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eHam Forums => Hamfests => Topic started by: N4OI on May 21, 2013, 04:57:02 AM

Title: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 21, 2013, 04:57:02 AM
And not Orlando, Vegas, Atlanta (or even Charlotte)?   Better flights, nicer accomodations, newer facilities, other stuff to do... Enquiring minds need to be reminded...

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 21, 2013, 06:19:22 AM
The Hara is a deplorable, decrepit, dump (the three D's), but the fact is, DARA runs Hamvention, and no one else.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W5CPT on May 21, 2013, 06:20:03 AM
In a word: Tradition. They have been doing it since 1952. 

I believe there are many other venues that would be more appealing for all the reasons you mentioned and a few you didn't.

Clint - W5CPT -
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W1ITT on May 21, 2013, 09:11:10 AM
Although the physical infrastructure of the Hamvention is deplorable, Dayton has something much more valuable. That is the human infrastructure.  How they have been able to hold the organization together for over half a century is a wonderful mystery.  How many radio clubs have we heard of that thrived for a while and then fell apart due to internal strife?  I'm sure that the DARA has had its internal disagreements over the years, but nonetheless they have managed to hold things together and keep the hamfest running.
While pundits occasionally suggest that the event be moved away from Dayton to some venue with better transportation connections, a better venue, more lodging and restaurants, the fact is that this would require the uprooting of the human infrastructure...  and that just isn't going to happen.  If any group believes that they have a better location,  better facilities, and maybe even a better idea, I suppose they are welcome to give it a try.  It's easy to stand on the outside of an existing event and second guess the operations.  It takes a lot of work to start from an idea and build the momentum and reputation of a notable hamfest.
I attended Hamvention about a decade ago, and had a great time, but I probably won't return just  because of the crummy facilities.  However, having been a founding partner in New England's largest hamfest for 34 years and having some idea of what it takes to put things together, I have nothing but admiration for the fellows who keep Dayton running.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8KIW on May 21, 2013, 05:39:28 PM
I think history will show that if you move an event to make it better, usually the opposite will happen.  As much as people complain they seem to return each year.  Maybe it is the mystery of how these volunteers pull it off each year?  Orlando or Charlotte?  No offense, but I've been to each and they lack so much.  Vegas-too far.  Atlanta-when was the last time you tried to drive there?  That and the crime rate cause people to avoid it.  Huntsville puts on a nice hamfest, but I don't think they could handle the flea market: but accomodations and cost of flights could me issues there.  Like it or not, Dayton is probably within 500 miles of the majority of hams in the US and Canada and HARA is located just miles from the intersection of two of America's busiest major Interstates.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 22, 2013, 07:26:00 PM
The Hara is a deplorable, decrepit, dump (the three D's), but the fact is, DARA runs Hamvention, and no one else.


No one seems to be disputing the poor conditions of the Dayton facility.  Perhaps local ARCs should focus on local and regional hamfests, while a manufacturers' consortium steps up to host a first-rate, annual, international event at a more suitable location -- just a thought...

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K0JEG on May 23, 2013, 09:22:40 AM
The ARRL focus is on the Division conventions (http://www.arrl.org/hamfests/rocky-mountain-division-convention-hamcon-colorado-2013), not a large national event. That leaves a hole that ends up getting filled by Dayton. If it wanted to, the ARRL could hold a national convention, but that takes resources away from the divisions and other efforts. And the whole point of conventions, at least in my industry, is to get a bunch of vendors to pay big bucks to set up on the show floor and set up shop. Trying to find enough vendors that would be willing to set up (and staff) a booth for a few days isn't easy, and there are enough retail locations that we can check out equipment we're interested in any time anyway.

The other side of a convention is going to seminars that may or may not be useful. Since we're a learn-by-doing group, sitting through a talk about a subject might not be as useful as just trying it out. Although it is fun listening to Bob Brunninga complain about the APRS network.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8AAZ on May 23, 2013, 05:56:52 PM
Well the quaint crumbling but historical venue of the Hara seems novel just because of what it is, and I sort of am used to it.  However some of the necessary accomodations are always nasty, and I found myself stumbling on the crumbling pavement in the flea market numerous times. At some point they will have to include some sort of legal disclaimer on your ticket such as they have for sports tickets. You accept the risk of maybe being beaned by a foul ball and therefore maybe accept the risk of breaking a leg or contracting a disease to enjoy the hamvention?  ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K4NMO on May 23, 2013, 07:07:20 PM
It needs to move so we can leverage having so many HAM individuals together.  If the meeting were held in the mid-Atlantic region (Baltimore, Md.; Richmond, etc.) or Washington DC, the members could lobby their representatives on issues of importance to our community.

Plus there are much better facilities, airports and things to do.  Visit battlefields, museums, memorials, etc.

Then there is Vegas.

73s!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9ZW on May 24, 2013, 09:37:05 AM
One wonders if Dayton's lack of security will ever be an issue?

The Hara posting no Weapons allowed, even for those with permits, was not very reassuring.  Dayton is rough and having a large amount of cash transactions purposely left unprotected is an issue.  Guess the few police and rental-security will keep us safe.

Given the age and ambulatory state of many Hamvention attendees the broken pavement, deep pot holes, uneven flooring and other "hit by" & "trip fall" hazards are an issue.

In many other states and cities the Hara as it is is unlikely to have gotten public event permits.

While attending tradeshows and hobby events in many other venues, including overseas, I've not seen anyplace as sorry at the Hara. 

Every year I wonder why we put up with the place.

Thinking of checking out Hamcon or Hamcation for 2014 myself. 

73

Steve
K9ZW

BLOG (Including my Dayton 2013 Recap):  http://k9zw.wordpress.com/ (http://k9zw.wordpress.com/)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KE7TMA on May 25, 2013, 01:47:03 AM
If you have a concealed carry permit I wold advise ignoring the "rule" and packing anyway.  At the worst they can kick you off the property, but if it's concealed how could they know?

It's just a stupid convention center, not a federal courthouse.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 25, 2013, 04:51:22 AM

.....Thinking of checking out Hamcon or Hamcation for 2014 myself. 

73

Steve
K9ZW

Friedrichshafen!  Beautiful clean, modern facilities.

The Dayton Hamvention isn't going anywhere.  DARA owns it.  So until another club decides to host a large convention, this is it.  In this year's Hamvention program book, DARA shows pictures of the construction of an addition to their "clubhouse", and large building with a tower alongside of it.  All the clubs I've belonged to rent meeting space in a hotel suite, or beg the local township for a meeting room.  DARA has a "clubhouse".  Look at the pictures, and you can understand why they have a death grip on "Hamvention".
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 26, 2013, 03:55:05 AM
I think history will show that if you move an event to make it better, usually the opposite will happen.  As much as people complain they seem to return each year.  Maybe it is the mystery of how these volunteers pull it off each year?  Orlando or Charlotte?  No offense, but I've been to each and they lack so much.  Vegas-too far.  Atlanta-when was the last time you tried to drive there?  That and the crime rate cause people to avoid it.  Huntsville puts on a nice hamfest, but I don't think they could handle the flea market: but accomodations and cost of flights could me issues there.  Like it or not, Dayton is probably within 500 miles of the majority of hams in the US and Canada and HARA is located just miles from the intersection of two of America's busiest major Interstates.

Yep, yep, yep.  No offense to the guys with the east coast call signs, but your calls to move it east (with the exception of Vegas) are pretty transparent.  This has been bantered about time and again.....Dayton Ohio sits geographically in a spot that's equidistant to something like 75% of the population of the United States.  Major transportation freight hubs, air, rail, trucking, are all located in the region because of that exact reason.  Yes, Hara is a miserable dump, but moving it far from there will have an opposite effect on attendance. At some point, DARA will have to deal with this train wreck.  There is lots of growth between Dayton and Cincinnati, but the issue there is traffic.  Always something.     
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8OCN on May 29, 2013, 08:26:27 PM
I have been going to Dayton when I could for over 30 years. Yes I have to walk slow and watch my step out in the flea market, I really wish they would put a new top layer on the parking lot but that is not going to be a deal breaker for me.
I drive 250 miles and pay to much for the room for 3 days but I will continue to go as long as I am able to go.

I have memories there, not all great (got ripped off on a VHF rig the first year I was licensed) but for the most part it has been great.

Its hot, smells if it rains and they inside is full of over weight (including myself) sweating people.

With all that said I go to spend time with my friends and I really like the people that run the hamvention! I have 2 companies I run and I cant get the same attitude from my employees and I am paying them, the people that run the hamvention is what makes it GREAT and worth the drive!

Thank You everyone involved in making it "Dayton"

If they moved it I would not go, not because I was mad just because it would not be "Dayton"

My favorite thing to do at Dayton is bring a new ham with my and just walk around, their jaw hits the floor and it just very cool.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 30, 2013, 11:38:33 AM
Whenever thread topics about Dayton come up, the OP usually implies that there is some kind of larger overhead planning body who'd decide they've had enough of Dayton/HARA and move it to the Bahamas or something, because it's pretty cool being there.  "Dayton is Dayton" because of DARA....the "D" part of DARA should be the dead giveaway.  The League shows up in a big way because the Hamvention is big, that's it.  They have no cat in the fight concerning city, facility, etc....only DARA puts together Hamvention. 

If you don't like HARA (who does?) or Dayton, please by all means try this in a city near you....nobody's stopping you.  I'm guessing you won't get much help from DARA, though.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 31, 2013, 05:18:05 AM
....only DARA puts together Hamvention. 

OK -- I am reminded now.  I guess the manufacturers are OK with that.   I guess the attendees are OK with that.  I guess I am one of few hams that would never go to Dayton... but would consider attending a national hamfest at any other "real" convention hub: San Francisco, Las Vegas, St. Louis, New Orleans, Nashville, Atlanta (same longitude as Dayton, BTW), Charlotte, Orlando, Washington, DC, ..........   

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AA4PB on May 31, 2013, 05:30:36 AM
The point is that the Dayton Hamvention is put on by a local club. There is no national organization that has control over Hamvention. You, or anyone else, are free to start a hamfest in any location that you choose. All you need to do is find a bunch of volunteers who are willing to invest their time and money to get started. DARA members live in the Dayton area. I doubt that you will find many of them willing to travel to Washington, DC several times a year to set up and coordinate a hamfest in that area.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 31, 2013, 06:03:04 AM
The point is that the Dayton Hamvention is put on by a local club. There is no national organization that has control over Hamvention. You, or anyone else, are free to start a hamfest in any location that you choose. All you need to do is find a bunch of volunteers who are willing to invest their time and money to get started. DARA members live in the Dayton area. I doubt that you will find many of them willing to travel to Washington, DC several times a year to set up and coordinate a hamfest in that area.


I agree with every comment above.  DARA has obviously been over-achieving and I doubt any local ARC could do any better.  But as I suggested above, perhaps it is time for ARCs to stick to local and regional events and allow a commercial manufacturers' alliance (not ARRL, who does a great job as our political advocate) take the national hamfest to a new level...  Just look to the NAB as a model.   

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W5CPT on May 31, 2013, 07:36:17 AM
I can't help but to wonder how much greater the Hamvention would be if it had the organization skills of DARA and a newer, safer, cleaner, bigger and better venue.  Is there a place in or near Dayton that could host the Hamvention?

Clint - W5CPT -
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 31, 2013, 10:38:45 AM
Good points, Clint.  Hara is such a train wreck that you'd hope something would be in the works.  I still can't believe that a Health Dept function at some level didn't hit them hard after the sewage blowout.  They're so lucky that someone didn't get dysentery or hepatitis or something. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K4NMO on May 31, 2013, 11:14:25 AM
There is one other point about Dayton... when it is held.  If the event (where ever it is held) occurred later in the year... after schools are out, we might be able to get more children and young adults to participate.

May is still school time for college kids taking their finals and youngsters are still in school too.

Just a thought.  ::)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on June 01, 2013, 07:29:25 AM
.......  Is there a place in or near Dayton that could host the Hamvention?

Clint - W5CPT -
As I understand it, there is nothing even close in the Dayton area the could accommodate the Hamvention.   I gjess  olumbus is the next closest city in Ohio...... but then it wouldn't be the Dayton Hamvention.....
Though I often wondered just how much interfacing DARA does with the Hara facilities between shows?

I had the opportunity to speak with a lovely young woman rep from a German SDR manufacturer, and I asked her about the Friedrichshafen hamfest facilities.  She hesitated for a moment, and when I assured her to speak her mind she said the place was very modern and clean and not like the Hara.  My friend and I then gave her a new word to take back home with her to use to describe where she had just been.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K0JEG on June 02, 2013, 10:21:22 AM
.......  Is there a place in or near Dayton that could host the Hamvention?

Clint - W5CPT -
As I understand it, there is nothing even close in the Dayton area the could accommodate the Hamvention.   I gjess  olumbus is the next closest city in Ohio...... but then it wouldn't be the Dayton Hamvention.....
Though I often wondered just how much interfacing DARA does with the Hara facilities between shows?

I had the opportunity to speak with a lovely young woman rep from a German SDR manufacturer, and I asked her about the Friedrichshafen hamfest facilities.  She hesitated for a moment, and when I assured her to speak her mind she said the place was very modern and clean and not like the Hara.  My friend and I then gave her a new word to take back home with her to use to describe where she had just been.

Sorry to go political here, but Hara arena is privately owned and operated. Messe friedrichshafen (as far as I can figure out, site of the International Exhibition for Radio Amateurs) appears to be run by the local municipality. That makes a huge difference when it comes to lining up financing for expansion and improvements.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 06, 2013, 05:59:49 AM
JEG.....

EVERYTHING, private and public, is nicer over there.  The differences are much deeper than just who funds what.  Their society hasn't devolved into the slovenly, obese, lazy one of modern America.  Americans stick out like sore thumbs over there, and it's not a pretty sight.

While I agree that there's a political component to be avoided here, I'd argue that there are much bigger issues of lacking dignity and self-respect here at home.  It's a race to the bottom in American culture today.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: G6GIY on June 07, 2013, 10:20:41 AM
I think the guys do a great job at Dayton but I would like to see the Hamvention at Las Vegas for at least one year.Perhaps the dealers and manufacturers could assist by flying key members of DARA to Vegas to mastermind the show.
 Having said that I will be back at Dayton next year but I would be embarrassed  to take any one else to that awful building.

G6GIY
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on June 07, 2013, 05:37:28 PM
I still wonder just how much interface DARA has with the Hara Arena between shows.  If you think about it, the inside exhibits are nothing more than a conglomeration of cubes. There's no reason to believe that DARA couldn't host the Hamvention in another regional location; Columbus,  or Cincinnati.perhaps. Other organizations hold their conventions around the country, so why couldn't DARA?  I've heard that renting the renting the entire Hara complex isn't cheap, so what keeps Hamvention there? No doubt a big reason is familiarity.   Everybody knows the drill, year after year.  Whether you're hopping on the shuttle, queing up for a scooter rental, or negotiating the pothole, crater ridden back driveway to pull into the tailgate area, we all know the drill.  DARA knows it too. It's all familiar.... all too familiar, and familiarity certainly does breed complacency.  But why move it? Every May, we come, 24,500 strong this this year, and we spend.  Can you imagine the amount of currency being exchanged in that decrepit pit for those three days?  I had one of those moments this year as I was waiting to use the "lavatory". There I was standing there, with a three thousand dollar wad in my pocket, waiting to take a wiz in a crappy (literally) port-o-john.  Don't I deserve better? Don't we all deserve better?  It's an embarrassment to see the G's, the PY's, the JA's, the DL's, and the rest of DX attendees walking the fleamarket, stumbling into the deep potholes that litter the shabby parking lot.  It makes a person, proud of his country want to apologize to our visitors, "It's not like this everywhere, really it is isn't!" But why bother to move it to a new location.  They put the show on every year and we come,  leaving behind million's of dollars in the Dayton economy.  It's not going to change until the Hara is demolished, or we stop coming..
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 13, 2013, 06:30:18 AM
Yep, pretty sad.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA1NOS on June 14, 2013, 12:43:55 PM
...But why bother to move it to a new location.  They put the show on every year and we come,  leaving behind million's of dollars in the Dayton economy. It's not going to change until the Hara is demolished, or we stop coming..


And there is the answer right there.  Once people stop showing up and dropping their dollars there, there will be a massive incentive to either clean up the current venue or find a different (read that better) one faster than one can say "Friedrichshafen".

What's that definition of insanity?  Oh yeah...doing the exact same thing over and over while expecting a different result each time.

Shameless plug:  Huntsville Hamfest in August.

Regards,
-Bruce
WE4AU
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 14, 2013, 07:25:07 PM
A big part of the problem is that so many at the Hamvention look like they came from the same deplorable conditions as Hara, so they probably don't know any difference.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on June 15, 2013, 04:49:02 AM
Shameless plug:  Huntsville Hamfest in August.

In Charlotte, those riding the motorized chairs would be inspired after going to the NASCAR Hall of Fame...  I envision a slow-motion lap at the Charlotte Motor Speedway for pink slips...   (shameless, rediculous plug)

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K7NSW on June 15, 2013, 07:24:45 AM
The future?  Guys like me will not help Dayton.  I am a licensed ham of many years.  I now have time on my hands, some disposable income, and a willingness to go to an event like Dayton and spend some money on food, lodging, ham treasures, etc.  But go to Dayton and a place like the Hara?  Forget it.  Those who apparently know the facts report attendance is down and will likely continue to slide.  I suppose the folks who put on the event will continue to milk it for whatever it will produce for however long it will last.  Then a lack of attendance or the results of a personal injury law suit will finally kill it.  Based on what I am hearing and reading, the clock is running out on Dayton.  Who will attend when the geezers go away?  One attendee/commentator who attended Dayton this year noted that most of the dwindling patrons were clearly senior citizens.  The newbies are not showing up in enough numbers to keep the event going.  The historic significance and romance of it all will probably be lost on the new generation of hams.  Bob Hope was famous for saying "Thanks for the memories".  Looks to me like the Dayton Convention is heading to a new address on Memory Lane.  What a shame that such a good thing cannot or will not be moved to a more favorable venue.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 16, 2013, 09:27:49 AM
I think people attend, behave, etc according to their surroundings.  Hara is as low as it gets.   Legions of smelly obese hams on scooters....just the thing to show off America's premiere ham radio event to the world.  I saw one guy even try taking the hill (the shaded steep grassy area just outside the building) on his scooter.  He made it up 6 or so feet before his scooter protested the 450 pound load, and came tumbling back down.  He just laid on the pavement like a beached whale.  When the EMT pulled up in his Gator, he got out and stood over the beauty sprawled out and just asked: "alright Hoss, what's going on?"



Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2YO on June 16, 2013, 12:54:31 PM
Those who apparently know the facts report attendance is down and will likely continue to slide.

Richard,
Who exactly are you quoting?

According to the published records, the attendance has been rising every year for the last 6 years, the same way the total number of hams is rising every year. I'm curious who is spouting these lies about amateur radio shrinking, because they are absolutely not true.

You need to be more careful about who you believe and where you get the information you are going to quote.

Bernie
K2YO
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AA4PB on June 16, 2013, 01:28:02 PM
Actually if you look at the DARA web page you'll find the following:
   attendance peaked at 33,669 in 1993.
   then an overall decline with some peaks and valleys.
   bottomed out at 17,250 in 2008
   its been climbing since then to 24,542 in 2013.

So, it declined for a while and has recently been coming back.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2YO on June 16, 2013, 02:00:26 PM
So, it declined for a while and has recently been coming back.

That is exactly my point. Over the last 5 or 6 years, in a bad economy, the Hamvention attendance has been growing. People keep wanting to say it's dying, but the show is on an upswing.

Bernie
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 16, 2013, 08:34:27 PM
Beer sales looked like they were on the upswing, too.

Hey...that's it!  I think we've figured out why we keep going back to Hara.  See what you can learn here on eHam....we've cracked the Hara mystery.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K5MF on June 22, 2013, 08:25:41 PM
Arm chair quarterbacks...amazes me.  I have never been to Dayton but would love to go.  I cannot because I am a teacher but one day I will go when I am able.  But that is not important what people need to understand is that putting on an event like Dayton is not something you just decide to move.  It is a tremendous undertaking to promote any event.  If not, we would all be promoting rock stars across the country and making millions.  The fact is that most of us have no clue what it takes to put on an event even half the size.  The reason it stays in Dayton is because D.A.R.A. has learned how to do it, have the volunteers, not just to work it, but who know how to plan it and negotiate the requirements.  I am willing to bet a dollar to a donut that if D.A.R.A. posted on eHam today that they were getting out of the business and would be willing to give the event to whatever club could handle it, there were be no club capable of standing up and saying they could do it.  Don't believe me, just try organizing even a small event like a special operating event.  Just try it and see what happens.  Pick a historical site near your location and plan a special event station with the requirements that you operate 24 x 7 for a 3 day period on 3 bands.  Make sure you have operators to cover all shifts as well as PR people present to explain what is going on.  You can either sell concessions yourself or hire someone else to do it for you - you keep the profits.  Don't forget to promote your event to get people to come out.  You decide if you want to charge admission or not.  Try to get one major vendor to come and if you have the nerve, tell them you are going to charge them to attend.  Now, most of us have no clue where to start.  Maybe we think we do, but we do not.  And even if we do, most of us do not the time, energy, or gonads to take it on.

So get off your high horses folks.  This has been discussed and disgusted over and over.  The D.A.R.A folks have looked at other venues and for whatever reason have not found anything suitable at this time.  Give em a break!  If you don't want to go - don't go! If you want to put them out of business - do it by putting on a better show.  If it makes you feel better by coming here and bad-mouthing them, please stop.  It serves no purpose, is not constructive, and only gives new Hams a bad impression.  It is time the trolls on this subject either put up or shut up.

Thanks D.A.R.A. you folks are a class act. I appreciate all you do for the ham radio community.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 23, 2013, 01:20:48 PM
I have never been to Dayton but would love to go.

Well there's credibility, and a reason to have such a definite opinion.  

Maybe you can have your science students research the effects of human exposure to raw sewage.  Hepatitis and dysentery can kill you.

AE5QB....the issue is Hara, not DARA. Read the thread and relax.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K5MF on June 23, 2013, 08:20:58 PM
I have never been to Dayton but would love to go.

AE5QB....the issue is Hara, not DARA. Read the thread and relax.


