eHam
eHam Forums => RFI / EMI => Topic started by: W4TL on May 20, 2014, 07:57:49 AM
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I am just wondering if others are experiencing problems with the new Eaton AFCI's? I recently moved into a new home in a 55 and older Del Webb Community (which incidentally restricts antennas) and began to assemble a modest station (100 watts with a small vertical antenna). Well I got everything in place and began to check out the antenna, etc. and my wife advised me that some of the electrical circuits in the house went off. Well i went to the breaker box to reset the breakers and try again with power reduced to about 20 watts. They still tripped. At this point I realized I had EATON AFCI's, so I did a Google search and discovered that there is a problem with their AFCI's and the ARRL Lab had assisted them in determining that they indeed had a problem. They developed a new breaker with "HAM" included in the product code that was supposed to be immune from RF at the W1AW station running 1 to 1.5KW on all bands. Eaton supplied me with the new AFCI's, 18 of them and once they were installed I thought things were going to be OK. Well, I was surprised to find out that they are still tripping. I have tried several different antenna types a stealth vertical located about 20 feet from the house and a Buddipole located about the same distance, both of these antennas have the same results. About half of the breakers trip no matter what power level 10 watts or 100 watts. I am looking for solutions and or suggestions as to how to approach this problem. I really hate to give up my hobby of 50 years because of the AFCI tripping.
Any suggestions or help would be immensely appreciated.
73
Terry Jones, W4TL
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Hi Terry; do you own this home? If you do, I would try snap on ferrite on the hot and neutral to the breakers, trying one of the most sensitive ones first. I have had experience only with GE and Square D AFCI, and short of close lighning strikes, they seem to be pretty solid.
As one who has done inspected service entrance installs, seeing ferrite inside a load center is certainly unusual, but I don't recall any particular rule against it.
You might also do a quick check using a dummy load first, to insure you have a radiated issue, which seems more likely than RF conducted out the AC of your rig. Is this a 12V powered radio with a separate power supply?
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I do own this home. I had given a thought to snap on ferite beads but haven't gotten around to trying one of those (quite expensive for 18 AFCI's). I did try a dummy load and no problem, so the problem is definitely RF radiation coupling to the house wiring. The radio(s) in question are 12V powered be a separate power supply. I think the EATON (Cutler-Hammer) AFCI's are the problem. I wish I could try a GE or Square D AFCI and see if that would help but can't do that. Here is a link to the tests and results that were done at the ARRL Lab http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems (http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems). My AFCI's are the newest ones on the market that are supposedly immune to RF but are not.
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The NEC started to mandate the use of AFCI early in the 2000's, starting with just bedrooms. In later years, they increased the scope to all "living areas". So at this point, most 120V general use circuits will be protected by either a GFCI or an AFCI. It should be noted that it is not illegal for you, the homeowner, to replace the AFCI's with standard 15 or 20A breakers.
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I realize I can do just that. My worry with that would be if I should have an electrical fire that during the course of investigating the cause of the fire they realized that I was in violation of code because I did not have AFCI'S that the insurance company would deny payment for that reason. This is a solution that I don't want to take. There has to be other practical solutions available.
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Replacing the devices is a solution.
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What do you suggest replacing them with. Eaton has already replaced all of the AFCI's with their new ones that the ARRL lab says are immune to RF and they are still tripping. :)
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Do you have a good radial system on the vertical? If not, you may have common mode RF feeding back into the house via the coax shield.
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I suspect a faulty antenna installation which includes coax isolation along with improper grounding. Easiest is to relocate Buddipole with some ferrites and baluns to see if you can mitigate the situation. Also try rearranging the grounds in your station. 100 watts is too low power to be having the problem with the breakers.
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10W is way too low a power to be tripping breakers. How is your coax routed into the house? Not laying next to a bunch of wires running to the panel box, I hope. One test might be to place the radio outside next to the antenna and connected with a short piece of coax. If the breakers still trip then you know it is RF directly radiated from the antenna. If not then you know it is RF following the coax into the house. If its the coax then try an "ugly balun" in the coax line before it enters the house.
How is your power getting into the house? Underground? Is your antenna or coax directly over the underground power feed?
A more complete description of your antenna and feed line installation may be helpful to get some more ideas.
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I'm going to, in the next few days to do a little additional grounding on the vertical and station ground. The power coming into the house is underground but is no where close to the coax coming into the shack. I am also going to try a ferrite choke on the Buddipole and try both of these with the radio and feedline both outside of the house and see if that helps any.
These AFCI's are so sensitive that we have a cordless phone in the basement and one of them have actually tripped when my wife answered the phone. :)
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If the AFCIs are really tripping by cordless phone which is in the 2.4 Ghz range you got a serious defect problem with them. I would either have company replace them with RF immune ones or have them pay for replacing them with another product.
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Eaton did replace all of my AFCI's (18 of them) with the supposedly RF immune ones and they still trip.
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Oh well. More phone calls to them, get them out and show them the problem. After they replaced them you didn't test them while they were there?
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Tripping from a cordless phone - that is sensitive. I wonder if you have an issue with the electric service panel like a missing ground or open neutral. Who replaced all the breakers? If it was a licensed electrician maybe you should get him back to check the grounds and neutrals. If the breakers were really that sensitive Eaton would be flooded with complaints and neighbors in your community (which I assume were all built with the same breakers) would be screaming pretty loud. If a cordless phone was tripping them the so would wireless routers and cell phones.
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I'm wondering if they installed standard ACFI devices thinking they were the RFI immune devices? A threshold test performed before and after installation would tell the story. Do you have one of the original devices to reinstall?
To threshold the problem the RF power is increased until an RFI fault occurs. This is repeated several times with the results recorded. This is to find the mean and the variation in fault trip points. The results can be plotted. Then after a potential RFI fix is installed the threshold test is run again to see what the improvement, if any, is. Simply testing at one power level (100 watts for example) obscures valuable troubleshooting data.
I would threshold the present installation and there will be one ACFI device that trips first. I would replace this with another brand of ACFI in the hope that it has more RF immunity. If it does not trip at full RF power I would replace the other ACFI devices with the same. Or, Eaton can send out a fresh RFI immune ACFI and that can be tried. Or one of the original devices can be installed in place of the most sensitive ACFI to see if the new batch is significantly different than the original batch. For something to be considered improved I would expect a 10 dB improvement. Note that I would add nothing to the AC wiring. That means no capacitors, no ferrite chokes, nothing.
Now, if the threshold test shows a reasonable RF power being under the ACFI trip point, operating at this reduced power is certainly a solution. Are you ready for QRP? This is how I solved what looked to be a nearly intractable RFI issue at a good neighbor's home. Forty meters became my QRP band.
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Buy another brand of AFCI. There are many stories posted of how one brand is less affected than another.
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The interface for Load center breakers are brand specific. They do no interchange. It's unlikely anyone else makes a replacement Eaton AFCI now.
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I just reached out to our ARRL Officials via e-mail, asking them to join in on seeking a resolution to the AFCI situation. Let's see what their response is. :)
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Eaton promised to work with ARRL on future issues, so going to the League is probably the right move at this point, unless you have a local Eaton engineering rep in the area. you could call an electrical supply house to find that out.
I have a little concern about ferrites in the entrance panel for, as you know, they are conductive. I doubt your local inspector will issue a waiver to use standard breakers while this is sorted out. the interim solution I'd think about is ferrites outside the panel at the wire clamps, as well as ginning up a Q&D field-strength meter and running along the grounds and such to see if they are REALLY ground. working on that might get you to a solution faster. just get a sensitive meter, a diode, and a .001 or .005, a little open coil, and start sweeping.
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I just moved everything to the outside patio, the transceiver, erected my Buddipole, in a dipole configuration, resonant on 14.100 1:1 SWR with 49 ohm measured impedance and all of the feedline outside. The antenna was about 25 to 30 feet from the house. The electrical circuit I used for this experiment was a GFCI. I had the transmitter set to 45 watts. I keyed up sent out a few T E S T DE W4TL's. When I went back inside to check the AFCI breakers they had tripped again. The GFCI used for the power supply did not trip. This leads me to believe that the problem is with the Eaton breakers not being able to withstand a near field RF environment. I did hear back from Mike Gruber, K1MG at the ARRL Lab and he said he was looking into this and would get back to me next week (Memorial Day Weekend) :)
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It sounds like the breaker is at fault, but I would carefully check to see that all ground screws, netural(white wire) screws, and the (usually) black hot lead screws are tight in the breaker box. You could also buy one of the plug in outlet testers (cost $10 ? at a box store) with 3 lights which indicate correct ground, neutral, and hot hook ups and verify that all outlets are OK. This...a good thing to do even if not an RFI issue. I would also verify with my own eyes that the breakers you(they ?) installed were in fact the RFI immune model. Strange things can happen (and be dangerous) if outlets are not properly wired. Also the main neutral (and ground) connections need to be solid in the breaker panel....NO loose screws or bolts...check the big cables coming into the panel. Were all the tripped AFCI's on one side of the panel (the same 120 volt half of the box??) might be a clue. I have had no problem with AFCI RFI, but several times I have identified various strange problems in AC circuits caused by less than a very good solid low resistance to the neutral main. Also check the AC voltage on a few circuits on each 120 volt side of the box. I do not know what the spec is, but would be suspicious of a possible system fault if the phases are more than a very few volts apart. I am not a licensed electrician, so these are just some of my observations after 60 years in the electronics field.
Rick KL7CW Palmer, Alaska
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You may want to go to the Home Depot internet site and read their AFCI installation hints. It is important that each black wire is traced back and paired with its white partner wire where in comes into the box and is then connected to the AFCI. I am sure strange things would happen if the wires were not properly "paired". Also the white wire from the AFCI must be properly terminated in the box. In the old days all white wires were the same and just tied down to the neutral terminal strip in any order......NOT NOW. I have fixed many strange electrical problems, even in new construction, which was supposedly wired by licensed electricians and inspected by the proper authorities. Do not assume anything just because.........
KL7CW
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Not to change the subject, but quite a lot of these type problems are from a faulted ground installation. Check the house ground for the electrical system and make sure the ground rod for the circuit breaker box is a good ground point and is properly connected! Make sure also that the antenna ground system is bonded to the house electrical ground system. You may have to install or get installed extra length ground rods to get a good ground.
If the ground is not good, the ground system will 'feed back' through the ground wire on the street drop to the electrical company ground forming a sort of antenna and a 'back door' for RF to get to those breakers.
Added: You may have to get an electrician or the electric company to come down and measure the ground installation at your house to make sure it is giving you a good ground.
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I did verify that all 18 of the Eaton AFCI's are indeed the HAM type.
After talking with Joe Fello from Eaton yesterday (May 27) I performed a series of tests today on the HAM AFCI's installed in my home on May 2.
On the tests I did today, May 28, there were 6 breakers that tripped no matter what the power level.
The experiment today was with my Buddipole antenna in a dipole configuration with a SWR of 1:1.1 about 25 feet from my house. Using a Kenwood TS-2000S transceiver and using the frequency for all tests today was 14.100 Mhz. All emissions from the radio were CW (morse). The first test was with my equipment inside and 100 watts output. Three TEST DE W4TL's were transmitted and the six breakers tripped. I reduced power to 45 watts transmitted again and the 6 breakers tripped. I reduced power to 20 watts and all 6 breakers tripped. The second test was made outside with the radio and feedline outside. The same three series of transmissions with the same power levels and all 6 breakers consistently tripped. The third test was also made outside and using auxiliary power from my Honda 2 KW power generator and in no way connected to the house wiring. The same three series of transmissions were made and all six breakers consistently tripped with all three power levels. In my opinion this eliminates the possibility of RF feeding back through a common power source and narrows it down to the AFCI's being intolerant to a strong RF field. A residence next door (with the HAM AFCI's installed) experienced no tripping. The house on my other side without the HAM AFCI's experienced numerous trips with the series of tests.
When we first installed the HAM AFCI's on May 2 it was a few days before I could get back on the air to try things out and there were other breakers in both of my panels that tripped on testing on other frequencies, but I failed to note which ones they were.
I truly believe that the devices are susceptible to a strong RF field. They may work well for neighbors of hams but not for the ham home. If I had been transmitting 500-600 watts I feel the residence next door with the HAM AFCI's would have tripped too.
Joe Fello with Eaton has been a true professional in trying to resolve this issue and I am in hopes that a solution will be forthcoming. What concerns me is that down the road amateur radio is going to suffer immensely if the AFCI issue is not resolved. As the next generation of hams come along and build new homes (the 2014 NEC requires AFCI's on all interior living areas in a residence, including appliances) they will not be able to put a station on the air because of the AFCI's being intolerant to a strong RF field.
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Just got off the phone with Joe F. from Eaton. He is sending me six HAM breakers with additional filtering to replace the ones that were tripping today. More on this when we get the new ones installed.
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I would expect them to be responsive due to the serious nature of this problem. If these AFCIs which are somehow designed to recognize a small arc in the line can't operate in RF fields then they must not be passing some kind of EMI susceptibility test.
Not sure who I would alert, maybe the FCC or some other accepting agency. Hope someone can pipe in here with suggestions.
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This thing sounds really bad. Consider a police vehicle driving down the road talking on his radio while breakers in all the houses are tripping as he passes by! Consider things like food in the frig or freezer that goes bad because the homeowner doesn't know that the breaker has been tripped. This thing could get really ugly. It is probably not as sensitive to VHF as it is on 20M, but who knows until it's tested.
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This is ridiculous that a wireless phone can trip these breakers. I would not send them all the breakers. Find the most sensitive breaker and don't send it to them. Send it to ARRL. This really ticks me off.......That there could be another thing we hams have to deal with. Who bears the cost of the electrician to replace these HAM AFCIs?
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AFCI devices in the U.S. adhere to UL 1699. IEC 61000-4-3 is used for radiated immunity and IEC 61000-4-6 is used for conducted immunity.
I don't know what immunity level AFCI devices must pass at. The four possible radiated field levels are 1, 2, 10, and 30 V/m. The three possible conducted open circuit levels are 120, 130, and 140 dBuV. Even the highest levels listed can be exceeded in the vicinity of a 100 watt HF transmitter. An AFCI device might comply with the appropriate standards yet nuisance trip.
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ARRL article: http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
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It would be interesting to be able to make the same tests at some homes in a different development that uses Eaton breakers. I'm wondering if some electrician mis-wired something in all the homes in your area as they were being built. According to some reading I've done, the AFCIs contain an imbedded microcontroller that monitors the current waveform looking for high-speed changes that result from an arcing connection. I expect this makes them susceptible to RF on the conductors unless they have ample filtering.
It might be interesting to run some tests on other bands like 40M and 10M.
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What are the 44.3 and 44.6 tests? Hope they are stringent enough.
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It might be interesting to run some tests on other bands like 40M and 10M.
Really doesn't matter, we know they are susceptible, even to wireless phones. Who would have thought that they would put DSP in our circuit breakers!
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Just think, every switching power supply in the home has an ability to distort AC wave form. CFLs too. Anything that has a current versus voltage plot that has a sudden change to high current at some voltage can distort the waveform peak.
This will be a can of worms.
KF7CG
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Terry,
If you have not done so, I would suggest you read my second May 24th post and verify that the black and white wires from each circuit are connected as a pair to an AFCI...do not mix white(neutral) wires from different circuits. I know this is a long shot.....but it would be easy to verify next time you open up the breaker box. Good luck and let us know the final solution to the problem. Rick KL7CW
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it sounds like Eaton is really trying. give them credit. if they'd send out a FSM, it would seal the deal that they're trying to fix this. hope the one-offs they're sending settle things.
just for the record, which series of entrance panel do you have? common residential panels are the BR (formerly Bryant division of Westinghouse) and the CR (Eaton Cutler Hammer original.) both are good.
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Just got off the phone with Joe F. from Eaton. He is sending me six HAM breakers with additional filtering to replace the ones that were tripping today. More on this when we get the new ones installed.
The six new breakers arrived today (May 29) just before noon. Replaced the old HAM breakers with the new ones with additional filtering. Ran tests on 40 Meters and 20 Meters both with 100 watts CW output to my Buddipole antenna in the back yard. The results were good, there was no tripping of the breakers with the additional filtering. This leads me to believe that the additional filtering in the AFCI's did the trick as the other HAM AFCI's without the additional filtering consistently tripped. :)
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I'd throw as much RF on as many frequencies as I could in order to have a happy feeling about them. I'd put the antenna next to them and also use the wireless phone.
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I'd throw as much RF on as many frequencies as I could in order to have a happy feeling about them. I'd put the antenna next to them and also use the wireless phone.
I'm going to configure the Buddipole for 17 Meters and try it.
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Works great on 17 Meters :)
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After they get your house straightened out they need to replace your neighbors breakers as well.
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Hey guys:
I happen to a "Cutler Hammer" breaker (Eaton) breaker box in the house. I added a circuit to the "shack" last fall and AFCI'd it. No nuisance tripping problems here, and I have a SWAN350 for HF, and the breaker box is on the other side of the wall from the "shack"
Being as I am in the Chicago area, the house is all steel conduit, and if not conduit, steel armored cable. Seems to make a pretty good shield. I am almost wondering IF the problem the original poster is having is the house wiring acting as an antenna possibly a "resonant one". I am a licensed electrician, and I know most of the country uses non metallic cable for residential work. The suggestion of ferrites at the service panel MIGHT not be a bad idea, if the wiring is acting as antenna
Hope this is of some help.
de Howard, N9KTW
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Another question is this. What is on the circuits that trip? Does the tripping follow specific breakers (swap breakers between circuits) or is it tied to certain circuits?
If the trips are tied to certain circuits, it may well be that some device is rapidly changing its operating point or current draw in the presence of RF. Having someone view the AC waveform on one of the tripping circuits while a signal is being transmitted might be enlightening. If the RF is causing an SCR or TRIAC in some power supply to conduct strongly at time that is not normal that migh distort the AC waveform enough to trip the breaker. CW would be a worst case offender since the changes would be sharp edged, either signal or no signal.
KF7CG
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I expect the wiring in the house is acting as an antenna picking up the HF signal and feeding it into the breaker.
The problem with ferrites is that to be effective on 40M (or lower) it is probably going to require more that one small ferrite bead slipped over a conductor going to a breaker. Additionally, a small ferrite may be saturated by the normal AC current (as high as 20A on most circuits) flowing through the conductor. An inspector would probably have heart burn if he saw a panel loaded up with a bunch of conductive ferrite beads and you could have an issue if a fire was ever traced to a panel that had been modified with ferrites.
I wonder if Eaton is actually adding inductors and bypass capacitors as RF filtering to the breakers or are they doing firmware changes that alter the sensitivity to higher frequency pulses. I expect the latter. I would think that the arcing they are trying to detect would result in the largest pulses near 120Hz and a few harmonics. I wouldn't expect the arcing to create much energy in the HF spectrum as compared to 120Hz.
I also wonder if the cordless phone is one of the old units that operate on 49MHz or is it a newer model on 900MHz or 1.4GHz. I expect that the lower in frequency you go, the more impact it will have on the breakers.
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I expect the wiring in the house is acting as an antenna picking up the HF signal and feeding it into the breaker.
The problem with ferrites is that to be effective on 40M (or lower) it is probably going to require more that one small ferrite bead slipped over a conductor going to a breaker. An inspector would probably have heart burn if he saw a panel loaded up with a bunch of conductive ferrite beads and you could have an issue if a fire was ever traced to a panel that had been modified with ferrites.
I also wonder if the cordless phone is one of the old units that operate on 49MHz or is it a newer model on 900MHz or 1.4GHz. I expect that the lower in frequency you go, the more impact it will have on the breakers.
I feel that the house wiring is acting as an antenna and thus traveling into the panel to the breakers. I am not going to try the ferrites as that would only lead to other consequences if there were to be a fire and probably would not be according to code in an electrical panel.
The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base.
I feel things are promising now with the additional filtering in the AFCI's. Eaton, in my opinion needs to change their manufacturing to include this filtering in all of their AFCI's.
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and when you reply to them, they either will, or provide the better AFCIs as a catalog item.
you can always put ferrites on the AC lines outside the entrance panel. snap-over housings.
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Not only house wiring but any extension cords or cord lengths. Seems odd that an arc from wireless phone base would cause problem and not a similar arc occurring when plugging and unplugging anything that draws current.
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...The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base....
I could see one circuit breaker (the one the phone is connected to) tripping if that were the case, but it was said that half a dozen breakers were. I doubt the small arc from that is causing anything.
And I would still check the ground system to be sure everything was connected correctly and the connections were properly done, clean and tight.
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...The phone is 1.9 Ghz and I doubt that power and frequency would bother the AFCI's. What I suspect happened there was there was a small arc in the charging cradle contacts when the phone was removed from the charger base....
I could see one circuit breaker (the one the phone is connected to) tripping if that were the case, but it was said that half a dozen breakers were. I doubt the small arc from that is causing anything.
To clarify this there was just one breaker tripping when the phone was removed from the cradle.
Some bad news though, my neighbor next door reported to me yesterday that he had a HAM AFCI trip while I was on the air. I did not have any tripping at my house with the latest ones Eaton sent me, they have worked fine for me on all bands without any tripping. This further affirms that the HAM breakers (the ones that were tested at the ARRL lab) are not going to work in close quarters.
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I wonder if the neighbor's latest AFCI trip was due to your transmission or if it tripped in response to an unrelated event?
Some testing with the neighbor might be in order to determine which bands and what RF power level cause AFCI tripping. You will then have the information you need if you chose to run at reduced power to solve the neighbors AFCI tripping.
This thread has brought valuable information and potential improvements to light. Perhaps you could take your findings to a wider audience by writing an eham article.
Googling afci nuisance tripping brings hundreds of hits. Apparently these devices are still evolving and input, such as yours, to the manufacturers may help lead to improved devices.
I work in the EMC community I'll keep an eye out for more on AFCI RF tripping.
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I am sure it was an RF saturation trip. The neighborhood I live in, The Village at Deaton Creek, a Del-Webb/Pulte Homes Community the houses are only about 15 to 20 feet apart. The last six breakers that Eaton sent me are working without fail with power levels up to 100 watts on all bands. The antenna I am using is a Buddipole configured as a dipole about 9-10 feet above ground. I am giving up on ever running an amp here in this community. What I fear is that when and if I put up a wire antenna that the problem will only get worse because of the increase in antenna gain. I thought the problem with TVI with 6 meters and channel 2 was a problem in the 60's and 70's was bad, but this AFCI situation is terrible and in my opinion will be the demise of amateur radio if these problems are not corrected in the manufacturing of these devices. I know the problem can be corrected in the manufacturing of components with additional filtering, such as the ones Eaton just sent me, they work flawlessly here at my location. It's up to the manufacturers to correct this problem, which will cost them a few more pennies per breaker to add the additional components to ward off RF saturation. The ham community needs to stand up and demand the manufacturers address this problem. :)
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It would be interesting for all of us if you could ask your Eaton contact what they actually did to modify your breakers. Was it actually adding additional components like inductors and capacitors (i.e. L/C filters) or did they modify the firmware to avoid the RFI issue?
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If your Buddipole dipole does not have a common-mode current choke at the feedpoint you might try adding one. If the shield-side buddipole is not tuned close to resonance the feedline shield common-mode current will increase. That can increase RF current through the AC wiring. Perhaps a choke at the antenna and at the shack could help.
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Request not do any antenna changes till this is sorted out with Eaton. I'd rather have more common mode to test the effectiveness of the new breakers. It seems that Eaton is not concerned enough to send any reps out to verify correct wiring of the breakers.
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Is Eaton just sending you breakers and having you install them yourself? I don't think I'd be changing out any breakers in my neighbor's panel unless you are a licensed electrician. That's asking for liability - especially if the new breaker fails to detect a fault in an extension cord somewhere and a fire results.
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There are enough paths to a nuisance trip of an AFCI to make the head swim. Saturation trips, trip algorythm sensitive to operating frequency, and radio signal as a trigger that causes another device to change operation point is such a way as to trip breaker.
Now this is a DC to DC example of interaction so it is just a pointer to strange phenomenon. I had a camper and an older tube display TV that would run on 12 V DC. It would work well on battery if the camper were not plugged into shore power. Whenever the camper was plugged into shore power the TV would cycle on and off, and occassionally the power converter for the camper would do a protective shut down. This was worse if there were no other drains on the sytem than the TV. It seems as though the switching supply in the TV and the switching supply in the power converter were interacting with each other. I belive this could also happen in households where AFCI breakers are present.
I a moderately high power switching supply in the house is using zero-crossing switching for TRIACs in its circuitry and these are occassionally triggered by incidental RF to conduct on the high point of a cycle or two the AFCI could see intermittent high current surges that though they were not harmful had all the appearences of an arc. Higher current switching power supplies and AFCI breakers in RF fiels might be something to investigate.
I know! Just one more headache.
KF7CG
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To answer some of the questions.
The Buddipole does have a feedpoint choke/balun. The antenna is always at resonance on the operating frequency as indicated by an antenna analyzer.
I changed out the breakers in my panel and my neighbor is going to change out his. I definitely would not make any changes in another homeowners panel.
I don't know what additional filtering the breakers have in them, but they are a little bit deeper physically indicating they have more components (inductors & capacitors) in them. They are working with the transmissions I have made.
Am I the only one that is having trouble with these breakers? I can't believe that I am. :)
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Never heard of AFCIs till this post. Maybe required in newer homes, but all the homes near me built in the 80s.
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AFCI's are required in ALL residences according to NEC code. The 2014 NEC code requires that they be on all circuits inside a residence, including appliances. My house was built in 2013 and has them on all circuits except appliances. What will your neighbor think or do if he is gone on vacation for two weeks and he comes back and you have tripped his refrigerator and freezer AFCI's? A worse scenario could be if your neighbor is on some sort of medical device and your HF transmission stopped the device from working. This is a distinct possibility. I wonder if the ARRL is going to pursue this like they did the BPL issue. I hope they will make note that this problem is only going to get worse as hams build new homes with these devices in them. The ARRL needs to be in there helping amateurs address this issue with the AFCI manufacturers.
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A house built in 1980 doesn't have to meet the 2014 NEC requirements. In addition, local jurisdictions can determine if they want to follow the entire NEC or not. Most new construction in most areas however will require AFCIs on all circuits. I agree that this is going to become a major issue.
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I forgot to ask this question. Are the breakers plug and play or do they need to be wired in?
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The breakers plug into the buss bar in the panel but you must wire the hot and neutral conductors of the branch circuit to the breaker.
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if you never touch the house wiring, code is grandfathered.
when you make a change, by code, everything related to that circuit has to be brought to the current revision of code. if you have some old arcwelder panel like an FPE or God forbid, a Zinser/Sylvania panel that has multiple issues beyond being unable to accept an AFCI breaker, you are required to change out the entrance panel or otherwise provide AFCI to the whole circuit. and changing the panel makes every other circuit in the house subject to the requirements of code as it exists today. if that's something archaic like a 60 amp or a 120-volt single-phase power drop, that also has to upgrade.
only the local electrical inspector can waive any requirements in your area.
and this January 2014, every circuit in a living space is required to be on an AFCI protected circuit in the latest code book.
now, you can get there by making the first device in the circuit an AFCI device (outlet) and chain the rest off it like you can do with GFI outlets. assuming you can find the first device. which is why AFCI breakers are the go-to solution now.
not a licensed contractor, I got my understanding from home inspector blogs and contractor posts. your voltage may vary. any questions, the source is your local inspector, because communities often tweak the standard codes. if your burg has not adopted the 2014 NEC code, yet, or had it forced on them by state regulation, none of this matters right now.
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Most of these AFCIs are probably being installed in new homes with CCRs and HOAs which rarely see any RF from a ham. What bothers me is that I think the industry solution will be like it was in the old days with TV. They will supply a RF immune AFCI only when requested, just too many out there to be recalled. Bummer. Who picks up the installation tab?
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Most of these AFCIs are probably being installed in new homes with CCRs and HOAs which rarely see any RF from a ham. What bothers me is that I think the industry solution will be like it was in the old days with TV. They will supply a RF immune AFCI only when requested, just too many out there to be recalled. Bummer. Who picks up the installation tab?
The point is not recalling those already out there. BUT TO DEMAND THAT ALL MANUFACTURERS BUILD SUFFICIENT RF PROTECTION INTO ALL NEW DEVICES. It really doesn't matter whether a house is built in a development with CCR's and HOA's or not. If a ham builds on a 100 acre spread and follows code he will have to deal with these devices as well. If not addressed now it will only become worse. It's really hard to explain to a neighbor that the problem is with his AFCI and not your radio transmission especially when he finds out that he will have to pay to have the devices replaced.
I feel the ARRL is just going to stick their head in the sand on this.
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Hey, you guys missed the notes earlier in this dicussion. The ARRL has its hands all over this case plus it has been working with EATON to have RFI resistant AFCI breakers built. The ARRL is in their solidly just not in a confrontational and flashy manor. I believe that part of the problem is that the ARRL has clout with the FCC and other communications entities, but not with the National Electric Codes and related entities. This is a cross jurisdictional fight and the worst thing we would want to have happen is to have two large government agencies to get into a turf war with Amateur Radio in the middle.
KF7CG
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The AFCIs are in complete compliance if they meet the EMI portion of the specification. The only way to have the AFCIs not falsely RF trip is to redesign them and change the EMI portion of the spec. Guess we have to wait and see what happens.
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I didn't miss the notes earlier in the discussion. I read their (ARRL) article "ARRL Helps Manufacturer to Resolve Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter RFI Problems"in early April about the AFCI's when I first realized I had a problem and have talked to their lab about this situation. The word "Resolve" would make one think the issue in this article is settled, solved and fixed. I can assure you that it is not resolved because the AFCI's the article refers to are still tripping. I totally support the ARRL and always will. Why haven't they have made public more information about it if they are in fact doing more. The HAM AFCI's they helped prototype in their (ARRL) lab aren't working in a near RF field. Eaton has sent out more AFCI's to me with additional filtering which tolerate the RF much better (They do not trip).
I totally agree they need to be redesigned to accept and tolerate the RF. Is the league pushing or pursuing this? :)
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The term "HAM AFCI" makes me wonder if they intend to supply standard AFCIs through their distributors and only supply HAM AFCIs via special order when they have a complaint. That won't be good for hams. Can you imagine telling your neighbor who knows nothing about breakers, ham radio, or RFI that he must hire an electrician to replace all of the breakers in his panel in order to prevent you from tripping them. >:( Or that it's not your fault that you tripped the breakers while he was out of town and $400 worth of food in his freezer spoiled and had to be thrown out.
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I believe that the AFCI mess will be with us for quite some time. From what I have seen it is the result of an agency seeing a possible problem and then mandating the first technical fix that it could see without any regard for the possible side effects.
I can see the logic now. Arcs generate RF signals. OMG if we can detect the signals on the powerline we can trip in cases of an arc. Lets build them. Oh, oh they respond to other RF too. Keep them away from broadcast stations and toss in a little filtering. I really believe that no great deal of investigation was given to the frequency of spurious trips caused by the neighboring environment until after the breakers were mandated as a standard and the excrement began to hit the ventilator.
Everyone, FCC, ARRL, whatever the initials of the agency that writes the NEC are, a whole bunch of city code enforcment bureaus, realtors, home owners, and Amateur Radio operators will be struggling and fighting over this for a long period of time.
Has anybody ever found out if the electronic dog fence in the wrong place can trip some of the unhardened models. I have a bad feeling this will boil down to a manufacturer by manufacturer slog. What do you do if your neighbors circuit panel doesn't accept AFCIs that are RFI resistant.
I won't say RFI proof since I believe that their design precludes that, their RFI resistance can only be enhanced.
I think that the AFCI was picked green.
KF7CG
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A little history: http://w3.usa.siemens.com/us/internet-dms/btlv/residential/residential/docs_AFIC%20Circuit%20Protection/SIE_WP_AFCI_History.pdf
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Back to the League's position on this, why haven't they pursued this like they did the "Grow Light Ballast" interference? They succeeded in getting that culprit off the market.
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-to-fcc-grow-light-ballast-causes-hf-interference-violates-rules (http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-to-fcc-grow-light-ballast-causes-hf-interference-violates-rules)
I realize HF interference from a device is different than a device being tolerant to HF transmissions, which is the issue with AFCI's. The end result from both devices is the same, the amateur can't operate because of these devices being in close proximity to his station. At some point down the road, I don't have any idea how long that will be but EVERY amateur will have these devices in his home. Is it better to address this issue now or wait for the hams to start dropping out of the hobby because they can't put a signal on the air?
I'm not advocating taking the AFCI's off the market at all. What I would like the League to do is to lobby to get the standards changed on these devices to make all future AFCI's more tolerant to HF transmissions by redesigning them with improved software and filtering. If the League is working toward that I would like to know. :)
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it's a case of every time a foolproof technology is introduced, someone invents a bett... ahhhh... an interesting codicil to the theory, is that more acceptable to all? noticed in the Siemens white paper (obviously for point of sale) that "a vendor" tried this on 477 volt 3-phase decades ago and found their approach was bogus.
every installation is unique, and some folks are going to have radiating siding, or a resonant ground, or little demons moving electrons around when nobody is looking, or whatever Murphy-related issue you can think of.
if Eaton et al keep a box of "special" breakers at the support desk in case of frequent trips on suspected-good wiring, hooray for us. lord help us all if specialized testing is required, like megging the branch circuit, before they release a Magic AFCI.
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There have been a great deal of ideas and solutions offered up on this subject. I would like to hear from individuals that have experienced this problem with AFCI's and if and how they resolved or are dealing with the situation. I can't believe that there are not others who are not experiencing this. Maybe no other ham has them in their residence. :)
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I remember seing a note from the ARRL that they were working on this with Eaton but had gotten little to no cooperation from other breaker manufacturers.
In reading the Seimens paper and paying close attention to the regulators involved, I see very little place for the ARRL to weild influence. The FCC has little jurisdiction in this area also. Since these devices are not emitters nor are they receivers of communications they do not fall under the FCC's control unless they cause interference. The FCC has about as much (maybe less) control over them as they would over a toaster that incidentally received radio signals.
Until some one convinces the electrical codes and safety bodies to incorporate radiated emissions rejection into the standards for AFCIs there is little force to be had in this situation. That Eaton is willing to try and that the league has a somewhat cooperative relationship with them is a big plus.
Now if for some reason WiFi routers were to reliably trip these units we might have some help. Question, does anyone know what the VHF/UHF susceptibility of these devices is? The local police might find it disconcerting if their radios turned off the lights in the new homes in their area.
KF7CG
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The UL 1699 standard for AFCI devices include conducted and radiated immunity tests per IEC 61000-4-6. But the levels are not as high as a what a 100 watt transmitter next door can produce.
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If I have the info correct, 25 feet from house on aux power the AFCIs tripped at 20 watts. Not sure of the lowest power, think 10 watts was mentioned.
Any way to even ballpark the values possible to be induced into the AFCI? The way I read the spec 140db microvolts (10 volts) max.
Assumption is the problem is conducted versus radiated RF.
Tests also only go up to 80 Mhz.
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Some bad news though, my neighbor next door reported to me yesterday that he had a HAM AFCI trip while I was on the air. I did not have any tripping at my house with the latest ones Eaton sent me, they have worked fine for me on all bands without any tripping. This further affirms that the HAM breakers (the ones that were tested at the ARRL lab) are not going to work in close quarters.
:) My neighbor received the new AFCI with additional filtering on Tuesday to replace his suspect breaker. He replaced it the same day and so far there have not been any trips with the new breaker. In my opinion this further affirms that the additional filtering does the trick :)
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That is good news if the newer "enhanced" breakers become Eaton's new standard.
What we need now are "real world" tests of other manufacturers breakers. I don't believe that all the electrical distribution products companies are conceding the AFCI market to Eaton.
Again thanks to all who put in time to solve this instance. Now let's see how Square D breakers react.
KF7CG
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Not even close to being resolved in the ham community. Try running a kilowatt and beam in direction of AFCIs.
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Not even close to being resolved in the ham community. Try running a kilowatt and beam in direction of AFCIs.
I agree, I don't think it takes a KW to trip these devices. I have abandoned the idea of ever running an amp in this community. Can you imagine a mobile unit driving down the street in a neighborhood like mine with a 100 watt signal after dark. I'll bet you can watch the lights progressively go out house by house as they drive down the street.
I know now the problem can be resolved. It's up to the manufacturers of these devices to do it by incorporating enough filtering and improved firmware to insure that RF doesn't affect them. This is where the solution lies. Are the manufacturers willing to spend the extra money on each item to fix the problem?
I still would like to hear from others who have experienced AFCI's tripping with HF transmissions.
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I think it's up to a change in regulations.
With 1 million houses built per year in the U.S. with each having a dozen AFCIs, and guestimating $2 per AFCI, if the cost is passed on dollar for dollar the additional cost is 24 million dollars a year total. Per homeowner the cost is $24.
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Without a regulation change, some mfgs are going to make the cheapest AFCI that they can (thus no RFI filtering) and most electricians (knowing nothing about RFI) are going to install the cheapest AFCI they can purchase into the new homes. Everything goes to the low bidder. Everybody is happy except for the poor guy who purchases a home next door to a ham, or near a police station or broadcast station.
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there is a little bitty difference in the race to the bottom. you do not pass code and collect $200 mixing and matching the parts in the entrance panel. they are rated for service with a certain class of breakers, which are rated for a certain class of panel.
it might fit, but you are stomping on the codebook if you put a Siemens breaker in an Eaton BR panel. you need to stay within the brand, and within the series. don't know if a CR breaker will fit in a BR panel, but they don't belong together. the plating is different, they are not tested together, etc. (CR panels have a plated copper bus bar set, BRs are aluminum, for instance.) the inspector is required to drop their pen and frown. theoretically the "universal bus" is just that, but there are little physical differences that make the slippery switch obvious for a reason.
if you don't know if Schneider Square-D tests their AFCIs in an RF field, or Siemens, or Billy Joe's Gently Used Old Electrics, or whomever, you kinda need to ask around. so far, all we know about is Eaton working with the League. for 690,000 potential customers, at least, I think Eaton buddied up for a reason. it sure isn't costing them much to detail an engineer and poke about in the lab, over and above chasing field complaints.
this is why I asked way back when what series of panel was being dealt with.
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Making all AFCIs compatible with amateur radio will cost money. Who should pay for it?
1. The tax payer through a tax increase.
2. The buyers of newly constructed homes through higher house prices.
3. Amateur radio operators through a user fee.
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I would pick none of the above. A little bit premature to ask who should pay. We don't have the whole story, very little of it and very little info. Have no info on the test data, whether the units passed the CE or RE tests, how they were conducted and by which lab etc. Units may not have been tested above 80 Mhz.
So I think we wait until we hear more, hopefully from the ARRL.
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Eaton is a reputable manufacturer so let's assume that their standard AFCIs meet the EMC immunity requirements of UL 1699. Amateur radio RF transmissions can cause conditions that exceed UL 1699 requirements and making AFCIs immune to amateur radio transmissions will cost money. So, if one advocates that more robust AFCIs be made available the question of who is to pay is a legitimate one.
AFCIs are mandated by law and the cost is borne by buyers of homes built since 1999. The benefit they receive is safety from fires caused by arcing loads. They receive the benefit and they pay for it. Making AFCIs immune to amateur radio transmissions benefits the homeowner and the amateur. Should the cost be shared by the two? In fairness perhaps but logistically it would require a change in the amateur radio service. The straightforward way to pay for it is to change the immunity standard and have the homeowner pay for it.
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Here are some interesting links to AFCI information.
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ct_206788.pdf
http://www.bcd.oregon.gov/boards/electelv/board_pack/2011/20110526/JohnPowell.pdf
http://www.appliancedesign.com/articles/93122-nema-recommendations-on-afci-home-electrical-product-compatibility
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter
This last paper makes me wonder if the Eaton fix was simply to reduce the AFCI sensitivity to all events?
At Eaton:
http://search.eaton.com/cgi-bin/query-meta?v%3Aproject=eaton.com&query=afci&binning-state=xindustry%3D%3DElectrical
A look inside an Eaton AFCI
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/1030709241580.pdf
http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/ct_133553.pdf
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This last paper makes me wonder if the Eaton fix was simply to reduce the AFCI sensitivity to all events?
I was wondering that myself. Looking at the internal pictures where would you be able to place L and C on the neutral and hot branch circuit connections without doing a complete mechanical re-design? The series L would be rather large in order to handle 20A of current.
I think I read somewhere that Eaton holds a patent on the AFCI.
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I too had thought of filtering the main AC power but there's another way and that way is to filter the low power signal path to the detector circuitry.
The thing that can make or break the passive filter approach is the frequency range needed to detect arc events. If restricting the detector signal to less than 1.8 MHz provides enough information to reliably detect arc events a passive filter could be the solution. If higher frequency information is needed the burden falls on the detection algorithms. A third line of defense would be to incorporate an RF detector to provide more information to the ARC detect circuitry.
One of the articles mentioned that the UL 1699 arc fault detect threshold is 5 amps yet the manufacturer had set their threshold to 50 mA.
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Reading Eaton's advertising paper on their AFCI trip diagnostic tool does not paint a pretty picture for avoiding nuisance trips. They specifically mention electronic ballasts, large screen plasma TVs, and some switching power supplies as contributing to nuisance tripping.
Their notes on the diagnostic instrument point out that even though a single item may not be strong enough to trip the AFCI a combination could. This seems to indicate that even if a neighbors TV, lights, battery chargers do not radiate enough signal to be the cause of significant interference on the Ham bands, the combined conducted noise could cause the AFCI to trip.
Add to this that the presence of an outside RF source could alter the operating points and frequencies of susceptible units. It the shift in operating points was randomly correct, a combination that didn't trip the AFCI could trip it in the presence of RF. This doesn't include the effect of any received RF on the breaker.
Given that the ARRL radio lab is most probably a very clean environment for power supply and otherwise line noise, no wonder it was possible to create a breaker that would handle full output from W1AW but trip in the field where the power line environment is probably much dirtier.
The other problem is that an AFCI can coexist happily with the neighboring Ham or in your house until some new device is added to a circuit and the cumulative effects cause nuisance trips when you are transmitting.
This provides the possibility for nuisance tripping from Amateur Radio to be a complex and intermittent problem.
Thankfully, as far as I know, there are no AFCI interrupters installed near me. Definitely none in my home.
KF7CG
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Reading Eaton's advertising paper on their AFCI trip diagnostic tool does not paint a pretty picture for avoiding nuisance trips. They specifically mention electronic ballasts, large screen plasma TVs, and some switching power supplies as contributing to nuisance tripping.
Add to this that the presence of an outside RF source could alter the operating points and frequencies of susceptible units. It the shift in operating points was randomly correct, a combination that didn't trip the AFCI could trip it in the presence of RF. This doesn't include the effect of any received RF on the breaker.
Given that the ARRL radio lab is most probably a very clean environment for power supply and otherwise line noise, no wonder it was possible to create a breaker that would handle full output from W1AW but trip in the field where the power line environment is probably much dirtier.
This provides the possibility for nuisance tripping from Amateur Radio to be a complex and intermittent problem.
KF7CG
Eaton has been excellent to deal with in this issue and I couldn't ask for them to be more cooperative.
The question remains what is going to be done about this problem? As I stated earlier unless these devices are redesigned and manufactured to handle the RF in the field and not just in the lab. It has been proven with the AFCI's sent to me by Eaton that they can make one that is more tolerant to RF exposure. I just hope that others who are having this problem with manufacturers other that Eaton (Cutler Hammer) have an individual to deal with who is as understanding Eaton's representative. Who should lobby for this change in design and specifications for this device for the interest of ALL HAMS who will sooner or later be faced with this problem. If you live in a neighborhood or a home built prior to 2011 you are OK. If you move into a home or neighborhood built after that date I can assure you that you will have to deal with this situation. The next generation of amateurs will most definitely have to deal with AFCI problem. Why not address it now before the problem gets worse. :)
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"If you live in a neighborhood or a home built prior to 2011 you are OK."
...until one of your neighbors decides to do a major remodel, or finish the basement or attic. Then the AFCIs will likely go in for the new circuits.
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I have used Eaton products in various things and I fully agree that they are a class outfit. I further agree that this problem needs to be addresse now. What I don't have a handle on is how to bring the manufacturers to the table (excluding Eaton) to mandate solid and functional RFI nuisance trip immunity.
I am afraid that unless we can get the electrical standards parties involved and have them put some solid RFI restance rules with teeth in place, that the standards will get about as much respect as Part 15.
Have you had any neighbors other than the one remark on strange trips with their breakers? I will keep my ears open for anything interesting.
KF7CG
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I suspect the programming points in the HAM breakers are modified, or alternatively, small SMD filters are installed on an alternate PC board inside the breaker. at this point, they are probably "specials" that residential engineering has under the desk, and they are recording the dispersement and any other details they can gather to see how widespread the issues are.
there is probably a magic number they have within the department, beyond which they may consider an -A version to put into production for general use.
all speculation, but typical reactions by business doing tech stuff. I encountered such things doing PC support at a controls company eons ago floating over the dividers as I chased bum ethernet cables. we periodically encounter vendor "specials" in telecom to get over the hump between finding fault in the field and revisions in production of our next ump-thousand order.
as for modifying the UL or NEC standards... my friend, you have no idea what you are asking. I chased a little curiousity through meeting notes a few years ago within the NEC just to satisfy my curiosity, and the deck is seriously stacked against change. the particular issue was requiring GFI dockside, and a reported 8 deaths from ground fault was not significant enough.
remember, the NEC is owned by the NFPA, National Fire Prevention Association, and no-power is considered safe, while anything that can cause a fire is absolutely positively to be legislated against. FPE no-trip breakers are blasphemy, but false trips are a nuisance because no-power is safe.
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This problem has been going on for quite some time. Below is a link from "The Villages in Florida" that had the problem referenced in March of 2013. Good reading from residents there. There was one remark that a resident should contact the FCC and they would intercede and stop the "Ham". We hams are going to get the rap out of this not the AFCI manufacturers.
http://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/breakers-tripping-71403/index5.html (http://www.talkofthevillages.com/forums/villages-florida-general-discussion-73/breakers-tripping-71403/index5.html)
Here is a link to a You Tube video of a ham out west dealing with the AFCI issue, in fact he is the one that sent the breakers to the ARRL for testing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s)
I haven't had any other complaints as of yet. I expect that I will as I ramp up my operating. If this device is not modified amateur radio will be adversely affected down the road and the population will lobby against amateur radio because of the nuisance trips by our radio transmissions.
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Totally agree that the standards are next to impossible to change since they are now adopted being the result of many years of drafting and development. I think the ham is now in the position to have to explain the problem to the affected neighbor, have the neighbor request the "ham" model from the manufacturer, and have to pay for the installation. Arghhhhhhh....
Unless there is some large class action suit by thousands of parties that occur damages as a result of inadvertent tripping due to some other cause than ham radio, I see no relief on the horizon.
Wish ARRL was involved years ago when this first started, oh well.
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I think the ham is now in the position to have to explain the problem to the affected neighbor, have the neighbor request the "ham" model from the manufacturer, and have to pay for the installation. Arghhhhhhh....
