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eHam Forums => Software Defined Radio => Topic started by: N6YFM on May 24, 2017, 10:39:51 PM



Title: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on May 24, 2017, 10:39:51 PM
Yes, I know well that it is pointless to argue the "details" of two radios that are not even released yet.
But since I am likely to upgrade to one of the two radio models, I would like to discuss, and get your
input, on the part of the equation we do actually know something about.  Since both vendors have some
experience now with SDR technology, and since both radios will have RMDR exceeding 110db, I have no
doubt that both would do just fine for almost any ham out there.   The choice for me will get down to a few
questions about the vendors and details.   Of the below, what is true and what else to be concerned about?:

1.  Icom radios like the 7300 and 7610 work just fine without a computer, and will likely do so for decades.
Some people say that the Flex units depend upon Windows 7 or 10 software for use, so if those go away,
and Flex goes away, you would have trouble.  Is this really true?  Doesn't Flex have a published control API
so other people could write control software in the future?  The 6400M with built in control panel has embedded
software, so could work without a computer at all, right?

2.  While I don't argue that Icom 7610 has a more "Traditional" look to the knobs, switches, fit and finish,
does it matter all that much?  The controls and buttons on the Flex do look to be high quality, and as someone
who owns an Icom 7300, I know just how much functionality can be sitting on the touch screen.  So is that
really a big deal, or is it just different?  Does this simply get down to "taste" and who likes a certain look better?

3.  While I agree that current pictures of the Flex 6400M unit back panel look like an unpainted, unfinished
prototype for a G.E. Toaster Oven, I am not sure I would judge a radio this way.  After choking on the ugliness
of the back panel for 10 minutes while hooking up the radio, you never see the back of it again until you go to
disconnect it.   I expect, just like with early photos of the Flex Genius Amplifier, that this back panel will change before
shipment.  But even if it did not, is this really a big deal?  I care more about how the radio works, how the front VFO
feels and how responsive the touch screen is.

4.  Trade Off:  I suspect the Icom will have all it's features on ship date, and we will get only small incremental
bug fixes and tiny feature updates maybe once or twice a year for one or two years?    I suspect that Flex will be
fully usable on day one, but missing certain things we want, but will do firmware updates approx 4 times a year and
also add features, and then keep on adding them for quite some more time in the future?     Is this about right?

5.  Both rigs have equivalent video output.  HDMI and DVI are electrically compatible, and there are no active
components in a DVI to HDMI adapter cable, just the connectors and wire.  Am I missing anything here?

6.  For the digital mode user;  I find that my Icom 7300 has a receive audio pass-band that is relatively flat for
up to 3600hz.  I find that there is NOTHING I can do to make transmit flat even to 3000hz.  I hear that Flex users
have even more options here on how wide/flat RX and TX are?

7.  Please don't talk to me about AM :-)   Take a look at your panadapter on 20m or 40m and show me where there
is room on these crowded bands for wide, obsolete modes?  Oh, um, there is probably a lot of room for them on 10 and
11 meters, sorry.   Even more room on 6m.  That said, my Icom 7300 did just fine on the recent A.M. Rally, I actually heard
and made almost a dozen contacts, using A.M.   That's it.  One dozen, out of ~750,000 USA hams.    Since SSB fits in less
than half the bandwidth, is still understandable, and has a 9dB advantage, it's almost like virtually having "Kilowatts for Free".
Please don't worry me about A.M.  :-)  A.M. is not energy efficient, it is not bandwidth use efficient, and it will NEVER
be Energy Star rated :-)    But if you really need a ballast load for that 150 KW Santa Fe Diesel Generator in your back yard,
go ahead and key up your A.M. Amplifier for a rag chew.

Back on topic and putting A.M. humor aside;
What are your decision criteria for which of these two radios to select and buy?

Cheers,

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on May 25, 2017, 12:41:33 AM
Of the below, what is true and what else to be concerned about?:

1.  Icom radios like the 7300 and 7610 work just fine without a computer, and will likely do so for decades.
Some people say that the Flex units depend upon Windows 7 or 10 software for use, so if those go away,
and Flex goes away, you would have trouble.  Is this really true?  Doesn't Flex have a published control API
so other people could write control software in the future?  The 6400M with built in control panel has embedded
software, so could work without a computer at all, right?


Cheers,

Neal

Whilst I agree that a computer/Windows 7/10 reliant radio would be a concern for me also (unless at cheap throw away price), I would not be too confident about those big fancy screens on the Icoms lasting for "decades".........and these screens even being unobtanium long before that.
As for plug-in the back external screens - will any be compatible after decades, what will the format be then - EHMDI, PQMDI, XYMDI, ABMDO, EFFIN-F/UP? (1954 Collins 75A-3 still working fine here).

So you takes your pick.

Also I foresee a similarity in the way it's heading with cars - used to be cars were junked because eventually the rust got to them, now you see perfectly good fresh looking cars in breaker yards simply because some fancy electronic component has made them not viable to repair.

Some downsides to all the bling. (OMP of course)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on May 25, 2017, 12:59:38 AM

3.  While I agree that current pictures of the Flex 6400M unit back panel look like an unpainted, unfinished
prototype for a G.E. Toaster Oven, I am not sure I would judge a radio this way.  After choking on the ugliness
of the back panel for 10 minutes while hooking up the radio, you never see the back of it again until you go to
disconnect it.   I expect, just like with early photos of the Flex Genius Amplifier, that this back panel will change before
shipment.  But even if it did not, is this really a big deal?  I care more about how the radio works, how the front VFO
feels and how responsive the touch screen is.


Cheers,

Neal

What's the fuss about the Flex rear panel when.......

7610 rear panel looks no better than Flex and no better than mass consumer grade VCR rear panel from honky tonk land.

Cheap thin gauge "monkey metal" - many of the connectors not mechanically supported by rear panel but simply mounted on PCB and poking through a hole in the back - wouldn't call that superior.

Again, take your pick.

OMP.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KD8TUT on May 25, 2017, 03:43:37 AM

1.  Icom radios like the 7300 and 7610 work just fine without a computer, and will likely do so for decades.
Some people say that the Flex units depend upon Windows 7 or 10 software for use, so if those go away,
and Flex goes away, you would have trouble.  Is this really true?  Doesn't Flex have a published control API
so other people could write control software in the future?  The 6400M with built in control panel has embedded
software, so could work without a computer at all, right?

Cheers,

Neal

TLDR: I'd go Icom.

An API is not the same as access to the source code. As I understand the Flex API it is dependent on Microsoft .NET and the "FlexLIB".

FlexLIB creates an abstraction layer between Flex hardware and any software a third party might write. Which means you cannot control the radio without Windows and a functional FlexLIB DLL.

Bottom line: if Flex signs the death certificate on SmartSDR/FlexLIB, goes of of business, or for some reason stops supporting the technology the radio is more likely to become a doorstop.

This is a problem inherent to closed source software on computer hardware. It also illustrates the superiority of open source in ham radio. As a primary example I'd cite the Flex 5000/3000 series of radios: they are being supported by hams, generating new features, and still remaining relevant because the software is open source.

That being said- if you gave me the choice of an Icom Vs a current Flex- well I'd go Icom.

By purchasing an Icom I'd be assuring myself of the following:

1. It will probably work for decades.

2. If Icom went out of business it would be more likely the radio would retain value.

3. No threat of obsolete software making the radio a doorstop.

4. No "pay to play" software updates.

And I say that as a person who would not consider an Icom given the wide number of choices in the SDR world.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on May 25, 2017, 05:19:07 AM
The same could be said in comparison between ssb and CW.

Both radios will work fine as long as you are likely to want to use them.
I even hear the original Flex 1000's on the air.
And a lot of Icom's are in the landfill due to display problems...

Why not just get the radio you like best?
 

Quote:

7.  Please don't talk to me about AM :-)   Take a look at your panadapter on 20m or 40m and show me where there
is room on these crowded bands for wide, obsolete modes?  Oh, um, there is probably a lot of room for them on 10 and
11 meters, sorry.   Even more room on 6m.  That said, my Icom 7300 did just fine on the recent A.M. Rally, I actually heard
and made almost a dozen contacts, using A.M.   That's it.  One dozen, out of ~750,000 USA hams.    Since SSB fits in less
than half the bandwidth, is still understandable, and has a 9dB advantage, it's almost like virtually having "Kilowatts for Free".
Please don't worry me about A.M.  :-)  A.M. is not energy efficient, it is not bandwidth use efficient, and it will NEVER
be Energy Star rated :-)    But if you really need a ballast load for that 150 KW Santa Fe Diesel Generator in your back yard,
go ahead and key up your A.M. Amplifier for a rag chew.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on May 25, 2017, 06:58:14 AM

Both radios will work fine as long as you are likely to want to use them.
I even hear the original Flex 1000's on the air.
And a lot of Icom's are in the landfill due to display problems...

Why not just get the radio you like best?

+1


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W1BG on May 25, 2017, 07:53:48 AM
Don't talk to you about AM?  Why not?  While I do not operate that mode I most certainly do listen to a lot of AM broadcast stations, both locally and around the world, propagation notwithstanding.  As such, one of the principle features I look for in an AM receiver (for SWL'ing) is the ability to do synchronous AM detection, which the 6400M can do and the Icom cannot do.

Certainly there's a litany of other feature comparisons to be made, but I don't see very much coming from Icom that isn't matched (or in some cases bettered) by Flex. By contrast, looking from the opposite view, Flex has several features that Icom either purposely omitted or maybe just forgot about.  One specific feature that would be of interest to me is the ability to immediately "playback" an off-the-air recording to help someone struggling with TX audio issues.  Flex can do this, Icom can't... and Flex has had this ability across it's line for several years.  The Flex also offers a 10-band parametric Tx EQ vs Icom's 2-band Bass & Treble adjustments.  Yeah, there's also that pesky ESSB wideband TX capability in the Flex which I'd just as soon they'd left out, but it's yet something else the Icom can't do.

Some in the Icom crowd  are understandably a little peeved because Flex kept their bombshell "competitor" hidden away. Then like the famous words from Gomer Pyle, "Surprise-Surprise-Surprise" they sprung it at Dayton, fully intent on stealing some of the 7610's thunder, which they in fact did.  "Sha-Zam!"

Flex has also announced firm pricing, something Icom still hasn't been willing to do even though they announced the 7610 at last August's Tokyo Ham Show.  Why all the mystery and intrigue about pricing?  Is Icom trying to measure interest & the depth of our pockets before setting a price?  If so, they probably lost a number of potential sales last weekend. They certainly lost me.

As a current 7300 owner I admit I was "looking" at the 7610 but didn't feel I'd make sufficient use of the added features to justify tripling my transceiver investment.  Similarly, I've also been looking at Flex for a while, but vehemently did not want to marry my ham rig with my PC.  The new 6400M seems to have solved both issues for me, as there are finally now enough feature differences to attract me.  And let's face it, that 8" screen is freakin' gorgeous!

73 - Bill
W1BG


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K8EZB on May 25, 2017, 11:08:43 AM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least. These radios will be in demand for several years; should be no problem selling after, say, a year at near purchase price, especially if demand exceeds supply.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on May 25, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I'm going to take a stab at this.  When I see people making purchase decisions based on the nature of the rear panel, it tells me there may be a lack of understanding of what's in the box.