Actually I am quite relaxed, thank you.  And I disagree with you.  The issue is not Hara, the issue that everyone wants to make out of this is that D.A.R.A. should move the event or it should be held somewhere else in the country.  Go back and read the posts - the east coast, Florida, Vegas, anywhere there is a nicer venue. Well isn't that a simple and well thought out decision?  My understanding is that D.A.R.A. has looked at other venues and has found nothing feasible.  Let's get down to the brass tacks here.  If not Hara, where?  Be specific.  Come up with a great idea and then the rest of us can think of the dozens of reasons why your idea is not feasible or just dumb.  And that is exactly what is being done here. D.A.R.A. is being portrayed as an incompetent or dumb group of folks for not choosing another venue.  Again, put up or shut up.  What happens is people want to complete complain but they have no real suggestions.  If that makes you feel better then I suggest you look in the mirror because that is where the problem lies.  Everyone knows about the sewage problem, it has been discussed over and over and over and please provide the names of those who died from hepatitis or dysentery.  Can't come up with any, I didn't think you would.  But boy that sure makes great press doesn't it?  Sewer problems occur from time to time.  Have you never had your toilet back up?  Shame on you!  You should move to another home immediately.  Don't you know that people can die from hepatitis and dysentery.  My gosh folks.  Get a life.  I say it again - either put up and do something better or shut up.  If you want another suggestion, join D.A.R.A. and show them how to do it correctly.  I am confident they will appreciate your enlightened input.
I didn't think so.

By the way, I teach my students to be objective observers; something I am not seeing in these repetitive and ongoing threads.  Keep it in perspective, please and look for solutions.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 24, 2013, 07:54:45 AM
AE5QB...nobody is slamming DARA, and you're making this up.....all the way from Texas and never actually having been to the show.

How bizarre.

   

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9IQ on June 24, 2013, 04:51:28 PM
I have been to Dayton many times. The event itself is great. DARA is to be commended for what it is. The venue is terrible. The bathrooms stink worse than an outhouse. The railings on the emergency exits are literally falling off. Exposed rubber electrical cable is used for permanent primary circuits in the main arena. The "parking lot" (mud field) and flee market grounds are a lawsuit waiting to happen. If you have never been there, don't bother trying to defend it.

If you have ever been standing in line waiting for the opening bell to get in and have heard the announcement that they cannot open until the fire marshal has completed their safety inspection, you cannot help but wonder how long it will take for someone to rescue the fire marshal! It amazes me that the local jurisdiction has not condemned the facility.

I am also a German resident and have attended the Friedrichshafen event many times. It stands in stark contrast to the facilities at Dayton. The parking is all on excellent blacktop. The food is great and varied, the facilities are large and clean, and everything is indoors (other than the outdoor biergarten and the balloon launches!). They do not have the same number of attendees as Dayton but it is a much more enjoyable event for me simply from a hygienic and creature comfort perspective. I actually enjoy eating at Friedrichshafen and I don't feel the need for bleach after using the toilets!

For me it comes down to the facilities - not the sponsoring organization.

- Glenn DJ0IQ and W9IQ
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on June 24, 2013, 05:37:44 PM
Perfectly put, Glenn.

Best,
Brad, K9MHZ

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K5MF on June 24, 2013, 07:42:07 PM
Glen and others.  I am not defending the facility.  I have been to Dayton many times (worked for NCR for 25 years)  I know the facility.  On the other hand, do you think the folks at D.A.R.A. do not know what the facility is like?  Do you think they haven't looked for others?  Do you think they wouldn't go somewhere else if it were feasible to do so?  I do understand what you are saying but there doesn't appear to be any feasible alternatives.  So unless someone has a solution to the issues, what positive can possible be served by the ongoing and continuing bitching about the facility? 

I go back to my original post. I challenge the arm chair quarterbacks (probably the ones who are riding around on the scooters) to put their fat butts to work finding a solution.  I have heard it said that Columbus and Cincinnati should be considered.  Maybe so, but for some reason D.A.R.A. has determined that it is not feasible to do so or maybe it is just a case in which they don't want to move it out of Dayton because they feel a tie to the community.  Whatever!  If Cincinnati or Columbus are great, then I challenge the clubs in those areas to put together a proposal and start negotiating with the ham vendors.  Let's get some competition going and take the convention away from Dayton.  After all, that is the American way, you know - build a better mouse trap or in this case, present a better convention proposal, and the world will beat a path to your door.

Put up or shut up!   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9IQ on June 25, 2013, 08:18:18 AM
Tom,

My comments were fair, kind, and comparative.

The DARA folks run an event that grosses north of $500,000 annually. I would hope that they want to hear from their customers, like me, regarding their satisfaction with the event. I would also hope as a result that they are pressuring Rue Wampler and Venueworks to re-invest in their facility before DARA looses their event to the competition that you are advocating.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W3WN on June 26, 2013, 06:03:19 AM
I can't help but to wonder how much greater the Hamvention would be if it had the organization skills of DARA and a newer, safer, cleaner, bigger and better venue.  Is there a place in or near Dayton that could host the Hamvention?

Clint - W5CPT -
Well, the University of Dayton has some nice facilities.  

Whether or not they could handle Hamvention, let alone whether or not they would be willing to, is another story.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on June 27, 2013, 08:48:37 AM
I've and worked many events as a committee member and as a volunteer.  The bigger and more complex the event is, the more likely it is that the sponsoring organization has a professional event planner or organizer to do the detail work.  I bet that D.A.R.A. does.

As for the Hara, it's just a matter of time until it's gone, developed out of existence.  The only reason is hasn't been so far is that the owners probably are reluctant to pay taxes on their gains.

N9LCD   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WALTERB on July 08, 2013, 09:04:41 AM
I've been to Dayton twice now.
I assume its because a lot of hams and companies are in or use to be in Ohio?
Centrally located?


I am surprised there isn't some sort of "Winter-fest" in Orlando or someplace in Jan/Feb?
You know, drag the wife and kids to the beach/Disney while you hang at the fest.

I guess its up to the Florida hams to get something going. 

 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on July 08, 2013, 02:01:01 PM
I've been to Dayton twice now.
I assume its because a lot of hams and companies are in or use to be in Ohio?
Centrally located?


I am surprised there isn't some sort of "Winter-fest" in Orlando or someplace in Jan/Feb?
You know, drag the wife and kids to the beach/Disney while you hang at the fest.

I guess its up to the Florida hams to get something going. 




 I guess you haven't heard of the Ham-Cation which has been held for many years in the Orlando area each winter.  I've never been, but hear it is a good show but does not come close to the size of Dayton.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KQ4KK on July 22, 2013, 07:09:54 PM
HARA has got to be fixed/upgraded, or bulldozed!!

ORLANDO is nice, next in size to DAYTON. But not in the center of HAM universe.

CHARLOTTE is GRAND. Very nice facilities to choose from. Club infrastructure not strong enough. Not in the center of HAM universe.

DALLAS/PLANO is a nice location, but not big enough to support a National Ham fest.

HUNTSVILLE is my favorite. BEST facilities I've ever seen for a HAM fest or convention. Flea market area could be an issue. But lots all around the center could be used. Yea, no direct flights, nor direct interstate. But it is a great HAM fest now. Club seems to have their act together.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: HAMFESTS on July 23, 2013, 01:22:01 PM
I can add a few more good hamfests

Berryville, VA (August)........It's coming up soon. Very good, always lots of equipment for sale, always on my list to go

Sussex Co, NJ (July).......... I was just at this one, really good flea market, small main building, very good restrooms, always on my list to go

Butler, PA (June)........very good flea market, has two buildings, didn't get to go this year but always on my list to go

Howard County, MD(various dates and hamfests).......always a decent fest, a little smaller than some but still a nice flea market and some covered areas.....I try to get to these.

Manassas, VA(June I think).........haven't been there recently but was always good.

There are more and I could go on and on, and some I want to go to that look great (Raleigh.....and some others in NC) I may go to Dayton next year, who knows. (been there before about 4-5 times) Since I don't belong to a club I figure my admission donation helps the club(s) hosting the event. At one hamfest I even met a columnist from QST so I had the chance to tell him how much I enjoyed his column.

It's just one of a few parts of the hobby I enjoy doing. I really hope something good happens for Dayton in the near future.

73!

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2CMH on July 31, 2013, 11:24:46 AM
Quote
The DARA folks run an event that grosses north of $500,000 annually. I would hope that they want to hear from their customers, like me, regarding their satisfaction with the event. I would also hope as a result that they are pressuring Rue Wampler and Venueworks to re-invest in their facility

That is the question I have, with as much money at stake that is paid to Hara for the event, you would think that DARA would have some leverage to get some of the problem areas addressed, so why aren't they?

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AB8ZX on July 31, 2013, 12:04:04 PM
I  am a Dayton native and have been going to Hamvention since 84. Have also seen a number of concerts there over the years as well. Hockey also.

I love Hara. I find it really funny to read all the negative comments about the place and town.

It's a HAMFEST. Have you seen the people that come to hamfests?  :D

To have it at a pristine, state of the art facility would just feel weird.

Even if it were a 10 hour drive away, I'd still go to it.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on August 01, 2013, 08:12:00 PM
I come from the Lake Stevens Everett area. I like going to  Dayton
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2CMH on August 02, 2013, 04:41:43 AM
>To have it at a pristine, state of the art facility would just feel weird.

I think most people would settle for having bathrooms that do not look like a sewage treatment plant.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on August 03, 2013, 06:24:41 PM
Next year, the League will host the National Convention and 100th anniversary of the ARRL.  It's being held at the Connecticut Convention Center in Hartford.  I have no idea how it compares in size to the Hara, but it's a relatively new facility with 140,000 sq. ft. exhibition floor space, so it will offer an example of what Hamvention COULD be.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8NWX on August 03, 2013, 07:34:27 PM
I am surprised there isn't some sort of "Winter-fest" in Orlando or someplace in Jan/Feb?

That's not a bad idea, but the problem is that nobody bothers to put anything like that together. There's nothing stopping some hams in Vegas, or Atlanta, or Miami from putting together a huge hamfest. If the folks in Dayton can do it, then others can do it, too. But nobody bothers. Dayton's hamfest wouldn't even have to go away. They could have one there AND a bigger one somewhere else, but again nobody bothers.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on August 05, 2013, 04:17:54 AM
They have the hamvention in Orlando Floridia in Feb
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on August 07, 2013, 08:14:22 AM
In the late 90's I had a contact at Wright who could get me a corporate rate on lodging in Dayton.  The only admonishment was:  BOOK EARLY!

Yeah, sure.  Six weeks before the fest (around the end of March), the Committee still didn't know the shuttle bus routes.   

TRANSLATION:  They hadn't finished collecting "sponsorship money" from the hotels & motels.  Hi!  Hi!

N9LCD

 ???

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: NY7Q on August 14, 2013, 04:50:13 PM
T R A D I T I O N
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8QV on August 15, 2013, 05:18:26 PM
Why don't all the people who hate the Dayton venue start coming to the Orlando Hamcation every February and pretend it's Dayton? Soon, Orlando will be the new Dayton, and everyone will have a place to potty, stay, park, and keep the family entertained. As long as people continue to support that dump in Ohio, why should anything change? That said, I do feel bad that the great people who are organizing the Dayton gig can't find a better venue, but obviously they can't. Time to move.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K6CPO on August 20, 2013, 05:04:54 PM
I still wonder just how much interface DARA has with the Hara Arena between shows.  If you think about it, the inside exhibits are nothing more than a conglomeration of cubes. There's no reason to believe that DARA couldn't host the Hamvention in another regional location; Columbus,  or Cincinnati.perhaps. Other organizations hold their conventions around the country, so why couldn't DARA?  I've heard that renting the renting the entire Hara complex isn't cheap, so what keeps Hamvention there? No doubt a big reason is familiarity.   Everybody knows the drill, year after year.  Whether you're hopping on the shuttle, queing up for a scooter rental, or negotiating the pothole, crater ridden back driveway to pull into the tailgate area, we all know the drill.  DARA knows it too. It's all familiar.... all too familiar, and familiarity certainly does breed complacency.  But why move it? Every May, we come, 24,500 strong this this year, and we spend.  Can you imagine the amount of currency being exchanged in that decrepit pit for those three days?  I had one of those moments this year as I was waiting to use the "lavatory". There I was standing there, with a three thousand dollar wad in my pocket, waiting to take a wiz in a crappy (literally) port-o-john.  Don't I deserve better? Don't we all deserve better?  It's an embarrassment to see the G's, the PY's, the JA's, the DL's, and the rest of DX attendees walking the fleamarket, stumbling into the deep potholes that litter the shabby parking lot.  It makes a person, proud of his country want to apologize to our visitors, "It's not like this everywhere, really it is isn't!" But why bother to move it to a new location.  They put the show on every year and we come,  leaving behind million's of dollars in the Dayton economy.  It's not going to change until the Hara is demolished, or we stop coming..


Quote
In this year's Hamvention program book, DARA shows pictures of the construction of an addition to their "clubhouse", and large building with a tower alongside of it.  All the clubs I've belonged to rent meeting space in a hotel suite, or beg the local township for a meeting room.  DARA has a "clubhouse".  Look at the pictures, and you can understand why they have a death grip on "Hamvention".

As long as Hamvention continues to be held at the Hara Arena, and as long as hams continue to attend in the numbers they do, there is no incentive for the owners to upgrade the place.  Everyone complains about the condition of the arena, yet they continue to attend year after year after year.  If you want the Hara Area improved, then start talking with your pocketbooks.  If attendance started to fall off and DARA found out the reason was the condition of the arena, then they'd take steps to get the venue improved.

Maybe it's time for DARA to share some of the largesse they appear to be getting from Hamvention (I'd really be interested in how much profit they make from the event) and maybe donate the money to (at least) resurface the parking lot. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on August 23, 2013, 08:50:40 PM
... It's a HAMFEST. Have you seen the people that come to hamfests?  :D

To have it at a pristine, state of the art facility would just feel weird.


This is my favorite.... implies hams would be out of place in a nice facility and do not deserve anything better than Hara / Dayton!  You guys crack me up sometimes  ;D

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on November 11, 2013, 06:00:10 PM
This is my favorite.... implies hams would be out of place in a nice facility and do not deserve anything better than Hara / Dayton!  You guys crack me up sometimes  ;D
73


Oh, I think he was making a funny with just a bit of truth embedded. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on November 12, 2013, 04:20:16 AM
This is my favorite.... implies hams would be out of place in a nice facility and do not deserve anything better than Hara / Dayton!  You guys crack me up sometimes  ;D
73


Oh, I think he was making a funny with just a bit of truth embedded. 


Yep -- that makes the best humor….  guess that's why I watch a lot of Seinfeld reruns!   73  ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W2RWJ on November 12, 2013, 03:46:54 PM
The DARA folks run an event that grosses north of $500,000 annually. I would hope that they want to hear from their customers, like me, regarding their satisfaction with the event.

Glen,
Not sure if the link will work correctly, however you can find the 990 returns for DARA here: http://www.guidestar.org/organizations/31-0686486/dayton-amateur-radio-association.aspx 

It should show the exact amount that was made by DARA by the hamvention.

Martin Flynn
W2RWJ

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on November 12, 2013, 05:28:41 PM
The DARA folks run an event that grosses north of $500,000 annually. I would hope that they want to hear from their customers, like me, regarding their satisfaction with the event.

Glen,
Not sure if the link will work correctly, however you can find the 990 returns for DARA here: http://www.guidestar.org/organizations/31-0686486/dayton-amateur-radio-association.aspx 

It should show the exact amount that was made by DARA by the hamvention.

Martin Flynn
W2RWJ


DARA EIN 31-0686486
FY2010 Abbreviated Financials from Form 990:

Revenue $333,211
Expenses $151,103

Profit = Revenue – Expenses.  And, it’s a non-profit 501.c.3?  Hmmmmm.  Wonder where the extra money went?


Maybe they amended their return.......
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC9YTJ on November 12, 2013, 08:32:57 PM
NFPs don't have to have zero income over expenses. If you think the average 501(c)(3) normally shows zero "profit", you need to do some more research.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on November 13, 2013, 03:29:24 AM
DARA EIN 31-0686486
FY2010 Abbreviated Financials from Form 990:

Revenue $333,211
Expenses $151,103

[/quote]

If that is all this event nets DARA, my hat is off to them… (no one is getting rich!)  Those folks seem to be doing the best with the facility they have to work from…. Truly a labor of service….  THANK YOU DARA!   

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KV7W on November 17, 2013, 08:32:25 PM
If you look at the public record Form 990 it'll show a breakdown of all expenses. The non-profit has to make this available to the public; however there are sites that you can look up the form for free - might not be the most up to date, but the price is right.

http://foundationcenter.org/findfunders/990finder/
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on November 18, 2013, 02:53:17 PM
I used to live in the Dayton area and have been going to the Hamvention since 1975.  Yes, Hara Arena is not the finest convention center I've ever seen, but in the Dayton area, there is NOTHING ELSE THAT WILL WORK for an event which is the size of HAMVENTION! 

Many events are held at Hara year round.  If there was another facility, I am sure it would be used.

A few weeks ago, I drove 150 miles from my present QTH (Lexington, KY) to a model train show at Hara Arena.  Like HAMVENTION, it was a GREAT SHOW and EVERYONE there was having a great time. I did not hear anyone complaining about the facility like so many of the hams do about Hamvention each year.  True, the train show was no where near the size of HAMVENTION, but it still filled two of the larger halls of the facility. 

I think many of us hams will have to honestly admit that we are more concerned with the NEGATIVES about HAMVENTION and the Hara Arena facility.  Instead, why not consider all the MANY POSITIVES that we experience there, each year, attending the greatest (and largest) ham radio event in the world.

Tom, KR4BD
Lexington, KY
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on November 19, 2013, 07:14:52 AM
As a former treasurer for two non-profit organizations, the most important question should be:

     WHAT IS DARA DOING WITH THE $182,000 EARNED FROM THE HAMVENTION?

N9LCD

 ???
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on November 19, 2013, 07:30:27 PM
As a former treasurer for two non-profit organizations, the most important question should be:

     WHAT IS DARA DOING WITH THE $182,000 EARNED FROM THE HAMVENTION?

N9LCD

 ???
Breakfast for the club at Bob Evans or ice cream socials at Graeters?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on November 21, 2013, 07:27:05 AM
W6EM, from my experience(s), I have to agree with you

When I was treasurer of one non-profit, we were barely collecting $3,000 in dues a year and weren't paying on our restoration pledge.  But we could blow $300 on the quarterly board meeting over lunch at a private club!

N9LCD

 ::)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG4NEL on November 21, 2013, 08:43:57 PM
Have absolutely no desire to go.

Local hamfests get my money...
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on November 22, 2013, 07:18:43 PM
I like going to Dayton. I do not want them to move.  I have my routine all figure out.  I know what airlines I can fly I also know what hotels I can stay in what time I have to leave,and what Bob Evens restruant to eat at, so I can get to the hamvention on time I also know were the movie theaters are. 

I'm now driving to Dayton done it twice and I know which roads to be on,and what routes to take

Dayton needs to stay if they move it out,I would have to change my routine
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AA4HA on December 03, 2013, 05:29:24 PM
I too am a supporter of the Huntsville hamfest. If you wander around the building you realize that they are using only about 1/4 of the space of the entire facility, you could get lost in there. The main 'fest floor could be opened up, the wall to the left is closed off from an equally big space. There are plenty of breakout rooms for classes, the bathrooms are very clean and plentiful and the air conditioning is more than sufficient to handle the occupancy.

Parking is in the multi-story garage across the street and costs around $4-5/day, the city is clean and safe. You are approximately 1 mile away from interstate 765 that is just to the north.

What Huntsville does not have; 1) a large open area parking lot for folks selling stuff out of the trunks of their cars. 1) camping facilities on-site. 3) multiple choices on where to get food.

If you go there you need to get a tour of Marshall Space Center (NASA). If you bring along family they could spend the entire day there while you shop for radio stuff at the fest or attend some of the break-out sessions.

Huntsville is a high-tech city with lots of very intelligent people. There are lots of aerospace industries in the area and many of the hams in the area are very capable engineering and sciences professionals. I spend a few days a month in Huntsville as one of my largest clients has offices just on the other side of that parking garage (they also own those white pickup trucks on the ground floor of the parking garage). (I live 75 miles away)

If you are in the area then drag your RV and bass boat along and go spend a few days up on Lake Guntersville. Some of the finest fishing in the country. You are also an hour and a half away from Nashville and places like Opryland and as I mentioned there is NASA.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2CMH on December 03, 2013, 06:26:55 PM
I will second that, Huntsville is very clean, cool, and well organized.   Plenty of rooms for seminars as well as an all indoor flea market and commercial area.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on December 04, 2013, 07:02:45 AM
IMO, the problem with Dayton and many fests is the lack of adaptation, the unwillingness to change to meet the needs of tomorrow's market.

What will become of Dayton when all the OM who spent their lives there are SK's?

Will the once in a lifetime attendees carry it?

N9LCD
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K6CPO on January 05, 2014, 07:48:43 PM
As a former treasurer for two non-profit organizations, the most important question should be:

     WHAT IS DARA DOING WITH THE $182,000 EARNED FROM THE HAMVENTION?

N9LCD

 ???

Well, they have this nifty looking communication truck...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rWnGpuTnvaY/UZpRSuTKb-I/AAAAAAAAATg/p2NK4u94XW0/s1600/IMG_20130518_161158.jpg

I'll bet what they paid for it would have paid for resurfacing the parking lot at Hara.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on January 07, 2014, 03:45:39 AM
Well, they have this nifty looking communication truck...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rWnGpuTnvaY/UZpRSuTKb-I/AAAAAAAAATg/p2NK4u94XW0/s1600/IMG_20130518_161158.jpg

I'll bet what they paid for it would have paid for resurfacing the parking lot at Hara.

Looks like there's a nice, clean restroom in there….. 

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: VK3PDG on January 11, 2014, 04:15:07 AM
I have never been to Dayton, but have read all about it. I'm not even sure if I get to travel one day to the US of A that it will be on my itinerary. But Dayton is famous the world over in amateur radio circles because of the people who plan, run and attend it. Our new, small-scale event at Rosebud in South Eastern Australia is following the same formula and it is paying off.
Attend to the people, make them welcome, help them out and show them a good time, provide good facilities (well, maybe DARA need to put in some overtime on that one, if hearsay is correct), and smile a lot. We do it, it works! People attend, leave with a good impression and next year bring more folk back with them.

No fancy gimmicks, no major expense items, a cheap one-level entry fee and tasty tucker. (Food!)

Plus...plan, plan, plan, listen to feedback and give them what they want.

It's hard work, but hey, it's a labour of love and we all have a great time.

Long live Dayton!     VK3PDG Mark
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K1CJS on January 19, 2014, 05:16:37 AM
These days, its just because of one word--Dayton.  Force of habit plays a big part too.  It's no longer that Dayton has a good venue--that's been shown--but there is no other place if the event is to stay in Dayton.  'Good' food?  Maybe, but I wouldn't want what most buy there.  Most of what it's good for is building up cholesterol!

