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Author Topic: ICOM offers no Compare between 7610 versus ICOM 7700  (Read 3487 times)
NN2X
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Posts: 247




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« on: November 18, 2017, 05:44:11 PM »

Hi Fellow Ham operators

I don't know if this is the place to ask this questioned, but I will ask anyway!

ICOM has a comparison with the ICOM 7610 with ICOM 7600, 7300, 7851 (Graphically) but not the ICOM 7700

Here is the URL..Scroll down and you will see the graph comparison (RMDR Specs) /Reciprocal mixing dynamic range

http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7610/main.html

However, you will not see a comparison with ICOM 7610 ( $ 3,900) and the ICOM 7700 (5,900).

I am just wondering if the ICOM 7610 is a better rig than ICOM 7700. If that is the case (ICOM 7610) is better, but cost less, maybe that is why their is no comparison chart (RMDR).

Has anyone else noticed this..?

 
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NN4RH
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Posts: 474




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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 04:56:17 AM »


ICOM has a comparison with the ICOM 7610 with ICOM 7600, 7300, 7851 (Graphically) but not the ICOM 7700

. . .

However, you will not see a comparison with ICOM 7610 ( $ 3,900) and the ICOM 7700 (5,900).

Marketing.  7600 is discontinued - they are trying to entice people to upgrade to 7610.  7300 is a much less expensive radio that is very popular - they are trying to entice people to buy the more expensive 7610.  7851 costs three times as much - they're trying to entice people to believe that the 7610 is worth a lot more than what they're asking by comparing to high end radio that nobody is who is looking in the $4k price range would buy anyway.

What would they gain by competing the 7610 versus the 7700 ?  All they'd possibly do is entice people who are considering the more expensive 7700 to go with the less expensive 7610 instead.

Quote
I am just wondering if the ICOM 7610 is a better rig than ICOM 7700.

How do the specifications compare?

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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 819




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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 08:36:38 PM »

Hi Fellow Ham operators

I don't know if this is the place to ask this questioned, but I will ask anyway!

ICOM has a comparison with the ICOM 7610 with ICOM 7600, 7300, 7851 (Graphically) but not the ICOM 7700

Here is the URL..Scroll down and you will see the graph comparison (RMDR Specs) /Reciprocal mixing dynamic range

http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7610/main.html

However, you will not see a comparison with ICOM 7610 ( $ 3,900) and the ICOM 7700 (5,900).

I am just wondering if the ICOM 7610 is a better rig than ICOM 7700. If that is the case (ICOM 7610) is better, but cost less, maybe that is why their is no comparison chart (RMDR).

Has anyone else noticed this..?

I'm not sure why you would even want to do that the IC-7700 is an old radio.  The IC-7700 is selling now at right around $5900.00 and change.  It was a contest radio that competed with the FTdx5000 but it is an old design and while still a good radio, not the same thing as the IC-7610.  It is actually closer to the IC-7600 in terms of performance. 

The IC-7610 is much better at close spaced (2KHZ) rejection of strong signals, I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place in a digital radio.   It is a stupid way to try and compare analog receivers with Direct Digital Sampling Receivers.

Anyway, I think Icom is just trying to sell the rest of the 7700's and I don't know if they are still even producing them.  Why even ask such a question here?  Why not ask Icom America directly?  Buy an IC-7610 or don't, I don't care but it is definitely better than the IC-7700.
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K6AER
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Posts: 4688




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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2017, 04:00:23 PM »

ICOM has a marketing problem with the IC-7610 at almost $4000. The Flex 6400M is a better radio at $2995. At Dayton (Xeina) the hams were flocking to the Flex booth over the new 6400M radio. Icom hid the 7610 at the back of the display booth.
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 819




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« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2017, 08:15:09 PM »

ICOM has a marketing problem with the IC-7610 at almost $4000. The Flex 6400M is a better radio at $2995. At Dayton (Xeina) the hams were flocking to the Flex booth over the new 6400M radio. Icom hid the 7610 at the back of the display booth.

