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Author Topic: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000  (Read 12749 times)
W6RZ
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Posts: 162




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« Reply #75 on: November 20, 2017, 03:57:35 AM »

I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place.

RMDR (Reciprocal Mixing Dynamic Range) is a phase noise test, not a mixer test. It fully applies to SDR architectures and compares to analog architectures on an apples to apples basis. Direct sampling usually does pretty well on RMDR, since it's only a function of the cleanliness of the ADC and DDS clocks and not multiple analog oscillators. Note that the Sherwood table is ranked on third order IMD dynamic range, not RMDR.

Digital signals are derived using a quadrature sampling detector that samples and quantizes the incoming signal, the I and Q bit streams are derived from the samples, there is no heterodyne mixing taking place.

There is no quadrature sampling detector in a direct sampling architecture. That's used in the direct conversion architecture. In direct sampling, a single ADC converts from RF to digital samples and then a DDC (Digital Down Converter) converts to I and Q. A DDC is essentially a digital mixer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_down_converter

In the IC-7300 direct sampling architecture, they're using the usual DDC (the first two mixers, 90 degree phase shifter and DDS) and then they get a little creative with an image reject mixer to convert complex (IQ) samples back to real samples for their legacy TI DSP chip.

In the FPGA, the mixers are implemented with multipliers. But all mixers, even analog ones are multipliers. That's why the schematic symbol for all mixers is a circle with an X inside of it (like 9 X 7 = 63).

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N2RJ
Member

Posts: 2016




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« Reply #76 on: November 20, 2017, 09:26:10 AM »


I never understood why Icom made the IC-7700. It was not much better than the 7600 in performance and the 7700 lacks Dual Watch or a second RX, a huge mistake for Icom. Who wants a high dollar $6000 radio without 2RX or Dual Watch? No One??

Yes the cheaper 7600 does have Dual Watch..

Stan K9IUQ

K3LR used a bunch of them before switching them out for 7851s.

I guess they are good for a SO2R configuration where you need the performance but do not need the dual watch.
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 819




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« Reply #77 on: November 20, 2017, 09:37:53 AM »

I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place.

RMDR (Reciprocal Mixing Dynamic Range) is a phase noise test, not a mixer test. It fully applies to SDR architectures and compares to analog architectures on an apples to apples basis. Direct sampling usually does pretty well on RMDR, since it's only a function of the cleanliness of the ADC and DDS clocks and not multiple analog oscillators. Note that the Sherwood table is ranked on third order IMD dynamic range, not RMDR.

Digital signals are derived using a quadrature sampling detector that samples and quantizes the incoming signal, the I and Q bit streams are derived from the samples, there is no heterodyne mixing taking place.

There is no quadrature sampling detector in a direct sampling architecture. That's used in the direct conversion architecture. In direct sampling, a single ADC converts from RF to digital samples and then a DDC (Digital Down Converter) converts to I and Q. A DDC is essentially a digital mixer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_down_converter

In the IC-7300 direct sampling architecture, they're using the usual DDC (the first two mixers, 90 degree phase shifter and DDS) and then they get a little creative with an image reject mixer to convert complex (IQ) samples back to real samples for their legacy TI DSP chip.

In the FPGA, the mixers are implemented with multipliers. But all mixers, even analog ones are multipliers. That's why the schematic symbol for all mixers is a circle with an X inside of it (like 9 X 7 = 63).



I was talking about the older Flex radios that did direct conversion to baseband for audio processing.  And you are right, Icom does alias the I/Q to 36KHZ for the DSP but it works.  I think they came up with a very creative architecture.  And please keep in mind that it has been a long time since I was involved in radio design.  Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.
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N2RJ
Member

Posts: 2016




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« Reply #78 on: November 20, 2017, 09:54:47 AM »

Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.
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N2WQ
Member

Posts: 100




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« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2017, 03:32:39 PM »

Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.

You may want to take the time to read http://www.ab4oj.com/sdr/sdrtest2.pdf
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 819




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« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2017, 08:40:23 AM »

What I find interesting, from a marketing perspective, is the IC-7610 is set to replace the (currently) $2,000 IC-7600.  At $4,000 (or $3,900), that is twice the price of the radio it's replacing (and it is clearly being marketed as a direct replacement; hence, no new series number).

Has this ever happened before?--where a replacement is double the price of the existing model?

73 de WX0V

First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.

 but lets take a look at the last few years.  How much was the IC-756 PRO III selling for when the $3900.00 IC-7600 replaced it?  How much was the FTDX-1000 Mark V Field selling for when the $3300.00 FTdx-3000 replaced it?   And how about the TS-570D that was selling for $850.00 when it was replaced by the TS-590S for $1800.00

It is interesting to note that in every one of the above, the cost differential was right around a thousand dollars.  Did you post a similar complaing regarding Kenwood or Yaesu?  What was the cost differential when Flex radio replaced the Flex 5000 with the 6000 series?  Wasn't it more than a thousand dollars?  How about when Elecraft brought out the K3?  Now that was an expensive jump from a K2.  Did you post a similar complaint?  I think not.  