Mostly its just that it's always been the so called 'premier' event here in the states, its where most of the dealers plan on going, and its where most get together for their annual 'meet and greet.'  That's all. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on January 24, 2014, 09:34:23 AM
After many years of attending Dayton, I'm staying home this year.  I've had enough of decrepit structures, bomb crater parking lot, tiny tailgate spaces, and overpriced hotel rooms.  Instead I'm going to attend the ARRL National Centennial Convention in Hartford, CT.  I'm pinning big hopes on the League that they'll put on a great event.  The Connecticut Convention Center is also a new building and is close to League HQ.

https://www.regonline.com/builder/site/Default.aspx?EventID=1248082

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KH6DC on January 25, 2014, 05:59:29 PM
The trip to Dayton is cost prohibitive for travel from/to Honolulu, Hawaii.  Last I checked it was over $1200 for airfare alone.  My work took me to many places in the US including Huntsville, Alabama but never near Dayton, Ohio.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on February 04, 2014, 04:47:31 PM
After many years of attending Dayton, I'm staying home this year.  I've had enough of decrepit structures, bomb crater parking lot, tiny tailgate spaces, and overpriced hotel rooms.  Instead I'm going to attend the ARRL National Centennial Convention in Hartford, CT.  I'm pinning big hopes on the League that they'll put on a great event.  The Connecticut Convention Center is also a new building and is close to League HQ.


Ah man, you'll be missing out on so much.   Sewage river rafting into the flea market, the "Name That Odor" quiz sponsored by Right Guard and Dial soap, the Jenny Craig appetizers following the scooter 5K race, the helmet tower buildoff, the NSA satellite photos of the finest in whackermobiles in the Salem Mall parking lot.

Only Dayton provides this and so much more....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2YO on February 04, 2014, 05:05:57 PM
I've only been a ham for 20 years, so I'll have to depend on the old guys for this one.

Has there ever been a time that people didn't complain about Dayton? Since I got my ticket in 1993 or so, this same conversation has been going on every year.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on February 05, 2014, 03:04:52 PM
I think one year the women were complaining that there was not enough out houses or bathrooms for the women
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on February 06, 2014, 04:41:44 AM

Ah man, you'll be missing out on so much.   Sewage river rafting into the flea market.....

Yes, I witnessed the unfortunate Hara employee standing on the levitated manhole cover he was trying to hold down as a fan spray of sewage gushed forth all around him.  There was no escape.

I will miss the smell of the combination of starter fluid and smoldering charcoal at 7:30 in the morning as the lunch wagon start their grills.  That's up my nose forever.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on February 06, 2014, 04:44:13 AM

Ah man, you'll be missing out on so much.   Sewage river rafting into the flea market.....

Yes, I witnessed the unfortunate Hara employee standing on the levitated manhole cover he was trying to hold down as a fan spray of sewage gushed forth all around him.  There was no escape.

I will miss the smell of the combination of starter fluid and smoldering charcoal at 7:30 in the morning as the lunch wagon start their grills.  That's up my nose forever.

Has there ever been a time that people didn't complain about Dayton?.....

Have you ever attended the Dayton Hamvention?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on February 07, 2014, 07:12:01 PM
For an old timer, who's never been to it, this year will be my first time.  Hotel not a problem as my daughter lives there now.

And, can't wait for the aromas of the Hara place.  Besides, it couldn't be as bad as a turkey farm west of Fresno in the summer..... or a tallow plant near Manteca where they cook carcasses.  (there's a reason Manteca has the name it has.  In Spanish it means lard).
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6BP on February 07, 2014, 09:21:30 PM
Besides, it couldn't be as bad as a turkey farm west of Fresno in the summer..... or a tallow plant near Manteca where they cook carcasses.

I don't go to those places for a good time, either.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on February 08, 2014, 10:21:39 AM
Been going to Dayton since 1975.  I will keep going until the arthritis stops me!!!  Yes, Hara Arena is a mess, but I have so many great memories, like buying my first synthesized 2-meter rig in 1976 or 77...a Kenwood TR-7400 which still works today!  I have seen the hobby advance so much in the nearly 40 years I've been licensed and Dayton has always been the place to see all this "new stuff".

Still, It would be nice if they could just resurface the flea market/parking lot area.....

Tom, KR4BD
(ex: WB8VMI_1975-1993)
Lexington, KY
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8FA on February 08, 2014, 06:50:27 PM
I've been going to Dayton since 1965, even before I got my license at age 15 in 1967. I lived 7 miles away and peddled my bike. I still less than 10 miles.

My fondest memories are up to about 1969.  I did a lot of building then and the flea market had so much old-time equipment and discrete building components. But about 1970 it changed and I remember talking to some old-timers complaining about the changing character of the flea market and one of them said quote "everyone has gone FM crazy" unquote.

I didn't tell them I just converted a dilapidated police Motorola (tube) FM radio to work on 6 meter FM. So I talked about CW. And they told me what it was like working spark in 1915.

For me, the best part of the "Dayton experience" is the memories and interesting people you meet, not the same-same vendors, changing flea market or run-down facilities.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on February 09, 2014, 06:42:05 PM

Yes, I witnessed the unfortunate Hara employee standing on the levitated manhole cover he was trying to hold down as a fan spray of sewage gushed forth all around him.  There was no escape.



Ohhhhhhh man!!!  That poor guy.  Someone needs to find who that was and erect a statue of him at the entrance....."The guy who gave his all for ham radio."  I wonder if he went home that night and examined the confluence of everything that happened in his life leading up to being on top of that manhole cover that day.  There's a special place in heaven for him.



 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WI8P on February 10, 2014, 03:27:45 PM

Yes, I witnessed the unfortunate Hara employee standing on the levitated manhole cover he was trying to hold down as a fan spray of sewage gushed forth all around him.  There was no escape.



Ohhhhhhh man!!!  That poor guy.  Someone needs to find who that was and erect a statue of him at the entrance....."The guy who gave his all for ham radio."  I wonder if he went home that night and examined the confluence of everything that happened in his life leading up to being on top of that manhole cover that day.  There's a special place in heaven for him.



How do you know he wasn't a politician in a former life getting his just reward?   ???   ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KE5JDJ on February 20, 2014, 02:58:35 PM
I think if there is going to be a change in Dayton being "ground zero" it will come from someone doing it better somewhere else.

It has to have security, space and accommodations as well as entertainment if the XYL's who don't HAM are to be happy.

I'm thinking the Springfield/Branson, Missouri, area...but I don't think the air travel to that area is economical....I'm just sayin'.....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB4M on February 23, 2014, 07:26:00 PM
I agree with K9MHZ about Dayton's location.  Actually, the location is one of the best things going for it, not a long trip from anywhere in the US.  Putting this Hamfest in Florida or Las Vegas would probably kill it off.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on February 25, 2014, 09:02:23 AM
Flights only go to Ohio? Roads only go to Ohio? Las Vegas farther away? Ask the west coast about that. This is not the horse and buggy days anymore. When I drove to Dayton last, I could have driven a little more and been in Atlanta. Just driving a different direction. And there are a lot of great places within the same driving distance. Think of someone driving from Los Angeles. How many great places do they drive by? In todays world location is not as critical as the content and presentation are.

As long as the ARRL excepts this decrepit facility to hand out their national awards and all the other things they do there, it will be there. If these ARRL activities were moved to a better facility anywhere, the equipment companies would follow in short order. Dayton would become a local hamfest and probably move to a much smaller facility.

But I am biased. I lived through the sewage flood in the flea market, and have not returned since. Nor will I.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8JI on February 25, 2014, 02:36:47 PM
Dayton was successful because of the huge number of Hams within driving distance, and because it was at tax refund time.

Anyone in the amateur business knows there is a huge spike in sales around that time, as people get refunds.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on February 25, 2014, 10:48:45 PM
Flights only go to Ohio? Roads only go to Ohio? Las Vegas farther away? Ask the west coast about that. This is not the horse and buggy days anymore. When I drove to Dayton last, I could have driven a little more and been in Atlanta. Just driving a different direction. And there are a lot of great places within the same driving distance. Think of someone driving from Los Angeles. How many great places do they drive by? In todays world location is not as critical as the content and presentation are.

Don't forget the one fool who comes from the Washington State area and who  has had to dodge tornados twice
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on February 26, 2014, 06:58:43 PM
Flights only go to Ohio? Roads only go to Ohio? Las Vegas farther away? Ask the west coast about that. This is not the horse and buggy days anymore. When I drove to Dayton last, I could have driven a little more and been in Atlanta. Just driving a different direction. And there are a lot of great places within the same driving distance. Think of someone driving from Los Angeles. How many great places do they drive by? In todays world location is not as critical as the content and presentation are.

As long as the ARRL excepts this decrepit facility to hand out their national awards and all the other things they do there, it will be there. If these ARRL activities were moved to a better facility anywhere, the equipment companies would follow in short order. Dayton would become a local hamfest and probably move to a much smaller facility.

But I am biased. I lived through the sewage flood in the flea market, and have not returned since. Nor will I.


No one's arguing that it's got to be in that exact geographic spot on planet earth, and everywhere else just won't do.  It's been said over and over that it's evolved from a very valid set of initial conditions years ago, and the biggest being that it's centrally-located.  Yes, Atlanta would do, and so would Indianapolis, Chicago, Columbus, you name it.  But geography DOES matter, and planners of conventions of all types know that.....you first study the demographic and physical distribution of your target audience and plan accordingly.  Your west coast assertions in this case is completely bogus. This is boilerplate stuff.  Hams as a group are notoriously "thrifty",  and mileages do matter.  To run with your thinking, let's all insist on the Maui Hamvention.....sure, we'll see everyone there, no problem.

Hey, everyone wants out of Hara.  Your League bash is really uncalled-for. They all will privately tell you that they want another venue just like everyone else.....it's not their gig.  Because they hand out some awards at the world's largest ham gathering, dump as it is, makes Hara ensconced as the location forever?  Please.     

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on February 26, 2014, 08:20:41 PM
Yea they will all privately tell me, but yet do nothing about it. And it was not an ARRL bashing, it is a plain and simple observation. If the ARRL would pull out and go somewhere else, Dayton would cease to be the place to go rapidly. I would say it is more of a compliment to the ARRL for their program they have there; but certainly not a bashing. My question would be if privately the ARRL wants to be somewhere else, why don't they say it publically and do something about it? I don't pay my dues just to get QST mag. But I do have the right as a member to question them and their decisions. And as you say its not their gig, then they can leave it any time they want. Again my question is why they stay?

By the way, I like how you think all hams in the west, who may like it more centrally located for them, are bogus. Glad I am not a W6 or I would be bogus too. And if it were really about being centrally located in the lower 48, then it would be in Lebanon Kansas, and not in Dayton. So your centrally located argument is mute. But then I guess it is more centrally located to hams East of the Mississippi river. And really, not even all of that. Maybe the hams in Louisiana and Maine and Florida are bogus too? Who else is bogus? Should we consider the hams from other countries bogus too? It certainly is not centrally located for them. If I were not leaving for DU1 tomorrow, I would probably find many more bogus hams. Oh wait, while I am in DU1 I am bogus anyway!

I hope you understand how silly it is to say that other hams who have interest in the Hamvention are a bogus argument. I feel they are not.

If it is the Hamvention you want to attend, then where ever it is you would still go. Otherwise it is not really about attending the Hamvention. Its more like a herd mentality that goes to the one and only watering hole they think should be the one they use, while going past others that are as good or better.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on February 27, 2014, 07:58:38 AM
By the way, I like how you think all hams in the west, who may like it more centrally located for them, are bogus. Glad I am not a W6 or I would be bogus too.

You're completely misquoting what I wrote, and you know it.  Yes, you're not a W6, so you wouldn't have any idea of the yearly west coast convention, which is always a great event, at least back when I was an N6 and lived there.  They don't have the numbers compared to the east half of the U.S., not even close.  

Wow, your $40 and magazine subscription qualifies you to have an opinion on a big strategic move that the League should make, eh?   Yep, all their fault, this situation.  Well, I suppose you're going to the 100-year convention, LEAGUE-SPONSORED, in July?  Oh wait, that may be a little far for a troll from Wisconsin.  I'll look for your call, but I'm not holding my breath.




 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N0FPE on March 09, 2014, 09:24:57 AM
I think they should move Dayton to Arizona and make it in January!!!! Half the northern population is here anyway!!    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N6DGY on March 09, 2014, 03:50:29 PM
I like going to Dayton. I do not want them to move.  I have my routine all figure out.  I know what airlines I can fly I also know what hotels I can stay in what time I have to leave,and what Bob Evens restruant to eat at, so I can get to the hamvention on time I also know were the movie theaters are. 

I'm now driving to Dayton done it twice and I know which roads to be on,and what routes to take

Dayton needs to stay if they move it out,I would have to change my routine


Try arranging a flight from Salt Lake City like I do each year.  Ohio, and Dayton in particular is not exactly a major hub west of the Rockies, so some of us spend a fair sum to attend.  I look at a city like Salt Lake with only about 200,000 people that hosts many outdoor conventions each year.  We have clean, modern convention centers here with nearly a million contiguous square feet of space.  Me thinks a facility like that could hold the entirety of the Hamvention, flea market included.   I can't believe there wouldn't be a comparable facility in the Cincinnati area.   I've been attending Hamvention for the past 10 years, and bought my 2014 tickets as soon as they went on sale in early December.   I attend for the camaraderie of good friends.  I generally avoid the inside of the Hara.  The great poopopolypse of a few years ago nearly nailed the coffin shut in my desire to attend again.  It seems an embarrassment to those of us that attend that the Hamvention would continue to be held in such a facility.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N6DGY on March 09, 2014, 03:57:26 PM
No one's arguing that it's got to be in that exact geographic spot on planet earth, and everywhere else just won't do.  It's been said over and over that it's evolved from a very valid set of initial conditions years ago, and the biggest being that it's centrally-located.  Yes, Atlanta would do, and so would Indianapolis, Chicago, Columbus, you name it.  But geography DOES matter, and planners of conventions of all types know that.....you first study the demographic and physical distribution of your target audience and plan accordingly.  Your west coast assertions in this case is completely bogus. This is boilerplate stuff.  Hams as a group are notoriously "thrifty",  and mileages do matter.  To run with your thinking, let's all insist on the Maui Hamvention.....sure, we'll see everyone there, no problem.

Hey, everyone wants out of Hara.  Your League bash is really uncalled-for. They all will privately tell you that they want another venue just like everyone else.....it's not their gig.  Because they hand out some awards at the world's largest ham gathering, dump as it is, makes Hara ensconced as the location forever?  Please.     



If Dayton were such a hot spot for US-centrally located conventions, there would be far better facilities than the Hara Arena.  Vegas is likely the biggest convention city in the country.  Even Salt Lake City where I live is only a medium-sized city, but we have a couple pretty classy convention centers, one with nearly a million square feet of exhibition space.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on March 09, 2014, 05:46:01 PM
How about the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont, Illinois?

Relatively new.  In great shape.  Equipped to handle large-scale events.

Close to toll roads and the interstates; O'Hare Airport; and CTA rail service to and from Chicago.

Close to numerous hotels and motels.  And the Forest Preserve District for hams wanting to camp out.

N9LCD

 ;D

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 15, 2014, 07:01:02 PM
By the way, I like how you think all hams in the west, who may like it more centrally located for them, are bogus. Glad I am not a W6 or I would be bogus too.

You're completely misquoting what I wrote, and you know it.  Yes, you're not a W6, so you wouldn't have any idea of the yearly west coast convention, which is always a great event, at least back when I was an N6 and lived there.  They don't have the numbers compared to the east half of the U.S., not even close.  

Wow, your $40 and magazine subscription qualifies you to have an opinion on a big strategic move that the League should make, eh?   Yep, all their fault, this situation.  Well, I suppose you're going to the 100-year convention, LEAGUE-SPONSORED, in July?  Oh wait, that may be a little far for a troll from Wisconsin.  I'll look for your call, but I'm not holding my breath.
 


Misquote? You used the word bogus first. So I requoted that the argument that west coast hams desire tohave it closer is bogus. I dont believe that as I used to live in AZ for some time.

By all means hold your breath. It might do you some good. At least it would be fun to watch.

73 from DU1
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC9QQM on March 19, 2014, 06:36:11 AM
I have only read a few pages of this thread but wanted to put in my 2 cents.

I was a tech back from '78-'98 and always wanted to go just from all I heard, the size of the flea market, all the vendors and just the shear number of hams in one place. I let my license drop and got relicensed in '09 and got my General and now my Extra.

Last year I went. I live about 4.5 hours away (central Illinois) and ended up finding a great little state park to tent camp at and met a couple of great hams. As far as the hamfest, I was blown away, it was huge, as far as any fest I have been in and I use a pedometer and walked about 12 miles that first day! Other than it raining, which is always a pain when you camp, it was a great time.

Looking forward to this year, there are some bike trails that run through that area so I'll be doing them also. See you all there. It really is an experience that all hams should do at least once.

Jeff
KC9QQM
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on March 21, 2014, 06:19:52 AM
I dont believe that as I used to live in AZ for some time.

Oh yeah, there's credibility. 

Oh well, believe what you want up there in BFE hicktown Winsonsin.  You've proven that ignorance and arrogance are a deadly combo.     
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 23, 2014, 09:26:43 PM
I don't believe that as I used to live in AZ for some time.

Oh yeah, there's credibility. 

Oh well, believe what you want up there in BFE hicktown Winsonsin.  You've proven that ignorance and arrogance are a deadly combo.     

Nah, your just mad because you made an incorrect assumption and I called you on it. That's simply your problem, not a question of validity of what I said. Your spelling needs work which also shows who the ignorant one is. I mean even the text editor here has a spell checker. You don't know how to use it? ???

BTW the $40 (actually $39, I checked it just to make sure) is my annual dues to be a member of the ARRL. Not just a magazine subscription. So yes it does give me and every other member a voice in the decision making process at the ARRL. Did you really believe that the membership cost was just a magazine? Now who is bashing the ARRL with spreading incorrect information? ???

And I do have an advantage to my current location, you don't live next door to me. That keeps the local QRM lower. ;)

BTW, are you still holding your breath? :D Maybe you should breath now so you can be more error free and not make rash assumptions of things you have no knowledge. :-[ So Brad, if you want to continue, at least try to limit your assumptions and errors. Would probably make for much better reading for others. :)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K1CJS on March 25, 2014, 07:11:23 AM
...BTW the $40 (actually $39, I checked it just to make sure) is my annual dues to be a member of the ARRL. Not just a magazine subscription. So yes it does give me and every other member a voice in the decision making process at the ARRL....

If you believe that, there is some oceanfront property in Arizona that you may be interested in.....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 25, 2014, 03:39:54 PM
...BTW the $40 (actually $39, I checked it just to make sure) is my annual dues to be a member of the ARRL. Not just a magazine subscription. So yes it does give me and every other member a voice in the decision making process at the ARRL....

If you believe that, there is some oceanfront property in Arizona that you may be interested in.....

Well if you don't participate, then you get what others decide for you. I choose to participate.

I lived in Arizona for a while. If you know of ocean front property there, then your either a crook or crazy. Which is it?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on March 25, 2014, 04:28:01 PM

Nah, your just mad because you made an incorrect assumption and I called you on it.... Your spelling needs work which also shows who the ignorant one is. I mean even the text editor here has a spell checker. You don't know how to use it? ???

BTW the $40 (actually $39, I checked it just to make sure) is my annual dues to be a member of the ARRL. Not just a magazine subscription. So yes it does give me and every other member a voice in the decision making process at the ARRL. Did you really believe that the membership cost was just a magazine? Now who is bashing the ARRL with spreading incorrect information? ???


Well, let's see.....which word of mine needs correcting?  In the mean time..."Nah, your just mad....." I think you wrote.  See a problem there, Einstein?  You won't learn about contractions watching Ricky Bobby and NASCAR highlights.

Man, you really are a piece of work.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 26, 2014, 03:25:54 AM

Nah, your just mad because you made an incorrect assumption and I called you on it.... Your spelling needs work which also shows who the ignorant one is. I mean even the text editor here has a spell checker. You don't know how to use it? ???

BTW the $40 (actually $39, I checked it just to make sure) is my annual dues to be a member of the ARRL. Not just a magazine subscription. So yes it does give me and every other member a voice in the decision making process at the ARRL. Did you really believe that the membership cost was just a magazine? Now who is bashing the ARRL with spreading incorrect information? ???


Well, let's see.....which word of mine needs correcting?  In the mean time..."Nah, your just mad....." I think you wrote.  See a problem there, Einstein?  You won't learn about contractions watching Ricky Bobby and NASCAR highlights.

Man, you really are a piece of work.



Maybe, but isn't everyone a piece of work in their own way? Seems you still are mad cause I called you on your incorrect assumptions about me which is why you feel the need to attack. Also you are mad because you know I am right about the ARRL. Funny how QST talks about "member" stuff all the time.

Also as to assumptions, again you are incorrect about me. Ricky Bobby was the dumbest character ever created and the only thing I learned from that was turning the channel. I don't have time for NASCAR highlights, but do occasionally watch a race here and there to see how the local boy...Matt Kenseth...is doing.

What other erroneous assumptions you want to make about me? Maybe you are trying to write my bio without any facts? Others have tried and failed as well. Seems to be the trend here. Get called on the facts, and retaliation is erroneous assumptions about me. Oh well, such is life.

If you could not see your spelling error, that is not my problem. However it speaks volumes as to your ignorance. (Hint: Winsonsin, if you even bothered to look.)

So if your going to call me Einstein, then you must be Gilligan! :)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on March 26, 2014, 04:55:20 AM
Hey, can you guys please take this friendly banter to another thread or even better, messaging?  This WAS a constructive thread on the Dayton Hamvention, and you two are working really hard to get it lock down.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on March 29, 2014, 08:20:57 PM
Hey, can you guys please take this friendly banter to another thread..........

LOL! Nah it's run its course.  If I see FIB at Dayton, the beer's on me!

Cheers.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 29, 2014, 10:58:58 PM
Hey, can you guys please take this friendly banter to another thread..........

LOL! Nah it's run its course.  If I see FIB at Dayton, the beer's on me!

Cheers.



No free beer then. As I stated earlier I will not go back to Dayton. If the Hamvention were held some where else, I would consider attending again. But until then, guess my internet sales will have to suffice. Besides, Northern IL and Southern WI have plenty of great hamfests. Don't need to wade through sewage, don't need the garbage dump setting, and I really don't care to listen to the people there whining about the location even though they are at Dayton.

Plain and simple...if you go there, don't whine about it...if you whine about it, don't go.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on March 30, 2014, 06:13:19 PM
Don't need to wade through sewage, don't need the garbage dump setting, 

I think that's the reason for the beer.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 31, 2014, 02:01:07 AM
Don't need to wade through sewage, don't need the garbage dump setting, 

I think that's the reason for the beer.


If that is true, then it is another reason not to go. The consumption of alcohol to tolerate the conditions is unacceptable for me personally. But some people will use any excuse to drink.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on March 31, 2014, 10:44:25 PM
Can't wait to attend one.  This year, if all goes well.  I'm used to improptu flea markets.  Had plenty in CA with porta potties and dirt, mud, and parking lot issues.

