eHam
eHam Forums => DXing => Topic started by: K6OK on March 20, 2023, 01:45:13 PM
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RUDXT team starting off with FT8 on high bands and CW on 40m. On FT8 they are using MSHV on even cycles. Many people on the clusters are posting "fox and hound" assuming it is because they see two or more streams on even cycles. But it isn't. Being on even cycles if you want to put your WSJT-X into Hound mode and call them above 1,000 Hz you can do that. This accommodates the people who didn't read 9X5RU's website and who assume it's F&H.
...which is fine by me as it concentrates the QRM above 1000 Hz. Knowing it's MSHV I called them in normal mode 200 Hz below their double stream. RR73 and logged. Hope to work them on CW too. -- 73 Jim K6OK
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One of my two favorite groups, the other being the guys/gal that just activated Saint Brandon.
Why do I like them?
1) They activate many places;
2) I can work them on multiple bands with my station. They must be doing something right. ;)
Worked them on 10m already, hoping for a full 8 bands.
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4 slots so far from poor, suffering, 6 land so far. Great signals and sharp cw operator. I didn't wade into the cw pileup on 17 yesterday. I found a new RFI where on 17 cw my heater turns on and off rapidly. Gotta get under there and go nuts with some toroid's before I get into 17 cw again. It doesn't do it with FT8?
Frank KG6n
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I bought a pack of three of these: https://palomar-engineers.com/tech-support/tech-topics/ferrite-tutorials/FSB31-1-1-ID-1-RFI-Range-1-300-MHz-p74532157 (https://palomar-engineers.com/tech-support/tech-topics/ferrite-tutorials/FSB31-1-1-ID-1-RFI-Range-1-300-MHz-p74532157)
Wrapped my microwave's power cord through it several times and now when I key up on 80m FT8 the microwave no longer beeps and resets the clock. ;)
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One of my two favorite groups, the other being the guys/gal that just activated Saint Brandon.
Oh yes, you can always count on the OK group and the RU group to put on a good show.
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This accommodates the people who didn't read 9X5RU's website and who assume it's F&H.
Agreed that it's not necessary and possibly even detrimental to your chances (someone QRMing you when you reply), but they even say on their website: "You can use both F/H or Normal mode" No harm, no foul.
I worked them on 12m a while ago... took 2 calls and my reports were -26 & -25, but I got an RR73. I then started calling on 10m... took a while, but I finally got a red line and a much better report. And then I got a second slightly different report... and then nothing. I am wondering if they logged it and I just didn't get an RR73 or if somehow they didn't copy me. I thought that software would normally try three times... guess it could be configured differently. Calling them again in a different spot.
Anyway, XYL is waiting on me, so I may have to QRT and wait and see if I am there next clublog upload. Not uncommon, but frustrating when you don't get the confirming 'RR73'. :-\
EDIT: Persistence and the XYL's patience paid off... two more red line reports and finally an RR73. In the log! 8)
Now I am curious... will wait and see if I have TWO 10m FT8 QSOs in the log. :P
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I bought a pack of three of these: https://palomar-engineers.com/tech-support/tech-topics/ferrite-tutorials/FSB31-1-1-ID-1-RFI-Range-1-300-MHz-p74532157 (https://palomar-engineers.com/tech-support/tech-topics/ferrite-tutorials/FSB31-1-1-ID-1-RFI-Range-1-300-MHz-p74532157)
Wrapped my microwave's power cord through it several times and now when I key up on 80m FT8 the microwave no longer beeps and resets the clock. ;)
Thanks,
I've got a bulk order in the desk for just such occasions! I'm pretty sure by now, I'm a stake holder in the company....no royalty checks yet... I live in a congested area and most my neighbors know what they are and have them on devices I bother. Like a good neighbor, toroids are there!
Frank KG6N
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One of my two favorite groups, the other being the guys/gal that just activated Saint Brandon.
Oh yes, you can always count on the OK group and the RU group to put on a good show.
I think the Italian group does a great job from Africa. They are always strong.
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Got em' for 3 band fills already. Could use one or two more. Nice sigs!
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They were +22 to me on 12m FT8 this evening, and I got a +18 back. Meanwhile just up the band CY0S isn't audible at all (yay skip zone).
