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eHam Forums => Amplifiers => Topic started by: W5JON on April 28, 2016, 11:13:48 AM



Title: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W5JON on April 28, 2016, 11:13:48 AM
SB QST @ ARL $ARLB015
ARLB015 FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Limit on Amateur Amplifiers

ZCZC AG15
QST de W1AW 
ARRL Bulletin 15  ARLB015
From ARRL Headquarters 
Newington CT  April 28, 2016
To all radio amateurs

SB QST ARL ARLB015
ARLB015 FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Limit on Amateur Amplifiers

The FCC has put on public notice and invited comments on a Petition
for Rule Making (RM-11767), filed on behalf of an amateur amplifier
distributor, which seeks to revise the Amateur Service rules
regarding maximum permissible amplifier gain. Expert Linears America
LLC of Magnolia, Texas, which distributes linears manufactured by
SPE in Italy, wants the FCC to eliminate the 15 dB gain limitation
on amateur amplifiers, spelled out in Part 97.317(a)(2). Expert
asserts that there should be no gain limitation at all on amplifiers
sold or used in the Amateur Service.

RM-11767 can be found on the web at,
http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/comment/view?id=60001536394 .

"There is no technical or regulatory reason [that] an amplifier
capable of being driven to full legal output by even a fraction of a
watt should not be available to Amateur Radio operators in the
United States," Expert said in its Petition.

Expert maintains that the 15 dB gain limitation is an unneeded
holdover from the days when amplifiers were less efficient and the
FCC was attempting to rein in the use of Amateur Service amplifiers
by Citizens Band operators. While the FCC proposed in its 2004
Notice of Proposed Rulemaking and Order in WT Docket 04-140 to
delete the requirement that amplifiers be designed to use a minimum
of 50 W of drive power and subsequently did so, it did not further
discuss the 15 dB amplification limit in the subsequent Report and
Order in the docket.

The R&O is in PDF format at,
https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-149A1.pdf
.

"Although no party advocated retention of the 15 dB limit, it
remains in place today," Expert pointed out in its filing. "In the
intervening years, advancements in Amateur Radio transmitter
technology have led to the availability of highly compact,
sophisticated low-power transmitters that require more than 15 dB of
amplification to achieve maximum legal power output. Therefore,
Expert seeks to remove the 15 dB limit from Part 97.317 so that
Amateur Radio manufacturers and distributors will not be forced to
needlessly cripple their amplifiers for sale in the United States."

Expert pointed to its Model 1.3K FA amplifier as an example of a
linear "inherently capable of considerably more than 15 dB of
amplification," which would make it a suitable match for low-power
transceivers now on the market having output power on the order of
10 W.
NNNN
/EX


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N9AOP on April 28, 2016, 02:49:01 PM
What do you suppose that this will do to the IMD?
Art


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ND6M on April 28, 2016, 03:04:23 PM
If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: G3RZP on April 28, 2016, 03:13:05 PM
I can't see that the proposal does any harm while the limit on out of band gain remains. No other country has this limitation - and I do not see why US amateurs should be limited  - unless anyone in the FCC can demonstrate that US amateurs are significantly less law abiding and knowledgeable on technical matters than the rest of the world.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7PRC on April 28, 2016, 03:28:51 PM
Quote
I can't see that the proposal does any harm while the limit on out of band gain remains. No other country has this limitation - and I do not see why US amateurs should be limited  - unless anyone in the FCC can demonstrate that US amateurs are significantly less law abiding and knowledgeable on technical matters than the rest of the world.
1. Because other countries do something is not in itself a reason for the US to do something.
2. It's not US hams that need to be watched. It's the US NON hams that need to be watched.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1QJ on April 28, 2016, 03:33:19 PM
This gain issue was purely an issue which came about because of the CB boom of years ago.  It is no longer needed.  All you have to do is go to YOUTUBE and see the videos about those who hawk selling huge CB type amps.  Some of the stuff is truly amazing.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7PRC on April 28, 2016, 03:41:41 PM
All you have to do is go to YOUTUBE and see the videos about those who hawk selling huge CB type amps.  Some of the stuff is truly amazing.
Some is comical.
Some is scary.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: G3RZP on April 28, 2016, 03:43:37 PM
Quote
It's the US NON hams that need to be watched.

But in reality, as a rule, it is about as much use as teats on a bull. Illegal CB is there.....and the FCC doesn't have the staff or the money to do a lot about it.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7PRC on April 28, 2016, 05:06:16 PM
Quote
It's the US NON hams that need to be watched.
But in reality, as a rule, it is about as much use as teats on a bull. Illegal CB is there.....and the FCC doesn't have the staff or the money to do a lot about it.
Since the FCC doesn't have the staff or money to do a lot about it, let's give up, and make it legal. That makes 'prefect' sense.


Not.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on April 28, 2016, 05:24:02 PM
Apparently the only people who care about the CB band are hams, the senile ones in particular.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7PRC on April 28, 2016, 05:26:44 PM
Apparently, some don't have a valid argument, and resort to placing labels on those with whom they disagree.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on April 28, 2016, 05:39:56 PM
Apparently, some don't have a valid argument, and resort to placing labels on those with whom they disagree.

Nonsense. It is just a matter of minding my own business. Which is a pretty valid argument.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 28, 2016, 06:20:40 PM
They want to make it easier to make 20 kw amps with 100watts or less drive (about 23 db gain)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on April 28, 2016, 07:33:30 PM
They want to make it easier to make 20 kw amps with 100watts or less drive (about 23 db gain)


I have a friend who drove a 3cx10,000 with an L4B. Called it the atom smasher. Lot of guys drove a pair of 4-1000's with something like an SB220. Talk about a nasty signal. Seems to be less of that going on that it was 30 years ago for whatever reason.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6JH on April 29, 2016, 01:50:42 AM
Oh come on, these days there are other technical ways to keep an amp from operating on 11m than limiting the gain.

Remember how some amps can't operate on 10m without showing your license in order to purchase the mod parts? Or how more modern amps will work on 10 without modification by using a counter to determine the frequency of operation?

I can't see what useful purpose the gain limitation rule fulfills, other than a 10db attenuator makes the input match look perfect.  ;)

73
Jim K6JH


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N2SR on April 29, 2016, 02:24:17 AM
Oh come on, these days there are other technical ways to keep an amp from operating on 11m than limiting the gain.

Remember how some amps can't operate on 10m without showing your license in order to purchase the mod parts? Or how more modern amps will work on 10 without modification by using a counter to determine the frequency of operation?

I can't see what useful purpose the gain limitation rule fulfills, other than a 10db attenuator makes the input match look perfect.  ;)

73
Jim K6JH

Why should a licensed ham operator need to PAY MONEY for a kit or whatever is necessary to make his/her amplifier legally operate on amateur radio frequencies that he/she is authorized to operate?

I have no issue with sending a copy of your license at the time of purchase.   But when you charge money - on top of the price of the amplifier - that is a money grab.   I'm looking at you Ameritron.



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KS4TL on April 29, 2016, 04:13:36 AM
Would like to see the FCC eliminate the 15dB limit, but also impose limits on odd-order IMD at rated power output for all amps.

Some owners of the nicer QRP rigs (KX3, Elad, etc.) would like to be able to use their little QRP rig barefoot when portable, but boost them up to several hundred watts when in the shack, eliminating the need for a separate 100 watt rig. A niche market, but a perfectly valid one, and one that should not be penalized because of the few surviving CBers.

Jeff N3JS (ex-KS4TL)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N3QE on April 29, 2016, 04:32:55 AM
Related question: Do any of the MOSFET PA's use grounded gate configuration?

Of course, grounded gate JFETs are de rigueur for low IMD receive preamps.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on April 29, 2016, 06:33:23 AM
Hams should be responsible for emissions, not the manufacturer. Any amp can be over driven, improperly loaded, etc.  Requiring certification exists because too few hams know or care about having a clean signal (I get good audio reports, etc.)  And the fact that the CB crowd abused the system for decades, and the hams paid the price.  Strange to see hundreds and hundreds of illegal CB amps still being sold, along with illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on sites like eBay, etc.  And the FCC turns a blind eye. Sad thing is the FCC is underfunded, many hams don't care, or don't have the technical expertise needed to solder a PL-259.

Pete


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 29, 2016, 06:57:07 AM
Hams should be responsible for emissions, not the manufacturer. Any amp can be over driven, improperly loaded, etc.  Requiring certification exists because too few hams know or care about having a clean signal (I get good audio reports, etc.)  And the fact that the CB crowd abused the system for decades, and the hams paid the price.  Strange to see hundreds and hundreds of illegal CB amps still being sold, along with illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on sites like eBay, etc.  And the FCC turns a blind eye. Sad thing is the FCC is underfunded, many hams don't care, or don't have the technical expertise needed to solder a PL-259.

Pete

You have got to be kidding about Ham's being capable of keeping emmisions in check. Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air. This places even greater responsibility on amp builders to try to keep emissions in check.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ND6M on April 29, 2016, 07:26:07 AM
Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8MQW on April 29, 2016, 07:44:45 AM
Below is a prototype letter to send to your Congressional representatives:

Please ask the FCC to rule favorably on RM-11767, a change to 97.317(a)(2).  The present rule is a barrier to the diffusion of modern technology into the amateur radio service. In brief, because of a decades-old fear of the misuse of high-power amateur radio amplifiers by outlaw citizen's band users, the FCC restricted the gain of amateur amplifiers to 15 dB. This fear is obviated by modern computer lockout.

Meanwhile, radio technology has suddenly moved into the digital realm such that far better (inexpensive) transceivers are now available with far superior spectral purity. The wide acceptance of this  new software-defined radio (SDR) technology is being blocked by rule 97.317(a)(2).

Moreover, the SDR revolution has enabled American manufacturers to regain dominance in amateur radio manufacture with concomitant spillover into commercial and military contracts. This technology should be promoted.

Please light a fire under the FCC. Thank you for your service to our State.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W5WSS on April 29, 2016, 11:01:24 AM
Good thing when one needs to buy an FCC approved amplifier capable of 6-7KW that they are available here, you know loaf along at 1499 watts PEP....One wouldn't think of giving in to the temptation to turn it up to compete with the other guy that turned his up beyond legal limit...wink wink. ;) Hey ole man your 59+841. :o

73


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N3QE on April 29, 2016, 11:15:24 AM
Good thing when one needs to buy an FCC approved amplifier capable of 6-7KW that they are available here, you know loaf along at 1499 watts PEP....One wouldn't think of giving in to the temptation to turn it up to compete with the other guy that turned his up beyond legal limit...wink wink. ;) Hey ole man your 59+841. :o

Every time I look at my 3CX3000A7 I think how nice it'd be to have an exciter that could put out 450W.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on April 29, 2016, 11:50:04 AM
Since this is only going to effect Gain and Not change the 1500 watt legal limit I suspect that the changes are to benefit radio manufactures with being able to make more 5 and 10 watt rigs and therefore reduce costs. As we have seen with the Icom 7300, no one wants the versions that output less than 100.watts.

Who Benefits:

The Radio manufactures will be more comfortably able to produce and market low powered rigs if amplifiers are available to bring them up to legal limit.  The amplifier companies also benefit of course.  It will become very frustrating very fast using 5 watts, so no doubt companies like Expert are hoping to cash in on making cheap simple 200-500 watt amplifiers as well as legal limit ones that play well with these cheaper low powered radios.

The Downside:
100 Watt rigs may become a premium item since SDR technology will cut a lot of costs and now being able to have 5-10 watts become more accepted as a standard they can cut costs even more.
Personally I find anything sub 100 watts to be less than ideal, especially when I might need to throw it in my car for emergency purposes.

Second issue is that since these are most likely solid state amps they will be building, one has to wonder about the IMD products.

