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Author Topic: REAL CW DXer gives up on FT8  (Read 3699 times)
VK5EEE
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Posts: 1174




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« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2017, 08:53:48 AM »

Which does that give an outright advantage?
The Retard. Every time.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
AC7CW
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Posts: 1007




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« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2017, 11:46:13 AM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art

Please let me know how it is done,  If you know how to hack the WSJT-x program I am sure you could sell it.  It will send and automatic reply to a station that replyies to your CQ, AND it will sequence it all the way through to the end.  The problem is it won't call CQ again, and it won't log it.

So please put your money where you mouth is, and tell us how to hack the program, and YES at that time I will "give you a break",  but until then, NO, you are just blowing smoke.

You need to prove that it's impossible. Ball is in your court! I hope that nobody tells you how to do it btw.
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
VK4FFAB
Member

Posts: 424




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« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2017, 12:49:10 PM »

Art, (no comment, would be rhetorical) Grin

And how hard would it be to program a CW contest station to find clear frequencies, call TEST, decode replies, send replies, increment serial numbers, scan for TEST calls, adjust for propagation live feed results, run multi TX, do the log, in fact, do EVERYTHING from start to end of contest? I bet it is ALREADY being done.

How hard? Not impossible, but hardly trivial. I have programmed bots for games I have the programming skills to be able to automate the whole CW process, but the problem is this, How do you validate the call sign or serial is correct, ask AGN? over and over to get 2 or 3 responses the same? Doing that for each and every contact is going to make you look like a bot and the point of being a bot is to look like normal human behaviour to avoid detection.

Decoders are notoriously inaccurate, so you never have any idea if the data is valid or not. On the high bands this would not be much of an issue, SNR is always high, but going down to 40 and below a single static crash will add an extra dit or dah that only ears and experience will know the difference. It would be a fun little experiment to run, but I doubt it would get past being more than 75% accurate at best and you are going to look pretty silly sending in a contest log with 25% mistakes in it.

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art

Please let me know how it is done,  If you know how to hack the WSJT-x program I am sure you could sell it.  It will send and automatic reply to a station that replyies to your CQ, AND it will sequence it all the way through to the end.  The problem is it won't call CQ again, and it won't log it.

This is trivial because of the way the software works, simply you write a set of macros using something like AutoIT, its just colour detection to detect when someone replies to your CQ, then use a mix of timers and triggers to click the buttons and when the QSO is complete click the cq button again. Pretty sure the software also integrates with eqsl and lotw so thats just a few more clicks to make happen. Its maybe 200 lines of code at worst.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 12:58:52 PM by VK4FFAB » Logged
K2FW
Member

Posts: 200




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« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2017, 03:44:06 PM »


>Ray

You will have to take that up with the CW aficionado that started this thread.  He has an ax to grind with digital modes, DXpeditions, and Contests and gentleman's agreements concerning band plans.
The larger problem is with the ARRL not making a distinction between modes that are audible, & those that aren't for their DXCC programs. 
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1456




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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2017, 05:24:45 PM »

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art

Please let me know how it is done,  If you know how to hack the WSJT-x program I am sure you could sell it.  It will send and automatic reply to a station that replyies to your CQ, AND it will sequence it all the way through to the end.  The problem is it won't call CQ again, and it won't log it.

So please put your money where you mouth is, and tell us how to hack the program, and YES at that time I will "give you a break",  but until then, NO, you are just blowing smoke.

You need to prove that it's impossible. Ball is in your court! I hope that nobody tells you how to do it btw.


Ha, ha.  Now matey, I can make angels fly out of me arse, and fire shoot from me eyes.  Ball is in your court to prove it impossible.  Smiley

And why would you be so uncharitable to hope no one helps me?  I would help you if you need help with anything.
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VK5EEE
Member

Posts: 1174




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2017, 05:26:33 PM »

DQRM

<yawn>

next?
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
KC0W
Member

Posts: 292




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« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 09:55:55 PM »

 Thanks much Lou.

 I enjoy many of your threads while vehemently disagreeing with others. At the end of the day I think we both have a heartfelt love for Morse code which is all that counts. Unfortunately it looks like V85/KC0W will be my swain song regarding DXpeditions for awhile so I will have to see you "down the road".

 I should have taken video of what is was like for the paltry 55 FT8 QSOs I had as V85/KC0W. It appeared (although I have no proof) some many operators from a certain Asian country were running 2kW+++ into big Yagi's while trying to get the Brunei FT8 QSO. Over & over & over again they would call completely whipping out the QSO I was presently engaged in. On CW & SSB one can somewhat easily deal with pileup shenanigans be employing either "selective listening" or letting the pileup know EXACTLY who you are trying to work. When you are dependent on a computer, as in FT8 operating, things get really, really, frustrating quickly.