I'm not an expert on Icom's architecture, I am an expert on Flex's architecture.  I have studied the Icom architecture from the available web information, and though both Flex and Icom are SDR's how they do SDR are fairly dissimilar.  My initiation with the Flex 6000 series was when they called me up to test the 6300 before its Dayton release.  I had a long affiliation with Fex from the 3 board SDR-1000 days and had some input into the design of the 5000. I had one of the 5 6300 prototypes.  I also had on of the first 6 of the 5000 series.  I sent the 5000 back and bought a production model 5000, and just bought the 6300 they sent me outright, the  point being these are my radios and I'm not paid by Flex in anyway.  I have a 6500 and a 6700 both purchased used off swap.QTH.  I'm going to try and present this with as little bias as I can because I don't really have a dog in your purchase hunt.  My starting point is this is America and you can choose what you like.  

The architecture of the Flex is primarily FPGA based.  An FPGA is basically a bunch of gates that can be programmed in the field to be a custom IC.  It requires a special kind of programming language and skills to program.  It is a kind of computer, but it is not like your Dell or HP or iPAD.  Every time the FPGA boots it has to be programmed from scratch.  It has no memory of its configuration.  This is something to remember.  The Flex takes a relatively long time to boot.  This is because there is a TON of things to configure, as the radio is primarily FPGA based.  I understand the Icom boots quickly.  This would indicate not much happening in the FPGA.  This would mean the complexity of the Icom must reside somewhere else in the signal chain as compared to the Flex.  My understanding of the Icom architecture is it's primarily DSP based in it's complexity, using the custom Icom DSP chip.  This is not to knock this approach but to point out a big point of contrast between architectures.  I don't know how plastic the ICOM DSP is to reprogramming but as has been indicated  it's likely the performance enhancements to the radio will be around the edges as opposed to major rewrites of the feature set.  I've been in the Alpha program at Flex under NDA and have been involved in multiple major rewrites of that architecture over the past 3 years as new things are added.  So adding that to the understand of how SDR's  work is important.  One approach (Icom's) is likely more fixed while Flex's is more plastic.  I think neither architecture is open to manipulation by anybody but an insider.  Icom is not going to let you re-code their DSP even if you had that skill set, likewise Flex is not going to let you re-code their radio even if you had the first clue about the programming tools used.  

Both radios allow for some access to control by external clients.  From what I can see Icom uses a CAT based kind of control programming and likely a good deal of control complexity can be exposed using that system.  Flex on the other hand uses a sever/client model with their API.  This means your control is not limited to computers.  Neither is control limited to windows.  The API is platform independent.  I can connect to my Flex radios from a windows box, a apple box, or from an arduino as a front end to control the radio.  There has been some development on an android client as well but I think that programmer lost interest.  None the less he did build a rudimentary  client which could run the radio with pandapters from a Nexus 7 tablet over wifi.  I have an Italian friend who designed a complete front end including panadapters for his 6300 using an Arduino DUE.  I have 2 clients that allow me complete control of my radios (I have multiple that I can access) from my iPAD over wifi.  (an iPHONE will also work but I don't know how well)  My iPAD has a LTE modem so I can even access my radio from my car while headed down highway using the cell network.  Another radio client of course is Flex's Maestro.  I don't own a Maestro but I do know a lot of development went into that client to get the feature set just right as far as buttons count vs ergonomics.   The other "clients" that can access the radio are not even control surfaces.  The new PowerGenius amp is a client that is fully integrated into the radio via a Ethernet connection.  As well other clients include rotor, steppir and antenna switching as well as transverter and preamp switching.  Note these relationships are interactive both radio and client talk and are smart.  Flex has also implemented a USB based peripheral controller based on FTDI technology ($25 cable) that plugs into the USB port on the radio ad allows control of peripherals like amps and switches.

 
Another class of clients are programs.  I have always 4 programs open (DXLab Suite, SDR-Bridge/CWSkimmer, a custom Memory program called FRStack, a very powerful Macro and station management program called DDUTIL all connected by IP address.  When I use my radio remotely I can access these features in the remote location as well.  Also N1MM+ and WriteLog as well as digital clients all connect in a server/client fashion.  You may say "I don't need any of that" except when you want to go to the tower base, you can bring your iPAD and have full access to antenna switching and being able to turn a carrier off and on on any band, and you might decide: "very useful".  I'm sure the Icom has some of this feature set available as well.

I look at the Flex and the Icom as having different kinds of receivers.  One the standard, that outputs processed audio, and another that outputs video.  They give 2 very different but superimposed information.  I'm note sure of the video bandwidth of the Icom, I think it's a mhz.  The 6300 and 6400 has 7 mhz and the others are 14 mhz.  The video band width can be set using macros.  Whe I hook up my magnetic loop, I can watch a 14mhz swath of band and see the power peak on the pan adapter using the iPAD as  tune the cap, and then switch on the TX and fine tune the match.  The waterfall in the Flex has a pixel bandwidth of 1.5hz this means you can see signals which are under the noise compared to what you hear.  I have made DX contacts using this feature.  I position myself exactly on the DX's RX freq and then watch as he pokes out of the noise on his transmit freq.  Not sure of the Icom's video specs.  

The Flex uses an embedded system which is read only so it is not particularly sensitive to things like Microsoft.Net nor is it sensitive to hacking since it is read only.  It is not in anyway sensitive to win 7 or win 10 for its operation.  The Flex lib continues to upgrade as the system upgrades as you would expect as features are added.  As far as throwing it in the dump I still own a SDR-1000 and a F5K and they still work.  The F5K continues to be updated and features added by KE9NS nearly a decade after its introduction.  

I'm pretty happy with the upgrade program.  I have a 6300 and a 6500 which I intend to turn into a 6600M.  I will keep the 6700 since it has added functionality over the 6600M.  I will likely run the 6600 from a computer as opposed to the front panel since that suits my operation best, but the panel will always be available if I choose. Not sure what the Icom has to compete.  

So both radios have a lot to offer.  I think the Icom is more like a SDR masquerading as a legacy radio and its architecture is probably more limiting in flexibility but certainly powerful.  For me the Flex works FB.  I run the latest Alpha code and seldom have any problems.  I beat the hell out of the code as an Alpha tester to try and wring all of the bugs out before general release and for the most part the software even in alpha format is well behaved.  Occasionally a bug slips through but the there is a new release soon to follow with a solution.  Flex has always been very good about any issue even to TeamSpeaking into my computer to study an issue, and come to an understanding.  The iterative nature helps Flex's quality control for the rest of it's customers.  I'm running V2 so it's not far on the horizon.  The WAN works great

73  W9OY


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on May 25, 2017, 12:19:55 PM
Here is an example of Mack W4AX's integrated Flex station

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/12-FOsTHAYIbRRRuI5AD4QnC7k8IbS37TG5IR4yHrFnE/edit?ts=59244e8d#slide=id.p3


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: NO9E on May 25, 2017, 12:49:10 PM
Perhaps the following are true:

1. It is hard to tell which radio will make you smile more,
2. For those who know now,  number one probably applies as well.
3. Nearly always, a change makes someone unhappy first, and happy later.
4. Many changes make one eventually happy, whatever the direction.
Ignacy, NO9E


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on May 25, 2017, 01:27:41 PM
I'm going to try and present this with as little bias as I can because I don't really have a dog in your purchase hunt.  
73  W9OY

LMAO, the day you are un-biased is the day I will buy another Flexradio.......    ;) :D :D :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on May 25, 2017, 03:29:33 PM
I think Stan is biased. And other things....

I have had 5 Flex radios, I liked them all except the 1500.
I have had a bunch of Icoms, and while they were not great performers they were easy to operate, reliable and attractive.
None of my radios ever had a fault or failure.

If I had the money I would have a 6700 for the diversity. Is anyone else besides Anan doing diversity?
If I had LOTS of money I would have the 7610 as well.


I'm going to try and present this with as little bias as I can because I don't really have a dog in your purchase hunt.  
73  W9OY

LMAO, the day you are un-biased is the day I will buy another Flexradio.......    ;) :D :D :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on May 25, 2017, 04:10:17 PM
I think Stan is biased.

Anyone who has been on SDR eham forum any amount of time knows that K9IUQ and W9OY are biased. However, unlike W9OY, K9IUQ does not try to lie about his biases......

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on May 25, 2017, 07:14:54 PM
....... Flex has several features that Icom either purposely omitted or maybe just forgot about.  One specific feature that would be of interest to me is the ability to immediately "playback" an off-the-air recording to help someone struggling with TX audio issues.  Flex can do this, Icom can't...


How about the SD Memory Card slot on the IC-7610 front panel below the Sub AF/RF knobs on the lower left corner?  It should be good for playback into the Tx path if it's stored on a PC?  Looks the same as the new IC-R8600 receiver, and the brochure for that receiver says:

"SD Card Slot for Receiver Recorder
The recorder function can record received audio onto an SD card in
WAVE format. The recorded voice audio can be played back on the
receiver or a PC. When a 32 GB SD card is used, up to 270 hours of
recording is possible. In addition, the screen capture function saves a
snap shot of the screen in PNG or BMP format on the SD card."

Maybe it can't be used to playback in the Tx path, I'm just mentioning it.

Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6BRN on May 25, 2017, 07:48:01 PM
Lee:

A little knowledge can lead to the wrong conclusions...  but you made a very credible try at an explanation.

W90Y said...
Quote
The architecture of the Flex is primarily FPGA based.  An FPGA is basically a bunch of gates that can be programmed in the field to be a custom IC.  It requires a special kind of programming language and skills to program.  It is a kind of computer, but it is not like your Dell or HP or iPAD.  Every time the FPGA boots it has to be programmed from scratch.  It has no memory of its configuration.  This is something to remember.  The Flex takes a relatively long time to boot.  This is because there is a TON of things to configure, as the radio is primarily FPGA based.  I understand the Icom boots quickly.  This would indicate not much happening in the FPGA.  This would mean the complexity of the Icom must reside somewhere else in the signal chain as compared to the Flex.

Load time of a RAM-based FPGA is influenced mostly by the configuration method, of which their are many, while utilization of internal FPGA logic and memory is by far a second order cause.  If Flex is loading the FPGA via the system CPU (a processor outside of the FPGA) and its memory, load speed will be slowed down by more than an order of magnitude due to the processor/bus/IO bottleneck.  If Flex is further performing a daisy-chain load of more than one FPGA, things slow down even more.  The payback from this is more flexibility in FPGA configuration updates due to the system CPU's ability to easily accept, parse and load new configuration updates from the very handy and user accessible USB port.  Switching to a dedicated configuration flash memory device is simple, cheap and allows fast configuration loads.  I suspect that the ICOM IC-7300 takes this route.  But updates to the dedicated memory can be much clumsier to perform, or may simply be inaccessible to the user, making the "software radio"... not so soft.  And there are even quicker methods that require a bit more hardware and JTAG port access - which I doubt any amateur radio provider is doing - there is no real "need for speed" to boot up in this market.

