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eHam Forums => Emergency Communications => Topic started by: KK4GMU on February 26, 2012, 04:33:37 PM

Title: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KK4GMU on February 26, 2012, 04:33:37 PM
The advantage of radio in an emergency/disaster scenario is that it requires little or no "middle man technology" like the internet and related infrastructure.

Even repeaters aren't as complex as the internet in terms of operation and repair.

So, a question I pose is this:  Is there excessive reliance newer technoligies that rely on the internet as support infrastructure?  Is there too little reliance on cultivating hams to participate in basic simplex or repeater operation to provide needed communication in a disaster or emergency situation?
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W5LZ on February 27, 2012, 01:06:53 AM
Typical emergency communications is compensating for/replacing/substituting for a missing 'component' in the normal communications system.  So which 'component' is missing, and why?  As in normal commercial power?  Maybe the telephone lines are down (or cell towers)?  That "compensating for/replacing/substituting" will always mean a step 'sideways' or 'backwards'.  So what happens if the internet access is one of the components you have to 'step around'?  "Ain't no step for a stepper!", but if that stepper can't dance, he's in trouble.  Right?
 - 'Doc
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KG4RUL on February 27, 2012, 05:49:05 AM
Absolutely no question in my mind that a reliance on the internet WILL come back to bite us on the a$$!!!
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K5LXP on February 27, 2012, 06:11:50 AM
I'm not sure what's worse - the hams that think they can show up with an HT and save the day, or show up with a laptop and save the day.  The trend is to create these inordinately top-heavy digital systems (Winlink, DStar, et al) and then come up with scenarios where they'll fit.  Solutions waiting for the right problem to come along.  I will admit though that sitting in front of a computer fits well with the modern sedentary ham.

Frankly, I have more faith in nerds running linux and modified wifi routers to handle the internet stuff.


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K7RBW on February 27, 2012, 06:38:41 AM
It's not that Hams are using the Internet, it's that EVERYONE is using it. This makes it a critical piece of infrastructure that will be brought back up as quickly as possible, which means that for most conceivable events, outages will be local and temporary. So saying you shouldn't use the Internet, ever, because it might go down sometime, is crazy talk. At the same time, having (and practicing) manual procedures (e.g. paper forms and simple communications protocols) to use during an outage is essential.

IMO, promoting the notion that only simplex Ham radio technologies are all you should count on in an emergency reduces the credibility of any Ham radio response. In an emergency, you need to adapt quickly to a constantly changing environment. That means being able to use whatever you have that's working. That might mean only simplex FM or it might mean SMS text messages, or it might mean the Internet, and then that could all change in a minute. The key feature to sell is adaptability and mission-focus, not how your handie-talkie don't need no fancy server to work.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: AI8P on February 27, 2012, 09:31:20 AM
No, they aren't relying "excessively" on the internet, at least not the groups that I work with.

One of the great services of Ham radio during an incident will be to send traffic outside the disaster area, where the "Internet" is still working.   

For example, my group has a major priority on updating the Red Cross Safe & Well website as a form of Health & Welfare traffic handling.   It is very possible that inside the disaster area that will be impossible.  That is why we will be passing H&W traffic outside the area to be used to update the website.  People outside the incident area are getting updates using the Internet everyday.   They are not going to change when they are looking for the status of their loved ones who are in the affected area.  It's a simple case of know your audience.  They will look for status online, so we need to put it there.

On a related issue, I'm not a D-star person, and don't intend to become one, but I understand that hams have always liked to tinker with new technology so I have no problem with that.   I'm just not relying upon it in my county for Emergency Comms.

Dennis
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: ONAIR on February 28, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
Absolutely no question in my mind that a reliance on the internet WILL come back to bite us on the a$$!!!
  When the power grid goes down, the internet, cell towers and repeaters won't do us much good.  Make sure your radios have battery or generator back ups.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K5UNX on March 02, 2012, 01:07:20 PM
I have a toolbox at home. I use different tools for different jobs. Saying we should never use the internet is like saying that I can never use my hammer. Yes it's not suitable for some jobs, but it is useful for others. I see the Internet the same way. It's a tool. What if there is need for emergency communication and the Internet is up and running? Do we ignore it because it's not "Classic" ham radio? That's foolish. I would say be able to use simplex, repeaters, Internet, whatever else is available . .
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K5LXP on March 03, 2012, 11:52:20 AM
What if there is need for emergency communication and the Internet is up and running?

