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Author Topic: Antenna Approval Questions  (Read 4574 times)
N3HEE
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Posts: 453


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« on: August 29, 2017, 09:53:16 AM »

Will be moving into new house in retirement within the next 5 years.  HOA, Architectural Control Committee and Restrictive Covenants apply.  Covenants don't specifically mention antennas however they do say that all "improvements" must be approved by the ACC.  The covenants define antennas as improvements.  The Architectural Control Document specifically addresses antennas.  See below. 

Architectural Control Document

4.12. Attachments; Satellite Dishes and Antennae.
No permanent attachment of any kind or character whatsoever (including, but not limited to, television and radio antennae, solar energy-related systems, satellite or microwave dishes or similar improvements) shall be attached to the roof or exterior walls of any building on any Lot or otherwise placed or maintained on any Lot, unless such attachments or devices are approved in advance in writing by the ACC. One satellite or microwave dish, (1) dish or disc not exceeding (1) meter in diameter or diagonal measurement for receiving direct broadcast satellite service ("DBS") or multi-point distribution services ("MDS") may be erected and maintained on each Lot. No roof-mounted antenna, dishes, or discs shall be permitted on any Lot if adequate broadcast reception can be obtained without mounting such equipment on the roof of the house. If such roof-mounted equipment is required, no antenna or related structures may be mounted on masts exceeding twelve (12) feet in height above the highest roof line ridge of the house. Any dish, disc, or antenna (with associated mast) shall be reasonably camouflaged and screened from the view from the Lake, the Roadways, and shall not be located in the areas between the street right-of-way line and the minimum building setback lines applicable to the Lot. The location and screening of the satellite or microwave dish (which, as stated, shall be one (1) meter or less in diameter) must be approved in writing by the ACC prior to installation (see Schedule N).

My interpretation is that radio antennas are not expressly prohibited.  This is a good thing?  There is an approval process that may allow them if they are installed in a manner that complies with above regulation. 

I own a one acre heavily wooded lot with very tall pine trees.  I plan to hang a few wire dipoles high up in the trees.  They will be nearly invisible from the street or anywhere else.  Not really wanting to hide my hobby from the neighbors and avoid answering questions as to why I am putting wires in my trees

What are my chances of getting this approved?

Should I even bring it to the ACC ?

Anyone in a similar situation ? 

Thanks,

Joe

N3HEE
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Joe
N3HEE
CW Academy Advisor (Level II)
AC2RY
Member

Posts: 310




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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 10:19:19 AM »

Will be moving into new house in retirement within the next 5 years.  HOA, Architectural Control Committee and Restrictive Covenants apply.  Covenants don't specifically mention antennas however they do say that all "improvements" must be approved by the ACC.  The covenants define antennas as improvements.  The Architectural Control Document specifically addresses antennas.  See below.  

Architectural Control Document

4.12. Attachments; Satellite Dishes and Antennae.
No permanent attachment of any kind or character whatsoever (including, but not limited to, television and radio antennae, solar energy-related systems, satellite or microwave dishes or similar improvements) shall be attached to the roof or exterior walls of any building on any Lot or otherwise placed or maintained on any Lot, unless such attachments or devices are approved in advance in writing by the ACC. One satellite or microwave dish, (1) dish or disc not exceeding (1) meter in diameter or diagonal measurement for receiving direct broadcast satellite service ("DBS") or multi-point distribution services ("MDS") may be erected and maintained on each Lot. No roof-mounted antenna, dishes, or discs shall be permitted on any Lot if adequate broadcast reception can be obtained without mounting such equipment on the roof of the house. If such roof-mounted equipment is required, no antenna or related structures may be mounted on masts exceeding twelve (12) feet in height above the highest roof line ridge of the house. Any dish, disc, or antenna (with associated mast) shall be reasonably camouflaged and screened from the view from the Lake, the Roadways, and shall not be located in the areas between the street right-of-way line and the minimum building setback lines applicable to the Lot. The location and screening of the satellite or microwave dish (which, as stated, shall be one (1) meter or less in diameter) must be approved in writing by the ACC prior to installation (see Schedule N).

