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eHam Forums => Computers And Software => Topic started by: W2BLC on February 29, 2016, 08:04:21 AM



Title: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W2BLC on February 29, 2016, 08:04:21 AM
For many months I have been trying to convert to Linux Mint - a very good Linux distribution. However, it has become abundantly clear that Linux is just not for me There are several programs that I use on a daily basis - including HRD - that have no comparables available for Linux.

The final straw came with the wasted afternoon trying to get my PCI serial board to operate under Linux. So easy with Windows - just install and turn the computer on. It finds and installs the drivers for you and all is good.

I believe that if anything can be done easily - it will not be found on Linux.

So, I have returned to Windows - but, not for the lack of trying. If all you want to do is browse, email, Skype,and office work - then Linux will work well for you. Most other things are way too difficult for the average user.

Bill W2BLC



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5UNX on February 29, 2016, 08:11:27 AM
That's an experience that many have . . . The applications should dictate what OS is good for you. It doesn't matter if its Windows or Linux or whatever, it's about the applications you need.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on February 29, 2016, 08:22:45 AM
FLdigi works well on Linux as does WSJT-X.  CQRlog and LOTW (TQSL) also work well on Linux. Many of these are available via "apt-get install" command.

Kubuntu is a distribution I like, too. But my XYL uses Mint with no more issues than she has on Windows.

Linux is far more secure than Windows but it's not for everyone. And it does take some time (and searching on Google) to get everything working right, sometimes.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KQ9J on February 29, 2016, 08:30:21 AM
Have used one flavor or another of Linux since around 1999 on my shack and home computers. Have used Linux Mint since about 2010. Xlog for logging, FLdigi for digital. I simply have not had any need to run anything else. Seriously, it does everything I need. I would never buy software that didn't run on Linux. I suppose if I absolutely had to have some software package that only came for Win or Mac I would have to reconsider, but I haven't found any need for it yet. I would probably just install the Windows in a VM anyway.

To each his or her own.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W8JX on February 29, 2016, 08:30:38 AM
Some want to believe that Linux is the holy grail and the answer to Windows haters but when reality sets in, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses, you will see that independent of how stable Linux may be, it has VERY VERY limited application support. Some will quickly claim that many businesses use it but they also only use a few applications and those are usually also custom written for their needs. For home users selection is very limited and pales badly to Windows and even Apple at times.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on February 29, 2016, 08:53:11 AM
If you absolutely HAVE to use WIndows programs then stay with Windows. But I would not use it on the Internet. Especially not Outlook or Internet Explorer.

As far as security, here is what PCWorld has to say on the matter of Linux versus Windows security (and remember that PCWorld is a Windows-focused publisher):

http://www.pcworld.com/article/202452/why_linux_is_more_secure_than_windows.html


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5UNX on February 29, 2016, 08:54:02 AM
Some want to believe that Linux is the holy grail and the answer to Windows haters but when reality sets in, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses, you will see that independent of how stable Linux may be, it has VERY VERY limited application support. Some will quickly claim that many businesses use it but they also only use a few applications and those are usually also custom written for their needs. For home users selection is very limited and pales badly to Windows and even Apple at times.

Businesses use a ton of Linux . . . servers that is. I am not away of many that use desktop Linux.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7MEM on February 29, 2016, 09:10:48 AM
Yes, Linux is not for everyone. Although, it is interesting to learn what makes it tick. I have found that its best to just use what ever OS you need for the software you want to use.

I currently use Window 10 on everything I have, but I worked as the lead Unix administrator for 30 years, or more, and managed thousands of Unix systems. I started years before Linux existed. Early on, I was quite the Unix bigot. No one could convince me that Microsoft products were good for anything. But after years of working with the IT guys that handled the PCs, and learning a lot more about PCs, I realized the importance of multiple platforms.

Just use whatever works.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on February 29, 2016, 09:26:57 AM
The easiest way to try Linux for amateur radio is to burn a copy of Andy's Ham Radio for Linux and just run it from the DVD drive. You don't have to "install" anything and a lot of the major ham radio applications are right there to use (FLdigi, for instance); Andy's runs completely in RAM and will not affect your installed operating system. (However Andy's will also not "remember" your settings, either - unless you install it.)

https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/

This was the first cut I made at using my old FT-767GX with FLdigi and CAT controls. It was pretty easy with the rig control configurations for the late 1980s transceiver right there to select. Andy's does allow you to install it to a HD but I found that to be somewhat limiting (especially when it came to installing WSJT-X) and I moved to Kubuntu.

JX's contention that Linux has a limited selection of applications is utter and complete BS. A simple Google search "linux apps" will reveal just how clueless he is. But they are not WIndows apps. Linux is a different paradigm than WIndows and if you cannot adjust to that then you will by stymied at every turn.

Wine is a way to run some Windows apps under Linux and it is also possible to run a Virtual Machine version of WIndows inside a Linux OS.

Andy's is an easy and relatively painless way to try Linux and ham radio. Once you do adjust to the Linux methodology you will find a much larger world of software that allows you far greater control over your computer than you ever could have imagined with Windows.





Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5UNX on February 29, 2016, 09:42:24 AM
Another Linux vs Windows thread . . . same stuff another day. . . . There is not a one size for everyone operating system, just like there is not a one for all ham radio logging app.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on February 29, 2016, 10:41:57 AM
For many months I have been trying to convert to Linux Mint - a very good Linux distribution. However, it has become abundantly clear that Linux is just not for me There are several programs that I use on a daily basis - including HRD - that have no comparables available for Linux.

The final straw came with the wasted afternoon trying to get my PCI serial board to operate under Linux. So easy with Windows - just install and turn the computer on. It finds and installs the drivers for you and all is good.

I believe that if anything can be done easily - it will not be found on Linux.

So, I have returned to Windows - but, not for the lack of trying. If all you want to do is browse, email, Skype,and office work - then Linux will work well for you. Most other things are way too difficult for the average user.

Bill W2BLC

Maybe it has a proprietary driver, like many video cards require.  Mint does have an app in its control center that searches for those drivers.  It usually finds them, but you may have one of those rare cards with no Linux driver.  There aren't many these days, but there are still some.

And Windows really is little better.  I've done hundreds of XP installs and maybe a dozen Win7.  Drivers can be found for just about anything, but only if Windows finds the Ethernet port and it works with no other drivers required.  Good luck if you have no network connectivity after a basic Windows installation, something that has happened more often than not to me, both with XP and 7.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: AC7CW on February 29, 2016, 01:02:23 PM


http://www.pcworld.com/article/202452/why_linux_is_more_secure_than_windows.html

Lame article really.... 'nix systems were designed with networking in mind from the ground up. Bill Gates thought the internet was a fad for a long time. 'nix systems protect systems by protecting the memory area used by apps. Windows uses a labyrinthine system of privileges. The 'nix system is simple and way less fallible.

The article is correct in stating that windows default is for the user to have admin privileges. If one opts for more security and uses a "User" login one will soon find that they have to log out and log in as Admin to do too many things, might as well go with Linux almost...


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W4KYR on February 29, 2016, 02:33:00 PM
Generally speaking...Use all the operating systems out there, don't limit yourself to just one.  They ALL have advantages and disadvantages. Linux has hundreds if not thousands of FREE programs just for the taking. Android probably has even more. The iPad works great for many people and they have ditched their PC's in favor of it. 

Linux might be a good choice to upgrade old Windows XP computers with. Not everyone wants to throw out otherwise perfectly usable computers just because some company no longer supports the operating system. Put that old computer to good use in the ham shack. Or upgrade it with Linux to use on the net.

 I suggest keeping at least one working XP computer around the shack as well as older Windows operating systems around to run legacy programs. Although dated, there are some still perfectly usable ahd FREE ham radio programs kicking around the net that run on Windows 98, 95 and DOS. Programs like old packet radio and logging programs.

Some mill machines run on Windows NT 4.0. Some LMR programming software requires DOS or Windows 95. The Icom M-710 requires DOS to run the programming software on it.

You could keep a packet station going in the corner of your shack running legacy equipment. Some hams already have an old computer, an old TNC and some 25 year old HTX 202 or IC-2AT laying around gathering dust. Put it all to good use and start a packet station.

Bottom line, use whatever you want, but you don't have to limit yourself to just one operating system any more than limiting yourself to one type of ham radio manufacturer.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W8JX on February 29, 2016, 03:30:24 PM
Generally speaking...Use all the operating systems out there, don't limit yourself to just one.  They ALL have advantages and disadvantages. Linux has hundreds if not thousands of FREE programs just for the taking. Android probably has even more. The iPad works great for many people and they have ditched their PC's in favor of it. 

There is likely more free apps for windows than all other combined. Poor logic

Linux might be a good choice to upgrade old Windows XP computers with. Not everyone wants to throw out otherwise perfectly usable computers just because some company no longer supports the operating system. Put that old computer to good use in the ham shack. Or upgrade it with Linux to use on the net.

Perfectly usable? For what standards no longer used, HD standards no longer made, obsolete ram standards ans list goes on. XP machines are pretty old and hardware is old and can die any th=ime and new hardware is dirt cheap.

I suggest keeping at least one working XP computer around the shack as well as older Windows operating systems around to run legacy programs. Although dated, there are some still perfectly usable ahd FREE ham radio programs kicking around the net that run on Windows 98, 95 and DOS. Programs like old packet radio and logging programs.

Bad idea because of reasons above and many do not understand the risks of using a non supported OS on internet and think they know more about security than authors that stopped supporting it.

Some mill machines run on Windows NT 4.0. Some LMR programming software requires DOS or Windows 95. The Icom M-710 requires DOS to run the programming software on it.

Old hardware that needs to be laid to rest

You could keep a packet station going in the corner of your shack running legacy equipment. Some hams already have an old computer, an old TNC and some 25 year old HTX 202 or IC-2AT laying around gathering dust. Put it all to good use and start a packet station.