"Skype".


Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K1CJS on March 04, 2012, 09:14:03 AM
That is one reason why I can't see the intelligence in pushing D-Star for emergency comms.  Without the internet, it is just another means of doing what ham radio does anyway, even if it can handle a data channel in its comm channel. 

Someone ought to rething the role of technology in these things--before some wiseacre thinks him or herself into a corner by mandating all this new technology in simple everyday communications--never mind emergency comms.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K7RBW on March 05, 2012, 06:50:23 AM
I don't know much about D-Star (except that the radios are expensive), but it would seem to fall into the same category as any other Internet-based ham-radio technology. When the Internet is up, you can use the Internet features. When it's not, you're back to simplex-FM.

So, it's not whether or not D-Star uses the Internet, it's whether or not your procedures and plans (that include D-Star) can accommodate falling back to a limited capacity.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K1CJS on March 07, 2012, 07:17:47 AM
...So, it's not whether or not D-Star uses the Internet, it's whether or not your procedures and plans (that include D-Star) can accommodate falling back to a limited capacity.

Ah, you're right--but I was referring to the groups that want to be totally reliant on D-Star technology, including accessing the internet for longer distance comms.  That isn't wise at all.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W5LZ on March 09, 2012, 09:35:06 AM
Whoa...
Did anyone say NOT to use the internet ~if it's available~?  The problem is that in some cases it won't be available and you shouldn't count on it being there.  That adaptability really is something to aim for, and that means not counting on any -one- means of communications (since that's what we're talking about).
 - 'Doc
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KK4GMU on March 09, 2012, 06:33:16 PM
The concensus opinion appears to favor a balanced approach - a diversity of tools to meet any situation.  Yes, experiment with new technoligy, but don't rely on it as a sole or even a primary means of emergency communications.  Assure that the basic simplex skills remain sharp.  Simplex is to D-Star as pencil and paper is to a keyboard, Windows 8, and a flat screen.

Heck, there may be a time when a pony express or smoke signals might be the fallback.  Who still has skills in these?
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KC2MMI on March 13, 2012, 04:09:26 PM
"When the power grid goes down, the internet, cell towers and repeaters won't do us much good."
 Yes and no. I have seen "the grid" go down after major hurricanes, and the cell towers were busy as all heck but cellular service stayed up 48 hours longer than the flooded and fallen phone lines. These days, that means internet service will probably be up as well.

 "The internet" is a global physical network, IT doesn't go down unless the planet blows up. Your local access will go down from time to time. Your ISP will go down from time to time. But "the internet" is an incredibly large and robust device, which never has "gone down" in it's entirety.

 The landlines aren't what they used to be. And part of the post-Katrina discussions resulted in cellco's making reciprocal arrangements, in many areas now whoever has whatever kind of fuel that is deployable, will deploy it to all towers from all carriers, And they've all invested substantial bucks in independent generator backup AT the towers.


Depnd on the internet? Hell no, no one in emcomm depends entirely on any one thing or person or organization. But "the internet" is an incredible tool and only a fool would make plans that didn't provide for using it, when they could. If your local access is down? For the price of a big screen TV you can buy an earth station and get satellite access. And yes, the satellite ISPs and some of the logistics companies have been stocking field-deployable emergency packs, just for that purpose.

Not the only tool, but a handy one to have.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K0RGR on March 14, 2012, 01:35:35 PM
The first question needs to be "Are any ARES groups planning to use the Internet for emergency communications?".  My answer would be 'none that I know of'.

Now, to backpedal a bit, there are people using WINLINK. WINLINK can operate without the Internet, if the correct pieces are in place, to do local routing of emails. But, most WINLINK setups I've read about are designed to direct the email traffic outside a disaster area to servers located where the Internet is still working. There are multiple, redundant servers that can be used for that purpose.

Still, that is infrastructure, and while it's nice to have some of that available, the most critical emergency communications will be needed in the first hours of a disaster, and will likely be tactical in nature. Voice is probably the preferred mode, but there are situations that definitely call for data comms, too, and WINLINK offers some major advantages for that. It's not encrypted but it's not man-readable, either, so it does have some security advantages over other digital tools that we have.

You need to use the BEST tool you have available. If all that's needed is a short hop to the nearest working Internet connection, it's nice to be able to use it.