 As previously stated this was the first time FT8 was on the air from Brunei. I could easily decode West Coast, Midwest & East Coast USA stations on 80,40 & 20 meters while in the listening mode on FT8. Europe was easy as well. Once a certain Asian country (98% of their amateurs are EXCELLENT operators by the way) found out I was working some long haul FT8 things got completely out of control quickly. I know a little bit about pileup operation so this isn't my first rodeo. Made 36,000+ CW QSOs from DX locations last year alone just to toot my own horn.

 It will be interesting to see how the Bouvet guys handle this FT8 dilemma. Better them than me I guess. For any naysayers who think it's easy to work FT8 from an uncharted waters country I recommend you go somewhere exotic & put your operating recommendations into action. If you are like me (and hopefully your not) you will soon realize it's an exercise in futility trying to deal with (allegedly) multi kilowatt FT8 idiots who call & call & call ad nauseam.

 Oh well, it's only a hobby. Life could be worse.  Smiley


                                                                         Tom V85/KC0W             

                                     
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AE5GT
Member

Posts: 72




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 10:10:50 PM »

Art, (no comment, would be rhetorical) Grin

And how hard would it be to program a CW contest station to find clear frequencies, call TEST, decode replies, send replies, increment serial numbers, scan for TEST calls, adjust for propagation live feed results, run multi TX, do the log, in fact, do EVERYTHING from start to end of contest? I bet it is ALREADY being done.

How hard? Not impossible, but hardly trivial. I have programmed bots for games I have the programming skills to be able to automate the whole CW process, but the problem is this, How do you validate the call sign or serial is correct, ask AGN? over and over to get 2 or 3 responses the same? Doing that for each and every contact is going to make you look like a bot and the point of being a bot is to look like normal human behaviour to avoid detection.

Decoders are notoriously inaccurate, so you never have any idea if the data is valid or not. On the high bands this would not be much of an issue, SNR is always high, but going down to 40 and below a single static crash will add an extra dit or dah that only ears and experience will know the difference. It would be a fun little experiment to run, but I doubt it would get past being more than 75% accurate at best and you are going to look pretty silly sending in a contest log with 25% mistakes in it.

K0UA, give me a break.  Just how hard would it be for the station on the other end to send an automatic reply rather than having a human push the button.  Didn't store and forward BBS's do just this back in the good old packet days?
Art

Please let me know how it is done,  If you know how to hack the WSJT-x program I am sure you could sell it.  It will send and automatic reply to a station that replyies to your CQ, AND it will sequence it all the way through to the end.  The problem is it won't call CQ again, and it won't log it.

This is trivial because of the way the software works, simply you write a set of macros using something like AutoIT, its just colour detection to detect when someone replies to your CQ, then use a mix of timers and triggers to click the buttons and when the QSO is complete click the cq button again. Pretty sure the software also integrates with eqsl and lotw so thats just a few more clicks to make happen. Its maybe 200 lines of code at worst.




Checking the calll is easy you just check it against the database . Serial number just dont use it in contest with serial numbers , any other exchange you check it against the database if ( match ) { ok = 1}  else { repeat() }  ... to find a clear frequency use the panadadpter  /waterfall... search from bottom of the band look for 300 hz free of  spikes .....propagation ? not a problem  just use last years log . switch bands at the same time .... didnt win last year ...auto upload the winning stations cabrillo and use their band switch times. ... contesting is repetative. Otherwise just do what contesters do  use multiple radios work all the bands and propagation is a "dont care" .


With open source GPL'd code  most of the hard work is already done ,, the hard part is decoding (FT8 is software based so thats already done CW is lot harder because its so variable) .

The easiest is an FT8 ,single band , with no serial in the exchange .  you just need to get the .tgz from the website  and add a background thread to automate the handling of the exchange.

It can be done . somebody just has to want too.

Not difficult ...just time consuming ... no i m not gunna do it. i got other software to write.  
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VK5EEE
Member

Posts: 1174




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 10:11:44 PM »

I enjoy many of your threads while vehemently disagreeing with others.
How dare anyone disagree with sound Hungarian logic and lack of diplomacy!!!  Grin

Oh well, it's only a hobby. Life could be worse.  Smiley                              
Exactly. Not having or able to practice the hobby life  could be a LOT worse.

Oh, so we're not going to hear you floating around the Pacific for a while! It's been amazing seeing you pop up in all these places... had I known from the outset I'd have just made an effort to work you at each location, as that really would have been fun.

