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Author Topic: QRP Frequencies -- What's the solution?  (Read 4559 times)
VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2017, 06:28:19 AM »

Is my BP high or low? No, it's just fine  Smiley
But yes, get some of the extra fat off...
Some better air... perhaps less QRM...
I did in fact recently finish building QCX, 3W off 12V
So yes do plan to get out with it, ideally still need to put it in a casing or box, and make an EFHW for use on the squid pole, rather than my squid mobile antenna.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
VK4FFAB
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Posts: 424




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« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2017, 05:44:44 PM »

I did in fact recently finish building QCX, 3W off 12V
So yes do plan to get out with it, ideally still need to put it in a casing or box, and make an EFHW for use on the squid pole, rather than my squid mobile antenna.

That QRP-LABS rig has been selling well, 1500 units in not a very long time. I have had my eye on it for sometime, but it will have to wait till the new year when I upgrade so i can use it. Have you had it on the air yet? What's the receiver like and what do you think of the rig over all? Oh and what band did you build it for?
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VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2017, 02:11:04 AM »

That QRP-LABS rig has been selling well, 1500 units in not a very long time. I have had my eye on it for sometime, but it will have to wait till the new year when I upgrade so i can use it. Have you had it on the air yet? What's the receiver like and what do you think of the rig over all? Oh and what band did you build it for?
There are some youtube videos don't take my word for it, but amazing RX as sensitive as the big rig, 200 Hz filter is better, no ringing, the volume is fine even without AGC, I followed all instructions carefully, if you are an experienced constructed don't be tempted to not follow the step by step instructions and double check everything, note that coils L1 to L4 may likely require one or more less turns to achieve the right inductance and thus power output, and DO check the website for all the mods as most of them I really recommend as they are easy and can prevent potential problems. It's for 30m. I worked EU, NA, AS on CW 3W, and with WSPR NA, EU short and long path, no problems at all. Amazing value indeed. Over 2,000 sold thus far.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
WB0CJB
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Posts: 131




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« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2017, 06:01:38 AM »

No one owns a frequency. If the frequency is busy why can't a person just move down a couple of kHz? But then they will get yelled at because they're interfering with an old fart group that has been using a certain freq for twenty plus years at the same time every day. You possibly can't have that much to yak about every stinking day.

With today's radios they are loaded with every filter imaginable and no one is willing to adjust them. Once a person gets his radio set just right it takes an act of Congress to get them to change.
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K3STX
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Posts: 1589




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« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2017, 12:19:49 PM »

No one owns a frequency. If the frequency is busy why can't a person just move down a couple of kHz? But then they will get yelled at because they're interfering with an old fart group that has been using a certain freq for twenty plus years at the same time every day. You possibly can't have that much to yak about every stinking day.

With today's radios they are loaded with every filter imaginable and no one is willing to adjust them. Once a person gets his radio set just right it takes an act of Congress to get them to change.

Just wait...

3

2

1
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VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2017, 05:04:48 PM »

The subject as K3STX ShiT stirrer extraorinaire, knows very well, is about QRP frequencies as per the IARU band plan. It has been explained that anyone who has a general class license or above surely, and I imagine technician too, know the relationship between power and dB, and about SNR.

I explained this in an earlier post for the benefit of STX and questioning how he got a license without knowing this, came to the conclusion he knows it well, but is pretending to be ignorant and thus IS being silly.

I will not repeat the obvious, wind back in the posts and find the bit about why QRP need a safe area especially for QRP to QRP DX contacts, and why two QRP stations often can hear each other but a QRO station cannot hear one or both QRP, and the reasons why that is, while the reverse is not true: the deaf QRO (K3STX) willl be heard by one or both QRP and thus their QSO is destroyed, without K3STX hearing that, and more to the point, not even caring about it (as made clear in his posts above).

There is your 3, 2, 1 Mr Shit STirrer eXtraordinaire  Smiley
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
K3STX
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Posts: 1589




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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2017, 05:22:31 PM »

Why single out me? In this thread alone in my mind WB0CJB, W1VT, K8AXW, K0UA, K5LXP, and ZENKI all seem to reject the idea of "reserved" frequencies. Maybe I misunderstood what they wrote.

I understand what you are saying; I am not stupid. You are having a QSO with 100 mW and I can't hear your QSO. And I blow you away with my 1 KW and ruin your QSO. And it would not be because I do not care, it is because I don't hear you. I understand your point. QRP is all about the challenge, isn't this part of the challenge of QRP? I know you will not agree, but frankly when my QSO is obliterated by somebody transmitting right on top of me (whether they ask QRL? or not) I just say "shucks" and turn off my rig.

paul

And isn't there some rule on eHam about vulgar and offensive language? I don't appreciate being called Shit.
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VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2017, 06:55:44 PM »

OK Paul, clearly there is a language barrier here: "shit stirrer" is British English, English comes from England :-) it is NOT calling you shit, it is saying that you "stir (up) shit")... if looking back on the thread I started, I made some points, then you made some points that were rather offensive. BUT back on to topic:

So you now agree that the QRP frequencies should be respected and that you're asking QRL? and hearing no response does not mean it is not in use, and that you are not causing QRM to QRP QSO? Basically that is what it amounts to. At first you were saying that there is no need for QRP frequencies to be avoided by QRO stations for QRO CQ, QRO DX Pedos etc. Aren't you still saying that, or do you now accept there is a GOOD reason that QRP does have worldwide IARU designated CoA frequencies and that it is a good idea to avoid those when there are so many others you could choose for your DX Pedo, QRO CQ, or contest calling?
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
K3STX
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Posts: 1589




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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2017, 07:25:24 PM »

...do you now accept there is a GOOD reason that QRP does have worldwide IARU designated CoA frequencies and that it is a good idea to avoid those when there are so many others you could choose for your DX Pedo, QRO CQ, or contest calling?

