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Author Topic: Hmm, What IF???  (Read 1579 times)
KN6SD
Member

Posts: 166




Ignore
« on: December 02, 2017, 11:32:15 AM »

Here's another approach to the Whole antenna/cc&r debate:

What if the ARRL scrapped the current Amateur Radio Parity Act language, replaced it with something similar to my "Homeowners Wireless Freedom Act" and added an exemption to HOA Governed communities as long as they allowed at a minimum X & Y antennas... Antennas (X & Y) that are comparable to the Diamond X-510 (example only) mounted 12ft above the roof and a ground mounted Hustler 5BTV vertical (or wire) antenna for HF in the rear of the property.
 
Now, if the HOA would allow a licensed amateur at least two modest antennas, and the other radio services at least one Omni-directional roof mounted antenna similar to the Diamond, then they would be EXEMPT from a total CC&R pre-emption. Now in a condo more than one antenna would probably be a stretch, but in a detached single family residence, there shouldn't be a problem allowing two antennas.. If the HOA wanted to allow more or larger types, that would be permissible, but not mandatory like the minimum antenna requirements. These new antenna standards would become an OTARD equivalent for Two-Way and One-Way radio services.

Of course, if the HOA is dissolved or the property was never governed by one, then a CC&R antenna/transceiver pre-emption would apply...

So should the Radio Community purpose an OTARD equivalent for Transmitting / Receiving (non-video)  Antennas in Privately Governed Communities???

73,
Russ
KN6SD
 

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WD4ELG
Member

Posts: 183




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« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 04:39:26 PM »

I like your thinking, Russ. 

But I don't want an HOA limiting me to a 5BTV or a single wire.  That's not what I call a compromise. 

I'm going with a modest approach.  I don't want multiple towers.  But what's wrong with one tower at 60 feet in height?  I want to put up a 2 meter yagi for EME, a JK yagi on a short boom for 20-10, and a 6 meter yagi for Sporadic E.  If my yard is an acre in size, and the yagi has trees around it so it's hard to see from the road, how is that NOT reasonable?  I don't want the antenna right next to the house, I don't want to draw attention to the thing.  I think my approach is very accomodating of others.

<I think you get my point, I am just giving a hypothetical reply>
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KN6SD
Member

Posts: 166




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« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 07:11:04 PM »

I like your thinking, Russ. 

But I don't want an HOA limiting me to a 5BTV or a single wire.  That's not what I call a compromise. 

I'm going with a modest approach.  I don't want multiple towers.  But what's wrong with one tower at 60 feet in height?  I want to put up a 2 meter yagi for EME, a JK yagi on a short boom for 20-10, and a 6 meter yagi for Sporadic E.  If my yard is an acre in size, and the yagi has trees around it so it's hard to see from the road, how is that NOT reasonable?  I don't want the antenna right next to the house, I don't want to draw attention to the thing.  I think my approach is very accomodating of others.

<I think you get my point, I am just giving a hypothetical reply>

Hi WD4ELG,

Your point is well taken.. So you're thinking my exemption idea should drop off after a certain lot size and density?

73,
Russ
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 632




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« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 05:17:01 AM »

I like your thinking, Russ. 

But I don't want an HOA limiting me to a 5BTV or a single wire.  That's not what I call a compromise. 

I'm going with a modest approach.  I don't want multiple towers.  But what's wrong with one tower at 60 feet in height?  I want to put up a 2 meter yagi for EME, a JK yagi on a short boom for 20-10, and a 6 meter yagi for Sporadic E.  If my yard is an acre in size, and the yagi has trees around it so it's hard to see from the road, how is that NOT reasonable?  I don't want the antenna right next to the house, I don't want to draw attention to the thing.  I think my approach is very accomodating of others.

<I think you get my point, I am just giving a hypothetical reply>

Hi WD4ELG,

Your point is well taken.. So you're thinking my exemption idea should drop off after a certain lot size and density?

73,
Russ

I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size. I've said elsewhere, I don't see an issue with a homeowner putting up a hexbeam (or something similar) on their roof and a vertical or wire antenna for the low bands in their back yard. I wouldn't complain if there was a requirement to have the antennas installed professionally. In the case of antennas, one size does not fit all. My feeling is that as long as your antenna can not do property damage to a neighbors land, I don't see where anyone other than the land owner has a say in what can and what can not be placed on someone else's land as long as zoning laws are followed.
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KN6SD
Member

Posts: 166




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 09:39:25 AM »

I like your thinking, Russ. 