The big DXPedo "remote reef" 5NN UP stuff doesn't do it for me. I'm not too surprised about the FT8, I guess PSK31 or better, faster one, would be best digital mode, but I'm not up on digital these days. I think CW still cannot be beat for the QSK element alone, easiest for DX.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
SV5DKL
Member

Posts: 6




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« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 11:26:34 PM »

A bit of intelligence, a 3rd party app, some scripting and WSJT-X 1.8.0 RC1 core software, was all that was required to build up my FT8 Robot.
Since 24th July, it has worked 11787 QSOs for me, until now. Someone may even set up one with even less effort, I guess.

I have always been in love with CW. This is not gonna change.

As I have mentioned in my post here: https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/the-mother-of-all-ft8-threads.575999/page-7
I really find no purpose in working FT8 contacts. And I insist that ARRL made a terrible mistake, accepting FT8 QSOs for their digital part of DXCC Award Programme. First, because it is a mode
that can work QSOs unattended and then, because you just can't mix the efforts of all those DXers of the past, with the digital DXers of 2017. They could have inserted another DXCC category
for semi- or full-auto digital PC QSOs only. Anyway, it's obvious that money is on top and the DXCC market is going for a World Record.

eQSL.cc has already awarded me eDX100 award (respective to ARRL's DXCC) for confirming 106 entities, solely in FT8 ... you know what? I wasn't there! My FT8 Robot took care of the handshaking and acknowledging of all these contacts. Until today, FT8 worked entities here count 153 ... you know what? I wasn't there, either! So, how is ARRL going to cope with the reaction
of all those DXers that have spent a life over a radio, listened tons of noise, DQRM, QRN, etc., invested in land, great antennas, amps, preamps, etc, who now are waived by the basement or apartment guys that with a balcony random wire are equally awarded and acknowledged?

Why I do it? It's the best way to demonstrate that it's the end of Ham Radio as we know (knew) it, and to show that this is anything but Ham Spirit. Of course, as long as things remain the same, I also give the chance to many (who maybe otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity) to easily confirm Dodecanese (SV5) on many bands. I sure hope this will bring a reaction ...

Finally, in contrary to what Mr. Joe Taylor is suggesting in WSJT-X's release notes, I am certain he has already compiled versions of his software that can run fully automated and unattended, but
they are not letting him make it available for public use, as this would contradict with regulations regarding specified bandwidth, legislation, etc. Furthermore, ARRL would then have to review and totally reform the DXCC Award Programme, which is costly and would cause reactions.

Looking forward to 2020 CQ WW FT8 Contest. I will participate in SOMT category with 6x Robots (btw, no filters required if all TX at the same period) Smiley ... you know what? ... I WON'T BE THERE!
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VK5EEE
Member

Posts: 1174




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« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 04:30:11 AM »

KLM/KLS SV5DKL es EFT!

I hope we will hear more from you, what a great first post here and what a great project. You've driven another nail into the DXCC coffin. That ARRL and it's worthle$$ DXCC need to go into the dustbin of history and be replaced by a REAL DXCC.

"all those DXers that have spent a life over a radio, listened tons of noise, DQRM, QRN, etc., invested in land, great antennas, amps, preamps, etc" have not been shat upon by ARRL-DXCC.

What a shame to those who worked so hard for DXCC the honest way, to have it devalued first by 5NN TU cheating operations facilitated by Internet, and now FT8.

WARC bands also should not be valid for DXCC if illegal wide-split operation was used, let alone fake false 5NN reports. Another step closer to the end. Like all things in the West, they go backwards in time: radios, cars, people, DXCC, it's headed for the INEVITABLE COLLAPSE.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
NI0C
Member

Posts: 2937




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2017, 02:02:48 PM »

Quote
So, how is ARRL going to cope with the reaction
of all those DXers that have spent a life over a radio, listened tons of noise, DQRM, QRN, etc., invested in land, great antennas, amps, preamps, etc, who now are waived by the basement or apartment guys that with a balcony random wire are equally awarded and acknowledged?

Quote
What a shame to those who worked so hard for DXCC the honest way, to have it devalued first by 5NN TU cheating operations facilitated by Internet, and now FT8.

You guys worry too much!  I earned my first DXCC in 1963, am on mixed and CW honor rolls, Challenge, 5B, etc.  Now, thanks to FT8, I'm well on my way towards my first Digital DXCC.  It's as much fun as it ever was!

73 de Chuck  NI0C
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1456




Ignore
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2017, 03:20:38 PM »

KLM/KLS SV5DKL es EFT!