As for the manufacturers, I can find their ads in QST or via the vendor sites on the Internet.  So, I don't care about what's in the ballroom.  Market-de-Fleas for me.

Sounds as though the critics never attended county or state fairs and walked through the midways.  Or, stepped on horse pucky in the livestock exhibits.  What the heck....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KD8TFG on April 01, 2014, 07:05:52 PM
Can't wait to attend one.  This year, if all goes well.  I'm used to improptu flea markets.  Had plenty in CA with porta potties and dirt, mud, and parking lot issues.

As for the manufacturers, I can find their ads in QST or via the vendor sites on the Internet.  So, I don't care about what's in the ballroom.  Market-de-Fleas for me.

Sounds as though the critics never attended county or state fairs and walked through the midways.  Or, stepped on horse pucky in the livestock exhibits.  What the heck....

I could not have said it better myself! 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on April 01, 2014, 07:17:14 PM
Well if you don't mind steppin in manure, then the facilities at Hara should be just fine. There are barnyards full of dairy cows here in WI that are in better shape then Hara's rest rooms.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on April 02, 2014, 07:25:11 AM
Well if you don't mind steppin in manure, then the facilities at Hara should be just fine. There are barnyards full of dairy cows here in WI that are in better shape then Hara's rest rooms.

I agree the restrooms in the main arena area can SOMETIMES be a bit nasty.  However, if you look hard enough, there are many other facilities which are MUCH Nicer and LESS Crowded in other areas of the Hara Arena complex.  And..... I am not talking about the porta-potties in the flea market area.  Also, The sewage issue in the flea market area, that everyone keeps bringing up, happened at least two or three years ago and could not have been predicted.  Unexpected events like that happen EVERYDAY, somewhere or another.

I've been attending HAMvention since 1975 and plan to be there again this year. 

Bottom Line:  Warts and All, there is STILL NO BETTER Ham Radio Event ANYWHERE! 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on April 02, 2014, 11:11:20 AM
Been to the Illinois State Fair in Springfield about a half dozen times.  Never had a problem with equine or bovine excrement.  The Fair does a GREAT job of keeping the grounds neat and clean.

Of course, since it's Springfield, the principal problem is the two-legged dispensers of taurine excrement.

N9LCD

 ;D   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: PBPP on April 02, 2014, 11:34:04 PM
Sounds as though the critics never attended county or state fairs and walked through the midways.  Or, stepped on horse pucky in the livestock exhibits.  What the heck....

Apples and Oranges. 
BIG difference between walking through human fecal matter and animal manure.  ::)
I'm happy to shovel cow manure but you won't see me working inside a septic tank.

~ Mitch ~
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on April 03, 2014, 04:59:17 AM
As someone mentioned earlier, there were only two incidents that I can remember in the last 15 years that involved human fecal slurry.  The other incident involved overflowing porta-johns placed inside the fleamarket area.  I never saw a bunch of people scatter so quickly when they realized the trickle running across the lot didn't come from a dumped ice chest.  It was hot, and the stench was overpowering.  It's up my nose forever just as the odor of smoldering charcoal and lighter fluid from the concession stand is. You'll notice that they are now place well away from the parking lot out in the grass. But it reflects the overall dilapidated state of the entire site.  Years ago, people could pull a wagon or wheeled shopping basket along the aisles.  Now it looks like the lot has been carpet bombed. Where there is no potholes, there's the material from the holes.  Carts, wagons, and the like get hung up on gravel and stones.  We sit in our spot and joke that the equipment riding in the pull behind is getting the most severe vibration test of its old life.  People inadvertently kick stones across the lot which smack into equipment or other people.  It's really a mess.

W6EM mentions that perhaps the critics never attended county or state fairs and walked through the midways.  Unless you've attended Hamvention, stood in line in a humid unairconditioned dilapidated bathroom with a bunch of sweaty, smelly guys, walked the cratered parking lot, and the dismal, grimy  exhibition areas you can't appreciate just how bad it really is.  I attend a country fair each year for many years.  It's clean and tidy.  The animal exhibition area is continually maintained.  I dare say the animals being shown are perhaps cleaner than many of the attendees.  But there's one other thing.  When I go to this fair, I have just enough money for food and some trinkets.  I don't have a wad of bills in my front pocket that represents my entire year's budget for amateur radio; a new transceiver, an HF amplifier; rotator, antenna, etc.  Do I want to do some serious shopping in an crappy environment like this?  For this year at least, the answer is "No".
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4QG on April 03, 2014, 05:23:59 PM
I agree with all the comments, from both sides of the isle.
It's quite true, the Hara is pretty rough. outdated, smelly and generally uncomfortable.
I really think that if the club had a better place to go, they would have been there years ago.
The simple fact is that there is nothing remotely close that would suffice.
This is after all THEIR show.

A few bucks to fix the tailgate area would be money well spent, what a mess.
As has been noted before, the club has a pretty significant cash positive balance, it would
seem prudent to spend a small portion of that to keep the Hamvention the premier amateur
radio event. Lets be honest, the simple fact is that nothing comes close to Dayton...  At least not
stateside.   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8GD on April 08, 2014, 08:42:22 AM
I have attended Hamvention since 1978 (before I was licensed - I put my CB call on the ticket stub, but I got my Ham ticket a month after Dayton that year!).  I don't think the facilities are much worse now than they were back then, 36 years ago, with the possible exception of the parking lot/flea market area, which is a mess.  As was mentioned much earlier in this thread, you aren't going to uproot the human infrastructure of one of Dayton's oldest conventions, take it out of town, and still make it work.  A few years back the Hamvention committee farmed the operation of the show out to a professional management outfit, and after several years, and a lot of complaints later, DARA took it over again.  It seems that Hams know best how to treat other Hams and run a Hamfest!  Besides, what other kind of facility would permit use of their parking lot area as a flea market?  Hardly any, I think.  As for the restroom facilities, I would venture that even in a more modern venue, the sheer number of attendees would put a strain on any facility's sanitary facilities, not just Hara's.  I will continue to attend and overlook the problems of the facilities and enjoy the wonders of Amateur Radio in all their glory.  Hey, at least it isn't 50% a computer show anymore!

Greg - N8GD
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on April 09, 2014, 04:42:58 AM
[...] Besides, what other kind of facility would permit use of their parking lot area as a flea market?  Hardly any, I think.  As for the restroom facilities, I would venture that even in a more modern venue, the sheer number of attendees would put a strain on any facility's sanitary facilities, not just Hara's.  [...]

I think perhaps hams need to get out a bit more...  there's a whole world out there where people can tailgate in parking lots and still the toilets flush...  just saying'

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC9QQM on April 18, 2014, 08:20:20 AM
Been to the Illinois State Fair in Springfield about a half dozen times.  Never had a problem with equine or bovine excrement.  The Fair does a GREAT job of keeping the grounds neat and clean.

Of course, since it's Springfield, the principal problem is the two-legged dispensers of taurine excrement.

N9LCD

 ;D   

OH I LOVE IT!!! I totally agree! On both points. Wife and I went to see Styx and REO Speedwagon last year and the grounds and the stables are always prestine for a fair. (We are in Bloomington) plan on going to see Boston this year. As far as the 2 legged farm animals, we get what we elect. (not me of course!!)

Went to Dayton for the first time last year and loved it. This year am back but a day early to ride a bike trail that is very close to the state park I camp at! See you there. Got a bunch from our club going. 73!

Jeff
KC9QQM
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on April 18, 2014, 11:33:20 AM
I ordered my Dayton tickets a couple weeks ago and already have received them.  I'm really looking forward to going.  We've had a very tough winter in the central part of the country and can't wait to get out and immerse myself in radio gear, etc.  
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on April 19, 2014, 04:30:32 AM
Cool.  Just don't immerse yourself in anything that flows down into the flea market.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on April 19, 2014, 12:49:49 PM
Cool.  Just don't immerse yourself in anything that flows down into the flea market.

Come on now...Give it up.  We all know Hara Arena is a dilapidated facility, but the flow everyone keeps bringing up was a rare, unexpected fluke.  Heck, you could have the same thing happen in your own front yard, too!  I'm going to see the radio gear and run into old friends! 

Think POSITIVELY!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K1CJS on April 19, 2014, 06:44:50 PM
OK!  I'm positive that the flea market area may get another layer of poo--if it rains hard enough!   ::)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on April 19, 2014, 07:02:39 PM
Come on now...Give it up.  We all know Hara Arena is a dilapidated facility, but the flow everyone keeps bringing up was a rare, unexpected fluke.  Heck, you could have the same thing happen in your own front yard, too!  I'm going to see the radio gear and run into old friends!  

Think POSITIVELY!


Ummmm....kinda one of those posts that wasn't supposed to be taken totally seriously.  

Sheesh, lighten up and smile a bit, or get your Asperger's meds dosed up some.  
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8NUT on May 05, 2014, 04:00:32 AM
There is more of everything at Dayton - vendors, people and better prices.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 13, 2014, 05:01:02 PM
Yeah, and to be honest, its shortcomings do make it sort of an adventure.  Another sewer blowout will give us material for the next couple of years.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: G6GIY on May 14, 2014, 12:08:48 AM
One major drawback for overseas visitors is the lack of reliable flights to Dayton Airport . Last year a 6 hour delay with United and this year Newark-Dayton Cancelled and a 12 hour delay from Washington (message sent from a very grumpy UK ham trying to sleep on the floor at Dulles).
 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 14, 2014, 01:30:15 AM
Oh man, sorry to read that.  Yes sir....welcome to American airline travel, it's pathetic.  Hope you make it OK, we'll look for you there.

Safe travels,

Brad, K9MHZ



Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on May 14, 2014, 03:52:40 AM
Back to the original question...there is no good reason. Ham radio people are like sheep, where 1 goes, most follow, even if it is off a cliff. The real adventure would be to see new places, people and things!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9LCD on May 14, 2014, 07:10:01 AM
AMEN!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8AAZ on May 15, 2014, 02:33:34 PM
Wow Old Thread.  The reason I go is I cannot get to Charlotte, or Vegas, or Vancouver, or Tucson, etc. etc.  That is about it.  Have to suffer for a few thrills I guess.  And I do suffer.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on May 16, 2014, 05:13:36 AM
 

  I am going to "Dayton" on Saturday to meet up with another ham in order to pick up an AR-88 receiver . I am NOT however going to bother going inside .

Been there , done that . Why Dayton indeed. Like I want to pay to walk past rows with a huige percentage of parked cars with no one selling a thing .  The few who are selling will usually ask Ebay prices ++ .

  Pick up the receiver , go home . Win-win . The Ohio club can charge someone else for a look at the rows of parked pick ups and SUVs . ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4PGM on May 17, 2014, 04:14:01 PM
Bob Hope was famous for saying "Thanks for the memories".  ...  What a shame that such a good thing cannot or will not be moved to a more favorable venue.

I planned to be there until tonight and drive home this evening.  I left yesterday after twisting my ankle in the flee market.  I was in one of the forums on Friday and stuck to carpet.  This is my last Hara experience. I lived in Dayton in 2005-2008 and there are other places but I cannot think of one off the top of my head that is as large as Hara. 

I have decided, for me, that I will attend the regional  Hamfests but as N7NSW quoted above, 'Thanks for the memories'.   Dara, you do a great job, I have enjoyed coming for years, but please find another place to hold the event and I'll be back.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on May 17, 2014, 06:27:06 PM
Yes, thanks DARA for the....way it must have been.  First (and last) for me.  Great flea market for buyers, thanks to the cold, wet weather.  I braved it yesterday.  Tried going inside and it was like I was a lone sardine trying to stuff myself into a packed can through a 1/4 inch hole.  Why **anyone** would go inside a jam packed arena to see dealer tables is beyond me.

The DARA van was really impressive.  Had to cost them at least $500K, including gear inside and antenna on the trailer.  Nice 8 foot by 10 foot or so  LCD display on the side of the Flex 5K radio(s) inside.  No tours as the door was closed.  Must be some "extra" money left over when all the bills are paid to have acquired and outfitted it.  I'm sure that the citizens of Dayton will have first class EMCOMM support from DARA.  Wow.

I had a good time with the flea market and found some good deals, largely in part due to the terrible weather.  Certainly no crowds in the flea market Friday morning.
I had a family place to sleep, so not a high cost factor to travel.  Parking was convenient, in the green acres across the road, until we left about noon.  Best move the date forward another month or two to encourage more comfortable weather.  Even had a Canadian say it was warmer in Ontario when he left to come to the Hamfest.

Highlight of my trip wasn't the Hamfest so much as the tour of Mendelson's Third Floor.  When I come back to visit family here, I'll be back to that place.  Never seen anything like it, and never will.  Especially the wire section.  Whole aisles by AWG size.  And, Sam guiding you around the place on his Seguay. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 17, 2014, 07:08:59 PM
.....Dara, you do a great job, I have enjoyed coming for years, but please find another place to hold the event and I'll be back.
Amen to that, brother.

What was it, one of the numerous pot holes, or the ejecta from them that you twisted your ankle on?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4PGM on May 18, 2014, 02:59:16 AM
.....Dara, you do a great job, I have enjoyed coming for years, but please find another place to hold the event and I'll be back.
Amen to that, brother.

What was it, one of the numerous pot holes, or the ejecta from them that you twisted your ankle on?

A little of both.  Looking one way; stepping another.   It probably could have happened anywhere, but with my experiences in the morning with the facilities I decided that I was done.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on May 18, 2014, 08:01:36 AM
One major drawback for overseas visitors is the lack of reliable flights to Dayton Airport . Last year a 6 hour delay with United and this year Newark-Dayton Cancelled and a 12 hour delay from Washington (message sent from a very grumpy UK ham trying to sleep on the floor at Dulles).
 
  Better to fly into Cincinnatti.  Only about 30-40 minute drive on I-75 and a lot better connections.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on May 18, 2014, 08:05:09 AM
.....Dara, you do a great job, I have enjoyed coming for years, but please find another place to hold the event and I'll be back.
Amen to that, brother.

What was it, one of the numerous pot holes, or the ejecta from them that you twisted your ankle on?

Had to laugh a bit, as DARA has/had a $50 fine per tent stake hole policy per the website.  Looking at the big Mendolson's tent, the bill for their tent stake fines should easily exceed $1000.  Or, are Dayton-locals exempt from the fines for adding to the pot hole problem?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 18, 2014, 02:39:21 PM
Well, I'll go against the grain and report that I had a great time.  One guy posted that didn't go inside which I found pretty strange, but he was one less person to navigate around, so thanks for that.  The forums were very good, the new equipment looks better than ever, the flea market was actually very good and the sellers seemed to handle the fickle weather with a lot of patience and humor.  I thought the League was a class act as usual, and everyone seemed to be in a pretty good mood in spite of the weather and the pigpen of a facility.  The bathrooms were nauseating as always, and you just had to tell yourself that you weren't going to let the low lifes who own Hara ruin a great event for you.



Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KYR on May 19, 2014, 07:19:15 AM
The bathrooms were much better than prior years and they actually worked unlike that infamous year when the sewer pipe broke leaving a steaming pile in the lot.

This was the first time I can recall seeing hail, not just once...but twice and also a few rain showers thrown in for good measure. Parking issues....I still maintain that there ought to be a shuttle bus from the lot across the street to the arena, at least the lot wasn't muddy despite the many days of rain prior to the hamfest.

No unbelievable deals this year unlike some years back when the FT 817 was selling for $499. Now I believe the hamfest price was $620 at one vendor. I still had a few good deals like 5 watt used solar panels 2/$25.

Had a good time despite the weather and the crowds inside.  Why Dayton? Well it is less than an hour and a half from here, and it is an event every ham should attend at least once in their lifetime.
.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC9QQM on May 19, 2014, 11:41:30 AM
Well my 2 cents. This was my 2nd Dayton trip.

Over all I enjoyed it, I was glad it was not as hot as last year, but 20 degrees below normal was a bit much. Rain was a bother but a poncho helped with that. Didn't seem to be much different that last year, both inside and outside. I took a whole day on Friday to go over the flea market and all day Saturday to cover the inside which I didn't have the time to last year so I enjoyed all the vendors much more.

Guess I will have to see if I end up with any big needs as to if I want to hit it next year. Might take a year or 2 off as it seemed that once you have seen it, you have seen it.

Glad I was inside when the hail came on Saturday!

Jeff
KC9QQM
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: BA4TB on May 19, 2014, 08:46:16 PM
Was there las year,could not go this year due to my father's illness!
Good place to meet the people who had contacted on the radio.

73,
Dale BA4TB
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on May 20, 2014, 03:33:40 AM
..........  One guy posted that didn't go inside which I found pretty strange, but he was one less person to navigate around, so thanks for that. ..........




    That sideways comment was probably about me   ;D .   It would have been more strange to actually go inside and navigate the crowd when there is absolutely nothing inside that sparks my interest . Very strange  to actually enter Hara restrooms once again after experiencing them the first time . Different people get their pleasure in different ways , sometimes avoiding certain activities is a good thing . You are eternally welcome to my space in that building !

       I did enter the flea market area and met up with Ken , W0HRO to finalize the aquisition of a very nice RCA AR-88 . I took a quick lap around , saw a few radio friends and departed right after the hale and rain around 10:30 total time at the hamfest was about 20 minutes . Got a good dose of second hand tobacco nicotine as well as smoke from some dead carcass that someone was trying to "cook" . I "enjoyed" about as much of that as I could stand :o .  Dayton is a convenient place to exchange gear even if you skip going inside the arena to check out the plastic appliances  ;) .

   The AR-88 was well worth the trip , staying outside of the arena was a decision based on years of experience .
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 20, 2014, 09:59:40 AM
"....hale...."
"....dead carcass...."

Not sure what "hale" is, or if there is such a thing as a live "carcass."

Well, I can see your $25 admission was money well spent. 

Good grief.

 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on May 20, 2014, 01:32:08 PM
  The money was fairly new , still had a lot of life , not at all "well spent".  I got everything I expected and then some  so the money was indeed spent well .


Yes , it was my money , and I was happy to pay only $25 , along with the $20 donation that I gave to the church , about a half mile away where I parked the car  . Very friendly people at that church , a fine place to park .

 Picking up the receiver was my main purpose for the trip .  The AR-88 is a very nice receiver and it was good to meet Ken .  Plenty of return for the time and money at that point .
There was absolutely nothing inside that I was willing to spend the time to see  .

  I can understand that others truly enjoy other aspects , so be it . Good for them .
 Life is short and I did have better things to do that day . It was nice to get back home at 2:30 PM  on Saturday and spend the extra time with my lovely wife .

  The navigation issue was mutually beneficial , just another plus to staying outside .

  I hope you got all you wanted from your trip . I certainly did , thanks for the concern .

 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on May 21, 2014, 06:25:06 AM
HARA stinks, for sure.  First time (and last) for me.  I don't like being shoved and pushed just to see a few vendors parked on the arena floor.  Spent enough time to drop the ticket, then escaped back to the flea market.  Orlando was much better on Friday.  And, it didn't cost me $10 to park the darn car on top of the ticket.  Not sure if my $30 investment was worth the half dozen nickle and dime items from the fractured flea market.

As for regional alternatives, the old GM truck plant at Moraine/Kettering has over 2 million square feet of space.  Surely some of that could be used for the vendor tables and "talks."  The parking lot and vehicle storage lots dwarf HARA for flea markets and parking.

And, for another one, 20 miles down the road to Cincinnati is VOA Park.  Complete with a Voice of America radio museum.  Over 400 acres.  Sure, no inside venues, but a couple of circus tents could house the peddlers and talkers.

When I go back to visit family, I'll go back to Mendelson's.  That place was huge.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8DV on May 21, 2014, 11:50:53 AM
Well, I went to Dayton 2014. This time my son and I drove down and did the whole thing in one day. As last year, I was disappointed in both the Hamvention and the crummy venue. For the life of me, I don't understand why the owners don't make some improvements--like repaving the parking lot for the fleamarket. Anyway, it rained on Friday the day we could go down. In the flea market, there were more cars parked than vendors! It was raining so the good stuff was covered up by the vendor and that left the junk that wasn't worth looking at. I have been attending Dayton since 1982, and I must say I am disappointed in how far it has slid in both content and presentation.
I do attend two smaller swaps, one in Findlay, Ohio that's small and interesting and the very nice one in Ft.Wayne at the Memorial Coliseum. What a venue that is!
The room that it's held is approximately 15,000 square feet! Clean restrooms at both ends of the exhibition hall and even a food vendor in the hall. Just a side, this is just one of three huge halls at the Coliseum. Finally, the parking lot is immense. It has to be at least 10 acres of asphalt. You do have to pay $4.00 for parking but then walk right in. Two years ago, I was there and the swap was going on plus the Ringling and Barnum-Bailey circus was performing in the arena. No problem! The place handled everything without any bottlenecks, etc.
In conclusion, I am thinking that this may be--sadly--my last year of attendance at Dayton. I am sorry that there are those hams that think that the current Dayton Hamvention is pretty good. Speak to an old timer and ask about the glory days of Hamvention, 34,000 plus and it took two days to see and do it all!  73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on May 22, 2014, 05:38:42 AM

And, for another one, 20 miles down the road to Cincinnati is VOA Park.  Complete with a Voice of America radio museum. 


Very cool site with a rich history.  Check out their YouTube, you'll be amazed. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on May 22, 2014, 08:25:10 AM
HARA stinks, for sure.  First time (and last) for me.  I don't like being shoved and pushed just to see a few vendors parked on the arena floor.  Spent enough time to drop the ticket, then escaped back to the flea market.  Orlando was much better on Friday.  And, it didn't cost me $10 to park the darn car on top of the ticket.  Not sure if my $30 investment was worth the half dozen nickle and dime items from the fractured flea market.


When I go back to visit family, I'll go back to Mendelson's.  That place was huge.



   Pretty much the same experience . I thought that it was unlikely that I would be going to Dayton again about 15 years ago .  For the last 5 years that I had attended we didn't even bother to go into the arena . 
 This year I had made arrangements to pick up a nice RCA AR-88 that a fellow ham was bringing up .  I had intended meeting him away from the actual Hamvention , concluding the deal and getting back home .  As it turned out , I wound up buying a ticket and going into the flea market area . 
 Things have really slipped since the last visit . It took about 20 minutes to enjoy about all I could stand . 
 The radio was worth the trip and meeting Ken ? W0HRO was a pleasure long overdue . The fellows at the church where I parked were very nice to talk with and I probably spent more time there than at the Hamvention !
   The alternate sites you mention should be at least considered by the DARA people . Seems a lot of people have now decided to drop their plans to visit the Hamvention .

   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2YO on May 24, 2014, 05:54:39 PM
For the life of me, I don't understand why the owners don't make some improvements--like repaving the parking lot for the fleamarket.

That one's easy to figure out. It's the cost! I'm guessing it would cost at least $100,000 and probably more to repave that back parking lot. Is anyone around here in the paving business?