A way to separate these things, but have them available for disasters is to use WINLINK for NTS and use more tactical things for ARES, but have ARES use NTS for traffic handling outside the disaster area. ARES folks should know how to use NTS, and vice-versa. And, they should know how to pass traffic by voice or CW if WINLINK doesn't work.

Around here, we're using  voice and NBEMS for ARES, and working on getting WINLINK up and running for NTS.
Title: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KC0SHZ on March 15, 2012, 04:59:17 PM
Most of the disasters in my area are very intense and localized.  A tornado may blow up a subdivision, but the rest of the city is intact.  Our worst storm in the past 10 years was an ice storm that wiped out electricity for about 60% of the city for a week.

If 60% of the city is without power, 40% is still working.  If ARES has a multi-node structure for it's comm needs then an EOC may be in the tornado destruction and be tiny little shards of radio now, but the other nodes out side the zone will be able to access internet-based resources (such as the health and welfare page of the Salvation Army) and utilize them.

If you base your total comm functionality on Dstar or Winlink then you are boned in the case of a downed EOC or repeater site.  If you use this as a means of communicating, but not the ONLY means, then it may help the remaining node(s) be more functional as the rest of the area or country will continue to use the internet for their basic communication needs.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KK4GMU on December 01, 2021, 06:01:13 PM
Now, nearly 10 years later, on this same topic, I believe things concerning the reliability of the internet have changed a bit.

A couple of fairly recent types of potential emergencies come to mind: A directed energy attack or cyber attack against either the electric grid or the internet infrastructure. 

Much has been written about this over the past few years.  And we have experienced a numerous cyber attacks against various segments of the internet - mostly ransomware attacks up till now.  But the capabilities for much wider damage from a broad variety of sources is growing.

If hostilities break out between the US and any number of other capable nations, whether China, Iran, Russia or North Korea, or by rogue actors, we should expect the above types of attacks.

My take on the comparison of simplex radio and the internet for emergency coms is this:  The more complex the system/infrastructure, the more vulnerable it becomes.

Heck, I even understand that Russia maintains, by design, a relatively robust vacuum tube technology within its military to avoid the extreme sensitivity of micro-circuits to EMP.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: N8AUC on December 01, 2021, 08:06:01 PM
The answer to the first question, are ARES groups relying to heavily on the internet?

I'd say yes. DMR, Fusion, D-Star, all of that, to communicate any great distance relies on the internet to do the heavy lifting. Now with that being said, all of those digital voice modes will work just fine without the internet. You just can't communicate much beyond the range of your local repeater. If all you've got is an HT and you're relying on internet linked repeaters, you're going to not be terribly effective for very long.

Is that a problem? Maybe yes, and maybe no. The internet itself, the core routers and servers, isn't likely to go down, and if it ever does, we've probably got bigger problems to deal with. When people say "the internet is down", what's usually the case is that their local on-ramp to the internet is down, which to an end user has the same effect. In that scenario, using Winlink to route email outside of the affected area to a place where the local on-ramp isn't broken will certainly get the job done.

For preparedness purposes, as a former EC and DEC, I'd recommend that ARES groups should be practicing VHF simplex, HF NVIS operation, and providing (and regularly testing) backup power for their stations. I can talk to my county EOC (and a few adjacent counties) on 2 meter simplex (analog or digital voice). I can talk directly to the state EOC 130 miles away just fine on 40 or 75 meters using NVIS propagation, not to mention state EOCs in several adjacent states. And I can pass digital traffic to all those locations using those modes as well, with or without commercial power being available.

ARES members should also know how to program their radios by hand, without the use of a computer.

Any computer you intend to rely on for operating digital modes, should be kept isolated from any access to the internet.

Bottom line, ARES members should have multiple tools in their toolbox, and be trained to use the right tool for the right job, depending on the circumstances.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: GRUMPY2021 on December 01, 2021, 11:51:00 PM
Around here if it's any deeper than "short time no comment" then we're screwed.   


ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KT4WO on December 02, 2021, 12:48:36 AM
"ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem."

You can now add SHARES and AUXCOM to that list.
They are the "new" ARES.
Ohhh.... and "Bayfunk" and Winlink will save the world.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: WW5F on December 02, 2021, 05:09:07 AM
If you're not practicing "worst case scenario" (I.E. without any other forms of communication outside of the radio you have in your hand or sitting on your desk), then you're setting yourself up for failure.