Overall I am not in favor of such a move, it will no doubt flood the market with really cheap radios that are not very useful unless you love the frustration of being QRP all the time and secondly it's just a maneuver to boost amplifier sales by Expert SPE

73
Rob


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK4YDR on April 29, 2016, 01:00:51 PM
Since this is only going to effect Gain and Not change the 1500 watt legal limit I suspect that the changes are to benefit radio manufactures with being able to make more 5 and 10 watt rigs and therefore reduce costs. As we have seen with the Icom 7300, no one wants the versions that output less than 100.watts.

Who Benefits:

The Radio manufactures will be more comfortably able to produce and market low powered rigs if amplifiers are available to bring them up to legal limit.  The amplifier companies also benefit of course.  It will become very frustrating very fast using 5 watts, so no doubt companies like Expert are hoping to cash in on making cheap simple 200-500 watt amplifiers as well as legal limit ones that play well with these cheaper low powered radios.

The Downside:
100 Watt rigs may become a premium item since SDR technology will cut a lot of costs and now being able to have 5-10 watts become more accepted as a standard they can cut costs even more.
Personally I find anything sub 100 watts to be less than ideal, especially when I might need to throw it in my car for emergency purposes.

Second issue is that since these are most likely solid state amps they will be building, one has to wonder about the IMD products.

Overall I am not in favor of such a move, it will no doubt flood the market with really cheap radios that are not very useful unless you love the frustration of being QRP all the time and secondly it's just a maneuver to boost amplifier sales by Expert SPE

73
Rob

Well now I would love to be able to hook my FT-817 into a nice big fat tube amp and get legal limit out of it. Or spend $600 on a 5 watt 7300 "like" rig and get legal limit out of the other end via a high gain amplifier. In the end it will enable more hams to enter the realm of HF adding to the activity and interesting people to talk to. I hear the same voices over and over as I frequent portions of the bands. New faces, new talents, new ideas, new discussions are always welcome. I am very sure if there was a high gain legit amplifier market you would see much larger sums of lower power rigs for sale. I would love to run my Flex 6300 at 5-10 watts out. It saves on wear and tear overall of my FlexRadio and puts the abuse in the tubes where they belong. But for now if nothing changes I am still satisfied with how things are.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts but then we encounter issues like power deliver to such a power hog. Already my 240v line feeding my legal limit amplifier, adding in ineffeciencies is puling close to 2.5 KW from the pole to make 1500 watts out. A 3kw amplifier would exacerbate that problem further more either maxing out a 240 line current limit or requiring installation of a 400+ volt 3 phase line into the shack to power a 75lb transformer. I think 1500 watts is perfect as it stands and the direction of going to very high gain amplification is a great move ultimately.

Lastly, besides home brew stuff, even if the laws were changed to allow high gain amplification, it will be a decade or more before truly high gain amplifiers are commercially available. The amateur radio market moves almost impossibly slow with innovation due to the archaic and well "should have been expire" dinosaur laws.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 29, 2016, 01:03:15 PM
Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 29, 2016, 01:04:33 PM
I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK4YDR on April 29, 2016, 01:06:40 PM
Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....

Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man! Just like speed limits don't stop people from speeding, drinking prohibitions don't stop people from consuming, drug laws don't stop overdoses, and guns are responsible for killing, not the killer. It's call personal integrity, something that almost everyone absolutely lacks in some form or fashion and very few live by. When rule by law is overseen by the immoral government, those subject to immoral government become immoral themselves. The fix is fixing our government before we can fix the immoral people.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 29, 2016, 01:13:30 PM
Bottom Line:  The ONLY reason this idea has been invented is to make money for amp dealers.

The root of all evil, PROFIT. Anything to make a extra buck. Gun industry has made a fortune off of gun crazy and there are only a few major players that own most of major brand guns and ammo production. What to make more money, pass or change a law restricting sales/profit on item in question...

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.

I would like to see the 1500 watt cap lifted and elevate it to 3000 watts

Why current cap has not stopped anyone from running more power if they want too....

Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man!

More often than not profit can also kill jobs as big companies reduce workforce to increase profit.

There was a time when I believe most Hams were fairly moral following rules but when the opened flood gates to new no code and CB extra class with easy tests there is less moral motivation by many of them because they did not have to work hard to get there and have more respect for it.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WV4L on April 29, 2016, 04:20:13 PM
W8JX states "There was a time when I believe most Hams were fairly moral following rules but when the opened flood gates to new no code and CB extra class with easy tests there is less moral motivation by many of them because they did not have to work hard to get there and have more respect for it. "

Really ???  In many instances we have have found that is not always the case. To quote the comic strip character Pogo- "We have met the enemy and he is us". :o :o :o :o :o :o

 ;) ;) ;)
73
WV4L
Wayne C.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6AER on April 29, 2016, 07:23:16 PM
Interesting quote, "Root of all evil, Profit".

Can any one name a company beside the post office that in in business that does not make a profit?


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WB3CQM on April 29, 2016, 07:57:04 PM
Interesting quote, "Root of all evil, Profit".

Can any one name a company beside the post office that in in business that does not make a profit?

 I sure agree with you on that note . If I did not make a profit i would have been out of business long time ago . If it were not for profit I could not spend my hard earned profit on radio gear , tower , antenna and the like. It is all about keeping the economy going around and around is it not ?

When I had those bad years when price of gas went to $4.00 gallon I hardly could survive with the little profit , I can tell  you I did not spend money on toys . And so it go's the people that make a living in Radio make less profit and I think this caused many to go out of business did it not ? I know of one computer company owner that had to close many stores and many people lost their jobs because this friend of mine made no profit to keep those stores open and pay employees .

Show me Chapter and verse where it says "root of all evil , Profit "

1Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils; of which some aspiring to ,have been mislead from the faith and they themselves are staked-through by many sorrows. ( Holy Bible Modern Literal Version )

One final note on this : The KJV (king James Version )  incorrectly translates 1Tim 6:10   from the Greek when it says money is " root of all evil . " This is NOT true and it is not a correct translation . Look again at Modern Literal Version .


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK5DR on April 29, 2016, 08:19:31 PM
So, tell me the reason for the rule? Iiilegal is still illegal regardless of the drive level required for an output of legal limit.
What reasonable cause is there for such a prohibition on stage gain?
Has it worked so far to limit the intended illegal use.
I think Canada has it right 2250 watts output regardless of mode, PEP, whatever! If you are not licensed for such output on a given frequency, you go to prison, simple as that.
But, the FCC is a paper tiger, useless, ineffective. It takes years for any kind of action on a violation.  It is the definition of government inefficiency.
Pathetic!


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 30, 2016, 04:00:20 AM
Can any one name a company beside the post office that in in business that does not make a profit?

There is a difference between profit to be viable and manipulative excessive profit at expense of consumers or clients you are raping for services or product...


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on April 30, 2016, 04:23:26 AM
I am sure that guns, profits, and no code licenses will be very persuasive arguments with the FCC. You could even try to dress up your argument by turning it into a formula:

        Max Amp dB Gain Allowed = (10Log (1/Profit Margin) * Code Speed) / (# Guns+1)

That would make these points SO much more credible and sophisticated...

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on April 30, 2016, 04:28:48 AM
I am sure that guns, profits, and no code licenses will be very persuasive arguments with the FCC. You could even try to dress up your argument by turning it into a formula:

        Max Amp dB Gain Allowed = (10Log (1/Profit Margin) * Code Speed) / (# Guns+1)

That would make these points SO much more credible and sophisticated...

- Glenn W9IQ

FCC was lobbied to make it easy to get ham tickets to boost sales in the guise of promoting a hobby that survived for many decades without such promotion.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8MQW on April 30, 2016, 08:48:15 AM
Come on guys, don't be so cynical. This can be changed. It's a rule that is holding up progress.

Go to http://apps.fcc.gov/ecfs/upload/display, and comment on RM-11767.

Remember, ASCII was forbidden to be transmitted once. But we changed that in a few months.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: NK7Z on April 30, 2016, 10:14:35 AM
Interesting quote, "Root of all evil, Profit".

Can any one name a company beside the post office that in in business that does not make a profit?
While I agree it was a very interesting comment, to name a few that are not making profits...

Amazon, Twitter, Uber, FedX, TBS, Tesla, SpaceX...  Many US companies don't make profits by design... 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: NK7Z on April 30, 2016, 10:23:51 AM
There is a difference between profit to be viable and manipulative excessive profit at expense of consumers or clients you are raping for services or product...
Sounds like an old Radio Piking, or Radio Moscow broadcast...  


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on April 30, 2016, 10:30:31 AM
W8JX states "There was a time when I believe most Hams were fairly moral following rules but when the opened flood gates to new no code and CB extra class with easy tests there is less moral motivation by many of them because they did not have to work hard to get there and have more respect for it. "

Really ???  In many instances we have have found that is not always the case. To quote an old comic strip character- "We have found the enemy and we are it". :o :o :o :o :o :o

 ;) ;) ;)
73
WV4L
Wayne C.

which proves what???  You need the government to make you feel safe?  As if laws are going to have any real effect, especially if they are not enforced?  Maybe you need a safe zone to feel comfy??  Real hams back in the 60's didn't need these laws to protect us from ourselves or evil manufacturers.  It is sad to see that hams need to be protected and babied. I think the FCC and ARRL needs to promote feely good SAFE ZONES for sensitive hams.



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WV4L on April 30, 2016, 11:08:40 AM
To which comment are you replying to Pete?

I was merely trying to make a point that we should not single out one or more groups for the woes to which we are addressing. My apologies for entering the high jacking of the thread.   :-[


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W5WSS on April 30, 2016, 12:11:31 PM
Nobody hijacked the thread the amplifiers that are already being sold for years here are ample to communicate at legal limit and have been. There are two legitimate reasons for having these large amplifiers capable of far above legal limit.

1) Longevity, because the amplifier is operated at 20% of capacity at 1.5KW
2) Having as much power as needed for emergency communications.

Naive to believe that everyone is resisting the temptation to limit their power and limit QRM that is too strong for most receivers to handle.

It is true that with new technology advances Research and Development cost a company money regardless of their profit margin.

Free enterprise yeah!


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: AA4HA on April 30, 2016, 12:30:58 PM
... Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air.

(deliberate sarcasm here); "yea, we no-code extras are to blame for everything".

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA... the no-code extra


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on April 30, 2016, 12:56:51 PM
I am sure that guns, profits, and no code licenses will be very persuasive arguments with the FCC. You could even try to dress up your argument by turning it into a formula:

        Max Amp dB Gain Allowed = (10Log (1/Profit Margin) * Code Speed) / (# Guns+1)

That would make these points SO much more credible and sophisticated...

- Glenn W9IQ

FCC was lobbied to make it easy to get ham tickets to boost sales in the guise of promoting a hobby that survived for many decades without such promotion.



I don't think so. I think they did it to keep the hobby from dying. Which it is anyway, just not quite as fast.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on April 30, 2016, 03:44:45 PM
I hate doing the thinking for other companies but in this case to save Expert a lot of hassle I suggest they just do a Mod to their circuit design.  Since they make SS Amps, almost all SS amps I have ever seen have at least 3db of attenuation at the input.  Why not just make the Attenuation Resistors into a module that can be plugged out and replaced with a non attenuating module?  They might need to rework the board and add some extra contact Pins on the input board and the modules so that the Amps CPU realizes which module is in place, but I see no reason why this cannot work.

Since most countries do not have the same limitations as the USA with the FCC, they would only be able to sell amps with Zero attenuation modules outside the USA, but dealers in other countries would be stocked with spares.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: NK7Z on April 30, 2016, 06:42:11 PM
... Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air.

(deliberate sarcasm here); "yea, we no-code extras are to blame for everything".