I have not changed my position; I do not accept there is a good reason to avoid the "designated" QRP frequencies. FWIW, I am a QRP operator; not mW like you, but less than 50 watts unless I am in a contest or DXing.

Yes, asking "QRL?" and NOT hearing a response does not mean the frequency is NOT in use, it means that I do not hear it. Isn't that always true? You want me to avoid those designated frequencies because a 1 mW QSO that I can not hear is in progress: that is not something I think happens very often OR it doesn't bother me that I disrupt it. I am not sure which is correct. But if I interfere with a QRP QSO on 7048 kc is that any better than my interfering with a QRP QSO on 7040?

As K8AXW said (I think); we all have to put on our big-boy pants. This is not a war, it is a hobby.

We will agree to disagree. And I do appreciate you not disrespecting my callsign anymore. Apology accepted. You have been a Ham for years; you know doing that is just a step below calling somebody a LID.

paul  Smiley Smiley Smiley
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K8AXW
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Posts: 6361




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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2017, 10:44:44 PM »

STX:  I'm not the one who said anything about "big boy pants" but that's OK.

I would imagine that getting on a frequency that "seems to be clear" actually QRMs a QSO going on someplace in the world.

It is not INTENTIONAL.... it's just as you said, "you're simply not heard".  This is to be expected and although it is upsetting at the time, we have to understand that this is going to happen!

It's no different than driving a car.  You might drive for decades without hitting another car or deer but once in a while it happens.
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VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2017, 11:12:10 PM »

Paul, I don't know which part of this you don't understand, or perhaps you simply don't read the posts?
Who is talking of mW?
QRP generally these days, by and large is around 1W to 5W.
So taking that as an example, a 1W QRP station as QRP.
How many dB is that down on a 100W station (taken as the average non-QRP, non-QRO, standard power)?
It is: 20dB.
20dB is a lot don't you think?
Do you know any antenna that gives you 20dB gain over a dipole on HF? Hard to find such an antenna, right?
If we take the average amateur power non-QRO non-QRP as 100W. How much power will it take to add 20dB to that signal? 100kW.
ONE HUNDRED KILOWATTS.
Do you know any station running even 10kW? 10kW would be 10dB increase over 100W.
I'm so sorry to have to explain this to you.
This is not a case of "let's agree to disagree" because EVERY radio amateur MUST know these things, otherwise, frankly, you should not be on the air, as you are then a danger to others, which appears to be the case here with you: since if you don't understand the above things, it means, you aren't safe to drive on the road.
It means you will cause problems to others, and going by some of your earlier posts, you won't even care about it.
Let us say now that you DO care, and let me take back that "you are being silly" (which was the first allegation YOU made, and I really thought YOU are being silly).
Let us say now that Paul has all the good intentions after all, and that you and I have so much in common both having started with HW-100, that great TX, and both having been very handsome young men and maybe having many other things in common. But we are radio hams not? And some things are BASIC not?
And some of those basic things are to behave in a manner on air that allows other hams not to have their pleasure and rights violated, not?
IN which case: 100W to 1kW is only 10dB difference. A good antenna may be as much as 10dB difference. 1kW and a huge beam may give you 20dB difference.
But going from 100W to 1W on ANY antenna is going to be 20dB DOWN. DOWN is much worse than UP.
It means if your noise level is S4 and the signal at 100W is S6, that signal would be S3.  For you it would be RST: 139 -- you would not even HEAR the signal.
But to the two QRP stations as I explained earlier, one in VK and one in G, their signals can easily be 449 even with QRM, or 529 without it.
On the other hand K3STX who can hear neither of us can easily be with his hundred watts and dipole, RST 569. Zero beat on the QRP frequency, being used as a safe haven for QRP to QRP contacts, your 569 will wipe out our 449.
THAT IS WHY those frequencies are there, and you are SUPPOSED to be considerate and avoid them.
That's what I said in my post, and am still saying, and yet you say I need to get Big Boy Pants. You and any other number of people can say as you wish.
What I am saying is clear FACT and science and plain LOGIC. That logic and those facts really cannot be argued with, hard as that may be for you to accept.
What can be argued is whether you are or not, whether you think QRP should have a right to a safer-haven meeting-place, XTALs, to run low power, etc.