Why keep a old system that is on borrowed time and power hungry when you can put together a computer on a stick and TNC cheap with modern technology and will likely last many years and run on very minimal power too.

Bottom line, use whatever you want, but you don't have to limit yourself to just one operating system any more than limiting yourself to one type of ham radio manufacturer.

What ever OS you pick for PC pick one as it makes using it and share data among them far easier and a hodge podge of hardware and OSes.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on February 29, 2016, 05:06:55 PM
Some want to believe that Linux is the holy grail and the answer to Windows haters but when reality sets in, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses, you will see that independent of how stable Linux may be, it has VERY VERY limited application support. Some will quickly claim that many businesses use it but they also only use a few applications and those are usually also custom written for their needs. For home users selection is very limited and pales badly to Windows and even Apple at times.
"VERY VERY limited application support" means nothing without definition. If you mean customer support, you can buy it just like any other support. If you mean number of applications, that is meaningless as long as applications you need do not exist.

Many business do use it, as well as various governments the world over.  They use a wide range of applications. And while some are indeed custom apps, the majority are not.

And, AGAIN, number of applications is meaningless as long as the applications you need exist.

Since you obviously know little about Linux based distributions, you might want to refrain from spouting off.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on February 29, 2016, 05:13:54 PM
Some want to believe that Linux is the holy grail and the answer to Windows haters but when reality sets in, unless you are wearing rose colored glasses, you will see that independent of how stable Linux may be, it has VERY VERY limited application support. Some will quickly claim that many businesses use it but they also only use a few applications and those are usually also custom written for their needs. For home users selection is very limited and pales badly to Windows and even Apple at times.

Businesses use a ton of Linux . . . servers that is. I am not away of many that use desktop Linux.

A small list of desktop users:
Google
Munich
Largo
NASA
French Gendarmerie
US Department of Defense
CERN
South African Social Security Agency
University of Information Science in Cuba
U.S. Army
Vienna


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on February 29, 2016, 05:24:48 PM
Generally speaking...Use all the operating systems out there, don't limit yourself to just one.  They ALL have advantages and disadvantages. Linux has hundreds if not thousands of FREE programs just for the taking. Android probably has even more. The iPad works great for many people and they have ditched their PC's in favor of it. 

There is likely more free apps for windows than all other combined. Poor logic
There's a lot of flies surrounding manure, too. So, what?

Linux might be a good choice to upgrade old Windows XP computers with. Not everyone wants to throw out otherwise perfectly usable computers just because some company no longer supports the operating system. Put that old computer to good use in the ham shack. Or upgrade it with Linux to use on the net.
Perfectly usable? For what standards no longer used, HD standards no longer made, obsolete ram standards ans list goes on. XP machines are pretty old and hardware is old and can die any th=ime and new hardware is dirt cheap.
Dirt cheap for you is not dirt cheap for everyone. When are you going to start buying new computers for everyone, and paying for the app upgrades?

I suggest keeping at least one working XP computer around the shack as well as older Windows operating systems around to run legacy programs. Although dated, there are some still perfectly usable ahd FREE ham radio programs kicking around the net that run on Windows 98, 95 and DOS. Programs like old packet radio and logging programs.
Bad idea because of reasons above and many do not understand the risks of using a non supported OS on internet and think they know more about security than authors that stopped supporting it.

Some mill machines run on Windows NT 4.0. Some LMR programming software requires DOS or Windows 95. The Icom M-710 requires DOS to run the programming software on it.
Old hardware that needs to be laid to rest
... or used.

You could keep a packet station going in the corner of your shack running legacy equipment. Some hams already have an old computer, an old TNC and some 25 year old HTX 202 or IC-2AT laying around gathering dust. Put it all to good use and start a packet station.
Why keep a old system that is on borrowed time and power hungry when you can put together a computer on a stick and TNC cheap with modern technology and will likely last many years and run on very minimal power too.
That is exactly what the DOD has done.. with a Linux based distro.

Bottom line, use whatever you want, but you don't have to limit yourself to just one operating system any more than limiting yourself to one type of ham radio manufacturer.
What ever OS you pick for PC pick one as it makes using it and share data among them far easier and a hodge podge of hardware and OSes.
I've picked OpenSuse Tumbleweed for now. I may be switching to Debian Testing.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on February 29, 2016, 05:34:35 PM
For many months I have been trying to convert to Linux Mint - a very good Linux distribution. However, it has become abundantly clear that Linux is just not for me There are several programs that I use on a daily basis - including HRD - that have no comparables available for Linux.
I am not aware of a single application that does all the things HRD does, but I believe that you get the same effect using a couple separate apps. A bit of a cliche regarding *nix apps is that they do one thing well :-)
The final straw came with the wasted afternoon trying to get my PCI serial board to operate under Linux. So easy with Windows - just install and turn the computer on. It finds and installs the drivers for you and all is good.
I am probably going to put a serial card in a couple of my machines. Which card did you get?
I believe that if anything can be done easily - it will not be found on Linux.
I have found the opposite.
So, I have returned to Windows - but, not for the lack of trying. If all you want to do is browse, email, Skype,and office work - then Linux will work well for you. Most other things are way too difficult for the average user.
Bill W2BLC
I do browse, email  and use LibreOffice, but I also edit graphics and video, use digital modes, packet and APRS, slow scan, and a number of other things. All of those are through point and click GUI which the "average user" (whatever that is) is more than capable of using.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on February 29, 2016, 06:21:22 PM
Here is a listing of just the ham radio applications available - for free - on Linux. To see the list use the drop down menu next to "Show me" and select "all", by "title" and then click on "do it now".

https://radio.linux.org.au/?sectpat=All&ordpat=title



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 04:32:01 AM
Here is a listing of just the ham radio applications available - for free - on Linux. To see the list use the drop down menu next to "Show me" and select "all", by "title" and then click on "do it now".

https://radio.linux.org.au/?sectpat=All&ordpat=title

Sure there's a list of a couple hundred "Linux ham radio applications" but only a few of them are worth anything. Most of them are clunky, poorly programmed, and terribly simple-minded. Most are very old.

I am a Linux user myself, but realistically, serious ham radio software for Linux is almost nonexistant compared to Windows or even Mac.   

If someone just has to use HRD then they'll have to use Windows.





Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 04:39:39 AM

A small list of desktop users:
. . .
NASA
. . .
US Department of Defense
. . .
CERN
. . .
U.S. Army
. . .

You're being disingenuous.   You're not going to walk into a NASA or DOD office and find everyone using Linux desktops.  You might find a handful in an entire agency, used by scientific staff for arcane things.

In fact DoD has mandated that everyone (everyone who can) move to Windows 10 by the end of the year.

CERN, sure, at least the scientists, but I'd  bet that  the admin and support staff all use Windows.

Quote
. . .
South African Social Security Agency
. . .
University of Information Science in Cuba
. . .

Yeah. We should all switch to Linux because some obscure but implied to be forward-thinking Cuban university uses it?  More likely they just have antique computers and Linux is the only OS that runs on them.

South African SSA?  Special case of networked systems. Not typical desktop environment.




Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 05:45:12 AM

A small list of desktop users:
. . .
NASA
. . .
US Department of Defense
. . .
CERN
. . .
U.S. Army
. . .

You're being disingenuous.   You're not going to walk into a NASA or DOD office and find everyone using Linux desktops.  You might find a handful in an entire agency, used by scientific staff for arcane things.
You certainly did cut down the list. And I didn't say you'd walk into a NASA or DOD office and find everyone using Linux desktops
You can fly to the ISS. They're using Debian.
In fact DoD has mandated that everyone (everyone who can) move to Windows 10 by the end of the year.
The DOD (Army) has the biggest install of Red Hat in the World. Linux is used on US submarines.
CERN, sure, at least the scientists, but I'd  bet that  the admin and support staff all use Windows.
I don't know about the desktops, but the Large Hadron Collider Logging Server, and the central financial and HR systems are run on Red Hat.

Quote
. . .
South African Social Security Agency
. . .
University of Information Science in Cuba
. . .
Yeah. We should all switch to Linux because some obscure but implied to be forward-thinking Cuban university uses it?  More likely they just have antique computers and Linux is the only OS that runs on them.

South African SSA?  Special case of networked systems. Not typical desktop environment.

You're being just a little cutesy dismissive, aren’t you?
I did not say we should all switch to Linux. I have stated that if   Linux distros don't work for you, don't use them. What I do try to counter is the people that spread innuendo, myths and lies about Linux based software. BTW, if you're  usig a portable computing device, the odds are good it is powered by Linux.
Here's the missing list entries and more:

Google- desktops
Munich - desktops
Largo - desktops
French Gendarmerie - desktops
French Parliament - desktops
Ernie Ball - everything


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 06:09:36 AM
Now you're getting ridiculous. 

You're talking about network servers, supercomputers, and special purpose, arcane customized systems.

Not many of us have Hadron Colliders or nuclear submarines in our homes and offices.


The thread was about desktops.

 The share of desktops using Linux OS is only 1 or 2 percent and that has not changed in decades and is unlikely to ever increase.

Probably the same applies to laptops.

Android for phones and tablets - sure - but that is not what the topic of discussion was.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W8JX on March 01, 2016, 06:47:13 AM
I think NN4RH sums it up well. You cannot equate specialized Linux use with custom built apps for it to home desktop usage yet many try to use it to save face in their pro Linux arguments.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 07:40:18 AM
Now you're getting ridiculous. 
You're talking about network servers, supercomputers, and special purpose, arcane customized systems.
Not many of us have Hadron Colliders or nuclear submarines in our homes and offices.
The thread was about desktops.
Google- desktops
Munich - desktops
Largo - desktops
French Gendarmerie - desktops
French Parliament - desktops
Ernie Ball - everything
Amateur radio operators-desktops
The share of desktops using Linux OS is only 1 or 2 percent and that has not changed in decades and is unlikely to ever increase.
Probably the same applies to laptops.
Yes, so?
Android for phones and tablets - sure - but that is not what the topic of discussion was.
Many people are using tablets as laptop replacements.
And, AGAIN, if Linux distros don't work for you, don't use them. If you've decided you must use HRD, then a Linux based distro is probably not for you. If that is the only Windows app you must have  (for example)  you might be able to put that into a VM. However... Linux based distros are more than adequate for a large number of desktop users. Everyone? No. There's no need to spread innuendo, myths and lies.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 07:41:24 AM
I think NN4RH sums it up well. You cannot equate specialized Linux use with custom built apps for it to home desktop usage yet many try to use it to save face in their pro Linux arguments.