But I don't want an HOA limiting me to a 5BTV or a single wire.  That's not what I call a compromise. 

I'm going with a modest approach.  I don't want multiple towers.  But what's wrong with one tower at 60 feet in height?  I want to put up a 2 meter yagi for EME, a JK yagi on a short boom for 20-10, and a 6 meter yagi for Sporadic E.  If my yard is an acre in size, and the yagi has trees around it so it's hard to see from the road, how is that NOT reasonable?  I don't want the antenna right next to the house, I don't want to draw attention to the thing.  I think my approach is very accomodating of others.

<I think you get my point, I am just giving a hypothetical reply>

Hi WD4ELG,

Your point is well taken.. So you're thinking my exemption idea should drop off after a certain lot size and density?

73,
Russ

I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size. I've said elsewhere, I don't see an issue with a homeowner putting up a hexbeam (or something similar) on their roof and a vertical or wire antenna for the low bands in their back yard. I wouldn't complain if there was a requirement to have the antennas installed professionally. In the case of antennas, one size does not fit all. My feeling is that as long as your antenna can not do property damage to a neighbors land, I don't see where anyone other than the land owner has a say in what can and what can not be placed on someone else's land as long as zoning laws are followed.

Hi KSP,

I hope you had a nice Turkey Day.. On to Antennas, I agree with you, But we have to deal with the Visual impact of the system, not only its safety. I believe the only way we can get a bill through both houses, is to come up with an OTARD type standard that will allow operators to get on the air. It won't be the best for the Ops, but they will be on the air with an outdoor antenna. Of course, there could be a multi-tier criteria developed for the size lot and type of housing.. But, I don't think a hex beam would be a good fit in an area where the driveways are so small you can't park a standard sized pickup on them. Remember, in some of these developments the homes have almost NO Yard in the back, and very little in the front...

Always remember, CAI and the HOA's they represent are not concerned with antenna safety, it's the appearance and its perceived impact on the neighborhood...

73,
Russ
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 632




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2017, 10:57:33 AM »

Hi, If you read my post you would have read the following; " I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size". I live in a lot which is nearly half an acre. On a lot that size having a hex beam on your roof leaves plenty of space between my home and my neighbors (each of whom have houses hundreds of feet from their property line). In my old house which was on 1/4 an acre
 of land and which had nearly 3 feet of land between the homes I had no problem with my TH5 mounted on the roof. If a home is attached or semi attached that's a different subject. My TH5 was mounted on a five foot tripod and was guyed to the roof. When I moved into the house there was a large in ground pool in the back yard. I had the pool filled in and mounted a Butternut HF 2 V for the low bands. Neither antenna (nor my separate VHF & UHF TV antennas or my 2 meter beam) caused any problems with my neighbors. Home turnover wasn't effected by my antenna system and we had no problem selling our home and getting our asking price when we did sell. Too much of this is being over analyzed.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 11:01:58 AM by WB2KSP » Logged
KN6SD
Member

Posts: 166




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2017, 12:21:27 PM »

Hi, If you read my post you would have read the following; " I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size". I live in a lot which is nearly half an acre. On a lot that size having a hex beam on your roof leaves plenty of space between my home and my neighbors (each of whom have houses hundreds of feet from their property line). In my old house which was on 1/4 an acre
 of land and which had nearly 3 feet of land between the homes I had no problem with my TH5 mounted on the roof. If a home is attached or semi attached that's a different subject. My TH5 was mounted on a five foot tripod and was guyed to the roof. When I moved into the house there was a large in ground pool in the back yard. I had the pool filled in and mounted a Butternut HF 2 V for the low bands. Neither antenna (nor my separate VHF & UHF TV antennas or my 2 meter beam) caused any problems with my neighbors. Home turnover wasn't effected by my antenna system and we had no problem selling our home and getting our asking price when we did sell. Too much of this is being over analyzed.



Look I understand your frustration, but the HOA's are concerned with Visual Impact, that's why I have proposed the exemption that guarantees only certain types of antennas. The exemption should also provide the HOA Board with legal protection to grant installation permission for larger systems. Under my proposed idea, it would be up to you to convince your HOA Board that larger antennas should be allowed on your lot...

I'm sorry, I don't have any other solution...

