't mean the timing you use when making your call, I mean your inter-character timing. And it doesn't matter whether you're using grand dad's J-38, your pretty new Begali, your junk MFJ-564 (see my youtube video for magnetic tension mod) or your homebrew paddles. They're now positive, snappy and crisp). Maybe if you're using a keyboard keyer you'll sound the same- but even then, in a rag chew, you'll start to stand out because you keep letting the buffer run out then you're reverting to hunt-and-peck typing and you'll start to sound unique, but this applies to sounding different in a longer QSO, not in a calling pileup.
3) As an aside, many hams who run a linear amp sound different due to amplifier variances in distortion products, TR switchover, etc. And if a ham is using an older vacuum tube transmitter with cathode keying and a straight key, I'll hear the scratchiness in his contacts. Very few sound the same. But this applies mostly to 1950s thru 1970s ham radio. Haha. Modern solid state rigs pretty much sound the same to me. I cannot state strongly enough the shocking processing power of your brain when it comes to figuring out the world around you.
I have a completely sightless relative. He drives his truck into town. How? By the sound of his tires reflecting off of the gravel country roads. It's true. He shouldn't, but he does. I'll bet you a sightless ham can separate those signals, all on the exact same frequency. Easily. And not be able to explain how.
Regarding being 'exactly on the same frequency':
It's amazing how many rigs these days are actually very close to being on the exact same frequencies, to the tenth of a hertz. Yet most are not after they've 'been in the field' for a few years and have aged. I can easily detect a difference between two stations that are less than one Hz apart. After 49 years at copying CW, you'd expect this. I can also carry on two concurrent QSOs- one with the op on the other end, in CW, and one vocally with my family in the room. You'll gain this ability too if you do it enough. You can read a book and chat with your wife or kids at the same time, right?
And oh man, if you want to be heard? DO NOT transmit on the 'same exact frequency' when trying to be heard! To do so is an exercise in masochism. I'm a life-long QRPer. I learned how to be heard :) There is no finer way of standing out. And it doesn't have to be by much- 20 or 30 Hz works a treat, even when running SSB. Heck, especially then ;)
Just my two cents worth.
I've done quite a few videos for new CW ops, offering my hints and experiences, if anyone cares to look. Channel not monetized, My CW playlist is at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3CPduOS04Nck7TqKaLq7zbyrV1R9gioa
Chuck, N8NK
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I think I just realized that those sending me TT7, were sending 007.
Yes, that started with using a bug where you CAN hold the longer dash for a ZERO number shortcut.
And THAT originated from the fact that in American Morse, a long dash IS the correct way to send a number zero :-)
http://jhbunnell.com/morsecode.shtml
Glenn AE0Q
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Excellent advice from the others posting here. This was also asked in the Contesting forum some time ago. K3TN said:
"Practicing with Morse Runner is a good way to build up pileup skills in CW
The more you operate in contests, the more familiar you get with the common call signs, which helps your ears a lot - if I hear DL1N I can start filtering on KS as likely last two letters, etc.
Similarly, though I'm sure it is different in KH6, knowing propagation helps filter out unlikely call signs and focus on coming back with more likely ones.
On CW, I try to lock in on the fastest one sending, since that will be the one that will stop first and keep the rate as high as possible. I use a 500 hz CW filter and also seem to lock in best on the lower audio.
I'm not a great SSB op, but I always try to come back NOT using phonetics, helps speed things up - if I have a partial copy, come back to "DL1 something, again" vs. Delta Lima One something" and when I finally get the call, just say "DL1NKS" vs. repeating his phonetics.
One other thing: with EU pileups, never give in to the rude ones. If I come back to "DL1 something" and IZ0ZZZ jumps in much louder, I will always keep coming back to DL1 something - if you show "fear" in an EU pileup, you will completely lose control!
Unless I'm operating someone else's station, I don't generate JA pileups like you must. But when I would op at W3LPL or remote op K4VV, JA pileups were the direct opposite - always come back ONLY with letters you are sure of. If you come back to JL1NKS and it was really JL1NKF on SSB or JL1NKI, you will be met with dead silence -until IZ0ZZZ throws his call in!"
Some takeaways from this and other sources on CW pileups:
Practice Morse Runner in Pile-up and WPX Competition modes
Tune your brain into one call and tone and keep on that one
Begin copying the guy who calls late, low and slow
Call the guy who shoots his call in the clear during the lull.
Copy a partial call, send that and wait for him to call. You do not have to add a question mark. Often times some ops will miss your one partial call so send it twice or even three times if they are misbehaving. They will get the message after a couple rounds.
Do not drop suddenly give up on one guy and take another or you will lose control of the pileup. When having to let someone go without completing the QSO I indicate it by sending his call and SRI NIL. Or, send a fake call with his partial in it and act like you worked him.
My preference lately is to mentally grab on to an early call and hang on even if it means sending a partial. I am finding it difficult to quickly drop one tone and mentally lock on to another on the fly. Practice with Morse Runner has worked wonders. When I reached Morse Runner QSO 4000 something great happened, like overcoming a CW speed plateau. I was following the advice of K5RZ to work 10,000 Morse Runner Qs before a [big] contest. Working contests frequency can help build and maintain these skills.