Generally, the digital signal processing architecture of most FPGAs is a "data-flow" architecture, where information flows in one end (often from an ADC), is operated on in many successive stages in an assembly-line fashion, with many, many numerical operations happening at one time, then out the other end (often to a DAC).  Except when using an embedded CPU, no logical branching is involved, though adaptive decisions and adjustments can be made in structures like the AGC.  The "programming language" of an FPGA is called a Hardware Description Language (HDL), of which Verilog and VHDL are two of the most popular.  They are used to describe the logical contents of FPGA primary functions and this logical description is translated into a resource interconnect map (often called a netlist) by a synthesis tool, such as those supplied by Synopsys, perhaps the biggest player in this field.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6BRN on May 25, 2017, 07:54:43 PM
By the way... there are very few actual logic gates in a RAM based FPGA.  Most logic functions, from simple to complex, are performed by "LUTs" - memory based lookup tables, while others are performed by dedicated macro structures, such as (in Xilinx FPGAs) "DSPs".  Then there are memory structures, both block and distributed, some with built in EDAC, and I/O structures used to talk to the outside world.  But not many real "gates"

B.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6BRN on May 25, 2017, 08:02:05 PM
Footnote #2... a RAM based FPGA, like those used by Flex and ICOM, are mostly (2/3 or more) memory - memory that is volatile and loses its contents when the power goes away. Which is why a configuration reload from a non-volatile memory is required at start-up.  And FPGA configuration memory can become corrupted during operation, in something called a "single event upset", or SEU.  In most commercial/consumer gear, this requires power cycling to correct.  So if your Flex or ICOM SDR starts misbehaving - try the old fix of turning it off, waiting a bit and turning it back on.

B.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on May 25, 2017, 11:27:41 PM
Thanks Brian.  I live under NDA and I struggle with how detailed to get when describing things for fear of saying too much, while still trying to advance understanding in some way.  My goal is the reader comes out with a little finer appreciation of how the radio/s work, and maybe have a little clearer understanding on how to make a purchase decision, on longevity and obsolescence.  Your explanation was excellent especially regarding the functional signal path.  Knowledge is very much the key.

73  W9OY




Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on May 26, 2017, 12:22:56 AM



And a lot of Icom's are in the landfill due to display problems...



+1

+2


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on May 26, 2017, 12:33:07 AM



"SD Card Slot for Receiver Recorder

Ed VE3WGO

.........DVD slot for the TV screen, CD slot for the inbuilt equaliser & your favourite music............

The new 7610 multimedia player, available soon at Walmart.    :-\


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W1BG on May 26, 2017, 04:59:02 PM
....... Flex has several features that Icom either purposely omitted or maybe just forgot about.  One specific feature that would be of interest to me is the ability to immediately "playback" an off-the-air recording to help someone struggling with TX audio issues.  Flex can do this, Icom can't...


How about the SD Memory Card slot on the IC-7610 front panel below the Sub AF/RF knobs on the lower left corner?  It should be good for playback into the Tx path if it's stored on a PC?  Looks the same as the new IC-R8600 receiver, and the brochure for that receiver says:

"SD Card Slot for Receiver Recorder
The recorder function can record received audio onto an SD card in
WAVE format. The recorded voice audio can be played back on the
receiver or a PC. When a 32 GB SD card is used, up to 270 hours of
recording is possible. In addition, the screen capture function saves a
snap shot of the screen in PNG or BMP format on the SD card."

Maybe it can't be used to playback in the Tx path, I'm just mentioning it.

Ed VE3WGO

Of course this can be done, but certainly not in anything approaching real time.  The files have to be moved to another directory and renamed before they can be played back over the air. Kind of kludgy, don't you think?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on May 31, 2017, 10:37:28 AM

An API is not the same as access to the source code. As I understand the Flex API it is dependent on Microsoft .NET and the "FlexLIB".

FlexLIB creates an abstraction layer between Flex hardware and any software a third party might write. Which means you cannot control the radio without Windows and a functional FlexLIB DLL.

Bottom line: if Flex signs the death certificate on SmartSDR/FlexLIB, goes of of business, or for some reason stops supporting the technology the radio is more likely to become a doorstop.

This is a problem inherent to closed source software on computer hardware. It also illustrates the superiority of open source in ham radio. As a primary example I'd cite the Flex 5000/3000 series of radios: they are being supported by hams, generating new features, and still remaining relevant because the software is open source.


It is a common misconception that the only way to access a Flex is with .NET. The API is platform agnostic. The discovery protocol is based on VITA-49 using plain text UDP packets and the actual functions of the radio are accessed via ethernet commands which are unencrypted in plain text and quite frankly, in plain English. If you have some time with wireshark (or tcpdump) you can write a client for the radio. I've written code in python and C++ to access functions of the radio without having to even touch the C# .NET API. K6TU began mapping out an Objective-C library for the radio and even wrote an entire app for iOS. Third party clients - dogparkSDR and SmartSDR for iOS don't really use the C# .NET API as far as I know.

There are two pieces of software - the firmware inside of the radio and the client software. When Flex stops supporting the earlier 6000 series radios (whenever that is) it will suffer the same fate as older icom, elecraft, yaesu, kenwood and other radios - the radio will not get firmware updates but will be able to run whatever was the last client software supported. If you have a Maestro it will run until the Maestro breaks. If you have an M version, ditto.

In fact, you can still write a client for the radio if Flex stops releases software updates. It's not DRMed, except possibly where firmware updates come into play.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W8JX on May 31, 2017, 11:51:02 AM
Of course this can be done, but certainly not in anything approaching real time.  The files have to be moved to another directory and renamed before they can be played back over the air. Kind of kludgy, don't you think?

Not really because it dies not need a PC to not crash to record it and it is not a volatile storage either. I personally do not like a rig that needs a PC for some functions and would rather have a rig that is self supporting and can function without a PC.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: WD4ED on June 01, 2017, 12:01:47 PM
Unless I missed it, I don't see any discussion on prices.  Does it not matter to the hams buying these rigs? 

I don't own a late model ICOM, I don't own a Flex rig of any kind.  I have looked them over and consider myself a future "upgrade" buyer over my FTdx3000.  I have a bunch of various SDRs.  I like them.  I like my FTdx3000.  But that may not last forever. 

BUT... when it comes to a Flex radio I like them, I like the performance they appear to have and what owners claim.  My only issue that makes me favor a knob radio is simply this:

Flex products are expensive.  In my mind, too expensive to have to a buy a decent level of PC  or another $1000+ device to an already expensive device in order to run it.  Will there be any added value adding controls to the radio?  Or are they simply going to add up the costs and pass that on to the customer?  Because of this, I think that Knobbed radios of whatever type will have an advantage in flexibility and cost. 

Maybe the end, pricing of these two rigs will end up making it a wash.  We'll see eventually.

Thanks,

Ed
WD4ED


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 01, 2017, 12:07:47 PM
Unless I missed it, I don't see any discussion on prices.  Does it not matter to the hams buying these rigs? 

Flex has released pricing on the new models. You can get it on their website. $2000 gets you the 6400, and $3000 gets you the 6600. Add $1000 respectively for the M models with built in control console.

The 7610 in the UK has a MSRP of £2999. US pricing hasn't been released yet, as it is pending FCC approval. In the USA I expect the price to be around $3500 or so. Icom may of course cut into their profit and lower the price even further since Flex dropped the 6400/6600 bombshell on them.



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: WD4ED on June 01, 2017, 12:17:15 PM
Unless I missed it, I don't see any discussion on prices.  Does it not matter to the hams buying these rigs? 

Flex has released pricing on the new models. You can get it on their website. $2000 gets you the 6400, and $3000 gets you the 6600. Add $1000 respectively for the M models with built in control console.

The 7610 in the UK has a MSRP of £2999. US pricing hasn't been released yet, as it is pending FCC approval. In the USA I expect the price to be around $3500 or so. Icom may of course cut into their profit and lower the price even further since Flex dropped the 6400/6600 bombshell on them.



If that's the case, then I am surprised at the price for the Flex!  I'll research this a bit more on my own.  But, what is the consenus opinion on the performance level and capabilities of the 6400 compared to the other radios in the line?  I know it might be obvious that 6400 is between the other models in the model range.  But that may not always be the case.  Can you get a new 6300 for $2000?  That's why I ask.

Thanks,

Ed
WD4ED


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KS4JU on June 01, 2017, 01:10:31 PM
Unless I missed it, I don't see any discussion on prices.  Does it not matter to the hams buying these rigs? 

Flex has released pricing on the new models. You can get it on their website. $2000 gets you the 6400, and $3000 gets you the 6600. Add $1000 respectively for the M models with built in control console.

The 7610 in the UK has a MSRP of £2999. US pricing hasn't been released yet, as it is pending FCC approval. In the USA I expect the price to be around $3500 or so. Icom may of course cut into their profit and lower the price even further since Flex dropped the 6400/6600 bombshell on them.



If that's the case, then I am surprised at the price for the Flex!  I'll research this a bit more on my own.  But, what is the consenus opinion on the performance level and capabilities of the 6400 compared to the other radios in the line?  I know it might be obvious that 6400 is between the other models in the model range.  But that may not always be the case.  Can you get a new 6300 for $2000?  That's why I ask.

Thanks,

Ed
WD4ED

You probably won't be able to buy a new 6300 since they have been discontinued. However, I bet you can get a great deal on a lightly used 6300 right now. Wait until the 6400 ships and you can probably find even better deals on used 6300s. More than likely there won't be massive differences between the 6300 and 6400 with the exception of the 6400M all in one.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 01, 2017, 01:21:42 PM
If that's the case, then I am surprised at the price for the Flex!  I'll research this a bit more on my own.  But, what is the consenus opinion on the performance level and capabilities of the 6400 compared to the other radios in the line?  I know it might be obvious that 6400 is between the other models in the model range.  But that may not always be the case.  Can you get a new 6300 for $2000?  That's why I ask.

Thanks,

Ed
WD4ED

First of all, receiver numbers above 80dB for RMDR or dynamic range wide spaced really matter little for someone with normal hearing or brain capacity. 

With that said, the Flex 6400 will be top of the line performance wise, with 116dB RMDR per the spec sheet. The Icom 7610 is 106dB. Bear in mind the first paragraph that I wrote, however.

There are many other reasons to want a Flex:

Ease of use for remoting, in either Windows, iOS or MacOS. Version 2.0 will bring the SmartLink feature for seamless remoting and additional security with 2 factor authentication (if desired).

DAX with no additional software needed for digimode applications to connect.

Unlimited CAT cables, BCD cables or on/off lines for each band or frequency segment.

Ability to stream 192kHz I/Q, an entire CW section of a band for CW skimmer.

You don't get any of these with the icom. They want you to buy their RS-BA1 software which pales in comparison. They use a USB sound card and 36kHz IF which means no CW skimmer. CAT ports are limited. The icom is a pretty radio though, it's not big and boxy like the flexes. It's also an Icom which means that you have their service and dealer network. However Flex support is decent to deal with.

The Anan radios offer a bit more features than the icom so that's another option to look into.

You can't get a new 6300 now. They've stopped producing them. You can get a new 6400 for $2000 which ships probably in August.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K7JQ on June 01, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Unless I missed it, I don't see any discussion on prices.  Does it not matter to the hams buying these rigs? 

Flex has released pricing on the new models. You can get it on their website. $2000 gets you the 6400, and $3000 gets you the 6600. Add $1000 respectively for the M models with built in control console.

The 7610 in the UK has a MSRP of £2999. US pricing hasn't been released yet, as it is pending FCC approval. In the USA I expect the price to be around $3500 or so. Icom may of course cut into their profit and lower the price even further since Flex dropped the 6400/6600 bombshell on them.