Buy a clue. Get your head out of Microsoft’s butt.

Home video editing is not custom built apps.
Home audio editing is not custom built apps.
Graphics editing is not custom built apps.
Making business or greeting cards is not custom built apps.
Desktop publishing editing is not usually custom built apps.
Using digital modes is not custom built apps.
APRS is not custom built apps.
Packet radio is not custom built apps.
Rig Control is not custom built apps.

All can be accomplished using Linux based distributions, with quality applications.





Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 09:08:47 AM

And, AGAIN, if Linux distros don't work for you, don't use them. . . . There's no need to spread innuendo, myths and lies.

If you had bothered to read the posts instead of mindlessly gut-reacting as you usually do, you would have seen that I AM a Linux user. I'm just not inclined to fall for the "innuendo, myths and lies" that you like to spout.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 09:22:52 AM
I think NN4RH sums it up well. You cannot equate specialized Linux use with custom built apps for it to home desktop usage yet many try to use it to save face in their pro Linux arguments.

Buy a clue. Get your head out of Microsoft’s butt.

Home video editing is not custom built apps.
Home audio editing is not custom built apps.
Graphics editing is not custom built apps.
Making business or greeting cards is not custom built apps.
Desktop publishing editing is not usually custom built apps.
Using digital modes is not custom built apps.
APRS is not custom built apps.
Packet radio is not custom built apps.
Rig Control is not custom built apps.

All can be accomplished using Linux based distributions, with quality applications.


All of which can be accomplished easily with Windows or Mac OSX, too. So hardly an argument in favor of switching to Linux. On second and third reads, I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make.


One thing Linux is very good at is staying out of the way.  If you're doing any serious coding, computational/modeling, scientific work, you want to OS to stay out of your way.  It's also good at being customizable. That's why you find it in a lot of arcane applications.

It's not very good at being compatible with the rest of the world with respect to hardware and consumer software.

I use Linux at work for computational/mathematical work. But when I need to prepare a word processing document or a spreadsheet or a slide presentation, I swing the chair around and use the Windows machine, or start up the MacBook Pro, and use MS Office.  





Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 09:30:08 AM

And, AGAIN, if Linux distros don't work for you, don't use them. . . . There's no need to spread innuendo, myths and lies.

If you had bothered to read the posts instead of mindlessly gut-reacting as you usually do, you would have seen that I AM a Linux user. I'm just not inclined to fall for the "innuendo, myths and lies" that you like to spout.
You are the one spreading "innuendo, myths and lies" .


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NN4RH on March 01, 2016, 09:39:43 AM
Phillips screw drivers are better than flat head screw drivers!

Proof:

NASA uses Phillips screwdrivers!
DOD uses Phillips screwdrivers!

There are Phillips screwdrivers on nuclear submarines and in the space station! They used Phillips Screwdrivers in the assembly of the Large Hadron Collider!

Bill's Auto Repair in Buzzard Flat  Idaho uses Phillips screwdrivers! 

These are just a small sampling of the thousands of places that use Phillips Screwdrivers!


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 09:41:22 AM
I think NN4RH sums it up well. You cannot equate specialized Linux use with custom built apps for it to home desktop usage yet many try to use it to save face in their pro Linux arguments.

Buy a clue. Get your head out of Microsoft’s butt.

Home video editing is not custom built apps.
Home audio editing is not custom built apps.
Graphics editing is not custom built apps.
Making business or greeting cards is not custom built apps.
Desktop publishing editing is not usually custom built apps.
Using digital modes is not custom built apps.
APRS is not custom built apps.
Packet radio is not custom built apps.
Rig Control is not custom built apps.

All can be accomplished using Linux based distributions, with quality applications.


All of which can be accomplished easily with Windows or Mac OSX, too. So hardly an argument in favor of switching to Linux.
I don't have to pay for the software upgrades. I don't have to worry about malware as much as Windows. I don't have to pay the higher prices for Mac. Your reasons for not switching to Linux distros from Windows would be the same for switching to MacOS.
On second and third reads, I'm not even sure what point you were trying to make.
A Linux based distro is more than adequate for many desktop users.
One thing Linux is very good at is staying out of the way.  If you're doing any serious coding, computational/modeling, scientific work, you want to OS to stay out of your way.  It's also good at being customizable. That's why you find it in a lot of arcane applications.

Yeah. Arcane applications. Uh huh.
It's not very good at being compatible with the rest of the world with respect to hardware and consumer software.
Actually, it is , depending on what you mean by "not very good".
I use Linux at work for computational/mathematical work. But when I need to prepare a word processing document or a spreadsheet or a slide presentation, I swing the chair around and use the Windows machine, or start up the MacBook Pro, and use MS Office.  
I used Linux distros a lot at work. When  I needed to prepare a word processing document or a spreadsheet or a slide presentation I often. stayed working within my distro.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 01, 2016, 09:42:21 AM
Phillips screw drivers are better than flat head screw drivers!

Proof:

NASA uses Phillips screwdrivers!
DOD uses Phillips screwdrivers!

There are Phillips screwdrivers on nuclear submarines and in the space station! They used Phillips Screwdrivers in the assembly of the Large Hadron Collider!

Bill's Auto Repair in Buzzard Flat  Idaho uses Phillips screwdrivers! 

These are just a small sampling of the thousands of places that use Phillips Screwdrivers!

Really? You are going to go with that?


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 03, 2016, 08:06:58 PM
I'm unclear why anyone would bother arguing any of this.

Microsoft Windows is a consumer OS. Designed for consumers. Yes you can drill down into it if you are a geek, engineer, scientist, or other interested party.

Linux is an unchained system. Not limited by general copyright other than various FOSS licenses. You have source code availability, unlimited ability to customize the function of the system, and the freedom to share those changes to the system with almost no limitations.

So in the case of using Linux: you must, as a condition of use, know what you are doing- assuming you want to accomplish anything. Or alternatively desire to become more than a "computer user" in the consumer sense of the term.

I wish people would stop trying to shoehorn Linux onto the desktop. Sure- there are places that use it in that manner. But really, most computer users will just find frustration.

Power users might find use for it. But most hams don't know or understand computers. So Linux is a bad idea for most hams.

That being said: It's not really a topic that needs to be debated with religious zeal :)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5TED on March 03, 2016, 08:29:46 PM
Personally, I prefer not to have to 'control' the PC at very turn. I just want the OS to work with me, running the programs that I select to run, automatically knowing what dependencies are required, what drivers are needed, and just taking care of all the background with the least amount of intervention and fiddling on my part.

Windows does that. Sometimes I have to point it to the correct driver. Otherwise, mostly smooth as silk

Linux DOES NOT. Mostly a pain in the butt to get to do anything, sudo this, sudo that, blah blah, apt-get install this , that, mkdir, bash, sheesh, what a load of BS.

I'm past the teenage experience of having to get under the hood and tweak the hot rod and make a trip to the parts store every time I want to go further than dragging Main St..

Yeah, I 'use' Linux to do specific tasks on barebones hardware. That's what it's good for. 

I don't have any embarrassing porn, extremist anarchist how-to's, or damning personal information to hide from the gummint or some wayward 'lil script kiddie looking for CC info. I don't keep that sort of thing on a PC and neither should you. Stupid you, if you choose to treat something connected to the Internet as a locked file cabinet.



To each his own..

  


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 03, 2016, 08:35:26 PM
I'm unclear why anyone would bother arguing any of this.

Microsoft Windows is a consumer OS. Designed for consumers. Yes you can drill down into it if you are a geek, engineer, scientist, or other interested party.

Linux is an unchained system. Not limited by general copyright other than various FOSS licenses. You have source code availability, unlimited ability to customize the function of the system, and the freedom to share those changes to the system with almost no limitations.

So in the case of using Linux: you must, as a condition of use, know what you are doing- assuming you want to accomplish anything. Or alternatively desire to become more than a "computer user" in the consumer sense of the term.

I wish people would stop trying to shoehorn Linux onto the desktop. Sure- there are places that use it in that manner. But really, most computer users will just find frustration.
Canonical, Red Hat and Novell seem to disagree with you.
Power users might find use for it. But most hams don't know or understand computers. So Linux is a bad idea for most hams.
And why is that? Installing modern Linux based distros is easy. There is plenty of amateur radio software that is easy to install and use.
That being said: It's not really a topic that needs to be debated with religious zeal :)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 03, 2016, 08:37:49 PM
Personally, I prefer not to have to 'control' the PC at very turn. I just want the OS to work with me, running the programs that I select to run, automatically knowing what dependencies are required, what drivers are needed, and just taking care of all the background with the least amount of intervention and fiddling on my part.

Windows does that. Sometimes I have to point it to the correct driver. Otherwise, mostly smooth as silk

Linux DOES NOT. Mostly a pain in the butt to get to do anything, sudo this, sudo that, blah blah, apt-get install this , that, mkdir, bash, sheesh, what a load of BS.
In a modern desktop distro, what requires sudo this, sudo that,  apt-get install this , that, mkdir, bash?
I'm past the teenage experience of having to get under the hood and tweak the hot rod and make a trip to the parts store every time I want to go further than dragging Main St..