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA... the no-code extra

RANT MODE ON

I'm pretty sure that there exists a large, undisciplined cadre of "no-code extras", all with their QRP rigs strapped to their backs, shortened whip antennas being wielded like machetes, just waiting to get their hands on a KW level amp, so like the Walking Dead, they can wander the streets in hordes, looking for Old Timer hams in order to kill and eat them.  Much like a hive mind, these "No-Code-Extras" will behave as one entity, tune their amps, and take over 20 Meters, yelling UP UP UP every time someone accidentally transmits on the DX stations frequency...  Oh wait, that has already happened on 20, and it is not the no-code-extras doing it...  So never mind...

Honestly, the term "No code extra" ought to be stricken from the Amateur Radios vocabulary, and anyone using it whipped.  It is the fastest way to make an enemy of a new person in the hobby.  It does absolutely nothing but make the person saying it feel better about themselves, and demonstrates how utterly stupid someone can be once those words leave their mouth...

If you think another ham needs help in understanding how some item works, then help them for Gods sake, don't call them names like an eight year old, just help them...  How hard can this be...  Legislating inter-stage gain because you fear the hordes of Walking Dead No-Code-Extras will take over-- is-- well, just silly...

RANT MODE OFF


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N7EKU on April 30, 2016, 10:24:25 PM
Hi,

I think the main issue against this proposal, would be the use of such an amp on homebrewed, or qrp kit equipment.  I've seem many many kits with pretty poorly designed final amplifiers.  They tend to have problems with stability, poor biasing schemes, broadband transformer problems, etc.  While using these at their current few watts output may not be a big problem, what happens when you hook them up to a high gain, hundreds of watts or kilowatt output amplifier?

The advantage to lower level output on kits and homebrew, is that issues in the design -- anywhere from the mic amp to the final amplifier -- probably will not cause a lot of problems to other users on the bands, but once such a signal is boosted to hundreds of watts, then what?  Is their CW keying shaped properly?  Is the SSB carrier sufficiently suppressed?  Is the BFO set correctly and the filter shaped properly so that the bandwidth is not excessive?

Sure, running an Elecraft or Icom/Kenwood/Yaesu QRP rig should be fine due to the extensive testing and development of the rig, but this extensive testing and professional development (and proper alignment/adjustment) often doesn't exist in the qrp kit world where complete rigs are coming out of China for a few bucks, etc.

On the whole I would be against this proposal as I feel it would be really opening up a can of worms :-/

73,


Mark.





Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK4YDR on May 01, 2016, 12:38:35 AM
Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W4JCK on May 01, 2016, 01:24:04 AM
Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on May 01, 2016, 06:50:01 AM
... Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air.

(deliberate sarcasm here); "yea, we no-code extras are to blame for everything".

Ms. Tisha Hayes, AA4HA... the no-code extra

Class of license,  tenure, or CW ability doesn't mean much these days. And, it probably never did. There are tech class licensees that hold PhD degrees in electronic engineering, and there are old fart hams who've been licensed for eons who don't know a resistor from a capacitor.  At one time a ham license assumed that the holder was expected to have some degree of technical ability... the hobby is no longer a purely technical pursuit. But, I fear the backlash is the continuance of FCC regulations which assume that hams are no longer capable of running their equipment legally.  Hams are unique in that we can home-brew equipment and place it on the air; and the government assumes we understand the regulations and abide by them.  Add to this the fact that the FCC was not able to regulate illegal Free Bander or CB issues without imposing unneeded regulations that screwed over ham radio manufacturers, and forced hams to pay higher prices for type accepted equipment. We still have radios being sold with severe ALC overshoot problems, etc.  And  the illegal manufacturing, and sales of equipment for CB and even for use on the commercial AM and FM broadcast bands continues to be ignored by the FCC.  Why have laws that are not being enforced?  Hams and legal manufacturers pay the price, and problems that could be easily addressed (ALC overshoot, etc.) are ignored. The only reason the 15 dB gain limitation was made into law was because of illegal amplifiers being sold CB operators. The laws are not being enforced, and the CB craze is pretty much dead.  Same for the regulations regarding receivers that can tune frequencies used for the old analog cellular frequencies. Another antiquated law that is just as useless.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK4YDR on May 01, 2016, 09:39:18 AM
I just get tired of people thinking that the FCC makes law. They do not. The congress does. But even the FCC thinks they make law.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK5DR on May 01, 2016, 11:01:00 AM
The FCC "rules" have not limited the number of power amplifiers being used on CB, never have.
I dare say there are more large amps on CB than there are in use on all the ham bands combined.
The rules make very little technical sense today.
Time for the FCC to live in the "real world", make and actually enforce the rules.
There it is, the true problem, enforcement.
I'm tried of hearing the whine that the FCC doesn't have money to spend on enforcement.
It's easy, congress needs to make the FCC a self supporting agency. Money they collect in forfeitures would not go into the general fund for congress to piss away on porkulus spending. Instead, it goes into FCC budget. The agency would them be motivated to enforce rules on ALL radio services, not just ham radio.
It's unlikely to ever happen, so debating it is pointless.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on May 01, 2016, 12:04:15 PM
The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.

Thats partly true.  The problem is that if one looks to the future and uses the past as a reference then it's easy to imagine that lower powered cheaper SDR transceivers are most likely going to have IMD products that might be horrible but acceptable at 5-10 watts.  What happens when those are fed into a Solid state Amp that brings it up to 1500 Watts?

73s
Rob


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N9AOP on May 01, 2016, 12:42:10 PM
Tisha,
I don't have a clue why so many want to blame the no-code extras.  If you read all the editorials written by W2NSD/1 you will know that it was that nasty old ARRL and its incentive licensing that caused firms like Hallicrafters, Hammarlund, Collins and Drake to fold up.
Art

Ten Tec probably folded because it sold it's assets to Larry the Liquidator (RKR).
Art


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: NO9E on May 01, 2016, 01:33:33 PM
Guys,
15m is empty but when you call CQ, DX are coming in at 59. Call CQ and discuss this issue.
The rule 15db does not make much sense nowadays, but like any rule, it is rationalized.

My 1.3k-fa is coming in 2 weeks. KX3 will be driving it. A 25 lb complete KW with antenna switching and tuner. IMD3 only -30db, but -50db if Elecraft decides to add forward correction.

Ignacy, NO9E


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W5JON on May 01, 2016, 06:48:54 PM
Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.


Yes, the "IMD police", who for YEARS have never given a callsign, or even basic information as to qualifications, but yet we are to accept as gospel everything they post about IMD.   

73,

John


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KOP on May 01, 2016, 08:57:48 PM
Tisha,
 
A 4CX5000 has 300 volts of grid bias, and you have a  ~100W PEP exciter. Eb=300 Pd=80 (to have headroom for variables).
Eb² / 2Pd = Rg     so  300^2/ 160 =   562 ohms for Rg.

We both know where it comes from :-) w8ji.com for those not familiar .
I've been rolling my own with some success for years . I just couldn't bring myself to introduce another input/output variable with an additional gain stage
just to drive a GG ceramic with the requisite 100W necessary for full input .
I'm sure the station in a box contingent will appreciate the idea as much as the petitioning manufacturer .

I just don't see the issue . Then again I am a no code extra …


~kop


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N2SR on May 02, 2016, 02:44:19 AM
Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.

Godwin's Law is now in effect.



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: NK7Z on May 02, 2016, 05:02:30 AM
Sigh the age old argument of "No code" hams caused global meltdown, the birth of Al Gore, and the rise of the 3rd Reich.

Godwin's Law is now in effect.
I didn't catch that, else I would have called it...  I was wondering when the Nazi would be involved in the discussion...


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on May 02, 2016, 12:45:02 PM
Well, another thread on a reasonable topic has dissolved into the realm of useless.  I did get a chuckle or two from the IMD comments.  It's always interesting to see this bandied about now.  Ten years or so ago, probably 5% of hams knew what this was and what it truly means.  Now we have hundreds of newly-minted Google PhDs who can't wait to type those three letters in a post.

The 15dB limit has no direct correlation to IMD performance.  And as another poster noted, there is really no technical reason for this rule to continue to exist.  But, why should facts get in the way of an opportunity to express our personal biases?  Rock on dudes.


Yes, the "IMD police", who for YEARS have never given a callsign, or even basic information as to qualifications, but yet we are to accept as gospel everything they post about IMD.   

73,

John

John. I will always give my callsign. I may be old, and opinionated... but I always stand behind my opinions. Right or wrong.  Peter


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6AER on May 02, 2016, 02:44:40 PM
Dragging this back to the original post, the general run of the mill commercial amplifiers have over 20 dB of gain.

There is nothing to keep a ham adding a driver amp to get his QRP radio output to 1.5 KW.

I personally like the idea of the lower power QRP radios being to get to a 200 watt output with a $500 amplifier. Much better for stability to keep the heat out of the radio. The infamous HLA-300V has a attenuator pad up front to meet the 15 dB requirement. Although I suspect this was also added for VSWR smoothing.

I have been around this hobby for a while.

I remember the noise when SSB was allowed on HF.
They took 11 meter from us.
No minimum age limit for hams.
Repeaters went from AM to FM.
Output power was raised to 1500 watt PEP.
Digital repeaters were allowed.
Code speed was reduced to 5 WPM then none at all.

Some how we survived.

As the sunspot cycle gets lower I suspect more amplifiers are in the typical station mix.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on May 03, 2016, 08:10:33 AM

I have been around this hobby for a while.
 
Repeaters went from AM to FM.
 
Some how we survived.

 

Wow.  There are not many of us left who remember the K6MYK legacy.  At one time my machine had more stations running modified Gooney Birds (with direct FM modulation mods) than those using converted FM gear. I had even gave some serious thought to adding a second AM RX on another frequency.

Pete


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: QRP4U2 on May 03, 2016, 08:26:42 AM
Quote from: KK4YDR

Agree and disagree - Profit is not the root of evil and profit provides jobs whether you like or not. Sure adding some new lines to say... Ameritron to add in some very high gain high power amplifiers might ask for high prices but they are probably going to hire 25 more people to build these devices. Some of them having 3 kids to feed, adding to the economy, etc... I hate the anti-profit making mentality of the left, not that you are, it is just there is so many companies who make profit but do so in a intelligent, responsible, and moral way with benefit to families and economies overall. Your blanket statement is well noted but none-the-less confounded generally speaking.


Quote from: KK4YDR
Because some of us enjoy moral obligation, have moral fortitude, and believe in living by moral code. Those that don't probably lack necessary respect for those that do. Golden rule stuff man! Just like speed limits don't stop people from speeding, drinking prohibitions don't stop people from consuming, drug laws don't stop overdoses, and guns are responsible for killing, not the killer. It's call personal integrity, something that almost everyone absolutely lacks in some form or fashion and very few live by. When rule by law is overseen by the immoral government, those subject to immoral government become immoral themselves. The fix is fixing our government before we can fix the immoral people.

Thumbs up on those statements.

I would like to see the US get in line with our Canadian neighbors and increase the PEP figure to 2.2kW  or thereabouts.

Phil - AC0OB


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on July 23, 2016, 02:04:31 PM
Clayton,

The proposal does not increase the legal limit. It simply removes the gain restriction. Today a 5 watt signal can be amplified to a limit of ~ 160 watts by a commercial amplifier. If this restriction is removed, then a commercial amp could have more gain allowing a QRP radio to go to 600 or even 1500 watts in one hop for example.

But 1500 watts remains the legal limit.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: AA4HA on July 23, 2016, 03:58:24 PM
--- "Many of today's no code CB Extra class do not even know how to tune a amp and depend on plug and play rigs, amps and tuners to get on air. ---

I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something. Or will you pull a Trump-ism and just say it is because I am a woman?