That is amazing, a nonexistent radio is better than the competition?  How is that?  Besides, better is in the eye of the beholder, the tacked on Maestro front panel on the Flex looks like crap and the diplay is rinky dink.  Nice try but I think Icom will do just fine with this rig.
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ZENKI
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Posts: 1439




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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 12:28:35 AM »

Probably because the Icom IC7700 will be discontinued fairly shortly. In its place there will probably be a new model something likely called the IC-7710.

This new model IC7710 will be the IC7610 on steroids with real firmware and features implemented in the IC7710 that the IC7610 cant have because Icom does not want to deliver the full direct sampling feature potential for a cheap price. Icom have deliberately crippled the IC7610  and many of its potential  to maximise its profits and returns from the firmware investment cycle that will be spun into the IC7710 and IC7860.

Maybe the IC7710 will have a calibrated S-meter and a 200 watt transmitter that  has the best possible IMD performance. It would be even better if they directly supported pre-distortion in this radio. But really if they cant be bothered matching the features that other SDR radio manufacturers have  released why are they even in the radio business if all that they want to release is the same worn out feature set that has been with the ham radio market for the last 3 decades?

What is Icom going to do to make its radios better than competition rather than just  being another "me too" radio" that cant distinguish itself in any meaningful or technical way thats better than the competition.

This is exactly what the IC-7610 has turned out to be. Another radio that does not even harness the full potential of the SDR direct sampling platform. If you cant calibrate the S-meter on a direct sampling radio you either dont want to or have incompetent firmware engineers. Its disturbing that a 150 dollar low technology receiver like the SDRPlay can achieve this and Icom cant. Then lets talk about improving transmit IMD. The IC7610's that I have heard on the air have less than impressive IMD performance when   compared with radio like the Anan that produces a brick wall like signal  with almost undetectable IMD  at 5khz offset. The blast of IMD trash from the IC7610 can be clearly seen as far away as 7khz as dominant IMD.

What Icom does very well at is its ergonomics, and front panel layouts.  Icoms ergonomics is what makes   the current generation of Icom radios so popular. One could only imagine how dominant Icom could be in the market place if they delivered the best possible performance and feature set when combined with their ergonomics. They just seem so conservative and mediocre in their ambitions. This can be said when a bunch of amateurs have been developing the ANAN series of radios into better radios and performance than Icom can deliver. Icom has not delivered one radio model that boasts the best possible receiver and transmitter performance to this very day. You would have thought that this objective  would have been their foremost goal considering the emphasis that hams place on performance.

Its very difficult decoding the Japanese marketing logic. But so far its been clear that they dont want to produce the best performing radios in the market or seem incapable of doing so because so many other manufacturers that are not Japanese based have achieved this objective with ease. Maybe they are happy producing mediocre radios that sell well and thats their lot in life?

I look forward to seeing what the IC7710 is capable of.
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 819




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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 07:50:01 AM »

Probably because the Icom IC7700 will be discontinued fairly shortly. In its place there will probably be a new model something likely called the IC-7710.

 Maybe the IC7710 will have a calibrated S-meter and a 200 watt transmitter that  has the best possible IMD performance. It would be even better if they directly supported pre-distortion in this radio. But really if they cant be bothered matching the features that other SDR radio manufacturers have  released why are they even in the radio business if all that they want to release is the same worn out feature set that has been with the ham radio market for the last 3 decades?

What is Icom going to do to make its radios better than competition rather than just  being another "me too" radio" that cant distinguish itself in any meaningful or technical way thats better than the competition.

This is exactly what the IC-7610 has turned out to be. Another radio that does not even harness the full potential of the SDR direct sampling platform. If you cant calibrate the S-meter on a direct sampling radio you either dont want to or have incompetent firmware engineers. Its disturbing that a 150 dollar low technology receiver like the SDRPlay can achieve this and Icom cant. Then lets talk about improving transmit IMD. The IC7610's that I have heard on the air have less than impressive IMD performance when   compared with radio like the Anan that produces a brick wall like signal  with almost undetectable IMD  at 5khz offset. The blast of IMD trash from the IC7610 can be clearly seen as far away as 7khz as dominant IMD.