Yeah, I 'use' Linux to do specific tasks on barebones hardware. That's what it's good for.  {/quote]
It is good for much more than that.
I don't have any embarrassing porn, extremist anarchist how-to's, or damning personal information to hide from the gummint or some wayward 'lil script kiddie looking for CC info. I don't keep that sort of thing on a PC and neither should you. Stupid you, if you choose to treat something connected to the Internet as a locked file cabinet.

To each his own..  
Sure.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5TED on March 03, 2016, 08:56:18 PM
Well, try to install RTL drivers, Dump1090 Mutability, SOCAT, Temp, and OpenSSH on Ubuntu, make it run headless without hanging at the grub, then come back and tell me how you did it all and configured then tweaked the operating parameters from the GUI without any command line intervention.

I'm waiting.

(with Win10, it's "download the Dump1090 .exe" run it, "Download the RTL driver, install", Download "SOCAT", run it, enable RDP, use Notepad to modify the batch files for Dump and SOCAT, start it all up in a batch file you created with Notepad, enjoy. No command line needed unless you are a glutton for remote access punishment and insist on using Powershell to do things all at once)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 03, 2016, 09:02:56 PM
I'm unclear why anyone would bother arguing any of this.

Microsoft Windows is a consumer OS. Designed for consumers. Yes you can drill down into it if you are a geek, engineer, scientist, or other interested party.

Linux is an unchained system. Not limited by general copyright other than various FOSS licenses. You have source code availability, unlimited ability to customize the function of the system, and the freedom to share those changes to the system with almost no limitations.

So in the case of using Linux: you must, as a condition of use, know what you are doing- assuming you want to accomplish anything. Or alternatively desire to become more than a "computer user" in the consumer sense of the term.

I wish people would stop trying to shoehorn Linux onto the desktop. Sure- there are places that use it in that manner. But really, most computer users will just find frustration.
Canonical, Red Hat and Novell seem to disagree with you.
Power users might find use for it. But most hams don't know or understand computers. So Linux is a bad idea for most hams.
And why is that? Installing modern Linux based distros is easy. There is plenty of amateur radio software that is easy to install and use.
That being said: It's not really a topic that needs to be debated with religious zeal :)

Whatever. Hold root on 100 boxen, then tell me your opinion.

Canonical, Red Hat and Novell *wish* they could get into the desktop market (in a meaningful way). But placing a Red Hat distro in front of a ham is going to be a joke because of the backport policy and the lack of the most up to date apps. Then when you want to compile cutting edge ham software- good luck with the dependencies.

Novell's Suse is garbage. Ubuntu is a joke as a server OS, but fairly user friendly on the desktop- sort of. Of course if you want to run it as a development box have a good time!

Out of all of those- I'd pick a Red Hat enterprise release- or CentOS (binary compatible). Additionally, source RPMs are easier to work with than a tarball. Or interestingly enough the "other package systems".

Linux is a bad platform for non computer hams. If you are using Linux successfully (in any application) your level of computer competency is well ahead of the general public. Which was my point. But you apparently cannot read.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 03, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Well, try to install RTL drivers, Dump1090 Mutability, SOCAT, Temp, and OpenSSH on Ubuntu, make it run headless without hanging at the grub, then come back and tell me how you did it all and configured then tweaked the operating parameters from the GUI without any command line intervention.

I'm waiting.


I charge $125.00 an hour for that information :)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5TED on March 03, 2016, 09:06:02 PM
Well, try to install RTL drivers, Dump1090 Mutability, SOCAT, Temp, and OpenSSH on Ubuntu, make it run headless without hanging at the grub, then come back and tell me how you did it all and configured then tweaked the operating parameters from the GUI without any command line intervention.

I'm waiting.


I charge $125.00 an hour for that information :)

I do it for fun. I suppose some like to play with the PC like they do the radio parts. It's all good.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 03, 2016, 09:08:43 PM
Well, try to install RTL drivers, Dump1090 Mutability, SOCAT, Temp, and OpenSSH on Ubuntu, make it run headless without hanging at the grub, then come back and tell me how you did it all and configured then tweaked the operating parameters from the GUI without any command line intervention.

I'm waiting.


I charge $125.00 an hour for that information :)

I do it for fun.

I can understand that. It is fun. But I'm a systems engineer. So I do it for money (and it's still fun).


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 04, 2016, 10:59:48 AM
Linux is a bad platform for non computer hams. If you are using Linux successfully (in any application) your level of computer competency is well ahead of the general public.

I'll have to pass this along to my 83-year-old mother-in-law who has been a Kubuntu user for the past year. On the most beautiful wide screen monitor I've ever seen (she's nearly blind).

I set it up, but she uses it every day. And has even changed a couple of things and updates it regularly (that is a pretty simple operation, actually). I live 200 miles away so I can't get there (and her ISP has her behind a NAT) so she's on her own for months at a time. (The other day she called me for help and it turned out someone had kicked the keyboard connector out of the computer... I told her to check and she was on Facebook clicking a "like" for a photo of her granddaughter 15 minutes later.)

Most people who fail at Linux are either incapable of forming a simple Google search term or so heavily wedded to applications or games available only on other operating systems that they cannot bring themselves to change. Whatever you want to do with Linux, someone else has already done it and their explanation of how to do it is out there, somewhere.

The difficulty of using Linux on the desktop is highly over-magnified.

I have used Linux as my sole desktop in a business environment every day since 1995. It is far simpler to use now than it's ever been. The only things that I can think of that it won't do are native MS Office macros in Libre Office... and some professional engineering CAD systems. (And when those go to their "pay by the month" versions I'm thinking that might change: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuEngineering,)

At one time I had to keep one Windows box for accounting and TurboTax; not because Linux accounting applications are bad (SQL-Ledger is amazing) but because most CPAs only understand Intuit products. But now that Intuit has cloud-based accounting I do my accounts on-line and turn the Windows box on only at tax time. One week a year. Soon that will end, too.

But I have to admit I have made a lot more money from WIndows than I ever have from Linux. Servers that work for years at a time don't add much to the cash flow. As a friend says, "Put Linux on a computer and eat for a day; put Windows on a computer and eat for years."



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on March 04, 2016, 05:00:03 PM
Linux is a bad platform for non computer hams. If you are using Linux successfully (in any application) your level of computer competency is well ahead of the general public. Which was my point. But you apparently cannot read.

No non-technical person should ever install and/or maintain any OS, be it Linux, Windows, OSX, or even MS-DOS, any more than a non-mechanic should work on a car.

But that doesn't mean that the average person can't learn to use it and run his/her favorite applications on it.  Grandma certainly can use Linux if it's configured in a way that's familiar (read:  Similar to WinXP or 7).  Installation and maintenance should be left to her retired-engineer or IT friend or 12-year-old grandson. ;D


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5UNX on March 04, 2016, 05:12:32 PM

At one time I had to keep one Windows box for accounting and TurboTax; not because Linux accounting applications are bad (SQL-Ledger is amazing) but because most CPAs only understand Intuit products. But now that Intuit has cloud-based accounting I do my accounts on-line and turn the Windows box on only at tax time. One week a year. Soon that will end, too.



I use Turbo Tax and have not installed any software in several years. It has been web based for a while now.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 04, 2016, 05:30:54 PM

At one time I had to keep one Windows box for accounting and TurboTax; not because Linux accounting applications are bad (SQL-Ledger is amazing) but because most CPAs only understand Intuit products. But now that Intuit has cloud-based accounting I do my accounts on-line and turn the Windows box on only at tax time. One week a year. Soon that will end, too.

I use Turbo Tax and have not installed any software in several years. It has been web based for a while now.

Not for corporations.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD3WB on March 05, 2016, 12:08:24 AM
I avoided Linux for years, mainly because it seemed like the only way to install was to burn the iso to a CD.  All my computers are used, either hand-me-downs, gifts or just bought that way and I'm not sure if any of them even have a CD drive that can do that.  Once it became possible to create a bootable Linux USB stick, it was a whole different story.  I tried Chromixium, now Cub Linux and was extremely impressed at how easily it installed and recognized the hardware.  Interesting that Linux can recognize Windows partitions, but not vice versa.  Even GRUB is impressive.  I have a second USB stick that I was struggling to make bootable and once GRUB was in control, I tried to boot from the stick and GRUB apparently diagnosed the problem and fixed it.  Windows is still my main operating system, but it's nice to have an alternative.  I started out in DOS, so using a terminal in Linux is like second nature.

Ben


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 12:29:50 AM
Linux is a bad platform for non computer hams. If you are using Linux successfully (in any application) your level of computer competency is well ahead of the general public. Which was my point. But you apparently cannot read.

No non-technical person should ever install and/or maintain any OS, be it Linux, Windows, OSX, or even MS-DOS, any more than a non-mechanic should work on a car.

But that doesn't mean that the average person can't learn to use it and run his/her favorite applications on it.  Grandma certainly can use Linux if it's configured in a way that's familiar (read:  Similar to WinXP or 7).  Installation and maintenance should be left to her retired-engineer or IT friend or 12-year-old grandson. ;D

Well this is a valid opinion, thought I personally disagree because we have a difference in perception of what end users need to do with their computers.

Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois :P


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: NA4IT on March 05, 2016, 04:23:34 AM
The original post stated a problem with running Ham Radio Deluxe on Linux. He's right there. However, there are many great piece of software for ham radio and Linux that DO compare to the Windoze stuff. The only thing I know of you can't do on Linux is WinStink (WINLINK). The Winlink folks just simply won't allow anyone to write a Linux client for it. They refuse to offer any help what so ever.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W2BLC on March 05, 2016, 05:10:52 AM
Using TurboTax online worries me from a security standpoint. It is already bad enough with E-File, online just adds more exposure. To say nothing of IRS getting hacked also.

Bill W2BLC


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 05, 2016, 11:42:21 AM
Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance......
.....to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Post after post telling ham radio operators that they're too stupid to learn Linux... hams are "regular people" who are "non-savvy" when it comes to computers. And to imply otherwise is "religiosity".