My interpretation is that radio antennas are not expressly prohibited.  This is a good thing?  There is an approval process that may allow them if they are installed in a manner that complies with above regulation.  

I own a one acre heavily wooded lot with very tall pine trees.  I plan to hang a few wire dipoles high up in the trees.  They will be nearly invisible from the street or anywhere else.  Not really wanting to hide my hobby from the neighbors and avoid answering questions as to why I am putting wires in my trees

What are my chances of getting this approved?

Should I even bring it to the ACC ?

Anyone in a similar situation ?  

Thanks,

Joe

N3HEE

They probably will not let you erect tower with beam there. If there is wooded area, where you can install wire dipoles not visible from neighbors, you may not even need any approval at all. Or you can go to ACC and ask for permission to install elevated GP type antenna, like ZeroFive makes. In this case you probably need paint it to match the environment. Having wooded acre you have a lot of options of almost completely stealth antenna installation. It may not be best possible antenna, but it will work most of the time for local and DX connections. I suggest to route feed line and any control connections from shack to antenna underground to avoid unnecessary attention.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:21:38 AM by AC2RY » Logged
AA4PB
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Posts: 14360




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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 10:26:49 AM »

"My interpretation is that radio antennas are not expressly prohibited"

It seems to me that 4.12 indicates that any antenna anywhere on the lot must be approved in advance by the ACC. If you put one up without approval and just one person spots and reports it then you will be at a disadvantage for getting anything approved by the ACC because you have already violated their rules.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
N3HEE
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Posts: 453


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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 10:51:23 AM »

I agree they will most likely not approve a tower and yagi.  I'm not interested in that anyway.  I'm all wires now and they work very well.  I also agree that if I just put up a wire and someone complains I may be worse off.   I get a sense that they will approve a reasonable request ?
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Joe
N3HEE
CW Academy Advisor (Level II)
N4MQ
Member

Posts: 146




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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 01:56:18 PM »

They may become more restrictive and with 5 years of runway, Id consider finding a location to avoid the pinheads altogether.  Why go toward the know-nots if you can avoid them? 

I had some neighbors try to give me grief about adding my 6 car garage, I dispatched them with "I have a county / state permit and you can leave now".  Now I carry and do not fear trespassers.  Some drive by to look at my antenna masts and the 12 foot diameter magnetic loop but we have had no further issues, it seems to interest them.

Plan ahead!  Enjoy, Woody
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AF7ON
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Posts: 55




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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 02:01:43 PM »

I have a similar problem with HOA restrictions and have managed to get away with substituting a 6-meter beam for a TV antenna (within the permitted size and height restrictions!) and using portable antennas.

I use push-up fiberglass masts with wire antennas that are all of a temporary nature.  I view this the same as my amateur astronomy hobby.  I deploy my telescope and mount for evening and night use, and take them in after use.  My antennas are likewise portable and temporary.  I do not think the HOA restrictions apply to any non-permanent structure.  You might use the same argument for any wire antennas deployed in trees - they aren't "permanent" or "attached' or even "erected".

If in doubt, you could ask.

Mike
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K6AER
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Posts: 4686




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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 07:56:53 AM »

I grew up in California where all this BS started. Avoid any HOA. You are just a change of directors away from a total antenna ban.

As a result I only buy homes in the country.
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N4UE
Member

Posts: 711




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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 09:11:28 AM »

Mike +100.
Many, many times I have described what happed to me.

I built a big, beautiful home and a detached 2 story garage in a non-HOA neighborhood. Had the written approval from the County Building Inspector for my 2 towers. Not huge, 70 footers.

A group of rich old farts got together and sued me. They lost in court. It still cost me my dream home/shop/shack.