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One of my two favorite groups, the other being the guys/gal that just activated Saint Brandon.
Oh yes, you can always count on the OK group and the RU group to put on a good show.
I think the Italian group does a great job from Africa. They are always strong.
I know of my Italian brothers' activations. I don't think I have worked them too many times though. This does not/not mean they are not good.
All I meant to say was that up to now the RU and OK groups are the ones that gave me the most ATNOs and bandslots.
My favorite groups list is not a closed list, it's open to one and all. ;D
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Why do I like them?
1) They activate many places;
2) I can work them on multiple bands with my station. They must be doing something right. ;)
I'd add a 3) to that: they study and understand propagation, and are on the right bands at the right times.
And maybe a 4) too: they take 6m with them and know when to be on the band, they were into G earlier on 6m but missed then, hopefully soon, I got their last 2 trips on 6m.
An excellent group of ops.
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10 to 30m "in the bag". Hoping for 40 and 80m now. That would cover the 8 bands I can TX.
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Same here. Not always the best signals out west but they hear me so who cares?
Frank KG6N
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Thanks God some SSB for a change!
It feels like every Dxpedition is using FT8 even when the Bands wide open.
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It feels like every Dxpedition is using FT8 even when the Bands wide open.
Of course they are. FT8 F&H delivers rate on a par with the best contest operators.
Rate is still king on these things and as long as FT8 delivers it, you'll see plenty of it.
It is rare to have a DXpedition chock full of SO2R guys that can sustain it for a week. But, with FT8, you get the equivalent with essentially no training.
It's just a matter of whether you have space for an extra rig/amp or two and can multiplex them into what are already shared antennas. SO2R is routine for FT8 F&H. And the rate is high even without that.
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Got them on 30 and 40m FT8 this evening. They've been easy to work everywhere all week long. Great operators for sure, and when working them on CW they're fast and accurate, just the way I like it. :)
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Got them on 30 and 40m FT8 this evening. They've been easy to work everywhere all week long. Great operators for sure, and when working them on CW they're fast and accurate, just the way I like it. :)
I filled in any band fills for 80-10. We'll see for 160.
I was trying for 20m qrp cw but no luck yet...
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I have yet to see them listed as being on 80 or 160m... have they been yet?
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Thanks God some SSB for a change!
It feels like every Dxpedition is using FT8 even when the Bands wide open.
Human nature to be lazy (and to sleep while the computers text).
:)
NØUN.
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Human nature to be lazy (and to sleep while the computers text).
Since when is SO2R lazy?
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On FT8 its pretty easy compared to a single stream of cw or ssb with the mess these pileups are. I'd bet they could even run 3 at once with little effort. Last night on 20m I was seeing him call 5 at a time. If that could be done on 2 bands at once, that's 10 qso's a minute with very little effort.
Frank KG6N
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It is rare to have a DXpedition chock full of SO2R guys that can sustain it for a week. But, with FT8, you get the equivalent with essentially no training.
"Essentially no training" -- not sure I agree with that. Without naming callsigns I'll just say that it is painfully obvious which DXpeds have experienced and knowledgeable FT8 operators and which ones don't. These days, like it or not, if you want a successful DXped with 100k+ QSOs you have to have a smooth and competent FT8 operation to supplement the equally competent CW and SSB ops.
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Your right. I think he meant there is far less skill development in comparison to what it takes to produce similar results on cw or ssb qso's in the same timeframe.
Frank KG6N
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I would love to see Club Log implement a feature where they use time on the air in each mode versus number of contacts made on each band.
I guess it would only work with Dxpeditions that used the Live stream feature or they could use the times between the first and last logged QSO during each session and add them up.
A lot of this will be dependent on operators etc but after a few Dxpeditions a rough rate trend would be revealed.
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Encouraging DXpeditions to focus on rate isn't a good thing for those of us working on difficult DX paths.
It is far too easy as it is for operations to miss short band openings while being busy running easy to work stations.
For instance, on 40 meters there may only be a short band opening between Asia and New England
New England operators appreciate it when rare Asian DX stations stop running JAs to pick up a few W1s.
We don't mind if they work a few deserving W2s as well!