So, essentially, you are hopeless if you want to try to learn what is, essentially, the computer version of amateur radio. Because Linux is so completely configurable - but so complicated - that you'd have to be as smart as KD8TUT to do it.

That's what his argument boils down to. "Your not as smart as me so don't even try."

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.....

.....And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

And it sounds to me that even KD8TUT has issues. (By the way, XP didn't have "homegroup" either). He has clearly not figured out the installation software that the rest of us Linux users find pretty simple. I mean, how hard is it to type "apt-get install fldigi"? So, if you can't do that, you are not as smart as he is.

Are there technical issues with Linux? Sure. There are technical issues with Windows, too. And Macs. Seems to me that if you can pass an FCC test and figure out antennas and bandwidth and digital modes and all you could at least do as well as KD8TUT.

And if, by some miracle, you are as smart as he is then learning Linux opens up a whole new world of computers including Raspberry Pi micro-computers with complete operating systems for under $70 that can be mated with WSPR accessories from TAPR for $29.

But, if you are a non-savvy sort of person you probably shouldn't even try.






Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 05, 2016, 01:15:57 PM
... Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. ...

Yeah, it sure is. Just look at how unbelievably difficult it is to install this ham radio software in Linux:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/linux-mint-and-fldigi.501458/page-3#post-3707712

I'll bet that at least 50% of the people who had to go through that traumatizing experience suffered complete nervous breakdowns! ;-)



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on March 05, 2016, 03:53:15 PM
Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Likely impossible, given that computing devices have to be 100% customizable for each user.  Besides, if somebody brings us a foolproof computer, somebody else will bring us a bigger and better fool. ;D

Quote
Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

There are two problems here.  (1) Most people are not willing to learn anything more than the basics, and (2) the economic ecosystem is set up so that it costs money to fix a broken PC (Geek Squad, etc., as well as a lot of overpaid consultants).  Many many people earn their living from the average person monkeying where they shouldn't be monkeying, as well as legitimate issues like broken hardware, failed upgrades, viruses (almost unheard of outside of Windows), etc.  Breakage is far more possible on a Windows system than on OSX or Linux.

And BTW, anyone who's smart enough to earn a ham ticket can become at least reasonably computer-savvy.  Linux isn't that difficult to learn.  Few need to be "gurus," but there's no reason not to learn the basic commands, GUIs, software, utilities, and the like.  If one can pass the Technician Class exam, one can learn a computer operating system.

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

Bologna.  The GUIs for Debian-based systems (Debian, Mint, & Ubuntu using apt-get) are almost foolproof.  I can't speak for RPM/yum because I haven't used Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora or SuSE in years, but I never had issues when I did use them.  The average person doesn't use Slackware, Arch, and the like, nor do they compile their own software, so those are a moot point in this conversation.

Quote
But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

That was kind of my point.  Somebody will have to maintain the PC for Grandma, regardless of the OS she's using.  But those of us in the Ham community should be capable of doing this ourselves.

Quote
Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

I'm sure there are quite a few who have.  There are probably lots of grandmas who are smart enough to install anti-virus software in Windows, too.

Quote
And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

NFS is a piece of cake.  It's all I've ever used.  Tools exist to mount NFS shares on OSX.  AFAIK, only Win10 Ultimate supports it, and I can't find a 3rd party client yet for 10 Pro.  One article I read on a Microsoft site said that NFS was available in Win7 and Server 2008, but not since.  Oh, well -- I'll have to stick with Mint on my laptop.  Windows isn't up to the job. ;)

Quote
These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

I still wouldn't trust Windows with anything requiring security.  Even though I turned off every "phone-home feature" I could find on my Win10 Pro laptop, I still see activity going back to either Microsoft or elsewhere.  I use Mint 17.3 on that machine 99% of the time, mainly for that reason.

Quote
Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

There are very few devices that Linux doesn't have a kernel module (driver) for anymore.  The BSDs are another story, but I understand they're getting better.  The touchscreen on my laptop doesn't work under Mint, but I don't care about that and never tried to find a driver for it.

Quote
That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

"Even" for desktop use?  Again, it all depends on the application software one needs/wants to use.  I've used Linux on my desktops since 1998, back in the bad old days of the 2.0 kernel, dial-up internet, and 800x600 graphics.  I make sure that all software I use is cross-platform, including being available on OS X for my Mac.  But some specialized software isn't, and never will be, such as AutoCAD, QuickBooks, and TurboTax.  For those, you use Windows.  That's the way it goes.

Quote
But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Windows isn't "tailored for non savvy computer people."  It's tailored to maximize revenue for Microsoft.  Microsoft is a for-profit business that is beholden to its stockholders, traded on a stock exchange.  And that's fine as far as it goes, but user-friendliness, reliability, and security are not Job One.  Profitability is.  

Linux distributions don't help themselves in that the companies that own them are completely clueless when it comes to marketing their products.

Quote
Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois :P

Pot, meet kettle, dude.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5PHW on March 05, 2016, 04:01:02 PM
 I thought MCIBTY died long ago.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 05, 2016, 04:04:40 PM
I thought MCIBTY died long ago. 

That was before paid M$ shills.  ;D


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on March 05, 2016, 04:50:37 PM
I avoided Linux for years, mainly because it seemed like the only way to install was to burn the iso to a CD.

Unetbootin will not only download and burn Linux distros to a USB drive, but will also burn an ISO image you downloaded earlier.  Works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

http://unetbootin.github.io/

I do keep a portable DVD/CD drive around, though.  I still have a lot of music CDs to rip.  None of my current machines have a DVD drive built in.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 05:38:20 PM
Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance......
.....to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Post after post telling ham radio operators that they're too stupid to learn Linux... hams are "regular people" who are "non-savvy" when it comes to computers. And to imply otherwise is "religiosity".

So, essentially, you are hopeless if you want to try to learn what is, essentially, the computer version of amateur radio. Because Linux is so completely configurable - but so complicated - that you'd have to be as smart as KD8TUT to do it.

That's what his argument boils down to. "Your not as smart as me so don't even try."

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.....

.....And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

And it sounds to me that even KD8TUT has issues. (By the way, XP didn't have "homegroup" either). He has clearly not figured out the installation software that the rest of us Linux users find pretty simple. I mean, how hard is it to type "apt-get install fldigi"? So, if you can't do that, you are not as smart as he is.

Are there technical issues with Linux? Sure. There are technical issues with Windows, too. And Macs. Seems to me that if you can pass an FCC test and figure out antennas and bandwidth and digital modes and all you could at least do as well as KD8TUT.

And if, by some miracle, you are as smart as he is then learning Linux opens up a whole new world of computers including Raspberry Pi micro-computers with complete operating systems for under $70 that can be mated with WSPR accessories from TAPR for $29.

But, if you are a non-savvy sort of person you probably shouldn't even try.


Your commentary is pretty useless, misses the point, or is just a troll. I get it.

I've actually written and contributed open source code, which you might actually be running.

It's a very enjoyable feeling to know that.

Be well.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 05:39:28 PM
Computers for regular people really need to be a fool proof appliance.

Likely impossible, given that computing devices have to be 100% customizable for each user.  Besides, if somebody brings us a foolproof computer, somebody else will bring us a bigger and better fool. ;D

Quote
Computers in general have trended towards that goal since the Apple I. It's driven by the fact that the largest section of the marketplace is not capable (or willing?) to learn the complexities of computing.

There are two problems here.  (1) Most people are not willing to learn anything more than the basics, and (2) the economic ecosystem is set up so that it costs money to fix a broken PC (Geek Squad, etc., as well as a lot of overpaid consultants).  Many many people earn their living from the average person monkeying where they shouldn't be monkeying, as well as legitimate issues like broken hardware, failed upgrades, viruses (almost unheard of outside of Windows), etc.  Breakage is far more possible on a Windows system than on OSX or Linux.

And BTW, anyone who's smart enough to earn a ham ticket can become at least reasonably computer-savvy.  Linux isn't that difficult to learn.  Few need to be "gurus," but there's no reason not to learn the basic commands, GUIs, software, utilities, and the like.  If one can pass the Technician Class exam, one can learn a computer operating system.

Quote
Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. Some software exists for some distributions while not being available on others. The installation systems (rpm, apt-get, yum, dpkg, and all the semi shoddy GUI software that sits on those base utilities) are appropriate for IT people or hobby users.

Bologna.  The GUIs for Debian-based systems (Debian, Mint, & Ubuntu using apt-get) are almost foolproof.  I can't speak for RPM/yum because I haven't used Red Hat/CentOS/Fedora or SuSE in years, but I never had issues when I did use them.  The average person doesn't use Slackware, Arch, and the like, nor do they compile their own software, so those are a moot point in this conversation.

Quote
But not grandma. You can set it up for grandma... she can surf the web and get her e-mail or run open office. But beyond that she's probably sol.

That was kind of my point.  Somebody will have to maintain the PC for Grandma, regardless of the OS she's using.  But those of us in the Ham community should be capable of doing this ourselves.

Quote
Of course it may be true that grandma is a very smart inquisitive person who will actually learn Linux. But she would be exceptional in that regard.

I'm sure there are quite a few who have.  There are probably lots of grandmas who are smart enough to install anti-virus software in Windows, too.

Quote
And God help you if you want to set up a little network under Linux. There's no homegroup. Sure you can run samba.... good luck with that.

I'm pretty sure grandma also would not be comfortable with configuring nfs in order to avoid samba.

NFS is a piece of cake.  It's all I've ever used.  Tools exist to mount NFS shares on OSX.  AFAIK, only Win10 Ultimate supports it, and I can't find a 3rd party client yet for 10 Pro.  One article I read on a Microsoft site said that NFS was available in Win7 and Server 2008, but not since.  Oh, well -- I'll have to stick with Mint on my laptop.  Windows isn't up to the job. ;)

Quote
These are simple things which you can accomplish under windows or macos with little worry. And it;s the tip of the iceberg.