What Icom does very well at is its ergonomics, and front panel layouts.  Icoms ergonomics is what makes   the current generation of Icom radios so popular. One could only imagine how dominant Icom could be in the market place if they delivered the best possible performance and feature set when combined with their ergonomics. They just seem so conservative and mediocre in their ambitions. This can be said when a bunch of amateurs have been developing the ANAN series of radios into better radios and performance than Icom can deliver. Icom has not delivered one radio model that boasts the best possible receiver and transmitter performance to this very day. You would have thought that this objective  would have been their foremost goal considering the emphasis that hams place on performance.

 Maybe they are happy producing mediocre radios that sell well and thats their lot in life?

I look forward to seeing what the IC7710 is capable of.

Quote
Icom have deliberately crippled the IC7610  and many of its potential  to maximise its profits and returns from the firmware investment cycle that will be spun into the IC7710 and IC7860.

I seriously doubt they have crippled it on purpose, they have built a very nice radio at a fair market price.  And perhaps you know of some company that doesn't seek to maximize profits and return on investment.  Please name them for us so I will know not to buy stock in them.

Quote
Its very difficult decoding the Japanese marketing logic. But so far its been clear that they dont want to produce the best performing radios in the market or seem incapable of doing so because so many other manufacturers that are not Japanese based have achieved this objective with ease.

What other manufacturers have done this with ease ant the same price?  Currently there is no other radio on the market, not that I'm aware of anyway, that offers what the IC-7610 offers at a similar or lower price.  Please don't say Flex, their proposed integrated maestro radios are still vaporware so they don't count.  And then there is the quality factor that has to be accounted for, the Icom radios are very well built and perform as advertised right out of the box.

I could elaborate but I just wanted to quote two of your more twisted statements.  If you really hate Icom that much why bother to comment?  How about you just wait and buy a Flex 6400M if and when it becomes available.  I am sure they will start producing them as soon as they get the money together.

And quite frankly, this thread belongs in the SDR forum and not here. 
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KA4DPO
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Posts: 819




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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 07:59:30 AM »

Thanks to the Moderator for moving this thread to the proper forum.

John.
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N4UE
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Posts: 711




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« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 10:32:25 AM »

As soon as I saw the cowardly "Zenki" handle, I knew it was coming......

- calibrated S- meter
- IMD
- pre-distortion

Gee, I was right. Get a different act, PLEEZE!

ron
N4UE
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W6UV
Member

Posts: 828




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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 10:37:36 AM »

As soon as I saw the cowardly "Zenki" handle, I knew it was coming......

I wonder if we can do some detective work and unmask the identity of this clown? Perhaps some software that analyzes writing style--apply it to all his forum posts and then turn it loose on the Internet to look for matches. Sounds like fun.
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K6UJ
Member

Posts: 1138




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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 07:06:57 PM »

As soon as I saw the cowardly "Zenki" handle, I knew it was coming......

- calibrated S- meter
- IMD
- pre-distortion

Gee, I was right. Get a different act, PLEEZE!

ron
N4UE


Ron,
At first I would actually read thru ZENKI's rhetoric.  They became a a source of entertainment.  Now I don't waste my time and just skip over.  You will have to give him credit though, for a non ham he puts out "almost" convincing statements.   Cheesy

Bob
K6UJ
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DL8OV
Member

Posts: 771




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« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »

Here's the weird thing though. I agree with Zenki's fight for better IMD on ham radio transmitters and I've even invested a considerable amount of my time and money building a decent transmit chain on my transceiver. However, I've contacted 'Zenki' twice via Eham offering to make a joint approach and each time received nothing in return. Not one single email.

OK, I admit that he can be a pain in the ass sometimes and his heart seems to be in the right place. He is however a man of mystery who can't be bothered to even use an anonymous email service such as Google to contact one of his supporters.

Very strange.

Peter DL8OV

P.S. Yes, my homebrew transceiver does have a calibrated signal strength meter that works in either 'S' points or dBm. See http://www.dc4ku.darc.de/S_Meter.pdf
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KA4DPO
Member

Posts: 819




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« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 12:13:13 PM »

As soon as I saw the cowardly "Zenki" handle, I knew it was coming......