Wish ARRL was involved years ago when this first started, oh well.
I wonder now why I have been a member of ARRL for all these years. It appears they are going to run from this issue.
This whole thing is becoming similar to the TVI issue with channel 2 in the 60's and 70's when hams would keep several Drake High Pass Filters on hand and give or loan one to their neighbor to stop the problem. The problem with this would be that we couldn't keep every manufacturers AFCI on hand. If your neighbor has to wait for a replacement breaker this will keep you from getting on the air until it arrives so as to safe face with your neighbor. This is certainly not going to help the hams image in the public perspective.
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Wish ARRL was involved years ago when this first started, oh well.
I wonder now why I have been a member of ARRL for all these years. It appears they are going to run from this issue.
This whole thing is becoming similar to the TVI issue with channel 2 in the 60's and 70's when hams would keep several Drake High Pass Filters on hand and give or loan one to their neighbor to stop the problem. The problem with this would be that we couldn't keep every manufacturers AFCI on hand. If your neighbor has to wait for a replacement breaker this will keep you from getting on the air until it arrives so as to safe face with your neighbor. This is certainly not going to help the hams image in the public perspective.
[/quote]
The ARRL has been on this for quite a while and is responsible for the RIF/EMI standards on the breakers being as high as they are. If it doesn't behave like AC it appears that the standard owners don't understand it.
Since the problems with AFCIs can be installation dependent, it is quite reasonable that the ARRL test area which would be a very electrically clean area wouldn't catch instances where Amateur RFI was only a contributor to the problem.
For the general public there is a large misunderstanding of the FCC and a profound misunderstanding of anything radio or electrical. Couple this with a blind faith in the manufacturers of consumer products and it will be interesting.
KF7CG
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To me this just boggles my mind, EMC basic 101 course understanding covers areas of consideration for such issues. For some reason I suspect that the manufacturers knew the issues and decided that dealing with "hams" on a case by case basis would be in their best interest.
And also it's hard to believe that ARRL would use a clean environment to test the AFCIs, after all, EMC exploratory testing requires as much "dirt" be thrown at the unit as possible to find its vulnerability.
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From the ARRL's notes the setup a test room at headquaters and tested at least one of every AFCI make and model that they could find. They didn't say the room was electrically clean, but if it were at headquarters it stands to reason that there wouldn't be many EMI cogenerators around as this would interfere with W1AW and their receiver and amateur equiipment testing.
If you are trying to determine the effect of Amateur Radio signals on something, you probably don't want to clutter up the measurements with other unknown sources.
From what I read, Eaton was happy to work with them. The others, nothing said.
KF7CG
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I guess I differ on how to do EMC tests. My understanding is that there are two approaches. One is the standard lab EMC test to a given specification. The other is an exploratory test in to determine the susceptibility limits of the device, which in some cases require the testing be done in a typical installation environment.
Obviously I prefer the latter.
Just to add, I liked the video showing the AFCIs tripping with low 18 MHz RF from quite a distance away. Had to involve some resonance effect from the wiring.
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If you are interested in susceptibility from one source the clean approach is better, but if you want "real world" results you need circuits loaded up with a typical home appliance load.
I believe from what I have read, and can reliably infer that there are too many variables to reliably characterize AFCI susceptibility to Amateur Radio. This is because we have the singular and cumulative effects of everything in the circuit, the interactions between the items, the RFI, and the reactions of the other devices in the system to consider.
This will be an interesting slog.
KF7CG
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There must have been a slug of contributing factors in my test (video referred to earlier) because I tripped the AFCI's in 16 houses across the street when I transmitted on 17meters. All those houses were built less than 2 years ago. Fortunately, all the houses on my side of the street have the earlier version and are not affected by RF. I have 2 in my house and they have never tripped.
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Something about 17 meters, wonder if wiring to panel is ~26 feet? Or ~54 feet?
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How about 400 feet.
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In the video it looks like the house was still for sale. I wonder how bad the problem will become with typical user loads on the circuits.
If those were no load trips, those breakers really are a problem.
KF7CG
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In the video it looks like the house was still for sale. I wonder how bad the problem will become with typical user loads on the circuits.
If those were no load trips, those breakers really are a problem.
KF7CG
The house to my left that is new and has not sold has 18 of them. I assume there is no load on the circuits and 12 of the 18 consistently trip when I transmit.
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I don't expect that AFCI RF tripping will be higher when the AC circuit is loaded. EMI is like an onion, once you peel the top layer another is revealed. What this means is there is a dominant EMI source that obscures the next one.
EMC design engineers tend to design to the standard. If the standard calls out 3 volts the device won't generally be designed for more if it adds cost.
WX7G, eNARTE Certified EMC Engineer
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This is the most concerning RFI thread I have read. I don't think merely trying to get new AFCI devices that are immune to (ham related) RF is adequate. There needs to be a total recall and replacement (think GM ignition switches). What if a ham trips a circuit running someone's medical device? I would like to see ARRL initiate a class action lawsuit. I will send them an email on this. Harris K9RJ LM ARRL
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WX7G.
Eaton's literature on their AFCI Trip Diagnostic tool implies that multiple devices that do not trip the breaker can have a cumulative effect that can. The devices they spell out as possible causes of nuisance trips are the same devices we see as causing EMI to our equipment, Switching power supplies, electronic lamp ballasts, and some CFLs. If these devices can be cumulative what would prevent an Amateur signal from also being cumulative.
The problem with trying to force a recall on these breakers is that it is not a one manufacturer problem and the most cooperative manufacturer is just the one has happened to appear in these early cases. Further if push came to shove, the device manufacturers could argue that it was the Amateur Radio operations that were the hazard and should be removed from exposure to the public.
This is an indeed troubling and interesting turn of events. The basic problem is the current state of the art in arc detection requires capturing and identifying relatively small distortions of the AC power waveform and much of this has been done by detecting the RF signature of an arc. We now have devices that to do their job must be sensitive to a wide band of RF appearing on the power line a moderately low signal strengths. That they are sensitive to nearby communications emissions is not surprising. Further the devices that were failing met and surpassed the NEC standards for such devices. The same code that mandates them in new construction.
One solution would be that all power circuits were mandated to be run in continuously connected metal conduit with the conduit correctly grounded. This would provide a great deal of shielding from extraneous EMI while also improving the safety of the circuits.
One thing we can be happy for is that AFCI is almost certainly a killer for BPL.
KF7CG
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"One solution would be that all power circuits were mandated to be run in continuously connected metal conduit with the conduit correctly grounded"
The only problem there is that the conductors eventually exit the conduit and run through the unshielded appliance cord. If only people were smart enough not to set metal filing cabinets on the cords then maybe we wouldn't need AFCIs in the first place. ;)
I wonder what kinds of fire problems they have in other countries where the branch circuits are 220V.
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400 feet from AFCI to outlet within house? That distance has to be from the transmitting antenna to breaker box.
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Yes I saw the part in the literature about multiple noise sources but I believe they would have to be almost equal in amplitude to combine and cause nuisance tripping.
To find out how AFCIs do their job the U.S. Patent Office is a good place to look. Searching under AFCI brings up 421 patents. Patent 6,590,754 describes one method of arc detection. All the patents I looked at use di/dt detection.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=6&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=AFCI.TI.&s2=AFCI.ABTX.&OS=TTL/AFCI+AND+ABST/AFCI&RS=TTL/AFCI+AND+ABST/AFCI
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The dI/dT type of detection would enhance the opportunity for RFI interaction problems. If a load used zero crossing switching on a moderately high current load and RFI, though causing no problem to the device, were to move the switching point to a higher voltage of the AC cycle. This would cause high current spikes on switching and these might violate the dI/dT limits of the SFCI. Any load devices that have the effect of "squaring up" the AC wave form could cause problems.
In one lab where I worked there were so many DC supplies and fluorescent lamps on the power lines that it was not possible to use the AC line as a sine wave standard for transformer type testing equipment. The turn on rush of many devices can also be a problem so though mandated as a standard these devices seem to have been adopted too soon.
KF7CG
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Hello.
Some assisted living facilities have no ham rules.
Unlike a normal residence, assisted living places need regular upgrades to everything, including electrical.
And, yes, it was the breakers tripping that was the issue.
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While exploring the various options for a solution to the AFCI’s intolerance to RF, I would like to make it clear that Eaton and their representative(s) have been very helpful during this process and are very serious about coming up with a solution. I believe that their “HAM” breaker that was developed with the help of the ARRL Lab is somewhat effective. In my case it was 66% effective, of the 18 “HAM” breakers they provided me 12 of them worked and 6 of them consistently tripped. It was 95 % effective for my next door neighbor. Only 1 of the “HAM” breakers failed out of the 18 Eaton provided him. Eaton supplied both of us with another type of AFCI to replace the “HAM” breakers and they have not failed thus far.
As I understand it, the latest replacements are of a type that were immune from RF, but susceptible to other noises generated from vacuum cleaner motors, tread mills, etc. (they have the yellow test button versus the white button on the “HAM” breakers). In my situation I prefer this scenario and will take my chances on having a tread mill trip the breaker and not my radio. So far neither the vacuum cleaner or tread mill have tripped a breaker (one of the circuits I replaced has the tread mill). My point is that the manufacturer(s) has (have) the solution to totally fix the problem if they incorporate the technology of both of these breakers into one and make them the standard AFCI for all.
Now for the big question, how are we going to “encourage” the manufacturers to apply the technology of both AFCI’s into their future breakers? This would certainly save a lot of headaches for amateurs who encounter these devices in their new homes and neighborhoods and for the manufacturers who have to field the complaints from amateurs dealing with AFCI’s tripping from RF. There are two other hams who brought this subject to light as early as early 2013. They are W5YZ from New Mexico and NP2B from Florida. You can do a Google Search of their call sign and AFCI together (example: W5YZ AFCI or NP2B AFCI) which will provide you several links to read about some of their activity with AFCI’s. Eaton has worked with both of them and provided them with AFCI’s to help with the situation. Another question remains, even if the manufacturer(s) provides replacement breakers to your neighbor(s) who is going to shoulder the cost? Your neighbor will more than likely not be willing to pay a licensed electrician to replace the AFCI’s. I don’t think we, as hams should be responsible to change them out either. How far are the manufacturers going to go with this situation?
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Hello.
I walked through the Assisted Living facility i visit, explained this to the maint chief.
If the door is open at the breaker box, we can trip the AFCI's, ALL of them, with a talkie.
But, closed, not a problem.
So, walk up to a touch lamp and key a talkie, the touch lamp does this disco show, and goes out, the breaker trips.
Walked in with a CB talkie, and as long as it is not modulated, everything is fine, but that classic "Audio" and everything goes dead, from anywhere!
The VX-7r on 52.525 AM, the parking lot!
I love this stuff!
Make it sound like the terrorists now have a new means to control the USA!
This will get fixed overnight!
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or we all operate portable from Gitmo...
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or we all operate portable from Gitmo...
Gitmo is almost full.
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Gitmo is down to 139 plus guards, but I don't know what the schedule is for remote use of their radio facilities.
On a serious note, was the problem with the Handy Talky in the parking lot reported to the ARRL. Might be slow but given enough reports we might obtain critical mass on this and get some kind of resolution before too many of these things appear in public.
KF7CG
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A million homes a year are being built with AFCIs.
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A million homes a year are being built with AFCIs.
We obviously need to build a lot more radios ;)
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/panel_zps42229491.jpg)
Here is a photo of a Eaton panel in a nearby house with the "standard" AFCI's. 7 out of the 9 breakers consistently trip with power levels from 20 to 100 watts. When the 2014 NEC Code goes into effect the remaining breakers will also be AFCI's on new construction.
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/hamfront1_zpsc405f04d.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Hamback_zpsbdaa810c.jpg)
These are photos, front and rear of the Eaton "HAM" AFCI's that the ARRL Lab helped Eaton develop. Notice on the back of the AFCI that at the end of the product number CHFCAF115 they have added "HAM" to the end of the product number. This identifies it as a breaker that has been modified to tolerate amateur radio transmissions. All 18 of my AFCI's were changed out to the "HAM" breaker on May 2. Six (6) of these "HAM" breakers consistently tripped with varying amounts of power output (up to 100 watts). I replaced these six with a different type (I'll post pictures of one of them shortly) that Eaton supplied me with and so far they have not tripped with power levels of 100 watts.
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/yellowfront_zps2d803f15.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Yellowback_zps5541b6e8.jpg)
Here are photos of the breakers that I last installed to replace the six (6) consistently tripping "HAM" breakers with. These are Eaton CH115CAFA product code. You note they have a yellow test button and are somewhat bigger in the test button area than the CHFCAF115HAM breakers are. This is probably where the additional filtering, etc. is in the breaker. These have performed flawlessly. Hopefully the technology in the CH115CAFA breaker can be included in the final roll-out of their industry standard. Developing a product in the lab is well and good but the real test is when the products are tried in a real world environment. :)
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Maybe there was some confusion as to the distance to the AFCIs that popped as a result of my 17 meter transmissions. The houses on my side of the street are not affected by RF (all 16 of them including my house). This is because they have an early version of the Eaton AFCIs. The houses across the street from me were built several years later and have the AFCIs that ARE affected by RF. The house the greatest distance from my house is approximately 400 feet away. I have a picture of the AFCI in my house but can't figure out how to insert it into the reply. Interestingly enuf, the building contractor put 2 of the offending AFCIs in a blank CB box across the street from me. NOTHING was connected to anything. They never tripped. I have one of them in my work cabinet in the garage (not connected), and it doesn't trip.
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http://s1254.photobucket.com/user/gskey1eorgekey/media/AFCI_zpsc45ee74e.jpg.html
Hopefully you can see this photo.
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Hello.
Yes, both at this location, at the farm house, and in Mexico, fuses are the order of the day.
In Mexico, just regular GFCI unit freak out!
The problem is that things go from 90 volts to around 160.
At that point a GFCI will trip and simply not reset, ever.
So, I am the bad test, I can run anything out here!
But, I am now thinking of getting the smallest size possible of breaker box, outdoor weather resistant, and testing.
Thank you.
And, in Mexico, fuses are REQUIRED on the entrance panel.
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Here is a link to the ARRL EMC Committee Semi-Annual Report dated January 17 and 18 of this year. The part dealing with Arc Fault Current Interrupter AFCI Breaker Immunity Issues is on pages 4 and 5 of the report.
http://www.arrl.org/files/file/About%20ARRL/Committee%20Reports/2014/January/Doc_20.pdf (http://www.arrl.org/files/file/About%20ARRL/Committee%20Reports/2014/January/Doc_20.pdf)
Some excellent reading in this article about other Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC) issues that affect amateur radio.
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Interestingly, the "complainant" in the EMI report was me. I sent two of the offending AFCIs to Mike Gruber, otherwise they would still say everything's OK!
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curiously, according to the inspectapedia, fuses are safer. there is no monkey business, no physical actuators, nothing but bismuth that melts, once. but try and get a fused entrance panel, they're stocked next to the buggy whips and 00A triodes.
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curiously, according to the inspectapedia, fuses are safer. there is no monkey business, no physical actuators, nothing but bismuth that melts, once. but try and get a fused entrance panel, they're stocked next to the buggy whips and 00A triodes.
Hello.
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Safety-Switches/N-5yc1vZbtvq
3 phase even!
Single phase is MUCH easier to get.
But, this is the home depot, not some place in East China.
Want an 00A triode?
The 200 is the normal replacement, and they are super easy to get!
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the 1- 2- 4- etc. were just different manufacturers trying to differentiate their 00 tubes in the market.
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just to add to the discussion. built new house in 2011, with Square D panel and breakers and AFCI's. the radio room is on AFCI's and the beam ant and wire dipoles are about 60 feet from the house, use fl-2100b and ameritron al-80b on all bands. the square d afci's have not tripped one time. the question is what is the difference between the design between the breakers?
richard
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To gain another reference point. How is the house wiring run? is it the "normal" non-metallic sheathed cable like is used in many of the homes in the south or is it run in conduit or some other metallic sheathing? What are your exterior walls? Stucco on expanded metal, or vinyl siding, or ...?
Lot of other considerations, but still a very good data point about Square D breakers not tripping.
We need more of this kind of information, this "experiment" is just beginning.
KF7CG
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just to add to the discussion. built new house in 2011, with Square D panel and breakers and AFCI's. the radio room is on AFCI's and the beam ant and wire dipoles are about 60 feet from the house, use fl-2100b and ameritron al-80b on all bands. the square d afci's have not tripped one time. the question is what is the difference between the design between the breakers?
richard
******************************************************************
KF7CG cmment....
"Lot of other considerations, but still a very good data point about Square D breakers not tripping.
We need more of this kind of information, this "experiment" is just beginning."
KF7CG
Thanks Richard for the information. I'm just curious if you would mind sending and or posting a picture of your breaker panel. In looking at the AFCI's at Home Depot, Lowe's, etc. they all look the same. One point to emphasize and remains unanswered is that the Square D AFCI's are not "type accepted" to go into a Eaton panel but the Eaton AFCI's are "type accepted" to fit in the Square D panels even though they are physically the same. The design and components are apparently different and that is why the Square D tolerate RF and the Eaton ones do not.
I totally agree there remains a lot of questions that need to be answered. :)
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Hello.
In the US, the breaker manufacturer specifies what will and will not work.
In Europe, there a standards.
So, to market around the world, they are made to European standards.
That is why you will find different brands of breakers and panels, and they say something to effect that 'Only for us with'.
In Mexico, this is against the law, so you can mix and match, they all have to meet Panamex standards.
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In the US circuit breakers adhere to UL 489 or UL1077 and possibly other U.S. standards. AFCI devices adhere to UL 1699.
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Hello.
Underwriters Laboratories is a private firm.
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/
There really is no such thing as a standard for electrical devices in the sense of government control in the US, and perhaps why it works!
The National Electric Code is, likewise, a private group.
http://www.nfpa.org
Canada and Mexico have actual published government standards.
So, you can take any breaker from any supplier and any panel, provided they are in the same class, and interchange.
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To answer the question about the house, the 100 amp panel in the house is within 20 feet of the radio room, and inside a wall that faces the Mosley TA-33jr and dipole antenna's. the coax is all underground from the house to the storage house about 35 feet. the wiring is all non-metallic sheathed cable 12 gauge, all the runs are located in the attic. the 200 amp main panel is at the other end, furtherest point from the antenna's. i once had a 80 meter dipole end tied to a post within 3 feet from the main panel. all the antenna's are located on a 32 foot tower at the back of the storage house. inside the storage house is a 60 amp panel with square-d circuit breakers, no AFCI's. I will look at the AFCI's and let you know.
richard
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this is the type of Square-D AFCI that is used.
http://www.lowes.com/pd_73688-296-HOM115CAFIC_0__?productId=3364902
richard
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In the US circuit breakers adhere to UL 489 or UL1077 and possibly other U.S. standards. AFCI devices adhere to UL 1699.
As stated in an earlier post these devices have to adhere to UL 1699. What does UL 1699 say? When you try to find a copy of UL 1699 you can't find one without having to buy a subscription. I would like to see what 1699 says regarding what these devices have to "adhere" to.
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you can get the gist of it on inspectapedia, look under the testing process for FPE "arcwelder" breakers.
wild plagarisation from memory... trips within 5 minutes at 150% load, within 2 minutes at 200% load. I believe the surge current without exploding is 10,000 amps in there, too.
don't try that at home.
if you buy a (1982 price) $2000 breaker test set, there is a spec in there, too.
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In the US circuit breakers adhere to UL 489 or UL1077 and possibly other U.S. standards. AFCI devices adhere to UL 1699.
As stated in an earlier post these devices have to adhere to UL 1699. What does UL 1699 say? When you try to find a copy of UL 1699 you can't find one without having to buy a subscription. I would like to see what 1699 says regarding what these devices have to "adhere" to.
Here is the UL 1699 table of contents. Note that section 44.6 is Immunity to conducted disturbances, induced by RF fields. Section 44.3 is Radiated electromagnetic field immunity.
http://www.ul.com/global/ita/pages/solutions/standards/accessstandards/catalogofstandards/standard/index.jsp?id=1699_2
UL 1699 conducted immunity is tested per IEC 61000-4-6. This link gives some details.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fewh.ieee.org%2Fr3%2Fenc%2Femcs%2Farchive%2F2007-05-01-Conducted-Immunity_ieee_group.ppt&ei=70aiU9uuB4GeyASNpYGYAg&usg=AFQjCNGiTCaDggrNOJ0I0Z-OyvjtllWfkA&bvm=bv.69411363,d.aWw
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:) Another "Atta Boy" for Eaton and their staff. W5YZ advised me after a conversation with Eaton's local representative that Eaton was going to replace all of the affected breakers in his neighborhood at no cost to the homeowners. He also said they (Eaton) was going to do some further testing to see if other AFCI's in the vicinity were affected. This further exemplifies that Eaton is accepting ownership of this problem. :)
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Terry, is everything still Ok at your end?
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Terry, is everything still Ok at your end?
Everything is going OK here as far as we know. I am not tripping any breakers in my house or my neighbor on the right side. I haven't been on the air a lot as we are waiting to get some direction form Eaton as to how they plan on handling this. I e-mailed Joe F. and told him it would be good if I could hear from Eaton's rep in my area so we can move forward. I did operate some mobile on 20 meters (100 watts into a Tarheel II) last evening in my driveway and didn't have any adverse effects.
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From what very little I can find on these AFCI breakers, they don't just work from sensing fluctuation; they sense fluctuation on top of what it senses as a "normal" 60Hz AC signal on the hot line. Sensing both a spike and a break in the normal pattern causes them to trip. This must be why light switches don't trip - and why a situation like a bad space heater plug won't trip them unless it causes the AC to drop or grounds out the neutral wire.
They had issues with some high power dimmer switches. Most of the dimmer switches that just spewed noise on top of the AC signal, (the kind we all know so well), didn't trip the breakers. However, some of the dimmers used a very small portion of the AC 60Hz signal to charge caps or something right at the point where the voltage went +/-. On a scope this would look like a very short clip with fast rise - right at the zero line. The breakers would read this as interruption AND surge - they would trip. The result being the dimmers under something like 1000W(residential) couldn't use this method anymore.
Apparently, with the experiments I've seen on this thread, the same breakers tend to trip - and this changes somewhat when varying power and freq, but some don't tend to trip at all? I don't think the cause is in the breaker circuity, although that's probably where the blame lies and also the solution.
Looks like this can happen from quite a distance, where signal density shouldn't be a problem. It doesn't happen to all the breakers, so I'd knock rf bypassing the breakers shielding down the list.
If it was me, I'd want to know a couple things. Is the rf resonating on the house wiring that just happens to be the right length at primary or harmonics? Do different freqs trip different breakers? On the breakers that do trip, is there an AC signal on the line when it trips? Are the breakers tripping on a circuit where the lights are off? Is the neutral wire acting as an antenna and fooling the breakers into thinking the wire is either shorting against ground or arcing against the hot wire?
My best guess would be that a few of the neutral wires in the house are becoming resonate and the breakers are doing just what they've been designed to do by the imperfect humanity. I'd probably just focus on one breaker that can be reliably tripped by an rf signal, then go into the house and disconnect a receptacle neutral wire and note any change. Many times electricians don't cut and strip a wire in the middle of a run, they just strip a solid wire a couple inches, fold it over, and screw it down. Especially a neutral wire that, until this point in time, was the same as ground.
It's really hard to build an antenna until you don't want to.
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Hello.
I walked through the Assisted Living facility i visit, explained this to the maint chief.
If the door is open at the breaker box, we can trip the AFCI's, ALL of them, with a talkie.
But, closed, not a problem.
So, walk up to a touch lamp and key a talkie, the touch lamp does this disco show, and goes out, the breaker trips.
Walked in with a CB talkie, and as long as it is not modulated, everything is fine, but that classic "Audio" and everything goes dead, from anywhere!
The VX-7r on 52.525 AM, the parking lot!
I love this stuff!
Make it sound like the terrorists now have a new means to control the USA!
This will get fixed overnight!
I tried the experiment here with a VX-8R on 52.525 MHZ AM and 5 watts output transmitting directly in front of my service panels (about 12" away) with the breaker panel doors closed and again with them open. NO TRIPPING with the new Eaton AFCI's installed. It appears the new Eaton "ham" AFCI's are working on 52.525.
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Now if for some reason WiFi routers were to reliably trip these units we might have some help. Question, does anyone know what the VHF/UHF susceptibility of these devices is? The local police might find it disconcerting if their radios turned off the lights in the new homes in their area.
KF7CG
I hav ethe susceptible Eaton AFCI breakers in my apartment and with ~5 watts on (at least) 17 metres to an MFJ magnetic loop, all of the breakers trip when tuning up the antenna, however, I can run 100 watts of CW, FM, and SSB on both six and two metres into a 2m halo on the balcony or 6m Par omni-angle in the apartment without any of the breakers tripping. I have not yet performed any tests on any other bands to see which, if any, HF bands I can operate without tripping all of the Eaton AFCI breakers.
Chris, N0UK, G4JEC
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Interesting datapoint, Chris. From some of the other posts, it sounds like 17 meters is a "sweet" spot for tripping breakers. Whether this is due to breaker design or the average configuration of home wiring is something yet to be determined.
I also saw a note from someone that had had trouble with 50.??? MHz, and someone with a modulated 11 meter signal. However, 17 seems to be the most common.
David
KF7CG
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Another ham in my neighborhood just put up a flagpole antenna. He is right in the middle of a bunch of new homes. I'm waiting to hear how many homes he affects. ???
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Be sure and let us know if he earns his Worked All Neighbors certificate. For some reason I doubt that his neighbors will regard those events as de-light-ful. ::)
KF7CG
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Another ham in my neighborhood just put up a flagpole antenna. He is right in the middle of a bunch of new homes. I'm waiting to hear how many homes he affects. ???
I think Eaton and the folks in the AFCI Department are doing a good job in working for resolution to situations arising out of HF transmission tripping their breakers. I feel they need to come out with a published written procedure how for the amateur radio operators to proceed when they trip their neighbors breakers with their transmissions. In other words an SOP for this type of occurrence. ???
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Here are the results of one of my neighboring hams:
So, here are the test results with the new flagpole antenna and our Eaton AFCI breakers . . .
All tests were run with my Yaesu FTdx9000MP. I did "key down" tests except for my initial tuning . . .
10 meters: Rig tuned up fine. I ran a test with both 25 and 50 watts on 28.200 MHz and 28.405 MHz . . . no AFCI trips.
12 meters: at freq. of 24.910 MHz, when tuning, it tripped the AFCI feeding my den, where the radio is. No other AFCI tripped. I reset the AFCI and was able to tune without an AFCI trip. Then, at 25W key down, no AFCI trip, but at 50W, the same AFCI tripped.
15 meters: at freq,. of 21,110 MHz, while trying to tune the rig, the same AFCI tripped. I reset and tried again to tune, with the same AFCI tripped.
20 meters: at freq. of 14.130 MHz, the rig tuned fine and no AFCI trip. But when I went key down with 25W, 4 of my AFCI's tripped . . . but curiously, not the one feeding the radio/den. Also, all 4 that tripped were side by side in my panel.
I checked neighbor's panel next door and found 5 AFCI's tripped . . . the next house down on the same side of the street had one AFCI tripped.
I have not tested either 30 meters or 40 meters . . .
So, there it is, guys! Looks like we need to get some big batch of replacement AFCI's . . .
Happy 4th to all . . .
73,
Bob, W5IV
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Hi All,
I haven't read through all of the posts but I want to share my success story. I moved into a newly built home in 2012. While running 600W on RTTY it tripped my AFCI breakers. My electrician was stumped. He spoke to Eaton and Eaton asked us to send one of the AFCI to them for analysis. We did that. One of their engineers called me and requested some basic info. such as power level and frequency in operation. At that time a google search turned back very few useful info.
One day I was at the breaker box and I noticed that I had two types of AFCI breakers. I did extensive testing and I wasn't able to trip one type. At the same time I was able to trip the other type consistently and repeatedly. I shared this info. with my electrician. It turned out that the 'good' type of AFCI breakers (Eaton) is an older model. The newer and 'bad' type AFCI breakers (also Eaton) always tripped at higher power (600w). My electrician purchased more of the 'good' type AFCI breakers and my problem was completely solved. Since then I've upgraded my amp. to a legal limit amp. A brief test at a power level higher than legal limit produced to false trips. It's been more than two years since the fix and I have not experienced one false trip. Attached below are pictures I took of the 'good' type AFCI. Perhaps some of you could try to locate this model and give it a try. Please report back if this breaker solves your problem. GL.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag371/pdlpsher/2279d812-d864-4ea4-894b-7a8b61c2995d_zpse1ac4305.jpg~original)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag371/pdlpsher/a2935d4a-ecdd-41ff-b33c-99923c05df92_zps09740b78.jpg~original)
(http://i1373.photobucket.com/albums/ag371/pdlpsher/c44dcd63-cd56-4e28-ac4d-381042e2d2e0_zps25f9db71.jpg~original)
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George, W5YZ sent me an e-mail and wanted me to post this in his behalf because he was having trouble posting to the forum.
"George and Susan Key Today at 11:36 AM
To
Terry
Terry, could you post this on the blog for me? It keeps saying I have timed out and won’t let me post.
Hi Jonathan, Glad to hear your story. Now, send that to the ARRL so they can begin to grasp the idea that this is a widespread problem. On my street there are 14 homes that are affected by the AFCI problem, a total of 128 breakers. My side of the street is not affected because they were build with the "old-old" AFCIs. The houses across the street have the "new and improved" ones. Different from the ones you have. Eaton should pay for the replacement and labor costs because these are defective units. You should contact Eaton for reimbursement. See the QST article http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems for more information. BTW, I am the "New Mexico ham" mentioned in that article. Note that the ARRL washed their hands for any involvement with this problem so anybody that has it should email Dave Sumner, Kay Carigie and Mike Gruber at the ARRL. I thinlk if we bug them enough maybe they will begin to realize this is a big problem, certainly bigger than the ballast/aquarium problem they recently pursued with a passion. The replacement costs just in our neighborhood alone will probably run in excess of $10,000 plus installation. If we had to pay for that and just one neighbor said no, that ham would be SOL. Eaton contact: Joe Fello 412-893-3745.
Thanks for your input! George, W5YZ"
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Hi Terry W4TL- thanks for posting the message for George W5YZ. I'm glad Eaton resolved your issue. I wonder if the ones you have now are the same ones as mine.
Hi George W5YZ- thanks for sharing the article. Since my fix in early 2012 I haven't followed up on this issue. I had figured that I must not be the only one having this problem but perhaps Eaton had a fix for it. To my surprise people are still having issues with the supposedly 'new and improved' version. Sometimes manufacturers introduce newer versions not in the interests of the consumer but rather to save manufacturing costs. And these 'new and improved' versions introduce new problems that were not foreseen by the manufacturer. Luckily I didn't have to spend any money to fix my problem. Unfortunately my electrician took back the 'new and improved' AFCI beakers and used them in another home. Hopefully the new owner of the 'new and improved' breakers isn't a ham :)
Not having read through 11 pages of posts I'd like to find out what Eaton had to say about your problem.
Lastly I found a typo in my previous post. The sentence 'A brief test at a power level higher than legal limit produced to false trips'. should read 'A brief test at a power level higher than legal limit produced no false trips'.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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What about GFCI outlets? Are there any that are rf immune? I`ve tripped some of mine on certain bands running qro.
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Jonathan, Eaton has been cooperating with some of us but if the problem gets too big, who knows? I had two technicians from Eaton come by to assess the problem and they said they would get the "HAM" version of the AFCIs in and have an electrical contractor install them for no charge. We plan to run some tests after they are installed. The other guys in the neighborhood, W5IV and NM5LS still need to run more tests to see how many need to be replaced. The final number, including mine, probably will run over 400 (@$50 each=a lot of $$). As far as GFIs are concerned, I haven't heard of any problems, at least in my neighborhood.
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The retail is $50., but I bet their cost is 'way less.
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The retail is $50., but I bet their cost is 'way less.
Very true. This could explain Eaton's willingness to assist. But once the assistance stops the poor ham ends up paying retail prices. More sadly the cheap hams will swap out the AFCIs with regular breakers with potentially dire consequences.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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If they continue to have all the false trips that I read about, it is likely that a whole lot of them get changed to standard breakers by homeowners and/or their electricians.
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...More sadly the cheap hams will swap out the AFCIs with regular breakers with potentially dire consequences.
What 'dire consequences?' People have been using electricity for years--decades--without the fancy AFCI breakers, and although there have been accidents--and deaths, if people are cautious they will never need the protection these new breakers supposedly afford.
These breakers are the result of political manuvering, politicians, lawyers and others who want the state to dictate and "take care of" people. People with common sense and half a brain don't need these fancy laws--or the troublemaking new devices--to take care of themselves.
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"People with common sense and half a brain don't need these fancy laws--or the troublemaking new devices--to take care of themselves."
But what about the other half of the U.S. population? ;D
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maybe I have a "thing" here, so correct me if I'm wrong... but seems to me that we didn't have fires due to balls of fluff back when there were no backstabbed devices, but everything had to be down under panhead screws at the outlets, etc.
now we have a legion of lazy electricians who backstab devices, which springy contacts are not large enough to carry full current, nick the wire, and get intermittent and arcy. and NOW there is all of a sudden a mandated rush to install AFCIs to correct the issue. when I bought my house 9 years ago, had to replace every outlet and every switch (30 years service) due to either worn outlets that barely held plugs or inconsistent connections at backstabs. solved two years of furnace issues when I finally checked the serviceman switch, which had burned through the wire at the backstab.
so which problem do we really have here?
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All,
I just finished an HF installation at my house and am encountering the problem covered in this thread. On Sunday (July 6th) my new beam antenna was connected to my radio for the first time since moving to this house. After a quick tune-up on 15 meters at low power, one SSB contact was made at 200 watts. No circuit breakers were affected at that time (as far as I know.)
Today (July 8th) I thought I would try PSK. I set the radio to 25 watts, switched to 17 meters, found an empty frequency and transmitted so I could tune the antenna. Breakers tripped.
I have eight Eaton AFCI breakers in my entrance box and another unlabeled AFCI breaker that may also be from Eaton. Four are 20 Amp models and are on the left side of the circuit box. Four are 15 Amp models and are on the right side of the circuit box. The unlabeled breaker is for 220V (for a future amplifier), is rated at 20 Amps and is on the left side of the box. Of the nine AFCI breakers, the eight that are labeled "Eaton" have a white test button. The 220V breaker also has a white button but as I mentioned no brand name is visible on the face.
The 17 meter tune-up tripped three breakers on the left and three on the right. After resetting them, a subsequent test at 200 watts on 15 meters tripped a different combination of four breakers.
The antenna is a 4 element beam at a height of 51 feet. The house is stucco -- which means chicken wire in the walls. My nearest neighbor is ~240 feet away but the house was built around the same time by the same developer. I don't yet know what impact my shack will have on them.
So basically my (new!) shack is off the air until I solve this. I will be calling Eaton in a minute and will keep you informed of the progress of my situation.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and opinions here.
73 de AK2L
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AK2L- if I recall the ones with the white buttons are the 'bad' ones. A few posts back I posted some pictures of the 'good' ones which have green buttons. My problem goes back to 2012. Surely Eaton has made changes since then but the one I posted about does work, although you may have problem finding them.
I have also noticed that mode does make a difference. Digital modes tend to set off the breakers at a lower power level. These gadgets detect the waveform of the RF so that cold explain why the mode makes a difference.
I had thought my electrician told me that 240v circuits don't require AFCI. He didn't install AFCI for my 240v circuit which is located in a bedroom. And the electrical installation passed inspection in 2012.
Please keep us informed on your resolution with Eaton.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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These breakers are the result of political manuvering, politicians, lawyers and others who want the state to dictate and "take care of" people. People with common sense and half a brain don't need these fancy laws--or the troublemaking new devices--to take care of themselves.
Look around you...there are more things that are the result of fancy laws than you realize. Next time you hop into your car think about the anti-lock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, safety glass, unleaded gas, catalytic converters, etc. I'm sure when these technologies were introduced consumers and manufacturers were complaining just like we are today complaining about the AFCIs.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Time to contact Eaton: Eaton contact: Joe Fello 412-893-3745. You might also contact ARRL (Dave Sumner, Kay Cragie and Mike Gruber) and pass along this information. Maybe someday they will realize what a big problem. Your division director might also be someone to email.
George, W5YZ
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Time to contact Eaton: Eaton contact: Joe Fello 412-893-3745. You might also contact ARRL (Dave Sumner, Kay Cragie and Mike Gruber) and pass along this information. Maybe someday they will realize what a big problem. Your division director might also be someone to email.
George, W5YZ
Eaton acknowledges they have a problem. Isn't it strange that other hams and individuals are finding out about the AFCI problem on this forum and not the ARRL Forum on the same subject. The ARRL Forum on this subject has only had about 80 + hits while this one has had well over 30,000 hits. There has been nothing further from the League since their original article in November 2013. Several of us know the problem is not over. It would be nice if the League would be more pro-active in guidance and solutions to this debacle. There are a lot more hams out there that have this problem they just haven't discovered it yet.
Terry, W4TL
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"People with common sense and half a brain don't need these fancy laws--or the troublemaking new devices--to take care of themselves."
But what about the other half of the U.S. population? ;D
Have you heard about cleaning out the pool? The GENE pool, that is! The politicians and the government have been protecting that other half for too long now--and look at how they've overrun the country!! :D
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Look around you...there are more things that are the result of fancy laws than you realize. Next time you hop into your car think about the anti-lock brakes, airbags, crumple zones, safety glass, unleaded gas, catalytic converters, etc. I'm sure when these technologies were introduced consumers and manufacturers were complaining just like we are today complaining about the AFCIs.
Don't have to. I KNOW. And why are those mandated safety devices there? So that the general population can be safe, (another word for taken care of) the politicians passed laws to require them. Some of those laws are for good reasons--like the pollution laws, but others?
Look at the newer technologies that apply a car's brakes to stop it before it collides with anything that may be in front of it. Wanna bet that THAT technology will be mandated in a few years? Our society has become what it never should have had to--a bunch of panty waisted crybabies that don't want to let go of their childhood! They want to have their nanny (the state, in this case) take care of them for their entire life.
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If you want to know how the up and coming technology will perform, just take a look at the recalls on the technology added in the last few years. Sudden acceleration takes over your car and rams it into whatever is in front of you. Air bag canisters explode in high temperatures and send shards of metal through the driver's neck. Heck, GM can't even build a reliable ignition switch. My 2010 Toyota has been back in the shop for 5 recalls now (some of them recalls on a prior recall).
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The 17 meter tune-up tripped three breakers on the left and three on the right. After resetting them, a subsequent test at 200 watts on 15 meters tripped a different combination of four breakers.
The antenna is a 4 element beam at a height of 51 feet. The house is stucco -- which means chicken wire in the walls. My nearest neighbor is ~240 feet away but the house was built around the same time by the same developer. I don't yet know what impact my shack will have on them.
So basically my (new!) shack is off the air until I solve this. I will be calling Eaton in a minute and will keep you informed of the progress of my situation.
Thank you all for sharing your experiences and opinions here.
73 de AK2L
Just curious what kind of response you got from Eaton on your situation.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Update: On July 9th I spoke to Joe Fello at Eaton. After describing my situation he indicated that Eaton will replace my breakers with a new model. This will include paying for the services of a licensed electrician. He also asked for photographs of my power entrance panel.
I asked if Eaton was still researching this issue and if the replacement breakers I would receive were in development. Mr. Fello said no -- Eaton has a new model that fully addresses this issue and that they would in time be phased-in to replace the old design. However their immediate concern was people like me who are experiencing a problem.
73 de AK2L
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Update: On July 9th I spoke to Joe Fello at Eaton. After describing my situation he indicated that Eaton will replace my breakers with a new model. This will include paying for the services of a licensed electrician. He also asked for photographs of my power entrance panel.
I asked if Eaton was still researching this issue and if the replacement breakers I would receive were in development. Mr. Fello said no -- Eaton has a new model that fully addresses this issue and that they would in time be phased-in to replace the old design. However their immediate concern was people like me who are experiencing a problem.
73 de AK2L
Very nice! Thanks for the update. As a suggestion I would have Eaton change out all of the suspected AFCIs regardless whether they are tripping or not.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Here is some additional excellent reading on AFCI's "AFCI's Come of Age" by Doug Hansen.
http://www.codecheck.com/cc/ccimages/PDFs/AFCIsComeOfAge.pdf (http://www.codecheck.com/cc/ccimages/PDFs/AFCIsComeOfAge.pdf)
This article pretty well gives the history of the AFCI and explains the NEC Code affecting these breakers and how they have progressively being made more and more mandatory in interior living areas (they are already required in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens,bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas) This last move in the 2014 NEC will require them in more locations including kitchens and laundries. Look out refrigerators and freezers.
All amateur radio operators need to be made aware of the existence of these devices and the consequences that can occur.
Terry, W4TL :)
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Terry, why don't you invite our friends at the ARRL (Craigie, Sumner, etal.) to read this blog? Maybe then they will start to realize that just writing an article is not enough. They need to poll the membership and not dump the whole problem on hams.
George, W5YZ
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To the defense of the ARRL they don't seem to have been dropping this all on Hams in the field but have helped in maintaining liasons and open lines of communication.
Testing at the ARRL Headquarters might not get near the conditions that occur in the field. Remember, headquarters is a commercial building and has all the wiring run to different standards so the circuit exposures are different. The problems appear to occur in the field where the wiring is to domestic standards and the length, spacing and orientation of the home wiring (think receiving antenna) varies from branch to branch and house to house.
With the various "independent" test that are occuring the problems seem to cluster on 17 meters and digital/cw modes of transmission. This might have been predictable had there been more information available on the arc detection algorithm. Of course each manufacturer uses their own protected method for detecting arcs, so predicting vulnerabilities is difficult.
The ARRL isn't perfect, but it is doing some things to help.
KF7CG
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Update 2: First a correction: I have only 7 Eaton AFCI breakers. A 220V breaker that I thought was an AFCI was in fact only a GFCI.
Joe Fello at Eaton asked a few questions about which breakers were tripping. I performed a couple more RF tests and took additional photographs to send to him. Each time the breakers trip a different combination of the 7; so far the number varies between 4 and 6.
Mr. Fello is sending me some replacement breakers. I have the package tracking information. He asked that I send the old ones to him for research purposes and I am happy to do so.
Due to some scheduling issues (on my part), I will not be able to swap the new ones in for at least a week. I will let you all know how it goes.
73 de AK2L
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AK2L,
thanks for the update. If possible please document the model numbers of the 'bad' and 'good' breakers. Photos would be ideal but not necessary. If you don't know how to post/host a picture just let me know. I hosted my photos on Photobucket and I could do the same for you if you send me the pics.
I was once told that in each AFCI breaker there's a 'black box' that records the waveforms of the trips. Eaton also asked me to send one of the 'bad' ones to them.
All,
In the August 2014 issue of QST (page 55) a reader reported he is having issues with AFCI. The reader happens to be Mike Carper WA9PIE, owner of Ham Radio Deluxe. Here's ARRL's answer on the subject. "Fortunately, the ARRL Lab has found that most AFCI breakers are not particular susceptible, although one run of AFCI breakers from Eaton were unusually sensistive to RF. The ARRL lab worked with Eaton and their new breakers no longer have the problem. If you are having trouble with those breakers, contact the manufacturer to find out which type you have."
AFCI's have been around longer than I thought. The impression I have is that the AFCI problem is generally a recent phenomenon. So ARRL could be correct in that only a 'batch' of them have the problem. If you recall from my experience the 'old' model was RFI proof and the newer breaker was the 'bad' one. With that being said the 'good' breakers I have could be 'bad' in a different environment. The only way to find out which ones are 'good' vs. 'bad' is to have some type of database of various models and people could update the database based on their experience. ARRL is the ideal place to host such a database. Eaton would have such data however I doubt they will share it in public. Perhaps this would be a good question to ask Eaton.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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The "batch" is installed in over 150 homes in my subdivision and who knows how many nationwide. This "batch" started to be installed in 2008 and continue to be installed today. One reason the ARRL knows about it is that I sent them 2 AFCIs last year that had tripped as a result of RFI. Otherwise they had been testing an earlier version that they had bought from Home Depot.
George, W5YZ
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George, does yours have a white test button? Do you have a photo or model number? It seems odd that Eaton would have multiple models of breakers concurrently but nothing surprises me nowadays. I'll see if I could find some info on the 'bad' ones I had. I didn't keep any of them.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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"multiple models" can be explained often enough by shelf stock at distributors. if they have 500 breakers on hand, until that's down to maybe 10% they don't reorder. unless there is a computer redirect to a newer model, if the factory warehouse has 10,000 "evil (to us)" breakers and they get an order for 500 of them, that's what goes out, even if there are 20,000 "good(to us)" breakers on the next pallet rack. everybody "reserves the right to make continued product improvements without notice," as it says in all the catalogs.
the housing market almost stopped, you know, and distributors are anxious to monetize their shelf-sitters before spending anything on reorders or functional equivalents that obsolete what they have on hand. so every single last "evil" AFCI is going to be sold. I guarantee it.
and there won't be a recall to clear the "evil"s. hey, they meet code. they trip under abnormal conditions. remember, to the NEC poohbahs, "off" is safe. so they're safe. nooooo problem.....
just a few cranks out there stomping their feet creating "phase of the moon" oddball environments, hey, they can dang well stop bugging the 98%, right? of course, that's us, but...
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/hamfront1_zpsc405f04d.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Hamback_zpsbdaa810c.jpg)
These are photos, front and rear of the Eaton "HAM" AFCI's that the ARRL Lab helped Eaton develop. Notice on the back of the AFCI that at the end of the product number CHFCAF115 they have added "HAM" to the end of the product number. This identifies it as a breaker that has been modified to tolerate amateur radio transmissions. All 18 of my AFCI's were changed out to the "HAM" breaker on May 2. Six (6) of these "HAM" breakers consistently tripped with varying amounts of power output (up to 100 watts). I replaced these six with a different type (I'll post pictures of one of them shortly) that Eaton supplied me with and so far they have not tripped with power levels of 100 watts.
These are photographs of the Eaton Breakers I am dealing with in my neighborhood. The top picture is one that is problematic they are the "CHFCAF115" AFCI. The only way you can differentiate the "HAM" breakers is to turn them over and they have another label affixed to the bottom side with the HAM designation, otherwise they look identical. They (the ones that trip with RF) apparently are still being manufactured and installed in all new home being built in my neighborhood. The number of AFCI's in these houses range from 12 to 20 depending on their floor plan, in mine I have 18. There are probably 400 to 500 homes built in this neighborhood under the 2008/2011 NEC. Doing the math on this would calculate out to between 6000 and 7000 of the problematic breakers already installed plus another 2000 to 3000 of the "bad" ones yet to be installed. They are finishing and selling at least 2 homes a week in this development all located within 200 feet to 1/3 mile away from my residence. There will be around 1200 homes in this Del Webb Community when it is built out in the last quarter of 2015 and they are still installing the "Bad" breakers in this development. I also assume that they are continuing to install them in other developments as well. As KD0REQ said in his last post they are using what is left "on the shelf" and only addressing problems on an "as need" basis.