Correction:

6400....$2,000
6400M..$3,000
Optional ATU...$260

6600....$4,000
6600M..$5,000
ATU built-in and included in the prices.

I couldn't find these prices on the website, but had to Google it. Took me to their website to a reservation page that coudn't be originally searched on the site. Strange. I seem to remember these prices posted prominently on the website during Dayton, but not there now...just reservation prices.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on June 01, 2017, 07:10:15 PM
flex radio prices are under the "Buy" tab on their homepage:    cart.flexradio.com  

Notice that the 6500 regular price is $4299 now on sale for $3999, ie $300 off.  That includes a built-in antenna tuner....  so the 6600 will be at the same price as the 6500 sale price while it lasts.

If you compare a 6400M plus ATU with the IC-7610, it's not a completely unfair comparison.  
6400M $2999 + ATU $299 = $3298 USD.  
IC-7610 price in USD?  couldn't find it yet, but it's £2,999.99 (swling.com) and $Cdn4995.00 (radioworld.ca) so that's maybe ~ $3700+ USD?    hmmm, that's $400 more than the 6400M+ATU.  Am I missing something here?

I wonder where the new Flex radio's electronics are manufactured to keep them so low-priced?  Any guesses?

Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on June 01, 2017, 07:14:38 PM
They used to be made in Texas, which is almost in the US.
Don't know about the new ones..


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6AER on June 01, 2017, 08:08:04 PM
Called DX ENGINEERING today to find out about the pricing on the 7610. They think a bit North of $3600. They expect to start shipping the ICOM in the Fall.

Dayton (Xenia) was interesting to see the concern about Flex's new offering from the Icom booth. The 7610 was positioned in the back. The 6400M was out on the edge of the walkways.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 03:19:22 AM
Probably still made in TX. They've made cost reductions in the design (such as no providing foster mic connectors and putting 1/8" TRS instead)  to get the price down.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 05:42:02 AM
The 7610 has two independent receivers (flex calls them SCUs). You can get these in the 6600 but not the 6400.

The one thing that bothered me about the icom booth and the 7610 is that nobody really knew whether it had an I/Q output. It's my opinion that this is a critical feature of a SDR. They were also playing recordings and not actual signals like the flexes were (remotely over the Internet).

But I believe the icom will sell, if not for nothing people will buy the brand name. I just hope they don't have the overload problems that the 7300 does.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on June 02, 2017, 07:14:49 AM
I was all hot to trot on the 7610 but with there current stated price of  $3700 I am looking more at the flex. Yes the Icom has a pretty faced front panel but to me the built in antenna tuner is a huge waste, I could really just go with the 6400 for now and even of I wanted the M version the flex is $700 less.  Flex is boasting RMD numbers of 116db which places it above  Icom 7851 and the RMD numbers slated for the 7610 are around 110db but we will have to wait on some real lab numbers but to be honest either is very good. The real test is how well the Icom will handle strong nearby signals either on the same band or from a close nearby amateur transmitting on another band cause the 7300's second order IMD numbers sucked. The Digi select in the new Icom should help but the second order numbers and maybe place the performance above the 7th order band pass filters in the Flex 6600 but only time will tell but if that does help the 7610 then that is were that $700 is well spent if your into contesting but normal operating would not really buy you much. It look like Flex has geared up to the competition and the big three are slow out of the starting gate with Icom having a slight edge over the other two from Japan. The 7300 was a huge hit for the price but it is not a state of the art design by no means, its technology used is already 5 years old as far as SDR designs go and who knows what exactly is used in the 7610 yet but Flex is more state of the art for us normal users only to be bested by Anan but that is IT hobby radio in my eye's were Flex is more for the masses.
I feel very strongly that if Icom does want to compete and really sell against other SDR companies the 7610 would be better at the $3K price point but I bet there were very surprised what Flex did at Dayton this year, I am sure they didn't see it coming at all, Flex really kept a good secret even till that very morning.
As far as PR work for the contest community for years K3LR's station has been only Icom radio's but Flex made there huge splash with using K9CT's super station as well but not only did K9CT start using Flex rigs I bet that he had a huge input as to what is needed in a top station radio design and Flex did have open ears. That is were the companies from Japan just don't really listen much, the last time they did that was when Yaesu developed the FT1000D but after that they seemed not to really keep an open mind.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 07:51:50 AM
The Flex 116dB RMDR number is preliminary. Gerald and Steve had said it could be better in lab testing. But for now 116dB is it.



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2WQ on June 02, 2017, 01:46:02 PM

But I believe the icom will sell, if not for nothing people will buy the brand name. I just hope they don't have the overload problems that the 7300 does.


Considering you do not own an Icom 7300, you should not be making any statements that are not supported by either hard data or personal experience.

Rob Sherwood measured both the 7300 and one of the 6000 series and established that both overload at the statistically identical point (measured in dBm). The only difference is that Icom has an overload indicator and Flex does not. Note also that the 7300 has a lot more RF, which arguably is indeed too much. You should really take the time to understand what you writing and get your facts right. It takes very little effort to search for and read the study. You may also learn about the difference between the 14 vs. 16-bit ADC and the bottom line will surprise you.

So identical overload points aside, it is important to keep in mind that people who do see the overload indicator do not know how to use the radio. It is really that simple. In all videos showing an overload you can see the RF gain is waaaaaaay to high. How can you tell- the waterfall is completely filled with solid color or color noise. The right thing to do is simply dial back the RF gain until all color noise disappears.

I have personally used the 7300 in 4 major contests (IARU 2016, CQ WW RTTY 2016, CQ WPX RTTY 2017, and CQ WPX CW 2017) for well over 6,000 QSOs, operating SO2R or M/S using triplexers and the same antennas for both radios. To put it in plain English, the input/outputs of both radios are connected to the same antennas. It doesn't get any more brutal on the ADC. The radios performed flawlessly without any overload or interference.

By the way, even though the 36 KHz DSP code is supposed to be the same as the previous Icoms, I don't think this is the case. I couldn't stand the under 250 Hz filters on the legacy Icoms, the 7300 is pleasure to use even at 100 Hz. There is a material difference in the DSP code.

So, by all means, go ahead and have your opinion on the Flex as you actually own one. When it comes to the Icom, however, I'd suggest you temper your speculations.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K7JQ on June 02, 2017, 02:58:09 PM
Look up N2RJ's qrz.com page. She's quite an accomplished ham and I applaud that. But also very tight with Flex Radio Systems. Nothing wrong with that, but you'll understand her bias towards Flex.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: NI8R on June 02, 2017, 04:49:24 PM
The Flex 116dB RMDR number is preliminary. Gerald and Steve had said it could be better in lab testing. But for now 116dB is it.



I dont believe any of those numbers hold true to all bands. The 7851 in my opinion better sounding receiver than my 6500, 15k roofing filter and dsp work as well as any of the flex filters. None of the filtering compares to the Anan with the buffers turned up , which has been quoted around 200db. My flex does not work as well on 80 and 160, not sure why but the filters are just not as good.

In my opinion, you get what you pay for, it is very obvious when you turn the icom on. Ask anyone who owns a 7851, they will tell you it is a very pleasant radio to use.

I have a very basic ic7100, it has a terrible front end, and does just fine in contest traffic. Not sure why all of the filter specs are needed, should start with clean transmitter.

Greg ni8r


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on June 02, 2017, 09:19:22 PM
Greg

I think the filtering at least in the Flex 6600 is based around an out of the box SO2R experience that doesn't need another $1000 worth of RX filtering and switching. 

73


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 09:45:53 PM
Look up N2RJ's qrz.com page. She's quite an accomplished ham and I applaud that. But also very tight with Flex Radio Systems. Nothing wrong with that, but you'll understand her bias towards Flex.

Oh I am totally biased, but who isn't.

What I am not is beholden to the company. I don't work for them and I only bought one after looking at all available options, after 10 years of using icom (which has served me rather well). I almost bought a K3S but couldn't stand the front panel.

I almost bought a 7300 but the lack of the 2nd receiver and lack of I/Q output were huge negatives. I found that for an SDR it wasn't fully using a lot of SDR technology.

I also really didn't like the direct conversion radios like the 1500, 3000 or 1000 (the first one, whatever it was called), nor do I like the all in one 5000c. The 6000 series was the first commercial SDR that I felt was mature enough to actually get one.

I do have a long history with SDR experimentation- softrocks, Atlas based HPSDR etc. Attended DCC a few times, and I have a MSEE with a minor in math (in my undergrad). I find the whole field fascinating.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 09:49:27 PM
The Flex 116dB RMDR number is preliminary. Gerald and Steve had said it could be better in lab testing. But for now 116dB is it.



I dont believe any of those numbers hold true to all bands. The 7851 in my opinion better sounding receiver than my 6500, 15k roofing filter and dsp work as well as any of the flex filters. None of the filtering compares to the Anan with the buffers turned up , which has been quoted around 200db. My flex does not work as well on 80 and 160, not sure why but the filters are just not as good.

In my opinion, you get what you pay for, it is very obvious when you turn the icom on. Ask anyone who owns a 7851, they will tell you it is a very pleasant radio to use.

I have a very basic ic7100, it has a terrible front end, and does just fine in contest traffic. Not sure why all of the filter specs are needed, should start with clean transmitter.

Greg ni8r

I don't think RMDR is consistent for all radios either. Rob did mention that in his CTU presentation. He has been testing on several bands now including 10m where the 6700 and 6300 dropped a few notches lower. BUt he did say anything >80dB is really just a numbers game and inconsequential to real world operation.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 02, 2017, 10:12:33 PM
Considering you do not own an Icom 7300, you should not be making any statements that are not supported by either hard data or personal experience.

Rob Sherwood measured both the 7300 and one of the 6000 series and established that both overload at the statistically identical point (measured in dBm). The only difference is that Icom has an overload indicator and Flex does not. Note also that the 7300 has a lot more RF, which arguably is indeed too much. You should really take the time to understand what you writing and get your facts right. It takes very little effort to search for and read the study. You may also learn about the difference between the 14 vs. 16-bit ADC and the bottom line will surprise you.

So identical overload points aside, it is important to keep in mind that people who do see the overload indicator do not know how to use the radio. It is really that simple. In all videos showing an overload you can see the RF gain is waaaaaaay to high. How can you tell- the waterfall is completely filled with solid color or color noise. The right thing to do is simply dial back the RF gain until all color noise disappears.

I have personally used the 7300 in 4 major contests (IARU 2016, CQ WW RTTY 2016, CQ WPX RTTY 2017, and CQ WPX CW 2017) for well over 6,000 QSOs, operating SO2R or M/S using triplexers and the same antennas for both radios. To put it in plain English, the input/outputs of both radios are connected to the same antennas. It doesn't get any more brutal on the ADC. The radios performed flawlessly without any overload or interference.

By the way, even though the 36 KHz DSP code is supposed to be the same as the previous Icoms, I don't think this is the case. I couldn't stand the under 250 Hz filters on the legacy Icoms, the 7300 is pleasure to use even at 100 Hz. There is a material difference in the DSP code.

So, by all means, go ahead and have your opinion on the Flex as you actually own one. When it comes to the Icom, however, I'd suggest you temper your speculations.