It's ok to have a computer connected to your radio, but if you're not practicing "setting up" without an internet connection first and without a cell phone, you're setting yourself up for failure.

Once the "comm network" is initially set up, running and successfully passing traffic, THEN, it's ok to use the internet.  If you're not doing this, you're setting yourself up for failure.

As an Air Force "comm guy", I see a lot of future failure that's going to happen when the "IT" hits the fan based on what I've seen in the ham community these days.

I see my MY internet connection getting progressively less reliable these days.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: WW5F on December 02, 2021, 05:32:10 AM
Most people don't realize how delicate our communications infrastructure is.  A couple of strategically placed "air burst" EMFs over the U.S. and the "IT" will be flying.

Anybody watching the news on recent capabilities being tested by other countries these days?

The "night the lights went out in Baghdad," the first explosion was the AT&T building in downtown Baghdad.  Communications is always at the top, or near the top of the Air Tasking Order.

If your group doesn't have a point of contact TODAY with your local EMS services (i.e. your local 911 call center) and are not already in their "emergency plan" and showing up at their regularly scheduled meetings (probably annually) when they're reviewing it, and participating with them when ever they have "exercises" in some form or fashion, then when the "IT" hits the fan and you show up and say you're there to help, it'll be too late.  They'll be implementing their current plan and there will be no time to add you to it.  They'll politely say, "Thanks, we'll call you if we need you, please get out of here, you're in our way right now."

All EMS use their "emergency comm system" every day in their normal duties.  And many state EMS agencies have backup plans if the primary goes down.  And some state EMS comm systems are getting pretty robust these days.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KD2HCU on December 02, 2021, 06:38:17 AM
Using a computer and using the internet can be two totally different things.  While some modes use a radio to access the internet, many others use a computer to access the radio.  DMR may be fun, I like it but it releys on the net.  Many digital modes just use the computer to interface with the radio as a sort of translator.  We gotta use whatever works at the time.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KK4GMU on December 02, 2021, 06:58:06 AM
We gotta use whatever works at the time.
And be prepared to use/integrate the most basic, lowest tech tools available.  They will be the least susceptible to failure may be the most reliable.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K3XR on December 02, 2021, 03:03:37 PM
I recall just after 9-11 much discussion about the lack intercommunication between emergency services at different levels and the same level in many instances.  I suppose some time spent in research might reveal the current state of affairs but I just wonder where all that has led some 20 plus years later.  When you discuss emergency communications ham radio may have a place. When dealing with the emergency services effective communications is essential.  From a safety standpoint I find the digital voice modes used by emergency services to be less than adequate.  An example that comes to mind results from listening to the State Police on the Pa Turnpike on a rebroadcast channel where you can hear the troopers audio go "digital".  The safety of the officer is of the upmost importance and there is absolutely no excuse for anything less than reliable communications at all times.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: WW5F on December 03, 2021, 05:25:32 AM
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43328/u-s-satellites-are-being-attacked-everyday-according-to-space-force-general (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43328/u-s-satellites-are-being-attacked-everyday-according-to-space-force-general)

How many "seconds to midnight" are we at again these days?
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W1VT on December 03, 2021, 06:56:51 AM
https://www.arednmesh.org/
Amateur Radio Emergency Data Network
Group Mission
To provide the Amateur Radio Community with a quality solution for supporting the needs of high speed data in the Amateur Radio and Emergency Communications field.

 
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KC3ECJ on December 07, 2021, 11:34:05 AM
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43328/u-s-satellites-are-being-attacked-everyday-according-to-space-force-general (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/43328/u-s-satellites-are-being-attacked-everyday-according-to-space-force-general)

How many "seconds to midnight" are we at again these days?

I know there are radios that have some settings to tune the audio, but I find that the vocoder used in DMR for example does a bad job handling higher pitched voices.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K4PIH on February 21, 2022, 06:00:50 PM
"ARES:    A solution desperately looking for a problem."

You can now add SHARES and AUXCOM to that list.
They are the "new" ARES.
Ohhh.... and "Bayfunk" and Winlink will save the world.

