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Author Topic: REAL CW DXer gives up on FT8  (Read 4065 times)
VK5EEE
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Posts: 1179




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« on: November 27, 2017, 03:05:42 AM »

Sorry to embarrass you Tom with the "REAL" DXer, but I think some of the recent DX Pedos are not real DX Peditions as they are too big, too fast, too fat, too much money, corruption, and denigration and devaluation of an entity for the residents. Your operations, are what it is about, and there are of course others. I have great respect for the bravery of many DX expeditors, but I find the huge piles ups some of them cause and the stupid "5NN" just does nothing for me. But were I better organised, I'd have loved following you around and working you in each place. I called XU7XXX and sadly did not get you, I was QRP. I should have tried harder, would have loved that one.

Now I quote from you on another thread, very interesting, and encouraging:

Forget it.

 After making 55 QSOs on FT8 I have completely given up on trying to operate FT8. Way, way too many idiots who have zero clue as to what they are doing. On the plus side this was the first time FT8 has ever been on the air from Brunei. Sorry but I just don't have the patience to deal with complete lids.     

 I will upload to ClubLog as "Data" and leave it at that. I should have never diverted from operating 100% CW.


                                                                Tom V85/KC0W         

I DO think that FT8 is going to cause problems for FT8 users, here are some likely ones:

* Some stations will use FT8 with 1kW. What will that do to other FT8 stations using 100mW or 1W or 5W?

* Many who can use a keyboard (everyone these days, even some cockroaches and rats have been seen with mobile phones and keyboards) but who obtain a ham license simply by showing up and copying answers from one sheet to another (VK Foundation License for example, and once they get allowed to use digital modes) will simply not know how to get the low power (as they cannot tell difference between SWR and PWR on a dual meter, nor how to measure SWR and PWR), will also not know how to use FT8, nor how to check the signal is clean, nor frequency accuracy, etc etc etc...

Soon the bands will be full of digital signals that are left unattended (how will the authorities verify, as it already is the case on 30m many of the stations are without doubt unattended and left on 24 hours 7 days a week), on the wrong frequencies, with wrong bandwidth, unskilled user, wrong power, and etc... The many idiots who don't have a clue what they are doing can now be found on many digital modes, including digital CW. They should be frequency restricted, to a section of 15m and 10m, and VHF and UHF, they should not have any band segments below 21.1 MHz in my opinion, not 40m, not 80m.

Otherwise it will not be enforceable, just as it currently is neither the norm nor enforceable that VK1FUCK and VK2FART or VK9FLIP and VK0FLOP are using 10W and not 100W or even 1kW, nor that they are not using a keyboard (not allowed by their license), nor that they are not using home brew equipment (which doesn't make sense since you cannot electrocute yourself on a QCX and the QCX is certainly as stable and accurate if not more so than most of the big equipment in use). Multiply this world wide as national societies try to revive ham radio by giving licenses away without exams, instead of making it something that people would aspire and feel proud to possess a license as it was in the old days.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
KD8ZM
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Posts: 28




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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2017, 05:23:08 AM »

FTH8?
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WB4M
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Posts: 267




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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 10:30:08 AM »

I recently read where the Bouvet DX'ped will use FT8 when bands begin to fold or QSO rate drops off.. I feel sure you will see many 1kw FT8 signals on the air.
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N9AOP
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Posts: 676




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« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2017, 10:47:00 AM »

Servers can be overloaded either through heavy use (cyber monday) or hacks.  Is it possible to overload the FT8 robot?
Art
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K0UA
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Posts: 1464




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« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 08:37:52 AM »

Servers can be overloaded either through heavy use (cyber monday) or hacks.  Is it possible to overload the FT8 robot?
Art

There is no such thing as an FT8 robot.  Unless you are calling the FT8 operator a "robot".

Where does this stupid chit come from?
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N9AOP
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Posts: 676




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« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 09:53:43 AM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art
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VK5EEE
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Posts: 1179




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« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 04:14:55 PM »

Art, (no comment, would be rhetorical) Grin

And how hard would it be to program a CW contest station to find clear frequencies, call TEST, decode replies, send replies, increment serial numbers, scan for TEST calls, adjust for propagation live feed results, run multi TX, do the log, in fact, do EVERYTHING from start to end of contest? I bet it is ALREADY being done.

The advantage such a fully automated DCW station would have is it does not get tired, no need for breaks, no need for any human intervention whatsoever.