Joe Fello with Eaton is one of the nicest individuals I have ever dealt with. It appears with the scenario I see developing with these devices is that Joe will have job security for life. They may clear up the problem for hams in these communities with those homes that are near to hams, but what happens to another ham who moves into a different part of the neighborhood the whole process starts over again. I haven't had any more trips at my QTH since I changed my AFCI's out. I'm still very cautious with them. I fear if I put the amp in line I will cause several of my neighbors lights to go dark as well as mine. I plan to stay with a 100 watt station, my QRO days are over. One good thing came out of this ordeal for me and that is it made me take a closer look at my own installation and insure that it was not my equipment or antennas causing the problem.
Terry, W4TL :)
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Terry W4TL,
Thanks for posting the pictures. Do you have a photo of the six that are now working for you at 100w?
I doubt your issue has anything to do with your station. I built my house with ham radio in mind. My station is well grounded. My antenna is a yagi at over 80'. There's no evidence of stray RF in the shack. Yet mine tripped at power level of 500w on digital modes.
I was at Home Depot today and I took some pictures of the Eaton AFCIs on the shelf. CHFCAF115 is the only 15A CH type Eaton AFCI sold at Home Depot. This really begs the question....why isn't Eaton incorporating the HAM version into 100% of the supply chain? Like you said this problem could potentially be huge given how common these devices are in a high-density neighborhood.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Jonathan, my AFCIs have a yellow stripe and test button. They were installed in 2007 and are impervious to RF. They are NOT the Combination type but only detect parallel (hot to neutral) arcing.
George, W5YZ
BTW, I saw the article in August QST and REALLY think that the ARRL is downplaying this problem. I'm going to write a letter to the editor but I don't think it will get published.
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According to the Aug 2014 QST, Page 55 (The Doctor is In); "Fortunately, the ARRL Lab has found that most AFCI breakers are not particularly susceptible, although one run of AFCI breakers from Eaton were unusually sensitive to RF. The ARRL Lab worked with Eaton and their new breakers no longer have the problem."
It appears to me that the ARRL thinks only Eaton ever had a problem and they fixed that. If anyone is having a problem with the new Eaton breakers or any other mfgs breakers then they need to let the ARRL know about it. From the ARRL info I've seen it looks like their test was a breaker panel in the ARRL lab and keying up W1AW. I submit that their test setup (even at a full 1500W output) is considerably different that the average ham with a back yard dipole located close to the house and 20 to 100 feet of branch circuit wire connected to the breaker.
17M seems to create the biggest problem in many cases. At 18 MHz, 26-feet is 1/2 wavelength so it seems quite possible that many of the branch circuit runs in many home could fall near a multiple of 1/2 wavelength on 17M.
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(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/yellowfront_zps2d803f15.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Yellowback_zps5541b6e8.jpg)
Here are photos of the breakers that I last installed to replace the six (6) consistently tripping "HAM" breakers with. These are Eaton CH115CAFA product code. You note they have a yellow test button and are somewhat bigger in the test button area than the CHFCAF115HAM breakers are. This is probably where the additional filtering, etc. is in the breaker. These have performed flawlessly. Hopefully the technology in the CH115CAFA breaker can be included in the final roll-out of their industry standard. Developing a product in the lab is well and good but the real test is when the products are tried in a real world environment. :)
Here are pictures of the 6 that Eaton replaced the 6 "HAM" breakers with. I found out later after I sent the "HAM" breakers back to Eaton for evaluation that they were 6 of the problem breakers that had been mislabeled in manufacturing and were not "HAM" breakers as the label indicated they were. It appears that Eaton has some manufacturing problems (Dominican Republic) where the breakers are assembled. I was told by Eaton that the 6 replacement breakers were from an older generation that never tripped with RF but would on occasion trip with a tread mill or vacuum cleaner. I'll take my chances with that problem. So far they have not tripped with a tread mill or vacuum cleaner, or RF from my HF transmitter on all bands at 100 watts into an 80 meter OCF dipole antenna, in fact they have not tripped at all.
As far as the Aug 2014 QST, Page 55 (The Doctor is In) article. It would be informative if Mike, WA9PIE would share his findings with this forum especially if he has the Eaton breakers and what his resolution was. The article did not specifically mention that he had Eaton AFCI's only that he was tripping AFCI's in other parts of his house.
The situation is only going to get worse if these "faulty" products continue to be installed until the supply runs dry. No telling how many million they have on the shelf.
Terry, W4TL :)
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Terry W4TL,
It appears that your 'good' breakers are the same ones as what I have, except that yours are the CH type (CU bus, space saving breakers) and mine are the BR type (AL bus, bigger breakers). I don't own a treadmill and I have a central vac. that is hooked up to a garage outlet that is non-AFCI. So here you go....the 'good' type Eaton breakers are either the CH115CAFA (owned by you) or the BRC115CAFA (mine).
The threadmill/vacuum explanation makes sense. Perhaps Eaton hasn't figured out a way to make a breaker that is resistant to both vacuum and RFI false trips. That's why they are selling the newer model and then deal with the hams on a case by case basis. There are definitely more vacuums and threadmills out there than ham radio gear...
This situation reminds me of the discriminator setting on my metal detector. If I want to find nickel and gold the detector will false trip on a pull tab. The discriminator technology can't tell the diff. between a gold ring and a pull tab.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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on antenna lengths for interference, we might want to look at quarter wavelength as effective too. As in the case of all quarter wave verticals around, especially if the problem is current rather than voltage related.
From a troubleshooters point of view it sounds as if the breakers are the source of detection (trip) and the home wiring is the source of signal. This makes rfi trip troubleshooting a problem in the lab as home wiring configuration is as much of the equation as the device. The other thing to consider also is that it may well be that the tripping signal is coming in on the line side of the breaker. I think that we might find that this is a distinct possibility since it is almost always multiple breakers that trip. What are the possibilities that it is the line side of the system acting against the branch circuits that provides the receiving antenna for the tripping rfi?
KF7CG
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Here are some links to some informative reading on AFCI's. It appears that they had a problem with the combination AFCI false tripping with vacuum cleaners, etc. When they corrected that problem that is when they created the problems for amateur radio operators. The majority of the links are electricians forums. Sounds like they love these devices too.
http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/afci-nuisance-tripping-3916/ (http://www.electriciantalk.com/f2/afci-nuisance-tripping-3916/)
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=131796 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=131796)
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=135268 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=135268)
http://inspectapedia.com/electric/AFCI-CPSC.htm (http://inspectapedia.com/electric/AFCI-CPSC.htm)
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1226916-popping-breaker-problems-15a-afci.html (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-dedicated-theater-design-construction/1226916-popping-breaker-problems-15a-afci.html)
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=162009 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=162009)
W4TL
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I sent WA9PIE an email at his ARRL address. Hope he gets it.
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I just sent this email to W1ZR (QST "The Doctor is in") regarding the August QST article:
Dear Joel,
I read with interest your response to Mike, WA9PIE regarding AFCIs (August 2014 QST, page 55). The “one run” of AFCIs you mention has run from at least 2010 to early this year. There are thousands of these defective breakers out there including 128 on my street which are tripped when I transmit on certain frequencies. In my subdivision alone there are at least 1500. We have 3 hams who live in this subdivision who are experiencing the same problem. Several of us have established a blog http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php?topic=96949.0 and there have been nearly 40,000 hits since June. The ARRL has downplayed this problem by having individual hams work this out with EATON. It doesn’t seem to be interested in the magnitude of the problem because they never asked hams that are having the problem to report it to the ARRL. I am the “New Mexico” ham who sent the combination AFCIs to Mike Gruber. Up to that point they had been testing AFCIs they purchased at Home Depot. These earlier versions were not vulnerable to RFI. The Aquarium light ballast only affects the ham next door: One ballast, one ham affected. AFCIs on the other hand affect the ham who has them as well as neighbors up to 400 feet away: One ham, up to 28 neighbors affected. In the future, this problem is going to give Amateur Radio a black eye as more hams move into new neighborhoods and affect more homeowners who might blame the problem on them.
What would I like the ARRL to do?? To start with, you (we, since I’ve been a member for 60 years) need to poll the membership through your Directors, SCMs and affiliated radio clubs as to how many have experienced this problem. Secondly, these defective AFCIs should be recalled and replaced at EATON’s expense. It is not fair to dump this problem on individual hams who have to count on the good will of Eaton to fix the problem. After all, what are we paying dues for if not to have the ARRL jump in on our behalf?? When the problem gets expensive, will that good will hold out??
George Key, W5YZ
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Here is some more information regarding the AFCI's susceptibility to HF emissions. I realize that page 3 of the attached document eludes to FCC Part 15 devices. It brings to realization that these devices are also susceptible to amateur radio transmissions. It further states that in the last sentence that they have an alternate AFCI that can eliminate the interference.
http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/committees/11oesc/20101202/120210_AFCI_Submitted_by_NickBesson.pdf (http://www.cbs.state.or.us/bcd/committees/11oesc/20101202/120210_AFCI_Submitted_by_NickBesson.pdf)
Terry, W4TL
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Gotta love those last three bullets, where have I heard them before?
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Gotta love those last three bullets, where have I heard them before?
Here is a copy of the "white paper" and the three bullets that KI6LZ was referring to above:
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/AFCI_Effects_zpsacb99ca2.jpg)
For those that are interested here is a link to an Eaton You Tube Video explaining their AFCI's in layman terminology.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZfuRDNz04 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqZfuRDNz04)
Here is another thread where a "Leviton OBC AFCI Receptacle Is Sensitive to Amateur Radio Transmissions"
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=154769 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=154769)
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Looking at the "conducted" interference limits, those voltages look like an S9 signal to me. Isn't the "standard" for S9 50 micro-volts at 50 ohms. Those limits are at 50 ohms also. This sort of implies that any signal capable of producing an S9 signal using the wiring in question as an antenna could possibly cause at trip.
If my reasoning is correct, things could get very interesting during a contest where the propagation was excellent; too many strong signals all over the place at random times. A symphony of tripping breakers.
May this is the high tech equivalent of the old Branley Coherer detector of the spark gap era.
KF7CG
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Spark lives!! :-* Physics at work.
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This is from Jerry, K6LIE, in response to my email to Joel Hallas, W1ZR. Jerry is the Vice President of our radio club.
George and all,
I have been following along reading the correspondence on this issue. I also live in the same community as George Key. My concern is the labeling of the modified device. Using the word "HAM" on the updated device, to me, indicates that the ham operators are the cause of this widespread problem, when this problem is really a manufacturing design problem. The public can only relate to the person causing their breakers to shut off. Labeling the device with the word "HAM", to me, only serves to reinforce the blame to the Amateur Radio Community. Eaton is responsible in their design changes that brought this problem about. We are caught in the middle when the manufacture should have tested these devices on their own before putting them out in the field. What if homes were near a shortwave broadcaster? Should they label the breakers "SHORTWAVE"?
To me, this just shifts the blame and, like antenna restrictions, will do more harm to our hobby than good. If a manufacturer is going to design a device to detect a certain type of RF (arcing), I would think they would be mindful of all the RF out there and test their device accordingly before putting them into widespread use. Just my thoughts.
Jerry Aceto K6LIE
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This is from Jerry, K6LIE, in response to my email to Joel Hallas, W1ZR. Jerry is the Vice President of our radio club.
George and all,
I have been following along reading the correspondence on this issue. I also live in the same community as George Key. My concern is the labeling of the modified device. Using the word "HAM" on the updated device, to me, indicates that the ham operators are the cause of this widespread problem, when this problem is really a manufacturing design problem. The public can only relate to the person causing their breakers to shut off. Labeling the device with the word "HAM", to me, only serves to reinforce the blame to the Amateur Radio Community. Eaton is responsible in their design changes that brought this problem about. We are caught in the middle when the manufacture should have tested these devices on their own before putting them out in the field. What if homes were near a shortwave broadcaster? Should they label the breakers "SHORTWAVE"?
To me, this just shifts the blame and, like antenna restrictions, will do more harm to our hobby than good. If a manufacturer is going to design a device to detect a certain type of RF (arcing), I would think they would be mindful of all the RF out there and test their device accordingly before putting them into widespread use. Just my thoughts.
Jerry Aceto K6LIE
This is John Ellis, NP2B's response to the above e-mail. John lives in a community in Florida that is currently dealing with the AFCI situation. John also serves as an Assistant Director for the Southeastern Division ARRL.
Sent: Wednesday, July 16, 2014 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: AFCIs
Jerry,
Thank you for copying me on this e-mail.
You make a good argument about the
nomenclature. I am also sure that there
were some pretty red faces at Eaton
when they realized that nobody had the
presence of mind to bring in a Yaesu
FT-897 or equivalent into the lab and
see how the breakers reacted to the
RF energy field of an HF rig!
I think our answer, if confronted by anyone
who accuses ham radio of causing that
kind of interference, should be that it is a
design fault of the breaker, (which of course
it is) nobody ever had this problem before
Eaton came out with this particular model of
breaker, Eaton recognized it, fixed it and
labeled the new breakers accordingly.
We need to document this as much as
possible, so that when a ham buys a
resale in a few years, in an area where
no ham has operated before, and starts
tripping breakers all over the place, that
Eaton's responsibility remains. That is my
current concern.
John, NP2B
John Ellis (NP2B)
1149 Mockingbird Lane
The Villages, FL 32163
telephone 352 633-2910
facsimile 352 633-0401
mobile 340 513-4928
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Maybe it should be part of the stuff you have to sign when you buy a house. "Are you a ham radio operator and do you intend to operate from this location, if so, be advised.......blah,blah, blah". Sort of like a disclosure statement. Possibly non-hams should be advised on the problem.
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WOW, I just looked, we are up to over 43,000 hits since June. Could it be just curiosity or do you think that there are some others with problems out there?? ??? There are not any blogs on RFI that have anywhere near as many hits as this one (I checked all 48) and those that have over 30,000 were started a long time ago.
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Mostly curiosity here, thank goodness, trying to learn something for the future.
Thinking about the problem: Here we have an arc fault detector trying to spot and arc by its electrical (rf) signature, connected to what can be and is a random antenna that may or may not be in the presence of other higher powered rf energy. Sort of like trying to reliably detect an old spark gap signal (arc transmitter by design) in a band full of CW, modern digital modes, and SSB. Sounds like a right fun project!
KF7CG
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Looking at the "conducted" interference limits, those voltages look like an S9 signal to me. Isn't the "standard" for S9 50 micro-volts at 50 ohms. Those limits are at 50 ohms also. This sort of implies that any signal capable of producing an S9 signal using the wiring in question as an antenna could possibly cause at trip.
If my reasoning is correct, things could get very interesting during a contest where the propagation was excellent; too many strong signals all over the place at random times. A symphony of tripping breakers.
May this is the high tech equivalent of the old Branley Coherer detector of the spark gap era.
KF7CG
If I'm not mistaken, AFCI devices must meet or exceed the EN 61000-4-6 conducted susceptibility limit of 3 V (130 dBuV) from 0.15 to 80 MHz. In terms of S-units 3 volts is 96 dB over S-9. The immunity level is 84 dB above the FCC conducted noise limit of 46 dBuV.
That AFCI devices can be tripped by amateur HF emissions does not point to poor engineering. These devices no doubt meet the applicable regulatory requirements.
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I was going from the limits that were specifically mentioned in the letter saying that devices (conditions) that exceeded this standard could cause false trips. They didn't not mention that the devices had to significantly exceed the conducted noise limit.
In other words I took them at their words not a design standard. Approximately 46 micro-volts which is more or less the average conducted interference limit is indeed much less than 3000 micro-volts but that is not what was being complained about in the letter.
KF7CG
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46 db uv = 200 uv. OK?
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Not 3000 uV but 3,000,000 uV.
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Sorry about the math mistakes guys, replied on break from SQL Server and c#, and FORTRAN programming. Brain was in recovery mode. Still it looks like the conducted emissions limit can be exceeded by strong received signals, if that is the threshold no wonder our equipment can trip breakers at 400 feet.
KF7CG
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I just sent my Rocky Mountain Division Director/Vice Director this email:
Dear Brian and Dwayne, W4TL started this blog in June 2014. So far there have been over 46,000 hits, making this the most active blog in the RFI/EMI category. As Director and Vice Director of the Rocky Mountain Division, does this tell you something??
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,96949.0.html . You might want to read all 15 pages to get a sense of what’s happening.
George Key, W5YZ
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By now, we have had almost 50,000 hits on this blog. Who are you?? We'd like to hear from you. Please post on this blog and let us know why you are interested.
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It appears that the problem with the Eaton AFCI's is going to continue for a long time and may never be resolved. The reason I say this is that the troublesome AFCI's are still to this day being manufactured and installed in neighborhoods all across the United States.
I just moments ago (8:37 AM Today) got off the phone with Joe Fello and he affirmed that Eaton is still manufacturing and electrical contractors are installing these troublesome breakers all over the US. They are only using the "HAM" breakers and replacing the faulty breakers on an "as need" basis. In my opinion this is making it more difficult to correct the problem if the manufacturer is still producing the product that is causing it and electrical contractors are still installing them. In my neighborhood the electrical contractor is installing them in new homes at the rate of two homes per week.
It would really help if Eaton would make a public statement regarding the issue with their tripping AFCI's and how they intend to resolve the issue presently and in the future. Currently the only thing that eludes to the problem is what was published by the League in November of 2013. Absolutely nothing publicly from Eaton.
The ARRL has told us that the problem is self correcting with Eaton and needs no more publicity or staff time devoted to this problem. I disagree with their position on this. I pity the poor ham 10 years down the road that moves into a neighborhood loaded with these breakers and tries to get an HF station on the air.
W4TL ???
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... or a ham who has been operating in the neighborhood for years without a problem and suddenly a neighbor gets a complete remodel which includes an electrical system upgrade using the new AFCIs.
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I just got an email from an ARRL "Official" who says I'm undermining the ARRL. Go figure.
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That makes no sense. Who is this "official" and I wonder which definition of undermine he is using, to hurt, to subvert, to weaken?
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I just got an email from an ARRL "Official" who says I'm undermining the ARRL. Go figure.
I suggest that you send one of your 'bad' breakers to the official. Ask him to review it in his own breaker box ;D
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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It wouldn't do much good to ID the guy. Too bad he started getting personal. It's one thing to knock an organization, another to get personal. Sounds like thinking the organization is more important than the people who they are supposed to be serving. So far this week, four houses on the block have been retrofitted with the "HAM" AFCIs. Ten more to go. BTW, I looked at the box the HAM AFCIs come in and there is no difference in them and the old AFCIs. Lots of room for mistakes.
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And therein lies the reason that all too many hams dislike the ARRL and will not support it. Too many of the supposed 'officials' taking things concerning ham radio to personal levels. It's sad, because we all should work together to further ham radio. It seems that the ARRL is like any radio club--only the things viewed as serious to the senior officers are paid attention to--and the heck with all the rest.
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52,000 hits so far. I wish I knew who these people are.
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One can only post if a subscriber, seems to me that lots look at posts that may be relevant to them. Also as the posts increase they keep reviewing them over and over.
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For Information:
Here are photos of the instruction sheet with the subject Eaton AFCI's. It contains installation instructions and how to check the trip codes on the devices. Eaton told me a trip code "6" would indicate that it was tripped by an amateur or similar transmission. All of my affected devices indicated the 6 code as well as my neighbors.
I figure the more information we can share on this forum the better our fellow amateurs will be informed about these devices. The majority of my ham friends have never heard of an AFCI.
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/eatoninstructions_Page_2_zps615a0e90.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/eatoninstructions_Page_3_zps03cca440.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/eatoninstructions_Page_4_zps8807a323.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/eatoninstructions_Page_5_zpse2dce16a.jpg)
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George, W5YZ couldn't upload the photo of the box the breakers come in to the forum and asked me to put it up for him. He has the BR type breakers and I have the CH type. The only way to tell what’s inside is to look inside!
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Box_zps549a73c1.jpg)
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Terry- I only see one picture.
I wouldn't be surprised if Eaton had different breakers codenamed for 'Ham', 'Treadmill', 'Vacuum', 'Circular Saw', etc ;)
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Terry- I only see one picture.
I wouldn't be surprised if Eaton had different breakers codenamed for 'Ham', 'Treadmill', 'Vacuum', 'Circular Saw', etc ;)
73,
Jonathan W6GX
I can't say about the other code names for different problems. You may be absolutely correct.
I only posted George's photo of the BR type. I made a pic of the box for the CH breakers and also the back side of the actual HAM breaker. The only way to differentiate between the good and the bad is to take the actual breaker and look on the back side for a label that depicts HAM in the product code. If you go to a supply house today and buy one of these breakers rest assured it will be the faulty one.
Other potential problems that could occur because of these devices are in home life support equipment that would have the potential to shut down because the faulty AFCI tripped because of an amateur radio transmission nearby. Some of these devices are:
Kidney dialysis machine
Apnea monitor for infants (24 months and under)
Oxygen concentrator
Respirator
Ventilator
Pressure breathing therapy
Infusion feeding pump
Peritoneal dialysis machine
All of the general public and all amateurs need to know about theses faulty AFCI's.
I am also attaching a questionnaire on how for his neighbors to deal with the tripping AFCI's that was sent to a fellow ham (whom I will not name) in another part of the country that was having problems. Read this questionnaire, it's heading to me infers that "HAM Radio" is the problem and not the breaker itself. If there is not a ham nearby then there would not be a problem.
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/chafci_zps89f467c4.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/hamfront1_zpsc405f04d.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Hamback_zpsbdaa810c.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/AFCIHAMradioquestionnairemodified_zps5ee0146c.jpg)
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As I had said earlier I think there's a good reason for Eaton to continue to manufacture the 'bad' breakers despite the high costs of spending money on labor and parts to remedy false tripping by RF. I have the older style ham-friendly version. This version doesn't appear to be sold and perhaps it's the same ones that are being supplied to ham operators. Eaton's biggest headache IMHO isn't ham radio but a myriad of other household electrical equipment that cause false trippings, such as treadmills, vacuums, etc. I wonder if anyone who has the ham-friendly breakers has seen false trips on common household equipment? I don't own a treadmill and my vacuum is hard-wired to a non-AFCI outlet.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Our new house has 11 of these Eaton AFCI breakers. 5w on 17m is enough to trip them all. I'm awaiting a return call from Joe Fello to see about getting mine replaced.
73,
Mike Cizek W0VTT
St Charles MN
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Our new house has 11 of these Eaton AFCI breakers. 5w on 17m is enough to trip them all. I'm awaiting a return call from Joe Fello to see about getting mine replaced.
73,
Mike Cizek W0VTT
St Charles MN
Mike, if you are in a neighborhood that is being built by the same developer your neighbors probably have the same type of breakers and may be experiencing the same problems.
Terry, W4TL
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Our new house has 11 of these Eaton AFCI breakers. 5w on 17m is enough to trip them all. I'm awaiting a return call from Joe Fello to see about getting mine replaced.
73,
Mike Cizek W0VTT
St Charles MN
Wow. That's pretty bad. Is this on all modes or just certain modes. I believe SSB is fairly immune to the problem. At what power level could you replicate the problem in SSB? Do the test after hours so you don't drive your household members nuts, hi.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Update 3: The new Eaton breakers have been installed. A 200 Watt dead carrier on 17M and on 20M will not cause any of them to trip. With the old ones just 10 Watts was enough to trip several.
I have photos of the old and new breakers but I see that others have posted photos since I last reviewed this thread. (If anyone really needs my photos, send me a message off-thread.) The most noticeable difference between the old and new are the letters "HAM" after the part number on one side label.
Now for the disappointment...
When I first spoke to Joe Fello at Eaton, he said he would contact their area representative and arrange to have a licensed electrician replace the breakers. (Yes, I am a ham and could do it myself. But I am not a licensed electrician and did not want that to become a factor. Also, my new house is still under warranty.) Once I received the new breakers, there was no further response from Joe Fello. In the end I decided to hire a licensed electrician.
What do you think my chances are of getting Eaton to reimburse me for the electrician? (Try not to laugh too hard.) Joe Fello had asked me if he could have the old breakers back for examination. I will not be spending my time or money to package them and ship them to Eaton unless I am first reimbursed.
73 de AK2L
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Dead 200 watt carrier, what about medium speed CW at 200 watts, or any of the digital modes at available power? A signal switching on and off at the correct rate might be more prone to cause problems than a dead carrier.
I have a feeling that this problem will get worse as the expense to the manufacturer(s) gets worse. Lookout for an end run by some manufacturer other than Eaton that has problems to mount a move to have Amateur Radio declared a public nuisance in some communities.
The question becomes, once cooperation has expired, what is more important some arcane hobby or public safety?
KF7CG
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I would press Joe Felo hard to get reimbursed. They contracted with the same electrician that did our subdivision. They haven't been too reliable about showing up and have stiffed my neighbor 3 times. I contacted our local Eaton rep and had him light a fire under them. Seems to be working. Good luck on getting reimbursed (not laughing).
George, W5YZ
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AK2L- did you keep the old breakers? They are worth about $35 a piece retail. Perhaps you could recoup some costs by selling them to an electrician if Eaton fails to reimburse you.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Just make sure he doesn't install them in your neighborhood ;)
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Our new house has 11 of these Eaton AFCI breakers. 5w on 17m is enough to trip them all. I'm awaiting a return call from Joe Fello to see about getting mine replaced.
73,
Mike Cizek W0VTT
St Charles MN
Wow. That's pretty bad. Is this on all modes or just certain modes. I believe SSB is fairly immune to the problem. At what power level could you replicate the problem in SSB? Do the test after hours so you don't drive your household members nuts, hi.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
SSB?!?!? What's that?!?!?
On 17m I couldn't even key up with 5w to tune the antenna. Tried both CW and phone on lower bands. I can run a kW on 80m, 100w on 40m, sometimes 100w on 30m, and sometimes 50w on 20m. I received an email response from Eaton this morning saying they are sending me the new breakers and asking me to return the old ones. I will post both here and on QRZ after the new ones are installed and tested.
73,
Mike W0VTT
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Jonathan and Mike,
A few words of advice from someone who has been there:
1. DO NOT let Eaton send the new breakers to you. They might assume you are going to install them. Remember, this is an Eaton problem and they are responsible for all the costs associated with replacement.
2. Contact Joe Felo and have him contact his local Eaton rep. This person is responsible for contracting with an electrical contractor. Our local rep complained that this was coming out of his budget. The contractor will handle disposal of the defective AFCIs.
3. You need to run a test with all the bands and power you intend to use. THEN visit your neighbors to see if they have had any problems. Document the names and addresses of the affected homes (I had 14 homes affected. Could have been 28 but the houses on my side of the street had the "old-old" AFCIs). I wrote a letter to my neighbors pointing out the defective AFCIs that were installed in their houses and explaining that Eaton would replace them at no cost to them and at their convenience. Our contractor wanted each homeowner to contact him before he would respond.
4. Tell the ARRL (W1RFI is a good place to start along with Dave Sumner K1ZZ and Kay Craigie, N3KN) about this problem. Your Division Director and SCM might also be a good place to write. They think that it is a non-problem and publishing an article in QST solved the problem and they are tired of me yanking their chain ("Underming the ARRL"). Last time I looked, this blog had over 55,000 views, many times the most on the RFI/EMI forum in a short period of time.
You are not alone and we are here to help you if we can!
If you need to email me, my email address is gskey (at) Q (DOT) com
73, George W5YZ
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George,
I believe it was you who wondered what the interests of the people viewing this blog were. I am fortunate at this point to have no susceptible houses within range. That can change at any time though.
MY main concern is that we are dependent upon the good will of the AFCI manufacturers to remedy this problem. My fear is that when these "Ham Detectors" become widely enough distributed in some community their susceptibility to extraneous transmitters will give the community the lever it needs to disregard PRB-1 seeing as strong Amateur signals are "safety" hazard to the community and promote community discord.
KF7CG
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Sounds like another good reason to bug the ARRL.
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In case there's someone out there that hasn't seen my Youtube video of "Ham radio vs AFCIs" , you can view it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s
Nothing really happens until about 3:30 into the video when I transmit on 17 meters. You'll have to turn the sound up to hear what's going on.
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BTW, the video was made at a house more than 400 feet away from mine.
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Here is a another thread I found where the discussion was on a Levitron AFCI receptacle having problems with RF. The thread even eludes that the instructions with the device warns not to use it on a circuit that powers life support equipment because if the AFCI trips it will shut down the equipment. I don't recall seeing that warning on the AFCI breaker instructions. It appears the manufacturers know they have problems with these devices but don't really want to make it public.
Thread: Leviton OBC AFCI Receptacle Is Sensitive to Amateur Radio Transmissions
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=154769 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=154769)
W4TL
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In case there's someone out there that hasn't seen my Youtube video of "Ham radio vs AFCIs" , you can view it at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s
Nothing really happens until about 3:30 into the video when I transmit on 17 meters. You'll have to turn the sound up to hear what's going on.
I wonder why not all of the breakers will trip at 100w while some will trip at a power level of 25w.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I wonder why not all of the breakers will trip at 100w while some will trip at a power level of 25w.
My guess is that it has to do with the length of the branch circuit wiring connected to the breaker (in terms of wavelength of the transmitting frequency). The branch circuit wiring acts as an antenna that brings the RF back to the breaker. It may also depend on the location of the branch circuit wiring in relation to the transmitter antenna.
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Update 4: Tonight one of the NEW "HAM" BREAKERS TRIPPED TWICE.
I was using 50 Watts with PSK on 20 Meters.
I have notified Joe Fello at Eaton and can't wait to see what Eaton's response will be.
VERY UNHAPPY.
AK2L
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Update 4: Tonight one of the NEW "HAM" BREAKERS TRIPPED TWICE.
You said twice. Could you duplicate the problem easily or did it only tripped twice during your operation?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Update 4: Tonight one of the NEW "HAM" BREAKERS TRIPPED TWICE.
You said twice. Could you duplicate the problem easily or did it only tripped twice during your operation?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
I think it is directly related to the length of the continuous transmission. Someone has told me that if the software detects a continuous "Fault/Arc" for more than 4 seconds the AFCI will trip. I had one of my new "Ham" breakers trip yesterday morning on 14.015 Mhz when I pushed the auto tune button on my Yaesu FTdx3000 which only puts out 5 to 10 watts on transmit. The tuning cycle lasted about 5 to 7 seconds and the breaker tripped during that time. Eaton replaced all 18 of my AFCI's with the new "Ham Breakers" around the first of May. Six of the new 'Ham Breakers" tripped continuously right off the bat. Eaton sent me six of a different generation to replace the six "Ham Breakers" and they have not tripped. Eaton examined the six "Ham Breakers" and told me that they were not "ham breakers" and were in fact the troublesome breakers that had had the "Ham Breaker" label mistakenly placed on them during the manufacturing process. I thought my problem was solved until yesterday morning. I wonder if this tripping breaker is another one that has been mislabeled. I feel that those who operate CW and use the digital modes will have more problems than those who only use SSB.
Needless to say I too am very disappointed. I am now convinced these "new safety devices" that we are forced to use by Code are nothing but junk. Had I only known before I built my new home I would have chosen another device.
On another point I have been trying since June 1 to get Eaton to change out the breakers in a house directly on my left that has not sold yet. So far no results, a lot of discussion and missed communications between Eaton and their reps and their electrical contractor. I am becoming very frustrated with this whole situation. Seems like all that is offered up is excuses and no action.
I'll post some pictures of the older generation breaker later today. These have not tripped thus far.
W4TL
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>> You said twice...
Yesterday I had been running about 20 Watts (on PSK, 14.070) working a few domestic stations with no breaker problems.
Then I turned the antenna and started working an Argentina station. He had trouble hearing me so I increased the power to 50 Watts. No problem.
I turned the antenna again and worked a Cuba station at the same power level. No problem.
Lastly I head a faint Asiatic Russian station so I turned the antenna again. I tried twice to work him (at 50 Watts) and each time a specific breaker tripped. The breaker provides power to lights and a few outlets in and around my shack room. So I suspect the tripping was a combination of the power setting, the direction of the antenna and the amount of house wiring fed from that particular breaker.
That said, I am going to see if I can borrow an amplifier to test what legal limit will do. I am tired of this and want to enjoy my hobby.
73 de AK2L
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That said, I am going to see if I can borrow an amplifier to test what legal limit will do. I am tired of this and want to enjoy my hobby.
73 de AK2L
I am wondering if you have one of the mislabeled AFCI's like Eaton sent me in the beginning? No way for you to tell, Eaton will have to open it up and determine that. Attached a pictures of the last six that Eaton sent me, so far none of these six have tripped. You will note, it is a little different shaped than the "HAM" breaker and has a different product code. So far these six have not tripped. I am losing confidence in this whole process. These are from a generation of AFCI's prior to the "bad" ones.
Mike Gruber, W1MG, ARRL Lab posted this on the ARRL Forum dealing with the same subject.
" I can confirm that the troublesome RF susceptible breakers will no longer be manufactured by Eaton. They are now being phased out in favor of the new “Ham Friendly” breaker. After this transition, Eaton does not intend to manufacture both versions of their AFCI breaker."
I have been saying all along that they are still manufacturing the "bad" breakers. From ARRL's notice that they helped a manufacturer identify and resolve the problem (11/2013) until now (8/2014) Eaton has continued to manufacture and electrical contractors have continued to install these devices. I just wonder how many million of these things were manufactured in this time frame? That in my opinion has not and will not let the problem "self correct" as some have said.
Here are pictures of the older generation CH breakers that appear to work.
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/chf1_zpsc304d106.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/chf3_zpsed260f68.jpg)
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/chf2_zps50b0bb54.jpg)
My wife just this minute informed me that in talking with our neighbors across the street that I am tripping at least two houses across the street from ours. I am running 100 watts on CW on various bands.
I am very upset with all of this mess. We shouldn't have to seal with this.Eaton should have to recall every last one of these breakers nationwide and replace them at their expense.
W4TL
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Wow. What a messy situation. GL to everyone involved.
So far I have zero trips with the older 'ham friendly' AFCI breakers despite running legal limit on all modes. Fortunately my house is the only newly constructed house in a neighborhood of mostly 20+ year old homes. So my problem is only limited to my own house.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Let's hope it's just mismarked breakers. I emailed Dave Sumner, Mike Gruber and my Division Director and provided the link to here. Hopefully, they will look and add another to our over 61,000 hits.
George, W5YZ
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We have 5 of 14 houses changed to the new breakers. When they all get changed, I will run a test to see it they survive 100 watts on 40-10 meters. Got my fingers crossed.
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I just found out there are at least three across the street tripping most of their AFCI's with my 20 meter 100 watt CW transmissions.
What a mess!! Once you identify a house that is having this issue it takes about a month to get the Eaton folks to get the breakers to the electrical contractor and then them to schedule installing them.
Needless to say I am becoming frustrated with this situation. If there was anything to the Eaton Corporation they would recall everyone of their bad devices, just like the auto makers do and replace them with ones that will work in an RF environment. :( :(
George, How much time elapsed in getting them changed?
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I've been working with the local Eaton rep for at least a month. It seems that they fill an order one house at a time. I gave them an accounting by address with the number of 15 and 20 amp breakers and that's what they show up with. This really is a mess for you guys. I don't know what the outcome will be here.
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With hams moving into newer communities it's only a matter of time before Eaton has a big financial mess. I wouldn't be surprised if Eaton decides to do nothing about it once they realize how much money this is going to cost them. They need to stop manufacturing the defective breakers ASAP.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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The AFCI problem is now really becoming serious. I feel that they are simply unnecessary. Who ever heard of an arc in a home electrical system causing problems. If this were regarding aluminum wiring connected to copper connect points, as in the old manufactured homes (trailers), I could see having to address the problem. Of course, this problem has been addressed, years ago. But I don't see a need for these devices, beyond the normal breaker and the additional Ground Fault breakers, which do provide a proven measure of protection. But somehow, it appears that the AFCI has been written into the national electrical code. It should be outlawed and removed from the code. I see no purpose served by these devices, accept for a manufacture making lots of money because it is now law in the electrical code. I suspect that most electricions also have no use for them. Yet the Amateur Radio Community is taking it on the chin. Just the fact that the modified units are referred to as "HAM" units gives us a bad name. The general public does not care or consider that there is a defective breaker in their home. All they know is a ham down the street is causing a problem, when it is not our problem, but one that was brought on by poor design and, obviously, no testing before putting them in the field. The ARRL has their head in the sand when they say they have only received one complainant. The want us hams to tell them who their neighbors are and if they contacted Eaton. The problem is not with them, but simply with Eaton. The early generation of these devices have not been an issue. If we must have them, than they should revert back to the previous generation of these devices that have not been a problem.
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Did anyone ever consider that the replacement breakers may not pass all the lower level detection limits of the new code? It may well be that the way rhwe code is written that the Amateur resistant breakers can only be installed in cases of proven interference. Remember these breakers are using something similar to the sparkgap transmitter effect to determine low level series arcs.
KF7CG
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"Who ever heard of an arc in a home electrical system causing problems"
There have been plenty of such instances. The biggest problem is with broken connections in flexible extension or other lighting/small-appliance cords plugged into outlets. Example: The lamp cord develops a break inside the insulation and begins arcing. It burns thru the insulation and then starts the curtains on fire.
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Just to join the discussion. I recently moved into an apartment knowing full well that it would curtail my ham activities. My plan, even before I moved, was to use a buddistick or Magnetic Loop on the deck, keeping my operations as stealth as possible.
Much to my surprise, when I tuned with my KX3 I popped breakers. It took me a few google searches to track down the source of my problem, the AFCI breakers. My concern now is not so much popping my breakers, but popping those in the apartments in close proximity to me.
Using a dummy load at full KX3 power didn't pop any breakers, so i'm pretty confident that power radiated from an antenna is the cause, not radiation from the coax.
To make matters worse, I doubt that I can get the help of the building maintenance team.
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What antenna are you using?
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I was using a Ultimax 100 in the hall way, and then I tried a buddistick on the deck.
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The Eaton AFCI's will trip with any antenna you are using. I tried them all vertical, Buddistick, Buddipole, OCF dipole. They tripped on all of these antennas with my KX3 at 10 watts.
You need to e-mail and call Joe Fello at Eaton and cc Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab and tell them about your situation.
Good luck with resolution with your situation.
Terry, W4TL
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Yah, I dont think Eaton will be able to help without exposing me being a ham to apartment management. I've only been here for a couple weeks. Maybe I'll give it a couple months and test the waters with management.
I never in a million years considered breakers shutting me down. :(
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If you are an ARRL member you could ask them to help you in this uncomfortable situation. After all you have not committed any crimes. It doesn't hurt to ask ARRL and see what they say. GL.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I've been working with the local Eaton rep for at least a month. It seems that they fill an order one house at a time. I gave them an accounting by address with the number of 15 and 20 amp breakers and that's what they show up with. This really is a mess for you guys. I don't know what the outcome will be here.
"One house at a time." This sounds like they don't have enough of the "HAM" breakers on hand to fill the need!
I communicated with my three neighbors across the street and explained the situation to them. They were are very amiable to seeking a resolution from Eaton and having their breakers replaced. I provided them with phone numbers and e-mails of Eaton (Joe Fello & Bob Hedrick) in Pittsburg and Eatons local rep in the Atlanta area (Stephen Byl) who has yet to respond to my e-mails or phone calls to him about the problems. He is ultimately the one who has to be a liaison between Eaton in Pittsburg and the electrical contractor who will change out the breakers. I also provided them Mike Gruber's contact info at the ARRL Lab so that he can be kept in the loop too. I advised them to contact all of these individuals via e-mail and phone and advise them of the problem with breakers tripping with my HF transmissions.
This whole process takes too long to complete. Once a problem is detected we are basically off the air to keep good will with our neighbors until the breakers are fixed (4 to 6 weeks at best). You get back on the air and a week later you find another problem and the cycle starts over. I am still waiting for resolution on the house to my left that was brought to Eaton's attention the first of June. In my opinion that is entirely too long to wait for action.
Maybe this is what they meant when the comment was made that the problems will "self correct." They may be waiting for the amateurs who are affected to give up and "go away."
Terry, W4TL :(
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Brian, you have a case I haven't thought about. Maybe you should ask the ARRL for their advice. Since they have this situation well in hand, I'm sure they can help you. You might start with your Division Director, N5ZGT, (another Brian) and see what he suggests. Dave Sumner, K1ZZ and ED W1RFI might be good also. Someday, the ARRL is going to have to start offering legal help because there will be cases where your privileges to operate will be challenged because of perceived nuisance. I've asked the ARRL to look at this blog but I don't know whether they have. But over 60,000 people have!
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I was waiting a bit to see if I would get progress on my issues with the Eaton AFCI breakers, but no such luck yet. So I'll give some details of my saga, in case it's of any assistance to anyone here:
- I first noticed that operating on HF blew my own breakers (first I had heard of AFCI breakers)
- After having this problem for a while, I began doing some research and found articles related to known issues with these Eaton AFCI breakers and RF causing nuisance trips. The articles indicated that I should contact Joe Fello and Bob Hedrick at Eaton.
- I ended up speaking with Joe (a very nice Fello; pardon the pun) and he indicated that - if I'm having trips, it's likely that my adjacent neighbors were having trips. He recommended that I contact my neighbors and find out (a) if they have been having these breakers mysteriously trip and (b) verify that they were Eaton AFCI breakers. He indicated that it was his desire to get a list of the homes and the quantity of breakers and get this done all at the same time. (Makes sense so far)
- Joe asked me to find out who the electrical contractor was that wired the homes and had someone in my Dallas Eaton office speak with the electrical contractor. (Actually, I spoke to the contractor first and he told me that these things have been nothing but trouble for them and that everything from hair dryers and vacuum cleaners to nearby train traffic and ham radio gear was causing these things to trip... thus, the electricians were quite often called back on these.)
- The neighborhood has a Facebook page... so I stepped out on-a-limb, posted a picture of my breakers and asked the entire 29 home community if they were having mysterious trips of these breakers. About four home-owners responded. One home-owner had brought an electrical contractor to his house on a few occasions and they could find nothing... but he was concerned his house was going to burn down.
- So I collected name/addresses, verified manufacturer was Eaton, quantities... and provided this information to Joe Fello (in his defense, this was about when he went on vacation and he may have gotten 10,000 emails while he was away).
- Meanwhile, in order to avoid annoying the neighbors, I stopped transmitting.
- Weeks go by and nothing happens.
- I contact Joe. He sends this questionnaire titled "Ham Radio Questionnaire - Possible HAM radio interference causing unwanted tripping of your circuit breakers" and asked me to have the neighbors fill it out (it asked for name/address, picture of the breakers, quantities, date/time of last trip). I objected to sending this for two reasons. One - I had already provided all this information to Eaton (except the date time of the last trip; given that I had stopped, they may not remember). And two - singling out ham radio in the questionnaire really makes it look as though ham radio is the only reason why these things would trip (and given the conversation I had with the electrical contractor, I know that's not true). But Joe told me that I should start transmitting again so they could collect some data.
- Well, not a single neighbor filled out the questionnaire. I'm assuming that's because (a) they had already provided the information through me and (b) they had no recent trips, because I had stopped transmitting.
- So I started transmitting over the weekend and two home-owners complained. (Didn't we escape all this RFI stuff when cable TV replaced the antenna in houses??)
- I contacted Joe today and he said they're still waiting on these questionnaires to be returned. (ugh)
So as of today, I'm trying to gather up the information that I already provided about this and get some movement on it. But it's been a LONG time.
ADVICE:
When you contact Joe... very nice guy... just get the questionnaires up-front. Don't quiz the neighbors until you have it. It will only add to the confusion.
I'll keep you posted.
This is a bad deal and puts a black eye in ham radio... a valuable service to the community.
Mike, WA9PIE
PS: At the bottom of this questionnaire is this:
"We have the technology in our breakers to verify if they have tripped. As a first action, we will send out the contractor to extract the trip codes from the breakers. If we find that the breakers contain a trip code identifying HAM radio interference, the breakers will be replaced."
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It's time for all of you to email Dave Sumner, K1ZZand Ed Hare W1RFI. They're tired of hearing from me. Also Kay Craigie N3KN. Unless they get feedback from you guys they will still contend that this problem has been "solved". Mike, since you have a large database of customers maybe you could ask them if they have had problems.
George, W5YZ
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I was using a Ultimax 100 in the hall way, and then I tried a buddistick on the deck.
These antennas both work against a counterpoise and the apartment AC power wiring will - unless sufficiently decoupled - become part of the counterpoise. When functioning as a counterpoise the AC power wiring will have increased common-mode RF current that may trip an AFCI device.
In your case the KX3 can be operated isolated from AC power using only internal batteries. If the RFI issue does not improve, compared to being powered off AC power, additional decoupling is not warranted.
In general, a balanced antenna such as a dipole having sufficient feedline common-mode decoupling may induce less RF into the apartment AC power system than the two antennas tried.
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Regarding emailing league officials...
I'm all for it. That said - I've tried to get them to take action on other matters and they're not very action-oriented.
Just my opinion...
Mike, WA9PIE
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I was using a Ultimax 100 in the hall way, and then I tried a buddistick on the deck.
These antennas both work against a counterpoise and the apartment AC power wiring will - unless sufficiently decoupled - become part of the counterpoise. When functioning as a counterpoise the AC power wiring will have increased common-mode RF current that may trip an AFCI device.
In your case the KX3 can be operated isolated from AC power using only internal batteries. If the RFI issue does not improve, compared to being powered off AC power, additional decoupling is not warranted.
In general, a balanced antenna such as a dipole having sufficient feedline common-mode decoupling may induce less RF into the apartment AC power system than the two antennas tried.
I agree with WX7G's statement, however my breakers continued to trip while operating a Buddipole in dipole configuration and my KX3 with 10 watts and all cables, etc. outside and being powered by an external Honda generator. Nothing even close to the house wiring. Point is this devices trip by RF saturation absorbed into the electrical wiring.
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For the record... I get the same result from a dipole or hexbeam that I get with a vertical (re: common mode currents).
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Update 5: A SECOND breaker from the set of NEW "HAM" breakers has tripped.
100 Watts, SSB, 20 meters.
Joe Fello has responded to my last email. (I believe he was away on vacation.) I informed him of the second breaker failure and am awaiting more information.
73 de AK2L
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I spoke briefly with the apartment maintenance guy, he basically said that the owner of the complex would not be interested in changing out the breakers in my apartment let alone those adjacent to me, even if it was free...
He also said that there had been no complaints about breakers popping, so it might just be my apartment. I told him that I'm going to do some experimentation to see if I affect the neighbors. He said that he'd text me if anyone complained.
regardless on the effect on the neighbors, If the complex owner wont allow me to change my breakers out, then I'm still probably screwed.
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I was using a Ultimax 100 in the hall way, and then I tried a buddistick on the deck.
These antennas both work against a counterpoise and the apartment AC power wiring will - unless sufficiently decoupled - become part of the counterpoise. When functioning as a counterpoise the AC power wiring will have increased common-mode RF current that may trip an AFCI device.
In your case the KX3 can be operated isolated from AC power using only internal batteries. If the RFI issue does not improve, compared to being powered off AC power, additional decoupling is not warranted.