73,
Russ
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WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 632




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2017, 01:10:58 PM »

Hi, If you read my post you would have read the following; " I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size". I live in a lot which is nearly half an acre. On a lot that size having a hex beam on your roof leaves plenty of space between my home and my neighbors (each of whom have houses hundreds of feet from their property line). In my old house which was on 1/4 an acre
 of land and which had nearly 3 feet of land between the homes I had no problem with my TH5 mounted on the roof. If a home is attached or semi attached that's a different subject. My TH5 was mounted on a five foot tripod and was guyed to the roof. When I moved into the house there was a large in ground pool in the back yard. I had the pool filled in and mounted a Butternut HF 2 V for the low bands. Neither antenna (nor my separate VHF & UHF TV antennas or my 2 meter beam) caused any problems with my neighbors. Home turnover wasn't effected by my antenna system and we had no problem selling our home and getting our asking price when we did sell. Too much of this is being over analyzed.



Look I understand your frustration, but the HOA's are concerned with Visual Impact, that's why I have proposed the exemption that guarantees only certain types of antennas. The exemption should also provide the HOA Board with legal protection to grant installation permission for larger systems. Under my proposed idea, it would be up to you to convince your HOA Board that larger antennas should be allowed on your lot...

I'm sorry, I don't have any other solution...

73,
Russ

That is why my idea is to have a national law which overturns antenna regulations covenants. That way no antenna design minimum's are given to an HOA. The perspective purchaser can negotiate with an HOA. If I'm looking for a home in the $500,000 range and the HOA feels so confident that they'll turn down my cash, I can then go to the next one and negotiate with them. in most of the country $500,000 will buuy you lots of home. The only areas where that kind of money doesn't amount to much is the San Francisco Bay area and NY. I'm only using that number as a negotiating figure. With that kind of money your options in HOA neighborhoods are greatly expanded. Have the covenants overturned first and see where that gets us. As of now covenants are what are keeping antennas out of many neighborhoods. These HOA's couldn't allow you to install an antenna even if they wanted to.
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KN6SD
Member

Posts: 166




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2017, 02:11:07 PM »

Hi, If you read my post you would have read the following; " I would think that any antenna restriction should be based on lot size". I live in a lot which is nearly half an acre. On a lot that size having a hex beam on your roof leaves plenty of space between my home and my neighbors (each of whom have houses hundreds of feet from their property line). In my old house which was on 1/4 an acre
 of land and which had nearly 3 feet of land between the homes I had no problem with my TH5 mounted on the roof. If a home is attached or semi attached that's a different subject. My TH5 was mounted on a five foot tripod and was guyed to the roof. When I moved into the house there was a large in ground pool in the back yard. I had the pool filled in and mounted a Butternut HF 2 V for the low bands. Neither antenna (nor my separate VHF & UHF TV antennas or my 2 meter beam) caused any problems with my neighbors. Home turnover wasn't effected by my antenna system and we had no problem selling our home and getting our asking price when we did sell. Too much of this is being over analyzed.



Look I understand your frustration, but the HOA's are concerned with Visual Impact, that's why I have proposed the exemption that guarantees only certain types of antennas. The exemption should also provide the HOA Board with legal protection to grant installation permission for larger systems. Under my proposed idea, it would be up to you to convince your HOA Board that larger antennas should be allowed on your lot...

I'm sorry, I don't have any other solution...

73,
Russ

That is why my idea is to have a national law which overturns antenna regulations covenants. That way no antenna design minimum's are given to an HOA. The perspective purchaser can negotiate with an HOA. If I'm looking for a home in the $500,000 range and the HOA feels so confident that they'll turn down my cash, I can then go to the next one and negotiate with them. in most of the country $500,000 will buuy you lots of home. The only areas where that kind of money doesn't amount to much is the San Francisco Bay area and NY. I'm only using that number as a negotiating figure. With that kind of money your options in HOA neighborhoods are greatly expanded. Have the covenants overturned first and see where that gets us. As of now covenants are what are keeping antennas out of many neighborhoods. These HOA's couldn't allow you to install an antenna even if they wanted to.

I'm sorry, I just don't see that happening in the current political environment... To be honest, I don't see anything happening with CC&R's for a long time. Why, CAI is not budging, and ARRL has lost the support of its members. If ARRL does somehow get the current language through, I believe it will cost them lots of members...

Just my opinion......