SHARES is not the new ARES, RACES, CB, or plain old ham radio. SHARES performs a critical emergency communications function via HF radio and can operate without the internet. SHARES regularly conducts operations in radio-only mode and works in conjunction with FEMA and other federal agencies.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W9FIB on February 22, 2022, 03:40:12 AM
There are 3 levels participation in any emergency.

1) Those that train for, drill on, and participate on a level that serves their area. Pouring coffee for victims or filling sandbags serves the communities. Radio is often the last thing needed, but yet your there to step away from the shovel and pick up a mic if needed. Thats prepared emergency service.

2) Those that show up with little or no training and expect to be the boss. The lit-up crown vic group. Or the group with 8 antennas mounted on a hard hat. Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.

3) Those that find excuses not to help and work to destroy anything good the first 2 can do. Just like some have done here.

Question is, which one are you?

Those unprepared or underprepared are the most likely to fail. Even if you prepare for yourself, you're in a far better position than those in 2 and 3.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 22, 2022, 03:44:20 AM
I really think we need to stop picking on DMR and other digital methods and be specific about the weak parts of it.
If you are on a DMR REPEATER that has a reasonable coverage area you still have that coverage area from that repeater.
If you are using a hotspot, your screwed if the Internet fails due to the fact a hotspot has no reasonable coverage area.

And this is NOT specific to digital modes either.  Echolink and other Internet based methods of linking analog repeaters will not work either.
I know my P25.link system is NOT gonna link if the Internet is down.  But With an antenna at 110 feet it has a reasonable coverage footprint and will still cover that area.  The site has a generator and battery plant so the repeater WILL stay on the air as long as the fuel holds and the sun shines or wind blows and charges the battery plant.  Beyond that... I will have more pressing issues to contend with than getting a repeater on the air.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KG4RUL on February 22, 2022, 05:07:14 AM
There are 3 levels participation in any emergency.

1) Those that train for, drill on, and participate on a level that serves their area. Pouring coffee for victims or filling sandbags serves the communities. Radio is often the last thing needed, but yet your there to step away from the shovel and pick up a mic if needed. Thats prepared emergency service.

2) Those that show up with little or no training and expect to be the boss. The lit-up crown vic group. Or the group with 8 antennas mounted on a hard hat. Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.

3) Those that find excuses not to help and work to destroy anything good the first 2 can do. Just like some have done here.

Question is, which one are you?

Those unprepared or underprepared are the most likely to fail. Even if you prepare for yourself, you're in a far better position than those in 2 and 3.

I have to agree - What I have found over the years is:
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 22, 2022, 08:47:41 PM

 Or the "if I can't do radio, I am going home" group. Or the "ain't my job" group.


These are the folks that are a solution that's looking for a problem that no one has any more. 
And ultimately the reason I have little use of what ARES has turned into for the most part.
We are hobbyists of technology.  Sure it's sort of specifically radio, but there are things that can be done with 'radio' that don't involve talking on it. 
I have spelled out a number of things that we could be doing and preparing for on here that NEVER get any feedback.  Because they don't involve sitting on your butt rattling off your call sign into a radio, they aren't worth bothering with. 

And the 'going home' part... why even bother to show up? 
Here's the hard truth.  If you show up to a shelter similar site and they have you pouring coffee YOUR RADIO operator abilities ARE NOT NEEDED.  The part of this that blows my mind is that these folks will keep showing up and leave in a huff because they will be pouring coffee or some other mundane task that needs done that's not radio related. 

And these are the same folks that will drop a Disney vacation's cost into some box of radios they refer to as a 'GO KIT'. That never gets used when it does GO anywhere other than maybe field day. 

But I will go down the path of the 'It ain't my job' group and say this.  They are exactly right. 
Any time there is a mundane task to be performed, the people in the shelter that are getting free room and board could and should be doing that. 
Setting up beds, cooking, making coffee.  That is all stuff for people that are guests of someone else's hospitality should be taking care of. 
Not the guy that showed up to provide communications.  If no communications support is needed then the folks in charge need to send the ham operators on their way and NOT have them doing other things.  And here's why.  The folks that are in a shelter have no where else to go.  That's why they are in the shelter.  Any time you bring a bunch of people together you create a breeding ground for the transfer of any and all viruses and the like that come in the place.  MINIMIZING the total number of people in a shelter is ALWAYS the best policy. 
And I never seen an ARES member bring their own food and drink to ANY operations site, not a training, not a full on disaster, none of it. I am sure that some do, but I never seen it.  Which means that you are another mouth to feed from a limited food supply. 