In general, a balanced antenna such as a dipole having sufficient feedline common-mode decoupling may induce less RF into the apartment AC power system than the two antennas tried.
I was operating on battery power. I suspect that my problem was caused by a high swr of both antennas I tried, and that a magnetic loop on the deck, tuned with a antenna analyzer before transmitting may help.
I did find that transmitting into a dummy load with max power of the KX3, on a DC power supply, did not trip breakers.
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Yes a magnetic loop might help and so would anything else that decreases the radiated power or absorbs it and turns it to heat. If the antenna is efficient it will provide more signal to the receiving antenna which is the apartment wiring.
Still a question to answer, what is the arc detection capabilities of each of the two breaker types?
KF7CG
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Yes a magnetic loop might help and so would anything else that decreases the radiated power or absorbs it and turns it to heat. If the antenna is efficient it will provide more signal to the receiving antenna which is the apartment wiring.
Still a question to answer, what is the arc detection capabilities of each of the two breaker types?
KF7CG
Efficient antenna for an apartment? I've never seen one.
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With an efficient antenna (3 element yagi) at 80' AGL I'm able to trip the AFCI breakers. Antennas have nothing to do with the problem. The breakers don't care where or how the RF is radiated. Once they detect enough RF over the detection threshold the breakers will trip. Running very low power levels is not a practical solution.
As to writing to ARRL I will do my part. I was personally affected by this problem in 2012. Although I don't have any issues anymore I feel the pain suffered by those affected.
Lastly if the bad breakers could store a specific code for 'ham radio interference' then why doesn't Eaton make the improved versions more accessible?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Everybody: Let us know what the ARRL says when you write them.
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"Antennas have nothing to do with the problem"
That's like saying that antennas have nothing to do with your ability to work DX. The breaker is more likely to trip:
1) The more power the antenna radiates in the direction of the breaker wiring.
2) The closer the antenna is to the breaker wiring.
3) If the antenna has common mode currents that follow the feed line back into the house and close to the breaker wiring.
It is also probable that the breaker wiring picks of more of your radiated RF when the length of that wiring approaches a resonant length on the frequency you are transmitting. That could account for the breaker being affected by some bands and not by others or only some breakers tripping.
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Lastly if the bad breakers could store a specific code for 'ham radio interference' then why doesn't Eaton make the improved versions more accessible?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
According to Joe Fello the Eaton AFCI's do store a specific code that would indicate a trip caused by radio interference. The way you can tell is to turn the breaker "OFF." You then press the "TEST" button and while holding it in turn the breaker back "ON." You then release the "TEST" button and count the number of "FLASHES" in the LED window. It will count out a sequence on flashes and recount until you hit the TEST button again. If you count the number of flashes as 6 you can 95% rest assured it was an RF signal that tripped your Eaton AFCI. All of the ones of mine that I tested and those of my affected neighbors had the CODE 6.
The entire testing process is explained in
Reply #223 on: July 25, 2014, 01:25:30 PM in the instructions that accompany the AFCI's.
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According to Joe Fello the Eaton AFCI's...
Gee, that would have been nice to know.
When I first contacted Eaton, I identified myself as a ham and that information was never passed along.
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"Antennas have nothing to do with the problem"
Sure. Antennas have a lot to do with it. By disconnecting the antenna the problem goes away ;)
The reason why I said antennas have nothing to do with the problem is this. It takes sufficient RF to trip the breakers. The more efficient the antenna the more the RF at a given power level. So basically to minimize the nuisance trips one has to reduce the amount the RF present. No RF means no ham radio. I can't think of any practical solution that is based on the type of antenna. What antenna allows you make radio contacts that doesn't generate RF?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I see your point. My point is that certain antenna types and installations can make matters worse - not that some "magic" antenna type can prevent tripping in all cases. For example, if you had a Yagi on an tower that is located 150 feet away from the house and had no common mode currents on the coax feed line then your problems would likely be minimal. If you have a dipole in the attic or some type of portable antenna positioned close to the house then your problems are likely to be much more serious.
At any rate the breakers should not be susceptible to RFI tripping.
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if you had a Yagi on an tower that is located 150 feet away from the house and had no common mode currents on the coax feed line then your problems would likely be minimal. If you have a dipole in the attic or some type of portable antenna positioned close to the house then your problems are likely to be much more serious.
I do see your point as well. However most likely one doesn't know that there's a problem once the concrete has been poured, the tower erected, the antenna hoisted up, and the maiden RF signal is generated. Practically speaking once a ham has been affected by this problem there's isn't much he/she could do in regards to solving the problem other than changing out the breakers. I don't consider running QRP as a solution unfortunately...
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Another note, 5 watts at 400 feet in a neighboring house doesn't sound like common mode feedback. The problem occurs wherever and whenever the RF signal strength at a breaker exceeds some value, X. X being frequency and transmission mode dependent. At least on 17 meters it would seem that the better it radiates the more it trips. That is probably true but with a higher power required on the other bands.
KF7CG
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I agree. I think the common mode issue came up with the guy that was trying antennas in the apartment hallway and on the deck.
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If I'm looking at the correct test, an AFCI must be immune to 3 VRMS, 80% AM from 0.15 MHz to 230 MHz common-mode RF. The AFCI is looking for differential-mode fault events. When subjected to RF the AC wiring in a house, one might think that the injected RF is purely common-mode. However, due to asymmetries between the GND, neutral, and line wires there is some common-mode to differential-mode conversion. So, I suspect that the AFCI was designed for and successfully passed the 3 volt common-mode injection test yet it can fail in a real world situation.
I've run some NEC simulations with simplified house AC wiring and when illuminating it with a plane wave a substantial differential voltage is created between line and neutral.
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If I'm looking at the correct test, an AFCI must be immune to 3 VRMS, 80% AM from 0.15 MHz to 230 MHz common-mode RF. The AFCI is looking for differential-mode fault events. When subjected to RF the AC wiring in a house, one might think that the injected RF is purely common-mode. However, due to asymmetries between the GND, neutral, and line wires there is some common-mode to differential-mode conversion. So, I suspect that the AFCI was designed for and successfully passed the 3 volt common-mode injection test yet it can fail in a real world situation.
I've run some NEC simulations with simplified house AC wiring and when illuminating it with a plane wave a substantial differential voltage is created between line and neutral.
I have two spare 'ham' version of the AFCI breakers. If anyone wants to do some testing between the 'ham' version and the 'bad' version I'm willing to ship one of my 'ham' breakers and cover shipping costs both ways. One interesting test would be at what power level is needed to make the 'ham' breaker trip. I have these 'ham' breakers and so far I have zero trips despite running legal limit power.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Send them to Mike Gruber since they only tested the prototypes. Might ask him first since they said they weren't going to test any more AFCIs.
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Does the ARRL know the 'bad' breakers are still being used? I'll send an email to Mike to see if he's interested in doing more tests.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Does the ARRL know the 'bad' breakers are still being used? I'll send an email to Mike to see if he's interested in doing more tests.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
I've been e-mailing Mike today and he is interested in testing one of my "HAM" breakers that is still tripping. I'm sure he would like to test one of the good "HAM" breakers too. I plan to ship mine to him next week.
In looking at the date code on the tripping "HAM" breakers my two have the same code "140219" this is the same code as the six "HAM" breakers I sent back to Eaton after they continually tripped. Eaton advised that they had been mislabeled in manufacturing. Don't know how many were made in that batch.
Jonathan, what is the date code on your "HAM" breakers?
Terry, W4TL
Terry, W4TL
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Jonathan, what is the date code on your "HAM" breakers?
Mine says 111017. I assume it meant Oct. 17th 2011. If you recall my problem occurred in Jan. 2012. Mine doesn't have the 'ham' designation on it. It's one of the earlier versions of AFCI. I have a suspicion that mine doesn't nuisance trip on RF but it nuisance trips on other devices. Perhaps that's why Eaton went to the newer 'bad' breakers. Mine doesn't have the diagnostic LED however Eaton told me it does store the fault code.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I just sent an email to Mike Gruber offering to send mine to ARRL for testing.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Jonathan, what is the date code on your "HAM" breakers?
Mine says 111017. I assume it meant Oct. 17th 2011. If you recall my problem occurred in Jan. 2012. Mine doesn't have the 'ham' designation on it. It's one of the earlier versions of AFCI. I have a suspicion that mine doesn't nuisance trip on RF but it nuisance trips on other devices. Perhaps that's why Eaton went to the newer 'bad' breakers. Mine doesn't have the diagnostic LED however Eaton told me it does store the fault code.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
As you say it looks as though you have an older version that is not affected by amateur HF transmissions. Eaton sent me six of this type and they have not failed.
Terry, W4TL
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Eaton's Sales Engineer for the Atlanta area reached out to me this morning. He advised that they have hired an electrical contractor (not the same contractor that is doing the work for the builder in this development) to come in sometime in the next few days and change out the affected homes that have been identified. He advised that they should start the work in the next few days.
I'll inform the group when the work is done.
Terry, W4TL
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Eaton's Sales Engineer for the Atlanta area...
Terry,
How many days are there between your first conversation with Eaton and the projected arrival date of the electrician?
73 de AK2L
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Here's the response I received from Mike Gruber, W1MG.
Jonathan,
Eaton has a new model breaker that should be on the market soon, if not already. It is an improved version of the breaker, and should be Ham friendly. In fact, we tested the prototypes here in the Lab and there were no issues.
Eaton is presently replacing the problematic breakers with the new version – not the old. A subset of the old breakers, however, were mislabeled as new model breakers. These breakers appear to be the new version but still nuisance trip. Eaton has identified the problematic date code and replacing these breakers with the new version.
If you have a spare version of the breaker I’d be interested in taking a look at it. Thanks for your offer. I assume that you would like it returned?
73,
Mike Gruber, W1MG
ARRL EMC Engineer
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Eaton's Sales Engineer for the Atlanta area...
Terry,
How many days are there between your first conversation with Eaton and the projected arrival date of the electrician?
73 de AK2L
We, and the affected neighbors all contacted Eaton this Monday August 4th. The local Eaton Rep contacted me yesterday, August 7th, and advised that they "We’ve hired an Eaton Certified Electrician to make service calls in your neighborhood and swap out the AFCI breakers." I asked him when we could expect contact and he said in a couple of days. I am hoping the electrician to will make contact with the affected parties early next week to schedule appointments with them. I will post back when we hear the contact has been made and when the breakers have been changed out.
Terry, W4TL
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Send them to Mike Gruber since they only tested the prototypes. Might ask him first since they said they weren't going to test any more AFCIs.
I wonder if the ARRL is testing the breakers using the standard common-mode injection test? It looks like differential-mode testing is needed to reveal the real-world immunity. I'm an EMC design consultant (I design equipment, such as the AFCI, to meet EMC regulations) but I don't have the equipment for testing. Any testing I do is performed at an EMC lab at more than $200 an hour for their time and facilities.
This thread came up at a good time as I'm currently doing the EMC design for an industrial product (that could be subjected to amateur radio transmissions) and attention is being paid to differential-mode immunity as well as making it immune to real-world EM fields.
Dave Cuthbert
NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
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Who knows??? Something good could come of this :)
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Here's the response I received from Mike Gruber, W1MG.
...Eaton has identified the problematic date code...
What is the date code of the mislabeled units?
73 de AK2L
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I posted here a few weeks ago. Our new house has 11 Eaton AFCI breakers that tripped at very low power levels on some bands; less than 5w on 17m. I requested new breakers on 29 July, received them on 4 Aug, and installed and tested them today (8 Aug). They appear to be good at a KW on 80-10m (no 160m antenna yet). Antenna is an 80m open wire dipole 50' high and about 40' from the house at the closest point.
73,
Mike W0VTT
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Great!
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Here's the response I received from Mike Gruber, W1MG.
...Eaton has identified the problematic date code...
What is the date code of the mislabeled units?
73 de AK2L
The date code is 140219, which means year 2014 month February day 19 (February 19, 2014) these are the mislabeled breakers and still trip with HF RF even though they show the HAM designation on the label. A picture is attached showing the label.
Terry, W4TL
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/Hamback_zpsbdaa810c.jpg)
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The date code is 140219...
Thanks Terry. I have at least one with that date; it was tripping and I replaced it temporarily with a standard breaker.
I will examine the remaining breakers and note their date codes.
73 de AK2L
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The ones across the street from me are numbered 120726. This jives with when they were built.
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Eaton's Sales Engineer for the Atlanta area...
Terry,
How many days are there between your first conversation with Eaton and the projected arrival date of the electrician?
73 de AK2L
8) Just a few minutes ago got a call from Eatons elctrical contractor to schedule replacement of the faulty breakers for me and my neighbors. They have my replacements scheduled this Thursday and my neighbors scheduled next Monday. They were notified on Monday April 4 and will do mine this Thursday (10 days) and my 3 neighbors next Monday (2 weeks). If they can field the notifications and change them out within 10 days to 2 weeks that is great. They called the neighbors before they called me, they could have had personal scheduling conflicts for the earlier date.
;D "OORAH" ;D
Terry, W4TL
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My electrical contractor wants each resident to call for scheduling. We have 7/14 completed.
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This thing is going to be getting worse, I think. The 2014 NEC now requires any branch circuit that has repair work done on it (like replacing a defective outlet) to have the breaker replaced with an AFCI type. Over time, AFCIs are going to start showing up in older homes.
I've been reading some of the electrician's forums and it appears that Eaton is not the only mfg having issues with false tripping due to RFI. Eaton appears to be the only one doing anything about it. One ham posted that his 100W HF station was tripping AFCI breakers and was told that 100W is way too much power to be running from a residence. ;D
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yep, they will be replaced. you touch a circuit, it has to meet current code. that practically means unless your panel is an old arcwelder like a Bulldog, FPE, or Zinser/Sylvania that can't take one, you get the breaker replaced with AFCI.
and it could mean if the inspector hasn't used enough red ink this month, you need to choke out for a new panel, and it ALL gets AFCI.
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Just a few minutes ago got a call from Eatons elctrical contractor...
Terry,
When the electrician arrives to swap your breakers, please note the date code for each of the new devices. (Since they cannot be read once installed.)
And of course we all look forward to your test results afterward.
73 de AK2L
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We will be running a test Saturday on a ham about a quarter mile from my house. He has a flagpole antenna and a rig that can run 400 watts. We plan to have several hams from our club to monitor the test. Someone will report the results after the test.
George, W5YZ
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Just a few minutes ago got a call from Eatons elctrical contractor...
Terry,
When the electrician arrives to swap your breakers, please note the date code for each of the new devices. (Since they cannot be read once installed.)
And of course we all look forward to your test results afterward.
73 de AK2L
??? ??????Well the electrical contractor arrived this morning to change out one of my neighbors across the street. The date code on the AFCI's was 140605 (June 5, 2014 run #0232481) picture attached. Eaton had sent me 12 AFCI's yesterday to change out the remaining bad date code breakers in my panel. PROBLEM THEY HAD THE SAME DATE CODE AS THE MISLABELED HAM AFCI's 140219 (February 19, 2014). ??? What is going on I said. Well we installed one and guess what it tripped right off the bat. Is Eaton playing with me or what? Well, he was going to change out another neighbor across the street and I asked him to install one of the 140605 date code AFCI's in the same slot as the one of mine that tripped. We fired up the transmitter and guess what the 140605 AFCI tripped too. The neighbor across the street with the new breakers did not show any trips so maybe he will be OK (he is probably 100 feet from the antenna). During the testing my next door neighbor came out and we had tripped another one of his HAM breakers that were installed the first of May (he is on my right side and our houses are about 15 feet apart).
My observation and assumption is one of two things and maybe part of both. The first is that Eatons new HAM breakers will not tolerate HF RF in a close field proximity (20 to 25 feet from the antenna). I tested on two frequencies 14.015 Mhz and 18.130 Mhz. Letting the auto tuner in the Yaesu FT3000 tune both frequencies with 5 to 10 watts output in the tune cycle and again key down CW transmissions with 100 watts output for 5 to 6 seconds. The breaker tripped on both sequence of tests. The other assumption is that the 140605 breakers may have been mislabeled too.
They are sending the 140605 date code breaker back to Eaton for evaluation. Another month to wait on Eaton!!
I have been very patient in trying to work through this situation since I discovered the problem around April 1st of this year. This has been ongoing for 4 1/2 months, in my opinion entirely too long. Eaton has a product although it has been redesigned to filter out RF does not quite fit the bill for what it is supposed to do in close proximity to an amateur transmitter. This is not my problem but Eaton's problem.
Because of Eaton's inferior product I have not been able to enjoy my hobby of over 50 years. I can't transmit now for fear of tripping one of my neighbors EATON AFCI's and shutting his freezer down while he is away from home.
More news about AFCI and Code. The electrician told me today that if he has to change out a receptacle on an existing house with a branch circuit that has a conventional breaker that he has to also replace the conventional breaker with an AFCI. Get ready guys it's going to affect everybody sooner or later even if you live in an older home with conventional breakers. The manufacturers are going to ram these things down the throats of everyone where they like it or not.
Just for other info too, Eaton is still manufacturing the problematic AFCI's until their supply of circuit boards runs out. Possibly sometime in November of this year. How many will they still have in inventory to distribute to their supply houses until they go away? Probably at least 2 years before the HAM breaker will be on the shelves.
Terry, W4TL
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/140605_zps7efb1648.jpg)
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We will be running a test Saturday on a ham about a quarter mile from my house. He has a flagpole antenna and a rig that can run 400 watts. We plan to have several hams from our club to monitor the test. Someone will report the results after the test.
George, W5YZ
400 watts transmitted into a vertical on 14 MHz from a 1/4 mile away will produce a field of 70 mV/m. Different antennas will produce more or less but the field will still be relatively low. For example, 1 watt from 100 feet away produces three times the field.
As I mentioned before, Eton might be modifying the AFCI breakers to withstand X amount of common-mode signal. However, in a home environment the signal can appear as a differential-mode signal. The design and test method appears to be flawed; it looks to be cut-and-try. Faster progress could be made if Eton takes CM and DM signal measurements at the breaker in a real installation (your home) and uses that data to develop a real world EMC stimulus to design to. Once the real stimulus is known the redesign can be done on paper rather than what appears to be cut-and-try. This type of problem can be solved in a couple of weeks when attacked the right way.
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"Because of Eaton's inferior product I have not been able to enjoy my hobby of over 50 years. I can't transmit now for fear of tripping one of my neighbors EATON AFCI's and shutting his freezer down while he is away from home."
Eaton caused the problem but it now becomes YOUR problem unfortunately. From what I read, Eaton is not the only AFCI mfg having the problem. Electricians are going nuts with all the trouble calls from AFCI breaker false trips and they are not all caused by hams. I predict that a lot of hams will be going off the air unless the NEC finds a better solution for these things. The freezer is bad enough but what about the person who has some sort of life support equipment in his home? It's probably possible that someone could even be criminally charged by an unknowing prosecutor for transmitting and tripping off a breaker connected to someone's life support.
I think the ARRL really needs to get more involved in tracking down these problems and bringing it to the forefront. They need to come out to a few typical residential ham installations, take real life measurements, and come up with some realistic RFI acceptance tests for the AFCIs or all brands. I question whether their tests in the ARRL lab are realistic enough.
Maybe the NEC needs to require the use of BX armored cable and metal boxes in all new homes. That would minimize damage to in wall wiring and lessen the need for AFCI breakers.
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Eaton is well aware of this issue as early as Jan 2012, and possibly even earlier. I know because I had contacted them back in Jan 2012.
I have sent a 'good' early version AFCI to Mike Gruber at ARRL for testing. If this breaker is deemed good by ARRL my hope is that the results will be given to Eaton. I will keep everyone posted should I hear something from Mike.
In the meantime if someone is contacting Eaton you could ask them about the version of 'good' breaker that I have. Perhaps Eaton could locate some and use them to alleviate the tripping issue. I posted the model number and date code in an earlier post. I have zero issues with mine despite running legal limit on all modes and on all bands.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Eaton is well aware of this issue as early as Jan 2012, and possibly even earlier. I know because I had contacted them back in Jan 2012.
I have sent a 'good' early version AFCI to Mike Gruber at ARRL for testing. If this breaker is deemed good by ARRL my hope is that the results will be given to Eaton. I will keep everyone posted should I hear something from Mike.
In the meantime if someone is contacting Eaton you could ask them about the version of 'good' breaker that I have. Perhaps Eaton could locate some and use them to alleviate the tripping issue. I posted the model number and date code in an earlier post. I have zero issues with mine despite running legal limit on all modes and on all bands.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Jonathan, I don't know what series breaker you have but I don't think Eaton is at all interested in reverting back to an older generation of AFCI to help the problem. The only one that will work satisfactorily in my house is the CH115CAFA Eaton AFCI. Here is part of an e-mail I received from Eaton's local rep this afternoon after he approached him with that same question.
"Terry, I just spoke with Lanson (Joe Fello's boss at Eaton) and he does not want to send any CH115CAFA breaker as it is outdated technology that may present future nuisance tripping issues. Immediately, we are sending the CHFCAF115HAM (date code 140605) breakers that tripped today to our engineering team to confirm these are programed with the HAM function."
I asked him to ask "Lanson" if he wasn't receptive to using the older generation AFCI what his planned to use here in my neighborhood since the CHFCAF115HAM did not work satisfactorily. Still waiting on a response from that.
I too am going to send an AFCI to Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab which will be one of the HAM breakers that continues to trip for his evaluation. We will have to wait on those results too. I had spoken with Mike last week and he is on vacation this week and will return this coming Monday.
Terry, W4TL
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Here is a an Eaton YouTube Video dated July 23, 2014 describing in detail about AFCI's, what they do and what causes them to trip. They don't refer to amateur radio directly but do refer to High Frequency Noise as being a cause and also that the length of the wiring, including drop cords as serving as antennas. It is a very good video and very informative. It is presented by Lanson Relyea, Product Manager, Residential Breakers and Surge Protection for Eaton. This is the best video I have seen explaining these devices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngQ3I7mS7o8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngQ3I7mS7o8)
Terry, W4TL
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:-\Don't read this just before bedtime!
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Jonathan, I don't know what series breaker you have but I don't think Eaton is at all interested in reverting back to an older generation of AFCI to help the problem. The only one that will work satisfactorily in my house is the CH115CAFA Eaton AFCI. Here is part of an e-mail I received from Eaton's local rep this afternoon after he approached him with that same question.
"Terry, I just spoke with Lanson (Joe Fello's boss at Eaton) and he does not want to send any CH115CAFA breaker as it is outdated technology that may present future nuisance tripping issues. Immediately, we are sending the CHFCAF115HAM (date code 140605) breakers that tripped today to our engineering team to confirm these are programed with the HAM function."
I asked him to ask "Lanson" if he wasn't receptive to using the older generation AFCI what his planned to use here in my neighborhood since the CHFCAF115HAM did not work satisfactorily. Still waiting on a response from that.
I too am going to send an AFCI to Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab which will be one of the HAM breakers that continues to trip for his evaluation. We will have to wait on those results too. I had spoken with Mike last week and he is on vacation this week and will return this coming Monday.
Terry, W4TL
Here is an excerpt of a response I got from my local Eaton Rep. yesterday afternoon 8/14. We will see if anything really happens or if this is just more "Smoke and Mirrors".
" Terry,
You have been more than patient through this process and you’re correct, 4½ months is unacceptable. Lanson is directly involved in resolving this and he has directed his team to make this priority one.
I have confirmed, we are shipping all new breakers as soon as they have been individually tested and endorsed as required. We plan to have all breakers tested and shipped by tomorrow.
I will continue to keep you informed as we make progress.
Sincerely,
********
Sales Engineer
Eaton Corporation
7000 Highlands Parkway
Here is my response to them.
"********,
Thanks for your response.
Eaton's prompt action and resolution of this situation will affirm your company's commitment to provide a superior quality product with unmatched services and technical expertise. Hopefully this will be resolved soon but we are still waiting.
I am still somewhat apprehensive that your CHFCAF115HAM AFCI will not work entirely in my home. We plugged one of the new HAM breakers in yesterday with a 140605 date code and it too tripped immediately. The only ones that work without fail in my home and Mr. Hughes, my next door neighbor are the CH115CAFA AFCI.
Regards,
Terry Jones"
Waiting to see what happens now!! The ARRL Lab should have one of my Eaton "HAM" breakers on Monday for testing.
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I noticed in one of Mike Gruber's emails that they had "tested the prototypes" under severe conditions. Prototypes are generally hand built and may or may not be the same as the production models. Terry, now that you are sending him one of the production models, we may get more "real world" results.
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Brian, KA7KDX, I put in a word about you in an email to "the ARRL" last night asking them what they might do for you. Specifically, I asked your whether your Division Director, another Brian (N5ZGT) or your SCM (whose call I don't know) could contact you. Maybe you could send the other Brian an email explaining your situation. He is tired of hearing from me. I guess we might find out HOW or IF they are just sit on the sidelines and watch things unfold.
Good luck Brian and 73, George, W5YZ
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Thanks for the update Terry. Do you know if the one you sent to ARRL is in fact the ham version or a mislabeled version? Is it possible that Eaton had not produced any real ham version? Does anyone have a ham version that works? It could be possible that the prototype ARRL tested does work but due to manufacturing error none of them were actually made.
So my assumption is correct that they stopped making the older ham-friendly version because of nuisance tripping on treadmills and vacuums. I could understand their position not wanting to send any of these to a ham. Luckily I don't own a treadmill and my central vacuum is plugged into a non-AFCI outlet.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I just finished watching the 49min. long video. It is indeed very informative.
It looks like the Canadian hams will now get screwed ;)
I have a portable vacuum and I'm going to try it on my AFCI to see if it trips. If it does this confirms what Eaton had said that they don't want to produce any more of the older style 'ham friendly' AFCIs.
I'm pretty confident that Eaton will get the false tripping issue figured out. It was indicated in the video that their R&D is now focused on designing a better product that reduces nuisance tripping.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I'll play the bad guy and say that the problem will not get solved. The ability to only distinguish the arcs deemed hazardous and reject all other noise sources is not easily accomplished and may be impossible with the DSP processing that can be incorporated into the breaker.
We have only scratched the surface, have not heard of 1500 watts with large beams/verticals being used yet.
My confidence that this will be figured out is very low at this time. I guess we wait and see.
Definitely not happy that they put the name "ham" on them.
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I'm pretty confident that Eaton will get the false tripping issue figured out. It was indicated in the video that their R&D is now focused on designing a better product that reduces nuisance tripping.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
It may indeed be figured out one of these days but what about the millions of these "bad for amateur radio" breakers that are already installed and those that are still being manufactured as we speak. Eaton has not yet changed their production over to the so called "HAM Breakers". That's not going to happen until later this year. The breakers may be named correctly just reverse the designation to "Break HAMS" to get the real meaning.
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Just finished the testing at W5IV (Bob) with the following results:
Three houses were affected including Bob's
At Bob's house all bands but 10 meters resulted in popping almost all of his AFCIs.
The other two houses adjacent to Bob suffered various numbers of tripping by band 12-30 meters. We were not able to get his antenna to load up on 40 meters.
Bob lives at the end of a street with no houses on one side and none behind. If there were houses on the other side, the number would have been five. Who knows about the houses behind.
We will soon be testing at Larry's (NM5LS) house. He lives in a more congested area so we expect the results to be different.
I've not heard from anybody at the ARRL regarding my last message to them. I'm sure they don't want to hear from me again. I just hope they can help Brian with his apartment troubles. This is the kind of situation we have been warning them of for some time now.
Looks like we are almost at 80,000 views. I wish we had more posters.
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I'll play the bad guy and say that the problem will not get solved. The ability to only distinguish the arcs deemed hazardous and reject all other noise sources is not easily accomplished and may be impossible with the DSP processing that can be incorporated into the breaker.
We also said the same thing when leaded gas was phased out in favor of unleaded gas. New technology has its teething pains but eventually the bugs get worked out, I hope...
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Yeah, and call for papers on pulling signals out of the noise have been solicited for as far back as I can remember. Even with all the processing power we have we still can't pull SSB signals out below a low threshold.
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There are certain laws of physics that we can't violate no matter how much technology we have. Changes happen very quickly in the beginning and then get slower as we approach the limits. It's like the old saying that it takes 20% of the money to reach 80% of the goal and 80% of the money to reach the last 20% of the goal.
I'm not saying that it is impossible to design an AFCI that will reliable detect a series arc fault while always rejecting RFI, arcing motor brushes and all other causes of false trips - but it isn't going to be easy or cheap.
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I read through a number of the 23 pages here.
Let me respond with a bit of background.
When reports of AFCI tripping started to surface, ARRL purchased one each of every AFCI model it could find, and tested them at W1AW, finding only one model of one manufacturer, Eaton, to have the problem. A number of reports here said that other manufacturers also have this problem, but those reports didn't offer any specific information. If any hams do have reports of other manufacturer's problem, please send them to Mike Gruber at ARRL, rfi@arrl.org. I think that we have found all of the problems, but the reports here suggest otherwise, so specific additional information would be more useful than the unspecified general statements I saw here.
All of the other manufacturers seemed to have been okay, so I think that the speculation that it's not possible to design an AFCI that does not trip on RF signals may be wrong. These devices analyze noise on the line, to tell the difference between motors, switching supplies and arcs, so the redesign was probably more software than hardware.
Eaton has been replacing AFCIs, including electrician costs, with their newer model. As the problem was being resolved, they were replacing them with an older, compatible Eaton model, but that is a 2nd-best resolution. We have a few reports that replacements didn't work any different than the old ones, but it looks as if the replacements may have been mislabeled, or the original model was sent by mistake. If any ham has gotten replacements and they did not work as intended, please let Mike Gruber know.
All in all, although one could want to see things resolved a bit differently than they were, Eaton has been very responsive to this problem. If every manufacturer with an RFI problem redesigned its product to work better, we'd all be delighted, so let's look for the positive in this and address any loose ends with a responsible and cooperative manufacturer.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab Manager
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Eaton has been replacing AFCIs, including electrician costs, with their newer model. As the problem was being resolved, they were replacing them with an older, compatible Eaton model, but that is a 2nd-best resolution. We have a few reports that replacements didn't work any different than the old ones, but it looks as if the replacements may have been mislabeled, or the original model was sent by mistake. If any ham has gotten replacements and they did not work as intended, please let Mike Gruber know.
All in all, although one could want to see things resolved a bit differently than they were, Eaton has been very responsive to this problem. If every manufacturer with an RFI problem redesigned its product to work better, we'd all be delighted, so let's look for the positive in this and address any loose ends with a responsible and cooperative manufacturer.
Ed Hare, W1RFI
ARRL Lab Manager
Ed,
Thanks for your input. Eaton has been most helpful in attempting to resolve the problems here at my location but after 4 1/2 months nothing really positive has happened, which Eaton agrees is entirely too long. Bottom line their HAM breakers just do not totally work. This was affirmed last week when a newer production of their "HAM" breaker with a date code of 140605 (June 5, 2014) was tried in my panel and it immediately tripped twice during testing. This was explained in detail in an e-mail I sent to you and Mike Gruber this morning regarding the HAM breaker I sent you for evaluation. I would think that the date code 140605 was not one of the mislabeled units. If that is what happened, mislabeling another run of breakers then they have serious problems in their manufacturing process.
Eaton's electrical contractor was supposed to return to two of my neighbors homes today to replace their tripping AFCI's but they informed me last night that the contractor called and informed them that they had sent them the incorrect breakers and they would call later and reschedule when they had the correct breakers. Do they have a breaker that will really work? Who really knows they haven't sent one in my direction that works totally in my home or my neighbors homes.
Bottom line, to maintain good will in my neighborhood I am off the air until they get a breaker that really works.
Again, thanks for your comments they are most welcome.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Thank you ED for posting on this forum.
There are some items that need to be clarified:
1. Mike Gruber did not find any problems with the AFCIs that were purchased at Home Depot or Lowes.
2. When I contacted Mike and relayed the problems I was having on my block, Mike asked if I could get my hands on one of them.
3. The construction foreman who had witnessed the testing we did here offered me 3 of the breakers that had tripped. I sent two of them to Mike and his testing showed that there was indeed a problem, particularly on 17 and 20 meters.
The fact that the ARRL was surprised that this was happening is puzzling since hams in The Villages in Florida were experiencing this problem before I did. According to John Ellis, NP2B, Eaton sent some people to The Villages to check it out. I think they solved the problem by installing the old version (parallel only). You might check with John about this.
Most everyone on this forum thinks that the ARRL is not being forceful with Eaton. Joe Fello is one of the nicest people you would ever want to talk to but nice doesn't produce reliable CBs or Quality Control. BTW, when I first talked to Joe he said Eaton would supply the breakers but they would not pay for the installation costs. Good luck in convincing neighbors that they needed to pay so I could practice my hobby!
I don't think that anyone on this blog wants to undermine the ARRL. Many of us have supported the ARRL since we were teenagers (60 years for me). In my opinion, the ARRL needs to think more long term because there are millions of these things out there and there will eventually be many more cases. Has anyone contacted Brian, KA7KDX, to offer assistance in solving his problem? His apartment owner says he is not interested in replacing the AFCIs, free or not?
Finally, I was unable to attend the Rocky Mountain Division Convention due to an illness in my family. Was the subject of AFCIs brought up in any forum at the convention as was told to me by you? If so what was the context and how many people were affected by the problem? You might note that there have been over 80,000 views of this blog since it was started by Terry in June. I don't know who these people are but we haven't viewed this blog that many times.
73, George Key, W5YZ
ps, just in case you didn't see this on the blog, I'm also emailing this to you.
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I'm following the thread purely out of curiosity. I have seen AFCI's in the store, but was unaware that the NEC had expanded their use from bedrooms to almost every circuit in the house, and had added language to mandate their use in repair work.
I sent an email with my concerns to the ARRL, and have so far not received a response. I do believe this is a very serious problem, and for reasons that have been stated many times over already. Neighbors of affected hams are likely NOT interested in fixing this problem irregardless of who is paying for it. Neighbors are going to be pretty upset when they find out the "ham" next door is causing the food to spoil in their freezer, and the pitchforks will come out. The ham is always blamed when interference occurs. Most people simply don't understand how this stuff works, and they don't care. News stories on TV show how great these little widgets are because they'll prevent fires and save lives. Those same news stories don't talk about vacuum cleaners, power tools and TV sets that don't work because of them, or random tripping at all hours of the day because of thunder storms and ham operators. John Q public was left in the dark again, literally.
I'm really on the fence with these things. I do believe they will eventually save lives and be a very effective safety device. As they are now, these things are NOT ready for prime time. The NEC and NFPA has pushed this on us too quickly. What's going to happen now is people are going to become conditioned to "fixing" these things as soon as the inspectors tail lights are in the driveway.
Adam - KB9VLR
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Hi Adam, welcome to the forum. I have also read that Leviton is making AFCI outlets that can be installed in the wall so the CB panel does not have to be reworked. I also read of the same problems with these AFCIs. http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=154769
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I'm eager to get answers on these questions.
1) Has Eaton produced and shipped any real 'ham' breakers (i.e. not mislabeled 'ham' breakers)?
2) If 1 is true, do they work as well as the prototype ARRL tested?
3) If 2 is true, when will Eaton start distribute the 'ham' breakers in retail channels?
4) Will the new 'ham' breakers become the only breaker Eaton sells?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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maybe they will start producing fuse panels, and to hell with all these headaches... ;)
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Eaton's electrical contractor was supposed to return to two of my neighbors homes today to replace their tripping AFCI's but they informed me last night that the contractor called and informed them that they had sent them the incorrect breakers and they would call later and reschedule when they had the correct breakers. Do they have a breaker that will really work? Who really knows they haven't sent one in my direction that works totally in my home or my neighbors homes.
Bottom line, to maintain good will in my neighborhood I am off the air until they get a breaker that really works.
Terry, W4TL
I just spoke with Eaton's electrical contractor and they have received a supply of breakers to replace the AFCI's in the homes close to me. They will be scheduling the change out in the next few days. They are going to put a few in my home first before they change the others out. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope they work out.
I'll post back after we put a little RF to them.
Terry, W4TL
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GL Terry. I hope this batch will solve your problems for good. Take good notes and pictures.
Perhaps Eaton sent you some breakers made by another manufacturer ;D
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I'm eager to get answers on these questions.
1) Has Eaton produced and shipped any real 'ham' breakers (i.e. not mislabeled 'ham' breakers)?
2) If 1 is true, do they work as well as the prototype ARRL tested?
3) If 2 is true, when will Eaton start distribute the 'ham' breakers in retail channels?
4) Will the new 'ham' breakers become the only breaker Eaton sells?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Hello Jonathon -
Eaton sent me 11 of the HAM breakers a few weeks ago and they appear to be working properly. My original breakers would trip at only a few watts on 17m, and at 100w on 30-10m. With the new breakers, I can run 1500w on 80-10m (no 160 antenna yet) with no problems. Antenna is an open wire dipole at 50' about 35' from the house.
73,
Mike W0VTT
St Charles MN
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Hello Jonathon -
Eaton sent me 11 of the HAM breakers a few weeks ago and they appear to be working properly. My original breakers would trip at only a few watts on 17m, and at 100w on 30-10m. With the new breakers, I can run 1500w on 80-10m (no 160 antenna yet) with no problems. Antenna is an open wire dipole at 50' about 35' from the house.
73,
Mike W0VTT
St Charles MN
Thank you Mike for the reply. I assume your breakers have a sticker with the model number that ends with 'Ham', correct? I ask this because I also have AFCIs that work but mine is an older generation breaker that is immune to RF but is susceptible to false tripping on vacuums, etc. I want to make sure that what you have is the improved version that Eaton is preferring over the older 'ham friendly' version. Nice to hear a success story.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Brian, KA7KDX, I got an email from W1RFI suggesting you contact Mike Gruber. You might try to see what he can do for you. (mgruber at arrl dot org). If you do contact him, would you let us know what happened?
George, W5YZ
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In the 62 days this blog has been here we have averaged over 1400 views per day!
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I'm eager to get answers on these questions.
1) Has Eaton produced and shipped any real 'ham' breakers (i.e. not mislabeled 'ham' breakers)?
2) If 1 is true, do they work as well as the prototype ARRL tested?
3) If 2 is true, when will Eaton start distribute the 'ham' breakers in retail channels?
4) Will the new 'ham' breakers become the only breaker Eaton sells?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
1. The only real "HAM" breakers that have been shipped are the ones that are going to neighborhoods and amateurs that have identified problematic tripping by amateur operators.
2. Eaton has had trouble with their intermittent production of HAM breakers. It appears that they have had assembly production problems and that the breakers that are labeled "HAM" may not in fact be HAM breakers but are the problematic labeled as HAM breakers. The boards and IC's for the HAM breakers are made in Korea and the breakers themselves are assembled in the Dominican Republic. The "bad breakers" are still in full production and they only stop the line to run a group of "HAM BREAKERS." In my opinion this is part of the manufacturing problem with breakers being mislabeled.
3. Eaton is still manufacturing the "bad breakers" and will continue to do so until they run out of materials (boards, IC's, etc.) that are specific for the "bad breakers." According to Eaton this should occur sometime around November of this year. As far as distributing to retail outlets and contractors that will depend on how long it takes to deplete their inventory of "bad breakers" nationwide. Who knows how many of these bad boys will be out there and how long it will take this transition to take.
4. I don't have an answer for that, you might contact Eaton's Product Manager for Residential Breakers, Lanson Relyea. He is the guy with Eaton who is really calling the shots on the manufacturing of this product.
Just got word this morning that Eaton's electrical contractor will be here in my neighborhood tomorrow morning to start changing out the breakers. Eaton is sending a new group of HAM breakers that have been verified in their PA location to be as such and not being mislabeled.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This whole process is almost 5 months processing for me. Entirely too long.
Terry, W4TL
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Just got word this morning that Eaton's electrical contractor will be here in my neighborhood tomorrow morning to start changing out the breakers. Eaton is sending a new group of HAM breakers that have been verified in their PA location to be as such and not being mislabeled.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This whole process is almost 5 months processing for me. Entirely too long.
Terry, W4TL
Well, another delay. Just got a call from the electrical contractor and they are rescheduling the installation of the new breakers for Tuesday morning. Seems as though nothing is going right here. Bad breakers, rescheduling, what next?
Terry
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1. The only real "HAM" breakers that have been shipped are the ones that are going to neighborhoods and amateurs that have identified problematic tripping by amateur operators.
Hi Terry,
Thanks for the update on your situation. The reason why I asked the questions if any real 'ham breakers' were shipping is that how does one really know which type is which due to the mislabeling problem. A ham may have a breaker that says 'ham' but it may in fact be a regular breaker. So the mystery is still there. Once you have gotten the replacement breakers it will be interesting to see if they work, and whether they work as well as the prototype ARRL tested.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Just got word this morning that Eaton's electrical contractor will be here in my neighborhood tomorrow morning to start changing out the breakers. Eaton is sending a new group of HAM breakers that have been verified in their PA location to be as such and not being mislabeled.
I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This whole process is almost 5 months processing for me. Entirely too long.
Terry, W4TL
Well, the electrical contractor arrived here this morning at 10:00 and changed out 2 of my HAM breakers that had consistently tripped operating on 20 and 17 meters (details in a previous post of mine). These newly installed breakers were personally tested by Eaton personnel in PA and verified that they were in fact HAM breakers.
The bad news is that the new verified breakers tripped just the same as the older HAM breakers, while using the autotuner function on the Yaesu FT 3000dx into my OCF dipole. I tried installing a common mode choke made up of five, 2.4 inch torroids in series with the RG213U passing through it 5 or 6 times at the point just before the coax enters the house and the breakers still tripped.
The electrician installed the new HAM breakers in the 3 houses across the street from me and we tested again and NONE of the neighbors new breakers tripped. This is good news :) We installed the older generation CHCAFA breakers in my two problematic circuits and they do not trip at all. I will be ramping up my operation in the next few days (I haven't been able to operate at all because tripping my neighbors close by) and we will see how things go from here. I feel confident that they will be others here in the neighborhood that will be affected by my radio transmissions and I will learn of them as time goes along.
My conclusion is as I have said all along that these HAM breakers may work 75 to 100 feet away but will not work in a close field environment such as I have where the radiating antenna is no more that 8 to 10 feet away from the electrical wiring. I now feel that they just won't work when the antenna is as close as mine is even with low power 10 watts.
I have sent the tripping breakers back to Joe Fello for him to evaluate, he should have them on Thursday. I am anxious to hear what he has to say when he tests them.
Personally I think the jury is still out on their HAM breakers and they are not a guaranteed fix.
BTW The electrical contractor for Eaton that changed these breaker out, Electrical Pro's of Dacula, GA, did a very professional job in working this situation.
73
Terry, W4TL
Well, another delay. Just got a call from the electrical contractor and they are rescheduling the installation of the new breakers for Tuesday morning. Seems as though nothing is going right here. Bad breakers, rescheduling, what next?
Terry
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EGAD! I can't wait until we get all the CBs changed on my street. Hope it doesn't make the situation worse.
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Somehow my last post got mixed in to a previous post. Below is what happened today.
Well, the electrical contractor arrived here this morning at 10:00 and changed out 2 of my HAM breakers that had consistently tripped operating on 20 and 17 meters (details in a previous post of mine). These newly installed breakers were personally tested by Eaton personnel in PA and verified that they were in fact HAM breakers.
The bad news is that the new verified breakers tripped just the same as the older HAM breakers, while using the autotuner function on the Yaesu FT 3000dx into my OCF dipole. I tried installing a common mode choke made up of five, 2.4 inch torroids in series with the RG213U passing through it 5 or 6 times at the point just before the coax enters the house and the breakers still tripped.
The electrician installed the new HAM breakers in the 3 houses across the street from me and we tested again and NONE of the neighbors new breakers tripped. This is good news Smiley We installed the older generation CHCAFA breakers in my two problematic circuits and they do not trip at all. I will be ramping up my operation in the next few days (I haven't been able to operate at all because tripping my neighbors close by) and we will see how things go from here. I feel confident that they will be others here in the neighborhood that will be affected by my radio transmissions and I will learn of them as time goes along.
My conclusion is as I have said all along that these HAM breakers may work 75 to 100 feet away but will not work in a close field environment such as I have where the radiating antenna is no more that 8 to 10 feet away from the electrical wiring. I now feel that they just won't work when the antenna is as close as mine is even with low power 10 watts.
I have sent the tripping breakers back to Joe Fello for him to evaluate, he should have them on Thursday. I am anxious to hear what he has to say when he tests them.
Personally I think the jury is still out on their HAM breakers and they are not a guaranteed fix. As we all know every amateur station is different and sometimes things work and sometimes they don't. I am relieved to know that I can now operate without fear of tripping MOST of my neighbors AFCI's and am OK with using the Eaton CH115CAFA breaker in lieu of the Eaton HAM breaker in my house.
BTW The electrical contractor for Eaton that changed these breaker out, Electrical Pro's of Dacula, GA, did a very professional job in working this situation. They found a safety infraction at one of my neighbors in an external sub panel that had been installed by another contractor and they called it to the owners attention and repaired it for him for free.
73
Terry, W4TL :)
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Thanks for the update Terry. That's great news. I suspect we won't see you come here anymore since you'll be operating your radio. We'll miss you here :)
From your post we could make the following conclusion.
- The 'ham' breakers you received are indeed different since they are now working in your neighbor's homes. However they still aren't as good as the older CH115CAFA breakers which are immune to RF.
- I don't see the CH115CAFA solution as a permanent fix as Eaton has stopped manufacturing them for unknown reasons.
Now that we know Eaton has produced some 'ham' breakers (as opposed to mis-labeled 'ham' breakers) it would be helpful if Mike Gruber could get one for testing.
Lastly where did you get the CH115CAFA breakers? Why not just install those in your neighbor's homes?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Thanks for the update Terry. That's great news. I suspect we won't see you come here anymore since you'll be operating your radio. We'll miss you here :)
From your post we could make the following conclusion.
- The 'ham' breakers you received are indeed different since they are now working in your neighbor's homes. However they still aren't as good as the older CH115CAFA breakers which are immune to RF.
- I don't see the CH115CAFA solution as a permanent fix as Eaton has stopped manufacturing them for unknown reasons.
Now that we know Eaton has produced some 'ham' breakers (as opposed to mis-labeled 'ham' breakers) it would be helpful if Mike Gruber could get one for testing.
Lastly where did you get the CH115CAFA breakers? Why not just install those in your neighbor's homes?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
I will still be around as this continues to be a "Work In Progress" as the issue has not been totally resolved because Eaton has not made a "HAM" breaker that will work in every situation.
I have a total of 18 AFCI's in my panels. 12 regular "HAM" breakers and 6 of the CH115CAFA's. They first installed all 18 "HAM" breakers and 6 of them tripped right off under varying conditions. Joe Fello of Eaton sent me the CAFA's to replace the 6 that were tripping. Once I installed them my tripping stopped and I was able to operate without tripping. When I sent the 6 tripping "HAM" breakers back to Eaton they advised after checking them that they had been mislabeled in manufacturing. Then I began tripping the neighbors AFCI's and that is where the delay came in. I opted to not operate to keep peace and harmony with my neighbors. They have finally sent out some good "HAM" breakers and now they are not having tripping issues.