The one and only disadvantage is has is that it won't decode the CW as well if there are some variations such as QSB, QRN etc. But, it would make up for that by it's ability to compute the success rate, the propagation, immediate information about every frequency that is clear or calling TEST, timing: it would stop the CQ and answer a TEST call on any number of frequencies, then back to a clear frequency to CQ, this can be perfected in the software better than a human may achieve.

ONLY the very best physically and mentally fit human who uses macros, push buttons, and honed skills, may possibly still beat the fully automated Digital CW Contest station. I would compared this to CHESS: the computer beats most humans, BUT the best chess experts can still beat the computer?
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
N9AOP
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Posts: 676




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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2017, 07:54:54 PM »

5EEE, This idea would bring a whole new class of contesting.  'Automated contesting' . 
Art
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2017, 09:23:06 PM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art

Please let me know how it is done,  If you know how to hack the WSJT-x program I am sure you could sell it.  It will send and automatic reply to a station that replyies to your CQ, AND it will sequence it all the way through to the end.  The problem is it won't call CQ again, and it won't log it.

So please put your money where you mouth is, and tell us how to hack the program, and YES at that time I will "give you a break",  but until then, NO, you are just blowing smoke.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 09:25:50 PM by K0UA » Logged
K0UA
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2017, 09:28:37 PM »

Art, (no comment, would be rhetorical) Grin

And how hard would it be to program a CW contest station to find clear frequencies, call TEST, decode replies, send replies, increment serial numbers, scan for TEST calls, adjust for propagation live feed results, run multi TX, do the log, in fact, do EVERYTHING from start to end of contest? I bet it is ALREADY being done.

The advantage such a fully automated DCW station would have is it does not get tired, no need for breaks, no need for any human intervention whatsoever.

The one and only disadvantage is has is that it won't decode the CW as well if there are some variations such as QSB, QRN etc. But, it would make up for that by it's ability to compute the success rate, the propagation, immediate information about every frequency that is clear or calling TEST, timing: it would stop the CQ and answer a TEST call on any number of frequencies, then back to a clear frequency to CQ, this can be perfected in the software better than a human may achieve.

ONLY the very best physically and mentally fit human who uses macros, push buttons, and honed skills, may possibly still beat the fully automated Digital CW Contest station. I would compared this to CHESS: the computer beats most humans, BUT the best chess experts can still beat the computer?

Get to work doing it instead of talking about it, and you can sell it.  Lets see you built this contest robot.  Not saying it couldn't be implemented to some degree, but lets see you do it. All the winners of any CW contest all down to the last man head copy the CW.  They use macros to do all sending and PC to do the logging.

By the way, I hope to heck that someone has invented the fully automated CW contest winning robot.  I hope to get my grubby mitts on it soon.  But I don't think we have advanced this far yet.  But I sure would use the technology if it existed, because I suck at CW.  Anything more than about 16 to 18 wpm and I am lost.  And every CW contest I have ever tried to work, the participants go 25 to 40wpm  Needless to say, I don't do well, even trying to use a decoder as backup.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2017, 09:33:45 PM by K0UA » Logged
AA2UK
Member

Posts: 380




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« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2017, 04:42:58 AM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art
No such duck exists.....
No servers other then some using timing servers but not needed for FT8 if GPS timing is used...
How would store and forward help FT8?
Bill, AA2UK
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2017, 07:47:03 AM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art
No such duck exists.....
No servers other then some using timing servers but not needed for FT8 if GPS timing is used...
How would store and forward help FT8?
Bill, AA2UK

Isn't it amazing that so many are "sure" or "I would bet" that fully automated stations exist.  And all of this surety is without even a shred of proof.  I really don't understand all of this misinformation campaign against a mode (FT8) that most of these folks have never even tried.  I think some actually feel threatened by some of these new modes.  And I don't know why. 
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VK5EEE
Member

Posts: 1179




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« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2017, 08:00:54 AM »

On internet forums the intelligent and the dumb are completely EQUAL.
Which does that give an outright advantage?
On air, on CW at least, fortunately, no such discussions take place -- so the equality doesn't matter. We can all enjoy it!
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
W7ASA
Member

Posts: 476




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« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2017, 08:10:23 AM »

Sooooooo - We don't hold our CW discussions in the digital section -  No.  FT is for those with a desire for it; I prefer communication that supports actual conversations.


>Ray
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1464




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« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2017, 08:26:14 AM »

Sooooooo - We don't hold our CW discussions in the digital section -  No.  FT is for those with a desire for it; I prefer communication that supports actual conversations.


>Ray

You will have to take that up with the CW aficionado that started this thread.  He has an ax to grind with digital modes, DXpeditions, and Contests and gentleman's agreements concerning band plans.
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