So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out. 
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W9FIB on February 23, 2022, 04:22:25 AM
So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 25, 2022, 05:51:49 PM
So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 
THe group to the west was made infamous by their stupidity with comments about keeping members in their assigned locations during a Public service operation by 'shooting them in the leg'.  Yes, this went out in an EMAIL which got forwarded to the Sheriff, City police dept, FBI, and the organization that put on the event.  Needless to say they are not doing that event any more.  So yeah, not a lot of choices for a group to get behind around here.  The tower I manage and maintain for another ham that's been discussed elsewhere on here has been slowly developing into a reasonably decent communications facility for ham radio and continues to grow in that regard. 
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W9FIB on February 26, 2022, 04:31:38 AM
So when you are ask to leave.  Do so graciously.  Inform them where you will be if they need assistance later and head out.

Actually, I have found that most organizations will NOT ask you to leave if you simply do the task they ask you to do. And that is group 1.

As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 
THe group to the west was made infamous by their stupidity with comments about keeping members in their assigned locations during a Public service operation by 'shooting them in the leg'.  Yes, this went out in an EMAIL which got forwarded to the Sheriff, City police dept, FBI, and the organization that put on the event.  Needless to say they are not doing that event any more.  So yeah, not a lot of choices for a group to get behind around here.  The tower I manage and maintain for another ham that's been discussed elsewhere on here has been slowly developing into a reasonably decent communications facility for ham radio and continues to grow in that regard.

Sounds great that you are doing what you can do. I applaud that and would even make that a challenge to other hams to do what they CAN do regardless of any bad organization that may be there.

I am lucky we have a good group here. Guess we have 1 thing that helps. The communications director at the Sherriff's department is also a ham. Our repeater antenna is on top of their tower rent free. And we work diligently to maintain our quality of service to the community as a whole. Yet we do it quietly. No vehicles with lights and sirens...the crown vic group I mentioned earlier.

Keep up your good work! Anything done to prepare is a plus in my opinion.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: N8AUC on February 26, 2022, 08:50:43 PM
As to ARES, each is locally run by each ARES group. There are good ones, and there are bad ones. True of any groups in any large volunteer organization. Instead of condemning all groups, maybe it is time to look for the good ones and just write off the bad. I got lucky here...local group is a good one and well respected by county emergency government and law enforcement. While not needed often, we show up ready to do what is needed when asked.

Exactly right.
Whether your county ARES group is good or not, depends on the EC,
the training the EC has taken, and the training he/she provides for their volunteers.
It definitely varies from location to location.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: N8AUC on February 26, 2022, 09:02:48 PM
I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 

I don't even want to know why that guy thought he needed a light bar on his car.
I was an EC for 5 years, and never saw the need for that. Ever.


Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 27, 2022, 05:23:01 AM
I unfortunately have not had your experience with ARES.  We have a group here that the EC was finally told by the EMA and Sheriff that he needed to remove the lettering or the light bar from his car.  He got mad and quit being EC, club president, changed his ham call and doesn't talk on the repeater any more. 

I don't even want to know why that guy thought he needed a light bar on his car.
I was an EC for 5 years, and never saw the need for that. Ever.

He was an EMT, the county EC and had 'search dogs'.  Car was a sold off city cruiser that was setup as a dog car.  Had the remote controlled rear doors that would let the dog out.  But he pretty much took a second red lens with him when he got the car and removed the blue lens.  As an EMT he was legal for a red bar.  Then he lettered the car almost the same as it was.  Put the 911 on it and all the rest.  The city had a 4 inch blue reflective stripe on their cars.  He replaced the stripe with blue reflective lettering "AMATEUR RADIO EMERGENCY SERVICES" down both sides of the car. 
This was the same guy that DEMANDED assignments from the EMA director when the county would do training exercises.  And ran the ARES group as if it were of new recruits and he was a Drill Sargent.   
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: AC2EU on February 27, 2022, 08:11:30 AM
Quote
So, a question I pose is this:  Is there excessive reliance newer technoligies that rely on the internet as support infrastructure?  Is there too little reliance on cultivating hams to participate in basic simplex or repeater operation to provide needed communication in a disaster or emergency situation?

YES

Also, reliance on incompatible proprietary technologies like Dstar and system Fusion should be eliminated.
The open source DMR project should be embraced as the standard. Interoperability is key in an emergency!