I hope we will hear more from you, what a great first post here and what a great project. You've driven another nail into the DXCC coffin. That ARRL and it's worthle$$ DXCC need to go into the dustbin of history and be replaced by a REAL DXCC.

"all those DXers that have spent a life over a radio, listened tons of noise, DQRM, QRN, etc., invested in land, great antennas, amps, preamps, etc" have not been shat upon by ARRL-DXCC.

What a shame to those who worked so hard for DXCC the honest way, to have it devalued first by 5NN TU cheating operations facilitated by Internet, and now FT8.

WARC bands also should not be valid for DXCC if illegal wide-split operation was used, let alone fake false 5NN reports. Another step closer to the end. Like all things in the West, they go backwards in time: radios, cars, people, DXCC, it's headed for the INEVITABLE COLLAPSE.

Glad to hear it!
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K0UA
Member

Posts: 1456




Ignore
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2017, 03:24:15 PM »

A bit of intelligence, a 3rd party app, some scripting and WSJT-X 1.8.0 RC1 core software, was all that was required to build up my FT8 Robot.
Since 24th July, it has worked 11787 QSOs for me, until now. Someone may even set up one with even less effort, I guess.

I have always been in love with CW. This is not gonna change.

As I have mentioned in my post here: https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/the-mother-of-all-ft8-threads.575999/page-7
I really find no purpose in working FT8 contacts. And I insist that ARRL made a terrible mistake, accepting FT8 QSOs for their digital part of DXCC Award Programme. First, because it is a mode
that can work QSOs unattended and then, because you just can't mix the efforts of all those DXers of the past, with the digital DXers of 2017. They could have inserted another DXCC category
for semi- or full-auto digital PC QSOs only. Anyway, it's obvious that money is on top and the DXCC market is going for a World Record.

eQSL.cc has already awarded me eDX100 award (respective to ARRL's DXCC) for confirming 106 entities, solely in FT8 ... you know what? I wasn't there! My FT8 Robot took care of the handshaking and acknowledging of all these contacts. Until today, FT8 worked entities here count 153 ... you know what? I wasn't there, either! So, how is ARRL going to cope with the reaction
of all those DXers that have spent a life over a radio, listened tons of noise, DQRM, QRN, etc., invested in land, great antennas, amps, preamps, etc, who now are waived by the basement or apartment guys that with a balcony random wire are equally awarded and acknowledged?

Why I do it? It's the best way to demonstrate that it's the end of Ham Radio as we know (knew) it, and to show that this is anything but Ham Spirit. Of course, as long as things remain the same, I also give the chance to many (who maybe otherwise wouldn't have the opportunity) to easily confirm Dodecanese (SV5) on many bands. I sure hope this will bring a reaction ...

Finally, in contrary to what Mr. Joe Taylor is suggesting in WSJT-X's release notes, I am certain he has already compiled versions of his software that can run fully automated and unattended, but
they are not letting him make it available for public use, as this would contradict with regulations regarding specified bandwidth, legislation, etc. Furthermore, ARRL would then have to review and totally reform the DXCC Award Programme, which is costly and would cause reactions.

Looking forward to 2020 CQ WW FT8 Contest. I will participate in SOMT category with 6x Robots (btw, no filters required if all TX at the same period) Smiley ... you know what? ... I WON'T BE THERE!

Hm.  If you have had nearly 12,000 FT8 contacts. then how come I haven't worked you.  I just checked LOTW, and you are not in my log, and I am about as active as anyone.
I have worked this guy:
Station
Call Sign       K0UA
DXCC       UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
CQ Zone       4
ITU Zone       7
Grid       EM36JQ
State       Missouri (MO)
County       TANEY
Worked Station
Worked       SV5BYP
DXCC       DODECANESE (45)
CQ Zone       20
ITU Zone       28
IOTA       EU-001
Grid       KM46BJ
Date/Time       2017-08-09 21:06:00
Mode       FT8 (DATA)
Band       20M
Frequency       14.07540
QSL       2017-08-18 16:23:15


But I haven't worked your "robot. "
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VK5EEE
Member

Posts: 1174




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« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2017, 08:20:49 PM »

Obviously not. But if you also made a robot and approached anywhere near the same number of QSO as SV5DKL robot, then I bet you're two robots would have had QSO. It's rather odd to claim it odd that SV5DKL didn't have a QSO with you when you are not on the air 24/7.
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Long Live Real Human CW and wishing you many happy CW QSO - 77 - CW Forever

Support CW and join CW clubs. QTT: FIST#1124, HSC#1437, UFT#728, RCWC#982, SKCC#15007, CWOPS#1714, 30CW#1,
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