Mike Gruber has a "HAM" breaker that I sent him last week and he advised that they had tested it at the lab and W1AW and had no tripping with it (it did trip at my location continuously). Mike wanted me to try a common mode choke at the end of my feedline where it enters the house to capture any RF that may be traveling on the outside of the coax. I tried that and it had no effect at all. This leads me to believe that tripping is unique to each installation. I have no idea as to the length of wire in each circuit of mine that was causing the problems. Two things I know for sure and that is the feedpoint of my antenna system is about 8 to 10 feet from some of the electrical wiring in my house and that the tripping stopped completely with the installation of the CAFA's. The "HAM" breakers may work but the closer you get to the feedpoint of the antenna the more likely they "WILL NOT WORK," which I feel is what is happening in my case.
The CH115CAFA breaker as you say are not readily available and were phased out when they started making the "BAD" breakers. The CAFA's had problems with tread mills and older vacuum cleaners. This problem can be eliminated with the CAFA by placing a small 'surge protector" at the end of the appliance cord. If I have any problem with the CAFA's that is exactly what I will do. Lanson Relyea, Product Manager, Residential Breakers and Surge Protection for Eaton is the guy that "calls the shots" on the Eaton breakers and he does not want to use the CAFA's for replacements because of their tripping tread mills and vacuums. I'm willing to take my chances on that.
I think Eaton needs to tweak their "HAM" breaker a bit more to make it immune to RF just as the CAFA is. What's everyone else's thoughts on this??
Terry, W4TL
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Hi Terry,
Agreed on your post. Eaton still has work to do. Using an older breaker is only a workaround.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Hi Terry,
Agreed on your post. Eaton still has work to do. Using an older breaker is only a workaround.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
I am going to offer up my two circuits that trip consistently with the "GOOD HAM BREAKERS" to try any improvement Eaton makes to their AFCI. We know they can make one that works, such as the CH115CAFA. If they can make that model work here why can't they make a "HAM" breaker that works here on these two circuits.
Terry, W4TL
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Terry, your report also indicates to me that the ARRL has to come up with a more realistic test for the breakers. If they are testing with the W1AW antennas, I expect that those are much farther away from the breakers and wiring than the "typical" ham's installation. In addition, they may not have long runs of electric wire connected to the breakers as the typical home would have. They might also want to test with various lengths of wire attached to the breakers to see if near resonant lengths have any effect.
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Terry, W4TL et al,
Here is an update on my situation.
I have 7 of the Eaton BR units. I had received replacements from Joe Fello and paid a licensed electrician to install them. Joe was upset that I had not waited for Eaton to install them. I don't know if he was upset that I had not retrieved the trip codes -- this should still be possible -- or simply that I did not wait for Eaton's contractor to do it. I asked him how long I was supposed to wait for Eaton. (There was no answer to that.) Also, I had agreed to send the old units back for analysis and told Joe that I would still be happy to -- as soon as Eaton reimbursed me for the electrician. (That hasn't happened yet.)
Subsequent use of my station on 17 meters easily tripped one of the new units. I have temporarily replaced it with a standard (non-AFCI) breaker. So far the other 6 are holding up when transmitting 200W with SSB and 50W with PSK31 on both 17 meters and 20 meters.
My station is new and I just finished the grounding for the inside of the shack. I hope to have the exterior grounding completed in the next week. After that, I am planning to borrow a linear to "test" the breakers properly.
73 de AK2L
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Terry, your report also indicates to me that the ARRL has to come up with a more realistic test for the breakers. If they are testing with the W1AW antennas, I expect that those are much farther away from the breakers and wiring than the "typical" ham's installation. In addition, they may not have long runs of electric wire connected to the breakers as the typical home would have. They might also want to test with various lengths of wire attached to the breakers to see if near resonant lengths have any effect.
Mike Gruber and Ed Hare at the ARRL Lab are working on a different setup to emulate a typical setup. They tested the HAM breaker I sent them and it did not trip with their setup at W1AW. They wanted me to try the common mode choke, which I did with no improvement. I think they, the ARRL Lab folks, are working to help solve this mystery and I think Eaton want to solve it too and develop a breaker that will function under all circumstances. Copy of part of Mike Gruber's response back to me after he tested the breaker is below:
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Terry,
So far, we have used an antenna that is right over the roof with a load in the attic. The distance from the load to the antenna is about what you report, and we are running at or near full legal power. We’ve done this on all HF bands, and it does not trip. We’ve tried a variety of loads, and also used the normal W1AW antennas. We ran the breaker during the practice bulletins, which pretty much involves all bands – all at once - at maximum station power. We also ran the transmitters at max power for 20 seconds continuous key down with no issues.
At this point, we are going to be making some changes to our set-up, but it would be helpful to know what happens when you try the common mode choke(s).
73,
Mike Gruber, W1MG
ARRL EMC Engineer
*****************************************************************************
I agree with your comment about trying varying lengths of wire on the circuit to see if a resonant length makes any difference. I am now beginning to see very positive responses and interest from both Eaton and the ARRL Lab on solving this.
Terry, W4TL
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Perhaps the difference is the AC lines. In most residences it would be Romex or something similar that is not shielded. In a commercial building conduit or some other shielding would be used.
Is the ARRL lab testing with shielded or unshielded cable?
AK2L
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being as W1AW is a commercial building open to the public, building codes may prohibit the use of Romex for line wiring.
I suspect the League could get a testing waiver from local authorities if they needed to. might involve some nonsense and would be a limited time thing.
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I emailed Mike Gruber and Ed Hare at the ARRL Lab yesterday with the results of the installation(s) here on my street on Tuesday. They wanted to know how everything went especially with the common mode choke installed.
I also spoke with Joe Fello of Eaton yesterday and let him know how things went and offered to let them try any improvements they make to their HAM breakers on my circuit that consistently trips with the HAM breakers. I have got to interact with Joe quite a bit during that last 5 months and I feel we have a good relationship so I look forward to testing any improvements they make to their CHFCAF115 style breaker.
There may be "light at the end of the tunnel" for the AFCI issue even though we all realize it is a work in progress with more evaluation and work needs to be done on these PITA devices. We don't want them, really don't need them, but are stuck with them like it or not.
Terry, W4TL
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My house was built in September of 2013. It has 7 AFCIs for the bedrooms. Yesterday I had a chat with the house builder's project manager (about an unrelated issue) and learned that had my house been built after January 1, 2014, it would have AFCIs on almost every circuit.
I do not share your optimism about this being solved soon.
73 de AK2L
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Hope you let the ARRL know about your concerns. They say they have had only a few complaints, most of them solved.
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They haven't seen this thread then.
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Fairly good reason for low number of AFCI complaints. Two factors must exist for a complaint, there must me a susceptible AFCI breaker (mainly new construction), there must be a nearby Amateur that operates on the frequencies that cause problems.
Since much of the new construction has anti-Amateur (anti-antenna) restrictions, the confluence of Amateur and AFCI is low at this time. It will become worse as things progress.
KF7CG
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I am just wondering if others are experiencing problems with the new Eaton AFCI's? I recently moved into a new home in a 55 and older Del Webb Community (which incidentally restricts antennas) and began to assemble a modest station (100 watts with a small vertical antenna). Well I got everything in place and began to check out the antenna, etc. and my wife advised me that some of the electrical circuits in the house went off. Well i went to the breaker box to reset the breakers and try again with power reduced to about 20 watts. They still tripped. At this point I realized I had EATON AFCI's,
Since this blog was started over three months ago there has been a lot learned about the Eaton AFCI's and their problems. There have been several individuals comment about their problems with these devices and I think the comments made both positive and negative have helped all of us gain more knowledge on this subject.
Going back to the root of my original question, "I am just wondering if others are experiencing problems with the new Eaton AFCI's?" I honestly feel that there are others out there who are having the same problems and have not made comments here on the blog. We would like to hear from you too. Out of over 106K hits on tis blog there have to be others who have not spoken up and made any comments.
Most of the problems I had have been addressed and taken care of with the exception of one house. That house is immediately to my left and is not sold and is vacant. I have tried to get the builder (Pulte Homes) to let Eaton's electrical contractor come and change the AFCI's out and they have refused and offered up the excuse that they were not going to let a third party contractor come in and do work on an unsold house. Well, I guess that they can be that way if they want. After I get on the air the builder comes by in a day or so and resets the breakers. When I get on the air again the breakers trip and the cycle starts over. I'm sure if a prospective buyer is in the house when I get on the air and the breakers start tripping they may have second thoughts about buying that particular house. Not My Problem, I tried to point them in the right direction and they wanted no part of it.
Anyway, if there are others out there that are reading this blog that are having problems with AFCI's please let the blog hear from you.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Pulte doesn't want to even discuss AFCIs with me. I have had to handle the whole process myself.
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If you do a Google search on the terms 'arc fault circuit interrupter ham radio' this thread comes up as number three on the search results. The high hits on this thread could be the result of non-hams (i.e. homeowners, electricians, etc.) visiting this site. Non-hams won't bother to register in order to post. The traffic on this thread is quite astounding compared to the number of active users on this site.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I am not surprised about the homebuilder's attitude. "brand new, nothing wrong, best materials possible, master tradesmen, I took a shower this morning, everything is wonderful and you're the best!"
sell it and run. there is a reason all these developments have names. builder X did this one as "Gateway Mastersuites Management, LLC," which will cease to exist 6 months after the last lot is sold. after 6 units sold, they have the money to develop "Prarietails View Development Partners LTD." the reason is... sell it and run. if the management company has liquidated, you can't come tossing lawsuits at them.
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Pulte doesn't want to even discuss AFCIs with me. I have had to handle the whole process myself.
Pulte's Field Manager(s) here at The Village At Deaton Creek are really not interested in resolving any issues on anything with one exception. That exception is to get you to a closing on time and to get your check. When that is completed they will hardly speak to you.
I have basically handled all of the leg work on getting the AFCI issues handled here too.
We still would like to hear from others who are having or who have had with AFCI's tripping with HF transmissions.
Terry, W4TL
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To show you about some of our ARRL friends are thinking, my Division Director has decided my emails are spam. Pathetic!
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YZ, their mail handler may be rejecting emails based on the history of some email providers. use your ARRL mail to contact and ask that he whitelist your regular mail address.
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To show you about some of our ARRL friends are thinking, my Division Director has decided my emails are spam. Pathetic!
I think he's trying to say his plea for help is being ignored.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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My email to n5zgt (at)arrl (dot)org wasn't rejected before so I know he just doesn't want to hear about this problem. Still pathetic!
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To show you about some of our ARRL friends are thinking, my Division Director has decided my emails are spam. Pathetic!
Don't feel bad. Mine too. Makes you wonder why some hams have a bone to pick with their ARRL division leadership.... NOT!
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It's time to eat a little Crow. I just had a call from Brian, the Rocky Mountain Division Director. As someone on this thread posted, the problem of me being spam was with the ARRL server not with him. I apologized as I should have. We had a frank discussion and found areas of agreement and areas which we did not agree. One thing he agreed to do was to discuss the AFCI problem in his monthly newsletter for the next few months and to ask for feedback from members to both him and Mike Gruber. He also said he would try to get the other Division Directors to do the same.
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Here is a copy of an e-mail I got from another ham who is having the same problem I was having and that was with the "HAM" breakers not working. Bob, is not a member on E-Ham and is from Iowa.
"So I have to ask you Terry, is there a solution? I have had Eaton send me replacement breakers and I had them installed by the electrician. Made no difference. I still trip them even running 50 watts. I just spent close to $5,000 for a new tower and antenna for my new house that have the Arc Fault Breakers in. I am off the air because every time I key the microphone, I trip at least 5 or 6 of the replacement breakers. I have a complete Collins S line and cannot use it because it runs a minimum of 100 watts.
Got any suggestion's?
Bob
WA0VLC"
My point again is that there are others who are having these problems that have not come forth with their situations and that the Eaton "HAM" breakers will not work in every situation.
Terry, W4TL
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All,
Boy am I glad I found this thread. I moved into a new house outside San Diego a few years ago, and it took almost a year before I set up any HF gear. Ever since then I was having nuisance trips that I was convinced was due to bad grounding, common mode coming back in to the shack, etc. I never actually thought that the breakers were junk.
After 3 repeated trips last night that kept plunging my home office into the dark (including the computers, network stuff, etc) I decided enough was enough, and this morning I was going to go purchase non-AFCIs and just be done with it. Google brought me here, and after a nice long read I am going to go talk to my neighbors and see if they have been having issues. We all have the same kind of setup as the four homes were all build together by the same contractors. I would rather have the AFCIs than not, and I am glad to see Eaton is owning up to the problem and fixing it as best they can. The thought of me telling my neighbors that they would need to buy new breakers and pay someone to put them in would ruin the relationships in our otherwise great cul-de-sac.
I know I can attempt to use Winmor inside RMS Express at only 10 watts on 17 or 30 meters and get a trip 3 or 4 seconds after I hit "Start", so it won't be hard to replicate on demand. I am a little confused about the trip code people have mentioned, I don't appear to have an LED on my AFCIs, so even after I do the "hold down test while turning on" procedure nothing really happens.
It looks like Joe Fello is the right guy at Eaton, I will reach out to him and see what he has to say. I am also going to send a note to the ARRL Southwestern director and our San Diego section manager.
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Remember that replacing the AFCI breakers with regular breakers violates the NEC and probably also local code. I certainly would not be replacing any in a neighbor's house. Even in your own house if you were to have a fire related to electrical you might have a problem with insurance coverage if you have replaced the AFCI breakers with regular breakers.
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K6NRT, welcome to the AFCI blog. In addition to emailing your Division and SCM please email Mike Gruber (W1MB, mgruber (at) ARRL (dot) org). This will help the ARRL to know who's having the problem and how many of us are out there.
73, George, W5YZ
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Correction, Mike's call is W1MG, Fumblefingers here--hi.
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K6NRT,
Welcome to the forum. Could you provide some specifics of your problem? For example how many AFCIs do you have in total and how many give false trips? And any chance you could provide the model and date codes of the offending breakers? And exactly when was your house built? It would be really helpful if you could post a picture of your breaker on this forum.
My house was built in the winter of 2011. At that time there were still some of the 'good' AFCIs floating around. Eaton has since discontinued the 'good' AFCIs because they cause false tripping with some vacuums and treadmills. It would interesting to see exactly which kind of breakers you have.
Those breakers without LEDs still store the code. The factory has the ability to retrieve the code. At this point I don't think the code is that important. It seems you have the same problem as those participating in the discussions.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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George - The ARRL Division manager already forwarded my e-mail on to ARRL HQ... we will see what happens....
Jonathan - The house was built in the summer of 2012. I have 9 AFCI breakers and at least 3 have tripped. The office breaker (where the shack is) is guaranteed to trip first... but other than that the distance from the antenna to the circuit tripped seems to be random. The one that generally trips second is the dining room, which is the furthest branch from the antenna. As far as getting the models and date codes, unfortunately I have to disassemble the panel to get to those since the stickers are on the side of the breakers. That means turning the power off... as soon as it makes sense to be powerless for an hour or two I will try to make that happen.
Thanks guys... 73,
Neill
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Thank you Neill for the update. No worries on the model no. If it's not too inconvenient a picture of the breaker (showing the switch) is sufficient to identify which model of breaker you have.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Here are some shots of the breakers... I have a mix of 20 and 15 amp.
(http://i.imgur.com/yW4VhZ1l.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/2YwFPbLl.jpg)
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Yup. You have the newer and 'improved' breakers (immune to false trips from vacuums and treadmills but susceptible to RF). My suggestion is that you push Eaton to change out ALL of the AFCIs and not just those that trip. But you have a dilemma. Currently Eaton doesn't have a breaker that is immune to vacuums, treadmills, and RF. They do have an older AFCI that is immune to RF but it's susceptible to false trips from vacuums and treadmills. I have the 'older' style and it's running fine even at legal limit. My suggestion is that you wait a bit to see if Eaton could tweak their 'ham' version a bit. I wouldn't rely on the existing 'ham' versions as some people are still having problems with these.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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One thing I learned with dealing with these PITA devices is that they normally will not trip unless the circuit presents a load to the AFCI. There is a simple fix for the "older" type that trips with treadmills and vacuum cleaners but is virtually immune to RF. That fix is to purchase a simple receptacle surge protector and plug it into the receptacle and then plug the vacuum cleaner or treadmill into the surge protector.
As I have stated earlier Eaton's "HAM" breakers do not necessarily fix the problem and do not work in all situations. After the "HAM" breakers were installed at my QTH we had to replace 6 of them that still consistently tripped. They were replaced with the older ones that tripped with vacuum cleaners, etc. So far they have not tripped with RF nor the vacuum cleaner or treadmill.
I got another e-mail from Bob Seely, WA0VLC and he did tell me that he had talked to Mike Gruger at the ARRL Lab and that Stephen Byl from Eaton had called and advised that they were going to hire an electrician to resolve his situation. He also told me that he had signed up here on E-Ham and would be posting his results to the forum.
I still feel that there are many more amateurs out there that haven't realized what is causing their problem. We need to continue to let all of our ham friends know about the AFCI's before they give up the hobby and just vanish.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Our SCM just put out some info on the AFCI problem in his monthly newsletter. It's excerpts of Terry's and my comments here on the blog. Anything to get the word out. I got to thinking about what someone said about the response at the Rocky Mountain Division hamfest. Out of 70 people attending the ARRL forum, only one person said they had a problem. Sounds like a small number, BUT if they are like our club, less than 50% have ever been on HF. Of that number, how many live in a community of new houses? That makes 1 out of 70 seem like a pretty big number.
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I've been watching this thread with great interest, as my home (built in 2012) has 7 Eaton AFCI's that trip EVERY time I'm on 17 meters, and sometimes on 40, 80, and 15.... I sent an email to Eaton this morning, so we'll see how they respond.
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N8XEE, welcome to the AFCI blog. In addition to emailing your Division and SCM please email Mike Gruber (W1MB, mgruber (at) ARRL (dot) org). This will help the ARRL to know who's having the problem and how many of us are out there.
73, George, W5YZ
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Yes, I sent a copy of my email to Mike, and he replied right away. I also got Joe's out of office message, saying he was out until Friday.
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I've been watching this thread with great interest, as my home (built in 2012) has 7 Eaton AFCI's that trip EVERY time I'm on 17 meters, and sometimes on 40, 80, and 15.... I sent an email to Eaton this morning, so we'll see how they respond.
Kevin,
I notice form QRZ that you are located in Pittsburg, PA. Well, it so happens that Joe Fello from Eaton Corp. is located just outside of Pittsburg near the airport. Perhaps he will be willing to give you a little personalized attention since you are close by.
Thanks for checking in and please keep us updated on what happens with getting your situation resolved.
73, Terry, W4TL
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Thanks Terry. I knew Eaton had a pretty big facility here, as a friend of mine worked there for a number of years. But I didn't know that Joe was here also. Eaton's offices are only about 8 miles from me, so we'll see what happens. I'll keep everyone posted.
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Thanks Terry. I knew Eaton had a pretty big facility here, as a friend of mine worked there for a number of years. But I didn't know that Joe was here also. Eaton's offices are only about 8 miles from me, so we'll see what happens. I'll keep everyone posted.
If you guys are any closer you might accidentally trip their test breakers when you transmit ;D Sorry it's a bad joke but I just couldn't resist :)
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Yes, I sent a copy of my email to Mike, and he replied right away. I also got Joe's out of office message, saying he was out until Friday.
Is there anyone else or other ways to contact Eaton? Also, are the AFCIs really worth it? I recently had 4 installed, to "protect" the original, 80 year old wiring in my house.
Ken W3CAT
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Is there anyone else or other ways to contact Eaton? Also, are the AFCIs really worth it? I recently had 4 installed, to "protect" the original, 80 year old wiring in my house.
Welcome to the forum Ken. I believe Joe Fello is the only person handling the false tripping cases for Eaton. IMHO the AFCI breakers are worth it whether the wiring is one year old or 80 years old. You made the right decision.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Hi Ken, If you are having trouble with your new AFCIs, please email your SCM, Division Director and Mike Gruber at the ARRL. We are trying to point out to the ARRL the magnitude of this problem. 73, George, W5YZ
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Hi Ken, If you are having trouble with your new AFCIs, please email your SCM, Division Director and Mike Gruber at the ARRL. We are trying to point out to the ARRL the magnitude of this problem. 73, George, W5YZ
Done!
Ken W3CAT
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Is there anyone else or other ways to contact Eaton? Also, are the AFCIs really worth it? I recently had 4 installed, to "protect" the original, 80 year old wiring in my house.
Ken W3CAT
Joe Fello is definitely the guy with Eaton to contact. Just tell him Terry sent you, HI HI. He and I have got to know each other very well over the last 5 months and he will get things going for you if you are having problems.
As far as "are the AFCI's really worth it" that is certainly debatable. IMHO I think they are not worth the extra cost and trouble. When you have a device that is so sensitive that it trips from static that builds up on your body when walking across a carpeted floor in the winter time and reach for the light switch to turn the lights off something is wrong with that picture. I go back to living in houses that had the old screw in fuses and seeing them evolve to fuse-less type circuit breakers and now these PITA AFCI's. I have had 4 houses in my adult life, the first with screw in fuses, the second 2 with fuse-less breakers and now number 4 with AFCI's. If it were not for violating the local electrical code I would replace the AFCI's with conventional breakers in a heart beat.
On another note, Mike Gruber, W1MG at the ARRL Lab e-mailed me and said they were setting up to test the tripping "HAM" breakers I sent him. They are going to set up a 17 meter dipole in the same room as the breakers and see what happens. This to me affirms that this deal with AFCI's is still a "work in progress" and is not finished as some have said.
I still believe there are many more hams out there who are having problems with AFCI's and just haven't let their existence be known.
73, Terry, W4TL
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I have been working with the local Eaton representative here in Cedar Rapids, who called me today and told me that he should have replacement breakers in next Monday to be installed. I plan on having my amplifier ready to try at 500 watts to see what happens. I will give Eaton credit that they have been staying on top of the problem. I have my fingers crossed that the problem will be solved. If not, Square D wants to try their breaker's and see what happens.
Bob
WA0VLC
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Maybe you should try Square D first to see what happens :)
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Hey Bob,
I see you got the log in problem resolved and welcome to the forum. Let us know how things go with the new AFCI's. One question, how many neighbors do you have within a 300-400 foot radius and do they also have the Eaton AFCI's? If your neighbors have the Eaton brand and you haven't had a chance to meet them, rest assured that you will get that chance once you go on the air. HI HI
Good luck with the new AFCI's.
73
Terry, W4TL
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I just checked with the electrician across the street that is wiring up the new house. They installed square D breaker's. He was a fairly young electrician and was very interested in my research with the Eaton breaker's. The guy next to me, well should we say, I hope I trip him every time. He told me last night that I needed to get my butt kicked because I put up a 38 foot tower. We do not get along. I had to call the police because of his threat's. So I am only concerned with me and the guy across the street.
Bob
WA0VLC
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VLC, if the crank tries to shut you down, and calls the cops, hand them a copy of the QST article and say it's his problem. also have the interference handout in the pile.
you're licensed by the Feds to operate. he's not licensed by anybody to run his blender.
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Can you legally put SquareD AFCIs in a box designed for Eaton AFCIs?
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Can you legally put SquareD AFCIs in a box designed for Eaton AFCIs?
I think Eaton has a lock on that too. As I understand it the Eaton breakers are type accepted to work in SquareD panels but the SquareD breakers ARE NOT type accepted to work in Eaton panels even though they will fit. Kind of a strange phenomenon isn't it.
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Square D breaker's will not fit into the Eaton box. The only way to test them would be to have the electrician rig them some way. Otherwise change out the entire box and breaker's. The electrician across the street told me that it would run just over $1,000 to do that. It appears to me that the only reason anybody would install Eaton is because they might be cheaper. I don't know for sure. I assumed that because my contractor went as cheap as he could with everything else in my new house.
Bob
WA0VLC
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Hey guys
I have the same problem with the Eaton breakers with one additional problem - I am a renter in an apartment complex.
I have been in contact with Joe Fello, a true gentleman and professional, but my problem is going to be getting the landlord to okay the Eaton contractor to replace breakers, not only for me, but my 16 or so neighbors who live within a few hundred feet of my apartment. So far every attempt at contacting him has failed.
I trip the 2 AFCI's in my apartment as well as many of my neighbors. My problems concern 15m and 20m with as low as 20 watts. VHF/UHF doesn't seem to be a problem, at lease with an HT putting out 5 watts.
I may have to give up the hobby, at lease for the duration of my lease.
I can't complain to much because, in theory, the lease mentions "no radio wires in the apartment". I don't know exactly what that means but I have a dipole on my terrace held up with clamps and have not drilled any holes. The landlord can hold that against me.
I can't experiment because I will drive my neighbors nuts.
Marc WB2MSC
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After stumbling upon and reading through this entire topic, I'm wondering how many people are being affected by other sources of RF...like CB radios and the like.
I live right next to a major interstate freeway and it seems like once or twice a week I will be listening to 20 (I only have a dipole for that at the moment and no tuner) and suddenly I'll hear someone for about 10 seconds loud and clear, and its a trucker going by on the interstate talking on CB, with what I assume isn't a 5W am transmitter.
I could see new developments going in next to a major road or freeway and stuff like this happening fairly frequently, it sounds like. I tend to only be listening in the evening hours since I'm at work during the day, so its probably more frequent than I can hear it.
Its pretty bad that someone could call emergency services and when they pull up to a house on their block, their "on scene" transmission could do the same, or even just them tapping a button on their MDT and it sending the data out could do the same.
Hams are just a part of this iceberg that we know about. I'm sure its happening a lot more and there isn't a ham for miles. And with all the talk of self driving cars and them having the ability to "talk" to other cars via RF on the highways, I have a feeling these issues are going to start cropping up for people within a few hundred yards of a highway or interstate freeway as well.
I should note as well that there are sound walls next to the freeway I'm next to, and obviously they do zero to prevent me hearing the occasional CBer over my HF. I'm guessing they would be approaching the signal levels that would cause these breakers to trip, since I'm on the General 20M SSB allocation and they totally overload me when it happens, though only for a few seconds.
I wonder how many calls have been generated by this kind of issue as well.
I'm in an older neighborhood so thus far I haven't had any issues (and I've only been running 25W, once I get a tuner my max will be 100W) but I'm guessing if there were issues, I would be one of quite a few sources in the area due to the proximity of the freeway.
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well, one thing you COULD do is call the housing inspector... "Hey, all of these newfangled circuit breakers they tell me I gotta have are conking out all the time, and the electrician can't find anything wrong. landlord says there ain't no problems. he's not trying to run the heat or watch the TV. how bout you send somebody over and make him make the power work?"
start running the inspectors ragged, things will start to happen.
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It's an uphill battle when one lives in an apartment. To stay in the hobby one could run a HF setup on mobile or sign up for WebDX. I'm sorry to hear the problem. Even if you can't solve the problem please write to the ARRL. This will help other hams.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Thanks KD0REQ and Jonathan W6GX for great (and funny) ideas.
I have a mobile setup but all I can use is a QRP rig without running the battery down. While many hams love the QRP challenge, I like to fire up a 100w rig and try for new DXCC contacts. On a nice day (very rare here in NJ - it's either too hot or too cold) I go to the local park and just sit there for 3 hours with the QRP rig in the car and the key in my lap and enjoy the hobby for a few hours. I don't make too many contacts though.
The local constable always shows up wondering what I'm doing sitting in the park for so long. Maybe I should wear middle eastern cloths and talk funny. I understand that the food is pretty good at the county lockup. Who knows, maybe they'll let me set up a ham station. With my luck, my cell will have one, very large, AFCI sitting right in the middle of the room.
I will never operate while driving, especially with the assorted nuts on the roads around here. Imagine the newsreel on that evenings news; "NJ ham (no one will even know what that means) crashes into bridge embankment while driving and dot-dashing (instead of texting). As the fire department was trying to get into the car, all they could hear on the radio is WB2MSC DE VK5ABC (that is, if they could copy CW)."
I like the idea of having some fun with the building inspector. But, my neighbors will suffer. I live in a 55+ area and I don't know if anyone has any medical equipment that needs constant power. If it was only my 2 breakers, I would shut them down while operating. I would love to experiment but, for this reason, I can't. I wanted to see if the QRP rig in the car would trip the breakers or, perhaps, the VHF 50 watter would also trip the breakers.
Maybe I'll get into microwaves up in the 5 terahertz range. That shouldn't trip the breakers. Maybe it'll also cook my dinner.
This apartment is an Affordable Rent place with some kind of relationship to local government. I wonder if the town could do anything? I have already contacted ARRL but they don't seem to be as "in your face" as the NRA is with the the firearms issues.
Marc WB2MSC
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You could play hardball as the law says it's not your problem. But then you might get into trouble based on what you stated in your lease terms. Another less desirable option is for you to transmit from your mobile HF in your complex. Your act will be completely 'legal' and it may result in the building management doing 'something' about the AFCI's. You might just win in the end of the days but you may not have any friends too. GL.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Jonathan
That is a great idea. You're right about the friends, though.
Marc
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in the unlikely but hopeful event that HR 4969 passed, passed the Senate, and was signed into law, they couldn't kick you out for trying to get on the air.
however, it's a real gamble if you are in regulated housing. these days the waiting lists are long and the manglement is under six kinds of pressure, and the tendecy to get rid of anybody they keep hearing about is real.
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REQ
That's right. Well, I got a reply from the landlord and they said that they are referring the matter to the regional maintenance office (they own properties all over the place). Not that I am hopeful, but it is, at least, something.
Meanwhile, I just might try transmitting with the QRP mobile rig in the parking lot and see if that works. At 5W, even if it does trip breakers, maybe it won't be as bad as the 100w base and I can apologize to the few neighbors involved.
Marc WB2MSC
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There seems to be no end to the problems associated with the Eaton AFCI's. As I had mentioned earlier I have several of the CH115CAFA breakers installed in lieu of the "HAM" breakers because the "HAM" breakers continued to trip with RF. I understood that these devices had their problems too.
Another problem occurred this past weekend with the CH115CAFA breakers. What happened my wife was on the treadmill and I was in my work shop in the basement working on a project. Both circuits are separate from each other but both have individual CH115CAFA breakers. I had the lights on in the workshop and my wife started the "electric sidewalk" up in the adjoining room. As soon as she started the treadmill the lights went out in the workshop. I got her to shut the treadmill down and I reset the breaker to the workshop. She again started the treadmill up and the lights in workshop immediately went out again. My question is why did the workshop lights go out and the treadmill keep running? I though this was kind of strange since they are both on separate circuits. The treadmill had a mini surge protector plugged into the receptacle it was operating from. I spoke with Joe Fello at Eaton on Monday and he is sending me one of their surge protectors to try which is probably better quality than the one I am currently using. I'll post when I try Eaton's surge protector on the treadmill.
I am now convinced that the circuit boards in all of their AFCI's are a pretty good HF receiver and what a joy it would have been to have had one of these back in the early days of amateur radio when "Spark Gap" was king.
Terry, W4TL
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Terry,
I'm not an expert on treadmills but I might have a theory. I would imagine there would be static build up on the treadmill. Maybe the arcing from the static discharge is causing an emission of RF that is being picked up by the adjacent circuit. To test this theory you could use an extension cord to power the treadmill from a non-AFCI outlet and see if the tripping continues. Or you could use a RF sniffer to find presence of RF near the treadmill.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Q: Is it only Eaton AFCI's that are affected? Are there other brands that are better at handling RFI?
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Q: Is it only Eaton AFCI's that are affected? Are there other brands that are better at handling RFI?
It is my understanding that Eaton is the only one that is having problems with RF tripping. Others may have the same problem but have not been identified here on this thread. It is my understanding that the other manufacturers have their own individual false tripping problems. In my opinion they are all a PITA and have consumed quite a bit of my time in the last 5 1/2 months dealing with them.
Terry, W4TL
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Well, I had a great day of DXing in the mobile with the FT-817nd sitting in a park for 2 hours - 15 meters was hopping and my 5 watts paid off. Had a rare day of beautiful, crisp wx. Unfortunately, I like CW and it's not easy sitting in a car with a key on your lap. I must have sounded awful to the guys in UK, Germany, Ukraine and Russia.
If I could have operated from the home QTH with the FT-897D, I would have done much better but I dare not because of the Eaton AFCIs.
I did try keying the mobile rig from right outside my apartment and it did not trip the breakers (I don't know about the neighbors, though).
I wonder if the 5 watt FT-817nd will work in the apartment as a base without tripping the breakers? I'll need some courage to try that.
Marc WB2MSC
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Good news from WA0VLC. The electrician showed up today and installed a different set of Eaton Breaker's for me. I came in and have been talking on 20 meters all afternoon with no trouble. I have not tried 10 or 15 meters yet. I have my fingers crossed. I even keyed down for over a minute or two during some of the QSO's just to see if there was a problem. So far nothing has tripped. I hope that Eaton has a handle on this problem now. Also I was running around 100 watts of power into a 3 element Yagi.
Bob
WA0VLC
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Good news from WA0VLC. The electrician showed up today and installed a different set of Eaton Breaker's for me. I came in and have been talking on 20 meters all afternoon with no trouble. I have not tried 10 or 15 meters yet. I have my fingers crossed. I even keyed down for over a minute or two during some of the QSO's just to see if there was a problem. So far nothing has tripped. I hope that Eaton has a handle on this problem now. Also I was running around 100 watts of power into a 3 element Yagi.
Bob
WA0VLC
Great news Bob! A good stress test would be to use PSK or RTTY at 100w. Do you know what model of breakers he installed?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Great new!!
Do you have an extra bedroom? I can move in immediately. I don't eat too much (that's a lie).
Marc WB2MSC
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I think it is time we give Eaton a couple of "Atta Boys." No matter how troublesome these devices are to reckon with, Joe Fello and the staff at Eaton are coming through and dealing with the problem head on.
I still feel they need to "tweak" these devices a bit more to make them more palatable for use in an RF environment.
I'm still waiting to hear from Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab and see how there testing of the "HAM" breakers went when they test it with the 17 meter dipole in the same room as the breakers.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Well, I finally got the courage to dial down the RF power on the base FT-897d. With 5 watts I tripped one of my two breakers but I also effected the neighbor who's breakers are on the other side of the wall nearest to the transmitter. I did not effect the neighbor on the other side (that I know of). Being that I have a very small apartment moving the radio will do no good; all I will do is effect the other neighbor. But, if you have a larger dwelling, you can dial down your power (hopefully not too far) and solve the problem. As stated in a previous post, I keyed the FT-817nd from the mobile sitting about 25 feet from the apartment without any trips (that I know of).
So, basically, I'm counting on the landlord to allow Joe Fello's crew to replace the breakers in mine and my neighbor's apartments so I can get on with the hobby. If not, I will have to be satisfied with operating out of the mobile.
Marc WB2MSC
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Well, it's been about 10 days for me, and still no reply to my email to Joe..... I'll try him again on Monday.
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He might be on vacation. He always replied to me and was very helpful. I got on 15 meters last night and talked for over 45 minutes with no trouble. I don't think Eaton wants any bad press over this problem and my guess is that they will help you. Another guy at Eaton that I talked to was Bob Handick at 412 893-3746. If Joe is out of the office, I bet he will help you. If that does not work, call Mark Gruber at the ARRL. Just don't give up. I didn't and now I am back on the air.
Bob
WA0VLC
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I sent Joe a follow-up email today, and got his reply within an hour!!!!!! He's looking over the photo I sent him now.
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I have been operating all weekend long running 100 watts with no trouble. The numbers on the new AFCI's are CH120CAFA (111226-0131791). Not sure about the last numbers. I think the number's important are the CH120CAFA ones. The true test will be when I hook up my Collins Amplifier and run the full power. So far though everything is working.
Bob
WA0VLC
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I have been operating all weekend long running 100 watts with no trouble. The numbers on the new AFCI's are CH120CAFA (111226-0131791). Not sure about the last numbers. I think the number's important are the CH120CAFA ones. The true test will be when I hook up my Collins Amplifier and run the full power. So far though everything is working.
Bob
WA0VLC
Bob,
That's great news. The breakers Eaton sent you are the older 'ham friendly' version. They are no longer produced as these could be false-tripped by vacuum and treadmills. The six-digit number you provided (111226) is the date code. The were manufactured on Dec. 26th 2011. The good news is that you won't trip them even at legal limit. I have the same breakers and they are 100% ham compatible. I don't own a treadmill and my central vacuum is plugged into a non-AFCI outlet.
Based on Bob's experience I assume Eaton is aware that the newer 'ham' breakers are no good? Hence they sent him the older 'ham friendly' version.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Joe Fello at Eaton got in touch with me today. In fact, he not only emailed me, he emailed me twice, and then called me on the phone!! The bottom line is he's sending me 7 new breakers. He also told me to check and see if any of my neighbors had a problem. If they did, he would send new units for them as well.
Hats off to Joe and Eaton.
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That's great news. Please take a photo of the model number and date code. Do you have an electrician to put them in? Is Eaton still providing free labor?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Joe Fello at Eaton got in touch with me today. In fact, he not only emailed me, he emailed me twice, and then called me on the phone!! The bottom line is he's sending me 7 new breakers. He also told me to check and see if any of my neighbors had a problem. If they did, he would send new units for them as well.
Hats off to Joe and Eaton.
Eaton has been furnishing a licensed electrician to change out the breakers at no charge to the end user. I would press Eaton for them to furnish one for you too.
73
Terry, W4TL
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My radio is still working without tripping any breaker's but when I went to use my miter saw today, one tripped. So it appears that when I have to use something like my saw, I will have to use a circuit that is not protected by one of the AFCI breakers.
Bob
WA0VLC
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brush motor, which is why Eaton changed the innards to something that hates hams. run that miter saw through a surge strip and see what happens. otherwise, gin up a Corcom 15 amp line filter in a box, and try running the brush motor stuff through that.
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Thanks, I will try that and see what happens. I am just happy to get back on the air.
Bob
WA0VLC
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Well... I thought I'd give an update. It looks like some folks have had success with Joe Fello and Eaton. And while I think Joe is an extraordinarily nice guy... I've seen NOTHING in the way of progress since I reported this almost SIX months ago.
I send an email and I get their out-of-office message. Gosh - these guys must get 26 weeks of vacation... they're gone half the time.
Finally I sent an email last week... actually, two emails... back-to-back days. Joe shuffles it off to someone else and ask them to continue.
Meanwhile, I've got an FTdx5000 on my desk collecting DUST. I've made exactly TEN QSOs since the end of April when I figured out that it was these AFCI breakers at fault. I'm staying off-the-air so I don't offend the neighbors... which causes Eaton to think that the problem has cleared.
NOT happy.
Mike, WA9PIE
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Hi Mike WA9PIE,
Sorry to hear about your situation. I suggest that you call Joe everyday until he responds. The squeaky wheel gets the grease :)
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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My radio is still working without tripping any breaker's but when I went to use my miter saw today, one tripped. So it appears that when I have to use something like my saw, I will have to use a circuit that is not protected by one of the AFCI breakers.
Bob
WA0VLC
Bob,
You must have the CH115CAFA type breaker that is susceptible to vacuums, saws, tread mills, etc. I had replaced some of my "HAM" breakers that were tripping with the CAFA's. One day I realized the tread mill was tripping a circuit. I called Joe and he sent me a 15 amp line filter/ surge protector in a completely sealed case and no more problems with the tread mill tripping a breaker and no more RF tripping any of the breakers anymore.
************************************************************************
To Mike, WA9PIE,
Keep calling Joe, he will eventually answer. Another thing I was told by both Ed Hare and Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab that they would intervene with Eaton on situations that are lingering or are not getting any results. Five months of not getting any help should definitely qualify as lingering. E-mail and call them both and let them know of your dilemma.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Hey guys
I'm sorry that Joe hasn't contacted Mike. I also get that "out of office" response but Joe has been good at getting back. Sometimes, I have to send another email but he always gets back. One suggestion, though; we are all frustrated with this thing but let's not take it out on Joe. He's been very helpful and it's going to take time. This problem will escalate as more hams move to newer digs.
My problem isn't Joe, it's my landlord. After repeated attempts to speak with him via phone, email and personal visits, I have had no luck. As I live in an apartment building, I also effect my neighbors, even with as low as 5 watts on 15m. I've finally took the next step and send in a complaint to the FCC explaining that it is my landlord and not Eaton that is the holdup. We'll see what happens. Basically, I want to know what my rights are. I suppose when you rent, you'll never win. They probably can't evict me since they would have to take me to court and I'm a licensed operator obeying the law. I think only the feds have jurisdiction here, anyway. The problem is when my renewal comes up. I don't know what the law is about refusing someone a renewal in the DPRNJ. This is an "affordable rent" apartment and I don't want to lose it as the regular rents here are obscene.
I must admit that I have the fantasy of borrowing a linear and blowing every AFCI in town. But, then, I have a warped sense of humor.
Good fortune to all, Marc WB2MSC
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Some good news
My landlord has contacted Joe at Eaton. If the township approves, my and my neighbors breakers will be replaced.
Stay tuned
Marc Katz WB2MSC
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Some good news
My landlord has contacted Joe at Eaton. If the township approves, my and my neighbors breakers will be replaced.
Stay tuned
Marc Katz WB2MSC
That's great news. Please write down the model number and/or take photos of the replacement breakers.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I've been gone for two weeks and it looks like we are making progress. Coincidence?? ???
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I have a combination of both the CHFCAF115 HAM breakers and the CH115CAFA (the ones that trip with tread mills, vacuum cleaners, saws, drills, etc.). I have a total number of 18 Eaton AFCI's in my 2 electrical panels. I have 10 of the CHFCAF115 AFCI's and 8 of the CH115CAFA AFCI's. The 8 CAFA's replaced 8 CHFCAF breakers that were intolerant to RF. After the breakers were replaced the tread mill began to trip another circuit (CAFA) that the tread mill was not on. I called Joe Fello at Eaton and he sent me a 15 amp line filter and I have not had any problem since. Why the tread mill tripped an unrelated AFCI (CAFA) circuit is unknown to me.
Below is a picture of the 15 amp line filter that Eaton sent me. It is approximately 4 1/2" by 6" by 2 1/2". It is doing the job and no more false tripping with the tread mill.
73 Terry, W4TL
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/linefilter_zpsb4c7105e.jpg)
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Just curious. Has anyone tried using a line filter on a radio and see if it reduces or eliminates false tripping? It wouldn't hurt to try it.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Jonathan
That probably won't work. I tried my FT-897D on batteries and it still tripped the breakers. It's the RF that's doing it. Why this is happening is beyond my technical competencies, but when a battery operated radio causes the problem, you can eliminate many things.
Marc WB2MSC
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Jonathan
That probably won't work. I tried my FT-897D on batteries and it still tripped the breakers. It's the RF that's doing it. Why this is happening is beyond my technical competencies, but when a battery operated radio causes the problem, you can eliminate many things.
Marc WB2MSC
I agree it is the RF that is causing the tripping. I moved my station to the out of doors to the patio, coax feedline and all powered the station with a generator and they still tripped. I wish that my HF receiver from 50 years ago had the same sensitivity as the "receiver boards" in the AFCI's have. HI HI.
Terry, W4TL
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only problem is connecting the headphones to the "output terminals" of the AFCI, it's likely the burns will never heal.
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Don't use headphones, use a lamp and a high-speed auto-reset for the breaker any you have a modern equivalent of the "Branley Coherer" type CW receiver. Other tan high-speed auto-reset the neighboring houses will provide the receiver.
KF7CG
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Our division director posted the following in his monthly newsletter
: "===== Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) tripping due to RF
transmissions =====
ARRL's Lab staff has been engaged in a working relationship with Eaton
Corporation, a manufacturer of arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI)
breakers, to resolve problems reported by amateur radio operators that
caused certain breaker models to trip unnecessarily due to RF
transmissions, even if the RF source is stood off by a significant
distance. Like the more common ground fault circuit interrupter
(GFCI), an AFCI is a safety device that is mandated by code in some
household circuits that detects potentially hazardous arc faults due to
poor connections in wiring and other factors.
Details about ARRL's industry partnership with Eaton can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
To understand and track the extent of (known) AFCIs that are tripping
due to RF transmissions within the Rocky Mountain Division, all hams
within Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming who are currently
experiencing RFI problems with AFCIs are asked to email **both** Rocky
Mountain Divison Director Brian Mileshosky N5ZGT (n5zgt(AT)arrl.org) and
ARRL Lab staff member Mike Gruber W1MG (w1mg(AT)arrl.org) with details
about your situation (AFCI make/model, bands and power levels causing
trips, etc.). Mr. Gruber can provide information on Eaton's process to
replace faulty AFCIs."
He told me last month that he would urge the other division directors to include similar statements in their monthly newsletters. The question is "have any of you seen the same thing in your division newsletters?". If you have, please post them in this blog.
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Please forgive me but I never read or know about these newsletters. I'm a member of the ARRL. I read the QST from cover to cover. Is there a chance that the same content could be incorporated in QST?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Our division director posted the following in his monthly newsletter
: "===== Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) tripping due to RF
transmissions =====
ARRL's Lab staff has been engaged in a working relationship with Eaton
Corporation, a manufacturer of arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI)
breakers, to resolve problems reported by amateur radio operators that
caused certain breaker models to trip unnecessarily due to RF
transmissions, even if the RF source is stood off by a significant
distance. Like the more common ground fault circuit interrupter
(GFCI), an AFCI is a safety device that is mandated by code in some
household circuits that detects potentially hazardous arc faults due to
poor connections in wiring and other factors.
Details about ARRL's industry partnership with Eaton can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
To understand and track the extent of (known) AFCIs that are tripping
due to RF transmissions within the Rocky Mountain Division, all hams
within Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming who are currently
experiencing RFI problems with AFCIs are asked to email **both** Rocky
Mountain Divison Director Brian Mileshosky N5ZGT (n5zgt(AT)arrl.org) and
ARRL Lab staff member Mike Gruber W1MG (w1mg(AT)arrl.org) with details
about your situation (AFCI make/model, bands and power levels causing
trips, etc.). Mr. Gruber can provide information on Eaton's process to
replace faulty AFCIs."
He told me last month that he would urge the other division directors to include similar statements in their monthly newsletters. The question is "have any of you seen the same thing in your division newsletters?". If you have, please post them in this blog.
Please forgive me but I never read or know about these newsletters. I'm a member of the ARRL. I read the QST from cover to cover. Is there a chance that the same content could be incorporated in QST?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
George,
I forwarded your previous note saying that your Director was going to put it in his newsletter (which he has done) to my ARRL Director Doug Rehman, K4AC. He advised me that me that he would follow suit with whatever Brian did. I forwarded you post on the blog to Doug yesterday, let's see if he follows suit. If he does I will post it here.
Jonathan,
It would be great if they could put something in QST about it. They (ARRL) have basically slammed the door in George and my face as to putting out any more information in QST about the AFCI's. Why don't you try maybe they will listen to you.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Hi Jonathan, What you said is precisely what I pointed out to our Division Director. Some (most?) ARRL members don't even know this newsletter exists. I think I will try to see if Brian has contacted the other directors to at least put the word out to those who GET the newsletter. A list of directors can be found at http://www.arrl.org/divisions . I think you have to sign up to get the newsletter.