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Encouraging DXpeditions to focus on rate isn't a good thing for those of us working on difficult DX paths.
Read what they say and you'll break the code. Many do talk about having EUs or NAs or whatever is relevant shut up for this or that time window so that difficult paths can be achieved.
They also talk a lot of about rate, because most want to maximize ATNOs to the whole world, not just the difficult bits. So, rate will always be king.
Yes, there's a little tension between absolute highest rate and making difficult paths work. And, smartly run DXpeditions are aware of this. They say so. But this tension is also only a couple of hours a day on a given band. The rest of the time, they will want rate to be king, in part, to put some kind of damper, limited as it may be, on the hordes still baying at them during those precious short openings to the antipodes.
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Just jump onto a west coast RHR or remote into a buddies station and work the DX, sure that is what everyone (allegedly) in NA is at these days, Why struggle when you can just pay for QSO'S
For instance, on 40 meters there may only be a short band opening between Asia and New England
New England operators appreciate it when rare Asian DX stations stop running JAs to pick up a few W1s.
We don't mind if they work a few deserving W2s as well!
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Encouraging DXpeditions to focus on rate isn't a good thing for those of us working on difficult DX paths.
It is far too easy as it is for operations to miss short band openings while being busy running easy to work stations.
For instance, on 40 meters there may only be a short band opening between Asia and New England
New England operators appreciate it when rare Asian DX stations stop running JAs to pick up a few W1s.
We don't mind if they work a few deserving W2s as well!
Well that may be true but I don't think it can get any worst than it is now.
These guys are totally driven by numbers. I remember back in 2010-2012 Dxpeditions would still chat a bit on SSB with stations that asked a quick question. It use to be that I got to know the voices of several operators as the days passed. Fast forward to 2023 and they hardly even bother to go onto SSB, even when band conditions are perfect.
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Encouraging DXpeditions to focus on rate isn't a good thing for those of us working on difficult DX paths.
It is far too easy as it is for operations to miss short band openings while being busy running easy to work stations.
For instance, on 40 meters there may only be a short band opening between Asia and New England
New England operators appreciate it when rare Asian DX stations stop running JAs to pick up a few W1s.
We don't mind if they work a few deserving W2s as well!
Well that may be true but I don't think it can get any worst than it is now.
These guys are totally driven by numbers. I remember back in 2010-2012 Dxpeditions would still chat a bit on SSB with stations that asked a quick question. It use to be that I got to know the voices of several operators as the days passed. Fast forward to 2023 and they hardly even bother to go onto SSB, even when band conditions are perfect.
We had some strong short skip today so CY0S was doing very well on FT8. However, he would've had a giant SSB pileup with all the area 1 and 2 stations calling but I haven't even heard them once on SSB.
I'll take the challenge points but sometimes I feel it's too easy on FT8.
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We had some strong short skip today so CY0S was doing very well on FT8. However, he would've had a giant SSB pileup with all the area 1 and 2 stations calling but I haven't even heard them once on SSB.
I'll take the challenge points but sometimes I feel it's too easy on FT8.
It's like shooting fish in a barrel if you have a station that is even remotely good. I don't know what skill level they are talking about but once you understand how to get them centered in a narrow filter it's just press the mouse and wait or set the dam thing on Pounce and go get a meal.
When you come back it's most likely already logged.
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We had some strong short skip today so CY0S was doing very well on FT8. However, he would've had a giant SSB pileup with all the area 1 and 2 stations calling but I haven't even heard them once on SSB.
I'll take the challenge points but sometimes I feel it's too easy on FT8.
It's like shooting fish in a barrel if you have a station that is even remotely good. I don't know what skill level they are talking about but once you understand how to get them centered in a narrow filter it's just press the mouse and wait or set the dam thing on Pounce and go get a meal.
When you come back it's most likely already logged.
Once you learn how to use FT8 what skill is involved? I set my XMIT frequency at 1776 and I haven't moved it since I've been using the WSJT-X and it has been years. Hitting a baseball took skill. I just don't see the skill with this mode.
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Back that power down to 5 watts, disable CAT control, & you get back to
me on how easy it is or if any skill is involved.