- calibrated S- meter
- IMD
- pre-distortion

Gee, I was right. Get a different act, PLEEZE!

ron
N4UE


Ron,
At first I would actually read thru ZENKI's rhetoric.  They became a a source of entertainment.  Now I don't waste my time and just skip over.  You will have to give him credit though, for a non ham he puts out "almost" convincing statements.   Cheesy

Bob
K6UJ

I don't pay any attention to ZENKI, I don't he, or she is someone with any real technical knowledge.  Just spews a few buzz words in a nonsensical context and then expects an answer.  Simply amazing.
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VE3WGO
Member

Posts: 170




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« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 06:17:51 PM »

yea, harping away on the same points gets kind of old fast.

On the other hand, good linearized, low IMD transmitters should be possible with the increasing use of DSP "direct to RF" or "digital upconverter" types of transmitters, but PA linearization does require a digitized (A/D converter, directional coupler, filter and receiver) sample of the output signal, along with some DSP resources to predistort the forward signal, so it's definitely not free.

And the cailbrated S-meter debate is humorous.  The original S-meter was never a calibrated device...  it was just suggested as a guess of what a typical S-meter S9 reading probably was in the 1930s at 50 microvolts, but it was not power, since the system impedance was not specified at the same time!  Now, imagine that 50 microvolts on what kind of antenna impedance in those days...  maybe 450 ohm open wire?  or perhaps an end-fed zepp, or whatever.  So it was just 50 uV.  Not some number of dBm.  And there was no formal spec written anywhere.

Then the IARU got involved and the Europeans decided to keep S9 = 50 microvolts for a CW signal, and assumed it is measured at 50 ohms system impedance which equates to -73 dBm for HF and 5 microvolts or -93 dBm for 30 MHz and up. .... see IARU Region 1 Tech Rec R.1 and VHF Mgrs Hbk:

"
2.1.1 IARU Region 1 Technical Recommendation S-METER READINGS
BRIGHTON 1981, TORREMOLINOS 1990
Standardisation of S-meter readings
• One S-unit corresponds to a signal level difference of 6 dB,
• On the bands below 30 MHz a meter deviation of S-9 corresponds to an available power of -73
dBm from a continuous wave signal generator connected to the receiver input terminals,
• On the bands above 30 MHz this available power shall be -93 dBm,
• The metering system shall be based on quasi-peak detection with an attack time of 10 msec " 2
msec and a decay time constant of at least 500 msec.
"


But it's only a recommendation, not an actual standard(!), and has not been formally adopted by any commercial or manufacturing association that I'm aware of.  Compliance is purely optional, and non-compliance means little.

So it's fun to watch the shenanigans of people getting all emotional about the meaning of S9...  folks, it's merely a suggestion.  Use your best intuition when you send out or receive a "59" or "599" signal report.

May all your sigs be S9, and 73, Ed VE3WGO
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ZS5WC
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Posts: 635


WWW

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« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 11:25:39 PM »

 ???Amazing how Zenki gets shot down when he raises valuable points.

Yes, the 'S' meter standard is an recommendation, but why implement it so poorly then?.
We all get 'S'9 should be equivalent to -73dBm, most rigs , including ICOM are calibrated as such.
readings below 'S'9 However, are WAY off the recommended 6dB standard.
Most are 2-3 dB!.
'S' 6 becomes 'S'0 on an ICOM... cool eh?..
So the 'S' meter acts more like a VU meter below 'S' 9 than what is was intended for.
I have had them all, Including the 7700 , and for instance ,s' meter would read 0 on higher bands, yet the signal sounded like at least an "S" 7!..
Switch to analogue rig, and it IS around 'S'7.
This is NOT normal.
The older NON-DSP Icoms had perfect 'S' meters.
K3 has a perfect 'S' meter.
The 'S' meter anomaly started with the DSP ICOMs, probably because of trying to improve the ever unattainable holy grail of RX close in performance numbers, front end GAIN was reduced.
BUILD an actual HF rig, and you will see what I mean.
Another point is the AGC POP, that everyone seems oblivious of on NEWER ICOMS.
Analogue NB's do NOT suffer from this at all.
Non-repetitive single impulses pegs the AGC.. try this with headphones on listening to a weak station!.

It would seem most Hams today stare themselves blind against the BLING and HYPE and don't actually care about real world performance.

73 de William
ZS4L
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