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question is, how rapidly can the neighbors shriek as the power comes off and on in code? I'm betting 2 WPM is about all you can get.
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Why don't you try maybe they will listen to you.
Done. Below is my letter sent to Brian Mileshosky, N5ZGT
Hi Brian,
I hope all is well with you. It was nice to work you on 80m.
I have been following the AFCI saga with great interest. I was personally affected by the problem back in Jan. 2012. At that time there was little information available on the internet. After some trial and error I found one type of AFCI that worked for me. I replaced all of my AFCIs with the model that worked. I later learned that this model has been phased out by Eaton because it is susceptible to false-tripping when used with a vacuum or treadmill.
Lately I have been sharing my AFCI experience with others. Recently at the Mile High DX Club annual picnic I met a fellow ham who is downsizing to a newly constructed home in a high density housing development. Immediately a light bulb went off....I bet every house in the development has AFCIs. I explained my problem to him. It turned out his home was almost built and the electrician was just about to put in the electrical breaker panel. Talk about great timing! He said he will contact his electrician right away. I never heard from him again. I forgot his callsign and hence I'm not able to follow up with him.
This brings me to the issue of AFCI awareness. I believe that most hams are not aware of this issue. Although they may not currently have a problem, they are very likely to encounter the problem should they move into a newer home. ARRL members should be informed that some AFCIs are prone to RFI-related false-tripping. I believe the best way to communicate this is via QST. I'm wondering if you could help explore the possibility of incorporating an update and/or educational material on the AFCI issue in QST. The AFCI issue was brought up briefly in a past issue. I think an update on the issue is warranted. This will greatly benefit the ham community.
Thank you for your time reading this. I hope you will consider my proposal. Take care and best 73.
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I don't think Brian N5ZGT got my email. I have not received a reply. It must be the SPAM filter. Does anyone know how to contact Brian successfully?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I'll notify Brian you are trying to email him. I had this same problem before. Their mail handler may be rejecting emails based on the history of some email providers. Use your ARRL mail to contact and ask that he whitelist your regular mail address.
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Just got an email from Brian, he said he had already responded to you. What'd he say??
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Yes I did receive a reply from Brian yesterday. In a nutshell he said he sent an email to 5,000 hams in his division asking if anyone is experiencing problems. And only one ham responded. The problem with AFCIs is that although many are not having a problem, they might encounter a problem should they move to a newer dwelling. Hence the ARRL needs to be proactive and raise awareness that a potential problem might exists in a newer dwelling. Having this knowledge will save a lot of grief later on. Below is my reply to Brian.
"Hi Brian,
Thank you for the reply. And thank you for getting the word out to your division members. I know that some of the revised 'ham friendly' breakers are still giving people problems. I believe Mike W1MG has one of those breakers but last I heard he wasn't able to duplicate the problem. And that he's going to setup a 17m dipole right inside the lab next to the suspect breaker. I have a feeling that the house wiring in a typical installation acts like an antenna, hence the problem isn't easily duplicated in a lab. Hopefully Mike will get to the bottom of this. What I like to see is an update on Mike's evaluation published in QST. The last update gave the impression that Eaton has solve the problem and I know in fact that's not the case. The eham.net forum documents cases where people are still having issues with the supposedly revised 'ham friendly' breakers. By the way Mike W1MG has one of my RF-immune AFCI breaker. I believe Mike is in a good position to report on the part/model of good vs. bad AFCI. Since by now I'm sure he has a large collection of AFCI, hi. Thanks again and 73."
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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What I like to see is an update on Mike's evaluation published in QST. The last update gave the impression that Eaton has solve the problem and I know in fact that's not the case. The eham.net forum documents cases where people are still having issues with the supposedly revised 'ham friendly' breakers. By the way Mike W1MG has one of my RF-immune AFCI breaker. I believe Mike is in a good position to report on the part/model of good vs. bad AFCI. Since by now I'm sure he has a large collection of AFCI, hi. Thanks again and 73."
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Eaton is having the builders electrical contractor install different AFCI's in all homes that are under construction or will be under construction within a 500' radius of my house. They just finished the electrical work on 2 of these houses this week. Well guess what. They did not use the so called "HAM Breaker" that was supposed to work but installed instead the older type CAFA breakers (the generation before the troublesome breakers). This tells me that they realize they have trouble with the "HAM Breakers" and are possibly reverting back to the CAFA type. The CAFA's are impervious to RF tripping here in my QTH. I have attached a photo of the finished panel in one of the new homes which is two houses up the street from me.
Any comments on this change?
73
Terry, W4TL
(http://i1242.photobucket.com/albums/gg533/w4tlw4tl/afchaf1_zps2b4c58c2.jpg)
CAFA
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You are getting to be the expert!
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Hi Terry,
The breakers shown in the picture say CHAF not CAFA. Are you sure they put in CAFA?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Hi Terry,
The breakers shown in the picture say CHAF not CAFA. Are you sure they put in CAFA?
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Jonathan,
You are absolutely correct. They installed CHAF and not the CAFA breakers. Anyway these are good ones and don't trip with RF.
Thanks for pointing this out.
73
Terry W4TL
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You are absolutely correct. They installed CHAF and not the CAFA breakers. Anyway these are good ones and don't trip with RF.
Hmmm...I'm confused. I had thought the CAFAs are the ones immune to RF. I have the CAFAs. I know you have a mixture of CHAFs and CAFAs. And you had replaced some of the 'ham' CHAFs with CAFAs.
Your post says they installed CAFAs but the picture shows CHAFs.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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You are absolutely correct. They installed CHAF and not the CAFA breakers. Anyway these are good ones and don't trip with RF.
Hmmm...I'm confused. I had thought the CAFAs are the ones immune to RF. I have the CAFAs. I know you have a mixture of CHAFs and CAFAs. And you had replaced some of the 'ham' CHAFs with CAFAs.
Your post says they installed CAFAs but the picture shows CHAFs.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Jonathan,
My mistake all along. I had inadvertently said I had replaced some of my breakers with CAFA's which was not the case I have the CHAF's identical to the those in the previous photograph. I have never had any CAFA's. Sorry for the confusion.
Terry, W4TL
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My mistake all along. I had inadvertently said I had replaced some of my breakers with CAFA's which was not the case I have the CHAF's identical to the those in the previous photograph. I have never had any CAFA's. Sorry for the confusion.
Ok. Thanks. That makes more sense. Just for clarification, I assume you have no further issues with the 'ham' CHAF's, correct? Do you have one type of CHAF or two different types, ones that are 'regular' version and ones that are 'ham' version? Lastly, you had sent a 'ham' version to Mike W1MG for testing. Was that one a good AFCI or a bad AFCI that was giving you trouble?
Do you have any knowledge whether Eaton is installing the 'regular' version of CHAF or the 'ham' version of CHAF? Obviously from the picture one cannot tell unless one looks at the label which is affixed on the side of the breaker.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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My mistake all along. I had inadvertently said I had replaced some of my breakers with CAFA's which was not the case I have the CHAF's identical to the those in the previous photograph. I have never had any CAFA's. Sorry for the confusion.
Ok. Thanks. That makes more sense. Just for clarification, I assume you have no further issues with the 'ham' CHAF's, correct? Do you have one type of CHAF or two different types, ones that are 'regular' version and ones that are 'ham' version? Lastly, you had sent a 'ham' version to Mike W1MG for testing. Was that one a good AFCI or a bad AFCI that was giving you trouble?
Do you have any knowledge whether Eaton is installing the 'regular' version of CHAF or the 'ham' version of CHAF? Obviously from the picture one cannot tell unless one looks at the label which is affixed on the side of the breaker.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
Jonathan,
I have a combination of the CHFCAF "HAM Breakers" and the CHAF. I do not know if the CHAF's are the "HAM" version or not. There was no "HAM" designation on the labeling of the CHAF's. Bottom line they are working and I have not had any more tripping in several months here.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Got it Terry. So it appears there several versions.
CAFA (produced prior to 2012; this is what I have; completely immune to RF; phased out by Eaton)
CHAF (I don't know too much about these but Terry W4TL says they are immune to RF; was phased out by Eaton but it seems now they are back)
CHFCAF 'regular' version (trips from RF)
CHFCAF 'ham' version (still trips by RF according to Terry W4TL but it's better than the 'regular' version; not as good as the CAFA or CHAF).
I hope I got it right this time.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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All the houses across the street from me have CAF's. All 14 of them and they are all affected. I'm going to run a test next weekend to see who hasn't had theirs replaced. Should be easy to find out.
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Hi All,
I just received an update from Mike W1MG at the ARRL lab. He's still in the process of setting up a test arrangement. It's not yet done but he hopes to have it done soon. He didn't elaborate on the test arrangement however I presume it mimics an electrical service found in a typical home with an input (utility) and output (load), with appropriately sized ROMEX wiring acting as an antenna for the breakers. I sent a request to Mike to ask him to summarize his findings by model number since there seems to be major differences between models on their ability to reject RFI.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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On June 9th, I first contacted the folks at Eaton to report the problem with the AFCI breakers in my house (and those of 3 adjacent neighbors). One contact at Eaton responded that day. I heard from Joe Fello on June 27th and that started the ball SLOWLY rolling.
The entire process has been a pain. Every single time you send an email to three people at Eaton, you will absolutely get at least 1... and sometimes 3 out-of-office responses.
They asked for answers to certain questions... and I provided it.
They waited several weeks and (after bugging them again) then sent a "Ham Radio Interference Questionnaire" where they were asking again for the information... from all parties who have already responded.
Anyway...
The whole process was a complete pain and took forever.
I'm posting here to report that this past Friday (almost FIVE MONTHS later), they finally replaced the AFCI breakers.
I'm pleased to report that this resolved the problem for me and my neighbors.
Mike, WA9PIE
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I'm posting here to report that this past Friday (almost FIVE MONTHS later), they finally replaced the AFCI breakers.
I'm pleased to report that this resolved the problem for me and my neighbors.
Mike, WA9PIE
Mike,
I am glad you have resolution to your situation. It seemed as though mine would never get resolved too, but it finally did. Just curious as to what model of the Eaton breakers you have? A picture would be good too.
Hope to catch you on the air soon.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Our division director posted the following in his monthly newsletter
: "===== Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) tripping due to RF
transmissions =====
ARRL's Lab staff has been engaged in a working relationship with Eaton
Corporation, a manufacturer of arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI)
breakers, to resolve problems reported by amateur radio operators that
caused certain breaker models to trip unnecessarily due to RF
transmissions, even if the RF source is stood off by a significant
distance. Like the more common ground fault circuit interrupter
(GFCI), an AFCI is a safety device that is mandated by code in some
household circuits that detects potentially hazardous arc faults due to
poor connections in wiring and other factors.
Details about ARRL's industry partnership with Eaton can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
To understand and track the extent of (known) AFCIs that are tripping
due to RF transmissions within the Rocky Mountain Division, all hams
within Colorado, New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming who are currently
experiencing RFI problems with AFCIs are asked to email **both** Rocky
Mountain Divison Director Brian Mileshosky N5ZGT (n5zgt(AT)arrl.org) and
ARRL Lab staff member Mike Gruber W1MG (w1mg(AT)arrl.org) with details
about your situation (AFCI make/model, bands and power levels causing
trips, etc.). Mr. Gruber can provide information on Eaton's process to
replace faulty AFCIs."
He told me last month that he would urge the other division directors to include similar statements in their monthly newsletters. The question is "have any of you seen the same thing in your division newsletters?". If you have, please post them in this blog.
My ARRL Division Director (Southeastern Division) just posted this on his Fall Newsletter regarding AFCI's. Hopefully this will help get the word out to more hams. He had promised me that he would follow suit with George's Director and he did.
73
Terry, W4TL
*****************************************
"Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) tripping due to RF transmissions
ARRL's Lab staff has been engaged in a working relationship with Eaton
Corporation, a manufacturer of arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI)
breakers, to resolve problems reported by amateur radio operators that
caused certain breaker models to trip unnecessarily due to RF
transmissions, even if the RF source is stood off by a significant
distance. Like the more common ground fault circuit interrupter
(GFCI), an AFCI is a safety device that is mandated by code in some
household circuits that detects potentially hazardous arc faults due to
poor connections in wiring and other factors.
Details about ARRL's industry partnership with Eaton can be found at
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
If you encounter such AFCI issues, please contact ARRL Lab staff
member Mike Gruber W1MG (w1mg@arrl.org) with details about your
situation (AFCI make/model, bands and power levels causing
trips, etc.). Mr. Gruber can provide information on Eaton's process to
replace faulty AFCIs. Please also copy me at k4ac@arrl.org."
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After six months of communicating and problem solving with Eaton and the ARRL, what model of AFCI is recommended for RF environments at this time? I have dual Square-D load centers. 200A main, 100A sub. The 2014 NEC now appears to require AFCI in nearly ALL areas of a dwelling unit. For my panel arrangement, that's probably close to $1.5K in AFCI devices. Not gonna' happen until I take another look at my homeowner's policy.
Anyone know if most policies require 100% code compatibility at the time of an incident in order to pay out on a claim? Typically, how are older homes (e.g., 2-prong receptacle types) covered today under most policies?
The 2014 NEC has gone too far in my opinion. Most code still allows arc-producing, back-stabbing receptacles. Seems it would be more productive to start there, but the industry makes more money every few years with required expensive upgrades. For example, five years ago, a 3/4" drain pan line was fine for our hot water heaters in this area. Two years ago, the change required a minimum size of 1". Next year, will it be 1.5"? How much brain power does it take to do an accurate computation one time?
Paul, W9AC
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until you make a change, code is generally grandfathered in, with certain exceptions like an old building with bare steel power wire running belt-high down the middle of a hallway is going to get red-tagged just for existing.
when you make a change, that section has to meet current code. that part just about everybody agrees on.
but if the feed to this area is not compliant, you can be required to bring that up to code. take for example old Granny Gertrude's 1910 house, full of knob and tube wire with a 60-amp service. Granny has an outlet in the bedroom that won't hold plugs. so to use her oxygen machine, the receptacle has to be replaced. it's on 18-gauge KnT Copperweld. it's a bedroom. so it needs an AFCI, and this city's inspector insists the KnT has to be replaced with a 20-amp Romex circuit. except the service is overwired and underpowered, so Granny has to replace the 60-amp entrance. but that means all the rest of the creepy old wire has to be replaced as well. and the power company won't thread a 200-amp drop through that old apple tree, so it's got to be heavily pruned or cut down.
one bad outlet is now thousands of dollars, no more apple pies, and hot sun in the bedroom window all day long.
so it's avoid deferred maintenance on one hand, or every codebook, have the electrician out.
you're OK until you need to replace something. oh, and all outlets now have to have shuttered prongs, which sorta precludes just adding an AFCI outlet where you need to replace one, and forget the panel, as I don't think there are shuttered AFCI outlets in all stores yet.
it's for your own good. they said so.
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I see mention of this problem in the December issue of QST. Maybe someone who is having the problem will find help. Has anyone seen any of the other Division Director's newsletters??
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Without going into a lot of "National Electrical Code" discussion, I did have a very interesting chat with a Cutler Hammer / Eaton rep the other night. My supply house had "contractor appreciation night", so I informed the rep about the issues that we hams have been having with their AFCI breakers. He told me that he had heard of the issues, and that that the following items can be a part of the "problem".
1) "ROMEX" style wiring which becomes an unshielded receiving antenna
2) BROADCAST TRANSMITTERS.... Yes I did say BROADCAST as in radio and TV..... He told me that in Minnesota they had an AFCI issues in some homes that were near the transmitting towers for a radio station! We didnt get a chance to discuss a more in depth solution, but it was the fact that other radio services can affect AFCI's that made me interested, and wanted to share that with my fellow hams.
I am in the Chicago are, and the wiring here is conduit and wire. When I added a circuit to the ham shack, I put it on an AFCI (Cutler Hammer "CH" series). The panel is on the other side of the wall from the shack, and I have had NO problems with nuisance tripping and tha incluses HF up to 600 Watt, VHF, UHf, + 900 MHZ. My guess is that the "shielding" afforded by the conduit is the answer.
Just my 2 cents worth , as both a ham, and a licensed master electrician.
de Howard, N9KTW, Owner G and H Electric
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I am sure that the grounded conduit makes a great difference. Unfortunately it isn't used in other parts of the country.
I have unprotected Romex in my house here in North Carolina. No real RF issues except for my new replacement Carbon Monoxide detector which goes ballistic when I use my half wave sloper which is near to the house. The old detector which was the same make and model didn't have this issue. Another example of cheapened and less protected modern electronics I think.
Mark N1UK
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Here in VA, conduit (EMT) or BX cable is only required for commercial construction. Virtually all of the single family residential homes are wired with Romex. Using conduit would greatly increase the cost of the wiring and installation labor.
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I thought I had it fixed but I ran a test on 17 meters and popped 6 AFCIs on my neighbor's house 200 feet away. They hadn't had theirs changed. The guy came out but didn't do anything--suspicions confirmed.
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Everybody must be happy ???. Guess all the problems are solved.
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Everybody must be happy ???. Guess all the problems are solved.
No, all the problems are not solved nor will they ever be. As hams move into these neighborhoods that are loaded with these ill designed AFCI's and attempt to operate on HF the problem will occur again and again.
I had another neighbor to inform me that his AFCI's were tripping when I was on the air. Eaton was contacted and they are scheduling replacement of his breakers with the older generation which is immune to HF RF. As I said the problem will continue to occur.
73, Terry, W4TL
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For just a little levity in an otherwise serious subject. Some time in the near future;
I just move into my new AFCI equipped neighborhood, fired up my rig; ALL THE NEIGHBORS WERE DE-LIGHTED ;D
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For just a little levity in an otherwise serious subject. Some time in the near future;
I just move into my new AFCI equipped neighborhood, fired up my rig; ALL THE NEIGHBORS WERE DE-LIGHTED ;D
Don't laugh. It may just happen to you down the road ;D
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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I just moved into a new neighborhood that is tightly controlled by an HOA. Sold all my base equipment but kept my mobile HF rig. After we moved in, one day every other circuit breaker was defaulted. Had the electrician out who the builder uses and he couldn't figure out what happened or why. It happened a couple of other times and one day when I was leaving the QTH, my wife called me and said the electricity went off in most of the house. I figured it out.......I had tuned my screwdriver antenna as I was leaving the house!!! Let's see, the Icom IC-7100 puts out less than 5 watts in the tune mode, so let' see, 5 watts into an (untuned) Scorpion screwdriver must be radiating in the mili-watts range! I thought I would come to the forum to see if anyone else is having this sort of issue. I suppose if I go up and down the block and put the SGC-500 in line, the lights will go out all over the neighborhood! I can't wait to get home to see if I have the Eaton AFCI's! Thanks for the topic!
73, Dennis W5UV
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Welcome Dennis!
Please send a copy of your problems to your Division Director, your SCM and Mike Gruber, W1MG, at ARRL headquarters. I think they would be interested. No doubt you are also killing your neighbor's AFCIs.
73, George W5YZ
ps Happy Thanksgiving
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Thanks George - I got home and sure enough, 100% Eaton (no HAM notation on the breakers). I will send a copy to all of them. Truly hard to believe this is so wide-spread. Happy Thanksgiving to you too! (and to all).
73, Dennis W5UV
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No, all the problems are not solved nor will they ever be. As hams move into these neighborhoods that are loaded with these ill designed AFCI's and attempt to operate on HF the problem will occur again and again.
I had another neighbor to inform me that his AFCI's were tripping when I was on the air. Eaton was contacted and they are scheduling replacement of his breakers with the older generation which is immune to HF RF. As I said the problem will continue to occur.
73, Terry, W4TL
It appears there is a lot of miss-communication between Eaton's office in Pennsylvania and their field representatives in the different states. The neighbor I mentioned above contacted Eaton on November 18, Joe Fello advised him on November 19th that the breakers were shipped to his local GA rep on the 18th. My neighbor contacted Joe Fello on December 8th advising that he had heard nothing in regard to having his breakers changed out. On December 9 Joe advised that he would check into this situation. That same day my neighbor received an email from Eaton's local sales engineer that he had received the breakers and had been in contact with their local electrical contractor and that they should be in contact with him within a week to schedule changing out his breakers.
From some of the posts by others who did not receive confirmation from Eaton's local reps until they were "prodded" by the home office it appears that Eaton's local reps are not receptive to accepting ownership of this situation as Joe Fello and his staff are in Pennsylvania. Just my opinion.
73 Terry, W4TL
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your suspicion = "aww, they sent us more chicken(stuff), but I get rated for promotion on whether I visit all my field contacts. round file."
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Could be ;D
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Sounds like what is happening with me.
Joe Fello is great and, much to my surprise, my landlord is aboard as well.
But the local guy is holding everything up.
It's been almost 7 months since first complaint..
Marc WB2MSC
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Interesting to hear the experience of many who have yet to have their AFCI's replaced. At the suggestion of Mike Gruber, W1MG at ARRL, I contacted Bob Handick at Eaton and received the replacements within a week. Although the local rep was copied, I never heard from him. Bob stayed in contact with me and even made contact with the builder of my home to coordinate the shipment. The electrician should be here tomorrow to install the new AFCI's.
73, Dennis W5UV
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Interesting to hear the experience of many who have yet to have their AFCI's replaced. At the suggestion of Mike Gruber, W1MG at ARRL, I contacted Bob Handick at Eaton and received the replacements within a week. Although the local rep was copied, I never heard from him. Bob stayed in contact with me and even made contact with the builder of my home to coordinate the shipment. The electrician should be here tomorrow to install the new AFCI's.
73, Dennis W5UV
Dennis,
Good hear about your positive experience. Do you mind sharing the model number of the replacement breakers? Thanks.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Best I can tell here are the model numbers:
15 AMP - CHFCAF115
20 AMP - CHFCAF120
On each box, there is a red icon that states "TYPE CH" and the description shows 'TYPE CH COMBINATION AFCI"
Hope this helps.
73, Dennis W5UV
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Best I can tell here are the model numbers:
15 AMP - CHFCAF115
20 AMP - CHFCAF120
On each box, there is a red icon that states "TYPE CH" and the description shows 'TYPE CH COMBINATION AFCI"
Hope this helps.
73, Dennis W5UV
Thanks Dennis. Could you find the word 'HAM' written anywhere on the breaker? Chances are you will find it somewhere.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Looked everywhere - on the box, the leaflet that came with the new AFCI's, and on the AFCI itself. Don't see the word HAM. Will check to see if there is any improvement this weekend. Frankly, looking at the old AFCI's, they look the same and have the same model number! We will see.
73, Dennis W5UV
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The model numbers should be the same however the 'ham' version should be marked as such. A while back the company actually mistakenly produced a batch of 'ham' AFCIs that were identical to the regular version. Please do report back on whether the new AFCIs do the trick.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Looked everywhere - on the box, the leaflet that came with the new AFCI's, and on the AFCI itself. Don't see the word HAM. Will check to see if there is any improvement this weekend. Frankly, looking at the old AFCI's, they look the same and have the same model number! We will see.
73, Dennis W5UV
If you will look on page 9 of this forum, post reply # 125 you will see a photo of a HAM breaker and the location of the ID sticker. They could have changed the location of the ID or may have converted over entirely to the new improved breaker and no longer using the HAM ID.
73
Terry
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Those pics show the "HAM" only on a sticker on the side of the AFCI. Unfortunately, I did not look at the whole breaker prior to the electrician installing them. Wish I had!
73
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For information to those who are following this forum I would like to share the following information.
I had volunteered to Joe F. at Eaton to test any new or modified AFCI's they had here at my QTH since I had a couple of circuits that nothing would work except the older type AFCI that was immune to RF. Joe sent me a couple of breakers a few weeks back and I finally got around to testing them yesterday. Here is the e-mail I sent Joe F. this morning.
"Joe,
I finally got around to testing the CHFCAF115 AFCI's you sent me a while back. We placed 2 of the breakers in 2 circuits that consistently tripped no matter what frequency I transmitted on with the older style "HAM" breakers. If you recall we put the CAFA type breaker in these circuits and there was no more problems. We installed the breakers and proceeded with the testing. We transmitted with 100 watts output continuous carrier for approximately 10 to 12 seconds on several frequencies into the Off Center Fed Dipole antenna which I described in previous e-mails. The transmit frequencies were at approximately the center of the bands used and were as follows:
80 Meters 3.750 Mhz
40 Meters 7.200 Mhz
20 Meters 14.200 Mhz
17 Meters 18.120 Mhz
15 Meters 21.200 Mhz
12 Meters 24.950 Mhz
10 Meters 28.450 Mhz
We transmitted on each of these frequencies twice. The first series of transmissions results were that one circuit did not trip at all. The other circuit failed on one frequency (20 Meters, 14.200 Mhz). We read the trip code on the breaker and it had a "5 Code, Ground Fault".
We reset the tripped AFCI and proceeded to retest transmitting on the same frequencies once again. This time neither of the breakers tripped on none of the frequencies. We transmitted several times on 14.200 Mhz trying to get the breaker that tripped to trip again and we could not make it happen. It only tripped with the first series of tests and only on 14.200 Mhz.
It appears to me that there have been some definite improvements to the design of the CH breakers based on this test."
It appears that Eaton has modified the software and or circuitry in their AFCI's and these later versions are and will be what they start producing as their standard breaker.
I just wanted to share this with those following this group and to affirm that Eaton is working hard to totally eliminate the nuisance tripping.
Best 73
Terry, W4TL
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Great job Terry. Thanks for sharing the info.
Although this may not apply to you but it would be beneficial to the ham community if you could stress test the same improved breakers at legal limit power. Also a mix of different modes (PSK31, RTTY, etc.) might be a good idea.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Dennis, did you attend the Rocky Mountain Division Convention in Albuquerque this year? I think Brian, our Division Director, asked if anyone at the ARRL forum had any problems with AFCIs. Seems to me he said that you stood up. After talking with Brian, he made the comment that only one ham in the 70 person meeting reported having a problem. Sounds like a small percentage. But if you think about it, probably half the people there have never been on HF and a smaller percentage of those live in houses that have the "non-ham" AFCIs. So I think there are a lot more out there who are just mystified about why their power goes off than Brian thinks. BTW, Happy Holidays to all.
73, George, W5YZ
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I am pleased to read that Eaton has been so helpful in solving the problems that have been brought to their attention.
Though I am no personally effect, I have followed this thread closes, since it is possible for a new home to be built within the range of influence of my station. That is where a silent problem may lay in wait: An older home that has new homes built nearby. The neighbors get all the unexplained power drops and not the Ham.
This may also contribute to the lack of numbers effected, there is a larger problem than known but the victims are suffering in ignorance and silence. Neighbors 400 feet from an unobtrusive antenna may not even know that there is a Ham near them.
KF7CG
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Well, I thought I held the record for the most houses affected, 14. But I just ran into my friend, Larry Scott NM5LS, and he said he is up to 18! Maybe he should submit that to the Guiness Book of World Records. Anybody out there top that?? ???
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Oh well, after 7 months they came to exchange my AFCIs. There's good news and bad news.
The replacements did NOT trip on transmit (15m / 100w / dipole). There were a few trips on one of the breakers (the one controlling the transmitter's circuit.) I passed those off as true overloads as they are 15 amp breakers and the FT-897D at 100 watts probably draws nearly that quantity.
The bad news - I live in an apartment and I told them that they will have to replace my neighbor's breakers as well. They only replaced one other apartment (and the lady had no problem) but not any of the other apartments. Supposedly I blew a breaker on the other end of the building meaning that they will have to replace breakers in 62 apartments. Fat chance!! I know of at least 1 other trip and, being that people are away for the holidays, will find out all the rest. I hope no one has a fish tank.
I guess I beat W5YZ's problem. How about 62. Well, so much for ham radio from the home QTH. Guess I'll have to move the rig to the car and let the engine run in the cold wx (even the warm wx if I run at 100w).
Just a note about Eaton and Joe Fello. They have been great. They are probably being bombarded by these AFCI problems. My maintenance department has been great as well. Too bad that they didn't understand anything about why the old breakers were failing.
Marc, WB2MSC
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The FT-897D at 100 watts does not draw nearly 15 amps from the AC line. It probably draws 3 amps RMS with something like an Astron linear supply.
QRP might be in your future.
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Thanks, WX7G
I'm not that technical so I looked in the manual and it says that current consumption on transmit is 22 amps and on receive 1 amp. Not being technical, I just went with that.
So, I guess you're right. I'll have to keep experimenting with the highest power I can use. I might just chuck it all and operate from the new QTH; a 2011 VW Jetta TDI. I have operated from the car with an 817nd and worked Europe with 5 watts from the car. With the 897D ,on the internal battery, the 897D will give 20 watts. From the car battery, I guess more but I'll have to keep the engine running to charge the battery and to keep from freezing in New Jersey wx.
By the way, for those who are interested:
The breakers replaced and the replacements both had the same model number: CHFCAF115. The only difference is the new microchip. There is no external difference in appearance. They really should have but a -1 or something to distinquish old from new.
Be careful when you sway these out as the average technician / electricity doesn't know ham radio from that thing you cook on Easter.
Have a great holiday, everyone
Marc, WB2MSC
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22amp on transmit is for 12v. Your 15amp circuit is on 120v. Hence the discrepancy.
It seems like Eaton has incorporated the latest changes into production units. Otherwise they would contain a different model no. or marking
I didn't understand your statement below. You said no replacements did trip but then where were a few trips ???
The replacements did NOT trip on transmit (15m / 100w / dipole). There were a few trips on one of the breakers (the one controlling the transmitter's circuit.) I passed those off as true overloads as they are 15 amp breakers and the FT-897D at 100 watts probably draws nearly that quantity.
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Sorry for the confusion.
I meant that they didn't trip immediately as the originals did. I sent 4 or 5 long bursts of "TEST" and "V" along with my ID and would get a trip two times that I blamed on a overload since the one (of two) breaker that did trip was the one for the circuit I was using. I was going to try and reduce power from 100w to 75w or even 50w but I can't experiment because of my neighbors.
Thanks for the info on power consumption.
Marc, WB2MSC
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It's most likely that the breaker tripped due to RF and not AC current overload.
From what I gather, ARRL testing of AFCI devices has not been performed using established EMC test methods. I suspect we might be stuck with AFCI devices that are not up to the performance levels needed by hams. The last I read, the ARRL test method was to induce RF into the AC line from nearby RF transmissions. This is an ad hoc method that induces signal levels that may not be as high as many amateur installations.
A more appropriate test is to inject (using an injection probe) appropriately modulated CM and DM signals into the AFCI device. The test levels could be established by measuring the CM and DM signal levels at several affected installations. Running 1500 watts I would take the measured CM and DM signal levels and add at least 6 dB to establish a design/test criteria for AFCI devices.
WX7G, NARTE Certified EMC Engineer
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Sounds like you should make that suggestion to Mike Gruber.
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I did make the suggestion and I offered to come out to the ARRL on my dime and time to help but received no reply. I was between EMC consulting jobs at that time and had time to spare.
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I see the proliferation of RFI prone AFCI devices as an existential threat to amateur radio. Get it right or get it wrong and amateur radio may take very different paths.
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I second that notion. I can't fault Eaton, as an ex-computer programmer I know that no matter how well you design, build and test, there will be bugs. Joe Fello has been great. I'm sure he and the other engineers over there are getting bombarded. I live in an apartment and I was extremely surprised that management consented to addressing these problems.
Perhaps if Ham Radio was as widespread as it was in the 60's, someone would have included it into the design and test. Today, no one knows what Ham Radio is. Even the technical guy who installed my replacement breakers had no idea what I was talking about. When I delayed the guy long enough to test the new breakers and sent out CW test bursts, he looked puzzled. He was probably getting ready to call Homeland Security. When I do run mobile in the park it always attracts the local constable.
If I were rich, I would buy a used ambulance, install a complete station in it, outfit it with some form of generator for the radio and heater and operate that way.
Happy New Year guys
Marc, WB2MSC
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If I were rich, I would buy a used ambulance, install a complete station in it, outfit it with some form of generator for the radio and heater and operate that way.
Someone did close to that. He purchased a used TV transmitting van and turned it into a HF mobile command center :) See page 6 of the attached doc (Dec. 2014 issue).
http://www.ncdxc.org/newsletter/dxer-current.pdf
73,
Jonathan W6GX
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Happy new year everybody. Hope all the AFCI problems have been solved.
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Not mine
I suggest that any ham considering moving to apartments or condos, check out the AFCI's first.
There is no way my landlord is going to replace 120 breakers in my apartment building.
I do credit Eaton and my landlord for replacing mine and my immediate neighbor's breakers but it does me no good.
WB2MSC
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No help from the ARRL??
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Eaton won't replace all the RFI sensitive AFCIs?
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how many hundreds of thousands are out there, with no record of who bought what, where, when, and installed how and where? it's like recalling every third Kellogs Frosted Flake in alternate boxes off the line. you have to rattle their cage on each case to get help. the AFCIs meet all appropriate testing for certification.
which means the certification authorities had their heads up...
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Hey guys
I remember sending the ARRL some emails back in July as to my legal recourse and got back some terse reply. It wasn't helpful. Plenty of technical hams on this string have contacted ARRL with the technical issues and don't seem to be at all pleased.
As far as Eaton is concerned, they have been great. On Christmas eve, when my landlord and an electrician replaced just my and my immediate neighbors breakers I went to do a test before they left. As mentioned in an earlier post, my neighbor's breaker didn't trip at 100w on 15m but mine did, a few times. If I could have experimented more, maybe I could have found the power setting that would not trip the breakers. The problem is I live in an apartment building. The landlord said that I tripped a breaker at the other end of the building. Of course, since they were in a hurry to go, I couldn't verify that it was me that tripped the breaker. My neighbors above me and near me had their breakers tripped.
Christmas eve was the last time I heard from Joe at Eaton and he said that he was going to continue working on the problem. Being that I am not in the loop between Joe and my landlord, I don't know anything more.
I have pretty much given up and can't wait for the Spring when I can operate out of the car a few days a week.
Marc, WB2MSC
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Marc, whether you're home or not you'll be blamed every time a breaker trips. For now you might run 5 watts and see what happens.
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I tried lowering power to 5W once and at least one neighbor (nearest the transmitter) was effected,even with the old breakers. No one else complained. One of my 2 AFCIs blew but it wasn't the circuit I was using for the rig so I didn't care. Unfortunately, this is not the neighbor who got the new one. If she was, then I might be able to lower the output to 5w.
The old breakers are very sensitive. I wished that I could have experimented with the new breakers to see how low I could set power and only have my most immediate neighbors breakers changed but I wasn't given the chance.
Marc, WB2MSC
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Have you tried corresponding with your SCM or Division Director??
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Previous attempts by technically minded hams didn't seem to yield any results. The ARRL is studying the AFCI problem in their lab but I don't know if anything will result.
Marc, WB2MSC
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I have replaced these devices with standard breakers in my daughters home when they both failed at different times. I wonder how many gazillion homes still have glass fuses or regular breakers. As far as I 'm concerned this was just a way for some company to make a whole bunch of money by getting the electrical codes to require them. I have owned a home for 50 years and have never had any problem with standard breakers. But of course I understand you can't plug in a 20 amp toaster into a 15 amp circuit. I have built and wired two houses in my lifetime. The house I live in now I didn't, but wished I would have. I wouldn't hire the electricians who did this home to wire an outhouse. Shabby work, and the inspector approved it all.
73, Bill
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Be careful, Bill
Check out local code. I understand that replacing AFCIs with the older style will haunt you, God forbid, in the event of an insurance claim.
Marc
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It has been extremely quiet here on the forum for a few weeks and am just wondering if everyone has gotten all of their Eaton AFCI problems resolved? I think not because as unsuspecting amateurs move into these neighborhoods and suddenly realize they have a problem that this will continue for many, many more years.
Eaton has been most cooperative in dealing with individual cases here in my neighborhood once they are identified. They are also sending the better AFCI's to the electrical contractor to install in houses that are being built next to me as soon as I furnish them the address and lot number when construction starts.
Everyone else getting things taken care of?
73
Terry, W4TL
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I'm still waiting for the 14th house to have them replaced. Larry, NM5LS, is still having AFCIs replaced around his part of the neighborhood. I don't know how many more he has to go.
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I've pretty much given up. Even Joe Fello seems to have given up on me. Living in an apartment with so many people living so near to you means massive breaker replacement. Gotta sweep this one under the rug. Warm WX is almost here and I will use the rig in the mobile. I have been getting into VFH a bit, trying to learn how to use the satellites. Even the ISS just flew over my location according to the tracker but had no luck hearing them.
Marc, WB2MSC
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Eaton should be right there with you. They made the bad breakers and they should be handling this problem no matter how many breakers it takes. I'd press on!
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W5YZ, you're right of course. But I have to deal with my landlord who owns this and many more properties in this part of the country. Getting this guy to do anything is hard. I was lucky that they came to replace my breaker and that of one of my neighbors. That took 6 months. But, he will never allocate resources to replacing, potentially, 60 apartments worth of breakers. Besides, I am a renter and don't even know how long I will be in this apartment.
Marc WB2MSC
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Hi Marc, Guess i'm too much of a militant :). Good luck with your situation. Guess others of us should consider ourselves lucky that we could get this resolved. Of course, you could ask Eaton to handle this problem and deal with the owner. Apparently, the ARRL is still washing their hands in assisting people in your circumstances.
73, George, W5YZ
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Thanks, George
I had the FT-897d in the car yesterday and was able to QSO with a Russian station. It's just a bit difficult to use CW in the mobile. I just ordered a leg iambic. We'll see how that works. While I was operating in the park, another ham drove up and we had a eyeball QSO. I'm also going to try using an MP-1 portable antenna out on the lawn. Maybe I can get the antenna far enough away from the building so the breakers won't pop. I could also reduce power. The only problem here is coordinating with the neighbors. As far as being a militant; that's the only way to get things resolved sometimes.
Marc, WB2MSC
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I spoke with Joe Fello of Eaton yesterday regarding an issue here in my neighborhood. In our conversation I asked him what was the progress on transitioning over to the new generation of Eaton AFCI's that is more tolerant to RF tripping. His response was that as of January 1, 2015 all of the AFCI's manufactured after that date will be the new generation and will be identified with a 2015 date code. This is both good and bad news. The bad news is that Eaton still has an inventory of the older breakers that will trip with RF and it will take time to use that inventory up. The good news is that eventually the good breakers will become commonplace on the market.
If you are having your Eaton AFCI's replaced just be sure that they have a 2015 date code.
73
Terry, W4TL
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Finished finally!! My neighbor across the street had their AFCIs replaced last week and now I finally can get on 17 meters. Just ran a test and all was OK ;D. Been chasing the Malawi station, E30FB and now he is cleared to operate on 17 meters. Know he was just waiting for the word. 14 houses and over 100 AFCIs later we are done.
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OOPS, got a call from one of my neighbors who (I thought) had theirs replaced. They hadn't so I'm waiting until they do to operate on 17M. ??? At least it's repeatable.
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Sorry to hear you have another case! So far I am lucky, I haven't heard a thing from any neighbor.
On the repeatable front, I hope this doesn't become "repeat ad nauseum" for you!
Hang in there.
KF7CG
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Oh well, I don't operate that much on 17 meters, only when I'm chasing exotic stations like E30FB, which I didn't get :'(. By the time you get to my age (78) you wonder how many more chances you might get. On the brighter side I did get the Malawi station 7QAA with 100 watts to a flagpole ;D and one more that the ARRL dropped from my list so I'm happy. Great on your not having heard anything from your neighbors--you would if there was a problem.
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According to the latest QST, the ARRL did a great job handling this problem :o
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According to the latest QST, the ARRL did a great job handling this problem :o
I noticed that too on page 24 of the April QST. Quote, "I just wanted to pass along a quick thanks to ARRL and Eaton for the work you both undertook to fix the AFCI circuit breaker issue". I kind of have to disagree somewhat with that statement. It would appear from the statement that the problem is FIXED. The writers 3 breakers are fixed and not the whole AFCI issue. What about all of the other hams whose problems with the AFCI's are not fixed and all of the hams who unknowingly move into a neighborhood that has many homes that have these breakers in them. They will learn very quickly that the problem is not fixed.
Joe Fello at Eaton is to be commended for his efforts in being responsive in getting the breakers replaced when individual situations are brought to his attention. The ARRL Lab, Mike Gruber, has also worked diligently in an effort to help design an AFCI that will work in the amateur community and tolerate HF RF and not fault trip when exposed to amateur transmissions. My fault with the League in this matter is that I feel they have not publicized this problem very well to the amateur community.
IMHO this so called "FIX" will continue for a long, long time. Most of the amateur community have never heard of an AFCI just ask the next time you are in QSO and see what their answer is. :)
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My wife and I are visiting our son and family in Flowery Branch in June. Maybe we can have an eyeball QSO.
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My wife and I are visiting our son and family in Flowery Branch in June. Maybe we can have an eyeball QSO.
That would be great! Just let me know the time frame you are coming and we will keep the dates open. :)
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Just curious if there is any more news (good or bad) regarding the AFCI issue. It seems as though there were a few here on the blog that had ongoing problems in getting the AFCI's replaced. If these issues are still ongoing it would be good to hear about them.
73, Terry, W4TL
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Hey Terry
I'm the guy living in an apartment. I gave up. Eaton did come down but only replaced my and one of my neighbor's AFCIs. Only about 60 more to go. I am trying other things such as trying to work satellites (not much luck, though), building a WSPR QRP rig (230mw) and operating HF out of the car (good success there).
Marc WB2MSC
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Guess what? My neighbor complained that I was tripping his breakers while I was messing around with WSPR. Just think, these Eaton breakers can't even take 1 lousy watt on 17m. Marc
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Guess what? My neighbor complained that I was tripping his breakers while I was messing around with WSPR. Just think, these Eaton breakers can't even take 1 lousy watt on 17m. Marc
Marc, I assume that this is one of your neighbors that HAS NOT had his breakers replaced. Either way another call to Joe Fello and ARRL Lab is in order.
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Hey W4TL (Is your name Terry?)
You're correct; the only breakers changed on Christmas Eve were mine and one neighbor's. That took 6 months. I don't know what the logic is there.
I am trying to get clarification of PART 15 rules and have send the FCC an email. The FCC emailed me back and actually gave me the name of the guy to contact.
Even with the replacement I was able to trip one of my two new AFCIs but more intermittently and less often at 100w. I don't mind reducing power. But I can't experiment for obvious reasons. I can work Europe with 5 watts out of the mobile on 20/15 meter CW using the FT-817nd. This WSPR actually seems interesting and is a real challenge and you are supposed to use less than 5 watts. I was using 1 watt.
I did e-Mail Joe and he passed me on to Russ Brodsky.
Get this! In order to be a good neighbor, I posted a sign in the lobby of my complex identifying myself and asked anyone with this problem just to write their apartment number on the sheet so I can get an idea of who is affected. Wouldn't you know it, some jerk writes down that I should move or stop using the equipment (which I did for almost 11 months now. )
No good deed goes unpunished!!
Marc
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Marc,
Sorry about your dilemma, you have really got a problem. Hams in today's world who choose to live in a new community of high density housing are fighting a loosing battle. All of the other new electronic devices emit RFI and play havoc with the HF receivers. I have almost a solid S9 noise level on 80 and 40 Meters(2 of my favorite bands) making those bands almost useless to me. I have has no luck in quieting this noise down and I have tried just about everything I know to lower the noise level (from close proximity devices in neighboring devices).
I am to the point of total frustration after dealing with the AFCI issue for over a year and now this. I am seriously considering going total QRT with the hobby after 50 years.
Terry, W4TL
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Terry,
It seems we both have the same problem. I too have an S9 noise level. I also live about 300 ft from high voltage distribution lines - that one was my fault for not thinking.
I am pretty much fed-up with this situation and have pretty much moved my HF QTH into a 2011 VW Jetta. I only get an S6 or so.
But there still might be things we can do. I tried the satellite route but don't have the space for the circularly polarized AZ/EL antenna system. Even if I did, I can imagine my neighbor's reactions. You only get 10-15 minutes on each pass. And you have to keep changing your receive frequency because of the Doppler effect. I did get one of those portable yagis, though. You also need full-duplex which most rigs don't have. I have an old ICOM HT that can run full-duplex.
I thought that WSPR would be good. Everyone uses a watt or so. If you are picked up by a reverse-beacon station, you get plotted on the WSPRnet Internet. I just built a transmitter kit from QRP labs; that was interesting. But, it works and just needs tuning.
Both of the above are technically challenging and, while not your standard DX QSO that we grew up with, it can be fun learning about satellites and their orbits, fooling around on the AMSAT website and, if I can find a way to use WSPR without replacing the AFCIs, I'm good to go. For those living in a less dense area, WSPR will probably not trip the AFCIs.
Maybe there should be a community somewhere that is only for HAMS. Oh well, that won't work.
Terry, don't give up the hobby altogether.
Marc, WB2MSC
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Terry, could you email me your address and phone number? We will be in Flowery Branch next week and maybe we could have an eyeball QSO
George
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With the help from ARRL articles and assistance from the Eaton Corp, Cutler Hammer Div over 150 ARCi
breakers have been replaced in new homes in my community. The tripping was due to 18MHz transmissions.
Problem first started back in Dec of 2014 when I operated as W1AW/4 on 17 meter RTTY for several hours.
Was running on the average of 500 watts to a 3-element beam up 55 ft and pointed to Europe. Seems that the ARCi breakers manufactured
by Cutler-Hammer back in 2013 and late 2014 responded to as little as 5 watts on 18MHz at 500 ft from the source. I tripped breakers as far as 1500 ft.
Contact information was provided by ARRL and the solution started back in Jan-2015 when I contacted Eaton Corp. They assigned a engineer in Atlanta to the case, it took almost six months but the last home received replacement of breakers with a new design on June 5th 2015. I proceeded to test with several different power levels on modes which included CW, SSB, WSJT-X and RTTY starting a 5 watts and all the way up to 700 watts output. I was a happy camper since not one breaker tripped. This issue effected eleven homes and is now corrected. I commend the Eaton Corp for standing by their product and the cost associated in the replacement program. Without the ARRL test results posted on the website I still might be tripping breakers since I do enjoy 17 meters.
73 de Ron W4LDE
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Hi Ron,
If you want to see how this started, goto https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsILD0Fce1s
The ARRL was verrry slow in publisizing this problem. It was very hard to get them to move and Terry and I pushed very hard. This could have been published much earlier than it was.
George, W5YZ
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Well, I'm up here in Canada, in a new area, and just got on the air 2 weeks ago with my first HF radio (been working VHF/UHF till now). Much to my surprise I find that this housing development (with houses as close as 4 feet apart) all have this breaker.
So now I am in contact with the builder, electrician and Eaton to work on a solution.
In answer to the "I feel sorry for the poor Ham that moves into one of these areas..." Guess I am that Ham.
Stay tuned, this could be a bumpy ride.
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Good luck Chris. Let us know how this is progressing. You also might let your SCM, Division Director and Mike Gruber at the ARRL know. They think this problem is solved.