I still wouldn't trust Windows with anything requiring security.  Even though I turned off every "phone-home feature" I could find on my Win10 Pro laptop, I still see activity going back to either Microsoft or elsewhere.  I use Mint 17.3 on that machine 99% of the time, mainly for that reason.

Quote
Add in hardware compatibility/availablity for what consumers want to do... good luck with that too.

There are very few devices that Linux doesn't have a kernel module (driver) for anymore.  The BSDs are another story, but I understand they're getting better.  The touchscreen on my laptop doesn't work under Mint, but I don't care about that and never tried to find a driver for it.

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That being said, Linux is a very stable, powerful, and useful operating system- even for desktop use.

"Even" for desktop use?  Again, it all depends on the application software one needs/wants to use.  I've used Linux on my desktops since 1998, back in the bad old days of the 2.0 kernel, dial-up internet, and 800x600 graphics.  I make sure that all software I use is cross-platform, including being available on OS X for my Mac.  But some specialized software isn't, and never will be, such as AutoCAD, QuickBooks, and TurboTax.  For those, you use Windows.  That's the way it goes.

Quote
But to insist that it can replace operating systems tailored non savvy computer people- is a form of bias and technical religiosity which bends reality.

Windows isn't "tailored for non savvy computer people."  It's tailored to maximize revenue for Microsoft.  Microsoft is a for-profit business that is beholden to its stockholders, traded on a stock exchange.  And that's fine as far as it goes, but user-friendliness, reliability, and security are not Job One.  Profitability is.  

Linux distributions don't help themselves in that the companies that own them are completely clueless when it comes to marketing their products.

Quote
Operating systems are tools. So are fanbois :P

Pot, meet kettle, dude.

Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 05:42:17 PM
... Linux isn't there yet. Installing software is a pain. ...

Yeah, it sure is. Just look at how unbelievably difficult it is to install this ham radio software in Linux:

http://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/linux-mint-and-fldigi.501458/page-3#post-3707712

I'll bet that at least 50% of the people who had to go through that traumatizing experience suffered complete nervous breakdowns! ;-)



Or you could have interpreted my posts correctly in that people who were able to use Linux effectively were exceptional compared to the general public. This group includes hams that are computer savvy.

But no... you'd rather take stuff out of context and try to make a cheap shot stick.

Zero respect for that.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on March 05, 2016, 05:55:15 PM
Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.

Lighten up, Francis!

I mean, WTF?  Is W8JX on vacation and you're taking his place as eHam's resident Microsoft apologist for a couple of weeks?

Oh, and BTW, where am I wrong?  I'm not looking for an argument.  Anything you think I erred on, please let me know.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 06:07:08 PM
Sheer argument for argument's sake. Whatever.

Lighten up, Francis!

I mean, WTF?  Is W8JX on vacation and you're taking his place as eHam's resident Microsoft apologist for a couple of weeks?

Oh, and BTW, where am I wrong?  I'm not looking for an argument.  Anything you think I erred on, please let me know.

I hate Microsoft. Almost everything serious I run is Linux... Christ!!

Where did you get the idea I liked Microsoft?

That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 06:15:10 PM

Oh, and BTW, where am I wrong?  I'm not looking for an argument.  Anything you think I erred on, please let me know.

It's a nit picky list. But if you go over my posts you'll see in some areas we're saying the same things different ways.

Still chuckling over being a Microsoft apologist... that is really funny. And it's even funnier since I spent 6 years as a systems engineer at Apple- followed by 15 years deploying Linux.

Thanks for being cool.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 05, 2016, 06:16:49 PM
Gentlemen,

I think you are wasting your time here arguing about Windows vs. Linux. Read this and see if the course of wisdom might be to just stop feeding the shills/trolls/know-it-alls/whatever-the-case-may-be. :-)

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=active&site=&source=hp&q=microsoft+paid+shills

(http://www.w0btu.com/images/share/Google_search-ms-paid-shills.png)

Decide for yourself.  :)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: WW7KE on March 05, 2016, 06:27:17 PM
I hate Microsoft. Almost everything serious I run is Linux... Christ!!

Where did you get the idea I liked Microsoft?

That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.

OK, fair enough.  I misunderstood you and I apologize for that. 

But I still disagree that Linux would be that hard for most hams.  By definition we've had at least some kind of technical training in order to get a license.  Even though computers and RF are different disciplines, I don't think it'd be that difficult for most of us.  Being a guru isn't necessary, but learning the basics of using an OS -- any OS -- to do what you want, is.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 05, 2016, 06:33:02 PM
That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.

And only guys like you have that competency. If you don't already have it, don't try Linux.

But, that's Catch-22. Because it's hard to get that level of competency demanded from Linux until you dive in and start using it. Once you do that an entirely new world of what you can do with a computer opens up.

So stop telling them not to...


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 06:35:07 PM
I hate Microsoft. Almost everything serious I run is Linux... Christ!!

Where did you get the idea I liked Microsoft?

That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.

OK, fair enough.  I misunderstood you and I apologize for that. 

But I still disagree that Linux would be that hard for most hams.  By definition we've had at least some kind of technical training in order to get a license.  Even though computers and RF are different disciplines, I don't think it'd be that difficult for most of us.  Being a guru isn't necessary, but learning the basics of using an OS -- any OS -- to do what you want, is.

Yes... perhaps

I don't know if it's hard for most hams. It's my profession so it's easy at this point.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 06:40:36 PM
That's not the point. The point is that taking a ham and giving him Linux is a bad idea if that ham is not computer savvy.

That's it. Linux demands a higher level of competency.

And only guys like you have that competency. If you don't already have it, don't try Linux.

But, that's Catch-22. Because it's hard to get that level of competency demanded from Linux until you dive in and start using it. Once you do that an entirely new world of what you can do with a computer opens up.

So stop telling them not to...


Nowhere did I say they shouldn't.

Linux is not the place to start using and managing computers. It's just not. If you do it, more than likely you'll be putting some poor soul through a heck of a time, when a cheap used windows box would give them the basic skills without the esoteric skills you need on a *nix system.

Also... if they start on what most people use- they will better appreciate Linux when they have transitioned in the future.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 06:42:14 PM
Gentlemen,

I think you are wasting your time here arguing about Windows vs. Linux. Read this and see if the course of wisdom might be to just stop feeding the shills/trolls/know-it-alls/whatever-the-case-may-be. :-)

https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1&safe=active&site=&source=hp&q=microsoft+paid+shills

(http://www.w0btu.com/images/share/Google_search-ms-paid-shills.png)

Decide for yourself.  :)

Are you claiming I work for Microsoft?

I'd consider that slanderous.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 05, 2016, 09:11:15 PM
Nowhere did I say they shouldn't.
EVERYWHERE YOU HAVE SAID THAT THEY SHOULDN'T!

Quote
Linux is not the place to start using and managing computers. It's just not. If you do it, more than likely you'll be putting some poor soul through a heck of a time, when a cheap used windows box would give them the basic skills without the esoteric skills you need on a *nix system.
You are posting on a "computers and software" forum on a website dedicated to amateur radio. Who did you think you were talking to? Toddlers? Geriatrics?

Your arrogance is staggering.  
Quote

Also... if they start on what most people use- they will better appreciate Linux when they have transitioned in the future.

I've got news for you, Sherlock, virtually the entire world is now using "what most people use". The original post said that the ham was going back to Windows.

And your post after post was to not try Linux because it's just tooooo harrrrrd.

You still can't see it.

Hopeless.

If you're not a paid shill for Windows then you are missing out on a revenue stream.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 05, 2016, 10:57:57 PM
Nowhere did I say they shouldn't.
EVERYWHERE YOU HAVE SAID THAT THEY SHOULDN'T!

Quote
Linux is not the place to start using and managing computers. It's just not. If you do it, more than likely you'll be putting some poor soul through a heck of a time, when a cheap used windows box would give them the basic skills without the esoteric skills you need on a *nix system.
You are posting on a "computers and software" forum on a website dedicated to amateur radio. Who did you think you were talking to? Toddlers? Geriatrics?

Your arrogance is staggering.  
Quote

Also... if they start on what most people use- they will better appreciate Linux when they have transitioned in the future.

I've got news for you, Sherlock, virtually the entire world is now using "what most people use". The original post said that the ham was going back to Windows.

And your post after post was to not try Linux because it's just tooooo harrrrrd.

You still can't see it.

Hopeless.

If you're not a paid shill for Windows then you are missing out on a revenue stream.



I think you are really over reacting to what you *think* I said.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: AC7CW on March 06, 2016, 12:18:20 PM
Ham stuff is so backward! I'm re-entering the hobby and seeing lots of references to Serial Ports! That s%^t has been so gone for so long but here it still is... Touch screen Windows software for hams? Haven't run across any but I might not even know if I did because I don't have a touchscreen computer. So whatever, go with linux if you want. Probably the guys that like to build gear are ok with linux because they like to spend time with stuff and feel like they know how it works. Appliance ops are going to want Windows and I'm surprised they aren't clamoring for touchscreen apps. The newer radios from the Big 3 have some touchscreens I guess. I have affinity for Android apps on my 10.4" tablet though many are so drab and not using the tablet's capabilities that they could be on linux and I wouldn't know the diff...

Disclaimer: I'm more of an appliance operator when it comes to computers. I value aesthetics much more than the typical ham seems to.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 06, 2016, 12:25:29 PM

Disclaimer: I'm more of an appliance operator when it comes to computers. I value aesthetics much more than the typical ham seems to.

If you are the artistic type then you should take a closer look at Linux. The ability to completely configure a desktop to adapt to your own individualistic taste is unrivaled.

Take the Graphical User Interface known as KDE, for instance. You are not restricted to where you put your icons or what "wallpaper" you use. You can redesign your own GUI from scratch.

Just as a short primer: http://kde-look.org/

Nothing says you can't be an appliance operator on Linux. But you can also make your own appliance.