You're right, I don't own one. I'm relying on documentation of the actual architecture of the radio - 14 bit ADC, very little front end filtering, as well as user reports. I considered buying one but the potential overload issue scared me off. It still is a very good value, $1200 if you shop around and pretty decent performance.

The 36kHz IF I mentioned because I found that by doing that Icom isn't really making available the full benefits of direct sampling SDR. You can't run wideband CW skimmer with it, nor any panadapter software, except RS-BA1 and it's not as fast and fluid as even a K3S with LP-Pan. I like to see spectrum as well as hear it, which is why I owned a 7000 (still do), 756ProIII and now a Flex-6700.

Quote
Rob Sherwood measured both the 7300 and one of the 6000 series and established that both overload at the statistically identical point (measured in dBm).

There are different 6000 series radios. The 6300 is a different radio from the 6500 and 6700. I can believe that the 6300 overloads as easily as a 7300 but not the 6500 or 6700. The dynamic range numbers don't back that up either.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: ZENKI on June 09, 2017, 04:47:57 PM
One thing that is certain is that both these radios will have poor transmitter IMD performance that will always be unacceptable. Thats certainly a given for most amateur HF transmitters these days. Sherwood does not measure transmitter IMD performance. The great transceiver  real world technical performance delusion still continues!


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on June 09, 2017, 06:58:25 PM
What level of Tx IMD can we actually hear?    (I am of course referring to those IMD products that fall within the intended audio passband). 

There is no FCC rule on that actual level for Part 97 (Ham) transmitters, I believe, even for all in-band products that are outside of the modulation passband.  FCC 47 part 97.307 just says "must not cause splatter or keyclick interference", whatever level that means.  Any idea what IMD levels a good commercial ham transmitter typically achieves these days?

However FWIW, any and all spurious products of a modern HF Tx, including Intermod and Harmonic distortion of any type that fall *out of band* have to be -43 dBc, according to FCC 47 part 97.307.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KC9NRN on June 15, 2017, 11:37:12 AM
I'm going to try and present this with as little bias as I can because I don't really have a dog in your purchase hunt.  
73  W9OY

LMAO, the day you are un-biased is the day I will buy another Flexradio.......    ;) :D :D :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ

He does post pertinent information about both though, haven't seen this from you, but you do whine a lot about Flex every chance you get. How long has it been since you owned one and you still belly ache on every Flex thread you can find.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KC9NRN on June 15, 2017, 11:40:21 AM
Thanks Brian.  I live under NDA and I struggle with how detailed to get when describing things for fear of saying too much, while still trying to advance understanding in some way.  My goal is the reader comes out with a little finer appreciation of how the radio/s work, and maybe have a little clearer understanding on how to make a purchase decision, on longevity and obsolescence.  Your explanation was excellent especially regarding the functional signal path.  Knowledge is very much the key.

73  W9OY

Would you recommend an upgrade from the 6300 to the 6400 or 6400M?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on June 16, 2017, 07:13:35 AM
Thanks Brian.  I live under NDA and I struggle with how detailed to get when describing things for fear of saying too much, while still trying to advance understanding in some way.  My goal is the reader comes out with a little finer appreciation of how the radio/s work, and maybe have a little clearer understanding on how to make a purchase decision, on longevity and obsolescence.  Your explanation was excellent especially regarding the functional signal path.  Knowledge is very much the key.

73  W9OY

Would you recommend an upgrade from the 6300 to the 6400 or 6400M?

Like anything, "it depends."

Ask yourself what you do with your radio. If you do contesting, weak signal/crowded band DXing then it would probably be worth the upgrade. If you just rag chew or work JT65, I'd say no.

If you want to simply retain value in your radio, I'd say upgrade and trade in via the Flex trade in program.

Personally if I had to get a radio today other than the 6700 (which I have) I would get the 6600 instead of the 6400. I would forego the M model in favor of a standalone maestro. It has two independent receivers and can do things like SO2R and diversity receive which the 6400 cannot do.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N9AOP on June 20, 2017, 07:46:18 AM
I am sure that flex makes some good equipment even though I never owned any.  But if ICOM has a real winner in the 7610 they will be hard to compete against due to their deep pockets giving them the ability to hold the prices down while they mass produce thousands of units.
Art


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on June 20, 2017, 01:28:27 PM
I am sure that flex makes some good equipment even though I never owned any.  But if ICOM has a real winner in the 7610 they will be hard to compete against due to their deep pockets giving them the ability to hold the prices down while they mass produce thousands of units.
Art

No argument;  Icom is going to sell more unit volume, just based on word/exposure/reputation of the IC-7300.
That said, these threads really get silly.    Both Flex and Icom now have enough experience in SDR architecture and the associated
software/firmware, that they both are making really fine radios that any ham can enjoy (well, maybe except for Stan or Zenki).
Each brand will have different strong points and weak points, no different than comparing Ford and Chevy.
But both will make most of their owners very happy campers.

But again, being a larger company, and having made a huge success out of the lower priced 7300, Icom stands to outship any other
SDR radio company by at least 10 to 1.   Again, it's not all-or-nothing.  It's just an observation. They all work well.
No matter if you personally choose an Icom, Flex, Anan, or SunSDR MB-1, you really are going to have a huge amount of fun
compared to an older boat anchor radio.  [You can chase numbers on Sherwood and chase after ultimate perfection, or you can
just get one of these rigs and start chasing contacts.  There is no ONE right answer.  Your choice will be just fine.]

The later part of this year should be very interesting if both the new Flex and Icom ship on time.
We have some really great toys to choose from these days.   But the gear is good enough; We should really turn
our attention to figuring out how to get the Solar Cycle kicked up, else not even an SDR driving a 5 kilowatt transmitter
is going to make any difference for HF :-)

Cheers


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on June 23, 2017, 04:21:46 PM
KC9NRN

I haven't used the 6400 but it has slightly better specs than the 6300.  It has a little stronger RMDR and has a somewhat better array of I/O including a 10mhz GPIO.  It's basically a budget thing.  I think a factory refurb 6300 is going to be one hell of a deal for someone wanting to give Flex style SDR a whirl.  Personally I never found a situation where the better RMDR would have made any difference given my antenna situation.  If you're into receive antennas like loops and flags and such the extra antenna ports are quite useful especially if your using these extra antennas from a remote device. 

So for me the determining factor would be the kind of station I would be integrating into.  The 6300 can manage 3 possible antennas or 2 and a transverter, the 6400 can manage 4, or 3 and a transverter.  On the other hand there is the joy of owning the latest.  If budget wasn't an issue I would get a 6700.  My main interest is DXing.  If contesting is your main interest a 6600 is your hands down winner.  If you have some xtra ham money, you're happy with your antennas and amp, and want the latest a 6400.  Right now I'm keeping my 6300 as a backup since it drops directly into my software lineup with virtually no changes if I have an issue with my 6700 and it's paid for.     

73  W9OY


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on June 24, 2017, 04:00:14 PM
The guys at HRO said the 7610 will not be out till October or later...


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9ZIM on June 28, 2017, 07:23:37 AM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on June 28, 2017, 08:05:51 AM
I don't mind spending a bit of money to try new radios.
I have had a DUO, a KX2 a KX3 and a 7300 lately.
I liked the KX2 and may get another at some point.
Its a hobby, I spend money to have fun and try new radios, what is the problem with that?

You don't fish I suppose. Some guys buy a boat and lots of gear, and something to haul the boat with, etc, when they could just go to the store and buy a fish for $20.00....

I often buy used radios (and motorcycles) and lose little money, I have made money on some motorcycles.
Many radios I sell for what I paid and am only out shipping.

Went through a bunch of Ten Tec radios, all the 756 pro series, most of the Elecraft and older flex radios.
Many spend much more just on their towers/antenna's then I ever did in the hobby.




Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9ZIM on June 28, 2017, 11:49:46 AM
Looks like I struck a nerve.  :D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N4UE on June 28, 2017, 01:47:04 PM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?

Ever see a Brinks truck in a funeral procession?
Money's sole purpose (IMHO) is to ENJOY!

ron
N4UE


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KD8TUT on June 28, 2017, 02:54:48 PM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?

Ever see a Brinks truck in a funeral procession?
Money's sole purpose (IMHO) is to ENJOY!

ron
N4UE

There are never any Uhauls behind the hearse...


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on June 28, 2017, 03:25:45 PM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?

Ever see a Brinks truck in a funeral procession?
Money's sole purpose (IMHO) is to ENJOY!

ron
N4UE


+1

I vote for N4UE.
He who dies with the most toys.....   HAD FUN!


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on June 29, 2017, 05:29:36 AM
No, just a slow day at work.


Looks like I struck a nerve.  :D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on June 29, 2017, 12:44:55 PM
The guys at HRO said the 7610 will not be out till October or later...

I can wait, the Flex 6400 probably will not be out for at least another year anyway.  Just a guess but based on the IC-7300 sales I would expect the Icom to outsell the Flex offerings by a pretty wide margin.  Maybe they should drag a 7610 to their booth at Hamvention next year and do their best to publically bad mouth it.  You know, maybe smash it with a hammer first just to make sure it will perform poorly. That might turn the tables for them. ::)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on June 29, 2017, 12:52:02 PM
The guys at HRO said the 7610 will not be out till October or later...

Just a guess but based on the IC-7300 sales I would expect the Icom to outsell the Flex offerings by a pretty wide margin. 

I believe you are correct. I also suspect Icom has to sell more units than Flex in order to make a profit.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N4UE on June 29, 2017, 01:55:02 PM
The guys at HRO said the 7610 will not be out till October or later...

I can wait, the Flex 6400 probably will not be out for at least another year anyway.  Just a guess but based on the IC-7300 sales I would expect the Icom to outsell the Flex offerings by a pretty wide margin.  Maybe they should drag a 7610 to their booth at Hamvention next year and do their best to publically bad mouth it.  You know, maybe smash it with a hammer first just to make sure it will perform poorly. That might turn the tables for them. ::)

This reminds me of a similar experience back at IBM/Lexmark before I retired. We were in a constant "one-upsmanship" battle with HP. I don't know about now, but back then, HP bought their printer 'engines' from Canon. They put on their logos, etc. They produced a similar 'snarky' video about how their printer was 'better' than ours.
My MGT chain had me build one of their printers with loose 'guts' and we tossed it off the 3rd floor roof of our Engineering building. When it hit the parking lot, it was like a mini mushroom cloud. My buddy also took an HP to the target range and shot it on video,
Of course, you couldn't do that today, but it was a GREAT morale booster. ha ha

ron
N4UE


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K8EZB on June 29, 2017, 06:05:17 PM
Why choose now? Buy both, use for awhile, sell the one you like least.

While you're at it, why not burn a big pile of money?

Well ... looks like both can likely be purchased for under $10K. For some, $10K is "a big pile of money." For others, not so much. My point was that both radios are likely to be in demand and the one sold would likely bring top dollar, so not such a big pile.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KC9NRN on June 30, 2017, 10:48:07 AM
KC9NRN

I haven't used the 6400 but it has slightly better specs than the 6300.  It has a little stronger RMDR and has a somewhat better array of I/O including a 10mhz GPIO.  It's basically a budget thing.  I think a factory refurb 6300 is going to be one hell of a deal for someone wanting to give Flex style SDR a whirl.  Personally I never found a situation where the better RMDR would have made any difference given my antenna situation.  If you're into receive antennas like loops and flags and such the extra antenna ports are quite useful especially if your using these extra antennas from a remote device. 