What makes this situation any different?  All companies are in business to make a profit, especially publically traded ones.  The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.  You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 08:53:56 AM by KA4DPO » Logged
K9IUQ
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Posts: 2801




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« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2017, 09:14:55 AM »

First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.
 

What makes this situation any different?  All companies are in business to make a profit, especially publically traded ones.  The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.  You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.

Actually you can get a Ic-7600 for a little less than $2000. HRO price right now is $1949.... Also you can buy a Icom 7100 for $739 with free Heil mic and cable. I bought a 7100 several years and paid $1500 and sold it a few years later for $1000.

Old models (old models of ANYTHING) on the way out are always going to be much cheaper than new models fresh to the market. I really do not understand why some hams seem so agitated about it. It is nothing new.

Of course much of the whining is Crybaby Flex Lovers (and Closet Flex Lovers) trying to take Icom into the mud since the Flexradio new Models are no where to be seen even tho they were promised in October. I believe they worry that maybe some Hams sitting on the fence about the new Ugly Knob Flexradio models may contemplate buying the 7600.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 09:19:54 AM by K9IUQ » Logged
K0UA
Member

Posts: 1465




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« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2017, 09:29:50 AM »

I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one Smiley

I have Rugers, Smith and Wesson, Winchesters, Remingtons, Mossberg, Kahr, Sig, Glock.  Does that make me bad?  Or just not "brand crazy"?  You decide. 
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W6UV
Member

Posts: 828




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« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2017, 10:07:00 AM »

Of course much of the whining is Crybaby Flex Lovers (and Closet Flex Lovers) trying to take Icom into the mud since the Flexradio new Models are no where to be seen even tho they were promised in October. I believe they worry that maybe some Hams sitting on the fence about the new Ugly Knob Flexradio models may contemplate buying the 7600.

To each his own. Some guys like Icom, others are die-hard Yaesu fans, and others like Flex. For my tastes, the recent stuff to come out of Japan, Inc. has been ultimately boring. Just rehashes of the same old, same old stuff. It may be a little different under the hood than the last model, but not by much, even years after the previous model hit the market. I want to see some real innovation and the conservative Japanese are not likely to provide it.
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 819




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« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2017, 10:21:03 AM »

I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one Smiley

I have Rugers, Smith and Wesson, Winchesters, Remingtons, Mossberg, Kahr, Sig, Glock.  Does that make me bad?  Or just not "brand crazy"?  You decide. 

Well, at least you own a Sig and a Ruger. Grin
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K0YQ
Member

Posts: 1295




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« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2017, 10:36:29 AM »

I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one Smiley


Why on earth would anyone drive anything other than Toyota?   Grin

Joking aside I agree with you.  I like seeing different manufacturers push the state of the art envelope.
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WX0V
Member

Posts: 46




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« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2017, 10:57:43 AM »

All ">" by KA4DPO

>First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.


As K9IUQ pointed out, the IC-7600 is actually priced below $2,000 at multiple locations.  However, DX Engineering and Universal show them as no longer available.


>Did you post a similar complaing [SIC] regarding Kenwood or Yaesu?


My original post that you quoted was not a complaint.  I was questioning the pricing strategy of the radio; would a direct replacement that was double the price of the existing model be successful?

Also, by many accounts, buyers were expecting a $3,500 (or even less) price tag, and it increased by $400.  How would they react to that?  I was disappointed...that $400 would go for accessories; like a monitor for the crappy 800 x 480 output.  Grin

As to Elecraft, Kenwood or Yaesu, although they are fine brands (as are Flex, and others), I am not interested in them.  I am interested in Icom.  So no, I did not post about them.


>The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always
>cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.


Yes, but can you cite an example where a direct replacement automobile was double the price of the discounted existing model?  If a 2017 Chevrolet Impala was say, $25K, would a theoretical 2018 model, with 10mpg better fuel economy and 100 more hp, sell as well as the previous model at $45K, or do buyers pass?


>You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.

 
Absolutely!  I cannot agree with you more.  I have made my choice and am waiting for delivery of the IC-7610 (note; I pre-ordered mine in December 2016, so it's rather difficult to call me an Icom hater).  Did you also order one?

Good discussion...73! de WX0V

P.S.  I own Glock and Smith & Wesson...Gibson and Fender...but Coke, not Pepsi... Grin
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K9IUQ
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Posts: 2801




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« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2017, 12:12:15 PM »

To each his own. Some guys like Icom, others are die-hard Yaesu fans, and others like Flex.

Jerry, I like em all, Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom. I even got a TYT DMR radio. I will not publicly admit about that Baofeng in the drawer..  Cheesy

Well maybe I do not Flexradios but I have good reasons to not like them.   Wink
It is not the radios I dislike, it is the Owners and Company's Attitude I dislike.

Stan K9IUQ
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N2RJ
Member

Posts: 2016




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« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2017, 12:18:48 PM »

Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.

You may want to take the time to read http://www.ab4oj.com/sdr/sdrtest2.pdf

I've seen that a billion times. What is your point?
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W6UV
Member

Posts: 828




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« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2017, 01:12:31 PM »

It is not the radios I dislike, it is the Owners and Company's Attitude I dislike.

Yep. I own a Flex-6500 and like it, but don't like many of the practices of he company behind it.
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