I doubt HARA makes that kind of profit in a year, let alone have that much to reinvest into the business.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on May 24, 2014, 06:50:38 PM
For the life of me, I don't understand why the owners don't make some improvements--like repaving the parking lot for the fleamarket.

That one's easy to figure out. It's the cost! I'm guessing it would cost at least $100,000 and probably more to repave that back parking lot. Is anyone around here in the paving business?

I doubt HARA makes that kind of profit in a year, let alone have that much to reinvest into the business.

So, how much of the $20 * 25,000 ticket gross does HARA realize from each Hamvention?  Probably at least half.  And, if you amortize a $100K asphalt job over a few years, well, frankly it's a drop in the bucket.  So, that gets us back to the Wamplers being in the "run til it's a wreck" mode. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WA2ONH on June 07, 2014, 10:38:17 AM
Just for the record, 2014 Dayton Hamvention says....

"Attendance for 2014 was 24,873!"

LINK: https://twitter.com/hamvention/status/475102395592998912
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N3DF on June 08, 2014, 11:43:46 AM
I always find several of the dozens of offered forums to be of interest, even outstanding.  I can't imagine going to the Hamvention and not spending some time indoors.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 03:22:19 PM
Except for the parking lot, Dayton is not bad.
But, lets say that this place imploded,the building simply was gone for some reason.
Think the Dayton ham club would just not have another one?
They would find a fix, somehow!
I would find a fix.
With that mentality in mind, what would it take?
Sure, the exploding sewer line was not nice, but, really?
Oozing poo, by the thousands of gallons?! and it was going to engulf the hamvention!
The Restrooms are not nice!
Dude, the restrooms are not going to be nice, at least not with a zillion hams about!
You ever seen the portable toilets they put up at concerts and the like? 20 of them in a row and you will change your mind.
Parking lot not paved?
Dude, again, the concert, dirt!
But, it smalls, well it stinks!
Are you sure it is not the hams stinking up the place?!
The point being, it is really not all that bad.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 08, 2014, 05:10:07 PM
But...compared to other venues and swapfests, its really not that good either.

The notion that because you have so many people at the Hamvention they can't keep the bathrooms in better shape? How do football stadiums do it? How do basketball arenas do it? Baseball stadiums? You name it. Its absurd to believe that. The poor conditions are that way because the owners are too cheap to rehabilitate the facilities, or do proper maintenance, or provide enough staff to keep the facilities clean. And as long as we give them our money willingly, these deteriorating conditions will continue.

If I could rent a place at a premium price, and not put much in the way of expenses...maintenance etc... and the customer is dumb enough to accept it and keep coming back, I would do it in a heartbeat. And it seems that hams are that dumb. Been there 2 times recently...never again.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 08, 2014, 07:18:29 PM
Hello.

Yes, sporting events are super clean, but how long is the crowd there? 2 hours, 3 hours, 5 hours at the most.
The same is true of most concerts, 5 hours is really long.
Now, Woodstock, the ultimate in filth, and that was out on a farm. with a lake even!
However, as I pointed out, only the parking lot/flea market is the problem.
Dayton club members should assign some members to clean up detail.
Or ask for more staff from HARA, or a combo of both.
I worked the Bexar County United Democrat headquarters and did clean up detail until too much was expected from me, so I quit.
The place went from nice to a cesspool in 3 days!
But, again, a row of 20 porta potties at Dayton would solve a lot of that.
They do not smell nice, but it would work.
I know, that is what BCUD ended up doing.  ;D
Ever go to a large construction site? porta potties throughout the site, and portable office buildings with real toilets, and air conditioning.
So, depends on what the Dayton ham club wants to do.
BCUD was upset, and there are still people mad at me!
However I will never volunteer for anything like that again, and most likely, that is what happened at Dayton ham club.
A team of 5 people assigned to keep the place clean, can keep it clean.
But, you are not going to get volunteers.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 09, 2014, 04:10:51 AM
Which is exactly my point. Hara owners are too cheap to provide enough staff for the event. And that is what DARA pays for is a well maintained, properly cleaned facility. But it does not happen. They get the Hara you see. And hams are dumb enough to continue to support such a facility.

What is really hilarious is in other threads that say hams are such slobs. I am willing to bet those same slobs are the ones going to Dayton then. They fit right in with the mess, and contribute to it in more ways then just their admission ticket.

Sorry but my statement stands. There are too many swapfests in good venues to worry about the 3rd world ham mecca known as Hara. And in most cases, the 3rd world would be ashamed to have an event in such conditions.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 09, 2014, 04:43:50 PM
Hello.

DARA likes HARA, it is just that simple.
The Restroom issue can be addressed with a row of porta potties, and cleaning of the inside ones.
Go in with a parking lot cleaning service and deal with that.
The rest? really does not matter.
Shuttle bus? what is wrong with the one at the hotel?
Most of the odor is from the hams themselves.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N5PG on June 11, 2014, 10:05:27 PM
I first went in 1991, I rode the hotel shuttle from the airport with Lloyd & Iris Colvin ;D
DARA had shuttle buses to/from all the decent hotel/motels.
HARA was a dump but the outdoor fleas went right to the boundaries, immense flea market.
Attendance 30,000+ even in variable wx (it was in April back then).

Next was 1993, much the same, HARA still a dump.

Long gap until 2008. Flea market much smaller, HARA looked exactly the same, still a dump ::)

Last one for me was "poop fountain" year (2011, I think). Enough.

Unless I get a super cheap airfare, or gas goes back to < $2/gal, I doubt I'll go again.

I would love to go to Friedrichshafen . . . . . .

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 13, 2014, 05:09:59 AM
Hello.

I went with some friends to Dayton.
We had gone to Defcon.
Yes, 2011, and the poop fountain.
https://www.defcon.org/
I have to agree, the place really is a "**** hole" and it now has a fountain to prove it!
Some of my friends wanted to bring weapons!
Defcon has this no weapons rule, and for the most part everyone is cool with that.
When you have a bunch of hackers who want guns, something is WAY wrong!
Will they ever listen to me when I suggest a place to visit?
Will I ever even suggest a place to visit?
I would prefer to go visit a crack house, at night the first week of the month, than Dayton!
Contrast this to Defcon.
At least people took a shower once in a while.
No hamabouts, ever!
And, the place is NICE, no poo fountain!
I attended a seminar on spectral purity, more dealing with WiFi, but it was clear that thought went into this.
They build antennas for 22 mile long WiFi contacts.
That is 1 watt at microwave 22 miles!
Home brew microwave.
Now, the rules are simple, no "ham crap".
Amazing enough, I heard that before from a bunch of Republicans.
But, that was the introduction a bunch of hackers got to Dayton, and ham radio!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB0MCO on June 15, 2014, 08:40:32 PM



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RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?

« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2013, 06:19:22 AM »

Reply with quoteQuote
 


"The Hara is a deplorable, decrepit, dump (the three D's), but the fact is, DARA runs Hamvention, and no one else "


I don't understand the above quote, said many times here. This was my first time to Dayton[2014]
and I didn't find the place deplorable. The parking lot does need repairs but not as bad as some of the streets I drive on. The rest rooms were clean,the inside areas were clean,bus transportation great. What more do you want from Dayton?  Thanks to the people in charge. I had a great time.
 Dave, WB0MCO
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 15, 2014, 09:32:30 PM
Hello.

Dayton is what it is.
I have seen better venues, but I have seen far worse.
Lets face it, most hams are slobs.
Yes, the place quickly looks like crap, but why?
Dude, the place looks like a pigsty due to the pigs!
And, have you listened to radio lately?
I am a people person, and breath fire, dance with machetes, do magic tricks, etc.
I see hundreds of people daily.
Six Flags Theme Park charges $70-$90, as there is this minimum threshold, the price barrier that keeps rif raf out.
Think hams would show up if the price of admission were $70 plus $20 for parking?
I do a skit at the Superbowl, where tickets are over $400, if you can get them!
The reason that the prices are so high is supply and demand, and to keep the rif raf out.
I do not see the level of trash at the Superbowl that I see at Dayton.
You pay $1200+ to see a sporting event, you do not act like a slob.
So, yes, Dayton could be better, but what is it going to cost?
Would you pay $149 for an admission ticket, the average price of a concert admission?
Remember that event parking is extra.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 16, 2014, 03:51:13 AM
Hara would never be a venue for such an event like the Super Bowl or anything else in size and scope. The comparison is laughable at best, idiotic being a better description.

Better find your tin foil hat!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 16, 2014, 05:09:52 AM
Hello.

The Superbowl is the extreme example.
But, a hamfest is very much a trade show and flea market rolled up into one.
They have "Special" days, like having a gun show.
http://tradersvillage.com/san-antonio/
Or, how about a CB fest?
It is NOT Air Conditioned, and no RV parking on site.
It is porta pottie heaven, there must be 40 of the things!
It does get dirty, and the crew spends the rest of the week cleaning and repairing.
Friday, it is sparking, Sunday night, crapsville.
Contrast this to Six Flags, it is in constant clean mode, and every night it gets washed.
I do NOT mean cleaned, I mean WASHED!
There are a lot of air conditioned areas and water rides, swimming pool, etc.
There are Real restrooms, almost everywhere!
No flea market, and you can not stink!
Both have amusement rides.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 16, 2014, 06:14:01 AM
None of which are at Hara. Again the comparison is not even logical. The only comparison is to similar types of venue with similar crowd size and distribution which you fail to accomplish.

Keep writing...maybe some day you will make a lucid point! So far, as my daughter would say, epic fail.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 16, 2014, 10:07:43 AM
Hello.

Actually, attendance, size of venue.
Traders Village and Hara are pretty close.
http://www.haracomplex.com/
Both host a whole lot of the same stuff, close to the same overall size etc.
In South Texas, ham radio draws a lot of yawns.
In Texas in general, ham radio draws a lot of yawns.
When I try to explain Amateur Radio, HF is the hardest.
Talk to China?, VoIP?
Most kids are very happy with their smart phone and VoIP.
So, the little Chinese talkies that go for under $50 and GMRS or MURS?
They are happy with that.
And, that is the point, what exactly is at a hamfest that the would make the average person want to want to go?
But, no, I tried to draw the closest I can in size, etc.
Rides for entertainment and shopping.
Hara has its good points and its bad points.
But, what makes it disgusting is not the sewer fountain, that was just the highlight.
What really stinks are the hams!
That and they act, well, odd?
San Antonio is host to Fiesta every year, and hams are very much NOT a part of that.
So, what exactly does this Hamvention do? both right and wrong?
What would it take to fix the problems, sort of requiring every one to have been showered every morning and not be a slob on the property.
Yes, I see the problems at this ham fest being less the facility and more the people attending.
That has nothing to do with the facility.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on June 16, 2014, 10:25:48 AM
.....Lets face it, most hams are slobs.....
Speak for yourself, pal.  I go to Hamvention every year in slacks or jeans, and a golf shirt .....and a big wad of cash in the front pocket.  I've stood in my last line waiting to use a filthy toilet, or browsing the inside displays with the heat and accompanying humidity of the unairconditioned "ballrooms" (hah!).  When the plan is to leave behind a couple of $G's on equipment, I think it's only fair to expect a level of........  savoir faire that's commensurate with quantity of cash being left behind.  If someone goes to Hamvention in week-old sweat pants and ripped T-shirt (and I've seen plenty of that), then perhaps the place looks great to them.  They'll fit right into the ambiance of that place.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on June 16, 2014, 11:26:23 AM
Some things to know about all this....

Everyone keeps complaining about the restroom situation at Hara.  I have attended MOST Hamventions since 1975.  In the last couple of years, I have found the restrooms to be much better maintained than they were years ago.  The stalls, while heavily used, have been stocked with TP and there seems to be more attention to keeping the place "habitable".  If you want clean restrooms at Hara, Here's a hint:  Use the ones near the conference rooms where the seminars are conducted.  I have found them to be bright and clean. 

A comment about parking....  Someone mentioned that general attendee parking has NEVER been available on the Hara property.  That is not correct!  Before about 1980, the Hara property extended well back to include what is now the golf course, which this year, seems to have been abandoned.  Parking was also available in the field on the western edge of the flea market along Basore Rd, too.  How do I know?  From about 1975-78, I volunteered to direct traffic into these areas.  When the golf course was built (early-mid 80's), the flea market got crunched back toward the Hara building and was also squeezed outward toward Basore Rd in the unpaved area (where parking was once permitted).  While these lots usually filled by mid-morning, there were always other FREE parking areas available.  And there has always been PAID parking nearby at the Mormon Church on Shiloh Springs (except on Sundays) and in the fields adjacent to the Hara property.

Parking has been available at Salem Mall for as long as I can remember.  At one time, another shopping center, Forest Park on North Main St. was also used.  Forest Park was abandoned probably 10 years (or more) ago when that shopping center was torn down.  FREE shuttle service on buses was available.  At the time, as I recall, a private bus service (St. John's Transportation) was used.  But again, years ago, St. John's belly-upped leaving only Dayton's RTA to fill the shuttle needs.  With RTA came higher costs for DARA.  Many, if not all, of the hotel routes were no longer offered...BUT...How many of you knew that when you now buy a 3-Day weekend pass for the Shuttle bus from Salem Mall to Hara, you also received unlimited use of the RTA busses throughout the Dayton area for those three days?

DARA is a fine organization.  When I lived there over 30 years ago, I was a member.  There are 300-400 members who VOLUNTEER their time to pull everything off!  Back in the 90's, DARA actually hired a professional organization to run the show, but found it cost too much and admission prices would have to be dramatically increased.  Bottom line:  The DARA volunteers could do a better job for less money.  Still, DARA has to hire security people, ambulance staff, etc., for the weekend.  There are many other expenses involved in running a show like this that are too numerous to mention. 

Yes, I would love to see Hara Arena upgraded, especially the flea market parking area.  Speaking of upgrades...How many remembered back about 20-25 years ago when the Hara folks tried to build a nice resort-type hotel in that wooded area at the corner of Shiloh Springs Rd and Basore Rd?  With the hotel, updates to the Hara Facility were planned. 

Obviously, it NEVER happened.  Why, you ask? 

Answer...The locals would not approve the zoning and the idea was scuttled...

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 16, 2014, 11:38:47 AM
Hello.

Actually, attendance, size of venue.
Traders Village and Hara are pretty close.
http://www.haracomplex.com/
Both host a whole lot of the same stuff, close to the same overall size etc.

That has nothing to do with the facility.


See what I mean about the comparison not being logical? Traders village is a modern, up to date, dedicated shopping/amusement forum. Hara is an aging dilapidated sports area. How is that the same venue? Trader Village's parking lot is bigger then the entire Hara complex. How is that the same size?

I used your links to make the comparison. Maybe instead of quoting links, you should read and understand what is in the links. Or maybe you just have no clue how to compare building sizes, types, uses or land sizes or a number of other things.

A closer comparison would have been the Hemisfair arena in downtown San Antonio that was torn down in 1995. It at least had a similar function in its heyday.

Hara should have been torn down long before that.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 17, 2014, 11:27:46 AM
Hello.

Traders Village expanded not that long ago, to 5 times its former size.
The old arena was replaced by the Alamodome.
But, before there as the AT&T center, there was the coliseum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Center
So, it is really hard to get a good comparison, the venues keep getting expanded.
The old coliseum is still around.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Coliseum
And, it is about the same age.
But, there is nothing quite like it, with over 200 toilets, even all the hams at Dayton could not overload it.
The old Arena was bigger.
It is set up much like Hara, with several buildings.
Perhaps the convention center would be a closer match?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_B._Gonzalez_Convention_Center
But, even that has expanded, but has no actual parking lot, so an outdoor flea market would not be possible.
So, you see, from 1949 (1936) to the latest, less than 2 years old including expansion.
Hara, for the price, is not bad.
To rent the coliseum for the same period would be 5 times as much.
Hara, itself is not the problem, it is the bunch of cheap hams.
Clearly, the hamfest is not the only thing going on there.
If it were really that horrible, and the Dayton club felt it was, it would be moved.
But, for the price, it works for the Dayton club.
Hara is not the only venue big enough for this ham fest, but the cheapest for its size for miles around.
Safe to say, you are not going to find cheaper unless you rent an open field, and have all the hams poop in a designated portion of the field.
Not in the Dayton area!


Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4AAB on June 20, 2014, 07:04:43 AM
I'm glad I read this topic, I wont be going to hamvention in Dayton. I'll spend my money elsewhere.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K5MF on June 21, 2014, 07:50:50 PM
I'm glad I read this topic, I wont be going to hamvention in Dayton. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

You do understand that this topic comes up every year, right?  And it tends to attract those who have no answers, only criticism.  There are those who will badmouth DARA and HARA for everything and anything and there are those who will defend them at all costs. The reality is probably somewhere between these two extremes.  My advice is not to use this thread or forum for advice on whether or not you should go to Dayton.

I'll tell you what, I spent a lot of years floating around on US Naval ships and the Hara is certainly no worse than them.  There are guys sleeping in the sands of Afghanistan and I can tell you the Hara is no worse than those venues.  Hara may not be pristine and new with hot towels and an attendant in the restrooms, but you can tolerate it for a couple of days.  Don't let the naysayers keep you from trying Dayton at least once.  I think you'll have fun.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KV7W on June 22, 2014, 08:32:34 AM
HARA - more fun than a vacation to a war zone! Bring your shot records and a water purifier for 2% off admission! You can go 3 days without water, 3 weeks without food. Remember our motto: It's only a couple days!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 22, 2014, 11:30:21 AM
Hello.

Do not get me wrong, I did not mind it, I am a ham.
But, I tried to introduce a few friends to it, and it just did not work!
The problem was less the place and more the people.
What is it with all the handicapped scooter things?
Dude, what is the average age of hams? 90?
And, everyone has seen on, some old man or lady that you can smell coming?
Take that mental picture, multiply by about, oh, say 10000, and you have it!
And, used ham radios? NO! but if you want a few hundred used computers, This is the Place!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K6CPO on June 22, 2014, 03:05:38 PM
I think the topic would be better expressed as "Why Hara?"

Well, I have a theory.  If DARA were to move Hamvention to a newer, better facility it would impact their bottom line and it's obvious from their club building and communications van, they don't want that to happen.  DARA is probably the wealthiest ham radio club in the nation.  What other club do you know that has a building that looks like this?

http://www.w8bi.org/index.php/faq/dara-club-house

Or a comm van that looks like this?

http://www.w8bi.org/index.php/the-news/new-dara-van-august-2012

Nope, as long as hams continue to attend Hamvention in the numbers they do, DARA isn't going to move the event...
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4AAB on June 22, 2014, 04:53:20 PM
I'm glad I read this topic, I wont be going to hamvention in Dayton. I'll spend my money elsewhere.

You do understand that this topic comes up every year, right?  And it tends to attract those who have no answers, only criticism.  There are those who will badmouth DARA and HARA for everything and anything and there are those who will defend them at all costs. The reality is probably somewhere between these two extremes.  My advice is not to use this thread or forum for advice on whether or not you should go to Dayton.

I'll tell you what, I spent a lot of years floating around on US Naval ships and the Hara is certainly no worse than them.  There are guys sleeping in the sands of Afghanistan and I can tell you the Hara is no worse than those venues.  Hara may not be pristine and new with hot towels and an attendant in the restrooms, but you can tolerate it for a couple of days.  Don't let the naysayers keep you from trying Dayton at least once.  I think you'll have fun.

I've been out for weeks on a US Navy destroyer, in the North Atlantic and the Carribean Sea, no air conditioning in our work spaces, and the heating wasn't great either. But I wasn't going to a convention I paid money to attend.

I expect accomidations, sidewalks, restrooms, etc. at a convention that are of at least fair quality. If I have to watch my step to keep from falling down, or the restrooms fill up and are never cleaned, I see no reason to go that a convention that has that. Ever.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on June 22, 2014, 06:41:35 PM
.........I have a theory.  If DARA were to move Hamvention to a newer, better facility it would impact their bottom line and it's obvious from their club building and communications van, they don't want that to happen..........
From the looks of their yearly IRS 990.  If they don't do something soon, they won't have any bottom line left.
Here's DARA's yearly Net Income as I see it:
2012: $45,403
2011: $86,948
2010: $182,108
2009: $128,174
2008: $172,976
It would appear that Hamvention is circling the drain. These are low years, if you look beyond what is listed here. These incomes are paltry compared to Hamvention's glory years....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 22, 2014, 07:06:48 PM
Hello.

It is not just DARA, or Dayton, but all of ham radio!
Have you looked at ham radio lately?
I am THE old fart at Defcon, but bring the average age down at a hamfest!
Most CBers are afraid I might get sick at the flea markets!
They have the medical staff members standing by, not just when I do the fire breathing thing, but at all times!
They make sure there is always a lot of cold water at hand.
And, again, I am quite young for a ham!
Dude, everyone I remember growing up with is dead!
I remember when picking up the phone gave you "Number please?".
I grew up with 3 on a tree and 4 on the floor.
Ethel, and you got that at a service station.
You drove up, running over a rubber tube, DING!, and "Fill 'er up?!", and "Would you like me to check the oil".
If you had trouble with your phone, you called 0 or 611 from a payphone and they asked when you would like the serviceman to come, never any extra charge.
Things have changed, better or worse.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KV7W on June 22, 2014, 08:59:28 PM
.........I have a theory.  If DARA were to move Hamvention to a newer, better facility it would impact their bottom line and it's obvious from their club building and communications van, they don't want that to happen..........
From the looks of their yearly IRS 990.  If they don't do something soon, they won't have any bottom line left.
Here's DARA's yearly Net Income as I see it:
2012: $45,403
2011: $86,948
2010: $182,108
2009: $128,174
2008: $172,976
It would appear that Hamvention is circling the drain. These are low years, if you look beyond what is listed here. These incomes are paltry compared to Hamvention's glory years....

Actually, their gross receipts have gone up for the most part. (I think your 2012 number is actually for 2011, filed in 2012.) According to the 2011 990, the gross receipts:
2007: $653,210
2008: $692,822
2009: $593,599
2010: $709,648
2011: $719,652

They are seeing growth. They also have a few million in in unrestricted assets and see about 10 grand in interest income a year. They have to spend money to keep the net profit numbers down, they are a non-profit after all. While I don't think there's any rule that says they can't amass billions, there are the members and donors that can see the public records and ask, "Why can't they do more if the money is there? Their kids aren't starving, think I'll hold on to my cash this year." Better to always show need.

In 2011 they spent almost $179,000 on goods and services, $46,000 on radio rental(?), maintenance and repairs was $20,756, credit card fees' was $20,284, and all "other" expenses was $147,741.

Not bad for a radio club, Wouldn't say it would be great for a small company. Too bad a lot more radio clubs didn't have these kind of numbers. Competition encourages change. Dayton is centrally located in the middle between three large urban centers in Ohio - great place to have a club with a repeater, or a business. Any other local club would have a hard time competing, unless they were right in Dayton.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4AAB on June 23, 2014, 07:03:21 AM
Hello.