So for me the determining factor would be the kind of station I would be integrating into.  The 6300 can manage 3 possible antennas or 2 and a transverter, the 6400 can manage 4, or 3 and a transverter.  On the other hand there is the joy of owning the latest.  If budget wasn't an issue I would get a 6700.  My main interest is DXing.  If contesting is your main interest a 6600 is your hands down winner.  If you have some xtra ham money, you're happy with your antennas and amp, and want the latest a 6400.  Right now I'm keeping my 6300 as a backup since it drops directly into my software lineup with virtually no changes if I have an issue with my 6700 and it's paid for.     

73  W9OY

I thought about trading for the 6400, I would love the 6600 but that is out of my budget for now. The 6400 is supposed to do better receive than the 6300, the trade in value isn't bad so it wouldn't be a huge cost to move from the 6300 to the 6400.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W1BG on July 01, 2017, 08:14:21 PM
The 7610 was suddenly pulled back to Japan immediately after some bugs were discovered at Dayton. Serious enough of an issue that the demo rig did not make it to Ham-Com in Dallas this year, which pissed off some folks that went there hoping to see it.  Icom folks at Dallas were telling folks "October~November time frame" which at best is a soft date.  Its for sure they have a lot of pre-orders to fill.  If I'm lucky I may see mine by Valentine's day.

Flex is still telling folks "August~September time frame" on the 6400M.  I ordered one of those as well just as a hedge.  Figure I'll sell the one I like the least.  Not especially enthused about the 800 x 480 VGA resolution from the 7610. Perhaps a little prettier rig but sure hard to ignore that 1980 x 1200 4k UHD video coming out of the Flex. Gosh. The 6400M is also a dual receiver (contrary to what someone else posted earlier).  The Flex also has a nice 10-band tx EQ and supports Synchronous AM reception (nice for SWL'ing) and both AM & SSB rx audio extending down to 50Hz on the bottom end (7610 rx filter chops off at 200hz).  There are ample differences in the two rigs to make one or the other compelling depending on one's preferences.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Flex but will reserve judgment until they're here.

Also interesting that the 7610 does not appear that it will have 70 Mhz (4 meters) for our UK friends. That's kind of an interesting departure from the 7300.



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3TCV on July 26, 2017, 06:27:41 AM
Just want it our folks, don't rush into either radio as they are yet to be released and everyone is just guessing on how they will work based on data charts.  Just calm down and let the dust settle, I'm sure all of your current $2000-$9000 radios will work fine in the meantime :)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on July 26, 2017, 02:11:35 PM
"But I want, I want, I need, Ineed.........."

            (https://elpensatoriumdelibros.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/jonah-hill-excited-gif.gif?w=319&h=255)

 Just calm down and let the dust settle................


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K0IZ on July 26, 2017, 06:47:31 PM
Elecraft has two good SDR's, KX2 and KX3.  So my guess is that a SDR replacement for the K3 is not too far down the road.   Elecraft products are well engineered, so a SDR K4 (or whatever) should be a standout.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on July 27, 2017, 08:37:59 AM
The 7610 was suddenly pulled back to Japan immediately after some bugs were discovered at Dayton. Serious enough of an issue that the demo rig did not make it to Ham-Com in Dallas this year, which pissed off some folks that went there hoping to see it.  Icom folks at Dallas were telling folks "October~November time frame" which at best is a soft date.  Its for sure they have a lot of pre-orders to fill.  If I'm lucky I may see mine by Valentine's day.

Flex is still telling folks "August~September time frame" on the 6400M.  I ordered one of those as well just as a hedge.  Figure I'll sell the one I like the least.  Not especially enthused about the 800 x 480 VGA resolution from the 7610. Perhaps a little prettier rig but sure hard to ignore that 1980 x 1200 4k UHD video coming out of the Flex. Gosh. The 6400M is also a dual receiver (contrary to what someone else posted earlier).  The Flex also has a nice 10-band tx EQ and supports Synchronous AM reception (nice for SWL'ing) and both AM & SSB rx audio extending down to 50Hz on the bottom end (7610 rx filter chops off at 200hz).  There are ample differences in the two rigs to make one or the other compelling depending on one's preferences.  Right now I'm leaning toward the Flex but will reserve judgment until they're here.

Also interesting that the 7610 does not appear that it will have 70 Mhz (4 meters) for our UK friends. That's kind of an interesting departure from the 7300.


I think the move to review the design was a very prudent one on Icoms part.  It would be bad for business to show up at a major ham radio convention with a defective product.  All new rigs go through a similar process, Elecraft had to fix a lot of bugs after releasing the original K3 because they could not afford to go back to the factory and wait, a luxury that big manufacturers like Icom have.

I guess I don't see why you think that's a bad thing?  Like the IC-7300 they will come to the market with a radio that works and doesn't need a bunch of patches and firmware updates to make it work correctly.  I for one, appreciate that kind of diligence by any company.

As for 70MHZ, that is not present on a lot of rigs because it requires the addition of a different band pass filter, transmit mixing, and filtering arrangement for a very small market segment so I am certain it is purely an economic issue.  And who cares anyway, the majority of the market is here in the US so 50 MHZ makes sense, besides they can also use it in the UK.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on August 06, 2017, 09:45:52 PM
Sorry but the KX2&KX3 radio's are zero IF DSP based radio's, not true SDR radio's like the Flex or the Icom's 7300/7610, they may want to make you think its SDR like but they are not, its a real slick system for a simple design.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6RZ on August 06, 2017, 11:52:00 PM
Sorry but the KX2&KX3 radio's are zero IF DSP based radio's, not true SDR radio's like the Flex or the Icom's 7300/7610, they may want to make you think its SDR like but they are not, its a real slick system for a simple design.

This is a "true" SDR.

https://www.ettus.com/product/details/UB200-KIT

The Icom, Flex and Elecraft products are appliances. Can you create a signal like this with them?

(http://www.w6rz.net/paintpanda.png)

DSP code is here.

https://github.com/drmpeg/gr-paint


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 07, 2017, 05:57:36 AM


This is a "true" SDR.

https://www.ettus.com/product/details/UB200-KIT

The Icom, Flex and Elecraft products are appliances. Can you create a signal like this with them?



No, that'll never stimulate the kiddies, apparently needs to be kinda more like this............

                   (https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2414/1717929526_e9da5d5eee_m.jpg)

                   .............. ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on August 07, 2017, 07:52:42 AM
The Icom, Flex and Elecraft products are appliances.

All very nice radios with their fans and detractors. I'm sure I'd be happy with any of them.

The USRP B200 does look interesting though.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K7JQ on August 07, 2017, 08:13:21 AM
The USRP B200 does look interesting though.

Designed for low cost experimentation...$745. I guess for some, and their intentions, it's "low cost". :)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on August 07, 2017, 09:20:27 AM
Sorry but the KX2&KX3 radio's are zero IF DSP based radio's, not true SDR radio's like the Flex or the Icom's 7300/7610, they may want to make you think its SDR like but they are not, its a real slick system for a simple design.

You are right on, and the Elecraft radios are proof that a well designed analog front end can still perform as well as any digital sampling radio.  It is a slick design but they also use high quality components and that makes a big difference in performance.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6RZ on August 07, 2017, 09:23:42 AM

All very nice radios with their fans and detractors. I'm sure I'd be happy with any of them.

The USRP B200 does look interesting though.

I was just trying to point out the absurdity of KE2TR's post about "true" SDR's. To me, a "true" SDR is one where you can actually change the software on and transmit or receive arbitrary waveforms. The Ettus B200 is sold with only a driver to send and receive IQ samples, no applications at all. Also, it's a zero IF architecture, which is the only way to cheaply have a 70 MHz to 6 GHz range (look how expensive the Icom IC-R8600 is with it's analog down converters).

In reality, the Ettus B200 is a pretty poor choice for most ham radio applications. You can't even control a T/R relay with it. For traditional ham radio modes, I have an IC-7300 and TS-590S. But after 35 years as a ham, I'm bored silly with traditional ham radio and now spend all my radio hobby time writing DSP software.

The spectrum painter is just a goofy application that I wrote for fun. It's probably the most inefficient communications format ever designed. It takes around 15 seconds to paint that waterfall image in a 2 MHz bandwidth.

However, I'm working on more useful stuff including the AMSAT Phase 4 project.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on August 07, 2017, 10:08:36 AM

The spectrum painter is just a goofy application that I wrote for fun. It's probably the most inefficient communications format ever designed. It takes around 15 seconds to paint that waterfall image in a 2 MHz bandwidth.

However, I'm working on more useful stuff including the AMSAT Phase 4 project.



I understand, and that's an interesting app. Good luck with your endeavors.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KC9NRN on August 07, 2017, 12:04:52 PM
"But I want, I want, I need, Ineed.........."



This is you every time you see a topic or post you can use an animated gif for, you can actually hear the squealing.

(https://elpensatoriumdelibros.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/jonah-hill-excited-gif.gif?w=319&h=255)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 07, 2017, 02:05:30 PM
"But I want, I want, I need, Ineed.........."



This is you every time you see a topic or post you can use an animated gif for, you can actually hear the squealing.



Well thank you, glad you liked it.............

               (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9d/8c/59/9d8c59a4ea211137ecf4f210201087cf--criminal-minds-wisdom-words.jpg)

                               ............... ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on August 07, 2017, 02:43:14 PM
Darn it;  ever since I hit that IGNORE button, I feel like I am
missing out on something.  I can't see any more childish animated GIF's from Scotland,
and the only thing in the body of a post says;   "This user is currently ignored."

Imagine that;  nothing but useful and interesting technical discussion, void of GM1FLQ
adolescent disruption...  (Wonder why QRZ banned him and eHam does not?)

What?   What, FLQ?   Sorry, I can't hear you...

Why did it take so long to notice what that button was for?  :-)  :-)

(https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/metalgear/images/7/7f/Hear-No-Evil-See-No-Evil-Speak-No-Evil.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/640)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on August 07, 2017, 05:04:57 PM
I can't see any more childish animated GIF's from Scotland,
and the only thing in the body of a post says;   "This user is currently ignored."

Imagine that;  nothing but useful and interesting technical discussion, void of GM1FLQ
adolescent disruption...  
Why did it take so long to notice what that button was for?  :-)  :-)


I know! Ignoring two troublemakers last week has been nothing but blissful for me. Sure you get the "This user is currently ignored." notification, which beats whatever nonsense they're spewing. And it really makes the ignored ones look pitiful when you see 20 or 30 posts in one thread that says "This user is currently ignored.". It's awesome to be able to read posts without having to see their repetitive nonsense that adds absolutely nothing to a discussion.

Looking forward to more posts about the Flex versus Icom.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on August 07, 2017, 05:55:21 PM
Wow that ignore button works great, its like all these oxy morons are gone. ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 07, 2017, 10:34:40 PM
Darn it;  ever since I hit that IGNORE button, I feel like I am
missing out on something.  I can't see any more childish animated GIF's from Scotland,
and the only thing in the body of a post says;   "This user is currently ignored."

Imagine that;  nothing but useful and interesting technical discussion, void of GM1FLQ
adolescent disruption...  (Wonder why QRZ banned him and eHam does not?)