George, W5YZ
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An Update in Calgary
In contact with everyone, the builders, Eaton, the electricians, everyone is "Up to Speed". And they are acting as point contacts in this case..
Now I need to get the word out to everyone in a 500 foot radius, just going to post a notice on the local mail boxes.
Once that is done, I have been asked to transmit at 17 meters at 100 watts so we can see how many are affected. Like they say, "Don't shoot the messenger!"
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I just had a phone call from a ham in The Villages in Florida. Seems the new "Ham" AFCI's they are installing there have problems with RF. What now??? ???
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I just got an email from a ham in Kentucky who just moved into a new home. Guess what :-\
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Given the way buildings and building supply companies stock things, this problem will probably never totally go away.
Have we run into any cheap Chinese clones of these breakers yet?
KF7CG
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How's the situation there in Alberta? ???
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I haven't posted here in quite some time as I have basically gone QRT and have given up amateur radio as a hobby. A friend of mine sent me a link to a recent post on http://www.amateurradio.com/ (http://www.amateurradio.com/) by Bob, K0NR concerning the AFCI's. Some good information in Bob's post. Thanks to Bob for bringing this to the attention of fellow amateurs through another venue.
http://www.amateurradio.com/meet-the-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+amateurradiocom+%28AmateurRadio.com%29 (http://www.amateurradio.com/meet-the-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+amateurradiocom+%28AmateurRadio.com%29)
For information I did notice in an e-mail ad I received a few days ago from Del City advertising Eaton automotive circuit breakers. I just wonder if you are operating HF mobile if this will shut off equipment in your auto if you have these installed in you automobile. HI HI.
Best 73
Terry, W4TL
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I am a new general just getting into HF, and happen to live in a house that was built at the end of 2014. My electric panel has two of the RFI sensitive Eaton AFCI breakers that trip on as little as 20watts on 20 meters. Over the past few weeks I have spent allot of time testing different things trying to get to the bottom of the RFI - things related to my ground, coax, etc, but nothing has fixed this issue. I contacted Eaton and they stated that all of their breakers manufactured after Jan 2015 are the new "ham" friendly breakers. They are shipping me two replacements no charge to see if that remedies the issue. I have no idea if I am tripping my neighbors breakers... Guess I will find out sooner or later. Let's see if I can first get my breakers to stop tripping.
Update 10/22/2015:
All was working just fine for these past several weeks, mostly on 40m... until tonight when I was on 10m with not great SWR (I was rushing things and couldn't get a great tune while participating in a net) and I was in the middle of a fairly long transmit at 100watts and BAM, tripped a breaker. I am guessing it was the poor SWR that caused it..but not exactly sure yet.
Andy
KG7KWG
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How's the situation there in Alberta? ???
Picking up the replacement breaker this afternoon, closest neighbors should be getting the electrician soon. Simply put, still waiting.
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Just to close the loop on my issue with the Eaton AFCI breakers... Eaton sent me the replacement breakers (they stated they are considered the "new ones" if they are manufactured after Jan 2015), I swapped them out and all is well. The breakers are not tripping any longer. Guess that was the fix. No clue if my neighbors breakers are tripping.. I guess time will tell. -73
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How's the situation there in Alberta? ???
Picking up the replacement breaker this afternoon, closest neighbors should be getting the electrician soon. Simply put, still waiting.
Installed the breaker (it is one of the "Ham" breakers), ran a test, 40, 20 17 and 10 meters. The antenna was 10 feet from the house, up to 100 watts. No Tripping!
Time to get the word out, and most important, get back on the air.
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Update in Calgary.
Although Eaton gave the Electricians "free" ham breakers to replace the ones in my Neighbors houses, they are saying and I quote:
"He advised me that there is not a defect in the Arc fault breakers that were installed but that because of the Radio they required a special Arc fault breaker that filters out the frequencies"
Sounds like someone it trying to get out of this by blaming the radio.
If there is no problem with the breakers, why is Eaton providing the "replacements".
So, what do you think, is it the "Radio" or is it the "Breaker"? (I think I know the answer).
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The breaker should "filter out" all radio frequencies in the first place. Had the breaker mfg done their due diligence in the first place then there would be no RFI issues and no need to replace a house full of breakers.
Hams have always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to any type of interference. The "logical" thinking of an average non-technical person is: I don't have any problem with my breakers when you don't transmit so it's got to be the fault of your transmitter.
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The breaker should "filter out" all radio frequencies in the first place. Had the breaker mfg done their due diligence in the first place then there would be no RFI issues and no need to replace a house full of breakers.
Hams have always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to any type of interference. The "logical" thinking of an average non-technical person is: I don't have any problem with my breakers when you don't transmit so it's got to be the fault of your transmitter.
Good thing is for the houses in my area, it is only on the bedroom circuit (1 breaker / house I would suspect).
However, starting next year, Canada will also require them on all circuits.
Yes, some of my neighbors blame the radio, but some who understand the way things work, and are supposed to work, will figure out the correct answer that it is the fault of the breaker. I just try to point them in the right direction.
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My daughter in law worries about the wiring in this house we're in so she says "no radios!". I was miffed but I set to work solving the problem and decided to build a remote station out in the pasture... solar charging a battery. After reading this thread and ones on grounding and RFI I'm glad I was forced into that because it's so ultra-simple with regard to the power wiring and it will be unbundled from all the rfi potential problems going both ways most likely. Just sayin'
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AC7CW
Be sure and stay off of 17 meters if there are AFCIs involved. Look earlier in the thread and see the reach of 17 to AFCIs; 5 watts took out 17+- houses. The problem is that you don't have to be that close with the radio. Other bands not as bad a 17 generally but sensitivity to various bands varies with installation. High power is of course out of the question.
The breakers are sensitive to radiated Amateur (and other) radio frequencies so being disconnected from the home circuit/grid is no guarantee of interference elimination. Metallic conduit and proper shielding of the home wiring might be.
KF7CG
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" My daughter in law worries about the wiring in this house we're in so she says "no radios!". "
I hope you mentioned that cell phones are radio transmitters....... That's what I would do to help.
klc
Electromagnetic radiation burned my skin!
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Has the AFCI problem settled down? Has everybody given up? Or what? I have been fortunate not to have been bothered with the problem, but keep the radar tuned for it for when new construction again starts in my area.
LF7CG
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so look up the IBEW local in the area (electricians' union) and copy this thread to them. minimal issues for them in callbacks and lost income if they demand and install the 2015 labelled AFCIs right off the bat.
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It has not gone away. I had a friend call me last week and he is having AFCI tripping problems and he has the Eaton brand. He had built a new house earlier this year and after he got on the air realized he had the same problem the rest of us with Eaton breakers have. This leads me to believe that they're still producing the faulty breakers. As for me I have gone QRT and have given up because of this issue.
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Isn't it time for the ARRL to actually DO something???? Thought you had the problem solved Terry. This is enough to pi** off the Pope! They have pussy footed around this problem for a long time.
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I have been back on the air for about a month now and I have not heard anything from anybody yet. Mind you I am keeping a low profile and not advertising the fact at this time
I did do the work to have breakers sent to the electrician that did the houses in the area and did post a notice a while back to call them if they experience the issue.
My house is the closest, and my breaker is not tripping, but it is one of the ham breakers. My next door neighbor and the one across the back (the next closest) report no issues, and they have the original breakers (that did trip originally). Why they are not tripping now is beyond me. Mind you I have found the world of digital modes (low power stuff) to be quite interesting, but I have been SSB at 100 watts at times.
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Well I admit this has been an interesting read if not a very long one. Arc fault protectors have just a simple RF detector circuit. AC arcing produces a lot of RF that in frequency, drops off about 6 dB in amplitude per octave. Most RF energy is below 100 KHz. All you need to do is bypass the higher frequency RF at the lead connection of the breaker. Place a .1 uF capacitor of about 250 VDC from the feed lead to ground. RF sensitivity at HF 1.8 to 30 MHz will be reduced about 30-45 dB. So why did Eaton not do this…..at a buck per capacitor they saved millions.
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for starters, there is not room for a safety-X capacitor in the case. you can't snatch much more space because the NEC requires more gutter for wiring.
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Has this problem just quietly died and gone away? Or is it just that no one is reporting their problems very much? Is it that most of the new homes that would have these breakers are in Amateur (oops antenna) banned developments? W4TL, are you safe and sane? Giving up Amateur Radio is a drastic step!
MERRY CHRISTMAS to all, I am going to put some RF in the air tonight.
KF7CG
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Time for the ARRL to publish the problem again.
Merry Christmas to all of you. May all of your Christmases be AFCI free ;D
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I sent an email to Kay Craigie and Dave Sumner asking them to republish the AFCI article, citing the drop in posts on our blog. Maybe they will do it :o
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Kay Craigie's response: "Dear George,
Your message was received and will be taken into consideration. 73, Kay N3KN
"
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I know most of the RFI issues are with Eaton AFCI's. But to me it's not clear whether the new versions cure the issue.
Are other brands known to be immune?
If a guy is doing new or retrofit construction, is there a particular brand to specify for RFI immunity? Square D? Siemens?
Jim K6JH
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The newer versions seem to help with the RFI issues but do not eliminate them entirely. They are also susceptible to other interference such as tread mills, etc.
I would suggest that you contact Mike Gruber at the ARRL Lab and see if they know of other AFCI's that are completely immune to RFI. In a neighborhood with Eaton AFCI's in your neighbors houses this is a good way for amateur radio operators to meet your neighbors.
73
Terry, W4TL
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We have a new entry in the AFCI game. Frank, in Florida. His neighbor apparently had some electrical work and the electricians put in the offending model AFCIs and he is now having to go thru the Eaton AFCI drill. We have sent him all the info he needs to get this fixed. Wishing Frank good luck!
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moved into a new house about a year ago and was very worried of the many
arc fault breakers in the main box. Went ahead and set up the station.
put up a 54 ft. wire vertical 45 ft. from the radio room in the house
.and tried all bands using 1 KW . Not a single problem, I was amazed
the arc fault breakers were all G.E. .
Evidently G.E. Arc fault breakers are ok to use .
Would changing out the Eaton to GE solve this problem?
"Rich"
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moved into a new house about a year ago and was very worried of the many
arc fault breakers in the main box. Went ahead and set up the station.
put up a 54 ft. wire vertical 45 ft. from the radio room in the house
.and tried all bands using 1 KW . Not a single problem, I was amazed
the arc fault breakers were all G.E. .
Evidently G.E. Arc fault breakers are ok to use .
Would changing out the Eaton to GE solve this problem?
"Rich"
Can't use one brand of breaker in another brand panel. You would have to replace the whole panel ($$$$$)
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moved into a new house about a year ago and was very worried of the many
arc fault breakers in the main box. Went ahead and set up the station.
put up a 54 ft. wire vertical 45 ft. from the radio room in the house
.and tried all bands using 1 KW . Not a single problem, I was amazed
the arc fault breakers were all G.E. .
Evidently G.E. Arc fault breakers are ok to use .
Would changing out the Eaton to GE solve this problem?
"Rich"
Can't use one brand of breaker in another brand panel. You would have to replace the whole panel ($$$$$)
I may be wrong on this but someone, maybe Joe Fello at Eaton said if you put another brand AFCI in a panel of a different manufacturer you would be in violation of the NEC. If this is true this could be serious problems if you had an electrical fire. Someone that knows needs to clarify this for me and others.
Terry, W4TL
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Just heard from Frank in Florida. Joe Felo tells him that the new breakers are no longer labeled "HAM". Joe is sending replacement breakers to the home owner and is supposed to reimburse the homeowner for the replacement. I've asked Frank if he wants to join our blog. Hope he does.
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Frank graciously let me post his email to the ARRL re our favorite subject:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2016 at 1:04 PM, fmoore wrote:
Jerry: what I sent to section manager, his vice and W1AW station manager.
73 Frank, K4WFM CW since 1958
Doug: I am Frank Moore K4WFM and I live in Temple Terrace, Florida. I have a neighbor who remodeled a home a little over a year ago and had EATON arc fault breakers installed.
They tripped all the time and he had the electrician pulling his hair out trying solve the problem and had the local power company involved as well.
Being a good neighbor I helped him with the problem with resetting the circuit breaker's when he was out of town. This went on for a year and then my neighbor showed me a paper from an Internet search that mentioned a ham radio cause. Well, he knew I was a ham and we proceeded to test the theory that it could be me causing the trips.
I went from 160 to 20 meters at low power (25 watts) using my K3 and all was good. On 17m all hell broke lose and the breakers went off like microwave popcorn.
I since have found where the ARRL lab and station manager of W1AW tested all the arc fault breakers he could find and found no problem with them until a ham in MN K5yz sent him some EATON breakers and W1AW set them off. The report that ARRL helped solve the problem was reported but clearly that was not the case.
These breakers were in production for years and the "ham" fix did not go into production until January 2015. The breakers in my neighbors home were installed October, 2015.
EATON was very helpful and is sending replacement breakers with the ham fix, but members need to know that every ARC fault breaker made by EATON prior to January 2015 is a ticking time bomb when a ham moves in and gets on 17 meters.
It was because of one non ham seeing a paper about it and seeing my big quad up 60' that he came to see me.
I had thought for a year that I was being a good neighbor by resetting the breakers for him but was the one setting them off. I know that EATON was the problem and wonder why they did not let the league know so they could educate all of us members.
Long story, but the problem is still there when a ham sets up a station in the neighborhood. The league should follow up on this and not think the problem is solved.
Frank Moore, K4WFM
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NEC,... panels and breakers have type ratings. while a Eaton BH might fit a Homeline panel, it is not rated for use in that panel. single-pack breakers generally will say on the back what panel types the breaker is rated for. multipacks, generally for the pros who have a catalog and looked it up first.
there might be physical pressure on the sides that causes intermittent trips... might be electrolytic corrosion issues from breaker clip metal to panel buss metal... might not fit right, loose or the cover won't go on correctly, which could threaten the insulation of the power buss assembly. might look and work fine, but it will never pass inspection.
you can install outlets with one screw to a stud, twisted wires with no box in the attic resting on insulation kraft paper, ground wires to the gas pipe... those are very serious life-threatening violations of the NEC. obvious ones.
but the wrong breaker in the panel could also be.
don't start screwing around piling up wrongs. one of them will certainly bite. get the right breakers.
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Frank Moore, K4WFM in Florida is having trouble posting on our blog:
"George: I created a membership on eham and when I sign in it welcomes me as
K4WFM. When I go to the Forums it changes me to anonymous and I can only
read and not post. Am I doing something wrong? Do I need to create
membership in the forums separately?
Frank"
Anybody got a suggestion?
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These troublesome AFCI's are similar to a rattlesnake in a cotton patch. You know the rattlesnake is out there but you don't know where he is at and when he is going to appear and strike. LOL ;D Eaton should have to identify where they are at and be required to replace all of them.
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I just heard from Frank, K4WFM:
"George: my neighbor had his electrician install the breakers EATON sent and I ran a test on them, 1.8 - 30MHz up to 1KW with no popping. I guess my issue is resolved but I pity the person with the old breakers when a ham moves into the area.
I talked to a few ARRL officials at the Orlando fest but really did not leave with a warm feeling.
Frank K4WFM"
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going to be a continuous thing, killing each mouse you see without fixing the soffit hole that let them in and nest.
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Well, I'm up here in Canada, in a new area, and just got on the air 2 weeks ago with my first HF radio (been working VHF/UHF till now). Much to my surprise I find that this housing development (with houses as close as 4 feet apart) all have this breaker.
So now I am in contact with the builder, electrician and Eaton to work on a solution.
Seems to me that the biggest problem isn't the occasional remodeling job that catches you by surprise, but an entire development of homes using RFI susceptible breakers. How difficult is it to identify defective breakers if you are a prospective buyer who can get access to the breaker panel of a home?
Zack W1VT
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The hard part is that they all look alike when they are installed.
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The hard part is that they all look alike when they are installed.
Does that mean the only way to identify the problematic breakers is to trip them with a source of RF?
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that sounds about right, get your area home inspectors licensed and packing a 17m transceiver with them. call CQ at about 10 watts, and if the breakers trip, it's a red flag.
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Another way to discover who has the faulty AFCI's is if you have a HF radio mounted in your vehicle is to drive around your neighborhood after dark calling CQ in CW mode and watch for the lights to go out. You can find out real quick where the problem breakers are at when the lights go out.
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that sorta smells like malicious interference. I wouldn't do that. keep your antennas up and warm, and the problems will self-identify to you. after all, you got those radio things up, you're a suspect.
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that sorta smells like malicious interference. I wouldn't do that. keep your antennas up and warm, and the problems will self-identify to you. after all, you got those radio things up, you're a suspect.
You are most likely the proximate cause of the breakers tripping, though the root cause is bad breakers. Now try to explain and sell that to someone who has to have his kids program his cell phone.
KF7CG
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I have just finished a club presentation for a local ham who has been having tripping issues with Eaton breakers.
After installing the breaker with the YELLOW button on it (not the white or blue button) he could transmit up to 500 watts without tripping any in his home-- HOWEVER--
In his housing development the builder installed the original white or blue in ALL the houses so if he transmits 500 watts his house is OK but he trips his neighbors breakers. The only real solution is to change to Square D breakers ad box in all the close-by homes or replace the Eaton breakers in all the homes. This is NOT a practical solution. Only a mandate from the FCC would get this to happen. BEWARE of Eaton breakers in the neighborhood unless they all have yellow buttons on them.
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I did a complete home remodel in 2012 and a new electrical panel and house wire were brought up to our 2012 code standards. Eaton AFCI breakers were installed in most circuits as required at that time. I have had no trips due to RFI in these 4 years. I operate on 160 through 15 meters with a maximum of 100 watts. (usually CW). My antennas are 50 to 100 feet away from the breaker panel. The antennas are all properly constructed dipoles, verticals, and Yagi's with standard grounds, baluns, etc.
All of my AFCI breakers have a yellow button. The only problem I have had is that some tools or one of our vacuum cleaners must be plugged into a non AFCI circuit to prevent the arcs from tripping the AFCI breaker. Our neighbors are all over 100 yards away and are all old construction....over 50 years old??, so I doubt there are any AFCI breakers within a half mile from our house.
It cost some serious money to bring everything up standard, but believe it was well worth the effort. Arc Fault breakers really do work.....we have had several trips due to arcs...for example in a CFL lightbulb.....possibly it may have even prevented a fire.
Good luck on your trouble shooting, Rick KL7CW Palmer, Alaska
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Joe, Tell your friend he needs to go through the drill with Eaton, Joe Felo etc. It's Eaton's problem. If he needs any info, have him check this blog.
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Only a mandate from the FCC would get this to happen.
I don't think the FCC has jurisdiction over non-telecom devices and their lack of performance. The EMI standard the AFCI's are qualified against needs to be strengthened (anyone know? ANSI-xxx?)
Maybe a class action lawsuit?
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the electrical code is managed by the National Fire Protection Association. but the practical test standards are implemented by UL, with alternate test agencies CSA and ETL vying for the business. UL is the big dog in the US, and if something is wired neatly and everything has UL or RU (Registered device, Underwriters laboratories) inspectors check "good" and move on. you could inquire of Underwriters Laboratories in Evanston, Illinois whether they think false trips that might impact life-safety equipment (home medical equipment and hardwired fire/co alarms) means anything to them.
could cause a riot. could cause a new trashcan to be installed in the mailroom. I think it would be a long shot for them to launch a review with comments from industry and lab testing over a few thousand 17 meter enthusiasts. but it is an issue.
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Probable response from UL would be to regulate Amateur Radio to not trip breakers.
KF7CG
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as I said, cause a riot.
it may be proprietary engineering, this business of what the signature of an arc looks like, and what it doesn't. there appears to be general acceptance that perhaps by random accident, only one manufacturer happened to have the barn door open wide enough for carrier wave in radio frequencies. Eaton worked it out when it became enough signal over noise to attract attention.
there really is no machinery to recall equipment that works too well in switchgear. remember, safety is off. "dangers occur when power flows" to the regulatory system.
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there really is no machinery to recall equipment that works too well in switchgear. remember, safety is off. "dangers occur when power flows" to the regulatory system.
Except of course life support medical equipment, like ventilators, that have a limited amount of battery power to run through a blackout. Danger is when it stops!
The best safety is for devices to work-as-intended, and keep working. An AFCI is supposed to be a last resort mitigation for something else that breaks, not the cause of the initial failure.
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http://www.jik.com/Power%20Planning%2010.24.09.pdf
Here is a useful document that describes how to prepare for a power outage if you require a ventilator.
As this document points out, it is not uncommon for disabled people to have several sets of deep cycle batteries used to power mobility devices.
Katrina was a wake up call for those with and those caring for people with disabilities.
https://www.ncd.gov/publications/2006/Aug072006
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I know this is an old thread but I wanted to give an update to the resolution of my issues with afci breakers.
We moved into a townhouse community in Sept 2013. By January 2914, I had finally gotten the rig out and an Alpha EZ-Military vertical set up on the back deck. Long story short, after six months of effort and constantly tripping eight afci breakers even at 5 watts output, I called Eaton and found out that any Eaton AFCI's manufactured after Jan 2015 contained a fix for HF and VHF RFI triggering. I replaced four of them that I purchased from Home Depot. All four had date codes of April, 2015. Those new four never tripped. So, I bought four more, installed them, and my problem was solved.
At least at my house. I slowly increased my output power to 65 watts with no complaints from my adjacent neighbors. They both reported that their breakers were fine. I never told them what I was doing because transmitting antennas of any kind are prohibited by our covenants (natch). I have since removed the vertical and installed a dipole in my attic. I operated PSK-31 and JT65 for seven months with nary a complaint.
A week ago, I cranked my output up to 90 watts and then 100. None of my afci's tripped. But the association emails started to appear. I was blowing banks of afci's in houses up to 100 yards from mine. One of them suggested that they had already replaced a couple of theirs for other reasons (vacuum cleaner was tripping them). My only hope is that some of them will replace theirs too. I'll never know and I'll never ask so I'm stuck at 65 watts. My other hope is that they will never figure out that I was the root cause.
The main point though is that RFI-free ones are now available if you are struggling with a new house that has tripping Eaton afci's when you transmit.
73
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Since your antenna is in the attic, the association has no say about it. It's a real pain to get Eaton to fix the problem but it is their problem. BTW, Eaton should pay for the breakers you bought.
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This is a place that the ARRL could step in and help. Don't hold your breath.
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To the credit of the ARRL, they have worked long and hard with Eaton to get things to the point they are. Physical, building code, and financial problems slow progress.
The first crop of breakers tested to be "Ham" resistant passed in the ARRL Labs, but failed in the field. Some residential areas have few problems as building codes require all the wiring to be run in metallic bonded and grounded conduit (shielding at its best), in many others the construction of the building is all non-metallic and even what little conduit there is, is plastic.
From what I read, one could theorize the part of the sensitivity of a breaker to Amateur Radio is "antenna" dependent and is therefore tied to the vagaries of actual house wiring practices.
Not to say that the ARRL could not do more; however, they have done quite a bit only quietly.
KF7CG
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KD4ES is exactly what we discovered during the presentation mentioned above. His house is fixed but at more than 100 watts he blows his neighbors Eaton arc faults. His do not trip, since he switched them all to the ones with the yellow button. So Eaton solcved the issue but in a new neighborhood where one builder built all the houses it's still an issue since your neighbors have the older breakers.
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I'm getting ready to rewire my old house, including meter, main, and sub panels. Since I'll have to bring everything up to modern code, I'll be needing arc fault breakers for many areas. Is the general consensus that the Eaton AFCIs with the yellow button made after January 2015 are the ones to use? For the amount of money and labor this is going to take I'd hate to have to replace them again.
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Take a picture of the breaker and send it to Joe Felo or post it here and maybe we'll be able to tell you if you have the right ones.
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Better yet, use another brand of AFCI's other than Eaton. Most of the other brands seemed to be impervious to tripping with RF.
Looking back and knowing what I know now. There would not be any Eaton AFCI's in my panel.
Terry, W4TL
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Hadn't thought of that ???. Best to avoid the problem in the first place!
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I have some Square-D AFCI's (in a Square D panel, of course) and have had no problems. I run 100W max.
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The only reason not to use AFCI's other than Eaton is the question of breaker to panel compatibility. Even though they may physically fit, some breakers are not listed for use with some panels and that is at least an insurance no no. It may mean that when the rewiring is done the panel brand is changed also.
It is somewhat of a rule of thumb and sometimes code, that the panel and breakers are the same brand or are in each others approved list.
KF7CG
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I recently got my General license and set up an HF transceiver in my shack. On the very first day, I tried to use 20m, and poof! the breaker for my shack and five more in the panel tripped. I had no idea what was going on. As you can imagine my wife was none too pleased. I did a google search and ran across this forum thread. When I went back to the panel, sure enough... 14 Eaton AFCI breakers. My house was built in 2013, right around the time this issue came to light.
I did some more experimenting, and they would trip at any power level on 20m. Even just tuning the antenna on 20m was enough to trip them. One of the circuits also consistently tripped when I operated on 40m. I checked with all of the neighbors in a 500ft radius, and none of them experienced any tripping. All of the other houses in the neighborhood are older, so they may not have AFCIs. One house was built this year, so it probably does, but maybe has a new version or a different brand.
I sent an email to Joe Fello at Eaton, and just yesterday I received a box with 14 new AFCIs. I will have them installed next week and report the results.
73,
Dan, N1ADM (formerly KM4SNH)
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Dan, I forwarded your post to the ARRL President, K5UR, as an example of why it needs to republish an article on the AFCI problem. Didn't include your name or call sign. Gotta keep after them!
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A Google search on "arrl afci" or "arci rfi" brings up this page
http://www.arrl.org/gfci-and-afci-devices
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Well I thought I had the problem licked with the new green labeled AFCI breakers.
I would still have them trip every once in awhile many on 80 meters.
What I ended up doing is purchasing a Common Mode Filter Choke / Noise Suppressor / Line Isolator from "My Antennas".
http://myantennas.com/wp/product/cmc-130-3k/
Problem solved. No more tripping the AFCI breakers. I run 500w on 160, 80, 40, 20, 17. No more tripping.
73, DJ
VA3KBC
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Where did you install the install the choke? At the antenna feed point or in the feed line near your transmitter?
Terry, W4TL
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The current digital archive by Nxtbook Media has a "full text search," which allows you to search for "afci" in past four years of QST.
But, I think it only searches the editorial content--not the advertisements.
Zack W1VT
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Installed up at the feed point.
DJ, VA3KBC
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I'll be giving a presentation on AFCIs at the Duke City Hamfest in Albuqueque somewhere around the 12-14th of August. Hopefully somebody will learn something. ::)
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I just had an interesting experience at our Ham Club meeting on Saturday. I was asked to make a few comments on the AFCI problem and a new guy stood up and said he had experienced the problem at his apartment and couldn't figure out what caused it (other than his transmitting). Just shows how this hasn't been spread around very well. Fortunately, he moved to an area that is older.
I haven't heard back from the ARRL about my request to republish the AFCI problem in QST. Hope they do.
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The ARRL has a new CEO now, so maybe we need to enlighten him as to the League's "sticking their head in the sand" on this issue. He may be more receptive than the previous administration.
Terry, W4TL
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I went into Home Depot yesterday, Eaton AFCIs "bad actors" on the shelf.
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Terry, they're tired of hearing from me. Why don't you give it a try?
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QST - August 2014 (Page 55)
... my arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) circuit breakers for other rooms ...
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/arrl/qst_201408/index.php?startid=55
Result 2 :
QST - February 2014 (Page 83)
... an arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) breaker manufacturer to resolve complaints ...
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/arrl/qst_201402/index.php?startid=83
Result 3 :
QST - April 2015 (Page 24)
... me to get three replacement AFCI circuit breakers. I think a ...
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/arrl/qst_201504/index.php?startid=24
Result 4 :
QST - February 2014 (Page 84)
... Joe Carcia, NJ1Q, with the AFCI test stand. [Mike Gruber, W1MG ...
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/arrl/qst_201402/index.php?startid=84
A search on "AFCI" from a digital QST should bring up links to these recently published articles.
On May 27th I got my first complaint about the new full text search in the digital QST--the
search on "echolink" returned so many hits that he found it useless! But, you can still use the
old article archive search functions to look for newly published articles.
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:DMy neighbor down the street just called to tell me that the electricians are coming by tomorrow to install new AFCIs. Hope they are the right ones. I intend to run a test after they are installed.
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Hooray!! The last of the offending AFCIs replaced today. Clean test on 17M. Marked BRCF115HAM,
140624-0380593
Don't know if that is any different than the other HAM breakers. Still haven't learned how to put a picture on here. ???
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I think that you can now post pictures on QRZ.com. I think this site only allows links--to post pictures here you need to host the pictures on another site and link to it.
Zack W1VT
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Well, as predicted an unsuspecting amateur has moved into a neighborhood of more than 1100 homes that is laden with the Eaton AFCI's. He is also a member of the ARRL and had never heard of the troublesome devices until I informed him.
Let me explain. A ham friend of mine from Tennessee recently moved into our community. I did not know that he was a resident here until I saw his name on the "New Neighbors" list. I called him to welcome him to the community and asked him if he knew of the problem with the Eaton AFCI's. He advised that he was not aware of AFCI's and their problems. I pointed him to this blog so that he could become somewhat aware of the situation. Point is when he starts operating on HF he is going to meet probably 25-30 of his neighbors in short order once they realize the problem is being triggered by his operating. He lives about 1/4 mile from me and the houses that are in his area were built about the same time as mine so I am sure they are laden with the same Eaton AFCI's as mine was in the beginning.
I wished him well in getting on the air and meeting his neighbors and helping them resolve their AFCI problems. Having an unsuspecting ham move into a neighborhood loaded with these devices and the problems that ensue when they start tripping because of HF operation just gives amateur radio another "black eye".
Just my thoughts.
73,
Terry, W4TL
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One big part of the AFCI problem is that the general public doesn't know anything about the problem or whom to contact. Since they know nothing of the physics involved the succumb to the old fallacy know in Latin as Port Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. That is, this happened after that therefore that is the cause of this. In this case they would even be technically correct, if we didn't operate HF their chances of trips would be extremely small.
Add to this that they bought there house from a reputable builder who followed all the codes, therefore something like that can't be the fault of part of their home. I don't know how the ARRL or any Amateur organization educates the public about the incompatibilities without risking pushback in the form of a suggestion to ban Amateur Radio. It could eventually become as bad as the Antenna ban problem.
My thoughts are that we need to develop as subtle non-threatening means of educating the general public, because they are the majority and if enough are frightened or inconvenienced, we will be forced of HF for public safety. Remember AFCI's are mandated by Fire Protection Codes.
All Amateurs need to know of and whom to contact for AFCI interference problems, and the general public also needs to be made aware of the problem in such a way that they do not blame Amateur Radio. Uniformed question; What is more important Amateur Radio Operation or Fire Safety? Without public education, that is the eventual question.
KF7CG
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Since they know nothing of the physics involved the succumb to the old fallacy know in Latin as Port Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. That is, this happened after that therefore that is the cause of this.
KF7CG
or better stated:
Tantum stultus delictum utitur arcus interruptus
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Uniformed question; What is more important Amateur Radio Operation or Fire Safety?
KF7CG
In the U.S. there are 70,000 electrical fires a year resulting in 485 deaths and nearly $1B in property losses. The potential of AFCIs to reduce this is huge.
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Eaton has owned the issue, and developed a fix. free SKUs on problems. good for them.
however, there are zillions of the old units out there. they are legal and safe, meet all code requirements, and when they fail, they fail open from the interference. also legal and safe according to the thoughts behind the Code.
the big issue remaining is that zoning and compliance generally takes into account that drunken Uncle Joe is not qualified to remove the deadfront and replace a funky AFCI with the free-on-issues ones that Eaton sends out. I don't know if they provide full reimbursement to the Eaton Certified electricians to go out, whistle up the RF immune units, and replace them on complaint. but it would be nice.
if there is a HOA in that community, they should be notified of the situation, and the contact at Eaton. send it anonomously, if you have to, halfway on the way to work. let them notify everybody. better yet, next guy that has the oven trip out during the holidays, let the HOA contact their electrician, and work out a shotgun of the things all across the properties. for maybe $50 a pop, they might do it.
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Eaton has owned the issue, and developed a fix. free SKUs on problems. good for them.
Send w1rfi@arrl a note, I believe he can point you at the right person for the low down on how to get Eaton involved. I believe the ARRL was involved in getting Eaton to own the issue.
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W1RFI was very nasty to me in an email, personal attack. I have written another email to the president and the CEO of the ARRL requesting republishing of the AFCI problem. I don't the answer is going to be any different than the previous administration. What would help is others writing them. We have 22 people on this blog that were adversely attected by this problem. The problem is widespread across the states (14 states and 2 Canadian Provinces). At least two were unresolved due to landlord's refusal to do anything. At any rate, we need to mount a email attack to the HQ.
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I'm building a new home. Should I specify EATON HAM arc fault interrupters and not bother with any other brand?
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have your architect write in the special part number with no "or equivalent" line for each type of breaker. those he doesn't have, he can get from Eaton engineering. or, go with Homeline, the ones the ARRL got didn't trip. I'd also have him put a contingent line in there "final approval of electric subsystems subject to interference testing with licensed amateur radio equipment" or something like that.
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Anybody written the ARRL yet?
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Is anybody out there?? ???
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(dern power won't stay on)
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:D
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I just got an email from a ham in The Villages, Florida who said that Eaton replaced over 20,000 of these AFCIs in that and another town. Based on when it was done, I think they went back to the old version when it was still code. This happened before Terry started this blog.
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Here are two quotes from a ham in Kentucky and one in Florida:
K8HSY Kentucky
Hi, George, Regarding problems with AFCIs, I initially had all Eaton breakers in this new house, and it was the Eaton breakers giving me so much trouble. I contacted Eaton and the ARRL, and was enormously disappointed with the responses from both sources. ARRL simply referred me to Joe Fello in Eaton. After several phone calls and emails between Joe Fello and me, I finally just gave up on Eaton. All I got was a total run around, lots of unfulfilled promises, and absolutely no results. Finally I just said to hell with Eaton, and bit the bullet and had my electrician replace all of the Eaton breakers with Square-D breakers. This was a major job because it required changing out both of my breaker boxes, not simply replacing the breakers. However, the good news is that since I installed the Square-D breakers, we no longer have problems with our breakers tripping off when I operate my ham gear or when my wife runs the clothes washer or when our refrigerator and freezers kick on. It was so bad with the Eaton breakers that we were simply sitting at the table one evening eating our dinner, and suddenly, our lights went off. For no apparent reason, one of the Eaton breakers just tripped off.
NP2B
Hi George,
We moved into our new house on the 8th of May, 2012 and toward the very end of the month when I first put up a dipole in the attic, is when I had the problem. We've had 20+ hams that have had the problem and the electrical contractors have taken care of it. As of a year ago, our ec had replaced over 6000 breakers and another had done likewise. They were each replacing several hundred a week. I haven't heard of any complaints recently. My concern now is when a ham moves into an area or someone in the area gets a license and puts an HF rig on the air where these things are common and no ham has operated from there before.
Add 20 more hams and one new state to the list. 49 hams and 15 states and 2 Provinces
I'm going to put together a final try to the CEO of the ARRL. If that doesn't work, I will cancel my ARRL membership. Has anyone written to them lately??
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This is a draft of the message to Tom Gallagher, CEO ARRL that I will send out once I get comments back. You are free to comment.
Dear Tom,
I writing to you on behalf of myself and 51 other operators (that we know about) in 17 state and 2 Canadian Provinces. All of us have one thing in common: we have had problems with Eaton's BR Combination Arc Fault Interrupt. Most of the problems occur when a ham moves to a new neighborhood, although 2 were because they or a neighbor "upgraded" their circuit breaker box to these AFCIs.
I first discovered the problem during the chase for the 75th anniversary of the DXCC and started chasing DX on 17 meters. Up to that point I had no problems operating 40-10 meters with my 100 watts and a flagpole antenna. My side of the street had the old "unimproved" AFCI version which is impervious to HF. The other side of the street had the new AFCIs and 14 houses lost power to one or more circuits. Another ham in our community affected 28 houses on most of the ham bands. All told, over 450 AFCIs were replaced in our community.
Back in November 2013 QST published an article outlining this problem and what to do. It's time to republish the information so that hams that have this problem are aware that it is not their fault and there are solutions.
Many of the hams that have joined our blog on eham.com are new generals. It was disheartening to tune your rig up only to see power go off in parts of the house. Some hams had their boxes rewired to accept SquareD AFCIs at a lot of expense. This after contacting Eaton with no or little response. Some live in apartments and their landlords have said "NO" even though the replacement is free of charge.
This problem is not a result of "a bad batch" as suggested by some of your staff but is widespread as a result of Eaton producing defective AFCI for several years. If an automaker put out something this defective, it would have been recalled.
There are several things the ARRL could to help:
1 Publish the problem again in QST
2. Inform your Division Directors and SCMs to disseminate the information on a regular basis.
3. Put together a package that can be informative to the ham and his neighbors when this problem is encountered. This could be online in the form of a brochure.
4. Be prepared to provide legal assistance to hams who WILL be sued as a result of tripping someone's refrigerator while they are on vacation or worse still, tripping an AFCI that supplies power to some life support system. I had already asked our previous Director this question and he said "NO".
Please let us know of ARRL's intentions.
Below is a list of some of the hams that we know of that have been affected and some of the comments.
73, George Key, W5YZ and 51 others
AL-1
AZ-3
CA-2
CO-2
FL-22
GA-4
HI-1
IA-1
MD-1
MN-2
NC-3
NJ-1
NM-3
PA-2
TN-1
TX-2
UT-1
CANADA-2
AK2L AZ New house
K4WFM FL Neighbor remodeled and put in Eaton AFCIs
K6NRT CA New House
KA7KDX UT Apartment "I never in a million years considered breakers shutting me down".
KD4ES GA Tripped his own and neighbors up to 100 yards away.
KG4FUM TN New Ham
KG7KWG AZ New general.
N0UK NC Apartment 5 watts 17M
N1ADM GA New general class, tripped on first use.
NM5LS NM 28 houses affected
NP2B FL "Over 6,000 replaced in The Villages" 20+HAMS AFFECTED
VE6CWG ALB New house
W0VTT MN New house
W4LDE GA Tripped breakers up to 1500 feet.
W4TL GA I may have to QRT
W5IV NM 4 houses affected
W5UV TX Tripped with mobile rig in his driveway.
W5YZ NM Took me two years to get it fixed. 14 houses affected.
WA0VLC IA New House
WA9PIE TX "This is a bad deal and puts a black eye on ham radio"
WB2MSC NJ 62 apartments affected. Gave up HF.
WN4HOG NC Replaced with SquareD
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I sent the email to Tom Gallagher, ARRL CEO and got an encouraging response:
George:
"Thanks for your thorough and very helpful email. I am forwarding it to:
Ed Hare, the ARRL Lab Manager and resident expert on RFI interference for his views;
Steve Ford, Editor-In-Chief of QST for ideas on how to provide coverage;
Chris Imlay, General Counsel for the Washington DC view.
I think all of your suggestions are sound. Now we must determine how to implement them.
Please stay in touch, as I will with you. Thanks for all you contribute to the Amateur Radio Community—and especially on this discouraging development.
73 Tom"
From the ARRL General Council, "I agree with Tom that George has provided some very useful information and we will want to look for a solution to the problem straight away. As George says, this will give ham radio a black eye and we don't need that.
I do take issue, though, with the suggestion that hams will be sued for creating RFI. While that has happened rarely in the past, the case law, including Supreme Court case law is very, very clear and 1982 legislation made it amply clear as well that hams cannot be successfully sued as the result of RFI to neighbors electronic equipment. Only the FCC has jurisdiction to regulate RFI and FCC has stated several times that they are aware of this and agree with it. They have preempted court actions alleging RFI and damages resulting from RFI. We have an overwhelmingly favorable legal argument to protect hams in this situation.
That said, George is correct to the extent that suits could be filed and would have to be defended and we don't want equipment contributing to RF noise. In this respect we will make sure that ARRL's EMI committee chaired by ARRL Director Kermit Carlson is aware of this and our experts (Ed and Mike) Tom has already brought in.
Thanks to George for the information.
73, Chris Imlay W3KD
ARRL General Counsel"
TIME WILL TELL but I am encouraged.
73, George, W5YZ
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I'm giving a AFCI presentation at the Duke City Hamfest in Albuquerque on Saturday the 13th at 1300 (Bad luck??). Check out https://dukecityhamfest.org/schedule-detailed/ .
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I think there should be a class action lawsuit regarding these miserable pieces of . . .
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I'm giving a AFCI presentation at the Duke City Hamfest in Albuquerque on Saturday the 13th at 1300 (Bad luck??). Check out https://dukecityhamfest.org/schedule-detailed/ .
George, how did your presentation go? Were there any there that did not know the AFCI problem exists or could occur if they move into a neighborhood that is laden with these devices.
Terry, W4TL
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SOLVED MY PROBLEMS WITH ONE OF THESE.
EITHER ONE WILL WORK.
http://myantennas.com/wp/product/cmc-130-3k/
http://www.balundesigns.com/model-1116di-hf-low-band-optimized-1-31-mhz-5kw/
VA3KBC
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VA3KBC, how does either of the products solve the radiated RF susceptibility of the AFCI's in question. From all evidence so far the susceptible units are sensitive to radiated RF and need no RF conduction to the source. Nice thoughts, but wrong thread.
KF7CG
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The answer is that common mode currents bring radiated RF closer to the house / shack since the feedline is participating as part of the antenna. As a result, AFCI devices that are susceptible to radiated RF will see a stronger RF near field increasing the likelihood of nuisance trips .
By keeping common mode currents off of the feedline, the RF field is further removed from the vicinity of the affected AFCI devices and you then have FSPL (Free Space Path Loss) working in your favor.
- Glenn W9IQ
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My presentation went great. About 20 people attended and several wanted a copy of the presentation to take back to their clubs.
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Congratulations, George. I would appreciate a copy too. W9IQ at ARRL dot NET. Thanks!
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You got it!
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Is anyone out there. It's been a long time since anyone has posted. I'm assuming that all the problems have been solved, except for one house here in our subdivision. Seems the owner had been gone for a long time and came back to find several AFCIs tripped. The local Eaton rep, a new guy, didn't know anything about the AFCI/RFI problem so we are having to go through the education process again. This is a precursor of what is going to happen in the future as people move around. Haven't seen anything in QST about the problem (maybe I missed it). Hopefully, they won't renege on their word.
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We now have a new case, Rob KE5TM, in San Antonio who moved into a new neighborhood and found that he had "bad" AFCIs. Just another example. Haven't seen anything from the ARRL on the subject. Beginning to think the email from the new administration may have been eyewash. We will see.
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Haven't seen anything from the ARRL on the subject. Beginning to think the email from the new administration may have been eyewash. We will see.
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems
Also call Mike in the lab, he can help you.
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That was 3 years ago.
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That was 3 years ago.
Did you call Mike? Last I heard the ARRL was still assisting in this sort of thing... If not, let me know please.
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Dave, this is what the ARRL said in response to my email to them about the AFCI problem:
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #655 on: August 01, 2016, 02:35:20 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
I sent the email to Tom Gallagher, ARRL CEO and got an encouraging response:
George:
"Thanks for your thorough and very helpful email. I am forwarding it to:
Ed Hare, the ARRL Lab Manager and resident expert on RFI interference for his views;
Steve Ford, Editor-In-Chief of QST for ideas on how to provide coverage;
Chris Imlay, General Counsel for the Washington DC view.
I think all of your suggestions are sound. Now we must determine how to implement them.
Please stay in touch, as I will with you. Thanks for all you contribute to the Amateur Radio Community—and especially on this discouraging development.
73 Tom"
From the ARRL General Council, "I agree with Tom that George has provided some very useful information and we will want to look for a solution to the problem straight away. As George says, this will give ham radio a black eye and we don't need that.
I do take issue, though, with the suggestion that hams will be sued for creating RFI. While that has happened rarely in the past, the case law, including Supreme Court case law is very, very clear and 1982 legislation made it amply clear as well that hams cannot be successfully sued as the result of RFI to neighbors electronic equipment. Only the FCC has jurisdiction to regulate RFI and FCC has stated several times that they are aware of this and agree with it. They have preempted court actions alleging RFI and damages resulting from RFI. We have an overwhelmingly favorable legal argument to protect hams in this situation.
That said, George is correct to the extent that suits could be filed and would have to be defended and we don't want equipment contributing to RF noise. In this respect we will make sure that ARRL's EMI committee chaired by ARRL Director Kermit Carlson is aware of this and our experts (Ed and Mike) Tom has already brought in.
Thanks to George for the information.
73, Chris Imlay W3KD
ARRL General Counsel"
TIME WILL TELL but I am encouraged.
73, George, W5YZ
At this point I'm starting to get dubious of what action the ARRL is going to take.
The email I sent to the ARRL is on one of the preceding pages on this blog.
73 and happy holidays, George W5YZ
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Hi George,
Thanks for sharing, and Merry Christmas to you as well! Please do keep us in the loop in this.
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Dave, this is what the ARRL said in response to my email to them about the AFCI problem:
View Profile Email Personal Message (Online)
RE: Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)
« Reply #655 on: August 01, 2016, 02:35:20 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote
I sent the email to Tom Gallagher, ARRL CEO and got an encouraging response:
George:
"Thanks for your thorough and very helpful email. I am forwarding it to:
Ed Hare, the ARRL Lab Manager and resident expert on RFI interference for his views;
Steve Ford, Editor-In-Chief of QST for ideas on how to provide coverage;
Chris Imlay, General Counsel for the Washington DC view.
I think all of your suggestions are sound. Now we must determine how to implement them.
Please stay in touch, as I will with you. Thanks for all you contribute to the Amateur Radio Community—and especially on this discouraging development.
73 Tom"
From the ARRL General Council, "I agree with Tom that George has provided some very useful information and we will want to look for a solution to the problem straight away. As George says, this will give ham radio a black eye and we don't need that.
I do take issue, though, with the suggestion that hams will be sued for creating RFI. While that has happened rarely in the past, the case law, including Supreme Court case law is very, very clear and 1982 legislation made it amply clear as well that hams cannot be successfully sued as the result of RFI to neighbors electronic equipment. Only the FCC has jurisdiction to regulate RFI and FCC has stated several times that they are aware of this and agree with it. They have preempted court actions alleging RFI and damages resulting from RFI. We have an overwhelmingly favorable legal argument to protect hams in this situation.
That said, George is correct to the extent that suits could be filed and would have to be defended and we don't want equipment contributing to RF noise. In this respect we will make sure that ARRL's EMI committee chaired by ARRL Director Kermit Carlson is aware of this and our experts (Ed and Mike) Tom has already brought in.
Thanks to George for the information.
73, Chris Imlay W3KD
ARRL General Counsel"
TIME WILL TELL but I am encouraged.
73, George, W5YZ
At this point I'm starting to get dubious of what action the ARRL is going to take.
The email I sent to the ARRL is on one of the preceding pages on this blog.