Dan WG5G
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People want to feel no matter what they achieve, that its meaningful somehow. Some lick windows, some fart in bathtubs and laugh...other claim skill is involved in pressing a button all day to make qso's....Who are we to yuck their yums?
Go be a big, bright, shining star today day Champ!
Frank KG6N
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"Back that power down to 5 watts, disable CAT control, & you get back to
me on how easy it is or if any skill is involved."
That's not what they are doing and you know it.
Frank KG6N
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We had some strong short skip today so CY0S was doing very well on FT8. However, he would've had a giant SSB pileup with all the area 1 and 2 stations calling but I haven't even heard them once on SSB.
I'll take the challenge points but sometimes I feel it's too easy on FT8.
It's like shooting fish in a barrel if you have a station that is even remotely good. I don't know what skill level they are talking about but once you understand how to get them centered in a narrow filter it's just press the mouse and wait or set the dam thing on Pounce and go get a meal.
When you come back it's most likely already logged.
Once you learn how to use FT8 what skill is involved? I set my XMIT frequency at 1776 and I haven't moved it since I've been using the WSJT-X and it has been years. Hitting a baseball took skill. I just don't see the skill with this mode.
It's kind of funny when your seeing the station bright red in the waterfall and yet it's not decoding. Then I throw on 12Db of attenuation and it starts to decode. WTF when do you ever use attenuation in Ham Radio except with FT8? Maybe just for some noise reduction but not because the signal is overpowering your station. I have had that happen in reverse where after 15 minutes I am not getting a reply. I drop the power down and within a few minutes he replies.
The longest time I have ever waited for an FT8 contact must have been about 45 minutes and that was on those two busted 3Y0J contacts when they were 14 minutes off. Compare that to my attempts to reach 3YOJ with CW, I spent hours and hours trying for days at a time and still no luck.
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Back that power down to 5 watts, disable CAT control, & you get back to
me on how easy it is or if any skill is involved.
Dan WG5G
Back the power down to 5 Watts and try to make a contact using QRP in SSB during a big pileup and then lets compare. You will never get through while with FT8 there is a pretty good chance that you will.
Anyway this discussion is not about cutting off your legs and then trying to run a race, it's about how easy it is to make the FT8 contact when you have a half way decent station. I am sure all of those 100W G5RV loving stations are feeling the sting now that DXpeditions are forcing the Big Guns to use FT8.
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Once you learn how to use FT8 what skill is involved?
Once you learn to send CW with a key, what skill is involved? Same thing! In a CW pileup it's knowing where to transmit and other such things. FT8 has it's own strategies to learn. I used them with CY0S just the other day. They are using a different setup than previous DXpeditions and after a lot of unsuccessful calling, I changed my strategy and worked them in minutes. Another ham I know arrived at the same conclusion, did the same thing and got the same results. Our experience and knoweldge (skill) over other callers won out.
No offense, but stating that you don't know what skill is involved says more about you than the mode. :)
It's kind of funny when your seeing the station bright red in the waterfall and yet it's not decoding. Then I throw on 12Db of attenuation and it starts to decode. I have had that happen in reverse where after 15 minutes I am not getting a reply. I drop the power down and within a few minutes he replies.
The longest time I have ever waited for an FT8 contact must have been about 45 minutes and that was on those two busted 3Y0J contacts when they were 14 minutes off. Compare that to my attempts to reach 3YOJ with CW, I spent hours and hours trying for days at a time and still no luck.
"I drop the power down and within a few minutes he replies."
Do you know to check your ALC while transmitting and set your audio levels to NEVER have the ALC kick into compression? The ALC causes distortion and makes your signal more difficult to copy. Again, there IS skill involved.
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To KD8MJR
When you get a chance, read my QRZ page all the way to the bottom.
Dan WG5G
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We had some strong short skip today so CY0S was doing very well on FT8. However, he would've had a giant SSB pileup with all the area 1 and 2 stations calling but I haven't even heard them once on SSB.
My guess is they may do an entry in the WPX SSB this weekend.
73 Rich KB8GAE
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Do you know to check your ALC while transmitting and set your audio levels to NEVER have the ALC kick into compression? The ALC causes distortion and makes your signal more difficult to copy. Again, there IS skill involved.
