Call Search
     

New to Ham Radio?
My Profile

Community
Articles
Forums
News
Reviews
Friends Remembered
Strays
Survey Question

Operating
Contesting
DX Cluster Spots
Propagation

Resources
Calendar
Classifieds
Ham Exams
Ham Links
List Archives
News Articles
Product Reviews
QSL Managers

Site Info
eHam Help (FAQ)
Support the site
The eHam Team
Advertising Info
Vision Statement
About eHam.net

donate to eham
   Home   Help Search  
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 Next   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Surge protection for a washing machine  (Read 45247 times)
WB4IVF
Member

Posts: 122




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2017, 04:44:27 AM »

Regarding Joule ratings, here’s an extract from How to Protect Your House and Its Contents from Lightning - IEEE Guide for Surge Protection of Equipment Connected to AC Power and Communication Circuits:

“Some SPDs may claim a “Joule rating” in addition to surge current and clamping voltage ratings. This can lead to some confusion. Joules (J) are a unit of energy (Joules = current x voltage x time), and the Joule rating is intended to be an indication of how energetic an electrical surge the protector can withstand without damage. If two SPDs have the same clamping voltage and are tested using the same waveform, then Joule ratings can show that one device can handle more energy (larger surges) than the other device. However, there is no simple way to compare two devices using different waveforms. There are no standardized test protocols to establish Joule ratings. Also, SPDs with similar surge current ratings may claim very different Joule ratings if they are based on two different technologies. It is usually better to compare the clamping voltage and surge current ratings using the same waveform than to rely on the relative Joule ratings.”

“Due to the difficulty in comparing Joule ratings, many companies no longer publish this number. Most standards written recently in the surge protection industry either warn of the possible misuse of Joule ratings or, by omission, do not recommend the use of Joule ratings.”

This publication contains excellent information on the effectiveness of lightning protection strategies and different types of protective devices, and clears up a lot of common misconceptions.  It can be found on several sites, including:

http://lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/ieee_guide.html

Another good resource is W8JI’s site:

https://www.w8ji.com/lightning.htm
https://www.w8ji.com/station_ground.htm

Howard
Logged
KD0REQ
Member

Posts: 2146




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2017, 05:18:52 PM »

code says all grounding inside the house must terminate at the buss in the entrance panel.  which then should ideally be grounded on opposite sides of the house.

sometimes you have to buy a new control board, I had to replace the one in my oven for no discernable good reason. if you can get a plug-in surge arrestor for your gollywog computerized appliance, do so.
Logged
KI7LGC
Member

Posts: 10




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2017, 03:25:35 PM »

I've seen surge protecting circuit breakers before. Maybe something like this would work well?
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-20-Amp-6-5-in-Whole-House-Surge-Protected-Circuit-Breaker-QSA2020SPDP/202562776
Logged
WB4SPT
Member

Posts: 684




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2017, 06:06:23 AM »

I have a 2 year old nice GE washer that got hit several months ago. We had an almost direct lightning hit at the house. It vaporized my 10 meter vertical and a few CFL light bulbs in the house and killed the board in the washer. Believe it or not my warranty would not cover the new board because it was a lightning struck. Luckley  my local parts supplier had one fo 90 bucks and I fixed it myself.
 Now I use a good Triplite Isobar and just keep it switched off when not in use and switch it on when I want to wash. Worked out good so far. The isobars are rather expensive but had some extras at work.. Good luck,  73. Jim. W5JJG

I had the same experience.   My dipole took a direct hit.  The electronic washer machine was on a dedicated triplite and survived fine.  In the load center I had a whole house surge protector.  You do NOT want to independantly ground the washer to some local ground rod; counterproductive.   To those contemplating series L elements, model these on Spice first.  I have, and you can easily generate larger than initial pulse magnitudes as the L and downstream C elements ring with very high peak values.  My professional work is 50% time spent on electronic surge protection for outside equip. 
Logged
SWMAN
Member

Posts: 1209




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2017, 09:27:54 AM »

SPT,  I just recently installed an Eaton whole house surge protector in my main panel. With you experience in this field, I hope I made the right decision. It is the unit with the 2 green lights that show that protection is on. It cost around 120 bucks from an electrical supplier.  Thanks, Jim W5JJG
Logged
WB4SPT
Member

Posts: 684




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2017, 03:23:29 PM »

SPT,  I just recently installed an Eaton whole house surge protector in my main panel. With you experience in this field, I hope I made the right decision. It is the unit with the 2 green lights that show that protection is on. It cost around 120 bucks from an electrical supplier.  Thanks, Jim W5JJG

On this topic.  don't forget to protect the garage door openers.  I had 3 failures there due to my hit.  Chamberlain makes inexpensive point of use suppressors for the openers.   It handles both the mains and the sensor wiring.  It's best too to bond the door rails/tracks to the motor unit.   Otherwise very high differential voltages can result with a hit. 
Same with flat screen TV's.  Use point of use receptacles that have built-in surge protection.
More difficult are the 240V appliances that have gone electronic;  dryers, ovens, ranges, AC units.  I haven't done anything specifically for those, other than the whole house suppressor, which is a bit far away to really be effective. 
Logged
NN4X
Member

Posts: 54




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2017, 11:38:39 AM »

You may want to look at this Leviton product: http://www.leviton.com/en/products/5380-gy

I have them on my washing machine, my garage door openers, my refrigerator, and several other outlets, including the shack.  It has surge suppression as well as RFI suppression built-in.