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: AA4HA on July 23, 2016, 04:00:55 PM
The proposal does not increase the legal limit. It simply removes the gain restriction. Today a 5 watt signal can be amplified to a limit of ~ 160 watts by a commercial amplifier. If this restriction is removed, then a commercial amp could have more gain allowing a QRP radio to go to 600 or even 1500 watts in one hop for example.
Now that would be a cool feature; a tiny microprocessor with sensing circuitry. When you exceed 1501 watts or modulate outside of the emissions mask it immediately blows the finals out.

 :D   Problem Solved!


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7PRC on July 23, 2016, 04:55:54 PM
I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something. Or will you pull a Trump-ism and just say it is because I am a woman?
I would NEVER say that to Tisha (at least, not without a BIG head start).  ;)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: VA7OJ on July 24, 2016, 12:26:15 AM
Quote
I think Canada has it right 2250 watts output regardless of mode, PEP, whatever! If you are not licensed for such output on a given frequency, you go to prison, simple as that.


Hi Matt,

Actually the Canadian power limits for Advanced licensees are:

(i) 2.25 kW peak envelope power for transmitters that produce any type of single sideband
emission, or

(ii) 750 W carrier power for transmitters that produce any other type of emission.

Basic and Basic with Honours licensees have power limits which are 6 dB lower.

Here is the link to the relevant Industry Canada document (RBR-4):

http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html (http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/eng/sf01226.html)

73, Adam VA7OJ/AB4OJ


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on July 26, 2016, 05:35:32 AM
I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

I disagree, back then test was harder and code meant you just could not sit down and take a multiple guess test that you can see questions before hand from a pool. You had to work at it with time on air and using equipment with it and gained experiance

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something.

A no code CB/Extra is nearly as easy to get as a old CB ticket. Most would not be Extra's under old rules. Pretty soon there will be just one ticket that will be mail order with no "test" and CB will be officially reborn. I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it. Today Extra means nothing really because it is so easy to get.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1QJ on July 26, 2016, 05:48:53 AM
TBT....Back in 1967 when I was first licensed I belonged to the local radio club.  In the entire membership there was only one lone Amateur Extra ham.  When he walked into the room you would think the "KING" entered.  When all else failed he would be called upon for the final word.  He indeed was the most knowledgeable.  He was very well respected.  Needless to say the same club now has more members with most being the "new style" Extras.  No such person exists any longer. 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on July 26, 2016, 06:08:13 AM
TBT....Back in 1967 when I was first licensed I belonged to the local radio club.  In the entire membership there was only one lone Amateur Extra ham.  When he walked into the room you would think the "KING" entered.  When all else failed he would be called upon for the final word.  He indeed was the most knowledgeable.  He was very well respected.  Needless to say the same club now has more members with most being the "new style" Extras.  No such person exists any longer.  

I remember those days too. They are gone now. It is all about profit. They lobbied hard to relax requirements in order to boost sales and profits for those building equipment for hobby without any concern to what it might do to ham radio long term. Sad day for ham radio. When I listen to bands today vs 20 or more years ago you can hear the difference too.

 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W3PH on July 26, 2016, 08:05:56 AM
When I listen to bands today vs 20 or more years ago you can hear the difference too.

You can even hear it on CW - I'm shocked & amazed at the number of people who intentionally QRM dxpeditions - that never used to happen on CW.

I got my extra in (wheeze) 1965.  As I recall you a) had to be general or advanced for at least 2 years, b) be able to copy 20 WPM on paper, c) draw schematics (can't remember of what, but a pentode was involved) and d) do it at an FCC office. 

Oh well.  This is off-topic for this thread, but you're right. 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on July 26, 2016, 08:56:32 AM
What is sad is that hams are straddled by obsolete laws that were intended to mitigate illegal CB operations... and yet, you can find scores of illegal CB amps being sold on the open market--even on eBay, Amazon... at truck stops, etc.  And, a quick Google search brings up scores of sites that are supplying illegal products for the CB market.

So, who has been hurt?  Only hams! The FCC doesn't enforce the law. You can also buy scores of illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on eBay, and the FCC doesn't bat an eye.  Complain to eBay, and they play dumb. I attempted to sell a popular ham rig that could be used on CB illegally, and mentioned in my ad that the CB was disabled... it was reported and my auction was pulled. Yet, I have reported numerous auctions for much more blatant violations, and eBay never takes action. 

Who really cares how much gain an amplifier has?  We should be concerned about IMD (linearity issues) and not gain!  Idiots can use two amplifiers in cascade... and CB loons do!  The laws do NOT preclude a ham from owning, or home brewing, an amplifier that exceeds the current gain ratings.

The current FCC method for regulating PEP power is at best a joke!  AM operators are forced to keep their carrier power at 1/4th maximum PEP?  Was this on purpose, or a result of laws that were not thought out?

Many of the current ham regulations need to be rewritten. And whatever laws remaining on the books need to be enforced. So far the illegal amplifier manufacturers are skirting the law, and as much as some of you fools might hate MFJ--they have played by the rules and produce legal products. That adds to their bottom line.



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on July 26, 2016, 09:07:00 AM
What is sad is that hams are straddled by obsolete laws that were intended to mitigate illegal CB operations... and yet, you can find scores of illegal CB amps being sold on the open market--even on eBay, Amazon... at truck stops, etc.  And, a quick Google search brings up scores of sites that are supplying illegal products for the CB market.

So, who has been hurt?  Only hams! The FCC doesn't enforce the law. You can also buy scores of illegal FM and AM broadcast transmitters on eBay, and the FCC doesn't bat an eye.  Complain to eBay, and they play dumb. I attempted to sell a popular ham rig that could be used on CB illegally, and mentioned in my ad that the CB was disabled... it was reported and my auction was pulled. Yet, I have reported numerous auctions for much more blatant violations, and eBay never takes action. 

Who really cares how much gain an amplifier has?  We should be concerned about IMD (linearity issues) and not gain!  Idiots can use two amplifiers in cascade... and CB loons do!  The laws do NOT preclude a ham from owning, or home brewing, an amplifier that exceeds the current gain ratings.

The current FCC method for regulating PEP power is at best a joke!  AM operators are forced to keep their carrier power at 1/4th maximum PEP?  Was this on purpose, or a result of laws that were not thought out?

Many of the current ham regulations need to be rewritten. And whatever laws remaining on the books need to be enforced. So far the illegal amplifier manufacturers are skirting the law, and as much as some of you fools might hate MFJ--they have played by the rules and produce legal products. That adds to their bottom line.



CB has moved to ham bands today and brought some QRM with it. THey do not need to again rewrite rules, they need to throw new rules and revert to old because changing it is what messed it all up. As far as FCC's teeth to enforce, the GOP congress defunded them for enforcement long ago. They believe is a self regulated free for all.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4KOE on July 26, 2016, 09:28:44 AM
"A 3kw amplifier would exacerbate that problem further more either maxing out a 240 line current limit or requiring installation of a 400+ volt 3 phase line into the shack to power a 75lb transformer. I think 1500 watts is perfect as it stands and the direction of going to very high gain amplification is a great move ultimately."

Not true. You can run a huge 5 KW amplifier/appliance on 240 volts, 1 phase. Do the math...

For comparison, a typical electric range is around 8 KW.

5000w / 240V = 20.8A

Using the NEC safety factor (assuming continuous duty), 20.8 x 1.25 = 26A, give or take.

Install a 30 ampere, 2 pole breaker in your panel. Your circuit, assuming a short run, will consist of 2 No. 10 and 1 No. 12 (G). A neutral is not required on the primary of the amp transformer.

The key here is diversity. I doubt a 3 KW appliance will overload your house service unless you plan to run all your big appliances simultaneously.




Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KOP on July 26, 2016, 09:33:20 AM
I did not know that just in the learning of Morse code would equip every radio amateur with the magical ability to tune a tube based amplifier.

I disagree, back then test was harder and code meant you just could not sit down and take a multiple guess test that you can see questions before hand from a pool. You had to work at it with time on air and using equipment with it and gained experiance

Sorry, I am a "no code extra", it must make me dumb or something.

A no code CB/Extra is nearly as easy to get as a old CB ticket. Most would not be Extra's under old rules. Pretty soon there will be just one ticket that will be mail order with no "test" and CB will be officially reborn. I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it. Today Extra means nothing really because it is so easy to get.

I'll not justify my Extra class license to you or anyone . I'll not support it with a GROL and code element nor parade my education in front of AF7XT or my "experiance" behind it .
I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...
§97.1   Basis and purpose.
(a) Recognition ...
I have no idea on your activities here so I can not and will not speak to it .
(b) Continuation ...
Hard to do if you insist on working in a vacuum .
(c) Encouragement ...
Failure in the extreme . Fortunately I need no encouragement from you or anyone . 
(d) Expansion ...
Hard to do if you consistently believe that all new amateurs are somewhat less compared to your experience . This is a welcome that I rarely experience locally or face to face .
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill...
If you can not or refuse to enhance goodwill within amateur radio how can anyone expect you to do so internationally ?
§97.101 (a) Just , fail .

Last but not least , take another shot at AA4HA , Tisha Hayes , and see how many friends it gets you . One less I'm sure .

Yet another "no code CB/Extra".

AF7XT Dennis



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on July 26, 2016, 09:42:25 AM
Quote
Not true. You can run a huge 5 KW amplifier/appliance on 240 volts, 1 phase. Do the math...

For comparison, a typical electric range is around 8 KW.

5000w / 240V = 20.8A

Using the NEC safety factor (assuming continuous duty), 20.8 x 1.25 = 26A, give or take.

You neglected to account for the ~40% efficiency of the amp. So the amperage would be closer to 60 amps.

But then the FCC isn't considering a power limit increase.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on July 26, 2016, 09:43:07 AM
 I enjoy talking to the new hams. But, if the code was still in place most of them would have never been general class. There is no way to cram for it, you have to do the work. As far as technical capability, a lot of the no code hams are better technicians than a lot of the 20WPM extras. It is ironic I suppose when a 20 WPM extra gets a CB'er to fix his amp for him.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W8JX on July 26, 2016, 09:53:49 AM

I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...


I am not. A Extra was a goal to work for once upon a time and stood for something once. It is a give away now and more of a CB Extra class ticket than anything. I cannot change rules for sure but I do tire of those that defend a CB Extra being the equal accomplishment and bragging how they got their extra and earned it when they really do not have a clue what a Extra once stood for. Heck with today's rules I would not of gotten my Novice when I was 14 years old and worked my way thru General, Advanced and Extra over the years, I would of started as a Extra....

There was a time when most hams were technically inclined as it required a good grasp on thing to get a ticket including drawing schematics as mentioned earlier and calculating circuit component values for resonance but today it is nearly a mail order ticket and I have little doubt that one day it will become a test  free ticket and the modern day CB and the death of Ham radio...


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KOP on July 26, 2016, 09:55:06 AM
Back on topic ...
When a device as technically superior as the BLF188XR appears it would seem superfluous and a shame to have to add additional circuitry to limit gain and swamp the input when it can reach its full output with as little as 2.4 watts drive at 108mhz and possibly less at HF frequencies . Good IMD , surprisingly good linearity for a transistor of any kind (yes I know a MOSFET specifically LDMOS) welcome availability of good 50VDC supplies and excellent efficiency limited by a 15db gain rule is ludicrous in the extreme .

I'll build one long before this is settled in part 97 . Any objection from the usual sources about my 24db gain amplifier being illegal and not type accepted for use in amateur service ?

AF7XT Dennis    


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: AA4HA on July 26, 2016, 11:05:54 AM
You could run completely silly amounts of amplifier output, almost on continuous duty with even a tube based amp at modest efficiencies (let's say 65%). Most amateurs do not have antenna/ feedline systems that are really up to the task or receivers have have the selectivity and low noise floor to get close to reciprocity on an RF path (that is assuming that it is a symmetric propagation path, some aren't). It just makes them "alligators (all mouth, no ears).