I never bought radios with either of the competing proprietary digital systems. I always thought it would lead to a mess and it it did. Ham radio was always traditionally "open source" and home brew anyway. Let's keep it that way!
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on February 27, 2022, 07:31:26 PM
Quote
So, a question I pose is this:  Is there excessive reliance newer technoligies that rely on the internet as support infrastructure?  Is there too little reliance on cultivating hams to participate in basic simplex or repeater operation to provide needed communication in a disaster or emergency situation?

YES

Also, reliance on incompatible proprietary technologies like Dstar and system Fusion should be eliminated.
The open source DMR project should be embraced as the standard. Interoperability is key in an emergency!

I never bought radios with either of the competing proprietary digital systems. I always thought it would lead to a mess and it it did. Ham radio was always traditionally "open source" and home brew anyway. Let's keep it that way!

Oh yeah,,, I am all for that idea.
And the DMR stuff needs to be configured in a manner that is resilient if you are using it for emergency comms. 
Sites really should support two bands, typically VHF and UHF, and be linked via WiFi and small panels or dishes and not ISP provided connections at least not in your area.  If a club has two or three towers they need to link those towers.  And cost on this stuff isn't all that bad.  Ubiquiti Bullets are really cheap and there are other equally good and inexpensive solutions out there for doing this. 

Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K3XR on February 28, 2022, 06:40:15 AM
One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: AC2EU on February 28, 2022, 07:54:13 AM
One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 

Is it the militaristic terms or the paranoia that strikes you?
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: W9FIB on March 01, 2022, 03:30:15 AM
One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 

I don't see what so special about a lot of what you quoted. Many are common terms used in engineering, some are opinion, some are more focused on working a plan like a business plan but with different goals.

Beats me what the fuss is.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on March 07, 2022, 02:16:58 PM
One of the things I find interesting are the words people choose. This thread did not disappoint.  Words and phrases like...component, sideways, step around, mission focus, comms, adaptability, back pedal, redundant, tactical, functionality, rogue actors, toolbox, worst case scenario, solution looking for a problem, go kit, cultivating. 

I don't see what so special about a lot of what you quoted. Many are common terms used in engineering, some are opinion, some are more focused on working a plan like a business plan but with different goals.

Beats me what the fuss is.

Yeah, I went back and read the thread over again.  Some of what was mentioned was stuff I said.  Not sure why it's an issue.

I did get a kick out of the idea of cultivating hams to operate in a certain manner.  That's NOT gonna happen.  And several have pointed that out and in truth it's the basis of the whole thread.  And forgive me (sort of) for saying this, but I don't see connecting a 'hotspot' to the internet and talking to it via a radio that's in the same room as being much at all to do with ham radio.  Yeah, your using ham frequencies and a network that is ham related, but if someone was to put up different reflectors and you were to program the hot spots and radios to Itinerant frequencies, it would all work just the same and NOT be ham radio at all.  Not sure if it would be technically legal, but if you decreased the power output below what the FCC requires a license for, I am thinking you are good. 

I will say that there is WAY more traffic on those hot spots any more than any of the analog repeaters across the country.  And I think that's a shame.
I know what goes into installing and maintaining them... God knows I have put up a bunch. But that's part of being a communications field tech.   I do support the idea of bringing new technology into ham radio.  I think the DMR thing is great personally.  But the Internet linking part of it has it's limits.   And relying on the linking portion of it, via the Internet anyway, needs to be looked at closely for stuff that is going to be used for mission critical communications or ARES.  Because the whole idea of EMCOMM is to be able to communicate when other stuff ain't working.  You know...


!!!!WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS!!!!!


God I hate that saying.  But it's the truth in this case. 
But that's why you have battery plants and generators and the like at your communications sites.  And you link them by other means besides the Internet.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: N8AUC on March 07, 2022, 02:56:45 PM
Because the whole idea of EMCOMM is to be able to communicate when other stuff ain't working.  You know...


!!!!WHEN ALL ELSE FAILS!!!!!


God I hate that saying.  But it's the truth in this case. 
But that's why you have battery plants and generators and the like at your communications sites.  And you link them by other means besides the Internet.