Please cut the Baby chatter. I Never assume that anybody on this Forum is dumb, even those I have blocked. We have all been doing this for a long time and it's not to hard to figure out how to setup your ALC, Compression etc. That is something you learn very early on and later on always do on day one of getting a new radio.
It's also not hard to clean up almost any Rx signal so that it can be decoded. The kicker for me was having to attenuate an incoming signal by 12Db for a DXpedition that is 4000 miles away. That's a new one for me and just reinforces that this thing is way to easy.
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It's also not hard to clean up almost any Rx signal so that it can be decoded. The kicker for me was having to attenuate an incoming signal by 12Db for a DXpedition that is 4000 miles away. That's a new one for me and just reinforces that this thing is way to easy.
You beat me to the punch. He's talking about how to use a radio properly and not demonstrating there is any skill involved with FT8. We learn early on to just have the ALC deflect a little when using SSB. It's no different with FT8.
Sometimes, and that's almost always outside a DXpedition, FT8 is simply too easy. I'd like to see a study on how challenge points have climbed since the start of FT8.
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To KD8MJR
When you get a chance, read my QRZ page all the way to the bottom.
Dan WG5G
That is a nice accomplishment Dan.
The question is how many thousands of hours did that take to accomplish? Most of us do not have that kind of time to be on the radio and based on my own attempts at going QRP I am now a firm believer in the saying that "Life is to short for QRP."
BTW I had no idea by what you meant when you said remove CAT control and work FT8.
Are there radios on the Market with FT8 built in? I am not even sure why someone would use that.
My Icom can do RTTY and PSK31 but I think I only tried it once. It sucked, not because of the decoding capability but because of the horrible ergonomics of using it.
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If FT8 is so easy why do I constantly see guys calling the DX on the same period as they DX, and they are mostly NA stations,
FT8 is easier than CW for sure but it has its challenges as well, you guys with your yagis up 100ft and 1.5kw amps just don't struggle to work anything like us Mickey Mouse stations do,
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My intention is not to insult you because I disagree that this is something 'everyone knows'... many traditional SSB/CW ops do not know how to properly adjust things like setting the ALC especially with regards to FT8, as I encounter over driving stations constantly. And my understanding is you want NO deflection with digital, so it's set slightly lower than SSB. (And I set it in the computer software, not the radio, so as not to change my voice settings). Bottom line, I consider proper station configuration as part of the required skill.
That aside, there is still the comparison of TX placement in a pileup... same as with CW. You failed to address that. I can't imagine you need CY0S anywhere (I only needed one band) but the guys trying to work it right now are having a lot of difficulty until they figure out where the DX software is actually 'listening' and adjust.
Not trying to start an argument, just trying to make the point that while so many come down on the new digital modes, their arguments as to 'why' fall flat. My contention is either they are just biased and using 'confirmation bias' to make their points or they simply do not understand the nuances involved in digital. Kudos if you do, and if you don't and don't care, then I will leave you to it. But I'm an op of 45+ years and proficient at CW... I don't understand the hatred and vitriol towards the digital modes. (In general, not directing that necessarily at anyone here.)
With that, I'll shut up now. ;)
If FT8 is so easy why do I constantly see guys calling the DX on the same period as they DX, and they are mostly NA stations,
Okay, this was posted while I was typing... my theory is that they are blind calling based on a cluster/spotter post. Not a good idea anywhere, but especially bad on FT8. :P
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"If FT8 is so easy why do I constantly see guys calling the DX on the same period as they DX, and they are mostly NA stations,"
Lets face it, we have a ton of elderly men figuring out computers and not completely with it in a cognitive sense. Its an old man hobby, for the most part.
Calling in wrong place or time is the equivalent of driving down the interstate with the left turn signal on.
Frank
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Lets face it, we have a ton of elderly men figuring out computers and not completely with it in a cognitive sense. Its an old man hobby, for the most part.
Calling in wrong place or time is the equivalent of driving down the interstate with the left turn signal on.
100% agree. Old timers who have been doing CW since the dawn of time and who aren't savvy enough to learn something new. But they need the QSO and that's the only mode the DX operates so they futz and fumble their way through hoping they got it right.