It reminds me of the article that mentions "if I can hear em I can work em", that too is based upon a misconception about how radio propagation works and the assumption that the receiver conditions will be equal on both ends (they aren't, there can be a local noise source on one end or the other).

But back to the original discussion regarding a 15 dB gain limit on an amplifier; For example I have a PRC-174s greenie that has a (charitable) 20 watt transmitter output (or slightly more than 43 dB). If I had a 15 dB gain amplifier my power output (at the coax connector of the amp) would be 58 dB. This translates in to around 625 watts; quite the hefty output for a backpack radio on an amplifier. Of course this does not account for feedline losses, antenna (in)-efficiencies or whatever radiation pattern that antenna has to put power where it is more useful than just heating up clouds directly over your head.

How much more do you really need for gain? It is likely that the poor little transmitter is a bit of a splatter-box as it is.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 26, 2016, 01:18:08 PM
Quote
Not true. You can run a huge 5 KW amplifier/appliance on 240 volts, 1 phase. Do the math...

For comparison, a typical electric range is around 8 KW.

5000w / 240V = 20.8A

Using the NEC safety factor (assuming continuous duty), 20.8 x 1.25 = 26A, give or take.

You neglected to account for the ~40% efficiency of the amp. So the amperage would be closer to 60 amps.

But then the FCC isn't considering a power limit increase.

You beat me to it  ;D

It is still possible but you better hope the AC, electric stove or the Hot water heater don't turn on at the same time your having your QSO ;D


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on July 26, 2016, 02:00:49 PM
I ran 5000 watts PEP output  consistently for years on 75 meters with a two tube Alpha 77SX and an out board 3 amp CCS Peter Dahl transformer and later with an 8K Henry.  Never had a minutes problem with either. Just a standard 200 amp residential service.

My back up heat strips in my heat pump air handler are 15 KW .

I have a 10KW electric resistance heater in my shop.

Not sure what some of you are thinking.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 26, 2016, 04:31:06 PM
I guess it all depends on how your house is wired.  My main breaker is 100A which is pretty standard for most homes.  I know the bigger houses today use 200A breakers.  Also the outlets that are in a typical house for 220V are 30A.  The only exception are at the stoves and hot water heater which I think are 50A plugs.

73s
Rob




Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on July 26, 2016, 04:47:55 PM
I guess it all depends on how your house is wired.  My main breaker is 100A which is pretty standard for most homes.  I know the bigger houses today use 200A breakers.  Also the outlets that are in a typical house for 220V are 30A.  The only exception are at the stoves and hot water heater which I think are 50A plugs.

73s
Rob





Yeah, my panel is 200 amp which is probably most common now although large houses can be 400 and more.

You can run a dedicated circuit for your amplifier, match the breaker, wire size, and outlet NEMA configuration for whatever you need.

In my case the main breaker panel is in the shack, so not much to it.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K2GWK on July 26, 2016, 08:50:08 PM

I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...


I am not. A Extra was a goal to work for once upon a time and stood for something once. It is a give away now and more of a CB Extra class ticket than anything. I cannot change rules for sure but I do tire of those that defend a CB Extra being the equal accomplishment and bragging how they got their extra and earned it when they really do not have a clue what a Extra once stood for. Heck with today's rules I would not of gotten my Novice when I was 14 years old and worked my way thru General, Advanced and Extra over the years, I would of started as a Extra....

There was a time when most hams were technically inclined as it required a good grasp on thing to get a ticket including drawing schematics as mentioned earlier and calculating circuit component values for resonance but today it is nearly a mail order ticket and I have little doubt that one day it will become a test  free ticket and the modern day CB and the death of Ham radio...

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on July 26, 2016, 10:01:04 PM

I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...


I am not. A Extra was a goal to work for once upon a time and stood for something once. It is a give away now and more of a CB Extra class ticket than anything. I cannot change rules for sure but I do tire of those that defend a CB Extra being the equal accomplishment and bragging how they got their extra and earned it when they really do not have a clue what a Extra once stood for. Heck with today's rules I would not of gotten my Novice when I was 14 years old and worked my way thru General, Advanced and Extra over the years, I would of started as a Extra....

There was a time when most hams were technically inclined as it required a good grasp on thing to get a ticket including drawing schematics as mentioned earlier and calculating circuit component values for resonance but today it is nearly a mail order ticket and I have little doubt that one day it will become a test  free ticket and the modern day CB and the death of Ham radio...

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

Good for you. But, if you had an EE in 1976 and ended up with a no code license one would suspect that you were unwilling to do the work to learn the code and waited until they dropped that requirement.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 26, 2016, 10:50:01 PM
Good for you. But, if you had an EE in 1976 and ended up with a no code license one would suspect that you were unwilling to do the work to learn the code and waited until they dropped that requirement.

If ham radio was what it was in 1976 then I would agree.  Sorry to say but the reality is that today ham radio is a fringe hobby that is typically not even recognized by most people and is definitely not considered cutting edge or high tech like it was in 1976.  Therefore the incentive to learn code is really really low for most new hams.  I can imagine in 1976 it was looked on in a much different light but times change.  The EE of today has to be able to do things that are way beyond what an EE from 1976 had to do and thats simply because the amount, variety and complexity of components has gone up 1000 fold.  I know, I am an EE also and while at the start I had only a theoretical understanding of HF circuitry because it was not something I ever needed to do in my job.  It did not take very long to figure it out and start repairing my own equipment and buying severally damaged radios and SS amps on the cheap on eBay and fixing them.  I won't touch stuff with tubes in them simply because my instinctive safety training in HV is not good enough for me to risk it. I admire the guys who are good at working with and fixing tube amplifiers. Even JX who is often one of my eHam nemesis.

CW is great but it is just another mode and not knowing it is no big deal.

73
Rob


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6JH on July 27, 2016, 01:03:43 AM
Do 5 wpm Extras count, or are they the same as a no-code Extra?  ;)

I actually got a Novice in 1977, but got sucked into the vhf/220/uhf & repeater trap with a Technician license for many years. Got my General via the grandfather upgrade, and took the Advanced and Extra exams in one day. It didn't occur to me that I missed any questions - maybe because I'm also an EE since 1980. Working on medical products, doing ic design and wireless low power telemetry.

And back on topic: I think the FCC should eliminate the gain requirement. There are other ways to keep an amp from operating on 11m.

73
K6JH


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 27, 2016, 01:32:08 AM
I don't want anybody to think that I don't respect Hams that are proficient in CW.
It's dam hard to learn and takes more practice than I am willing to put in.
Also learning it and keeping your proficieny up is a must. This all required time and patience that I lack.

I just don't agree that it makes one operator a totally better ham than others without CW knowledge.  This is after all a multi faceted hobby and being an EE or a good tech makes you just as usefull as a ham with CW under his belt.

As for the gain limit, I doubt the fcc is going to change it anytime soon.

73
Rob



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ZS5WC on July 27, 2016, 04:11:59 AM
 :)I run the Expert 1K-FA and with 10w drive I achieve 600w out on the Half Power setting.
I also know the gain is in excess of 18dB below 20m, but have never had any overdrive issues.

Reason being the Expert Amp is a clever bit of kit, greatly using fuzzy logic for most of its' functions, and is almost impossible to destroy OR over drive if you connect the required cables.
Importantly, the PTT  and ALC connections are required to keep the amp safe, and the TX signal clean.
The user manual also states you can leave the exiter's drive level at MAX--(e.g) 100w, and the amp. ALC will "learn" the drive level and correct via the fuzzy logic alc loop to reduce exiter drive.
I have tried it and it works, but I run 15W max rather to achieve required output.

The signal is clean, not overdriven, and amp is happy.
I think the outdated rule of 15dB gain could be retired, since modern amps are a lot more "intelligent" than their earlier cousins.

73 de William
ZS4L / ZS5WC


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K2GWK on July 27, 2016, 05:13:49 AM

I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...


I am not. A Extra was a goal to work for once upon a time and stood for something once. It is a give away now and more of a CB Extra class ticket than anything. I cannot change rules for sure but I do tire of those that defend a CB Extra being the equal accomplishment and bragging how they got their extra and earned it when they really do not have a clue what a Extra once stood for. Heck with today's rules I would not of gotten my Novice when I was 14 years old and worked my way thru General, Advanced and Extra over the years, I would of started as a Extra....

There was a time when most hams were technically inclined as it required a good grasp on thing to get a ticket including drawing schematics as mentioned earlier and calculating circuit component values for resonance but today it is nearly a mail order ticket and I have little doubt that one day it will become a test  free ticket and the modern day CB and the death of Ham radio...

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

Good for you. But, if you had an EE in 1976 and ended up with a no code license one would suspect that you were unwilling to do the work to learn the code and waited until they dropped that requirement.


Actually I got my tech license a long time ago but family and career kept me pretty busy. When I became an empty nester I had time to spend in the hobby I upgraded my license. I love amateur and sometimes regret not participating for all those years but family and career comes first.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on July 27, 2016, 07:53:14 AM

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

My hat is off to anyone who was able to earn a degree... but, at one time a ham license held some value with employers, as did the former FCC commercial licenses. Been there, done that.

I don't think it is quite accurate that anyone would expect a person's technical abilities to be based on the class of ham license they hold in this day and age.  A degree is a degree... a ham license isn't a qualifier as to one's technical prowess in this day and age.  And to be fair, back in the sixties, we had FCC First Telephones who were able to pass after attending two week cram courses. Same for many hams who had extras, they couldn't hold a soldering iron without burning their fingers.

Pete


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM4AH on July 27, 2016, 12:10:46 PM

I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...


I am not. A Extra was a goal to work for once upon a time and stood for something once. It is a give away now and more of a CB Extra class ticket than anything. I cannot change rules for sure but I do tire of those that defend a CB Extra being the equal accomplishment and bragging how they got their extra and earned it when they really do not have a clue what a Extra once stood for. Heck with today's rules I would not of gotten my Novice when I was 14 years old and worked my way thru General, Advanced and Extra over the years, I would of started as a Extra....

There was a time when most hams were technically inclined as it required a good grasp on thing to get a ticket including drawing schematics as mentioned earlier and calculating circuit component values for resonance but today it is nearly a mail order ticket and I have little doubt that one day it will become a test  free ticket and the modern day CB and the death of Ham radio...

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

Good for you. But, if you had an EE in 1976 and ended up with a no code license one would suspect that you were unwilling to do the work to learn the code and waited until they dropped that requirement.


Actually I got my tech license a long time ago but family and career kept me pretty busy. When I became an empty nester I had time to spend in the hobby I upgraded my license. I love amateur and sometimes regret not participating for all those years but family and career comes first.



My apologies. A far as that goes I know some 20 WPM extras that couldn't copy 5 WPM if their life depended on it. But, that is another story.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KM1H on July 27, 2016, 12:31:46 PM

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

All that fancy edumecation and experience and still cant spell ::)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6JH on July 27, 2016, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from:  link=topic=109014.msg940584#msg940584 date=1469647906

I am sick and tired of hearing that no code extras are not technical. I am a no code extra who got his EE degree back in 1976. I have designed low noise amplifiers, been a network analyzer and spectrum analyzer applications engineer and have sold RF and microwave test equipment for HP, Tektronix and Rohde & Schwarz. I have forgotten more than you will ever know. I wish you would just stop making these rediculous generalizations. You make yourself look like an ass.

All that fancy edumecation and experience and still cant spell ::)


People that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!   :D :D

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Edumacation (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Edumacation)

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rediculous (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rediculous)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4WJA on July 27, 2016, 03:03:11 PM
This thread has been going on now for a few months....and has wandered far afield.... :)
I was hoping to address the original subject, and not get deep into the drift wood...