Logged
KE2KB
Member

Posts: 943




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2017, 11:17:09 AM »

Grounding the washer to an outside ground rod just might create a ground loop, and a better path THROUGH the washer, and its electronics, for a lightning induced surge. grounding and isolation is best done before the equipment, in my opinion.

Pete
That's good advice. I am not going to run a conductor between the washer and the antenna ground rod. So far, the NewPoint surge suppressor is working well. A bit bulky, but not an issue. The whole-house protection is something I installed several years ago when I realized that it was not possible to protect built-in appliances like the dishwasher and the oven (which is gas, but has electronic controls).
Logged
WB4SPT
Member

Posts: 684




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 07:09:16 AM »

You may want to look at this Leviton product: http://www.leviton.com/en/products/5380-gy

I have them on my washing machine, my garage door openers, my refrigerator, and several other outlets, including the shack.  It has surge suppression as well as RFI suppression built-in.



Good tip.  I didn't realize they had recepts with built-in RF filters. 
Logged
K8BYP
Member

Posts: 256




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2017, 02:09:54 PM »

 Have done engineering in this field (industrial arc and transient suppression).

As you have figured out, it is not enough to have whole-house OR "at the load" suppression.

It takes both. The whole house unit will clamp down higher voltage transients than the load suppressor. At the load suppressor, it clamps more closely to nominal line voltage. Without both installed,
there is a range of voltages that are not covered by either suppressor. There ends up being a range of line voltages from roughly 140 up to 250VAC that arent covered without using both devices.

"My thinking is that most of the surge protection devices available to the consumer are simple devices that clamp voltage at some designated level; sending over-voltage (spike) current to ground via the ground conductor."

Or up from ground..Have a Ham here who learned that the hard way. His shack and antenna layout are nicely grounded by NEC, and hes a highly experienced EE, and a transient came UP, followed his ground wire into the shack. BANG!

Load suppressors are normally across L1 and N. There is no such thing as "ground wire", since:

1. As someone else noticed, too long a distance back to the breaker panel
2. Transients can come UP from the ground on their way up to meet the down-going lightning strike.
3. Both the Neutral and "ground" conductors in the house wiring go to the same terminal, there is no electrical difference.

The concept of "ground wire" is an old thing from back when TVs and Appliances had AC line derived power supplies (aka "hot chassis") which could present a shock hazard to a User if the Neutral line opened. If it did, the entire chassis was "hot" with 110VAC from L1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIuao-yRP4s 3:00 (sorry, cant resist)

Short answer, theres no where TO send it to. Lightning does whatever it pleases. Unplug the washer and dryer when not in use.

One of the best ways to protect against high speed transients is to tie a KNOT in the conductor. Ive seen one blown apart. That raises the inductance in the wire.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 02:16:57 PM by K8BYP » Logged
WB4SPT
Member

Posts: 684




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2017, 06:26:54 AM »



One of the best ways to protect against high speed transients is to tie a KNOT in the conductor. Ive seen one blown apart. That raises the inductance in the wire.

I'm going to try that one.   But, my surge generator only goes to 5kV and 2500A. 
Logged
VA3WAO
Member

Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2018, 12:46:19 PM »

OK ... first do not ground anything to anything!

Your washer is sensitive to voltage! All these appliance manufacturers whore out production to the company that can build that board the cheapest! That being said, the sensitive chips or devices on the board are not being properly protected by proper quality design(Read cheap design in here)! And yet for a replacement board they will charge you half the cost of the appliance when it was new!

So you have a good start! You have whole home protection! Well is it good enough! Make and model would help me out a lot. I am predicting once I find out I will tell you to change it. Siemens make a good one, First Surge is the model family and it will withstand a 140kA hit! Better than this, you would now be looking at entrance level commercial TVSS's and at a price to boot!

BUT ... we don't care about current at this point, you need a surge suppression device (SPD) or a transient VOLTAGE surge suppressor (TVSS)! We need to deal with voltage here, NOT current!

My first suggestion is to get to an electrical supplier and order ... unless and I doubt he will have it on the shelf, an SPD that is at least rated at 100kA. Then make sure you have a 30A - 50A breaker that is installed at the closest position to the main breaker. Now, make sure that you have at least a #6 ground wire to the neutral (really called the identified conductor) block in the panel from the grounding system outside, I think you said 3 ground rods. All grounds in the house should be tied back to this point including your shack ground! (NEC code) Ensure the house system ground is in good shape, all ground rods and I think you mentioned 3 are in the ground at least 6" below the surface and the clamp connecting the wire to the rod is tight and the connection surfaces are clean. It should be bare ground wire as well, copper wire #6 minimum for up to 200A service

My purpose for the above? You need the best path to ground possible, if you want to add another rod or two 10 feet away from each other that would help too! Now installing the SPD, as I mentioned the breaker the closest to the main breaker in the panel, the wires should be smooth and arcing,  no tight bends and as short as possible from the TVSS to the breaker lugs! OH and make sure the two phase leads of the TVSS are exactly the same length!