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Wow, lots of great suggestions from folks who know.
Hams are the best.
Let me direct a few specific follow up questions.
David, K2WPM
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One tip is to not call CQ on an exact “1KHz” frequency, ie do not call on 14.02300, but a random frequency such as 14.02334. That way callers have to net onto you, some will be exact, but many won’t.
73 Dave
Thanks for great suggestion.
I wondered about that.
David, K2WPM
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Some people also use A instead of 1. But never replace numbers with letters in a callsign.
Ur the best, thanks,
David, K2WPM
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It helps if you make your signoff consistent so others know when you're ready for the next caller. And sending “QRZ?” Isn’t the way to go …
Excellent. I realized that, finally. The way I ended QSO (consistently) was, "73 de W4BW/M" - the call I was using. That signaled to the pack, here I am.... no need to repeat QRZ...
Thanks!
David, K2WPM
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See "cut" numbers here https://www.qsl.net/w8rit/cw.htm
Excellent, just what I was looking for, thanks!
Cut numbers.
David, K2WPM
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Practice pulling call signs out of pileups.
Thanks for that. Yes, I need to work on that.
CW is a joy ... a challenge.
We do this, not because it's easy, but because it's hard.
To paraphrase an ex-president ...
73,
David, K2WPM
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Some great CW ops have an innate ability to concentrate on one caller despite all seemingly being on the same frequency, tone, strength. Mostly comes with experience. Adding to what KD1JT said about picking out a couple of letters or a number/letter combination and send them with a “?”, I also try to concentrate on the caller’s sending speed. Someone sending faster or slower than the majority can stand out. Also, wait for the “deluge” to thin out and catch a “tail-ender”.
Yeah, I found I was responding to people who sent much faster than me, and after I responded to them, the others had left. Good points, thanks!
David, K2WPM
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DO NOT transmit on the 'same exact frequency' when trying to be heard! To do so is an exercise in masochism. I'm a life-long QRPer. I learned how to be heard :) There is no finer way of standing out. And it doesn't have to be by much- 20 or 30 Hz works a treat, even when running SSB. Heck, especially then ;)
I've done quite a few videos for new CW ops, offering my hints and experiences, if anyone cares to look. Channel not monetized, My CW playlist is at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL3CPduOS04Nck7TqKaLq7zbyrV1R9gioa
Chuck, N8NK
Very good thoughts. 20 or 30 Hz.
Gonna try that.
David, K2WPM
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Leave your RIT on. The sharp guys will call a little off frequency to make their calls stand out. If you answer the stations that do this, it will take only one or two QSOs before the pileup begins to spread out a bit. This makes it much easier to pick out calls or at least partials. Occasionally punch the RIT clear and start over.
Stick to your guns. If you ask for "XX" don't cave and answer a bully who calls with "ZZ." As KH6AQ pointed out, you will lose control of the pile. At the end of the Q, don't use a long signature like "73 W9XYZ/4." A simple "TU" will let the guys know you're ready for more calls. But ID often enough that callers don't struggle to figure out who you are. Another DXer I know said, "You get the pileup you deserve." Make sure callers know you're in charge.
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The club I'm in (Potomac Valley Radio Club) has published a "Contest Cookbook (https://www.pvrc.org/Files/PVRC%202015%20ARRL%20DX%20CONTEST%20COOKBOOK%20.pdf)" that has a short piece by Jim N3JT, one of the founders of the CW OPS group, with hints on getting through a pileup. Copied below.
73 John K3TN
HOW TO WORK A DXPEDITION – Jim N3JT
I first wrote much of what follows 24 years ago but it stands as true now as ever, perhaps even
more so. I have been on a number of DXpeditions in the past (HK0, PZ, CP, VP2E), working as
many as 5,000 stations in one weekend on CW. From the vantage point of the DX location
certain operating practices, good and bad, seem to stand out. You probably know about most of
these, but many DX contesters seemingly do not!
The goal of a caller in a pileup is to attract the attention of the DX station and make a contact as
soon as possible - ahead of everyone else. Why, then, do so many operators call the DX station
on his transmit frequency when he is plainly listening somewhere else? Yes, everyone makes
mistakes. Even the best among us has at one time or another inadvertently reversed the VFO
split frequencies and called on the DX station's transmit frequency. To avoid this embarrassing
error and not be considered a lobotomy gone bad, take the two seconds needed to check your
VFO settings before calling.
One of the best approaches to improve your chances of busting a pileup -- used by those who
consistently seem to work through large pileups with very modest equipment -- is to determine
exactly how the DX station is selecting his callers. Whatever you might think, be assured it is not
always the strongest signal that makes it through a pileup, especially if the pileup is large.
Normally, more than 2 or 3 stations on the same frequency cannot be separated on CW by the
DX station, particularly if the DX station is working them at 180 or more an hour and is listening
only a few seconds for each new cailsign.