What?   What, FLQ?   Sorry, I can't hear you...



              (http://www.b17.ru/foto/uploaded/062225a65bb076016b1485aa0ee224a0.jpg)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 07, 2017, 10:51:18 PM
I can't see any more childish animated GIF's from Scotland,
and the only thing in the body of a post says;   "This user is currently ignored."

Imagine that;  nothing but useful and interesting technical discussion, void of GM1FLQ
adolescent disruption...  
Why did it take so long to notice what that button was for?  :-)  :-)


I know! Ignoring two troublemakers last week has been nothing but blissful for me. Sure you get the "This user is currently ignored." notification, which beats whatever nonsense they're spewing. And it really makes the ignored ones look pitiful when you see 20 or 30 posts in one thread that says "This user is currently ignored.". It's awesome to be able to read posts without having to see their repetitive nonsense that adds absolutely nothing to a discussion.

Looking forward to more posts about the Flex versus Icom.

Awww bless him, he's all pleased with himself........

            (https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAANUAAAAJGI2MTBmNjhjLTI3ZTEtNDQyNy05MzIyLThiZWI0NDYxMTQ2NA.jpg)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 07, 2017, 11:05:40 PM
Wow that ignore button works great, its like all these oxy morons are gone. ;D

..........you couldn't make it up, they're too busy patting themselves on the back to stop and think about that one  ;D............


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on August 08, 2017, 09:11:16 AM
Wow that ignore button works great, its like all these oxy morons are gone. ;D

You are right, the Ignore button works nicely......

Now if we could only get those jerks (you know who you are) to STOP quoting FLQ, eham could become an intelligent forum once again..

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KC9NRN on August 08, 2017, 09:33:18 AM
Wow that ignore button works great, its like all these oxy morons are gone. ;D

You are right, the Ignore button works nicely......

Now if we could only get those jerks (you know who you are) to STOP quoting FLQ, eham could become an intelligent forum once again..

Stan K9IUQ

Well eHam does still have you to troll the Flex posts after all.  ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on August 08, 2017, 10:56:52 AM
The ignore button works great there is the likes of this N2 guy who instead of adding anything of value to a post he is like these fellows here that only get there kicks from busting others chops, thank you N6YFM, now I can read the intelligent posts here on E Ham without getting all the fill BS.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on August 08, 2017, 01:38:16 PM
but until any one of the 6400 or 6600 or 7610 actually arrives in someone's shack to tell us what it's like, there is nothing of any serious value to add anyway in this thread... so why not be entertained in the meantime?    :o   :P   ::)   ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on August 08, 2017, 01:48:58 PM
Team:

Since the news from Icom has gone silent on the IC-7610, let's turn discussion to Flex.
Is flex sharing any recent news, progress reports, or info about the new 6400M or 6600M?
I do know that Flex will show up in September at HamCon in Southern California, so we
can ask more questions of them at that time.

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on August 09, 2017, 12:31:24 AM
Team:

Since the news from Icom has gone silent on the IC-7610, let's turn discussion to Flex.
Is flex sharing any recent news, progress reports, or info about the new 6400M or 6600M?
I do know that Flex will show up in September at HamCon in Southern California, so we
can ask more questions of them at that time.

Neal

That went well   :-\...........

See, it's all went flat & he's missing my company already.   ;D


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on August 09, 2017, 09:12:26 AM
yea.  there's nothing happening around here anymore....


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KE4U on August 16, 2017, 11:49:29 AM
Flex has just released shipping forecasts for the 6400 and 6600 models with and without the 'M' front panel. Running a month or so behind earlier forecasts but October will likely see some significant shipments based on the news release.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K8EZB on September 10, 2017, 05:34:21 AM
Quote
but October will likely see some significant shipments based on the news release.

The trend in shipment delays suggests otherwise. The natives over at the FRS Community website are getting restless. See this series of posts expressing concerns re FRS status as an ongoing business:

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex-deposit-and-trade-in-risk

Right now, it seems that all new Flex radios are made from unobtanium, including 63, 65, 67 series and 64, 66 series. My current understanding is that the only radios one can actually buy from Flex right now are refurbished units.

FWIIW, I am NOT a Flex basher. I was all set to order a maxed out 6700 when the newer models were announced. Caused me to pull back and wait for a 6800M (yet to be announced). Will still do this when a radio like this is readily available from stock, with favorable reviews.

Rick
K8EZB


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on September 10, 2017, 01:43:39 PM
Flex has just released shipping forecasts.........

So has Belfast Coastguard (formerly Clyde Coastguard here)  ;D............


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on September 11, 2017, 08:33:53 AM
Quote
but October will likely see some significant shipments based on the news release.

The trend in shipment delays suggests otherwise. The natives over at the FRS Community website are getting restless. See this series of posts expressing concerns re FRS status as an ongoing business:

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex-deposit-and-trade-in-risk

Right now, it seems that all new Flex radios are made from unobtanium, including 63, 65, 67 series and 64, 66 series. My current understanding is that the only radios one can actually buy from Flex right now are refurbished units.

FWIIW, I am NOT a Flex basher. I was all set to order a maxed out 6700 when the newer models were announced. Caused me to pull back and wait for a 6800M (yet to be announced). Will still do this when a radio like this is readily available from stock, with favorable reviews.

Rick
K8EZB

Interesting. Thanks for the info.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on September 11, 2017, 09:03:10 AM
Quote
but October will likely see some significant shipments based on the news release.

The trend in shipment delays suggests otherwise. The natives over at the FRS Community website are getting restless. See this series of posts expressing concerns re FRS status as an ongoing business:

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex-deposit-and-trade-in-risk

Right now, it seems that all new Flex radios are made from unobtanium, including 63, 65, 67 series and 64, 66 series. My current understanding is that the only radios one can actually buy from Flex right now are refurbished units.

FWIIW, I am NOT a Flex basher. I was all set to order a maxed out 6700 when the newer models were announced. Caused me to pull back and wait for a 6800M (yet to be announced). Will still do this when a radio like this is readily available from stock, with favorable reviews.

Rick
K8EZB

I read your blog with a great deal of interest.  In the thread that you pointed to Mark, the Customer Experience Manager at Flex, had this to say in response to your question. 

"There is no need to be unhappy, ham radio is just a hobby.  Your deposit is fully refundable.  If you so desire to cancel your order, feel free to contact Sales to get a refund."

That is a very odd response from a company official in any capacity.  The hobby aspect of ham radio has absolutely nothing to do with purchasing equipment from their company, they are, ostensibly, in business to produce and sell amateur radio equipment.  It almost sounds as though they need the deposit money to fulfil orders.  I have no way of knowing if that is true or not but the company reps answer was certainly not what I would have expected.  It could be a component related issue, the latest A/D chipsets are very expensive and might be in limited supply with big manufacturers who make large orders getting first dibs on available supply.

What do you make of it?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: OH6I on September 11, 2017, 11:44:27 AM
Official response from Steve, VP Engineering was:
"No doubt that if every customer that pre-ordered a radio decided not to buy, it would put us in a difficult position financially."
Hmmmm...  ::)

Jari
OH6I


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on September 11, 2017, 04:20:46 PM
Official response from Steve, VP Engineering was:
"No doubt that if every customer that pre-ordered a radio decided not to buy, it would put us in a difficult position financially."
Hmmmm...  ::)

Jari
OH6I

No Hmm about it my friend Jari. Flexradio has been financing their radios for years by getting interest free deposit $$$ from the Flex Lovers. What is new is that Flexradio is ADMITTING to it..

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/flex-deposit-and-trade-in-risk

https://community.flexradio.com/flexradio/topics/shipping-date-for-6600m?topic-reply-list%5Bsettings%5D%5Bfilter_by%5D=all

None of this is hardly surprising. Flexradio taking Depo$it money to fund their Radios, K9ZW passionately defending Flexradio and BullDog Tim shutting down negative Flexradio discussions, Nothing new....

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on September 11, 2017, 05:01:08 PM
Yes, they should just go out of business, along with Elecraft.
They can make radios in China without needing any deposits.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on September 11, 2017, 05:40:36 PM
I really think these chip sets used in Flex's newer 6400/6600 radio's are old hat compared to what is used in there commercial built radio's, the amateur market gets the left over spouge from there commercial side, the main delay is getting the production run together with all the build of materials since everything is on that main circuit board. What the Flex rep was really trying to say is if everyone canceled there orders they would have zero customers to buy there radio's and therefore fold. Amateur radio to Flex is another product line to them like Icom who really only basis 20-25% of there sales to Amateur radio gear, the rest is Marine radio, Avionics and two way radio. Companies like Yaesu and Kenwood are the ones hurting in this very limited marketplace and I mean it is very small by today's standards.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on September 11, 2017, 05:41:55 PM
Yes, they should just go out of business,

No, no one (including me) wants Flexradio to go out of business. They need to make radios that the average ham actually wants to buy. For Instance SDR radios with knobs at at a value packed price.. And they need to change some of their anti-customer business practices. Mostly the Flexradio Company just needs an attitude adjustment.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on September 11, 2017, 09:42:58 PM
Yes, they should just go out of business,

No, no one (including me) wants Flexradio to go out of business. They need to make radios that the average ham actually wants to buy. For Instance SDR radios with knobs at at a value packed price.. And they need to change some of their anti-customer business practices. Mostly the Flexradio Company just needs an attitude adjustment.

Stan K9IUQ

And, apparently, a rather large cash infusion to stay afloat...


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KF7DS on September 11, 2017, 10:03:16 PM
Yes, they should just go out of business,

No, no one (including me) wants Flexradio to go out of business. They need to make radios that the average ham actually wants to buy. For Instance SDR radios with knobs at at a value packed price.. And they need to change some of their anti-customer business practices. Mostly the Flexradio Company just needs an attitude adjustment.

Stan K9IUQ

Could not agree with yo more Stan. What is smarmy is that it would be very simple and inexpensive to set up an escrow to protect the deposits. The way Flex danced and did not give a straight yes/no answer was very telling of the company culture. Personally, I hope they have a hit but they really need to learn to be transparent, which they are not. Interesting that this would not be allowed in the EU....


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on September 12, 2017, 05:17:36 AM
Yes, they should just go out of business, along with Elecraft.
They can make radios in China without needing any deposits........

..........and do many other things that will, at best,  not necessarily have your interests at heart.  ;)..........


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on September 12, 2017, 07:15:07 AM

Quote
No, no one (including me) wants Flexradio to go out of business. They need to make radios that the average ham actually wants to buy. For Instance SDR radios with knobs at at a value packed price.. And they need to change some of their anti-customer business practices. Mostly the Flexradio Company just needs an attitude adjustment.

Stan K9IUQ

That was my take on it Stan, the attitude of the company rep was just all wrong.  That is how you drive customers away.

John.

I really think these chip sets used in Flex's newer 6400/6600 radio's are old hat compared to what is used in there commercial built radio's, the amateur market gets the left over spouge from there commercial side, the main delay is getting the production run together with all the build of materials since everything is on that main circuit board. What the Flex rep was really trying to say is if everyone canceled there orders they would have zero customers to buy there radio's and therefore fold. Amateur radio to Flex is another product line to them like Icom who really only basis 20-25% of there sales to Amateur radio gear, the rest is Marine radio, Avionics and two way radio. Companies like Yaesu and Kenwood are the ones hurting in this very limited marketplace and I mean it is very small by today's standards.