I could not agree more with that statement.
Not only did you hit the nail squarely on the head, you've driven it clean through the board!
Title: Re: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KC3TEC on November 08, 2022, 07:59:09 AM
I have a toolbox at home. I use different tools for different jobs. Saying we should never use the internet is like saying that I can never use my hammer. Yes it's not suitable for some jobs, but it is useful for others. I see the Internet the same way. It's a tool. What if there is need for emergency communication and the Internet is up and running? Do we ignore it because it's not "Classic" ham radio? That's foolish. I would say be able to use simplex, repeaters, Internet, whatever else is available . .

That is precisely the point.
Ham radios and operators are tools for use in an emergency, to rely on only one method is a foolish endeavor.
How good will the internet or even repeater towers be if they are burned up in a forest fire?
Many of us hams do get training in disater communications, and are members of ares and other e response organizations.
As to other posts" politely asking them to leave"
If they are not interfering with operations or placing themselves or anyone else in danger there is absolutely no reason to ask them to leave
( with the possible exception of vloggers at a fatality scene)
As i mentioned in another posts
If they cant be utilized in the communication itself they are still a valuable asset if they can observe and write.
Writing down what they hear and see is often from different angles and they may see or hear something others might miss.

An investigator often has to piece a complicated puzzle together to avoid purely circumstantial evidence.
So an eyewitness is vital to getting a clear picture of the situation.
But i do agree on one point.
If they say that if i cant do radio i wont help! The yes ask them to leave.
Title: Re: RE: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: KB8VUL on December 04, 2022, 07:31:40 AM
I have a toolbox at home. I use different tools for different jobs. Saying we should never use the internet is like saying that I can never use my hammer. Yes it's not suitable for some jobs, but it is useful for others. I see the Internet the same way. It's a tool. What if there is need for emergency communication and the Internet is up and running? Do we ignore it because it's not "Classic" ham radio? That's foolish. I would say be able to use simplex, repeaters, Internet, whatever else is available . .

That is precisely the point.
Ham radios and operators are tools for use in an emergency, to rely on only one method is a foolish endeavor.
How good will the internet or even repeater towers be if they are burned up in a forest fire?
Many of us hams do get training in disater communications, and are members of ares and other e response organizations.
As to other posts" politely asking them to leave"
If they are not interfering with operations or placing themselves or anyone else in danger there is absolutely no reason to ask them to leave
( with the possible exception of vloggers at a fatality scene)
As i mentioned in another posts
If they cant be utilized in the communication itself they are still a valuable asset if they can observe and write.
Writing down what they hear and see is often from different angles and they may see or hear something others might miss.

An investigator often has to piece a complicated puzzle together to avoid purely circumstantial evidence.
So an eyewitness is vital to getting a clear picture of the situation.
But i do agree on one point.
If they say that if i cant do radio i wont help! The yes ask them to leave.

Well, since I said that, along with others, I will do my level best to indicate why I feel that way.
We are radio people.  Any able bodied person sitting in a shelter can make coffee, setup cots, and the myriad of other non-technical things that are needed to be done at a disaster relief site. But none of them have radios in tow, are fully self contained (if you show up have EVERYTHING YOU NEED down to toilet paper, coffee and food to sustain yourself or don't go) and have a specific ability they don't.

If there is not a specific need for communications where you are at, go find someplace that does need additional assistance with communications.  Or work from home and in your neighborhood providing health and welfare comms for the locals. 
And the universal thing everyone wants during and directly after a disaster is information.  If you have the ability to gather information from other hams, radio monitoring and such , then do that.  Again, the locals that are otherwise cut off from that information will be grateful to know whats going on when their cell phones leave them without. 

Now if you want to leave all the work and personal abilities behind and pour coffee for others, then by all means, do it.  But if you want to contribute your skills, then find a way to do that instead.
Title: Re: Are ARES and similar groups relying excessively on the internet?
Post by: K9CTB on January 27, 2023, 10:46:47 AM
Many amateur radio emergency organizations do make use of the internet because there are so many ways to connect to it in a situation.  That said, the more relevant ECOM entities also train to use alternative (radio based, tin cans and string, a kid with a bicycle, etc.) means for getting and disseminating required information in the event internet service is denied.  Remember, the "internet" has become a prime target for bad players who wish to do harm on a regional or national scale.  We've dodged the bullet so to speak, so far ... but that "so far" gives us a little extra time to train.  Serious ECOM operators should use that time wisely IMHO.