Your goal in not a lightning strike but anything that comes down the utility power lines! A good quality TVSS like the Siemens First Surge line will handle everything that passes by and drain the transient to ground! You cannot protect from a near strike, that will just be the luck of the Irish and how the earth around your house handles the voltage.  There are ways to do that but I guarantee that you do not want to bank roll a lightning system. A 100kA plus TVSS will filter out a strike on the power lines say about a 1/4 mile away though, probably even closer like a couple hundred or so feet away! If you want to be extra safe, buy a GOOD quality 15 or 20A power bar that has a surge suppressor built in. APC, Tripplite or Belkin, but is should not be necessary. DO NOT ground the frame of the washer to anything! The ground is in the power cord to the washer outlet!

I am a Master Electrician, and my company works for one of Canada's largest Communications companies and I have our crews installing these things into their power systems all the time, hundreds of them over the past few years as we are updating protection. We use ones like the 140kA FirstSurge protectors at pop and amplifier sites, and have only replaced one TVSS,  we have yet to see a piece of equipment needing replacement. For Hubs and Head Ends we use commercial model of Rayvoss! Stay away from Schneider Surgelogic right now, they protect but the modules keep blowing meaning you have to keep replacing the device.

OH P.S. as for current, it is extremely Momentary so it rise and dissipates instantly, so is of not much worry, the devices have such right ratings to certify for rupture capacity mainly and momentarily they could drain extreme amperage but we really don't worry about that.

Thanks

My 2¢ take it for what it is worth!

Randall  VA3WAO
Logged
WB4SPT
Member

Posts: 684




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2018, 01:50:57 PM »

Randall;    Just met some of your Canadian electrician buddies over in Newfoundland a couple of months ago.   We were all working a substation job for Siemens out at Avalon.  Lots of fun working with 235kV.   Grin  Talk about grounding and bonding.   I was so impressed, I took pictures. 
Logged
AD4U
Member

Posts: 2504




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2018, 06:05:58 AM »

I had a similar situation 4-5 years ago. IMO you cannot be 100% sure that you can not be damaged by lightning and / or surges. Some will disagree with me. So be it.

First of all I live in the middle of a 700 acre farm with a 14KV line feeding just my home. My house is the only structure on this line and I am at the end of the line. This 14KV line is over one mile long. Some of the power line goes through an open field, just begging for lightning to strike.

After installing whole house surge units on the meter base (supplied and installed by the local electric utility company) and after installing expensive surge units on sensitive in the house, I still was having problems.

After 5-6 expensive problems (each in the $5000 range) over 5-6 summers, my home own insurance company told me, "one more problem and we will cancel your insurance".

I am an EE but I could not figure what else to do. One day I ran into the local electric utility supervisor and I explained my problem. He said he would send a crew to check out their line.

Trying to explain a long process in a few words, this is what they found ON THEIR END.

Several poles in a line (about 8-9) along the mile long 14KV line that feeds my house were  replaced 7-8 years ago after a ice storm. This was done by a contract crew from an other state who was only interested in getting power restored and going home. None of the poles that were replaced had ground wires running from the top of the pole down into the ground.

Also the poles that were replaced had no lightning arrestors and the hardware on the poles was not bonded etc.

Then the local electric utility checked the grounding at my meter base. The soils here is sandy down to 4-6 feet where it turns to clay. My meter base has the typical single 8 foot ground rod. The grounding at my meter base was several hundred ohms.

The local electric utility also found several other problems on their "end" that I will not get into here.

They bonded all the hardware in the 8-9 poles that were replaced and they checked the bonding and the grounding on all the poles on the line.

They installed a #4 wire ground from the top of all of the poles that had no ground. They drove copper ground rods down from bottom of the poles down to 40 feet deep. They also checked the ground conductivity at each pole on the line and repaired any that were out of spec.

They installed 4 additional ground rods some 16 feet long and around 6 feet apart near my meter base and cadwelded them together. Now the ground resistance at my meter base in less than 7 ohms instead of several hundred ohms. Every spring I add some Epson Salts to the soil around the ground rods to keep soil conductivity low.

Finally they installed a lightning arrestor on EVERY pole from the highway all the way to my house. They told me that a functioning lightning arrestor will dissipate a direct lightning strike within 3 pole spans. I won't check that fact.

All this work was done 5-6 years ago and I have not had a single lightning or surge issue since.

Your results may vary.

Dick AD4U

Logged
SWMAN
Member

Posts: 1209




Ignore
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2018, 07:37:39 AM »

 Dick,
 That is great that they did that for you. I just wonder though how many Electric providers would go that extra mile and do all of the things that they did for you. Here in Dallas I don't think that Oncore would do all that for a single customer. I may be wrong but I really don't think so. I must say, job well done by them.
Logged
Pages: Prev 1 [2] 3 4 Next   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.11 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!