As I'd advised:

ANYONE can sue ANYONE for ANYTHING

How much $ can you afford to lose?

Sad but true.

ron
N4UE
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N4MQ
Member

Posts: 146




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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 11:35:52 AM »

Correct Ron, the only consistancy is change.  Plan ahead. WOODY
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WV4L
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Posts: 225


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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 12:58:54 PM »

Mike +100.
Many, many times I have described what happed to me.

I built a big, beautiful home and a detached 2 story garage in a non-HOA neighborhood. Had the written approval from the County Building Inspector for my 2 towers. Not huge, 70 footers.

A group of rich old farts got together and sued me. They lost in court. It still cost me my dream home/shop/shack.

As I'd advised:

ANYONE can sue ANYONE for ANYTHING

How much $ can you afford to lose?

Sad but true.

ron
N4UE

Could you have also included a counter suit that would have made the plaintiff's pay your legal fees and court costs if they lost? I have seen even those with deep pockets back off when facing this.
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K4FMH
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Posts: 431




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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2017, 09:56:48 AM »

A couple of comments from an HOA resident who has stayed for a month or two in a Holiday In Express with real estate lawyers...

A. I agree that antennas are not expressly prohibited from your CC&R excerpt. They are permitted upon HOA approval but the authority of the HOA does not supersede federal law. Here's what I interpret given this prefatory remark.

B. OTARD guarantees that you can receive over the air broadcast transmissions as defined in that code. A small satellite dish or a conventional yagi et al for TV cannot be banned but can be specified as to location as long as your reception is not impeded.

For instance, you must be able to get adequate signal strength from the satellites so the HOA can't specify that the dish be hidden in a doghouse or in such a way as to prevent adequate OTA reception. The same would apply to a traditional TV antenna but only for reception of your TV market's usual and customary reception (i.e., no stacked yagi's on a tower for skip reception).

It is unclear as to how a court might interpret usual and customary OTA radio reception (AM/FM). For instance, a small receive loop that covers the AM broadcast band fits the narrative of OTARD. But I know of no case where it's been tested in court. (I have one on a small rotator fitted to a steel pipe one foot off the ground. I planted two tall evergreen trees in front of it and wound matching dark green plastic tape around the loop to match the trees. I did not ask permission from the HOA and will claim OTARD exemption should it be challenged. It's been there for over a year without any mention.)

C. With the current law (e.g., ARPA is just a Bill), getting HOA approval for wire antennas or even a small mast mounted Yagi amongst trees would be greatly enhanced by actual pictures in your application showing them exactly what this "antenna" would look like in the setting it would be installed. For instance, you could go ahead and install pulleys in the trees and pull up the desired antenna (oromething very similar even if it's just wire) to take your pictures from the street or other publicly visible areas. Let down the antenna and submit your application. In addition, for VHF/UHF, I use a Ventenna with great success. Even the plumber who installed it has asked me which vent pipe is the antenna? I wouldn't tell him.

D. Be prepared, with pictures and estimated dates, to illustrate various other "variances" by neighbors regarding the CC&Rs whether the HOA approved them or not. Any ugly yard art? Different driveways than specified in the CC&Rs? Fences? Sports team paraphernalia permanent installed? Do not present these items in your application! Just have them ready if you get asked to meet and discuss OR get a denial. In the latter case, you can tactfully ask them to reconsider in light of this affidavit.

None of these ideas may benefit you but they are sugar rather than vinegar. Good luck! I'm using attic antennas except for the modest outdoor receive loop for my home shack. I do operate next door in a public park with an HF station in a Gator case. Lemonade out of lemons.

Will be moving into new house in retirement within the next 5 years.  HOA, Architectural Control Committee and Restrictive Covenants apply.  Covenants don't specifically mention antennas however they do say that all "improvements" must be approved by the ACC.  The covenants define antennas as improvements.  The Architectural Control Document specifically addresses antennas.  See below. 