K8AXW of course you are right about that, but we are talking about avoiding the QRP FREQUENCIES for the above reasons.
I don't know of ANY ham, who would advocate calling CQ on the WSPR frequencies, which also have power levels up to 5W or so, and are located in the CW Bands, just because you "can" and because if you ask in CW "QRL?" you will get no answer. The same applies to QRP frequencies, which is why I posted a reminder sticker.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
VK5EEE
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Posts: 1170




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« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2017, 12:39:07 AM »

In other words, in case y'all missed it, this has NOTHING to do with propagation. It is all about a huge 20dB power disadvantage, and thus QRM.
It's obvious to everyone else, including national amateur radio societies world wide, who have collectively via their members worldwide ALL agreed on this issue.
So if you want to tell them all, the vast majority to grow pants or smoke whatever it is you're smoking, be my guest, but it's already been decided long ago.
PLEASE RESPECT IT.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
VK4FFAB
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« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2017, 03:35:03 AM »

wind back in the posts and find the bit about why QRP need a safe area especially for QRP to QRP DX contacts, and why two QRP stations often can hear each other but a QRO station cannot hear one or both QRP,

My personal view here is if one cannot find a bit of free real estate to do their thing they are really not trying hard enough. 30m might be a different story being a very small band, but for all the rest there are more tumble weeds than signals.

There are many reasons why my signal is not heard as long as the person who cannot hear me is operating in good faith and not just making up a story then i am ok with it, I dont know if he can or cannot hear me, but I will take them at their word and spin the dial. Its happened a few times when I have been out portable doing WWFF, but then I have had other listening who informed the person that the freq was in use and they said sorry and moved on.

I tend to think most people are trying to do the right thing, it sucks when it happens to me, but no use getting upset over it. There is nothing anyone can do to change that.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 03:42:59 AM by VK4FFAB » Logged
VK5EEE
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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2017, 04:19:42 AM »

Of course I agree. But the simple point is there ARE "QRP frequencies" marked in the band plans world wide and for good reason. There ARE so many frequencies to choose from. The ONLY frequencies that are marked are the IBP beacon project, as it is important to stay clear of those frequencies, and the QRP frequencies, sometimes also mentioned are "slow CW centre of activity" and in the old days (don't know when or why it was dropped) the bottom 10kHz was reserved for DX to DX QSOs.

These are of course all gentlemen's agreements, the "band plan". Each country has one, and each Region (1, 2, 3) has one: IARU publishes them on their web site and national societies publish more detailed ones on their sites. E.g. in VK, the WIA publishes it, but it is not, contrary to perhaps popular opinion, a WIA members-only band plan: ALL VK hams irrespective of being members of WIA or not are invited to contribute suggestions, and it is a compromise to try to suit all aspects of the hobby.

Hence, taking 20m as an example, for VK we can use 14000 to 14350 for CW (EXCEPT 14099 to 14101), and 14101 to 14350 for SSB. Data shared with CW is 14070-14099. 14060 is QRP. See? 14060 is QRP. For the reasons I've given earlier in this thread. That seems to be forgotten, and there is no harm in reminding those that have forgotten, about it, or should we not do so? Also various digital modes that DEPEND upon particular frequencies, such as WSPR, have SPECIFIED frequency.

In the case of WSPR it is 200 Hz wide. Yes, 0.2 kHz. IN the case of QRP it is also around 0.2 kHz or so. Are we now denying WSPR their 0.2 kHz and denying QRP their 0.2 kHz? Are we that MEAN? WSPR and QRP need clear frequencies to function in general. It's not that WSPR cannot move to 14025 kHz or a QRP cannot use 14025. But they will NOT have the good results of using their "own" agreed frequencies, because that is where they meet and can prosper, free of unnecessary or as you call it "D"QRM.

When this is pointed out, the anarchists (who probably call themselves other nice sounding names such as libertarians, realists, enlightened, smart, whatever) are all against this because they don't believe there should be such demarcations to facilitate and protect aspects of the hobby. But that is only pretense, and trying to be contrarian (trolling perhaps even) to what is common sense and widely accepted, so instead of saying, "yes that's true" they rather say "grow some plants or pants".

In other words: be SILLY.

We're fortunate that the majority of hams DO not use SSB in the CW section, and the majority of digital hams also stick to the digital section, and the majority avoid the beacon frequencies, but what has been forgotten by many UNLIKE the aforementioned 3 examples, and in spite of its popularity, is QRP. Contesters, "DXers" (and I put that in quotation marks as many DXers these days are not DXers in my book), avoid all the above mentioned BUT NOT QRP. They have forgotten, I reminded them. And that appears to be a real crime and very hard for anyone (at least on eHam CW forum here) to accept.

The small boy pointed and said "the emperor has no clothes".

Shoot the messenger by all means, be my guest.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
WB0CJB
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Posts: 131




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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2017, 08:17:49 AM »

I don't reject the idea of reserved frequencies. When I operate I stay away from the digital areas, along with QSOs in progress, and DX pileups. But others who operate digital don't have a problem operating as low as 7030, during a contest or not. But then again the CW gang go and and operate all over the digital areas during contests.

Its a two way street and we all need to work together to maximize the frequencies we all can use according to our license class.

WB0CJB
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