Google "linux themes" or "linux look and feel" for more information. Lots more. :)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD8TUT on March 06, 2016, 03:35:44 PM
Ham stuff is so backward! I'm re-entering the hobby and seeing lots of references to Serial Ports! That s%^t has been so gone for so long but here it still is... Touch screen Windows software for hams? Haven't run across any but I might not even know if I did because I don't have a touchscreen computer. So whatever, go with linux if you want. Probably the guys that like to build gear are ok with linux because they like to spend time with stuff and feel like they know how it works. Appliance ops are going to want Windows and I'm surprised they aren't clamoring for touchscreen apps. The newer radios from the Big 3 have some touchscreens I guess. I have affinity for Android apps on my 10.4" tablet though many are so drab and not using the tablet's capabilities that they could be on linux and I wouldn't know the diff...

Disclaimer: I'm more of an appliance operator when it comes to computers. I value aesthetics much more than the typical ham seems to.

Android is essentially Linux based. So you're using a very refined version of Linux.

You could consider a Macintosh. Out of the box it has better sound/streaming/authoring support than Windows. There's also a decent set of ham software out there for it (though I cannot comment on quality since I've not used any of them).

It's more expensive than a PC regardless of operating system. At the same time it's a machine that can run Mac OS, Windows, and Linux.

And Mac OS probably the most polished operating system currently available.

Might be something to think about.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD3WB on March 06, 2016, 03:54:30 PM
I avoided Linux for years, mainly because it seemed like the only way to install was to burn the iso to a CD.

Unetbootin will not only download and burn Linux distros to a USB drive, but will also burn an ISO image you downloaded earlier.  Works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.

http://unetbootin.github.io/

I do keep a portable DVD/CD drive around, though.  I still have a lot of music CDs to rip.  None of my current machines have a DVD drive built in.



I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.  I bought a rewritable CD about ten years ago and still haven't used it.  I'm still trying to find a Linux distro for my old Compaq Armada 3500 laptop.

Ben


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KK4GGL on March 06, 2016, 03:59:50 PM
Well, try to install RTL drivers, Dump1090 Mutability, SOCAT, Temp, and OpenSSH on Ubuntu, make it run headless without hanging at the grub, then come back and tell me how you did it all and configured then tweaked the operating parameters from the GUI without any command line intervention.

I'm waiting.

(with Win10, it's "download the Dump1090 .exe" run it, "Download the RTL driver, install", Download "SOCAT", run it, enable RDP, use Notepad to modify the batch files for Dump and SOCAT, start it all up in a batch file you created with Notepad, enjoy. No command line needed unless you are a glutton for remote access punishment and insist on using Powershell to do things all at once)

How much of the above is used by "the average user"?

Make  batchfiles with Notepad? Really? But you balk at a command line?
Installation
RTL drivers -
opensuse: YAST -> Software Management -> Search rtl -> click rtlsdr -> Accept (generally installed installing system if needed)
Debian: Synaptic -> Search rtl -> click firmware realtek -> Apply (generally installed during system installation if necessary

Dump1090
opensuse: YAST -> Software Management -> Search dump1090 -> click dump1090 -> Accept

SOCAT:
opensuse: YAST -> Software Management -> socat -> click socat -> Accept
 Synaptic -> Search socat -> click socat -> Apply

openssh
opensuse - YAST -> Software Management -> search openssh -> click openssh -> Accept
Debian Synaptic -> Search openssh -> click openssh-client, openssh-server -> Apply

remote desktop
opensuse - YAST -> Software Management -> search remote desktop -> click whatever package -> Accept

As for which  services start:
YAST -> Services Manager

You can configure almost anything from YAST. Since I don't use Ubuntu, I don't know much about it. For GUI software installation , on Debian, I generally use Synaptic and for GUI configuration, I generally use Webmin. I have not run a headless server in a long time. I know two sight impaired guys (one fully blind, one with almost no vision) that run a few headless servers each, Vinix and gentoo respectively.

And, AGAIN, what does all this have to do with an "average user's" desktop (whatever that is)?


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 06, 2016, 04:02:20 PM
I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.

Why would downloading an ISO and burning it to CDs (later, DVDs) discourage anyone? I've mostly done it that way for years, and so have countless others.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD3WB on March 06, 2016, 04:34:06 PM
I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.

Why would downloading an ISO and burning it to CDs (later, DVDs) discourage anyone? I've mostly done it that way for years, and so have countless others.

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

Ben


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K5TED on March 06, 2016, 05:54:21 PM
I still wonder how many potential Linux users were discouraged by the CD burning issue.

Why would downloading an ISO and burning it to CDs (later, DVDs) discourage anyone? I've mostly done it that way for years, and so have countless others.

My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

Ben

Booting from Linux hasn't been difficult from some time. I've used 'Puppy' Linux from a CD a number of times to have an environment with pre-loaded and configured ham apps. From a CD.

Knoppix Linux is an OLD method of booting to a Linux environment to fix things. All from CD.

I just last week built a couple of Ubuntu machines using a bootable installer from a USB stick, but it could have been as well from a DVD.

Is it my preference for everyday use? No. Is it easy to install? Yes.

If you ever inserted a Windows build CD in your drive and installed the OS, then you have 'booted' from a CD or DVD.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 06, 2016, 10:00:21 PM
My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

I bought complete SuSE installation sets before the 'net was fast enough to do a download. They came with 7 or 8 floppy disks and, later, CDs. Exactly like Windows installation disks. Put 'em into an appropriate drive, tell the BIOS to boot from that drive, and off you go. They would install typical workstations, servers, or barebones systems. And they would detect Windows and re-size your hard drive's partitions so you could dual boot.

Local computer shops gave away CDs with various installs of Linux.

Ubuntu would send you CDs and DVDs for the price of the disks

USB installs are relatively new.

If you had even once installed Windows prior to about 2010 you would have booted your computer off of a drive; floppy, CD or DVD. Often just to update the OS. Computers from Dell, Compaq and HP would come with installation disks.

Just like Linux. Except that, often, Linux was faster and more intuitive.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KC7KLZ on March 07, 2016, 01:49:17 PM
Windows, Linux, OSX.... It is an interesting dilemma.  I think you need to look at what you want, need, and what headaches are you willing to put up with.  I was a Windows person for years.  About 5 years ago I found myself in a situation where I had a computer without an OS.  (Long story.)  At that time, I did not have the Do-Ray-MI to purchase a copy of Windows.  A friend of mine had been pestering me for some time to get a Linux box going.  I downloaded a copy of Ubuntu, and installed it.  During the process, I found that Google was my friend, and that with a little time an effort, I was able to get it going and do what I needed the computer to do. 

Last year, I ponied up the Do-Ray-MI and purchased a sweet laptop.  I have Windows 10 on it.  I thought about putting HRD on it, but I can't justify it to myself, spending the Do-Ray-MI on it. 

My point is if you want to work at it, you can get anything you want working.  I've had just as many headaches on my Windows 10 machine as I have on my Linux box.  I comes down to what headaches do you want to deal with.

'73

Eric Scott
VE7KLZ\ KC7KLZ   


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KD3WB on March 07, 2016, 02:32:32 PM
My point is that installing Linux was difficult before USB.  Windows 95 and 98 had a "setup.exe" executable and later versions used "winnt32.exe".  I've never even once booted any of my computers from a CD drive. 

I bought complete SuSE installation sets before the 'net was fast enough to do a download. They came with 7 or 8 floppy disks and, later, CDs. Exactly like Windows installation disks. Put 'em into an appropriate drive, tell the BIOS to boot from that drive, and off you go. They would install typical workstations, servers, or barebones systems. And they would detect Windows and re-size your hard drive's partitions so you could dual boot.

I've never bought an operating system and I don't own a Windows installation disk.

Quote

Local computer shops gave away CDs with various installs of Linux.

I've never been to a computer shop, other than having a friend who ran one.

Quote

Ubuntu would send you CDs and DVDs for the price of the disks

Sounds gracious.  Wonder why someone didn't just write a small Windows executable that would download and install the OS.

Quote
USB installs are relatively new.

The ultimate irony is that Microsoft actually helped me with this.  I found out about the Windows 10 preview, and one way to do it was to put it on a USB stick and boot from it.  I eventually realized that my computer is too old for it, but I also realized that I could do the same with Linux.  The only reason I picked Chromixium is that I was already using Google's Chrome browser.

Quote
If you had even once installed Windows prior to about 2010 you would have booted your computer off of a drive; floppy, CD or DVD. Often just to update the OS. Computers from Dell, Compaq and HP would come with installation disks.

Never a CD or DVD, but plenty of floppies, including 5 1/4 inch ones.  And I've installed Windows plenty of times.  My point is that there was always a "setup.exe" or "winnt32.exe" to run, and I didn't have to download an iso file and burn it to a CD.

Quote
Just like Linux. Except that, often, Linux was faster and more intuitive.

The Chromixium install was easier and faster than most, if not all, of my Windows installs.   

Ben


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: KOP on March 07, 2016, 04:28:57 PM
First I have to admit a bias .

OS: Linux 3.13.0-58-generic/i686 - Distro: Ubuntu 14.04.4 LTS - CPU: 4 x Intel Xeon (3000.000 MHz) - Processes: 217 - Uptime: 6d 22h 24m - Users: 2 - Load Average: 2.57 - Memory Usage: 2425.04MB/16191.26MB (14.98%) - Disk Usage: 400.57GB/1838.80GB (21.78%)

I am not your average anything let alone average computer user .
I operate a small cluster , several "workstations" not to be confused with "desktops". I have several machines loaded with up to 32g of memory and 8 cores @ 3000mhz plus .