It is not just DARA, or Dayton, but all of ham radio!
Have you looked at ham radio lately?
I am THE old fart at Defcon, but bring the average age down at a hamfest!
Most CBers are afraid I might get sick at the flea markets!
They have the medical staff members standing by, not just when I do the fire breathing thing, but at all times!
They make sure there is always a lot of cold water at hand.
And, again, I am quite young for a ham!
Dude, everyone I remember growing up with is dead!
I remember when picking up the phone gave you "Number please?".
I grew up with 3 on a tree and 4 on the floor.
Ethel, and you got that at a service station.
You drove up, running over a rubber tube, DING!, and "Fill 'er up?!", and "Would you like me to check the oil".
If you had trouble with your phone, you called 0 or 611 from a payphone and they asked when you would like the serviceman to come, never any extra charge.
Things have changed, better or worse.

I remember all of that, and had only 3 television stations within viewing distnace. And a thunderstorm between our house and one of them to actually get a picture and sound.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on June 23, 2014, 09:29:46 AM

.....Actually, their gross receipts have......

I said nothing about gross receipts.  I said NET INCOME.  All you have to do is  check their 990's and do the math.  It's all right online.  So if their gross receipts are going up, and yet their net income is going down, I would think that would be a problem.

If you're looking at Gross Receipts, then the gate admission alone would be somewhere in the $550,000 range.  It's what they have left in their pocket after expenditures and expenses at the end of the year that matters, and last year according to their filing wasn't much.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KV7W on June 23, 2014, 02:16:31 PM

.....Actually, their gross receipts have......

I said nothing about gross receipts.  I said NET INCOME.  All you have to do is  check their 990's and do the math.  It's all right online.  So if their gross receipts are going up, and yet their net income is going down, I would think that would be a problem.

If you're looking at Gross Receipts, then the gate admission alone would be somewhere in the $550,000 range.  It's what they have left in their pocket after expenditures and expenses at the end of the year that matters, and last year according to their filing wasn't much.

Yeah, I didn't see much of a mention of a breakdown of accounts payable either. As long they have cash flow, a bunch of unrestricted assets, and interest income - they could show $1 net profit a year and be doing great, and the accountant would be tickled.

Higher gross and lower net every year might just mean they are becoming more proficient at running the club assets. Hopefully, they aren't saving for a rainy day, but spending more, so they don't have rainy days. As long as the cash doesn't go in their pocket, but stays in the club's pocket, I don't think anyone cares. Worse case? (Other than criminal), the lower net profit last year is still more that the gross income of most radio clubs - and those clubs still seem to get together and take care of the repeater. Dara could weather a pretty big storm.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on June 24, 2014, 11:08:19 AM
I always find several of the dozens of offered forums to be of interest, even outstanding.  I can't imagine going to the Hamvention and not spending some time indoors.


   Having been inside already on several (too many) occasions , I couldn't imagine going in .  If I lived across the street from Hara , I wouldn't go in . When the rains came , "inside" was getting inside my car and driving home .
This will be my very last trip to the Dayton Hamvention . Move the hamfest from Hara and I would probably make the trip again .
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 24, 2014, 06:02:51 PM
Hello.

DUDE! I am 100% with you on that!
The Dayton ham fest needs to be outdoors!
The problem is that hams stink!
Think about this, ham comes from what?!
And to cluster them all together indoors!
That is why I am thinking, how did they do Woodstock.
A few show trailers, a stage, perhaps ZZ Top and Willie Nelson on stage?
Dude, we could make ham radio popular again!
Some farmers field would be perfect!
Mix the Defcon bunch in, and it just might work, that is nothing but younger people.
Have a CB section with Amateur Radio related training available, explaining the differences.
GMRS to 2 meters training.
You get the idea.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on June 25, 2014, 04:10:12 AM
I think the topic would be better expressed as "Why Hara?"

Well, I have a theory.  If DARA were to move Hamvention to a newer, better facility it would impact their bottom line and it's obvious from their club building and communications van, they don't want that to happen.  DARA is probably the wealthiest ham radio club in the nation.  What other club do you know that has a building that looks like this?

http://www.w8bi.org/index.php/faq/dara-club-house

Or a comm van that looks like this?

http://www.w8bi.org/index.php/the-news/new-dara-van-august-2012

Nope, as long as hams continue to attend Hamvention in the numbers they do, DARA isn't going to move the event...

I'll bet there are nice, clean restrooms in the clubhouse.  Perhaps consider using their new van as a continuous shuttle between Hara and the clubhouse for those needing to use the facilities?

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 25, 2014, 05:01:01 AM
Hello.

Sure, you can expect this, but why would they want to?
You are missing the point, HARA is not the problem, the Hams are the Problem.
There are dozens and dozens of events at HARA throughout the year, events that return year after year, they do NOT have the problem that the Hamvention has.
In San Antonio, there is no more ham fest at the CPS building.
http://www.cpsenergy.com/About_CPS_Energy/News_Features/Events/Villita_Assembly_Building/
They say that hams are filthy.
They host about 100 events every year, and only the hams had issues, restrooms and wanting shuttles, etc.
So, they tried Municipal auditorium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio_Municipal_Auditorium
Same thing.
Let me make this simple, hams are self centered slobs.
Not all of them, but enough to be a problem.
Dayton could build a brand spanking new place, and it would be a wreck!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WA2E on June 25, 2014, 04:05:38 PM
Obviously you have not been to Hara. I believe the last time I was there was '96 and it was a mess then. God forbid you have to take a crap while there. Every toilet is backed up. DARA does a wonderful job. I will never attend again until they find a new venue.

 I have never been to Dayton but would love to go.
[/quote]

AE5QB....the issue is Hara, not DARA. Read the thread and relax.

[/quote]

Actually I am quite relaxed, thank you.  And I disagree with you.  The issue is not Hara, the issue that everyone wants to make out of this is that D.A.R.A. should move the event or it should be held somewhere else in the country.  Go back and read the posts - the east coast, Florida, Vegas, anywhere there is a nicer venue. Well isn't that a simple and well thought out decision?  My understanding is that D.A.R.A. has looked at other venues and has found nothing feasible.  Let's get down to the brass tacks here.  If not Hara, where?  Be specific.  Come up with a great idea and then the rest of us can think of the dozens of reasons why your idea is not feasible or just dumb.  And that is exactly what is being done here. D.A.R.A. is being portrayed as an incompetent or dumb group of folks for not choosing another venue.  Again, put up or shut up.  What happens is people want to complete complain but they have no real suggestions.  If that makes you feel better then I suggest you look in the mirror because that is where the problem lies.  Everyone knows about the sewage problem, it has been discussed over and over and over and please provide the names of those who died from hepatitis or dysentery.  Can't come up with any, I didn't think you would.  But boy that sure makes great press doesn't it?  Sewer problems occur from time to time.  Have you never had your toilet back up?  Shame on you!  You should move to another home immediately.  Don't you know that people can die from hepatitis and dysentery.  My gosh folks.  Get a life.  I say it again - either put up and do something better or shut up.  If you want another suggestion, join D.A.R.A. and show them how to do it correctly.  I am confident they will appreciate your enlightened input.
I didn't think so.

By the way, I teach my students to be objective observers; something I am not seeing in these repetitive and ongoing threads.  Keep it in perspective, please and look for solutions.

[/quote]
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 25, 2014, 08:22:55 PM
Hello.

I agree.
Dayton has a venue.
The number one issue seems to be the rest rooms, Porta Potties!
That fixes that!
Move? the thing is in Dayton!, find an affordable venue that is in Dayton.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 25, 2014, 10:22:16 PM
Hello.

DARA does Dayton because,  well, it is Dayton.
There is no reason your club can not do a hamfest.
I look at it as an open invitation.
Defcon is in Vegas due to the fact that the guys want to get to get away from that ball and chain.
The Tejano CB club has its thing out on some farm, to make it very unattractive to the little handicapped scooters, and parking is on the side of some country road.
Each has selected its venue.
They both play with radio.
One does WiFi, 2.4 GHZ, and the other the CB shootouts, 27 MHz, and they can burn out the little  scooters.
But, Dayton is home to a fleet of hundreds of the little scooter things, or so it would seem.
Abbie Hoffman would say "Never trust anyone over 30", and then he was over 30.
When it was clear it could no longer get the support of young people, he committed suicide.
Is the  Dayton Hamvention committing suicide by not addressing its ever aging population?

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on June 26, 2014, 10:32:32 AM
Hello.

DUDE! I am 100% with you on that!
The Dayton ham fest needs to be outdoors!
The problem is that hams stink!
Think about this, ham comes from what?!
And to cluster them all together indoors!
That is why I am thinking, how did they do Woodstock.
A few show trailers, a stage, perhaps ZZ Top and Willie Nelson on stage?
Dude, we could make ham radio popular again!
Some farmers field would be perfect!
Mix the Defcon bunch in, and it just might work, that is nothing but younger people.
Have a CB section with Amateur Radio related training available, explaining the differences.
GMRS to 2 meters training.
You get the idea.

Dude ...errr Good Buddy ...


  No thanks , it sounds too much like yourself and your own style .
  You should be right at home , inside Hara , in the restroom .
  After all , reading the description of your QTH , an indoor outhouse may seem somewhat novel to you .
  From what I saw at Dayton with the raw sewage in the parking lot , they may have at one time hired your plumber .
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 26, 2014, 08:01:18 PM
Hello.

The plumbing, although dated, does work here.
You can get a ground from any faucet.
The bathtub is that cast iron thing with feet.
The toilet was replaced with a low flow a while back.
Outdoor toilets do exist, just they are now portable.
They call them portable toilets, and they really do work!

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on June 27, 2014, 03:09:17 AM
  The D.A.R.A. people have turned  a deaf ear to criticism . They have been doing it for so long it has become a part of their culture .   There have beeen many suggestions given over the years , directly to the club "leaders" . D.A.R.A got a little too secure and set in their ways . They have pretty much taken the take it or leave it attitude . People are now responding in turn .

  The flea market are has become a virtual parking lot with an ever decreasing percentage of sellers . The buyers park inside sell nothing , cherry pick the real deals before the show opens ,  leaving the scraps to the general public .





  
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA5PIU on June 27, 2014, 04:15:59 AM
Hello.

The "sellers" at any flea market do this.
8 or 9 people get together, and rent a table so they can get in early.
If the flea market is open for vendors at 5 am, they will be there at 5 am, waiting.
I work 2 flea markets in San Antonio, and will be sold out even before the places open.
I have no problem with that, the table the bunch rented is loaned out to the local car club.
My venue goes to the CB club.
And, in order to get the 8 or 9 vendor passes they have to rent the entire weekend.
D.A. R. A. has it covered, and is making money.
In San Antonio, Traders Village opened, and is almost an amusement park to compete with the other flea markets.
I pay zero rent, as long as I do my fire breathing routine.
You may not like this, but, fancy cars, hot babes, and CB radio, that is what sells.
Most people go to the portable toilet, do their thing, and find something else to do.
There are nice toilets at most flea markets, not open to the public.
Look at what day and time I am posting.
In 30 minutes everything will be sold and I will be at the 24 hour burger joint until about 10 am.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on June 27, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
 The D.A.R.A. people have turned  a deaf ear to criticism . They have been doing it for so long it has become a part of their culture .   There have beeen many suggestions given over the years , directly to the club "leaders" . D.A.R.A got a little too secure and set in their ways . They have pretty much taken the take it or leave it attitude . People are now responding in turn .

  The flea market are has become a virtual parking lot with an ever decreasing percentage of sellers . The buyers park inside sell nothing , cherry pick the real deals before the show opens ,  leaving the scraps to the general public .

Yep, $75 is cheap to get an assigned parking space in the middle of a large event. Also saves a lot of time and wasted battery power for the electric wheelchair/scooter users.

And yes it was really nice to sell half my stuff on the first day before the gates opened to the public. But that is common at a lot of swapfests. The sellers always are making deals with each other before the gates are open.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on June 27, 2014, 07:58:28 AM
Minority anecdotes aside , there was a HUGE number of inside parkers who sold absolutely nothing , were perfectly ambulatory and simply went in early and  loaded up .
The people in those electric wheelchairs could save a lot of battery power if they didn't have to power past all the parked cars that were loaded before the flea market opened. Take away the parkers and you could travel half the distance to see the sales area .

  Yes , it happens at other outdoor hamfests but hardly noticeable for the most part . Dayton has to be the worst example .  The D.A.R.A. people are free to allow it but it also gives a strong dis-incentive to potential attendees , especially as the trend continues .   There are many reasons people are dropping Dayton from the bucket list , this is just one of them .

  At the Lansing , MI Radio Extravaganza there are no sales or swaps permitted before the event opens to the public . The participants agree .  A very well organized show and the dealers pretty well stick to that agreement .  


 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K6CPO on June 27, 2014, 12:06:52 PM
.........I have a theory.  If DARA were to move Hamvention to a newer, better facility it would impact their bottom line and it's obvious from their club building and communications van, they don't want that to happen..........
From the looks of their yearly IRS 990.  If they don't do something soon, they won't have any bottom line left.
Here's DARA's yearly Net Income as I see it:
2012: $45,403
2011: $86,948
2010: $182,108
2009: $128,174
2008: $172,976
It would appear that Hamvention is circling the drain. These are low years, if you look beyond what is listed here. These incomes are paltry compared to Hamvention's glory years....

That's still way more money than most clubs have.  In fact, it's likely there probably isn't another club in the country that has that kind of income.  

The only income my club has is from membership dues and we have less than 100 members.  Another club here regularly asks it's members for donations because it has less money than we do.  I know there are a lot of clubs that would be happy with a $45,000 annual income.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KYR on June 27, 2014, 03:52:08 PM
Minority anecdotes aside , there was a HUGE number of inside parkers who sold absolutely nothing , were perfectly ambulatory and simply went in early and  loaded up .
 Dayton has to be the worst example .  The D.A.R.A. people are free to allow it but it also gives a strong dis-incentive to potential attendees , especially as the trend continues .   There are many reasons people are dropping Dayton from the bucket list , this is just one of them .



 I realized after the second time I went to Dayton that the best deals (in the lot) were gone by the time that I got there. With that in mind I still go to Dayton but just to buy stuff like coax, connectors, solar panels, accessories and other ham related stuff.

There are no more screaming "show price" super deals inside the arena.  This year I think the FT 817 was selling for $620 . I remember when the "show price" was $499 a few years back.

The best deals have been "BUY IT NOW" on ebay.  Yet I still go back to Dayton every couple of years. Yes I was for the infamous sewer pipe 'event'. This year was the first time I can recall it sleeting not once, but twice not to mention a downpour or two. It was an experience nevertheless. I think all hams should go to Dayton at least once in their life.

.

.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KG8LB on June 28, 2014, 05:22:52 AM
 There have been a couple of  times when we headed to Dayton and wound up going to Mendelson's instead . Once we loaded up at Mendelson's we went to lunch and headed back home . Those were a couple of the best Dayton trips lately .
 Mendelson's is open year round and they keep the place in good shape . Parking is close and free , the buyer's cars are in the parking lot , not the sales area , functional restrooms and the inside is very clean . No smoke from smoldering scrap wood  burning rotting hog flesh and no raw sewage .  You can go inside for free . Best part is you don't have to deal with D.A.R.A. .

 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on June 30, 2014, 06:47:50 PM
There have been a couple of  times when we headed to Dayton and wound up going to Mendelson's instead . Once we loaded up at Mendelson's we went to lunch and headed back home . Those were a couple of the best Dayton trips lately .
 Mendelson's is open year round and they keep the place in good shape . Parking is close and free , the buyer's cars are in the parking lot , not the sales area , functional restrooms and the inside is very clean . No smoke from smoldering scrap wood  burning rotting hog flesh and no raw sewage .  You can go inside for free . Best part is you don't have to deal with D.A.R.A. .

 
A great old-format surplus store.  Most things not priced.  The Wire Department was most impressive.  Rows dedicated to each AWG size.

I'll be going back to Dayton to visit our daughter and her family.  One time to the Hamfest was good enough for me, but many more visits to Mendelson's are definitely on the agenda.  Then-again, I'm an old parts-junkie.

73.

Lee
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: SHORTWIRE on August 27, 2014, 10:22:16 PM
Glen and others.  I am not defending the facility.  I have been to Dayton many times (worked for NCR for 25 years)  I know the facility.  On the other hand, do you think the folks at D.A.R.A. do not know what the facility is like?  Do you think they haven't looked for others?  Do you think they wouldn't go somewhere else if it were feasible to do so?  I do understand what you are saying but there doesn't appear to be any feasible alternatives.  So unless someone has a solution to the issues, what positive can possible be served by the ongoing and continuing bitching about the facility? 

I go back to my original post. I challenge the arm chair quarterbacks (probably the ones who are riding around on the scooters) to put their fat butts to work finding a solution.  I have heard it said that Columbus and Cincinnati should be considered.  Maybe so, but for some reason D.A.R.A. has determined that it is not feasible to do so or maybe it is just a case in which they don't want to move it out of Dayton because they feel a tie to the community.  Whatever!  If Cincinnati or Columbus are great, then I challenge the clubs in those areas to put together a proposal and start negotiating with the ham vendors.  Let's get some competition going and take the convention away from Dayton.  After all, that is the American way, you know - build a better mouse trap or in this case, present a better convention proposal, and the world will beat a path to your door.

Put up or shut up!   

The Leftist Teacher Syndrome:

"If you can't do it better, don't blame others for doing it badly. Don't Question if it should be done at all"

"Don't blame your classmates for being retards, they are the same species as you!"

"I hope you have brought enough for everyone!"

This is not just the U.S. The public schools of my country have also been spoiled by this PC Pinky Inferiority Complex.. :-(
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GWK on August 29, 2014, 11:17:43 AM
The Leftist Teacher Syndrome:

"If you can't do it better, don't blame others for doing it badly. Don't Question if it should be done at all"

"Don't blame your classmates for being retards, they are the same species as you!"

"I hope you have brought enough for everyone!"

This is not just the U.S. The public schools of my country have also been spoiled by this PC Pinky Inferiority Complex.. :-(

Stay away from the drugs dude.....  >:(
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: MM0IMC on September 07, 2014, 11:24:36 AM
Legions of smelly obese hams on scooters....just the thing to show off America's premiere ham radio event to the world.  I saw one guy even try taking the hill (the shaded steep grassy area just outside the building) on his scooter.  He made it up 6 or so feet before his scooter protested the 450 pound load, and came tumbling back down.  He just laid on the pavement like a beached whale.  When the EMT pulled up in his Gator, he got out and stood over the beauty sprawled out and just asked: "alright Hoss, what's going on?"

Was that per a$$ cheek? :D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on December 12, 2014, 01:32:17 AM

And the beat goes on....

http://www.arrl.org/news/financial-woes-reported-at-dayton-hamvention-venue-hara-arena

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K6CPO on December 12, 2014, 10:28:31 AM

And the beat goes on....

http://www.arrl.org/news/financial-woes-reported-at-dayton-hamvention-venue-hara-arena

73

Having an outside company come in to manage (and possibly renovate) the Hara Arena might be a good thing, but I can see admission prices taking a sizable jump upwards.  The management company has to get their share...
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KD8MJR on December 12, 2014, 12:43:34 PM
Well after reading this thread, Dayton is off of my list of things to do.
If they do fix it up and it gets glowing reports after the next convention then I might reconsider, but for now I am not going to subject myself to the things that you guys have described.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K5TED on December 12, 2014, 09:24:33 PM
Why would anyone presume the Dayton Amateur Radio Association would consider to move their sponsored event out of Dayton for any reason?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on December 13, 2014, 03:07:25 AM
Why would anyone presume the Dayton Amateur Radio Association would consider to move their sponsored event out of Dayton for any reason?


Why would anyone consider the Hamvention to be a world class event when it is held in such a dump as Hara?
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on December 13, 2014, 01:37:02 PM
First and last for me since our daughter and family leave Dayton in March.  I'll really miss Mendelsons the most.

With $34M revenue and a staff of 12, at maybe $50K (generous) each, plenty of profit left after their taxes, insurance and utilities.

I don't like the League's spin, implying that the Wamplers are hurting for funds, when they clearly aren't.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W0TLC on December 21, 2014, 10:14:19 AM
It is a shame that the venue at Dayton has to be such a pig pen. I had the misfortune of attending Dayton while working for a manufacturer. I would never return to Hara.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KF7CG on December 23, 2014, 10:15:08 AM
One of the problems with Dayton is the love/hate relationship between the citizens of Trottwood (where the Hara actually is) and the Hamvention. It times of low tourist attraction attendance they hate the Hams and love their money. When economics are better, they don't even want the money.

Columbus wouldn't be much better, some of the suburbs and the suburbs are generally where the venues with good space for flea markets and large amounts of reasonable parking are fount, don't even allow their citizens to leave their garage doors open or have basket ball goals on their homes.

Ham looks a little "Redneck" for some of that area, they don't want to be reminded that they were once cow tons or Air Force communities. I lived for about 5 years half way between Dayton and Columbus. I wouldn't give you a quarter for Columbus and its burbs, maybe a buck for Dayton.

History is history, and their is (was) a large tech community so I guess it stays. Finding a venue will be a problem. Maybe the state fair ground in Columbus, but I don't know what the welcome would be.

KF7CG
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GRG on December 29, 2014, 10:00:05 PM
There are alternatives, and they need to examined.

If you would like to see a better venue for the Dayton Hamvention, please sign this online petition. Whether it's by improving the current venue, or moving to a better one, is up to the sponsor. The attendees and exhibitors deserve a venue that's adequate for the event. Don't need a Taj Mahal, just a place that is clean, with enough room, enough food, enough ventilation, enough proper restrooms, and enough parking.

Please pass this on to your friends.

 http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/fix-the-arena-or-move-the-dayton-hamvention
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8JX on December 30, 2014, 05:15:14 AM
There are alternatives, and they need to examined.

If you would like to see a better venue for the Dayton Hamvention, please sign this online petition. Whether it's by improving the current venue, or moving to a better one, is up to the sponsor. The attendees and exhibitors deserve a venue that's adequate for the event. Don't need a Taj Mahal, just a place that is clean, with enough room, enough food, enough ventilation, enough proper restrooms, and enough parking.

Please pass this on to your friends.

 http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/fix-the-arena-or-move-the-dayton-hamvention

It is a wasted effort. There are no other facilities in Dayton area. Wampler's (owner of hara) and DARA are locked till death of one of them through politics too. In past DARA would sign 5 year contracts for HARA so it was money in bank for Wamplers. If it would move to Columbus fair grounds there would be room to spare and all would be indoor too but that not likely going to happen. Years ago they looked at Dayton Expo center near airport but FAA did not want RF over there. Once again as I said before, Dayton show will die one day at current site if it does not reinvent itself and move to another location, the only question is when it will die. It needs to remove Dayton from hamvention name and focus on moving show and cutting ties to Dayton which is chocking it.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GRG on December 30, 2014, 06:16:19 AM
Your post is a wasted effort if you're the only one saying it, and if DARA doesn't hear it. However, you are on target, and DARA needs to hear it loud and clear, thus the attempt to reach them with a concerted effort.