Although, on the surface, the technical and practical arguments to eliminate the "max 15db gain rule", seem sound....
There almost certainly will be some unfortunate consequences that some here might not have thought of!  
Some serious transmit IMD issues, are highly probable....
(btw, if someone in the these 90+ posts, over the past 3 months, HAS mentioned this....well, I'm sorry to bring it up....but I just don't have it in me to read arguments about who is "more qualified" to be a ham...:), so I've skipped a lot of this discussion...)

Please understand that nobody is saying that a high-gain amplifier cannot be linear, nor that its owners could not use the same care that they are supposed to use now to assure their signals do not cause interference to others...

No, rather, if you look at the real world of current and past "low-power" / QRP rigs (primarily SSB or multimode, like the IC-703, Argonaut V, or the MFJ-940), especially the low-power SDR rigs like the Flex-1500....and just look at what the results might be when these rigs are used to drive the truly horrible IMD performing  Expert 1.3K-FA amplifier (reviewed by G3SJX, in the July 2015 RadCom), to its full output!!!  (or even the surprisingly poor transmit IMD for many "100-watt rigs" when operated at only 5 - 10 watts....and certainly the fact that the wideband transmit noise from most of these "100-watt rigs" is NOT reduced along with the carrier power, meaning that there would be lots of "hash" coming out of these combos even on CW...)
Even 'Linear amplifiers' are not necessarily so. G3SJX reviewed the Expert 1.3K-FA amplifier in July RadCom. He found the 3rd order IMD at outputs of 1.3 to 1.5kW to be  -20 to -26dB relative to PEP - that's -13 to -20dB relative to one tone of a 2 tone signal. At 1kW, it was -30dB  rel PEP  i.e. -24dB relative to tone.

Not exactly brilliant

RE: What HF Amp Has The Best Intermod Figures ?
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,104518.msg866058.html#msg866058


RE: Tube vs. SS / Amplifier IMD Tests / Tirode vs. Tetrode vs. Solid-State
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,100600.msg866050.html#msg866050

{Note that the Expert 1.3K-FA results are SINIFICANTLY worse than most HF amps...the 1.3K-FA's 3rd order is 12db worse that Expert's own 2K-FA...and 20db worse than their own 1K-FA...not to mention about 30db worse than most triode tube amps!!
And, these are the guys that want to lower our standards!!!!
Oh, boy....:)}



Have a look at the transmit IMD from some of these "QRP rigs"....and while they don't bother many on-the-air with their 5-10 watts (and many used in portable locations, backpacking, etc., with compromise antennas), what if you took at rig with a transmit IMD3 spec of only -22db PEP (or worse), and used it to drive the Expert 1.3K-FA to its full output, with its horrible IMD specs!!
(and then add in the guys mic gain being cranked up....and let's hope he's only got some compromise wire antenna!)
 
From ARRL Product Review Tests:
3rd/5th/ (and7th/9th) Order IMD products (vs. PEP) for various "QRP" rigs...

Flex-1500
-22/-38/-48/-48


IC-703
-24/-46


TenTec Argonaut V
-25/-41


MFJ-9420
-19/-28


Ranger RCI-2950
-21/-37


{note that most of these results are 10db to 15db worse that most "100-watt" rigs...}


And/or consider both the poor IMD and relatively high wideband noise, from many "100-watt rigs" when operated at 5 - 10 watts output...
Yes, you do get an IMD improvement at 50 - 60 watts, versus 100 watts out, for most of our 100-watt rigs....but many actually have slightly poorer transmit IMD at low levels of 5 - 10 watts output...
Not to mention the wideband transmit noise, which is usually exceeded by the keying waveform induced width in CW operations, when carrier output is reduced by 10db - 16db, the wideband transmit noise isn't reduced and can now become problematic to others on-the-air!!!

There are some technical reasons that the amateur radio community should oppose this proposal....and the fact that the ones making the proposal are citing the amp that has some of the worst IMD performance of any HF ham amp ever, is very telling to the "concern" they (Expert) have for the Amateur Radio Service!!
In my opinion, you can't get more blatant disregard of "good engineering" and "good amateur practice", than to make the worst IMD amp ever, and then complain that those using the worst IMD spec'd exciters can't drive it to its "full output", when you know the truly horrible results will be!!
And, some of you here wish to argue who is qualified to be a ham, extra, etc....why are you not being critical of these guys, instead....and leave you fellow hams alone???

The FCC has put on public notice and invited comments on a Petition
for Rule Making (RM-11767), filed on behalf of an amateur amplifier
distributor, which seeks to revise the Amateur Service rules
regarding maximum permissible amplifier gain. Expert Linears America
LLC of Magnolia, Texas, which distributes linears manufactured by
SPE in Italy, wants the FCC to eliminate the 15 dB gain limitation
on amateur amplifiers, spelled out in Part 97.317(a)(2). Expert
asserts that there should be no gain limitation at all on amplifiers
sold or used in the Amateur Service.


"There is no technical or regulatory reason [that] an amplifier
capable of being driven to full legal output by even a fraction of a
watt should not be available to Amateur Radio operators in the
United States," Expert said in its Petition.
 While there might not be Amateur Radio Service regulatory reasons (as the FCC does NOT regulate amateur radio transmit IMD), there ARE "technical" reasons, as I lay out here...


Expert pointed to its Model 1.3K FA amplifier as an example of a
linear "inherently capable of considerably more than 15 dB of
amplification," which would make it a suitable match for low-power
transceivers now on the market having output power on the order of
10 W.


Have we all just given up on having some clean bands / clean signals???

We have rig manufacturers touting their radio's incredible receive IMD specs, when the limiting factor in HF SSB Voice comms on our ham bands, for just about ANY HF rig these days (including $500 entry-level rigs), is the TRANSMIT IMD from others radios, NOT our receiver's IMD specs!!!

And, we've got some hams arguing who is "qualified"....all-the-while, we've got Oz behind the curtain manipulating the entire scene and about to make our on-air lives worse??



I do hope that my words here do not spur controversy, but rather encourage you all to look at what is going on here...

73,
John,  KA4WJA
 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 27, 2016, 03:19:44 PM

Have we all just given up on having some clean bands / clean signals???

73,
John,  KA4WJA
 

John I am not trying to take away from a really great post that you made, but I think the bottom line is that most of us do not believe that an Italian company is going to swing the FCC into changing the current gain limits.   To me it personally seems more likely that this filing is a desperate attempt by expert SPE and it will go absolutely nowhere.

73s
Rob


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: K6JH on July 27, 2016, 04:49:29 PM
Amplifier gain is a separate issue from amplifier IMD. In terms of gain, it doesn't matter whether that extra gain from low level stages is in the output stage of a 100W transmitter, or in an outboard Amp after a QRP transmitter.

But I do agree - maybe it's time to consider more stringent TX IMD and Amplifer IMD regulations. Although we likely won't want to pay for it.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4WJA on July 27, 2016, 05:12:25 PM
Jim,
You are correct, of course....
But, if you read what I wrote above, and the corresponding info, you'll see that my argument has nothing to do with the "gain" of any particular amp, but rather with the horrible specs of the new Expert LDMOS amps....and how allowing 1300 - 1500 watts output from one of these Expert 1.3k-FA, with 5 watts - 10 watts of drive, from some of these very rigs that would be the worst performing in terms of transmit spectral purity!
Amplifier gain is a separate issue from amplifier IMD. In terms of gain, it doesn't matter whether that extra gain from low level stages is in the output stage of a 100W transmitter, or in an outboard Amp after a QRP transmitter.

But I do agree - maybe it's time to consider more stringent TX IMD and Amplifer IMD regulations. Although we likely won't want to pay for it.
But, Jim, you are assuming there are IMD regulations for the Amateur Radio Service in the US, which there is not...
It is up to us, the ham operator, to make purchase / design / construction decisions AND know how to use / adjust our equipment accordingly to maintain our signals do not interfere with others and with "good engineering" and "good amateur practice"...
If you read the referenced discussions, you'll see what I'm talking about....

In a nutshell, it is up to us!
And, if we can hold these guys' feet to the fire, maybe we can get them to actually make decent amps....the devices are capable of good results, but if the customer doesn't demand it, they won't build it!  :)


Have a look...
Please understand that nobody is saying that a high-gain amplifier cannot be linear, nor that its owners could not use the same care that they are supposed to use now to assure their signals do not cause interference to others...

No, rather, if you look at the real world of current and past "low-power" / QRP rigs (primarily SSB or multimode, like the IC-703, Argonaut V, or the MFJ-940), especially the low-power SDR rigs like the Flex-1500....and just look at what the results might be when these rigs are used to drive the truly horrible IMD performing  Expert 1.3K-FA amplifier (reviewed by G3SJX, in the July 2015 RadCom), to its full output!!!  (or even the surprisingly poor transmit IMD for many "100-watt rigs" when operated at only 5 - 10 watts....and certainly the fact that the wideband transmit noise from most of these "100-watt rigs" is NOT reduced along with the carrier power, meaning that there would be lots of "hash" coming out of these combos even on CW...)

Even 'Linear amplifiers' are not necessarily so. G3SJX reviewed the Expert 1.3K-FA amplifier in July RadCom. He found the 3rd order IMD at outputs of 1.3 to 1.5kW to be  -20 to -26dB relative to PEP - that's -13 to -20dB relative to one tone of a 2 tone signal. At 1kW, it was -30dB  rel PEP  i.e. -24dB relative to tone.

Not exactly brilliant

RE: What HF Amp Has The Best Intermod Figures ?
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,104518.msg866058.html#msg866058


RE: Tube vs. SS / Amplifier IMD Tests / Tirode vs. Tetrode vs. Solid-State
http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,100600.msg866050.html#msg866050

{Note that the Expert 1.3K-FA results are SINIFICANTLY worse than most HF amps...the 1.3K-FA's 3rd order is 12db worse that Expert's own 2K-FA...and 20db worse than their own 1K-FA...not to mention about 30db worse than most triode tube amps!!
And, these are the guys that want to lower our standards!!!!
Oh, boy....:)}



Have a look at the transmit IMD from some of these "QRP rigs"....and while they don't bother many on-the-air with their 5-10 watts (and many used in portable locations, backpacking, etc., with compromise antennas), what if you took at rig with a transmit IMD3 spec of only -22db PEP (or worse), and used it to drive the Expert 1.3K-FA to its full output, with its horrible IMD specs!!
(and then add in the guys mic gain being cranked up....and let's hope he's only got some compromise wire antenna!)
 
From ARRL Product Review Tests:
3rd/5th/ (and7th/9th) Order IMD products (vs. PEP) for various "QRP" rigs...

Flex-1500
-22/-38/-48/-48


IC-703
-24/-46


TenTec Argonaut V
-25/-41


MFJ-9420
-19/-28


Ranger RCI-2950
-21/-37


{note that most of these results are 10db to 15db worse that most "100-watt" rigs...}


And/or consider both the poor IMD and relatively high wideband noise, from many "100-watt rigs" when operated at 5 - 10 watts output...
Yes, you do get an IMD improvement at 50 - 60 watts, versus 100 watts out, for most of our 100-watt rigs....but many actually have slightly poorer transmit IMD at low levels of 5 - 10 watts output...
Not to mention the wideband transmit noise, which is usually exceeded by the keying waveform induced width in CW operations, when carrier output is reduced by 10db - 16db, the wideband transmit noise isn't reduced and can now become problematic to others on-the-air!!!

