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Author Topic: DXpedition Funding - Is a change coming?  (Read 9039 times)
N1UR
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Posts: 190




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« on: July 06, 2018, 03:26:37 AM »

N5PG and 3Z9DX have opened up a new topic about DXpedition funding and I thought that starting a new thread makes more sense than mixing it in with 3Y0I updates.

Clearly A LOT of money was lost on a failed DXpedition.  In reading about the details, it was clear to me that in this case, major dollars did not insure safety or success.  In fact, it ultimately handicapped options in the Bouvet case.

If, in fact, the donor stream is adversely affect for the future, other DXpedition funding mechanisms will have to emerge to make DX continue to appear in rare places.

I had brought up the concern about Baker devoting 25% of its Qs to FT8 and wondering if that crowd is going to "pay their share".  Supposedly a lot of ATNOs were made.  Is that worth anything to the recipient?

N5PG talks of a back end funding mechanism - you can work me but you will never get it confirmed without some $$.  To me, this makes sense as an option.  But whats the market price for it?  Especially if there is a statement that the Q will NEVER appear on LOTW or through the Bureau.

What about Crowd Sourcing/Go Fund Me etc?  In today's world, is the Foundation concept even needed?  A group does a Go Fund Me and doesn't commit to the boat or trip until the threshold is reached.

I have seen numerous posts by FT8 users stating that they keep working a country until one shows up on LOTW but don't pay to QSL.  Its the common "the internet should be free" mentality.  Given the choice, does that person pay up, or realize they never will have that top 25 entity confirmed?

Ed  N1UR
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W4AMP
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 03:43:41 AM »

I personally believe that allowing remote operations from either coast and FT8 contacts to count has diminished the effort needed for DXCC.
I believe this will have a direct impact on interest and funding.
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K9NW
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Posts: 527




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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 04:40:43 AM »

...FT8 and wondering if that crowd....
...numerous posts by FT8 users...


You seem to be implying that "FT8 users" are a stand alone entity unto themselves.  While there very likely is some number of FT8 only users that worked KH1/KH7Z, I'd guess that a LARGE percentage of those FT8 QSOs were with the same DXers that would have been working them on CW, SSB, and RTTY.  That's certainly what it looked like as I watched calls appear on my screen.  It seems a bit early yet to look at "FT8 users" as a vast and new untapped source of DXpedition $$.
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N5INP
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 04:49:33 AM »

I personally believe that allowing remote operations from either coast and FT8 contacts to count has diminished the effort needed for DXCC.


*** sigh *** here we go again ...  Roll Eyes
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KE4KY
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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 05:41:03 AM »

...FT8 and wondering if that crowd....
...numerous posts by FT8 users...


You seem to be implying that "FT8 users" are a stand alone entity unto themselves.  While there very likely is some number of FT8 only users that worked KH1/KH7Z, I'd guess that a LARGE percentage of those FT8 QSOs were with the same DXers that would have been working them on CW, SSB, and RTTY.  That's certainly what it looked like as I watched calls appear on my screen.  It seems a bit early yet to look at "FT8 users" as a vast and new untapped source of DXpedition $$.

+1

When I was fine tuning my FT8 know how a few days prior to the expedition, it was amazing to read and recognize the many calls being captured each sequence. Well Known dxers & big-time contest ops/stations nearly continually calling CQ & working any and all comers.

I suppose many like myself will stay current with the trends to remain relevant to what is happening in the dxpedition arena. I don't use RTTY except to contest and DX, and make no issue with FT8 being just another venue to capture a band fill or an ATNO as these opportunities present themselves.

My first contact with Baker (as an ATNO) came early in the operation and was with FT8. Glad I took the time to get some assistance setting things up and then jumping into the FT8 watering holes to understand what was happening.

Agreed... The vast majority of the existing dxers (many who already provide dxpedition support) will simply adapt to the trend. It's more than obvious with this recent success.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 05:59:37 AM by KE4KY » Logged

Glenn KE4KY - Ham since 1975
N3QE
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Posts: 5561




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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 05:55:57 AM »

As long as certain loudmoth hams and unnamed DX groups continue to blabber their insults and slams and threats of back end funding looming on the horizon, I will continue to open my wallet to support any major (and many minor) DXPedition that is not associated with them.
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VE3VEE
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Posts: 2052




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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 06:12:45 AM »

I personally believe that allowing remote operations from either coast and FT8 contacts to count has diminished the effort needed for DXCC.