Architectural Control Document

4.12. Attachments; Satellite Dishes and Antennae.
No permanent attachment of any kind or character whatsoever (including, but not limited to, television and radio antennae, solar energy-related systems, satellite or microwave dishes or similar improvements) shall be attached to the roof or exterior walls of any building on any Lot or otherwise placed or maintained on any Lot, unless such attachments or devices are approved in advance in writing by the ACC. One satellite or microwave dish, (1) dish or disc not exceeding (1) meter in diameter or diagonal measurement for receiving direct broadcast satellite service ("DBS") or multi-point distribution services ("MDS") may be erected and maintained on each Lot. No roof-mounted antenna, dishes, or discs shall be permitted on any Lot if adequate broadcast reception can be obtained without mounting such equipment on the roof of the house. If such roof-mounted equipment is required, no antenna or related structures may be mounted on masts exceeding twelve (12) feet in height above the highest roof line ridge of the house. Any dish, disc, or antenna (with associated mast) shall be reasonably camouflaged and screened from the view from the Lake, the Roadways, and shall not be located in the areas between the street right-of-way line and the minimum building setback lines applicable to the Lot. The location and screening of the satellite or microwave dish (which, as stated, shall be one (1) meter or less in diameter) must be approved in writing by the ACC prior to installation (see Schedule N).

My interpretation is that radio antennas are not expressly prohibited.  This is a good thing?  There is an approval process that may allow them if they are installed in a manner that complies with above regulation. 

I own a one acre heavily wooded lot with very tall pine trees.  I plan to hang a few wire dipoles high up in the trees.  They will be nearly invisible from the street or anywhere else.  Not really wanting to hide my hobby from the neighbors and avoid answering questions as to why I am putting wires in my trees

What are my chances of getting this approved?

Should I even bring it to the ACC ?

Anyone in a similar situation ? 

Thanks,

Joe

N3HEE
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K3LI
Member

Posts: 49




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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 08:19:08 PM »

4.12. Attachments; Satellite Dishes and Antennae.
No permanent attachment of any kind or character whatsoever (including, but not limited to, television and radio antennae, solar energy-related systems, satellite or microwave dishes or similar improvements) shall be attached to the roof or exterior walls of any building on any Lot or otherwise placed or maintained on any Lot, unless such attachments or devices are approved in advance in writing by the ACC. One satellite or microwave dish, (1) dish or disc not exceeding (1) meter in diameter or diagonal measurement for receiving direct broadcast satellite service ("DBS") or multi-point distribution services ("MDS") may be erected and maintained on each Lot. No roof-mounted antenna, dishes, or discs shall be permitted on any Lot if adequate broadcast reception can be obtained without mounting such equipment on the roof of the house. If such roof-mounted equipment is required, no antenna or related structures may be mounted on masts exceeding twelve (12) feet in height above the highest roof line ridge of the house. Any dish, disc, or antenna (with associated mast) shall be reasonably camouflaged and screened from the view from the Lake, the Roadways, and shall not be located in the areas between the street right-of-way line and the minimum building setback lines applicable to the Lot. The location and screening of the satellite or microwave dish (which, as stated, shall be one (1) meter or less in diameter) must be approved in writing by the ACC prior to installation (see Schedule N).


Federal Law allows the installation of communication receiving dishes to be installed under FCC rules.  The dish may be 1.3meters in diameter and must be allowed to be place in an area that allows for the best signal reception, regardless of where that dish would need mounting.

Ran across this at my sons QTH and had the HOA slapped down by the lawyers form hell.

Lets look at the violations contained in your rule:

1: Must be reasonably screened, cant be mounted above the roofline of the house.  Must be cammoed.  FCC req allow a 1.3 meter disk for reception.  That antenna may legally be place where it gets the best
reception. (ran across this at my son home. Had my Lawyer send the HOA a letter along with a copy of the public law governing such.  I also obtained a letter from the FCC.)