I also use several Panasonic Toughbooks
Hostname: kop-CF-30CQQACBM - OS: Linux 3.11.0-12-generic/i686 - Distro: Linux Mint 16 Petra - CPU: 2 x Intel Core Duo (1600.000 MHz) - Processes: 167 - Uptime: 16h 35m - Users: 3 - Load Average: 0.45 - Memory Usage: 670.86MB/992.74MB (67.58%) - Disk Usage: 4.09GB/72.73GB (5.62%)

The Toughbooks often have a choice of up to 8 virtual machines and in some cases multiple boot options .

Even I can't get completely away from M$ . I have had to use dual boot and virtual machines to use the few proprietary M$ tools I can't emulate with Wine or make work in *nix . If I had my way I'd never see let alone use another M$ product for the rest of my days . My bias has nothing to do with the obvious reasons the general public has for avoidance of M$ products such as cost of license and OS or the apparent monopoly . It has to do with invasive technologies included with the OS that ignore personal privacy based on a misplaced "it's for the users own good" .

I had a difficult time moving to *nix as it was done all at once and with minimal command line experience . Over the last 17 years I've gradually learned to live with my decision . I won't debate what is best for the OP , the previous post or anyone that cares to read this . I'll just say get your head out of the sand and actually examine what your operating system is sending home to mother . Just quit being sheeple and get a clue .

~kop  


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 08, 2016, 09:11:07 AM
I had a difficult time moving to *nix as it was done all at once and with minimal command line experience . Over the last 17 years I've gradually learned to live with my decision . I won't debate what is best for the OP , the previous post or anyone that cares to read this . I'll just say get your head out of the sand and actually examine what your operating is sending home to mother . Just quit being sheeple and get a clue .

~kop  

Unix was my first operating system and I was pretty much "thrown to the wolves" when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. Exxon's ships at the time (late 1970s) used a Unix system with terminals for the RO, the Captain, Ch. Mate, Ch. Engr, and engine room. The officer in charge of the system was the Radio Officer. All done from the command line with the root password the same for all ships. No Internet and a huge set of manuals.

But after using an operating system that could have mulitple people logged on doing multiple things at the same time I was introduced to MSDOS by one of the crew who brought aboard a Compaq "luggable". I wasn't all that impressed. However since Unix at home costs in the thousands of dollars for just the license to the OS, I bought a PC and used MSDOS. And while MSDOS worked pretty well, I was used to multiuser/multiprocessing operating systems and was very disappointed in DOS because, if you needed something from one app to use in the app you had on line, you had to save the one on line, quite it, start the other app, get the data you needed, make a note, quit THAT app, and restart the first app and get to where you had been to put it in. That was a real PITA.

Then I discovered Desqview!

Aboard a ship I could have an old Zenith Z100 laptop with Desqview operating with MSDOS and could run a weather fax application, an app for notes, and a spreadsheet (Lotus 123) all at the same time. And copy data from one app to another.

Even so, nothing, however, beat Unix. I tried Minix and bught a copy of Coherant and even found a cheap set of disks for Xenix (sold, ironically enough, by Microsoft) at a used computer place in Bellevue. I installed Xenix at a local business with ten terminals for their sales staff loaded with a database application. They used that system until they went out of business 15 years later.

But when Linux Torvalds released Linux I knew, once I tried it, that it would be the choice for me. The first "distro" I tried was Yggdrasil followed by Slackware and then SuSE. By the time they had released v1.13 I was already installing Linux as email servers, web servers and routers at schools and businesses in the area and being admin at an early ISP (1995).

So no one HAS to have "computer savvy" to start with Linux. It's like everything else in ham radio. Most of the time you learn it yourself.

Between Linux and CW I have made a lot of money. Most Linux professionals are self-taught because few Universities teach it to any depth (with some notable exceptions). But if you are competent with Linux - and especially Centos/RHEL, you can pull down salaries in the six figures.

Without a college degree.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: AC7CW on March 08, 2016, 12:46:23 PM
I remember when I first heard of Linux. Engineers were working on it. They had access to very expensive CAD software packages that ran on UNIX at their workplace. They wanted a system to run said software at home and that motivated them.

I'm not infected with OS religion that much, I've worked with UNIX until my fingers knew what to type but I couldn't explain to anybody else without typing! [true story]. I had a Radio Shack Model 4 that ran on what, I can't recall, it did have a fantastic version of Basic. That Basic was so good that I dug through the source code for a clue as to who wrote it and found "Microsoft". I recall thinking "what a clever name for some software developers" but didn't think to buy the stock when they went public. I had some kind of an experimenters computer that programmed in a sort of an assembly language, can't recall the name of it though. I had to use DOS when pc's became the workplace standard in engineering labs, then Win 3.1 and so on and actually, the last OS I was introduced to was Linux.

For something of limited focus and high security [as in financial] i'd go with Linux but my programming environment doesn't natively run on it. They have promised for two years and put it off another year again... This software was useless due to problems with fonts when running on WINE. Thus is the neverending disappointment of the world of Linux where much is promised and not enough of use is delivered, not to mention the tedious work of typing so much stuff and all the while trying to get help from the zillion introvert experts on the forums that have no intention of helping anybody while displaying great pretense to do so...

For web surfing and document production, I'm leaning towards a touchscreen Win10 machine. I have a Win7 laptop for that currently, and a wonderful 10" Samsung tablet too. I've got the love/hate thing going with touchscreens via tablet and iPhone but a touchscreen-keyboard combo might make me happy, real happy actually.

I like Apple for a phone. I was an Android user for a few years, it's good, maybe, not great by a long shot. Anybody with $25 can sell software and nobody checks how it works or how it interacts with other software. Some of it works until you really need it of course...

Apple doesn't have a touchscreen computer so far, right? They seem to be developing an automobile, maybe they see their computer business dwindling...



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 08, 2016, 12:55:43 PM
... when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. ...

Thanks for sharing this experience! It brought back many good memories. I loved Desqview.

I knew an Exxon radio officer (Vern?) who worked on the Exxon Valdez and the Exxon Mediterranean oil tankers in the '90s. He was a ham, but I forget his call.


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: K7EXJ on March 08, 2016, 01:23:57 PM
... when I started working at Exxon as a Radio Officer. ...

Thanks for sharing this experience! It brought back many good memories. I loved Desqview.

I knew an Exxon radio officer (Vern?) who worked on the Exxon Valdez and the Exxon Mediterranean oil tankers in the '90s. He was a ham, but I forget his call.

I was never on the Exxon Valdez... but after the infamous Bligh Reef incident they renamed it to the Exxon Mediterranean. :P

I was working for Chevron when we lightered off the Valdez on one of its last trips to Alaska.

My favorite ship for Exxon was the Exxon Lexington. A beautifu, very fast, tanker on the Valdez, AK to Houston, TX run via the Panama Canal. Built in 1955 the Lex was originally crewed by 55 people. When I was on her it was crewed by only 22. This is one of the (many) reasons for the Valdez incident on Bligh Reef.

I was also a mate and CH. Mate for some foreign flag drill ships back in the 80s. And an ASK/DP watchstander.



Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: W0BTU on March 08, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
 after the infamous Bligh Reef incident they renamed it to the Exxon Mediterranean. :P

I thought that was something that Exxon didn't want anyone to know. ;-)

I was told the story of what actually happened, and it was NOT what the mainstream media reported. Joe (the captain) was NOT drinking until AFTER a defective Sperry Rand autopilot (is that the right term?) caused the oil spill.

It's a long story. But I need to get back to work now.

(DISCLAIMER: I was not a witness to any of these events as described here. What I said above may not be accurate.)


Title: RE: Giving up on Linux
Post by: AF7EC on March 08, 2016, 07:37:14 PM
I will lend my voice to this thread.  I will try to not get overzealous.

Windows is great for a lot of perfectly understandable reasons.  People who don't like to tinker with their computers, people who want stuff to 'just work', people who use what their employers put in front of them...they all use Windows.

Use what you like, but don't bash anyone over the head trying to make them convert...no one likes to be told what to do and why they're wrong because they use Windows, or Linux, or Mac, or Irix or Solaris and so-on.

I personally enjoy Linux and wish I could convert all of my customers over to it, but the reality is, there are just some apps that aren't well-represented on the Linux side, despite the good efforts of dedicated Linux developers.  Yes, there are hundreds and thousands of Linux apps for some tasks, but trying each one out can be frustrating.  I can download a promising-looking app from the Debian repos, only for it to crash, not appear on the screen or otherwise be defective.  YMMV.

Linux is interesting to me because I can bolt what *I* want onto it and not what some company wants.  I have full freedom to download an existing app's source-code and change it to meet my needs (which I've done on a few occasions).  I don't have to pay a monthly subscription for support, nor do I have to pay license fees.  The sword can cut both ways, however.  There are some key apps I use on Linux that have some pretty nasty bugs.  I'm a decent programmer, but often I just don't have the time or energy to dive into someone else's code to fix the bug.  This is where paid support would come in handy.  Of course, there are companies that provide support, but it's mostly them taking your money and giving little help in return.  Such is life these days.

Operating systems can be as personal as a person's taste in wine, food, furniture or cars.  Some people are forced to use Windows at work and find Macs at home relaxing, or vice-versa.  To me, Linux and FreeBSD are relaxing when I have to support dozens of my Windows-using customers each day.  A customer will ask for my help in doing something on Windows, and when I help them, I sometimes shake my head and go "Why in the world did Microsoft do this like that?".  Then again, with the systemd (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd) encroachment on today's Linux systems, I often find myself shaking my head at that, too.

Use what you want, if you're given the choice.  Try not to judge or jeer others for using something that you personally don't care for.  If you're like me, you'll appreciate the amount of customization and configuration you can do with Linux.  I run my business on it.  Debian for my workstation, Raspian for my local file server, FreeBSD for my alternate desktop and an Ubuntu server instance with a cloud provider for web, e-mail, calendaring, etc.  It all works the way I want, without license fees, mostly without problems.  If there *are* problems, they are usually fixed fairly quickly, or I go and write my own software.

Windows rocks!
Linux rocks!
FreeBSD rocks!
Mac (erm) is Mac! :-P