There are some technical reasons that the amateur radio community should oppose this proposal....and the fact that the ones making the proposal are citing the amp that has some of the worst IMD performance of any HF ham amp ever, is very telling to the "concern" they (Expert) have for the Amateur Radio Service!!
In my opinion, you can't get more blatant disregard of "good engineering" and "good amateur practice", than to make the worst IMD amp ever, and then complain that those using the worst IMD spec'd exciters can't drive it to its "full output", when you know the truly horrible results will be!!
And, some of you here wish to argue who is qualified to be a ham, extra, etc....why are you not being critical of these guys, instead....and leave you fellow hams alone???

The FCC has put on public notice and invited comments on a Petition
for Rule Making (RM-11767), filed on behalf of an amateur amplifier
distributor, which seeks to revise the Amateur Service rules
regarding maximum permissible amplifier gain. Expert Linears America
LLC of Magnolia, Texas, which distributes linears manufactured by
SPE in Italy, wants the FCC to eliminate the 15 dB gain limitation
on amateur amplifiers, spelled out in Part 97.317(a)(2). Expert
asserts that there should be no gain limitation at all on amplifiers
sold or used in the Amateur Service.


"There is no technical or regulatory reason [that] an amplifier
capable of being driven to full legal output by even a fraction of a
watt should not be available to Amateur Radio operators in the
United States," Expert said in its Petition.
 While there might not be Amateur Radio Service regulatory reasons (as the FCC does NOT regulate amateur radio transmit IMD), there ARE "technical" reasons, as I lay out here...


Expert pointed to its Model 1.3K FA amplifier as an example of a
linear "inherently capable of considerably more than 15 dB of
amplification," which would make it a suitable match for low-power
transceivers now on the market having output power on the order of
10 W.


Have we all just given up on having some clean bands / clean signals???

We have rig manufacturers touting their radio's incredible receive IMD specs, when the limiting factor in HF SSB Voice comms on our ham bands, for just about ANY HF rig these days (including $500 entry-level rigs), is the TRANSMIT IMD from others radios, NOT our receiver's IMD specs!!!

And, we've got some hams arguing who is "qualified"....all-the-while, we've got Oz behind the curtain manipulating the entire scene and about to make our on-air lives worse??



I do hope that my words here do not spur controversy, but rather encourage you all to look at what is going on here...

73,
John,  KA4WJA
 


73,
John,  KA4WJA


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ZS5WC on July 27, 2016, 09:47:49 PM
 ??? Everyone just loves to hate the Expert amps-I would just like to know why mine is super clean?.
Is it because I don't drive the living blazes out of it.... -that would probably be it!..

Check this PDF list of QST rigs and amps tested--scroll down for the amps, and the  Expert 1K came in at a respectable -43dB below PEP.
In my mind that is significantly better than most exiters.

http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.pdf

73 de William
ZS4L / ZS5WC


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on July 28, 2016, 07:33:49 AM
Amplifier gain is a separate issue from amplifier IMD. In terms of gain, it doesn't matter whether that extra gain from low level stages is in the output stage of a 100W transmitter, or in an outboard Amp after a QRP transmitter.

But I do agree - maybe it's time to consider more stringent TX IMD and Amplifer IMD regulations. Although we likely won't want to pay for it.

You hit the nail on the head.  But regardless, any idiot can overdrive an amp, or run the mike gain too high.  It is pretty hard to idiot proof the hobby.  But, basic parameters such as IMD and ALC overshoot probably need to be regulated, since the manufacturers don't seem to care.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4WJA on July 28, 2016, 12:38:55 PM
William,
Although I never intended to steer this discussion into one about transmit IMD, I should've realized that is what would happen when I commented about the horrible IMD specs of the new Expert amp(s)... :)
But..

But, I don't think I'm "hating" Expert amps, but rather the Expert 1.3K-FA amp!
(which is their new LDMOS amp)
And, I specifically commented positively on their older 50v FET amps, the 2K-FA and the 1K-FA...(please have another look)

It was Expert themselves citing their 1.3K-FA amp in their proposal...
And, with its truly horrible IMD, this is what got my attention!

[And, reading the test results directly from the ARRL Product Review pdf's show these results for their other amps...
SPE Expert 1K-FA (50v FET's)  =  42/43/49/56
SPE Expert 2K-FA (50v FET's)  =  32/39/49/60

But, since SPE Expert was citing their new 1.3K-FA, with is -20 IMD3 @ 1500 watts, and  -26 IMD3 @ 1300 watts, that is what I was commenting on...]

??? Everyone just loves to hate the Expert amps-I would just like to know why mine is super clean?.
Is it because I don't drive the living blazes out of it.... -that would probably be it!..

Check this PDF list of QST rigs and amps tested--scroll down for the amps, and the  Expert 1K came in at a respectable -43dB below PEP.
In my mind that is significantly better than most exiters.

http://www.remeeus.eu/hamradio/pa1hr/productreview.pdf

73 de William
ZS4L / ZS5WC

Please have a look again....
Please understand that nobody is saying that a high-gain amplifier cannot be linear, nor that its owners could not use the same care that they are supposed to use now to assure their signals do not cause interference to others...

Even 'Linear amplifiers' are not necessarily so. G3SJX reviewed the Expert 1.3K-FA amplifier in July RadCom. He found the 3rd order IMD at outputs of 1.3 to 1.5kW to be  -20 to -26dB relative to PEP - that's -13 to -20dB relative to one tone of a 2 tone signal. At 1kW, it was -30dB  rel PEP  i.e. -24dB relative to tone.

Not exactly brilliant

{Note that the Expert 1.3K-FA results are SIGNIFICANTLY worse than most HF amps...the 1.3K-FA's 3rd order is 12db worse that Expert's own 2K-FA...and 20db worse than their own 1K-FA...not to mention about 30db worse than most triode tube amps!!
And, these are the guys that want to lower our standards!!!!
Oh, boy....:)}


There are some technical reasons that the amateur radio community should oppose this proposal....and the fact that the ones making the proposal are citing the amp that has some of the worst IMD performance of any HF ham amp ever, is very telling to the "concern" they (Expert) have for the Amateur Radio Service!!
In my opinion, you can't get more blatant disregard of "good engineering" and "good amateur practice", than to make the worst IMD amp ever, and then complain that those using the worst IMD spec'd exciters can't drive it to its "full output", when you know the truly horrible results will be!


The FCC has put on public notice and invited comments on a Petition
for Rule Making (RM-11767), filed on behalf of an amateur amplifier
distributor, which seeks to revise the Amateur Service rules
regarding maximum permissible amplifier gain. Expert Linears America
LLC of Magnolia, Texas, which distributes linears manufactured by
SPE in Italy, wants the FCC to eliminate the 15 dB gain limitation
on amateur amplifiers, spelled out in Part 97.317(a)(2). Expert
asserts that there should be no gain limitation at all on amplifiers
sold or used in the Amateur Service.

Expert pointed to its Model 1.3K FA amplifier as an example of a
linear
"inherently capable of considerably more than 15 dB of
amplification," which would make it a suitable match for low-power
transceivers now on the market having output power on the order of
10 W.


73,
John,  KA4WJA


I hope this clarifies things...

73,
John,  KA4WJA


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4WJA on July 28, 2016, 01:13:31 PM
Peter,
As I just wrote above, I should've realized I was opening up the IMD (Pandora) Box!  :)

Amplifier gain is a separate issue from amplifier IMD. In terms of gain, it doesn't matter whether that extra gain from low level stages is in the output stage of a 100W transmitter, or in an outboard Amp after a QRP transmitter.

But I do agree - maybe it's time to consider more stringent TX IMD and Amplifer IMD regulations. Although we likely won't want to pay for it.

You hit the nail on the head.  But regardless, any idiot can overdrive an amp, or run the mike gain too high.  It is pretty hard to idiot proof the hobby.  But, basic parameters such as IMD and ALC overshoot probably need to be regulated, since the manufacturers don't seem to care.

But, seriously....
Since there are NO IMD specs/regulations for the Amateur Radio Service, and isn't likely ever to be any (at least in my opinion, not in the near future), it is up to US, the ham radio operators to demand gear that is clean, linear, and meets our needs!!

Yes, any idiot can run the mic gain too high, overdrive their amp, not know how to tune it, etc...
BUT...
But, my point (as it has been now for > decade) is that why not have clean transmitters (and amps) to start with, rather than crappy ones??
Why should we pollute our airwaves with trash that we could eliminate if the transmitters and amps were better??

As I have rambled on and on about for years, this isn't about "12 volt PA's" or "solid-state PA's"....
It's about well designed and constructed PA's versus poorly designed and constructed PA's!!!

I own and use a modern IF-DSP 12 volt PA transceiver that beats EVERY ham rig made in the past 50 years in terms of transmit IMD and spectral purity (except for the Yaesu rigs when run in Class A, where they beat it a little bit)...
And, if you look at some of the solid-state amps, some have better IMD numbers than some tube amps (not many SS amps beat 'em, but some do....and certainly do better than those guys running a 4CX1600!! or some other piss-poor tube!)

But, unless we the ham community demand these better rigs and amps, we will get crap!! 
And, we will get folks touting how great this crap is, because it can do "all these wonderful things".....but if it still tastes like crap, it's still crap....

Isn't the first rule of transmitting on the ham bands to get the best, cleanest, strongest signal possible....get it to the desire destination, and have them send their signal back to you, the same way....without interfering with anyone else's use of the bands???
Yes??

Why not start with a clean transmitter, and a linear amp (that doesn't adversely effect your transmit IMD), and if someone runs their mic gain too high we can politely inform them of their mistake and things will get better on-the-air...
If we end up with lots of crappy transmitters (like many of the low-power QRP rigs that were never designed to be amplified to 1500 watts), driving amps with -20db IMD3 specs, we will have some serious issues on the bands!!!




Oppss...
Sorry for the rant...
I just got carried away!
(bad day here! :( )

I'll leave it at that.

 73,
John,  KA4WJA




Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD6VXI on July 28, 2016, 05:24:23 PM
Expert amps need to be derated by half to have acceptable IMD.

I honestly believe expert is waiting for everyone to have predistortion.....   Then their wildly exaggerated power claims can come to fruition.

Expert markets to HAMS.   because no other service could a cent their power claims and garbage spewed at those levels.

--Shane
KD6VXI


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD8MJR on July 29, 2016, 02:21:11 PM
Expert amps need to be derated by half to have acceptable IMD.

I honestly believe expert is waiting for everyone to have predistortion.....   Then their wildly exaggerated power claims can come to fruition.

Expert markets to HAMS.   because no other service could a cent their power claims and garbage spewed at those levels.

--Shane
KD6VXI


+1
Expert uses the same power margins that MFJ uses on their solid state amps.  That alone speaks volumes since these are not low cost amplifiers like what MFJ sells.

73s
Rob


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: N6YFM on July 29, 2016, 04:09:57 PM

I'll not justify my Extra class license to you or anyone . I'll not support it with a GROL and code element nor parade my education in front of AF7XT or my "experiance" behind it .
I am appalled that an old school Extra would exhibit so little class in welcoming new amateurs to the hobby based on "I worked very hard to get my extra well over 20 years ago and it meant something when I got it " . Right now it means little or nothing if you don't teach what you learn , set an example , and...
§97.1   Basis and purpose.
(a) Recognition ...
I have no idea on your activities here so I can not and will not speak to it .
(b) Continuation ...
Hard to do if you insist on working in a vacuum .
(c) Encouragement ...
Failure in the extreme . Fortunately I need no encouragement from you or anyone . 
(d) Expansion ...
Hard to do if you consistently believe that all new amateurs are somewhat less compared to your experience . This is a welcome that I rarely experience locally or face to face .
(e) Continuation and extension of the amateur's unique ability to enhance international goodwill...
If you can not or refuse to enhance goodwill within amateur radio how can anyone expect you to do so internationally ?
§97.101 (a) Just , fail .