Just getting them to publicly acknowledge the issue and either defend what they are doing, or show plans for change in the future, would be worth the minimal effort it takes to sign the petition.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on December 30, 2014, 07:10:24 AM
I am SURE DARA is fully aware of the discontent out there about HARA Arena's dilapidated condition.  As a former Dayton resident (1966-70 and 1973-1983) AND a former member of DARA, I know they have looked and numerous other locations for the HAMvention going back many years.  BUT the FACTS are...There is NO suitable place for it in the Dayton area.  I guarantee that no ONE location (U.D. Arena, The Nutter Center, The Downtown Convention Center, etc.) can handle a show the size of the HAMvention.  Yes, maybe a multi-site venue could work, but the transportation costs to "connect" it all would be astronomical.  Yes, I could see parking at the UD campus;  The flea market and more parking at UD Arena; Inside Vendors at the Convention Center downtown, ......   Can you imagine the traffic mess not to mention the INCREASED costs involved.  Actually, I Don't think this could possibly work, either!

For all of you wishing & hoping for the demise of the DAYTON HAMvention, just stay home!!! 

If enough of you do that, it will fail!  Simple!

Or...Here's an option for all the complainers.....Just start your own version of "HAMvention" at the venue of YOUR choosing!!!

For me?  I'll be in Dayton next May....even in a dilapidated HARA Arena! 

Tom, KR4BD
Lexinton, KY
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on December 30, 2014, 07:25:05 AM
I don't think most want the demise of the Hamvention, just the location.

And yes, I stopped going after the sewer eruption. And I will not go back until conditions substantially improve.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on December 30, 2014, 07:37:30 AM
I WAS there for the sewer eruption.  That was SEVERAL years ago.  Everyone survived!  An event like that could happen ANYWHERE...even in your own front yard!  It was not caused by HARA Arena.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on December 30, 2014, 07:52:31 AM
I WAS there for the sewer eruption.  That was SEVERAL years ago.  Everyone survived!  An event like that could happen ANYWHERE...even in your own front yard!  It was not caused by HARA Arena.

So was I. However it was a visual reminder of the aging infrastructure that is not being updated or even well maintained which is the fault of the owners of HARA. And where did the sewage come from? And are you sure the lateral that connects HARA to the sewer mains is publically owned? Many are installed by the developer and need to be maintained by the owner.

And it can't happen in MY front yard. I am on a private sewer located in my back yard. There is no public sewer system here in my small town. Just a note that not all things are the same for all people and should not be categorized as such.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GRG on December 30, 2014, 10:23:43 AM
I want it to succeed, and it isn't going to get any bigger in an already overcrowded venue.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GRG on December 30, 2014, 07:09:31 PM
http://www.cincyusa.com/sharonville-convention-center/

Here's a modern facility of a size that's able to handle the event and more. Book 250 hotel rooms in connection with the event, and meeting space is free.

Offer details:   http://www.cincyusa.com/north/incentive

For those who will complain that it's not in Dayton so DARA volunteers will have hardships: Compromise and Collaborate. Get volunteers from the Cincy area. There are a lot of great people who live there. If it means sharing a bit of the glory, take the hit and share the glory. if it means re-framing the sponsoring setup, find a way to meet the needs of your customers. Hara is not sustainable, so take a look at what else can work.

I'm sure that there are many other, better options. If I can find this in a single google search, others can do much better.

Distance isn't that much of a factor in shows like this for the sponsors, as you're only in the venue for a few days. Setup, during, and takedown. But you're not there all year-- it's a shared venue. Yes, travel is a hassle, but meeting the needs of attendees is always a hassle. By expanding, or affiliating with other groups in the region, you get more volunteers.
 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: G6GIY on December 31, 2014, 04:52:53 AM
I have made the trip from the UK for 5 or 6 Dayton Hamventions but I will not be going in 2015.
The Hara Arena is just awful with no public parking on site. One thing I noticed last year was the lack of traders in the Flea Market, I suspect many spaces were taken by folks that wanted a parking slot on site and early access to the "bargains".
This show is the worlds biggest in a great country and deserves to be at a great venue.   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KYR on December 31, 2014, 05:18:43 AM
http://www.cincyusa.com/sharonville-convention-center/

Here's a modern facility of a size that's able to handle the event and more. Book 250 hotel rooms in connection with the event, and meeting space is free.

Sharonville would be closer, it is a bit over 1/2 hr from here. But what about the outdoor vendors, stations and antennas and the flea market part? If the parking lot is closed off for the outdoor vendors. We are back to the parking problem.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on December 31, 2014, 06:14:24 AM
The Sharonville Convention Center is a nice, modern facility for events MUCH smaller than HAMvention.  I've been there MANY TIMES for various events.  Parking for vendors would take up ALL of the parking lot around it (and probably then-some!).  And, I doubt the inside, even with the expansion (which is cut up into mostly smaller rooms) could handle as many dealers as Hara Arena does.  Additionally, there is no other large parking for visitors nearby.  Remember, HARA Arena and HAMvention have the large Salem Mall lot a mile away connected by continuous busses.  And, my opinion of MOST of the hotels in the Sharonville area, from experience, is mostly NEGATIVE.  

AND...Where would you put the Flea Market??? 

Could some Cincinnati hams familiar with BOTH facilities back me up on this?

Tom, KR4BD
Lexington, KY

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8JX on December 31, 2014, 08:13:31 AM
Your post is a wasted effort if you're the only one saying it, and if DARA doesn't hear it. However, you are on target, and DARA needs to hear it loud and clear, thus the attempt to reach them with a concerted effort.

DARA is in a state of denial and thinks its future is bright at HARA. There is a lot of politics involved too. Several years ago DARA spent about a 1/4 million repaving part of HARA's parking lot because HARA claimed busses damaged it and DARA folded. Never mind place is old and lot was in poor shape at time. DARA was worried about loosing HARA. It nearly took a act of god and several years to move it from April to May some time back.  Some have also complained about how DARA draws tickets because they grab a large handful and use it for a half hour or more rather that one at a time with constant stirs for a truly random drawing.because it is easier and they have been doing it for many years and choke on change. If your in handful you lucky otherwise it is game over for other 1000's of tickets.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WA2ISE on December 31, 2014, 11:52:40 AM
I WAS there for the sewer eruption. 

Well, the QRM on 14.313 had to go somewheres when 20M went dead...   ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KYR on December 31, 2014, 03:22:40 PM
I was there for the sewer eruption too. The main bathrooms inside the Hara Arena were shut down because of the sewer leak. I think the smaller bathrooms off to the side were still open.

Regarding Sharonville. I been there too, but like I said earlier it won't work because the outdoor vendors would need the parking space.

What wouldwork though is if you can find large enough county fairgrounds next to a facility like Sharonville. Then you can still have the outdoor vendors, parking and an indoor facility. I been to the Hamilton County (Cincinnati) fairgrounds and they are too small for something like a Dayton Hamfest.

Perhaps someone who lives near Dayton can tell us if there are any suitable County Fairgrounds which has large buildings and/or are next to some large convention type center. Maybe something like this can be doable.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K2GRG on December 31, 2014, 08:18:22 PM
Hara's not a big fan of the Hamvention either. In a nutshell: We used to have the Rolling Stones, and now all we have are a bunch of hams and library books.

DAYTON — The Hara Arena in a suburb of Dayton is drawing smaller crowds, but efforts are underway to revitalize the half-century-old facility.

Karen Wampler, Hara’s director of marketing and a member of the family that built the facility, said there is a move to restructure ownership in the hopes of a long-needed renovation.

Hara was the site of 239 events last year, she said, and it had an economic impact worth tens of millions of dollars.

But instead of major rock concerts and popular sporting events, its most popular events included a gathering of ham-radio enthusiasts and a library book sale.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/12/29/dayton-area-arena-seeking-renovations.html
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8CWM on February 26, 2015, 05:03:21 PM
I spent a while reading the last few years of posts regarding Hara Arena and DARA And I feel that most of the dissenters have no idea what it really takes to put on a show/ convention/event the size of the Dayton Hamfest. As far as the restrooms go yes they are old but is part of the problem the people using them. When they make a mess do they wipe it up or leave it for the next guy (trying to keep this polite) if pigs use the facility then it becomes a pig pen. I think we need to consider the community support such as off site parking and bus service. The number of hotels and restaurants needed to take care of 25,000 or more people plus the wives and children that come to town but don't go to the show. The total number of volunteers required  to attempt to control such a crowd and try to insure that everyone has an enjoyable experience. This is not a one month planning thing, but a year long project that requires many meetings,calls,and lost sleep to put together. as far as parking lots go yes it could stand repaving without a doubt and if we all agreed to pay a much higher admission  price then the lot could be resurfaced, Did you ever price having your own driveway redone. I believe that DARA is trying to put on the best meet at the most reasonable price possible so more people can afford to attend. As far as some of the big beautiful places around the country if we dig into the past we find things like when the NSRA was at Louisville expo center and a freak rain came up and the parking lot flooded submerging outdoor vendors, show cars, and people  in 4 or 5 foot of water. STUFF HAPPENS beyond control at times, get over it. In closing I think even if the Hara facility is old, many of us attend and have a blast. We need to go and enjoy what is there now because someday we may not have the opportunity.   This is where many new products are show cased for us to see without it where would you have that experience.

Possibly we should all agree to pay five hundred dollars for a ticket each year in advance so there would be money to make the changes we desire and yes I think it should be held within walking distance of my house so it would be cheaper to attend but I don't want the mess in my yard.
This has just been food for thought life is a compromise.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on February 26, 2015, 07:35:13 PM
I disagree. Our local county fair grounds have better facilities for farm animals then what Hara brings to the show. Matter of fact, part of the facilities are where we have our local hamfest. You walk in and you would never know that it is used for animal shows and auctions during the year. The difference being that the local facility here is maintained to a higher standard then Hara.

It is not our fault Hara is a dump. So why should we pay extra to line the owners pockets? They obviously have been skimming off the top instead of keeping the facility in good repair. And now they plead lack of money to even keep it from getting worse (if that is possible). Had they kept up with maintenance over the years, it would still be a fine facility that it was years ago.


Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8CWM on February 26, 2015, 09:27:16 PM
The extra money was a bit of humor, designed to provide open minded people food for thought. DARA has done everything possible to try to keep the Hamvention as reasonable as possible for all of us to enjoy. If you have such an excellent location at your fairgrounds why don't you create an event to replace Dayton  The point I was trying to make is unless you plan to come up with some thing better then, be glad that many years ago a group of hams started the Dayton Hamvention and have kept it going all this time instead of complaining we should be praising these people because they did it and continue to do it when many of us run our mouths but don't do anything but complain. I don't think Hara is the most beautiful place i have ever seen BUT it is by far better than nothing. All of the whining and complaining just gets to me. I am not trying to make anyone mad, I am just saying thank God for the many volunteers that help to give us the largest and best Hamvention we have. Also as far  as Hara goes it is owned privately and I would question if the family has the capital to completely remodel the facility. I understand that they are trying to come up with a plan to improve it but all it takes is money.  All of this discussion may be in vain anyway because one of these days Hara may go the way of may other places and fall victim to the bulldozers as the area grows and more industry moves in needing land to expend on...... Progress
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC2QYM on February 27, 2015, 07:17:24 AM
THe shoddy Hamvention site and facilities simply reflect the state of amateur radio in general.  When you try to put lipstick on a pig...well it's still just a pig.  I think the Europeans exhbit such a higher regard for ham radio when you compare Friedrichshafen to Dayton.  Dayton in my opinion is just a big flea market that just happens to have an exhibition.  Friedrichshafen is an exhibition.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8CWM on February 27, 2015, 07:29:48 AM
The problem is many of us can't afford to go to Friedrichshafen. I am very happy for those that can but I am also grateful to have the Dayton Hamvention available for me. No one is trying to say that Hara is the best place in the world, it is like many of us hams, getting old but still useful.  I am very thankful for the people that support Dayton Hamvention as it provides a place for the average guy to get to see some of the latest high tech plus a little history while having the opportunity to maybe put a face to a call sign.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on February 27, 2015, 02:53:40 PM
KD8ZGW, Charles, I can't help wondering if your support for the Hamvention venue is due to the fact that the Hara is 4 1/2 miles from your house.  My drive is 800 miles and 4 vacations days from work.  There are many of us that go to great lengths to attend Hamvention.  I actually don't blame you.  If it was in walking distance from my house, I think we'd all look the other way regarding the condition of the Hara.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W2EM on February 27, 2015, 07:27:37 PM
The worse thing about Dayton is getting run over by the multitude of crazy driving overweight people on scooters.   
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on February 28, 2015, 02:32:51 AM
The worse thing about Dayton is getting run over by the multitude of crazy driving overweight people on scooters.   

Next time I will aim for you!  ;)
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KYR on February 28, 2015, 02:42:16 AM
Quote
Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?

Because Dayton is a bit over an hour from here and there are no other hamfests that I am aware of around here. 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC2QYM on March 02, 2015, 09:38:26 AM
Yes, you need shin guards to avoid getting skinned by those heavy weights on wheels.  You know some of them purposely go fast to make you get out of the way.  You have to carry gravel and throw it down behind you...that slows them down.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on March 02, 2015, 10:15:22 AM
Time to line em up like a fighter squadron and make a clean sweep of the isle!  ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N9AOP on March 02, 2015, 11:11:15 AM
That dump must give them a hell of a price for the event otherwise they would find a nice venue
in Columbus or Indy.
Art
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8CWM on March 04, 2015, 04:53:51 PM
K3GM Tom  It is not because it is close, it is because I realize the time and effort it takes to put something on the size  of the Dayton Hamvention.  I am very much aware that Hara Arena is old and privately owned by people who can't afford to remodel it because of all the competition from goverment owned arenas that attract most of the concert business where a 3 hour show cost 50 to 100 bucks. The problem is those locations can't handle 25,000 people let alone the parking for the vehicles.  I believe that if a person really wants to visit a piece of radio history they should plan to get to Dayton in the near future even if the location is getting old, because it may not be here forever. I also seriously doubt that if DARA stops putting on the Hamvention if anyplace else will duplicate it in a modern facility. The time and effort involved to do it plus the capital risk would stop most organizations. I can't think of any place to move it that wouldn't cause the price to attend to skyrocket out of this world in the tri state area. I have put together two national shows for other organizations in the past four years on a much smaller scale than the Hamvention and believe me it is becoming harder each year, even with the help of the local goverments which is getting hard to aquire because of tight budgets and civil libilities they fear. One organization I belong to has switched to multiple smaller conventions but they have discovered that vendors won't come for a small show. The world is changing fast, most things come down to dollars and cents and lack there of.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on March 07, 2015, 12:23:30 PM
Do you what I find curious about this thread?.... As I write this, there have been 250 posts to this thread and a over a quarter million views; amazing! Yet there hasn't been one response from a DARA representative to respond to comments, to offer a rebuttal, to refute a claim, or to offer hope for the future of Hanvention.  I find that interesting.  It would seem that DARA members must take a blood oath never to comment on discussions of this subject.  There are scores of amateurs who want change.  Instead of all the speculating, an explanation  from a DARA representative, a statement of any kind would be welcome.  People care.  250,000 views; a quarter million occasions we've stopped here to read the latest comment.  Yet not a peep from a DARA spokesperson, or even a disgruntled former club member.  Curious.....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WI8P on March 08, 2015, 03:16:23 AM
Do you what I find curious about this thread?.... As I write this, there have been 250 posts to this thread and a over a quarter million views; amazing! Yet there hasn't been one response from a DARA representative to respond to comments, to offer a rebuttal, to refute a claim, or to offer hope for the future of Hanvention.  I find that interesting.  It would seem that DARA members must take a blood oath never to comment on discussions of this subject.  There are scores of amateurs who want change.  Instead of all the speculating, an explanation  from a DARA representative, a statement of any kind would be welcome.  People care.  250,000 views; a quarter million occasions we've stopped here to read the latest comment.  Yet not a peep from a DARA spokesperson, or even a disgruntled former club member.  Curious.....

I would be amazed if they did respond.  It would be a no win situation for them. Nothing they could say would make people happy, so they are better off just staying mum.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9YW on March 08, 2015, 07:35:49 AM
Caveat: I have been a volunteer at Dayton Hamvention.... I am a member of DARA but DO NOT REPRESENT THEM IN THIS REPLY and with that said:

Although some of us aspire to great heights, we are a fun, rag-tag bunch of geeks, nerds, rag-chewers, solder jockeys, horse-traders, engineers with attitudes, and more. What's great about Hamvention for me, is the no-attitude commeraderie, humor, fun, diversity, and row after row of curious stuff, junk, usable maybes, hot deals, total recycling material, every connector ever conceived, every tube, transistor, derelict in need of love, endless piles of crap, and every ex-military insanity ever conceived in radio.

If you want a shopping center, go some place else. If you want beauty, put on some lipstick and look in a mirror. If you need the mall experience, go online. I drive only 100mi to get there. Joined DARA because they're thinkers and emblematic of an inclusive club of do-gooders, thinkers, radio geeks, and represent a great diverse contingent of hams. I re-upped at an ARRL Tech Test, then within a few months, tested to Extra, a few years ago after getting my Novice in the '60s, but went there several times over the years to horse trade computer gear. Now I have more time for the hobby. I don't live and breathe radio; I'm only mildly OCD about it.

Like many others, I'm a tinker, a maker, and like to have fun in radio. For me, ugly as the Hara is, I want the flea market-ish atmosphere, and would never, in a million years, think of wearing a tie to such an event. Instead, I go there eagerly, with a list of needed stuff and the price I want to pay, and know full-well that I'll leave with stuff I had no idea that I needed. Some of that stuff will be horse-traded, repaired, and sadly, recycled. And I like it.

Summary: It is what it is, I like it, don't feel the need to defend it, truly enjoy the atmosphere and seeing old friends, old gear, new gear, and kvetching with the sages and seriously bent operators I meet there. I personally don't think that DARA needs to defend anything; it would be nice if a less decrepit facility could be found, but it's serviceable-- much like my old Heathkit radios. Hams are among the most cost-conscious people I know, and a more expensive facility might cause them to balk with ticket overhead price increases. I'll likely be volunteering again if they'll let me, and I'll be having a helluva time. You can, too. Save the lipstick.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KC9QQM on March 11, 2015, 08:49:08 AM
I also find it interesting that this thread keeps popping up year after year.

While not a vetern Dayton Hamfester, this will be my third year so I have over all got the feel for the experience so I comment based on that and that alone.

There are some things having to do with the buildings themselves that could be addressed (bathrooms upkeep, ventilation, etc.) I find it hard to give revelence to all the grumbling and complaining. It is a flea market for goodness sake! What is the expectation? I have been to a few hamfests in my home state of illinois that were so puny it took all of an hour to go through it all. But I still went. So when I go to a hamfest of this size, I am prepared for crowding, some rude people, adverse weather conditions and everything inbetween. That is the FUN of it! In the 2 years I have been, the first was pretty hot, rained on all of us and since I tent camp, it was interesting, the very next year, it was freezing, slept in the back of my truck and was glad I brought 2 coats and long underwear! But I still came.

So for those coming this year, let's go with the right expectation of what this is, what it is for and have some fun. Buy some junk, meet new folks and enjoy the experience! If you are coming to find fault, take a break for the year.

And yes, I have had enough camping so this year, I am staying at a hotel!!

Jeff
KC9QQM
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8PFZ on March 12, 2015, 06:47:36 PM
My biggest complaint is having to park across the street. Can they eliminate the empty vendor spots, consolidate the flea market and let everyone park in the arena lot? That would make buying heavy purchases a lot less painful.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KR4BD on March 13, 2015, 07:58:50 AM
My biggest complaint is having to park across the street. Can they eliminate the empty vendor spots, consolidate the flea market and let everyone park in the arena lot? That would make buying heavy purchases a lot less painful.

HAMvention offers a merchandise pickup area, right at the arena complex, where you take your heavy purchases, get a vehicle pass, then bring your car in to get the items.  That sure beats lugging your newly acquired boatanchors several blocks or on the busses.  As for parking, I have found the remote lot at the ex-Salem Mall is the most convenient way, and least congested way to come and go to the Hara Facility.  This sure beats parking across the street in the (possibly muddy) fields.  If it rains, and you get stuck there, you are at the mercy of expensive tow trucks to extricate your vehicle!  I've seen it happen! 

Tom, KR4BD
Attending HAMvention since 1975
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KA7RRA on March 14, 2015, 04:48:09 AM
You can get a 3 day bus pass and park at the Salem parking lot  it is cheap and easy ( the just way I like it ) plenty of parking and no mud.  I parked once or twice at the muddy lot across the street,and it was not fun  that was back when they used to have the event in April
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8AUC on March 15, 2015, 04:29:38 PM
Getting the bus pass and parking at Salem Mall is definitely the way to go.
The parking at the mall is free, and if I remember right, a bus pass good for
unlimited shuttle trips to and from the arena for the entire hamvention is $8.
Buses are air conditioned, and run very every few minutes.
They also pull right in to the arena lot to drop you off only a few steps from the front door.
When you return to the mall parking, there are people driving golf carts to take
you right to your car if you want.

In comparison, parking in the muddy field, and trying to walk across that busy road
seems insane by comparison.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8PFZ on March 21, 2015, 09:51:51 AM
Why should we be talking about ways to solve the parking problem when all they need to do is restructure the swap area.  Good Grief.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: G6GIY on March 23, 2015, 09:08:40 AM
I think they should take a close look at the flea market area . I am convinced that several "traders" are using it as a car park for the 3 days. It is like getting a VIP ticket for the show for 3 days,free parking and no waiting for jobs worths to open the show at 8am.
  So buy a ticket for the bus $8 and $25 for the show or buy a spot on the flea market for $70 and sell $30 worth of junk and get access to all the bargains while the punters are in a line outside.    
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on March 23, 2015, 10:19:56 AM
I don't think anyone would argue with you there, Phil.  Three of us friends have been tailgating there for over a decade. In the years gone by where you got the same space year after year, we'd have the same SUV parked next to us every year where we'd see the guy maybe a couple times a day. When we first started attending Hamvention, we'd ride the bus, then we moved to the field across the road, then we got the bright idea to split the cost of a fleamarket spot.  Doing that once sold us on the idea.  We'd take turns throughout the days minding our table with the truck parked behind it.  But even I'll admit there were times when no one would be minding the store and we were all out shopping.  A tailgate space is great provided you have the entire day to stay in the lot.  You can drop stuff off, have lunch, take a nap with the seat down, or just sit in a folding chair and watch the Hamvention sights go by.  There are years when I've sold enough of my cast-off gear to underwrite a new HF radio.  Then there are years when I may bring just a couple of amateur radio related tchotchkes to justify my presence in the lot.  That's just the way it is.