The answer for you, of course, is to call away from what might be called the locus, the point
where all the other guys seem to be calling. This means calling 200 Hz or so up or down. If the
pileup is wide, try the edges. If the DX station is listening up or down, find the last station he
worked and call there or just above or below that spot. Even for the DX station that hops
around, there is usually a pattern of some kind that can be used to increase your calling
chances. Listen for it.
Also, it helps to determine the DX operator’s rhythm. If you let up on the key and hear him
answering someone else, send faster. If on SSB he answers a half beat after you let up on the
PTT, talk more slowly or leave a pause before you say your call. Sometimes it means delaying
your call until just after that critical time when the majority of other callers have paused to
breathe. If the DX station is working at a high rate, you can be sure that he is able to pick out a
callsign from the mass of callers after hearing it just once. So don't call longer than necessary,
especially if it is not a split operation.
Most contest DXpeditions are staffed by pretty good operators. Have good audio on SSB, clear
phonetics, clean CW, an smart approach, and you’ll improve your chances of breaking the
pileup more quickly.
73 Jim N3JT
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Leave your RIT on.
Yeah, I tried hitting the RIT a couple times, but didn't seem to work.
Do you have a recommended offset?
Thanks again,
David, K2WPM
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Stick to your guns. If you ask for "XX" don't cave and answer a bully who calls with "ZZ." As KH6AQ pointed out, you will lose control of the pile.
Wise advice!
73,
David, K2WPM
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Excellent advice from the others posting here. This was also asked in the Contesting forum some time ago. K3TN said...
Some takeaways from this and other sources on CW pileups
Some excellent advice, thank you. I will save that.
I have been torturing POTA hunters, to help me improve handling CW pile-ups .... :-/
73,
David, K2WPM
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The club I'm in (Potomac Valley Radio Club) has published a "Contest Cookbook (https://www.pvrc.org/Files/PVRC%202015%20ARRL%20DX%20CONTEST%20COOKBOOK%20.pdf)" that has a short piece by Jim N3JT, one of the founders of the CW OPS group, with hints on getting through a pileup.
Wow, I didn't realize Jim is famous!
Great guy, strong team member in K2B for 13 Colonies Special Event.
Another "save" as a reference source.
Thanks for that.
73,
David, K2WPM
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Leave your RIT on.
Yeah, I tried hitting the RIT a couple times, but didn't seem to work.
Do you have a recommended offset?
Make sure you adjust the RIT offset as well as turning it on :-)
I turn my RIT on and set to minus 60 Hz when I am tuning around in S&P 'mode' (Search and Pounce). That way when my ear accidentally matches the tone of the station I'm calling, I'm about 60 Hz higher than all the guys that are exactly zerobeat :-) You can go as much as a couple hundred Hz offset +/- and most people should hear you, as long as they aren't using a CW rig with the 200Hz wide bandwidth (like a QCX).
When I am calling CQ, which I _ALWAYS_ do when activating a park (over 10,000 CW contacts) I turn the RIT off and only occasionally adjust the Bandwidth wider or more narrow as needed (usually between 400Hz and 800Hz wide, whatever it takes to hear people).
I use my brain to copy people on lower or higher audio pitches, it takes too much time to mess with the RIT for a short POTA CW contact when people are answering me at 25 wpm, which is the speed I use... Of course if someone answers R E A L L Y slow I do slow down.
Glenn AE0Q
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Suggestion for RIT:
First, figure out what your preferred "pitch" is, what audio tone you like to hear the CW signal at when you are zero beat with it. Everyone one is different but most transceivers come with a default of 800hZ.
Many ops find lower (say 450hz) works better for them as far as intelligibility and matching their ears. I prefer 600hz.
Just doing that, and then tuning in CW signals to your preferred pitch, may get you enough offset to leave RIT off. If not, the suggestions others have made are dead on.
One last thing about pileups:
We've all done it, but since 99.9% of DXpedition pileups will be operating split, the worst thing is to be calling them on their transmit frequency, vs. up. So, learn how to quickly set up a 1khz split operation on your transceiver and use your VFO B or RIT to move your RX frequency around in the pileup.
If your rig or ham software has the ability to set up macros or special function buttons, set one up for UP1, one for UP5 (phone pileups) and one that returns from split operation to simplex.
Just as important: learn how to check that you are really in split! My Elecraft K3 has indications in the VFO display and on the left side by the transmit light and I can still screw up when I'm excited chasing things!
One last thought: if you are using DX cluster or reverse beacon network (RBN) skimmer spots, many spots by humans and all spots by skimmers do not indicate if a station is working split. So, just clicking on a spot and calling will usually mean you are QRMing the DXpedition. If you either don't hear anyone else calling, or hear lots of very short 2 letter Russian callsigns that start with U and occasionally are sending UP, but as often UG, UL, or other mangling of UP, then quickly check if you are "upside down" or the mangled CW will increase to longer mangling of disparaging remarks...
73 John K3TN
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We do this, not because it's easy, but because it's hard.
To paraphrase an ex-president ...
73,
David, K2WPM
You will find that as your proficiency progresses, CW is actually easier than is phone, particularly with pileups.