Last but not least , take another shot at AA4HA , Tisha Hayes , and see how many friends it gets you . One less I'm sure .

Yet another "no code CB/Extra".

AF7XT Dennis


Hi Dennis:

Well put.   It is fairly sad how many people on these forums "shoot their own team".  Our hobby has
been aging and finding trouble attracting new members young and old.  You would think all hams would
welcome ANY new hams with open arms and kind words for joining the hobby we all have in common.
Instead, the insults are epidemic.

This is my first year as a new no code general.   I am not the smartest here nor the dumbest.
I don't have 4 PHD's and I am not a high school drop-out either.
I joined for my love of radio, electronics, and hobby interest.

But I have been called some fairly colorful things over these first 6 months.
Just fascinating.
[Lucky, none of it is discouraging me in the hobby, since my day job as an engineer has taught
me to have a very thick skin :-) ]

Why do we technical people spend so much energy attacking each other?

Cheers,

Neal


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK4YDR on July 29, 2016, 10:57:12 PM
 

Quote

Why do we technical people spend so much energy attacking each other?

Cheers,

Neal


Do not be discouraged, it takes time, but I am finding genuinely enjoyable kind hearted men and women of all ages on certain regular HF frequencies. It just takes time. 6 months is not long enough. I went through the exact same phase you described. It gets better and you learn to mash the big red IGNORE button on your HF rig called the VFO when you encounter these lids.

I as well have a no code license --- OH WHOOPTIE DOO! I have heard real code while underway in the Navy and let me tell you real CW is real and mission critical and real tactical information is passed via CW in the NAVY, not the primary comms anymore, but still required for certain people to know when crap fails cw doesn't. I am not impressed with a person ability to say hi hi over CW in HAM town. I am impressed with it's military application. It is all good and fun that a station is able to do 20 wpm but guess what... its a hobby. The Federal govt. and congress no longer seen the necessity for HAMs to learn code. Thus I am not sweating. You think we have a participation problem now with the young crowd?? Then make them learn code to get certified and you will see silent air waves as all of the older stations go SK with none to replace them. We live in the digital age with cell phones, internet, mass data consumption etc... If code is to implemented make it a separate license on its own, or an addon, make it something to be proud of and make an award for it and make it a coveted reward. But youth is not interested in what is perceived as dilapidated or archaic. We know it really isn't but code should NOT be a firewall to keep good operators off the air. The bad CB'ish ones are a problem due to the failure of the enforcement arm of the hobby to do their damn jobs. The useless FCC. They do nothing to correct the baddies on the air and we all know this as fact.

Now not to derail the thread but I really dig the concept of having an amplifer that 5 in would make 1500 out. That would be awesome.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W1BR on July 30, 2016, 08:19:31 AM
 
Now not to derail the thread but I really dig the concept of having an amplifer that 5 in would make 1500 out. That would be awesome.

That is close to being possible with a tetrode that is being run as a tetrode, and not a cobbled up cathode driven amplifier using a triode in GG, or a tetrode with all grids tied to ground. But, the FCC rules frown on commercial amps doing so... but a ham is still free to homebrew as he sees fit.

Pete


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on July 30, 2016, 08:28:47 AM
You can already homebrew an amp with >15 dB gain. The current restriction applies only to commercial amps.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD6VXI on July 30, 2016, 09:46:43 AM
3 X 4cx250s would accomplish 5 in,  1.5 out...  IMD would probably be close to the same as the expert.  I'd bet the tetrode would be cleaner.

Pair of 4cx600s would be ultra clean.

4cx1k, 4cx1.5k, they all do it.

It's all in grid driven,  and you choose the input R and the transformer ratio.   A GOOD CLEAN tetrode will run ab1 or as close to it as possible.

--Shane
KD6VXI



Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: WA7AQH on July 30, 2016, 04:59:56 PM
In a conversation with Elecraft at SeaPac on this topic, they seem anxious to see the limit lifted. Indicated that with very small changes on the input configuration the KPA-500 could be driven "cleanly" (their emphasis, I might add) by 10 watts with 500 out.  Just imagine a 500 watt KX2. :-)


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KOP on July 30, 2016, 08:04:28 PM
The NXP BLF 188XR is a good example of a modern device that is capable of 23.5db gain "on paper".

 "~Unfortunately, the LDMOS device data sheets provide *no* IMD spec's
for linear operation.  The only data is for CW and pulse service.  If
one is to extrapolate from similar LDMOS devices (single FET vs. two
FETs on a common die), one would need to derate to 800-900 W PEP in
order to achieve reasonable IMD levels.  That conclusion is further
corroborated by the compression spec's (actual vs. ideal output power)
which show the onset of output compression above 59 to 60 dBm (59 dBm
=> ~800W)."~ W6KAN (Thank You Tom)

Even if you were to derate the devices by half and accept the combiner losses
it still is a viable alternative to tubes with handles and 5KV 3A supplies .

Then the pendulum swings the other way and an economical 50V 100A (?) supply needs to found or built.
This has me looking at my Miller Dialarc 350 in a different light .
The initial cost of the  BLF 188XR hovers around $200 depending on the source .
What appear to be very cleanly constructed boards are available from the former East Block Europe via Ebay for less than $200.
Where you find the copper and aluminum and copper is up to you .
I strongly recommend the protection and metering boards also available from the same Ebay seller .

I suspect that from my earlier adventures with the MRF 154 that good imd figures will come at the price of derating and necessary feedback
circuitry . I understand that the current NXP/Freescale devices are much more tolerant of my ignorance but still not stupid proof .

Its an option .

I won't go into what others already have or are better able to but more than one tube option exists that has reasonable imd numbers and is capable of being driven with less than 10 watts to full legal output.

My conclusion is its a good idea for the amateur builder . I doubt its a good idea for a commercial , for retail application . Without mentioning names there already exists a manufacture that can't make -25db 3rd in a commercial , for retail sale to the US amateur market using the the previously mentioned LDMOS devices. This is sweep tube territory . How about a pallet of 2SC2879's ?

Tubes whether ceramic , metal or glass are not immune either . In some cases its a curious implementation of an otherwise surplus tube . In other cases its the tube itself .

I'm sure by now the enlightened amateur realizes that any maintenance of baseband noise is up to the individual as much as the group . Allowing a manufacturer to be their own conscience is ...

This whole view is subjective in nature and only incidentally supported by fact . This relates to the whole of my experience and is anecdotal at best and pure heresy at worst . However it is my opinion . The 15db rule , for now is a good idea not because of the long dead but still perceived CB menace but because there exist far too many imd issues with available equipment . Show me 25db gain with -40db 3rd and I'll think about it .

 

AF7XT Dennis

 


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KD6VXI on July 30, 2016, 09:07:38 PM
As someone else pointed out.   Factory stock,  your radio is not linear with regard to IMD VS Pout.  Take a look at the 2SC2879, which was used in a lot of mid 80s to mid 90s and further rigs.   The IMD curve is a bowl!   And higher on the lower outputs.

The fix is easy,  at 10 watts pep,  pure class A.   A pair of 2879s would easily survive that.   And,  enjoy the blast furnace out the back.

--Shane
KD6VXI


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on July 31, 2016, 05:02:08 AM
Expert Linears apparently realised that the FCC rule making process can be a slow path so has now also filed for a temporary waiver for their 1.3K FA amp.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4KOE on August 07, 2016, 04:43:41 PM
Where in the rules does it state is it illegal to purchase an AM broadcast transmitter? So what if one converts it to the HF bands as long as the power limits prescribed by law are followed?

Guess I'm going to jail real soon....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpnKwQVJN5A


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4KOE on August 07, 2016, 04:51:00 PM
Quote
Not true. You can run a huge 5 KW amplifier/appliance on 240 volts, 1 phase. Do the math...

For comparison, a typical electric range is around 8 KW.

5000w / 240V = 20.8A

Using the NEC safety factor (assuming continuous duty), 20.8 x 1.25 = 26A, give or take.

You neglected to account for the ~40% efficiency of the amp. So the amperage would be closer to 60 amps.

But then the FCC isn't considering a power limit increase.

OK, lets check the numbers......

I thought most class AB1 amplifiers were around 65% efficient, give or take. But lets take this example you quoted of 40% (very poor amplifier)....

5 KW / 0.4 = 12.5 KW

12.5 KW @ 240V, 1 phase = 52 amperes, intermittent duty. So yes, a 60 ampere, 2 pole breaker would be appropriate. However, that little thing called diversity indicates that you can still run this amplifier at your house panel no problem. Just don't cook a roast in the range at the same time to be safe. If your house electrical system was designed properly, then you should have plenty of wiggle room in your home panel...assuming of course you decide to be an outlaw and run a horribly inefficient (40%) 5 KW amplifier.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: W9IQ on August 07, 2016, 05:51:39 PM
Phil,

My point was simply to correct your erroneous math, not to question the efficacy of running it with 100 amp service.

No question that my 40% was conservative but that is a good engineering practice. Stated amp efficiencies do not typically include the power supply or RF filter efficiencies. They often neglect filament power and startup surge current as well.

But back to the thread topic, the FCC is not proposing a power output increase. They are simply considering the concept of removing the ineffective 15 dB gain limit.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KK5DR on August 07, 2016, 08:01:39 PM
It's a stupid rule, ineffective. It was designed to prevent ham amps from being used on CB. It never did. CBers used ham radios to drive the ham amps, no problem.
It's just like the restriction on 10/12 meters in HF amps. That didn't work either.
Just dumb stuff. The FCC is known for its other dumb ideas too.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: KA4KOE on August 08, 2016, 06:06:18 AM
The efficiency figures listed are opinions without hard data. The sample calculation, taken as it was presented, was correct. Unless you put an amp clamp on the power cord the figures are purely opinions. Good engineering practice also dictates that you don't excessively oversize as that leads to other issues. Any large well designed amplifier should have step-start anyway. Up-sizing a house service in this example is unnecessary.


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ZS5WC on August 11, 2016, 10:22:24 PM
 :)Hi John,(KA4WJA)
Thanks for your reply and publishing the IMD figures of the 3 EXPERT amps.
It would seem the 1.3Kfa has VERY much worse (3rd order imd) at rated output.

I think using a single package (dual device) FET was optimistic, maybe the rated O/P should be around 1Kw.
I have spoken to several owners of the 1.3K-fa however, and they seem oblivious to any splatter issues.
I know these amps were recently used in DXpeditions, and no cross-band splatter was observed.

I recently had a report of splatter on my 1K-FA. Found the BIAS incorrectly set from factory , reset to 250mA per device, and splatter was gone. She is now super clean.

So maybe the Expert dealer in the USA could be contacted re the issue, I'm not sure if QST did a test on the 1.3K-fa?.
Maybe someone with the required test gear could confirm the 3rd order IMD?.

73 de William
ZS4L / ZS5WC


Title: RE: FCC Invites Comments on Petition to Eliminate 15 dB Gain
Post by: ZENKI on August 19, 2016, 04:54:35 PM
Elecraft should work harder at improving the IMD of their radios. While radios like the K3 do have a well behaved ALC, the IMD performance of the K3 is not that great, its poor.

Elecraft is however right. It would be nice to be buy a ultra clean 1 watt K3 and drive a 500 watt or 2kw amplifier with  the 1 watt driver radio. The military and most commercial HF  transmitters work this way. They have no ALC and  have a transmitter gain control. These military radios have exceptional IMD performance like 50db down at 5khz.

In a conversation with Elecraft at SeaPac on this topic, they seem anxious to see the limit lifted. Indicated that with very small changes on the input configuration the KPA-500 could be driven "cleanly" (their emphasis, I might add) by 10 watts with 500 out.  Just imagine a 500 watt KX2. :-)