73,
Russ
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AA4PB
Member

Posts: 14354




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« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2017, 03:21:04 PM »

"If I'm looking for a home in the $500,000 range and the HOA feels so confident that they'll turn down my cash...."

The HOA doesn't get your $500,000 cash, the home seller does. The home seller has no say in what type of antenna the HOA permits and the HOA, in most cases, doesn't care whether you purchase the home or not.
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Bob  AA4PB
Garrisonville, VA
WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 632




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« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2017, 03:42:26 AM »

"If I'm looking for a home in the $500,000 range and the HOA feels so confident that they'll turn down my cash...."

The HOA doesn't get your $500,000 cash, the home seller does. The home seller has no say in what type of antenna the HOA permits and the HOA, in most cases, doesn't care whether you purchase the home or not.


If you are purchasing a new home, the seller is the builder. In a new house the builder is the HOA.
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N3HEE
Member

Posts: 450


WWW

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« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2017, 06:57:52 AM »

The HOA is a separate entity.  Many subdivisions have multiple builders in which the land developer has drafted the restrictive covenants.  The builder may have had input into the restrictive covenants for the subdivision but probably not.  Come to the DC area and see what $500K gets you!  Not much ! 
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Joe
N3HEE
CW Academy Advisor (Level II)
WB2KSP
Member

Posts: 632




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« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2017, 07:38:43 AM »

The HOA is a separate entity.  Many subdivisions have multiple builders in which the land developer has drafted the restrictive covenants.  The builder may have had input into the restrictive covenants for the subdivision but probably not.  Come to the DC area and see what $500K gets you!  Not much ! 

I am, well aware of home costs. I live in a suburb of NYC (where property values are higher than DC) and 500,000 doesn't get you lots here either and in the San Francisco Bay area $500,000 won't even buy you a high ranch. On the other hand in most of the country, $500,000 will pay for a decent home and it's not something to be sniffed at. The point I was making was that a newly constructed community wants to sell homes and in today's economy the builder doesn't want to turn away cash. If they didn't have to abide by restrictive covenants that would give them the ability to deal with a purchaser.
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N5PZJ
Member

Posts: 110




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« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2017, 01:58:02 PM »

This legislation 555/1534 is a compromise at best and will probably be shoved through in coming year to placate CAI.   CAI's biggest fear is a lawsuit out of left or right (Pick your orientation) field which antennas are the subject matter and a court holds it as the Province of the FCC as the 4th Circuit has done in KC, Missouri!  More in play than just us hams here.     

Most HOAs use blanket covenant sheets (boilerplate) and the developers don't have the technical expertise to tell the difference between TV, Ham, CB, Wireless or anything else so they just ban everything and then blame it on OTARD when some one complains. 

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K7JQ
Member

Posts: 959




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« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2017, 04:24:58 PM »

The HOA is a separate entity.  Many subdivisions have multiple builders in which the land developer has drafted the restrictive covenants.  The builder may have had input into the restrictive covenants for the subdivision but probably not.  Come to the DC area and see what $500K gets you!  Not much ! 

I am, well aware of home costs. I live in a suburb of NYC (where property values are higher than DC) and 500,000 doesn't get you lots here either and in the San Francisco Bay area $500,000 won't even buy you a high ranch. On the other hand in most of the country, $500,000 will pay for a decent home and it's not something to be sniffed at. The point I was making was that a newly constructed community wants to sell homes and in today's economy the builder doesn't want to turn away cash. If they didn't have to abide by restrictive covenants that would give them the ability to deal with a purchaser.

In my 25 years of purchasing three new-construction subdivision (HOA) homes here in the Phoenix, AZ area, there's no such thing as negotiating a deal, unless it's a pre-built "spec" house. And even then, they'll just throw in the value of some included upgrades as an incentive. Ordering a new-build from scratch, the price as listed on the sheet is it, plus any listed available upgrades. Doesn't matter if it's a $150K or a $800K price tag, cash or financed. Tell them that you want to construct a ham radio antenna, and the answer is..."next". Especially in today's new housing boom where inventories are low, demand is high, and the builders can't find enough skilled laborers to build houses.

I have to agree with Russ. CC&R antenna restrictions are not going away...it's strictly a matter of visual impact. I'd love to be optimistic about some antenna restriction relief, but I don't see it happening. Going stealth and crossing your fingers is the only option...hoping your neighbors won't see something, and say something.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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