But the things they don't quite get (genuine F/H needing to find an empty spot above 1000, and double-click to enable transmitting in the correct sequence) are what's causing the problems. Goes to the old adage that if you can't hear them—or see them in this case—don't call!
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An Italian op on facebook complaining recently of not being called posted his screen shot where he saw the dx and called several time on the dx time slot.....Some just aren't paying attention.
Frank KG6N
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If you don't know what you are at then don't TX, listen for a while and try to get a feel for what the DX is doing and how he is working the callers, no difference than CW,
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But the things they don't quite get (genuine F/H needing to find an empty spot above 1000
An example of the 'skill' required... despite CY0S claiming to be running F/H and using the WSJT-X software which DOES ONLY F/H (not MSHV) they are running it with N1MM and we 'skilled' callers had to figure out that it's not running like 'normal F/H'. I made my QSO on 10m with them calling BELOW 1000... and some made their contacts with them calling below them (to the left). It's not simple point & click and go have lunch like some think. ;)
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That aside, there is still the comparison of TX placement in a pileup... same as with CW. You failed to address that. I can't imagine you need CY0S anywhere (I only needed one band) but the guys trying to work it right now are having a lot of difficulty until they figure out where the DX software is actually 'listening' and adjust.
I have about 270 digital countries and I don't move my XMIT frequency to try and chase the DX. I put the transmit frequency at 1776 Hz when I first started using WSJT-X and I don't move it. I read the FT user guide and watched a video and that's how I learned how to use FT8 and not to overdrive the audio. I broke two huge pileups for my two bands with FT8WW and I was only running 100W with my XMIT at 1776 Hz. I was in each pileup for less than an hour.
FT8 is not a mode that requires skill. If you have a decent station you'll eventually break the pileup.
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But the things they don't quite get (genuine F/H needing to find an empty spot above 1000
An example of the 'skill' required... despite CY0S claiming to be running F/H and using the WSJT-X software which DOES ONLY F/H (not MSHV) they are running it with N1MM and we 'skilled' callers had to figure out that it's not running like 'normal F/H'. I made my QSO on 10m with them calling BELOW 1000... and some made their contacts with them calling below them (to the left). It's not simple point & click and go have lunch like some think. ;)
Don't get so proud about that, I figured that out with only a few hours of FT8 experience.
The major confusion seems to be F/H vs MSHV and both the Dx and the those trying to work the DX are confused.
I was just observing CY0S when a friend of mine called and said he had been trying for over 2 hours to reach them. I said based on what I have been seeing for the last 15 minutes it seems like the people that are getting through are below his Frequency.
We talked for about 10 more minutes and then I heard him shout out "Finally"! He said thanks I switched from up at 1600 down to 400 and got through.
It's the same old basic tenant of Ham Radio. Observe whats happening "Listen" or in this case "Look" and then work them. In the case of FT8 it's Look for a few minutes and then press the button and go eat dinner or watch some TV.
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I have about 270 digital countries and I don't move my XMIT frequency to try and chase the DX. I put the transmit frequency at 1776 Hz when I first started using WSJT-X and I don't move it. I read the FT user guide and watched a video and that's how I learned how to use FT8 and not to overdrive the audio. I broke two huge pileups for my two bands with FT8WW and I was only running 100W with my XMIT at 1776 Hz. I was in each pileup for less than an hour.
FT8 is not a mode that requires skill. If you have a decent station you'll eventually break the pileup.
That is true, the only thing that sucks about FT8 is that every wanker out there just sticks a DXs call sign into their settings and plays games with the pileup. A FT8 contact is worth nothing until it is confirmed.
It's very hard to fake CW as some guys will know in 10 seconds it's not the real operator and the same thing for SSB. With FT8 it's a pirates paradise.
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You discuss the 'skills' needed and then say, 'No skills required'. What's the 'skill' to you then? CW!
I was first licensed in 1977 and sat for tests at FCC Field Offices. I was in favor of getting rid of the code as all the code requirement did was drive people AWAY from learning it properly and enjoying CW. But when they removed the requirement in the 90s all it became was a bunch of pissing & moaning, basically 'back in my day' rants. Sickened me.
This is code vs no-code all over again, as far as I can tell. You don't like FT8 and are biased. Fine. Uncle. I'm done.