Years ago, there was a waiting list for a fleamarket spot.  Back then, a space being used for only parking might have frowned upon.  But as time has gone by, the flea market sellers have slowly dwindled, and revenue has declined.  I'm sure that now, DARA really doesn't care what the space is being used for; a buck is a buck.  Almost half the lot now sits empty. That could be used for "premium parking" and pre-sold ahead of the Hamvention at the same price as a flea market space.  Then the actual sellers could be moved onto the eastern half of the lot behind the buildings, and those that use the flea market as a great parking space could come clean and be moved to the western half, the half that now for the most part sits vacant.  To me is seems like a win/win.

I might be going out on a limb here, but as I walked around the lot in recent years, there are fewer and fewer finds and more and more junk.  The Drake R4C in pristine condition that I longed for a decade ago, but could never seem to make a deal on can now be found in a dozen spots, and to me is now just an old radio.  Having the truck in the lot enables me to look for big things like a half disassembled HF yagi, or spools of Heliax that have sat on a trailer all weekend, and whose owner is about to schlep them back home. Most of the time they'll part with it for a small percentage of what they were originally asking for it.  So using the fleamarket as a primo parking space at one time might have been a dirty little secret, but looking around now, that's no longer the case.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8PFZ on March 23, 2015, 05:28:54 PM
Amen
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W8ATA on March 29, 2015, 11:46:23 AM
Because I'm only 80 years young!!! ;D

73, Russ
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8PRG on March 31, 2015, 06:58:04 AM
My 13 yr. old grandson and I are both new hams. We're going down there on a bus full of others who have been going for years, and all share the same enthusiasm for the event.
We're really looking forward to it
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: HR2510 on April 13, 2015, 09:35:49 AM
I've got to admit it's been a dream to attend the Hamvention since I was a kid.  This after 40 plus years as a ham since the eighth grade.  But is it worth the 2400 mile drive from the PNW?   I can't see taking a plane since I'm a flea market junkie and hauling back goodies through TSA is definitely not worth it.  An RV is certainly the way to go for me.  The wife says GO! She wants to go for other sites in the Ohio area and is willing to RV babysit while I roam around the show.  

But looking at the video's on Youtube show a dismal flea market in 2014 and the arena doesn't have that much of interest I can't see on the internet.  The ham swaps I normally attend in Washington and Oregon are wall to wall people elbowing their way to the goodies.  The local hamfests I attend are very much alive and well!  

I read in this thread about the flea market being used for a parking lot with nobody at the vehicles etc.  The video's of the flea market show a few people wandering around, but they look like they were taken about an hour before closing on a Sunday.  This might be fine for locals.  Maybe even those within a state or two to make the drive.  But across 2/3's across the US is a lot of driving for a mediocre event.

Is it really worth it anymore?  Especially to those of us on the west coast?


 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N1GNV on April 15, 2015, 03:51:27 PM
The video's of the flea market show a few people wandering around, but they look like they were taken about an hour before closing on a Sunday.  This might be fine for locals.  Maybe even those within a state or two to make the drive.  But across 2/3's across the US is a lot of driving for a mediocre event.

Is it really worth it anymore?  Especially to those of us on the west coast?


 

A mediocre event?  Dayton?  Sorry, no.  Love it or hate it, it's huge.  Something like 25,000 Hams attend.  It's by far the biggest show in the US.  It can easily take you all three days just to see everything.  Is the Flea Market as big as it used to be?  Probably not.  Thank the Internet (e-Bay and similar) for that.  Is it still the biggest?  Yep.  And if the WX is good, believe me, the flea market will be quite busy indeed.

And the inside exhibits?  Just about every commercial manufacturer/vendor will be there.  ~~500 booths, ~~250 vendors.  Is it really worth it?  You betcha!
Full disclosure -- I'm a commercial vendor and will have 8 booths indoors packed with Ham Radio Goodies and Gadgets.  Booths 462-463-464-465-469-470-471-472 in the Ball Arena.  Please stop by and say hello!

Thanks and 73,
John Bee N1GNV
Quicksilver Radio
http://www.qsradio.com

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: HR2510 on April 16, 2015, 06:52:33 PM
Thanks John!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AB2IH on May 12, 2015, 05:27:34 PM
2015 will be my first Dayton Hamvention and am hoping for the best, maybe find boat anchor parts, or meet someone famous.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KD8TUT on May 13, 2015, 10:18:53 AM
Gosh I've read this whole thread.. wow. These will be unfiltered comments :)

Well I'm just about to head out to Dayton in the morning for my first visit ever. And reading the criticisms, I can't help but remember that the hamfests and flea markets my dad took me to when I was a kid were really quite marginal events.

Really. Old drive in theaters, county fairgrounds, Maxwell St. (Former Chicagoan), 7 Mile Fair, the dilapidated back lot of the then corporate headquarters of Bell and Howell. I mean these places were seedy, marginal, and ham gear was everywhere.

For me at least those events had charm. And if ham radio events in general became some kind of catered corporate crapfest- it would ruin the hobby for me. I get enough of that in corporate life. Seriously... have you ever spent a couple of days at CES or COMDEX? Talk about polished feces.

No... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

I admit it. I like it that way.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 13, 2015, 03:22:37 PM
... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

Then you're gonna love  this place.  I guarantee it.....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KD8TUT on May 14, 2015, 05:22:19 PM
... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

Then you're gonna love  this place.  I guarantee it.....

You are so totally right. Got to walk the flea market for a while at about 4pm. This place has character.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8PRG on May 17, 2015, 04:15:46 AM
I went to my first Hamvention yesterday. I was told I wouldn't be able to thoroughly cover the whole deal in one day so my visit was pretty much a walk-through. However, I did manage to pick up those items on my must-have list.
I had a good time and I was impressed with how well such a huge event seems to be managed.
To me it was a great experience and I'll look forward to going back.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 21, 2015, 05:43:47 AM

No... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

I admit it. I like it that way.

Interesting how this thread always circles back to how hams don't want or deserve a better place...  (If I were in school, this would make a great subject for a thesis!)

73  ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 21, 2015, 10:05:22 AM
Did anybody see the "artist rendering" of the planned renovations at the entrance to the Silver Ballroom (or whatever they call that part of the dump)?  From the looks of it , once completed they can rename it to The Peoples Red Army Arena. 50's kitsch.....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K3GM on May 21, 2015, 10:19:40 AM
In case you missed it, feast your eyes on this, comrade....
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a96/TwoSevenRight/34bef17a-81e6-4109-ba77-de1d24abce8a_zpsy6fexxz2.jpg)

A lot of thought went into that....
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KD8TUT on May 24, 2015, 10:50:58 AM

No... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

I admit it. I like it that way.

Interesting how this thread always circles back to how hams don't want or deserve a better place...  (If I were in school, this would make a great subject for a thesis!)

73  ;D

It's tradition and continuity. Not the undeserving ham.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on May 24, 2015, 04:36:20 PM

No... I'd rather be at a dilapidated arena. Really. Gimme a bunch of gray haired old hams. I'll take the parking lot with a screwed up flea market.

I admit it. I like it that way.

Interesting how this thread always circles back to how hams don't want or deserve a better place...  (If I were in school, this would make a great subject for a thesis!)

73  ;D

It's tradition and continuity. Not the undeserving ham.

I think you hit the nail!  Good night and good luck...

73   :-\
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: HAMMYGUY on May 27, 2015, 08:11:55 AM
I finally made the trek from the PNW to Dayton this year.  I definitely enjoyed the huge flea market and large amount of vendors.  While I hit a snow storm in Wyoming closing down I80 and the wind was nothing short of horrendous driving a small RV through most of the plains states, I'd probably do it again.  Yes the facilities are old and the parking lot certainly needs resurfacing.  The amount of organizing to put this on was amazing and the club deserves a big thank you! 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8MW on July 03, 2015, 11:39:38 AM
Try Orlando as an alternative to Dayton.  Great venue with lots of space, parking close to the fest, plenty of attendees.  Growing bigger every year with excellent weather during the winter months.  More hams moving to Florida every day.  If you go to Orlando you will think twice about going to Dayton.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WI8P on July 03, 2015, 02:54:39 PM
Try Orlando as an alternative to Dayton.  Great venue with lots of space, parking close to the fest, plenty of attendees.  Growing bigger every year with excellent weather during the winter months.  More hams moving to Florida every day.  If you go to Orlando you will think twice about going to Dayton.

Dayton = 241 miles.
Orlando = 1183 miles.

Nah, I'm not thinking twice about it.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WA2ISE on July 03, 2015, 03:46:44 PM

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a96/TwoSevenRight/34bef17a-81e6-4109-ba77-de1d24abce8a_zpsy6fexxz2.jpg)



Looks like a 1950's era bowling alley...  ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WS3N on July 03, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
In the Soviet Union.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W4KVW on July 03, 2015, 10:10:44 PM
Try Orlando as an alternative to Dayton. Great venue with lots of space, parking close to the fest, plenty of attendees.  Growing bigger every year with excellent weather during the winter months.  More hams moving to Florida every day.  If you go to Orlando you will think twice about going to Dayton.

I go to Orlando every year since 1993 & have been to Dayton once in 2013 & given a choice I'll take Dayton any day.10 times the number of tailgate spaces & much more space inside the Arena for lots more than Orlando has ever offered.It's much closer to Orlando for me since I live in North Florida but if you can't find what you are looking for at Dayton it just may not exist.Hotel rates were higher than Orlando but Dayton is a much smaller place with much fewer choices as well.I love Orlando Hamcation but Dayton Hamvention is the BIG SHOW in North America hands down.  ;D

Clayton
W4KVW
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: G3RZP on July 04, 2015, 04:48:55 AM
I guess DARA have got the organisation and the volunteers and have relatively few unknowns to suddenly be a 'gotcha'. Plus those people live in the vicinity. Moving it elsewhere would mean having to get new volunteers, most of them without any experience. In 2014, there were 53 volunteers as Chairman and Vice Chairman for the various Hamvention committees......not mentioning the committee members.

That's bigger than some ham clubs.....

 
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K9MHZ on July 10, 2015, 03:05:02 AM
Yeah, the event itself is actually very well run.  Sounds like the building's condition (and taxes due) has literally hit a breaking point and something must be done, or a tough location decision will need to be made.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8FOZ on July 20, 2015, 08:47:01 PM
There's no reason for DARA to rearrange parking.  If you really gotta park on the grounds, buy a flea spot & do so. They are available on the grounds at the Golf Pro shop. Do note that Trotwood Fire Dept is full of rules. You must be parked in the Market before opening, and remain until closing.

The Salem bus is a good deal. (I always wondered why MVRTA never joined their two electric bus lines, the ones up Rt 48 & the one up Rt 49, together along Shiloh Springs.)  If I didn't have a spot (w/7 others) I'd use it.

Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KF7CG on July 21, 2015, 10:25:24 AM
I moved away from the area before the latest round of problems. But as I remember my trips to Dayton in the late 90's and early 2000's, the city of Trotwood always had a love/hate relationship with the Dayton Hamvention. They loved the extra money but hated the gathering. One year they were even complaining that the Hamvention's money wasn't worth the disruption it caused. They didn't like the Hara even when it was newer too.

That property tried to improve and expand in the past and the plans were totally rejected by the local planning boards, so any real improvement to the location was abandoned and minimal maintenance performed.

Anybody up for a Nashville area hamfest if one of the local clubs can find a suitable venue and generate a solid organization to keep it going. We have a long way to go yet, finding a reasonable location and building an organization are daunting tasks.

KF7CG
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WB8FOZ on August 16, 2015, 10:39:17 PM
{T}he city of Trotwood always had a love/hate relationship with the Dayton Hamvention. They loved the extra money but hated the gathering. One year they were even complaining that the Hamvention's money wasn't worth the disruption it caused. They didn't like the Hara even when it was newer too.

In Ohio, a city such as Trotwood has the right to annex township land as they wish..or not; they were not forced.

If you want me to believe they were not out for the tax income an annexation of Hara and the surrounding businesses & residences would get them, then I have a ARC-5 for sale that puts out the legal limit on 40....and work 0.1Mhz-450 MHz



Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: KF7CG on August 26, 2015, 10:04:31 AM
That was the point. Trotwood wanted the money they could get and wished to do nothing in return.

KF7CG
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: AF8JC on September 11, 2015, 07:10:49 PM
For the fella that mentioned there are something like 53 Chairmen & Vice Chairmen for various committees for hamvention, I think I heard it takes something like 450 volunteers to support hamvention. I am a member of DARA and we routinely have around 150 at a regular meeting, and around 250 or so at the annual Christmas Party/meeting. So, when it comes time to pull off hamvention, the DARA members have to really come out of the woodwork. I have had flea-market spaces for the last 3 years, but next year my wife (also a DARA member) and I have already volunteered to work on transportation. We each agreed to work 6 or 8 hours (I don't remember which) and you can do it all in one day or spread it out over 2 or 3 days. It seems as though they try not to burden a volunteer too much and still give them time to enjoy the show. To run for the major offices of DARA, you must have served as a committee chair or vice-chair for one of the hamvention groups. Hamvention is a big part of DARA and vice versa. Right now, they seem to really have things down pat. I'm sure it took lots of mistakes to develop the system they have in place. I would certainly not criticize anyone for how they do things. Many of the thoughts expressed here are well known and I'm sure the chairmen do everything that they can to address those concerns. For some things, it's just not practical or in DARA's financial interest to try and change.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: WI8P on September 12, 2015, 06:42:49 AM
For the fella that mentioned there are something like 53 Chairmen & Vice Chairmen for various committees for hamvention, I think I heard it takes something like 450 volunteers to support hamvention. I am a member of DARA and we routinely have around 150 at a regular meeting, and around 250 or so at the annual Christmas Party/meeting. So, when it comes time to pull off hamvention, the DARA members have to really come out of the woodwork. I have had flea-market spaces for the last 3 years, but next year my wife (also a DARA member) and I have already volunteered to work on transportation. We each agreed to work 6 or 8 hours (I don't remember which) and you can do it all in one day or spread it out over 2 or 3 days. It seems as though they try not to burden a volunteer too much and still give them time to enjoy the show. To run for the major offices of DARA, you must have served as a committee chair or vice-chair for one of the hamvention groups. Hamevention is a big part of DARA and vice versa. Right now, they seem to really have things down pat. I'm sure it took lots of mistakes to develop the system they have in place. I would certainly not criticize anyone for how they do things. Many of the thoughts expressed here are well known and I'm sure they chairmen do everything that they can to address those concerns. Some things just can't be practically helped.

Good post!  In my 'few' years on this planet, I have learned that no matter how hard you try to do something right, some people won't be happy and will find something to bitch about.  On occasion, I've asked some of those people why they didn't get involved and try to help make it better.  Their response, though not often worded this directly was in effect saying they just liked to bitch about things, not try to fix them.  To Dayton's critics I say, "Your complaints have been so noted. You may now feel free to look for something else to complain about".  To DARA I say, "Thanks!".   ;D
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on September 20, 2015, 10:07:31 AM
.....

Anybody up for a Nashville area hamfest if one of the local clubs can find a suitable venue and generate a solid organization to keep it going. We have a long way to go yet, finding a reasonable location and building an organization are daunting tasks.

KF7CG
Tough competition from nearby Huntsville.  Huntsville's a great fest and only 90 miles south of Nashville.

Then again, if you could motivate Ronny Milsap, WB4KCG to sponsor it and put on a show, you'd have a good start.  Then convince Brentwood resident Dolly Parton to get a license and show up and you'd really have folks knocking on your door.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N4OI on August 06, 2016, 04:58:36 AM
Given the demise of Hara, and its replacement is an agricultural fairground, it seems a good time for a consortium of the larger equipment manufacturers to take this event over and move it to a proper city and venue.....  just sayin'

73
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8AUC on August 06, 2016, 02:29:26 PM
Given the demise of Hara, and its replacement is an agricultural fairground, it seems a good time for a consortium of the larger equipment manufacturers to take this event over and move it to a proper city and venue.....  just sayin'

73
That's an interesting take on the situation.
And it makes me wonder....if all the equipment manufacturers stopped coming to Hamvention and started their own show, how long would Hamvention stay as large as it is?

Dayton Hamvention is the only hamfest I've ever been to where the manufacturers are there too, not just the equipment sellers and vendors. To me, that's what makes Hamvention special and worth attending every year. You literally have it all in one place. Everything from the crustiest boat anchors in the flea market, to the shiniest newest whiz-bang gizmo inside, and just about everything in between.

I like it.

73 de N8AUC
Eric
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on August 06, 2016, 08:59:41 PM
Given the demise of Hara, and its replacement is an agricultural fairground, it seems a good time for a consortium of the larger equipment manufacturers to take this event over and move it to a proper city and venue.....  just sayin'

73

If you have a problem with a fairgrounds that happens to also cater to agriculture, then there would be a whole bunch of swapfests that you have a problem with. Is it that you think HR and agriculture don't mix? Or are you afraid you may have to rub elbows with the peasants that grow the food you eat? Some of whom also enjoy HR as a hobby.

Not to mention I have seen rural fairgrounds that make HARA look like the dilapidated dump that it is.

So now the question. What do you consider a proper city? And what would you consider a proper venue?

Since your just sayin, I am just askin some questions.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: DL8OV on August 07, 2016, 04:11:47 AM
I do not have any experience of American exhibition venues but over the years I have seen some splendid examples in other parts of the world. In another thread I made a post where I compare Messe Friedrichshafen and the Tokyo International Exhibition Center with the new Hamvention site:

http://www.messe-friedrichshafen.com/mfn-en/company/about-us.php

http://www.uska.ch/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/hamradio_2.jpg

http://www.dxcoffee.com/eng/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/IGP7038-e1309127580294.jpg

http://www.bigsight.jp/english/index.html

https://ukamsat.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/tokyo-ham-fair-2013.jpg

http://onjapan.net/2006/hamfair/img_1953.jpg

http://www.greenecountyfairgrounds.com/images/livestock1.jpg

http://www.greenecountyfairgrounds.com/images/livestock2.jpg

Friedrichshafen is a purpose build exhibition complex with large high ceiling air conditioned halls, parking for thousands of vehicles, a well run campsite, excellent catering and easy access via the Autobahn to the rest of Europe. The Tokyo International Exhibition Center is a massive complex in the middle of a world-class city. It has a series of large high ceiling air conditioned halls and easy access via one of the best subway systems in the world. You have the Greene County Fairground.

So, suppose I have a few thousand dollars to spare and I have to decide between flying to Tokyo or the Greene County Fairgrounds, which do you think I should pick, East or West? The decision to move the Hamvention to the Greene County Fairground demonstrates small local thinking by an amateur radio club who are not considering the world outside their own back yard. Think of CES in Las Vegas, think of some of the international auto shows that are held in the USA every year, that's the sort of scale and type of venue that you deserve rather than a few cattle sheds in a field. I know that the numbers at Dayton were falling and unless the ARRL find a world class venue to replace what was held at Hara they run the risk of becoming irrelevant and the major manufacturers will pull out. Then there will be two international ham events rather than three.

Peter DL8OV



Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on August 07, 2016, 05:42:11 AM
You give the Dayton Hamvention too much credit. Some of the things you mention draw much more in attendance or cover a footprint that Hara could not even come close to. Comparing apples and oranges with statements like that. The Hamvention will never be Vegas sized event. With attendance around 25000 over 3 days, that would not even pay the rent on that type of facility.

Lets face it...the Hamvention is small potatoes compared to almost all international conventions. Our boat show in Milwaukee is bigger. Even a Green Bay Packer practice draws more people then the Hamvention. 66000 to watch the offence play the defense. And that is a 1 day event.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W6EM on August 07, 2016, 06:22:55 PM
Given the demise of Hara, and its replacement is an agricultural fairground, it seems a good time for a consortium of the larger equipment manufacturers to take this event over and move it to a proper city and venue.....  just sayin'

73
That's an interesting take on the situation.
And it makes me wonder....if all the equipment manufacturers stopped coming to Hamvention and started their own show, how long would Hamvention stay as large as it is?

Dayton Hamvention is the only hamfest I've ever been to where the manufacturers are there too, not just the equipment sellers and vendors. To me, that's what makes Hamvention special and worth attending every year. You literally have it all in one place. Everything from the crustiest boat anchors in the flea market, to the shiniest newest whiz-bang gizmo inside, and just about everything in between.

I like it.

73 de N8AUC
Eric

Perhaps you haven't looked beyond "8" land.  Hamcation in Orlando has a full complement of manufacturers.  Also, the Huntsville (AL) hamfest has most of them as well.  On the other hand, being a farmer's kid, I spent a lot of time at county fairs in California, so parking on pasture, dust and crusty cow stuff doesn't bother me.  Hamcation is also held in a large fairgrounds facility.  Huntsville is smaller, and fits inside part of the Von Braun Convention Center.  Nice place, and air conditioned, thankfully, in hot and muggy August.

As has been said, 25,000 attendees really isn't such a large event.  Especially when that's a combined total over the three days.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9IQ on August 07, 2016, 08:00:57 PM
Tom,

I have lots of experience with both. You would be well served to attend Friedrichshafen - it is a great event. If its size equalled Hamvention, it would win hands down - better food, better facilities, better toilets, better lounging area, better camping, better transportation, better parking. and many more hotels to chose from. Add the beauty of the lake that marks the corner of three countries and you also have a fantastic vacation.

- Glenn W9IQ
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: K8PRG on August 08, 2016, 03:33:27 AM
You give the Dayton Hamvention too much credit. Some of the things you mention draw much more in attendance or cover a footprint that Hara could not even come close to. Comparing apples and oranges with statements like that. The Hamvention will never be Vegas sized event. With attendance around 25000 over 3 days, that would not even pay the rent on that type of facility.

Lets face it...the Hamvention is small potatoes compared to almost all international conventions. Our boat show in Milwaukee is bigger. Even a Green Bay Packer practice draws more people then the Hamvention. 66000 to watch the offence play the defense. And that is a 1 day event.

Comparing a hamfest to Packer football...now that's classic "apples to oranges" if there ever was such a thing.
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: W9FIB on August 08, 2016, 01:37:03 PM

Comparing a hamfest to Packer football...now that's classic "apples to oranges" if there ever was such a thing.

Absolutely!  But then why should only others have all the fun!
Title: RE: Please Remind Me Again -- Why Dayton?
Post by: N8AUC on August 09, 2016, 01:31:37 PM

Comparing a hamfest to Packer football...now that's classic "apples to oranges" if there ever was such a thing.

Absolutely!  But then why should only others have all the fun!

Love it! A beer, a brat, a belch, and Packer Football.
Go, Pack, Go!

They're my second favorite NFL team.
#1 will always be the Cleveland Browns.
Even though they have been painful to watch for quite a few years now.