Yes. But good CONDX also diminish the effort needed for DXCC.  Grin

A good antenna does, too. A tall tower does as well. A good amp also diminishes the effort needed for DXCC.  Grin

Marvin VE3VEE
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 06:15:38 AM by VE3VEE » Logged
K0UA
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Posts: 3899




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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 06:27:43 AM »

I personally believe that allowing remote operations from either coast and FT8 contacts to count has diminished the effort needed for DXCC.

Yes. But good CONDX also diminish the effort needed for DXCC.  Grin

A good antenna does, too. A tall tower does as well. A good amp also diminishes the effort needed for DXCC.  Grin

Marvin VE3VEE

You forgot a good location too.  If you are fortunate enough to have a good location, a tall tower with a big honking antenna, and a big amp and a sunspot number above 200, well then Working DXCC should take about 2 days maximum.

I have exactly zero of those things. That's right not a single one of those. Some of you guys on honor roll with most or even all of those things should maybe go hide in the corner with shame. How do you hold up your accomplishments to me, the little guy with nothing.  I say we need some "affirmative action" to even the playing field. In June 2017 we got that "affirmative action"  and it is called FT8.  Suck it up buttercup.  Smiley
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K0YQ
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 06:37:23 AM »

Speaking of paying "their share" it's always interesting to check out the individual upfront sponsors on each DXpedition page.  NCDXF lists their annual individual sponsors too.
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SP65053
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Posts: 27




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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 07:19:47 AM »

"less talk, more work"

In my personal opinion every fund rising before dxpedition begins is a kind of cheating. One does not know what are the skills of operators, how antennas will perform, is the transportation and logistcs predicting all kind of surprises that can occur.

Amateurs who find after dxpedition that team performed well can make donations, pay for direct QSL etc. But payng before is like buyng a pig in a poke.

If the dxpedition team does not have enaugh money they shoud NOT go, and not beg for help from others...
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N5INP
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Posts: 2255




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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 07:36:14 AM »

I have exactly zero of those things. That's right not a single one of those. Some of you guys on honor roll with most or even all of those things should maybe go hide in the corner with shame. How do you hold up your accomplishments to me, the little guy with nothing.  I say we need some "affirmative action" to even the playing field. In June 2017 we got that "affirmative action"  and it is called FT8.  Suck it up buttercup.  Smiley

Yea!  Wink

Me neither. I have a 100W rig and home-made dipoles. No tower, no beam, no amp, no nice quiet country location. I want to use everything I can to help me and FT8 is a big part of that!
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W1BR
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Posts: 4146




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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 07:49:14 AM »

"less talk, more work"

In my personal opinion every fund rising before dxpedition begins is a kind of cheating. One does not know what are the skills of operators, how antennas will perform, is the transportation and logistcs predicting all kind of surprises that can occur.

Amateurs who find after dxpedition that team performed well can make donations, pay for direct QSL etc. But payng before is like buyng a pig in a poke.

If the dxpedition team does not have enaugh money they shoud NOT go, and not beg for help from others...

Thus, we can expect no operations from difficult DXCC locations in the future. Very few hams have the financial resources to come up with 300,000 or more dollars to fund  operations to exotic, remote and dangerous locations out of their own pockets.  Thankfully they have sponsors that help carry the burden.  In many cases they are putting there health and lives on the line... imagine if someone needed emergency medical care on Baker?

I can't think of any MAJOR DXpedition that has not been headed and manned by a Who's Who of skilled and talented world-class operators. Most are respected DXers who have successfully orchestrated previous DXpeditions.

You buy a pig in a poke anytime you buy a handful of lottery tickets... personally,  there are very DXpeditions that have not yielded a contact or two for my log.

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N5PG
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« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 08:04:11 AM »

N5PG and 3Z9DX have opened up a new topic about DXpedition funding and .. . . .

Ed  N1UR

Hey Ed, I merely posted something from the 3Y0I website written by N0UN.
http://www.rebeldxgroup.com/dxpedition-funding/
73
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SP65053
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Posts: 27




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« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2018, 08:25:44 AM »

Once more it is my opinion only but:
Let them be heroes for their money, not for others. Radio community is paying money to few people to create them heroes. I am sure if they invest their own money, dxpeditions will be less costly, better organized and more efficient.
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N0UN
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« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2018, 08:35:22 AM »

As long as certain loudmoth hams and unnamed DX groups continue to blabber their insults and slams and threats of back end funding looming on the horizon, I will continue to open my wallet to support any major (and many minor) DXPedition that is not associated with them.

One less in the Rebel pileups, good on ya'!

N0UN
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