Moronic HOA went away.   The HOA regulation also states that no towers or other antenna devises attached to the home.  I read that particular paragraph with great interest.  This hoa had been giving my son grief for his "dish network" antenna and a singe 40m-10 dipole in the tees.  After several negotiation with moronic govt official. I really go mad.

My son now has his sat dish in the optimum spot for signal reception, a 30ft tower with hexbeam. 50 ft tower with a 40-20-10 tribander.

HOA with bonkers.  I pointed out the "rule" in their Governing Documents (CC&Rs) that clearly and unequivocally states: Antennas my not be mounted on any pole, tower, or structure attached to the home.  Well, his 2 towers holding a hex beam, tribander, 3 dipoles are free standing in his yard.  HoA lawyer informed HOA they had no leg to stand on and must allow the towers to stand.  He also correct the HOA as to what Federal law regarding the size of sat antennas.

Hoa has since rewritten rules regarding tower placements.  (allowing one single dipole appropriately in the trees.)   Friends towers are up to this day with no problems.l

So before you cry HOA wont let me have a antenna, carefully read your restrictions.

HOA exploded.  I simply pointed out the
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:25:33 PM by K3LI » Logged
W2AI
Member

Posts: 1




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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 10:55:14 AM »

Will be moving into new house in retirement within the next 5 years.  HOA, Architectural Control Committee and Restrictive Covenants apply.  Covenants don't specifically mention antennas however they do say that all "improvements" must be approved by the ACC.  The covenants define antennas as improvements.  The Architectural Control Document specifically addresses antennas.  See below. 

Architectural Control Document

4.12. Attachments; Satellite Dishes and Antennae.
No permanent attachment of any kind or character whatsoever (including, but not limited to, television and radio antennae, solar energy-related systems, satellite or microwave dishes or similar improvements) shall be attached to the roof or exterior walls of any building on any Lot or otherwise placed or maintained on any Lot, unless such attachments or devices are approved in advance in writing by the ACC. One satellite or microwave dish, (1) dish or disc not exceeding (1) meter in diameter or diagonal measurement for receiving direct broadcast satellite service ("DBS") or multi-point distribution services ("MDS") may be erected and maintained on each Lot. No roof-mounted antenna, dishes, or discs shall be permitted on any Lot if adequate broadcast reception can be obtained without mounting such equipment on the roof of the house. If such roof-mounted equipment is required, no antenna or related structures may be mounted on masts exceeding twelve (12) feet in height above the highest roof line ridge of the house. Any dish, disc, or antenna (with associated mast) shall be reasonably camouflaged and screened from the view from the Lake, the Roadways, and shall not be located in the areas between the street right-of-way line and the minimum building setback lines applicable to the Lot. The location and screening of the satellite or microwave dish (which, as stated, shall be one (1) meter or less in diameter) must be approved in writing by the ACC prior to installation (see Schedule N).

My interpretation is that radio antennas are not expressly prohibited.  This is a good thing?  There is an approval process that may allow them if they are installed in a manner that complies with above regulation. 

I own a one acre heavily wooded lot with very tall pine trees.  I plan to hang a few wire dipoles high up in the trees.  They will be nearly invisible from the street or anywhere else.  Not really wanting to hide my hobby from the neighbors and avoid answering questions as to why I am putting wires in my trees

What are my chances of getting this approved?

Should I even bring it to the ACC ?

Anyone in a similar situation ? 

Thanks,

Joe

N3HEE

It's truly sad that you own property and others[ i.e. HOA Board] can dictate to you what you can or can not do on it.
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ONAIR
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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 08:22:42 PM »

I don't think that most HOAs will approve anything that can be readily seen.   Towers and beams are out, although you might get approved for a "flagpole" antenna, an antenna that is disguised as a tree, or a wire antenna that is hardly visible.
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W8LV
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Posts: 125


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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 11:40:45 PM »

HOA's should be seen and not heard....
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