73 and happy holidays, George W5YZ
Until Congress removes the exclusive jurisdiction to the FCC over matters involving RFI and allows private lawsuits as a legal remedy, no outcome is ever likely.
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the outcome is to refer complainers to this thread, and an Eaton Certified electrician. if it's within the one-year warranty common on new homes, stick the builder with any costs under their warranty. make them aware the hard way, and they won't take any old AFCI off the shelf, they will spec the right ones. the key is education, and a few hits in the wallet.
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the outcome is to refer complainers to this thread, and an Eaton Certified electrician. if it's within the one-year warranty common on new homes, stick the builder with any costs under their warranty. make them aware the hard way, and they won't take any old AFCI off the shelf, they will spec the right ones. the key is education, and a few hits in the wallet.
Bravo! That is EXACTLY the way to do it...
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If you move into a neighborhood where the AFCIs are more than one year old, you have no recourse with the buildere.
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yep. then the other homeowners have to have their electrician contact Eaton directly. the labor is minimal, and they have apparently refunded some of it per other posts here. the news is full of goofs. at least Eaton has been standing up and taking care of it.
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I just moved to a new community with the Eaton circuit breakers. All rig tuneup procedures trip the breakers with the exception of my QRP rig running 1.5 watts output during tuneup. I believe the system is well grounded. The local electrician did not know about this issue. He uses SquareD breakers.
After perusing most of this thread, it seems the first step is to contact Eaton. Do you agree? Thanks for any suggestions to get this situation fixed. Merry Christmas to all.
N3WBJ
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Yup, contact Eaton. If they have an Eaton Certified Electrician in the area, they will let you know. All the breakers should have their part number in tiny tiny type on the front near OFF position, send those along, so they send the right ones for ham service.
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Thank you KD0REQ.
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Just heard from a ham in New Jersey who moved into a new neighborhood. Guess what. More AFCI stories. These will never end. Still waiting for the ARRL to publish something. Emailed Tom Gallagher last week and he said he would talk to W2RFI about it. Nothing yet.
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Haven't heard anything from Tom Gallagher yet. Sent him another email asking if anything was new. No response. ???
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I finally heard from Tom Gallagher:
"George:
Got your big type message sent to Rick Roderick. Your email is in the hands of two of the League’s most capable executives and also on the desk of our general counsel. We will make a determination as to whether or not there is any action we can take on this issue as promptly as we can.
Thanks, George, best 73, Tom "
WE shall see ???
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I just moved everything to the outside patio, the transceiver, erected my Buddipole, in a dipole configuration, resonant on 14.100 1:1 SWR with 49 ohm measured impedance and all of the feedline outside. The antenna was about 25 to 30 feet from the house. The electrical circuit I used for this experiment was a GFCI. I had the transmitter set to 45 watts. I keyed up sent out a few T E S T DE W4TL's. When I went back inside to check the AFCI breakers they had tripped again. The GFCI used for the power supply did not trip. This leads me to believe that the problem is with the Eaton breakers not being able to withstand a near field RF environment. I did hear back from Mike Gruber, K1MG at the ARRL Lab and he said he was looking into this and would get back to me next week (Memorial Day Weekend) :)
GFCI and AFCI are two completely different animals. The AFCI are much more sensitive to the type of current that a ham's antenna can induce into the wiring connected to the breaker. I would not compare the two when considering RFI/EMI.
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I have an Eaton type CH load center. I have no AFCI breakers at all, but want to upgrade some of the branches with them - especially ones that have old wiring.
But after reading just a tiny part of this thread, I'm worried. Will my low power (HW-101, 100 watts max) rig with end-fed or dipole antenna on 40m cause the same kind of problems? I haven't finished refurbishment work on the rig and its PSU, so haven't made a transmission yet. I'm considering running only 10 watts, but reading here, that might still cause the AFCI's to trip.
I think for now, I"m going to purchase one CHFCAF120 breaker to install on the branch that feeds my ham equipment. If I can get that breaker not to trip out when I transmit, then I'll start buying and installing others one at a time.
One thing I may have in my favour is that the old wiring in my house is AC (armoured cable) type, which should help reject RFI. OTOH, the length of the cable might just happen to be a function of 1/2 wavelength at my transmitting frequency... then I've got an antenna, not a shield.
But I guess I need to experiment on my own first. One breaker won't break me (pun intended), and perhaps what I learn can be used by others in the same boat.
Frank - KE2KB
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From what I have seen here, 17 meters is the biggest problem but any band can cause a trip even with low power if the breakers is of the wrong series. I remember a document case of 5 watts on 17 meters tripping breakers in multiple neighboring houses. Of course here is the final variable for you, what lengths of power cord are being run to the appliances that are plugged in?
KF7CG
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might be a case where you put ferrites on line cords at the plug, rather than at the equipment, as a stopgap measure.
grounded AC flex should reduce the line pickup substantially, depending on age. the continuity is friction-fit, and as the galvanization oxidizes, it is not impossible for an old flex shield to become a string of diodes.
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Glad to see that people are still watching. :)
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Given the new building-electrical codes; AFCI coming soon to a home near to you!
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I just bought an Eaton combination breaker type CH CAF/GF 20 Amps. From what I have read, the GFCI won't be the problem - it's the AFCI that might. Does anyone have data for the combination type breakers compared to the straight AF type?
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As a follow up to a message from December, I had a technician replace the original breakers with a recommended Eaton breaker GEN 4. The breaker tripping stopped using the 20 meter dipole. However, I installed a 75 meter dipole from Hy Power (with load coils) and breakers are again popping everywhere. I have rerouted the antenna several times.
I contacted ARRL and spoke with Mike. He referred me to Joe Fello or Bob Handick of Eaton.
Does anyone have any suggestions with respect to speaking with Eaton?
Thanks,
N3WBJ
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Seems like they still don't have it right. You might email Tom Gallagher at the ARRL to get his take.
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W5YZ, thank you.
N3WBJ
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While waiting for a response, test every band on which you can possibly operate! From DC to daylight and as many modes as you can manage, this interference can be a hit or miss proposition though my following of the threads on this lead me to believe that 17 meters was the worst.
Next we will have to start monitoring the performance of all our appliances as the internet of things expands. Your home appliances are now hacking targets, how much longer till RFI?
KF7CG
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It's been several weeks and I was able to speak with Bob Handick of Eaton. He said the GEN4 breaker is their answer to the problem and offered no further information or suggestions. I do seem to have a stable situation now operating at 100 watts.
My next door neighbor has one breaker that trips occasionally so I am going to have the electrician solve that problem with a GEN4.
This has been an unfortunate experience and I feel Eaton should pay for the breaker replacement ($239 without labor) but decided to forego that option and eliminate the stress on me:).
Thanks to all who took their time and provided suggestions.
Good luck to all who have the old Eaton breakers.
73,
N3WBJ
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They SHOULD pay. Did you talk to Joe Felo? I hope this isn't the start of something new. Maybe a email to Tom Gallagher is in order. Keep us apprised of the situation because we could maybe get help from the ARRL.
George, W5YZ
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N3WBJ your situation still seems to be far from correct.
Limited to 100 watts because of a circuit breaker that shouldn't respond to your signal at all is not good. Passable, maybe, but definitely not good.
$239 + labor to fix an neighbor's problem that was caused by Eaton in not good and may even set the wrong precedence. Please forward all the history of the problem to the ARRL and failing a response, to any and all other Ham Publications and organizations.
David, KF7CG
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I wrote to the ARRL (CEO and 2nd VP) asking if this is the "new normal". I tried to email Mike Gruber but it got rejected. Guess I don't have the right handshake. At our ham club meeting last Wednesday, I was told that I needed to "drop it" by the New Mexico section manager. He also had Eaton AFCIs in his new house and he ripped them out. The 2nd VP (Brian Mileshosky, N5ZGT) was there and explained that he thought Eaton didn't have to do anything more. I would hate to tell the 14 neighbors I affected and one of my friends here that affected 28 homes that they would have to pay for the repairs themselves so that I could practice my hobby. Living in a HOA community, I'd probably find myself in court or being fined by the HOA. Even though I could win the case in court, I'd still be stuck with legal fees, unless I got help from the ARRL. They have already told me that they wouldn't get involved.
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W5YZ: Thanks for your reply. I did not ask Eaton to pay for the new breakers. As I stated, I don't need the extra stress even though I do think the original breaker has a design issue (my opinion). No, I did not speak with Joe Felo. That's the status right now. I intend to replace the neighbor's breaker when they return from vacation. Before I spoke with Eaton, I contacted the ARRL (Mike) and he gave me the names at Eaton; no other suggestions were given.
KF7CG: Thanks for your reply. I did not mean to imply that the breaker issue limited me to 100 watts output. At present, I do not operate with an additional external amplifier. The breakers cost me $239 and I don't recall the specific labor charge; I had other labor in the overall total. I have not replaced the neighbor's single breaker as explained above. At present, only my adjacent neighbor is affected and I am hoping that's it.
I agree this is not an ideal situation.
73,
Bill N3WBJ
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At my new QTH the neighbor's Eaton AFCIs were tripping with 100 watts to a dipole on 40-15 meters. The AFCIs have been replaced with standard circuit breakers and Eaton will be contacted.
In my house I installed (house is new construction) GE AFCIs and so far there has been no RF tripping at 100 watts.
KH6AQ (formerly WX7G)
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the decades-long response of the ARRL is "cooperate, but operate." point the affected parties to this thread and, per the regs, operate the minimum power necessary to make the contact. you have a Federal license to use the radio. they don't have a Federal license to run the dishwasher. if they deign to get after Eaton, excellent. if they don't, they will eventually have to issue a special maintenance bill to put new breakers or panels in all the units. that's what HOAs do.
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HOAs may be hesitant to issue a special assessment for something like this. More likely they will go after the ham even though they are in the wrong. If you are faced with a lawsuit the ARRL will not assist you. This is not an assumption but right from the ARRL's legal beagle.
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At my new QTH the neighbor's Eaton AFCIs were tripping with 100 watts to a dipole on 40-15 meters. The AFCIs have been replaced with standard circuit breakers and Eaton will be contacted.
In my house I installed (house is new construction) GE AFCIs and so far there has been no RF tripping at 100 watts.
KH6AQ (formerly WX7G)
I acquired an amplifier and at 500 watts my GE AFCI circuit breakers are not bothered.
I spoke to neighbor #2 and his electrician as they were planning to wire up his new house and told them about the Eaton circuit breakers and RFI. This is the same electrician who dealt with the Eaton RFI issue at neighbor #1's house. So, what did the electrician do when he wired neighbor #2's house? He went ahead and installed Eaton AFCI circuit breakers.
KH6AQ formerly WX7G
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And you know whose fault it will be when all those Eaton breakers trip. You have already told the electrician that your radio interferes with AFCI breakers. As some of the Sci-Fi folks would say it is a TANJ bad situation.
KF7CG
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Wx7G
Have you gotten that second neighbor's breakers yet? Hope not, but would like to know if the Eaton breakers used were the correct ones just for curiosity.
KF7CG
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Neighbor #2, the one who had standard (not the HAM suffix model) Eaton AFCI devices installed, is not yet connected to the power lines.
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It looks like our fearless leaders at the ARRL have decided that they have done enough. This based on comments at a recent club meeting. SAD :-\
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Any updates on your problem Dave? This is something that the ARRL should be aware of that they are still installing the bad ones.
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While I was working on an antenna in my back yard yesterday, my neighbor came to the fence and told me he'd been Googling to find out why his AFCI breakers were tripping and he heard from some internet blogs that it could be from my radios...This was before I had heard about this problem, though I did say I'd check my station to make sure no spurious emissions were occurring, and I did ask what brand breakers he had. Right away I checked eHam and found out about these faulty Eaton breakers... I went to HRO and put RFI chokes on all my inter-rig and antenna coax as well as power cords, on the chance that spurious RF was getting into the wiring, making it act like a transmitting antenna. I've got 8 foot grounding rods for the R8 base section and for all the shack equipment, connected by very short runs of solid copper wire. And with Bencher low pass filter the only thing getting out of my QTH is the RF I mean to transmit...
Sure enough the next day I find out he's got the dreaded Eaton breakers...Gave him the ARRL notices regarding the problem and how to contact Eaton to get their "fixed" breakers (I'll believe it when I see it), and I even offered to install them. After reading this thread I think he'd be better off getting another brand breaker, if he can find one compatible with his panel...
This is a neighborhood of single family homes with a few duplexes and small apartment complexes, so no HOA restrictions, etc. With an FFC license to operate my station and so long as I'm controlling my RF signals within FCC rules, I could continue to pursue the hobby. Of course you can always be sued, but you'd win in Court (actually it would probably be dismissed fairly early). There might be some attorney costs, which is where having a homeowner's policy rider and/or a separate personal liability umbrella policy is very helpful...
Keeping peace with my neighbors, however, means a lot me, so I hope Eaton will fix this problem.
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Glad you found this blog. Maybe the ARRL would be interested in your story. Keep us informed. Do you belong to a ham radio club? They might be interested too. Is your neighbor's house new construction or did you just start transmitting?
73, George
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Any updates on your problem Dave? This is something that the ARRL should be aware of that they are still installing the bad ones.
The electrical work is done at the neighbor's house including Eaton AFCIs. The electric company will hook in soon and we'll see what happens.
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I just emailed Tom Galligher regarding the two recent AFCI problems in Hawaii and Oakland. I also asked him if the ARRL planned to have any AFCI discussions at the Hamvention. Waiting for a reply.
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Got an email back. Guess DARA not the ARRL controls the agendas.
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Glad you found this blog. Maybe the ARRL would be interested in your story. Keep us informed. Do you belong to a ham radio club? They might be interested too. Is your neighbor's house new construction or did you just start transmitting?
73, George
Thanks, George. The neighbors did a major renovation a year or so ago, including rewiring and installing a new service panel with a few of those Eaton breakers... I was off HF for a while and just got back on this year. Been at this same QTH since the 90's and never had this sort of problem. This weekend I moved my 40/80 dipole further from my neighbors and have been staying off 20 (since some comments indicated 20 and 17 were the problem bands), but I still tripped the breakers when I was 40! This is really freaking annoying. I've done everything I can to clean up my transmissions. I'd be happy to let the ARRL know my story, though I'm not sure what more they could do. The problem is those defective Eaton breakers and from what I've been reading I fear they may not have really fixed them.
I'm a member of a RACES organization but not an actual radio club.
73,
Nick
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If you are on good terms with your neighbor, get together to have an attorney to write Eaton a letter. The defect is well documented so it will take a good attorney only 2-3 hours to get the job done.
- Glenn W9IQ
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Call Joe Felo at Eaton. They are supposed to replace the defective AFCIs for nothing including labor. If you don't get results, call Mike Gruber at the ARRL and let him know. The more people that call the ARRL the more likely they will publish something again in QST. Contact Bob Handick (412-893-3746) or Joe Fello (412-893-3745) at Eaton. Keep us apprised.
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Thanks for all the comments. My neighbor called Eaton and they are sending new breakers (3) and hopefully these will fix the problem. Neighbor said the panel was updated around 2013 or so, so these are the older type breakers. I ran a test on 20-40-80 this AM with my neighbor at the panel on a cell phone. I used two dipoles for 20/40 and 40/80 and an R8, and ran from 10W to 500W test transmissions around the middle of each band. The R8 tripped the breakers with 10-20W on 20 and 40. Apparently the dipoles were OK on 20, 40 and 80 even at higher power, which was a bit unexpected though quite welcome. The R8 is closest to the neighbor, I'd guess around 60', and the dipoles are about another 30' further away, though I doubt that explains the difference. The R8 is about 12' off the ground on an outbuilding and the dipoles are about 30' above ground. All three antennas have 1:1 in-line isolators at their feedpoints, and I've got ferrite chokes on just about every power cord and coax cable in the shack, and all the electronic equipment is properly grounded. So for now I'll be using by dipoles and hopefully I'll be able to use the vertical when the new breakers get here.
I like the idea of using ferrite RF chokes in the AFCI feeds, but don't know if they would actually help. I guess it depends on how RF makes them trip. If it has to come into the breakers on the circuit wires, they might work. But if RF generated by an arc fault is what normally makes them trip (and I don't know that it does), an RF choke would also prevent them from working the way they are supposed to...
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Anything new Nick?
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We really need to keep this thread alive because it's one of the only sources of information available. So, post something!
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Anybody out there??
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Here and lurking. Nothing in my house to cause problems and neighbor houses are old enough not to be a problem unless someone remodels. A lot of new homes in my area just not close to my home, but in town.
KF7CG
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Happy 4th of July to you and everyone out there.
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The ARRL is going to publish AFCI info in September: This from Tom Gallagher:
George
As you can see from the response the article is scheduled shortly. You may not know but that date represents an accelerated time line since typical time between authors submission and publication is 6-9 months.
Tom
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Anybody out there??
It's been a good while since I visited this forum as I have for the most part given up on operating because of the density of this 1140 home Del Webb Community (The Village at Deaton Creek). It has been at least 2 years since I have operated HF from this location. I am in Phase III of this community and all of the 400 homes + or - in this Phase have the faulty Eaton AFCI's.
To explain how this affects unknowing amateurs I'll try to explain. I have had 2 ham friends move into this community knowing nothing about the AFCI issue. They bought existing homes from former residents. Both of these amateurs began asking me about antennas, etc and were about to try to get on the air. I advised them to seek information about the Eaton AFCI's and make their own decision about trying to get on the air in this neighborhood. I advised them that when they started operating that they were going to get to meet their new neighbors real quick. After reading information on this forum and others they both decided it would be best if they didn't try because of the inherent problems associated with these devices.
This is the whole point of this issue, when an unsuspecting amateur moves into a neighborhood full of these devilish devices they are going to be in for a rude awakening (my 2 ham friends certainly were).
I hope everyone is doing well and I will be waiting to see how much in depth the ARRL will publish this new information about the AFCI issue. Will it be a few sentences or will it be an in depth article (which in MHO it should be)? We'll just have to wait and see.
73'
Terry, W4TL
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Welcome back Terry. Hope you sent this to Tom Gallagher.
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Welcome back Terry. Hope you sent this to Tom Gallagher.
Yep. welcome back. Hoping that something "good" comes out of this. We have Eaton breakers in out 3 y.o. house, but they are not arc fault type. September QST is not that far off...reading August right now. GL 73
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Neighbor #2, the one who had standard (not the HAM suffix model) Eaton AFCI devices installed, is not yet connected to the power lines.
Neighbor #2 is connected to the grid now and his Eaton AFCI devices are not tripping when I run 500 watts to a vertical 90' from his house. So far only 40 and 20 meters have been tested. After I talked to his electrician the electrician said he will use GE AFCI devices from now on.
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We did some testing and at least one Eaton AFCI device is tripping from RF. Joe Fello at Eaton will be contacted.
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The September QST article on AFCIs is available at arrl.org/afci-devices Well written by Mike Gruber.
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Just noticed that this blog has over 700,000 views
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I never anticipated running into the issues outlined in this thread. We moved in July to a home built four years ago, and I just tested a couple of antenna configurations on HF (random wire and a dipole). Multiple breakers began to trip, even at 15 Watts on 40/20/15m.
That led me to this thread, the ARRL article, and other discussions, along with the discovery that I have the Eaton AFCIs in this house that were manufactured in Dec 2012. Bummer. My shack also happens to be located in a 1st-floor room directly above the electrical panel installed in the basement, so any stray RF is likely to find its way into the wiring.
Eaton referred me to a local distributor so I am attempting to get them to help me resolve this. I presume the 10-year warranty on these would lead Eaton to give me replacement breakers free of charge, wouldn't it? Is it also fair to assume I would be responsible for the installation of the new breakers?
Thanks for all the crossflow of information in this thread. And I hope and pray my neighbors aren't experiencing tripped AFCIs on my behalf!
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Hi Kevin, Sorry to hear about your problem. Please insist to Eaton that they pay for both the new breakers and the installation. Notify Mike Gruber at the ARRL mgruber@arrl.org if they give you any trouble.
I had 14 homes affected by this problem. I chose to talk to my neighbors and send them a letter explaining the problem. Eaton replaced the breakers on my block along with the breakers in 28 houses that were affected by another ham in our neighborhood. My letter:
Dear neighbor,
As you may know, I've been working to resolve a problem of defective Arc Fault Circuit Interrupts (AFCIs) that were installed in your power box when your house was built. These AFCIs are vulnerable to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) from various sources including my amateur radio transmissions. Eaton Corporation, AFCI manufacturer, has agreed to replace these at no charge to you. These new breakers should also reduce the incidence of nuisance tripping that is also associated with vacuum cleaners, treadmills and other appliances.
Eaton has tasked XYZ Electric to replace the ones in your box. They will come by at your convenience. You will need to contact John DOE to schedule the replacement. His phone number is XXX_XXX_XXXX.
If possible, please let me know when they complete the installation. The AFCIs should be the latest version.
This changeout will take about 45 minutes and you will be without power for that time. XYZ Electric will take the old ones away.
Thanks in advance,
George Key
1042 Prairie Zinnia Drive
Bernalillo, NM
If you need any more help, just email me at gskey(at)q(dot)com.
Good luck!
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Kevin, is this a new house or neighborhood? If so, it means that the installers still have the bad AFCIs on the shelf.
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I would not call the AFCIs defective, but I would call them deficient.
Will the new (actually they are the HAM suffix verison) AFCIs really affect nuisance tripping?
I don't know that the AFCIs Eaton will install are the latest version, they are supposed to be a special HAM suffix version.
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Hopefully we will hear something from Kevin
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Hopefully we will hear something from Kevin
Thank you all for the recommendations.
I picked up the AFCIs on Friday from the distributor (before you posted on Saturday) and decided to install them myself. 13 breakers took a couple of hours to replace, especially since the new version of the breakers (manufactured in Dec 2016) has very short and straight pigtails. The original installation had longer pigtails running to positions on the neutral bar that were further down the panel, so I had to extend the pigtails with wire nuts. As I understand it, wiring multiple pigtails to the same entry point is a no-no.
Fortunately, the replacement breakers do work. I haven't exceeded 40 Watts output yet on HF (40m and 15m) but will do so over the next week or two and watch the lights in neighboring homes to see if anything happens. I'm reluctant to bring it up quite yet but may eventually have no choice. These breakers don't contain any "ham" markings--they just happen to be from a much newer lot.
The homes in our neighborhood were mostly built 3-5 years ago, all by the same builder (Ryan Homes), so it is very likely the others use AFCIs made around the same time.
73,
Kevin KZ3L
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I should mention that Eaton is replacing these under warranty.
However, the distributor wanted me to remove all the breakers first and do an even swap for the replacements. With 26 wires hanging out of the panel and the power off for several hours, including drive time, that was a nonstarter. Instead, I bought the new AFCIs from the distributor and they will refund my credit card when I bring the others back. I could have fought that but wanted to get this resolved ASAP... no real net loss in the end.
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Ten days in and all continues to work well... no tripped breakers and no evidence of interference with the neighbors' breakers.
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Great, Kevin
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The letter to the editor in the latest issue of QST is a reminder of why we kept pushing the ARRL for its article on AFCIs.
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Terry, I was visiting my son in Flowery Branch and drove by your development. Wow, It's grown since the last time we were there. Lots of AFCIs.
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replying to an earlier note on my Eaton AFCI and GFCI breakers popping. To recap - new build home, new sub division, all installed with apparently the Gen 4 Eaton breakers, with many popping when I key up. I have a 20/40m fan dipole in the attic.
We had one electrician visit so far. He had never heard of this issue even with his 20+ years in the business. But he did contact Eaton and received 4 new breakers (only 4 culprits at the time). I had all 4 pop with the first key up. So back to Eaton he goes. Nothing more at this point. Commenting on an earlier post, his comment was this was the best that Eaton has to "fix the issue". They are still talking with Eaton.
Something he did note is that the breakers have long pig tails. The instructions say to not trim these, but its common in industry to do that as it makes the installation look neat. On the ones he reinstalled he left them long, but they still popped.
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My suggestion is that you contact Joe Felo and tell him your problem. Also contact Mike Gruber at the ARRL. What you have is unacceptable.
Joe Felo: 412-893-3745
Mike Gruber: mgruber@arrl.org
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If you don't take QST, check out the AFCI article in the September issue. http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Lab/Gruber.pdf
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Uh oh, do I have some "bad" breakers? Here are some pics of the ones I have.
(http://i65.tinypic.com/29pb1fr.jpg)
(http://i64.tinypic.com/34xjpkh.jpg)
(http://i63.tinypic.com/kdmrut.jpg)
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Doesn't look too promising. Do you need any help from here?
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Thanks George, not at the moment. I will do some testing and get back to y'all. This thread is great!
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Happy holidays and testing :D
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Happy holidays and testing :D
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to y'all too!
I bought these online for a small subpanel. If they trip, I will return them and get the newer ones since I have an Eaton box.
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Thanks to all on this thread. I returned and replaced all the old style susceptible breakers with newer non-susceptible!
Y'all are awesome. :D
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The last QST had an article about Tom Gallagher retiring. Bas3ed on the help he gave us, I think we should all send him a bon voyage message. I did.
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Another tripper in our neighborhood. Apparently they were gone when we tested for the problem. We shall see how Eaton handles this one.
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How did things go with the new "tripper" in the neighborhood?
New houses are going up in my area. Hopefully they are at a sufficient distance that they will not be effected by my radios. I generally only run 100 watts and they are about 1/2 mile straight line from my antennas. I occasionally go to 700 watts if I need the power for communicating. Since they are on a street behind in a rural area I may never know.
Has the AFCI problem gone away for new construction?
KF7cg
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Does VHF and UHF effect these AFCI's?
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i don't know, others that have more experience with might. From what i have read in this long thread, 17 meters appears to be one of the worst offenders?
David
KF7CG
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My understanding is the breakers are only looking for frequencies from 2.0 up to 30 mhz, with, as mentioned, 17 mhz being the "Sweet Spot".
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If you own the house, why not just remove the AFCI breaker and replace it with a conventional breaker? Everyone survived many years without one. These are just another overbearing safety measure in my opinion.
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If you own the house, why not just remove the AFCI breaker and replace it with a conventional breaker? Everyone survived many years without one. These are just another overbearing safety measure in my opinion.
Good idea, may work for your place, but your insurance company might have another opinion. However, it won't fix the problems with your neighbors.
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Hello all.
I moved into a young subdivision on the west side of Albuquerque a few years ago. I have been passively enjoying amature radio for many years but finally succumbed to the active bug and passed the testing (licensed extra in Nov 2018) and bough a transceiver, only to find out that I trip several AFCI breakers in my home when I key up even at very low powers 5-10W. Checking the web found many instances of this as you know related to Eaton AFCI's. checked my panel and sure enough, I have 13 of the bad AFCI breakers and I am sure most of the other homes do as well. These homes were built mostly in 2011-2012. I have called and emailed details to Eaton and have received a reply from a Robert Handick stating that they will send me replacement breakers at no charge but seem to indicate that I will have to pay to have them installed. Has anyone successfully had Eaton pay for installation lately? I have seen older posts from several years ago stating that they did this in the past, should they still?
I haven't checked with the neighbors yet to see if I have been tripping theirs, I wanted to see how Eaton will handle this before I approach them but I plan to take this up with our homeowners association later this month to make sure they are aware of this issue that likely exists in all the homes in our subdivision
Steve - AG5SF
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S,
" I plan to take this up with our homeowners association later this month..... "
Please consider giving this some more thought. It may be possible for you to operate without tripping your neighbors breakers, so I don't think it is wise for you to put your neck out on this yet. It would be easier for the homeowners ass. to " Just say NO " and be done with it.
klc
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KB2WIG
My reasoning for approaching the board is this:
The boards function is to look out for the home owners and the board has participated in informing owners in the community in other items where building defects or deficiencies have been uncovered that may be common to all houses in the subdivision. The circuit breakers in question are covered by a 10 year manuf warranty that will be expiring in the next few years for most owners. As an owner, I would like to know if I have defective product in my house that could be replaced under warranty at no cost or minimal cost before the warranty period expires.
We had experienced nuisance trips on our breakers before I had a transmitter, just never connected the dots. Its likely other owners are experiencing these as well.
Lastly, my wife is on the board. The worst outcome that I can foresee is that they "say no" and decide to do nothing. The best outcome is that they pass along information about this issue to all owners so that they are informed and can decide their own paths.
I have reviewed the HOA restrictions on antennas and I am in compliance with their rules so I see no recourse there from the board. I am tripping my breakers at my lowest power setting I can use, I don't know yet if I am affecting my neighbors but at some point, I am going to want to increase power for other modes
What am I missing?
Thanks for yours and others inputs to this dilemma
Steve -AG5SF
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We set-up a new manufactured home to use as a getaway (from Trump) house this past summer. It came with about 15 of the Eaton AFCIs and wired-in smoke detectors, both of which I could trip when transmitting on HF, even at 100W.
The whole saga is here. (https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/suggest-a-multiband-antenna-for-75-40-20m.623526/#post-4760011)
I was able to solve the problem by getting rid of common-mode current on the coax feedline by symmetry of the antenna (replacing a manufactured OCFD with a homebrew ZS6BKW), use of earthing ground rods, bonding to the steel frame of the house, and placement of ferrite common-mode chokes along the feedline. I can now run a kW (SB220) on 75m, 40m and 20m with no spurious trips.
That saga is here (https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/suggest-a-multiband-antenna-for-75-40-20m.623526/page-10#post-4814650)
and
here. (https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/how-long-is-the-ladder-line.625023/page-2#post-4774790)
Along the way, I wrote a couple unfavorable reviews of the BuckMaster OCF antenna,
here. (https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/5838)
The takeaway is antenna placement (in this case at right angles to the house, so both legs of the antenna are equidistant from the house), minimizing common-mode currents on the feedline by paying attention to symmetry, choking, and earthing. I have talked about the magic formula of how to suppress common-mode current on coax,
here. (https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/could-use-some-guidance-on-my-first-hf-rig-dipole-installation.640982/page-5#post-4923975)
I called Eaton and they offered to ship me a new set of AFCIs, but as yet I haven't asked for a new set because I fixed the problem the way an Engineer would approach the problem. The way I did it will not work for every one, because I can orient the antenna any way I want (160 acres), and the home has a steel frame under the floor (improves grounding).
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HI Steve, First let me say this is Eaton's problem, not yours. I don't know where you live in Albuquerque, but I live in Del Webb Alegria in Bernalillo. We were one of the first to experience this problem. In fact there were more than 40 houses affected by this problem. Eaton has in the past replaced all the defective AFCIs at no cost to the home owner, labor included. We have 4 active hams in our neighborhood but some are not affected because the AFCIs were of a different type that are immune to RF. I had 14 houses on my street affected. I sent two of the offending breakers to the ARRL and they proved that the AFCIs were defective. I did not involve the HOA because I was able to work with my neighbors who seemed to understand the problem. None of the other hams did either. We ran a test with our neighbors to see how many houses were affected and Eaton hired a local electrical contractor to remove and install the new ones. 17 meters was the worst. If you want to talk to me just email me at georgekey1955 at gmail dot com. This is a nationwide problem. At last count hams in 22 states and 2 Canadian provinces reported problems. My approach and the approach of the other hams in the neighborhood was to visit the neighbors and ask them if they were having problems and to explain what was causing it. I sent each neighbor a letter outlining the problem and what Eaton was doing to correct it. Here is what my letter said:
Dear neighbor,
As you may know, I've been working to resolve a problem of defective Arc Fault Circuit Interrupts (AFCIs) that were installed in your power box when your house was built. These AFCIs are vulnerable to Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) from various sources including my amateur radio transmissions. Eaton Corporation, AFCI manufacturer, has agreed to replace these at no charge to you. These new breakers should also reduce the incidence of nuisance tripping that is also associated with vacuum cleaners, treadmills and other appliances.
Eaton has tasked XXX Electric to replace the ones in your box. They will come by at your convenience. You will need to contact at XXXX to schedule the replacement. His phone number is 505-888-XXXX.
If possible, please let me know when they complete the installation. The AFCIs should be the newest version that is not vulnerable to RF.
This changeout will take about 45 minutes and you will be without power for that time. Haskins will take the old ones away.
BTW, using a generator or batteries will not resolve the problem :'(
Let me know if I can be of assistance.
BTW2, the local Eaton rep is
Trent Martinez, 828-3800x11
George, W5YZ
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Eaton confirmed that they are still committed to paying for the replacement AFCIs and the labor to install them for both the ham and the neighbors. :)
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The September 2017 QST has the latest contact information for Eaton.
SEP 2017 - QST (PG. 32)
Questions and Answers About Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters
ARRL Members can view recent articles via a PageSuite App
http://www.arrl.org/qst
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Three members of our radio club and the resident ham did a test today and we decided to quit after numerous houses were affected by transmissions on 17 meters. I think it's time that we get Eaton to do these tests. We are basically doing what they should have been doing all along. I plan to demand the ARRL step in and make Eaton do what is right. The ham should notify the ARRL and they should give Eaton the info as to where the ham is and Eaton should take it from there. Eaton recently said that "recent tests show that AFCIs out to 500 feet from the transmitter may be affected". They actuall did some tests??? We think they should replace all AFCIs within 500'. We currently have 2 hams who live about 500' apart so that is a big area. We will see how the ARRL and Eaton respond.
George, W5YZ
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It also depends on the power output. On my 100 watt radio, nothing trips. Not even breakers in my house. After I bought an amplifier, breakers nearby starting tripping at about 200 watts. I consulted the neighbors, and 2-3 houses down from mine were impacted, but not across the street. 4-5 months later (yes, it took Eaton THAT LONG to replace breakers in 4 houses!), I was able to fire up the amp and tune to about 800 watts. The new breakers did work great, but then the neighbors breakers across the street started tripping. Luckily it was only 2 additional houses, but still - now I have to wait probably another month or two for Eaton to replace their breakers.
I can only imagine how long it will take them to replace 10-20 houses worth of breakers. There would be a class action law suit against Eaton for the crap product that they designed.
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So far the only action the ARRL has taken is two articles in QST. This case is going to be a doozy! Lots of people were not home so we don't know what happened at their house. We are not going to keep testing until we catch them all. I don't know how Eaton is going to handle it because I haven't sent them a test report yet. We will see ???
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BTW, power levels as low as 5 watts can trip these breakers. It really seems to depend on the individual installations and the wiring. 17 meters is the biggest culprit.
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With regard to the two hams in ABQ who are having the problem, I wrote to Eaton with a test report and got the reply today:
George,
We are working now to locate and hire a local electrical contractor to go around to verify effected homes and they will replace breakers as needed. They will start with the HAM operator’s home and spread out from there.
So it looks like Eaton is responding. I still wonder how they are going to find all the homes that are "effected"(sic).
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My house had 5 of those AFCI breakers and the first thing I did was to trash them and install regular breakers. No problem now.
An electrician cannot do that for you, but you may. That part of the NEC is crap in my book. I'm an electrician and generally go
by the book. BUT there are exceptions. The code is not as rigid as you might think. You will see something like " there SHALL be
etc." Look up shall. The legal definition is "mandatory with NO exceptions. Then reading further down the page, you will see
"Exception 1 , Exception 2 etc." My opinion is to trash the AFCI breakers and use the standard ones.
73 Clayton K4QM
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Any problems with your neighbors??
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I just corresponded with The Rocky Mountain Division Director, Jeff Ryan K0RM, and he said he thought this had been resolved. He said he would "wade into the ocean and see what I could find". I know this hasn't been resolved. There are still a lot of people out there who don't know or haven't discovered the problem. We will keep thia alive.
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YZ: one way to smoke out all the affected homeowners is to ragchew with a full gallon (not a drip over, regulations) all day long, with a couple trucks brightly painted with "Sparky Electric, Eaton Certified Electrician" parked along the curb. they will be contacted.I would actually bet money on that one.
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Hello everyone,
It's been a long time since I've posted here. I'm just wondering if the AFCI problem has disappeared? I don't think so, it seems as though every time a new ham moves into this development they run into the same problem that I did in the beginning. What I mean by that is that when they try to get on the air they find out that they have the terrible product that Eaton unleashed into the home builders market. After they get their problem resolved they then find out that they are also tripping their neighbors breakers for several hundred feet. I know of at least 2 hams who have moved into this development within the last year that discovered the problem with the Eaton AFCI's. Eaton should have to do a total recall on these. in my opinion. Just wondering who is/are the contacts at Eaton now to deal with on this and are they still supplying the replacement breakers and paying a licensed electrician to change them out.
73'
Terry, W4TL
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I may learn more of just how bad the AFCI problem is. I have more new houses going in nearby and will soon be installing a new beam antenna with about 7db gain on 17meters. This may give my signal enough strength to trip bad breakers if they are in my beams path.
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Eaton AFCI near me
I have four neighbors with Eaton AFCIs. I run 500 watts 80-10 meters. The next door neighbor built his house five years ago and his Eatons were tripping. Three houses within 100' of me were built more recently, have Eatons, and they haven't tripped. So, maybe the newer Eatons are RF proof?
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Class action lawsuit threat might help get the recall in motion. It would have to come from an "authority" that has a legal department who can draft a "threatening" letter...
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there is a replacement program from Eaton on the AFCIs, has been for a couple years. the new line of breakers does not seem to be susceptible to RF tripping. last word, your local Eaton Certified electrician will swap the breakers with the no-RF breakers at no cost. one poster way back bought the new breakers at a supply house, brought the nuisance ones back, and was credited in full. investigate before jumping in, but Eaton has stepped up big time on this.
warning, danger, fattening.... local codes often frown on Joe Homeowner (or any electrician who has not presented his credentials at city hall) opening an entrance panel. inside are big wide busses that can provide a 10,000 amp surge if you cross them. this event is double-plus super ungood. you have been advised.
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How do you do a recall when "they all look alike when installed?"
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How do you do a recall when "they all look alike when installed?"
True, it will probably never happen. They will replace them until the end of time as necessary.
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VT, it's the model designation on the label. the good stuff has a different letter suffix than the twitchy stuff.
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Isn't the label something only an electrician doing a replacement would see?
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nope, under the handle, there is a little inked label on the body of the breaker. it lists the series, amperage, and interruptible amps per code. apparently there is also a color code per past posts on the reset button. green button, bad breaker for RF. I think the reworked units have a yellow button IIRC.
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This thread has been quiet for some time, but I am afraid to report that the problem persists...
I am a fairly newly licensed ham; I got my General license last year, in July 2019. It took me until October 2019 to setup my shack, with grounding, running coax, setting up antennae and equipment, etc. One of my first contacts on HF was last October (2019) using PSK31 on 20m. After that contact, I discovered that I had tripped 4-5 circuit breakers in my house. While I was outside resetting the breakers, my next door neighbor was out, and asked if I was having electrical issues. We found that there were also 4-5 breakers tripped at their house.
At the next meeting of my local ham radio club, I mentioned the issue, and a couple of guys started asking what type of breakers they were. One of them quickly identified them as AFCI breakers, while another located the ARRL articles, and further research lead me here...
My neighborhood of 84 homes just outside of Denver, Colorado was built in 2014, and all of the homes are equipped with Eaton service panels and AFCI breakers, obviously before they released their "fixed" model in 2015.
Following the advice of others here, I contacted Bob Handick at Eaton (Joe Fello doesn't seem to be there any longer), who has worked with me on a couple of requests to supply replacement breakers, initially for my my home and two adjacent homes, then recently for another nearby home which was affected by higher power levels (30-35w) operating ft8 on 20m.
Last weekend I heard that the 17m band was opening up, so I tried my hand with ft8 on 17m, not realizing how much more sensitive these AFCI breakers are to 17m. I made a few contacts before a couple of neighbors came by to let me know that their AFCI breakers had tripped. It turned out that at least six homes, up to about 400' feet from mine, had been affected. Several had actually called the local electric utility about outages, and the utility dispatched a truck to investigate.
Some additional info: I'm running mostly digital modes such as PSK31 and ft8 on a Yaesu FT-991A, with an MFJ-2299 telescoping dipole, mounted to a 25' telescoping fiberglass mast in a tripod, which measures an SWR of 1.2:1 to 1.5:1 across the 20m band. I have created a choke balun with 6 turns of coax in a 6" circle at the antenna feed point. The coax runs through a PolyPhaser lightning arrestor in a DXE entry panel, grounded by 4ga solid copper, bonded to four 8' ground rods spaced at 16' intervals, and bonded to the utility ground at the service panel. I have a grounding bar at the station, connected to the single point grounding panel with 1/2" tinned copper braid. I don't have any symptoms of RFI at the station.
The original breakers are Eaton BRCAF115 and BRCAF120 combination AFCI, with a manufacture date of 140730, green label with a white test button. The replacements that Eaton has sent to me were BRN115AF and BRN120AF, green label with a black test button. A sticker on the side identifies them as "Gen 5.3" with a manufacture date of 190716. These newer breakers have not tripped, even with ft8 at 100w on 20m.
Based on the information in this thread, it appears that on 17m the affected breakers can be up to 500' away from the source. My neighborhood is densely built on small lots, so there are 44 other homes within 500' of my house! Only mine and three others have been retrofitted with the updated RF-resistant AFCI breakers.
I have reached out to Bob Handick at Eaton by email again, am awaiting a reply. I have also reached out to the ARRL Lab. Mike Gruber has retired, and has been replaced by Paul Cianciolo (W1VLF), ARRL EMC Engineer. Paul has been very responsive, and has been asking many of the questions that I addressed above.
The neighborhood is controlled by an HOA, but does not prohibit radio antennae specifically. I am actually on the HOA board. A fellow board member is a master electrician, and while not a ham, holds a GMRS license, so he is sympathetic to the issue and has been very supportive.
It is apparent that there are likely still many of the older (pre-2015) breakers installed in many areas, laying in wait for an unsuspecting radio amateur to discover when moving into a new area, or trying new bands and modes.
Many thanks to all of you for sharing the information here; it has been very helpful. I'll keep this thread posted with updates as things evolve.
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I have AFCI breakers at my home and run 1500 watts into a dipole very near my home. I placed .01 uf/200v capacitors from the breaker outputs to ground. They stopped flipping off.
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That may have also defeated the arc fault interruption feature also. These breakers use RF wave forms to detect arc, bypassing all the RF to ground may remove the arc signature. Just a heads up and you mileage may vary.
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I wouldn't use 0.01uF/200V capacitors because they can fail in an unsafe manner during line transients. Y2 "safety rated" capacitors should be used.
The Vishay VY2103M63Y5US63V0 is an example. It's rated for 300 VAC line-to-GND and is 100% tested at 2600 VAC. It has UL 60384-14 approval and the Digikey price is $0.48.
CAP CER 10000PF 440VAC Y5U RDL
10000pF ±20% 440VAC Ceramic Capacitor Y5U (E) Radial, Disc
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/vishay-bc-components/VY2103M63Y5US63V0/BC2698-ND/2356836
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Before replacing more AFCI breakers, Eaton has asked that we perform a test to determine how many neighboring homes are affected by RF when transmitting. We conducted our test today… Operating my Yaesu FT-991A with ft8 on 17m with 100w tripped Eaton AFCI breakers in 26 homes nearby, not including the four that have already been upgraded with replacement breakers, so a total of 30 homes out of the 45 that are within 500’ of mine were affected. We rotated the MFJ-2299 rotatable dipole by about 30º in between transmissions, to ensure that we covered the entire area with full strength. The affected homes were within about 300’ of my antenna.
During the course of the test, calling “CQ” on ft8, I made four contacts: CA, MN, WA, and Mexico!
Next, we’ll work with Eaton on a plan to replace the AFCI breakers in the 26 homes that were impacted. They have committed to contracting with a licensed electrician to perform the replacement.
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Man, I thought that this thread wouldn't see anymore traffic, but I bet this will be ongoing for many more years. Glad Eaton is still receptive to replacing those POS's. I have Square D in my new (2.5 years) home, but had bought an Eaton sub panel with those infernal devices. They were returned to the store from where I got them and then I ordered ones that are not susceptible. No issues now.
EDIT: I see that the susceptible ones are STILL available and being sold from old stock. They should have recalled all of the product still on the shelves, but they haven't...
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Hello, I started this forum over 6 years ago in hope that it would help fellow hams realize that there is a problem with the AFCI's. The problem exists now just as it did then. Eaton was good to work with me for a solution in my situation and changed out several homes where I live. I had hoped that Eaton would have recalled all of these pieces of s_ _ _ and replace them with ones that were not susceptible to HF RF, which they have not.
Just a word of caution to hams building or buying a new home. Check the breaker box and if you find these little boogers move on to another location. They are plenty of them in place and who knows Eaton and electricians may still be installing the troublesome ones.
73
Terry, W4TL
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I am a new ham and am just getting my HF rig running. I found when transmitting on 20 meters my Eaton ACFI breakers tripped. I found that there was a history of the Eaton breakers not liking RF and contacted Eaton. They are sending me 16 new breakers. My house was built in 2014/2015 as was the 40 homes in my hoa so there probably other Eaton breakers with this problem nearby.
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call Eaton and see if they will spring for one of their certified electricians to chase this down. it could be the power company's neutral from the serving transformer is open or a crummy ground (aka weasels stole the copper.)
since the cordless phone caused a false trip, there's definitely a house issue. which is not to say there isn't something to be done with the antenna as well. start with ferrites over both sides of the coax, good grounding on the rig and radials, etc. in a dry area, ground resistance is going to be high, and the "RF grounding" will probably show radiation.
you'll get in more trouble with the insurance company putting other brands' breakers in the panel than other Eatons... if they fit properly. all elements in the panel have to be rated for use in that panel. just for grins, if you have a standard breaker circuit, might be fun to get a single-device AFCI outlet, hook it in place of a standard, and see if that trips.
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2014 post.
Guys... start a new one!
-Mike.
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I am a new ham and am just getting my HF rig running. I found when transmitting on 20 meters my Eaton ACFI breakers tripped. I found that there was a history of the Eaton breakers not liking RF and contacted Eaton. They are sending me 16 new breakers. My house was built in 2014/2015 as was the 40 homes in my hoa so there probably other Eaton breakers with this problem nearby.
Can you give me the contact information for Eaton? Thanks.
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KD0REQ,
It is not the wiring, it is not anything else related to the building or grounding or anything else. It is THE BREAKERS themselves. This is a long time known thing and it is why this thread is 53 and more pages long. The breakers in the panels of all the homes near to K8CEB will have to be changed out.
WA3SKN, we absolutely should NOT start a new thread. The history of this huge Eaton problem should stay in this thread for great documentation of the ongoing problem. One can see that in an 8 year period, there are still people (and hams) who have never heard of this problem.
K8CEB, glad you were able to get a hold of Eaton and get new/improved Eaton AFCI breakers. All your neighbors (who have the same breakers) need to also be swapped to new non-susceptible AFCI breakers.
Sorry it took me so long to see new posts in here. I usually check every coupla weeks, but I was remiss in that duty.
I know it is long, but the info is in this thread on how to get a hold of Eaton about this problem. Or, hopefully, K8CEB will chime back in soon.
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Can you give me the contact information for Eaton? Thanks.
Contact Bob Handick (412-893-3746 / RobertEHandick@Eaton.com) or Joe Fello (412-893-3745 / JosephPFello@eaton.com).
- Glenn W9IQ