If they actually need customer funding to support the amateur operation then the commercial side must operate at a very low margin.  In fact, the entire company must be low margin.  Unless they are subbing out doing sub assembly for someone else then they are fighting an uphill battle because there are more than a few industry giants, companies that don't make ham radio equipment, who get the big contracts and little guys may only get a few crumbs.  As for the chip sets, I don't think the commercial gear would be much different in terms of the basic technology.  Analog Devices is the leader in fast A/D technology, their to of the line chips ar just under $1400.00 each in quantities of 1000 or more; http://www.analog.com/en/products/analog-to-digital-converters/high-speed-ad-10msps/ad9208.html#product-overview

I seriously doubt that Flex has a contract for a thousand radios or even five hundred radios for that matter so the cost of these chips is much higher in smaller quantities.  That explains why their amateur gear is so expensive, the chips are the cost driver, the rest of the stuff is pretty cheap by comparison.   Companies like Icom and Kenwood can afford to buy the chips in high quantities since they have very large commercial orders.  That keeps the price of their radios down, how do you think they were able to build the 7300 so well and still make a whopping profit? 

Bottom line is that Flex is a small fish in very big pond.  Giving potential customers attitude is a suicidal business practice for any company let alone a small fry that is trying to stay afloat.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on September 12, 2017, 04:42:20 PM
I think Flex has about 18 people working for it and the owner lives in a very modest house.
They are a very small company.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: GM1FLQ on September 12, 2017, 10:23:38 PM
I think Flex has about 18 people working for it and the owner lives in a very modest house.
They are a very small company.

Could be said that anyone that doesn't live in a castle/palace lives in a very modest house.  ;)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on September 14, 2017, 06:54:03 AM
I think Flex has about 18 people working for it and the owner lives in a very modest house.
They are a very small company.

Interesting, best of luck to Flex.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on September 14, 2017, 08:22:29 AM
I doubt they do it for the money.
I doubt they make a huge amount of money.
They don't sell stock, and are not part of a huge corporation.

Nor is Elecraft, and I think it would be lucky if they make enough money to put the kids through collage and have good health insurance.

Don't put them in with Icom, Kenwood, Sony and so on....


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on September 18, 2017, 06:12:24 PM
Aside from all the BS talk on these forums as far as what you all think Flex is doing as a company has anyone really looked at there commercial product line. It is mostly all receivers design for many different arrays of receiving technology, remote accesses plus able to cover vast frequency ranges. These radio's are not a hobbyist toy they are specific multi channel/frequency mode devises and what they design for there commercial customers first as far as technology dribbles down to there amateur market radio's. I don't really know there exact size but there amateur market might just have a lower employee count then there commercial side. The good thing is that when they do introduce a new product these technologies are proven way before they hit the streets, maybe some firmware hick ups but if you think that there deposits on these newer radio's are in any way helping them buy the components for the build of materials you got to believe in the Easter bunny. What these deposits are doing is giving them a very close count on what they need to purchase as far as component for the first of second production run, that my friend is smart manufacturing and business.
As far as Elacraft they hit the ground with fairly cheap and basic products in semi kit form, nothing like Heath Kit did back in the day. They captured the low power go anywhere qrp market and grew into the add and play 100w radio, small size and good performance arena. They then add assessors to there lines and becam a small but player in the amateur market. Although they haven't fully entered the full sdr market but just kind of made the KX3 a sort of almost sdr but there K3S is still a superhet down conversion box.
Flex is the first American company who has taken on the top tier of sherwoods RX list and placed there radio's 6700 at the top, now they are looking on bringing out two new radios that will more than likely join the 6700 at the top of that list at a very affordable price. For a small company that is excellent and wish them well. They are bringing sdr to the masses.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on September 21, 2017, 08:28:41 PM
does anybody have updates on product release dates for the Flex 6400/6600 or Icom IC-7610?

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on September 21, 2017, 10:32:23 PM
does anybody have updates on product release dates for the Flex 6400/6600 or Icom IC-7610?

73, Ed VE3WGO

I hung around the Flex booth at HamCon in Torrance, CA last weekend.  Asked a lot of very probing questions to
different staff, and played with the new radios a bit.   They have sold their entire first production run through January
or February.  And there was lots of well-to-do foot traffic placing more paid orders for beyond that.

Several of their employees were open with me about the deposits and the fear or rumor of cash flow issues.
They claimed it is basically what the previous post said;  Since they are a small company, it would be foolish to
pay for 10,000 orders of parts if they only get, for example, 3,000 initial orders.   The serious deposits show them
who is really likely to go ahead and take the purchase of the radio, hence it helps them with forecasting component
purchases and the size of each production run.   In addition, they were quite open about the fact that to help mitigate
problems of dying from cash flow starvation while growing too quickly, they basically worked out a "share the risk/burden/profit"
deal with their contract manufacturer, which takes a large part of the cash flow risk off of Flex.
They were quite excited about the sales growth they have seen for the last several months.

As far as Icom, while they backed out of this particular show (claiming cost for booth and hotel rooms), you all
know that the radio is very close to release since the final user manual has been posted in Japan on the public site.

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on September 22, 2017, 07:13:28 AM
does anybody have updates on product release dates for the Flex 6400/6600 or Icom IC-7610?

73, Ed VE3WGO

I hung around the Flex booth at HamCon in Torrance, CA last weekend.  Asked a lot of very probing questions to
different staff, and played with the new radios a bit.   They have sold their entire first production run through January
or February.  And there was lots of well-to-do foot traffic placing more paid orders for beyond that.

Several of their employees were open with me about the deposits and the fear or rumor of cash flow issues.
They claimed it is basically what the previous post said;  Since they are a small company, it would be foolish to
pay for 10,000 orders of parts if they only get, for example, 3,000 initial orders.   The serious deposits show them
who is really likely to go ahead and take the purchase of the radio, hence it helps them with forecasting component
purchases and the size of each production run.   In addition, they were quite open about the fact that to help mitigate
problems of dying from cash flow starvation while growing too quickly, they basically worked out a "share the risk/burden/profit"
deal with their contract manufacturer, which takes a large part of the cash flow risk off of Flex.
They were quite excited about the sales growth they have seen for the last several months.

As far as Icom, while they backed out of this particular show (claiming cost for booth and hotel rooms), you all
know that the radio is very close to release since the final user manual has been posted in Japan on the public site.

Neal

Thanks Neal, that was an excellent report.  It is tough to keep a small company in the black, especially in a market like amateur radio.  Looking forward to seeing what they come out with but I have to wonder if they have sold out the first run, if their production will ramp up based on projected interest.

As for Icom, I am pretty certain they could afford the booth and hotel if it was important to them.  They are close enough to the release date now that dog and pony shows won't have much impact on sales.   I think their attitude at this point is why spend the money?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on September 22, 2017, 10:32:04 AM

..... they basically worked out a "share the risk/burden/profit"
deal with their contract manufacturer, which takes a large part of the cash flow risk off of Flex. ......

Neal

Thanks for the update Neal. 

I was unaware that Flex doesn't make their own radios, but uses a contract manufacturer to do that.  I wonder if it's located in the USA or is it offshore (which might explain why this new generation of radios seems to be so cost competitive with the rest of the industry) ?

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on September 22, 2017, 04:41:08 PM

..... they basically worked out a "share the risk/burden/profit"
deal with their contract manufacturer, which takes a large part of the cash flow risk off of Flex. ......

Neal

Thanks for the update Neal. 

I was unaware that Flex doesn't make their own radios, but uses a contract manufacturer to do that.  I wonder if it's located in the USA or is it offshore (which might explain why this new generation of radios seems to be so cost competitive with the rest of the industry) ?

73, Ed VE3WGO

Almost all small and large companies that have *any* significant volume, use contract manufacturing.   It is a LOT cheaper
than renting another building, setting up dedicated mfg lines, and hiring full time staff for building, testing, inspecting,
hiring material purchasing agents, parts inventory room staff, hiring supervisors, facilities staff (and having all of that on your
payroll sitting around during quiet months).   Only one person ham companies, run in the home, still hand build each item on
site.  But I will not digress into a 6 page post on the economics and how you save by using contract firms.  Trust me, it's less
expensive to sub-contract.

You may not realize that for more than 25 years, even HP, IBM, Sun, Oracle, Cisco, etc, have all been using off-site
contract electronics manufacturing to eliminate the above costs.

Cheers,

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on September 22, 2017, 07:09:22 PM
The flex radios I have had were made in the US.
So were the Elecraft, although some of those were made in my basement...


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on September 23, 2017, 11:21:02 AM
Yea, it's pretty much normal now to get this stuff made in China.  Anywhere else would actually surprise me.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on September 23, 2017, 11:57:03 AM
Flex radios are American made.  The new amp is made in EU

73. W9OY


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on September 30, 2017, 09:04:59 AM
The only Elecraft rigs were the K2 and there early kits in which you had to do threw hole components and actually use a soldering to assemble, the K3/K3s/there amps KX3/KX2 plus all the accessories are just final mechanical assemblies, its not really like the heathkits or there K2 which are/were true kits. Having a board assembles by contract manufactures is what may US companies have done for years plus unless you have the inside track of these made in USA companies you would be surprise how many use off shore. Hell for all you know that K3S boards could be done in Mexico or China, boy that would be a laugh!   


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on October 01, 2017, 04:03:39 PM
yup, the USA gave it all away at least 15 years ago.  All except for mil-spec and specialized RF laminates such as Rogers Duroid and Getek, the main FRP and FR4 PCB manufacturers are in Hong Kong and Taiwan, with their high run factories in mainland China.  So yea, every manufacturer who likes to claim "Made in The USA" is really saying "final assembly" in the USA, and maybe a little bit less than that.

The truth is that every consumer electronics companies that you think of as "American", is really doing the HW & SW design, while the manufacturing and testing is done elsewhere by You know who.

It has reached the point where if for some reason, shipping from China were to go offline, the USA would choke.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on October 02, 2017, 03:01:45 PM
Its like Chinese food, they state they want best quality, lol. Back in the late 1990's I worked for an American manufacturer which at that time we did board layout here and the glass epoxy boards were made in Taiwan. The components were sourced either from Taiwan or here in the US, we also used filters by Collins BTW. The front panels were done here in the US as well as most of the metal work so except for some of the parts and boards it was built, tested and sold here in the good ole USA. Back then you could not get the Asian counterparts to build anything good but today is a way different story plus the companies that are doing that might make enough profit to stay in business.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 04, 2017, 06:57:10 AM
Its like Chinese food, they state they want best quality, lol. Back in the late 1990's I worked for an American manufacturer which at that time we did board layout here and the glass epoxy boards were made in Taiwan. The components were sourced either from Taiwan or here in the US, we also used filters by Collins BTW. The front panels were done here in the US as well as most of the metal work so except for some of the parts and boards it was built, tested and sold here in the good ole USA. Back then you could not get the Asian counterparts to build anything good but today is a way different story plus the companies that are doing that might make enough profit to stay in business.

You're spot on, there is almost no such thing as 100% made in America anymore.  The labor and material costs for tech products would eat you alive.  The only truly 100% made in America radios are for the military and they cost a fortune. 

From  your description it almost sounds like you worked for Ten Tec except they didn't use Collins filters.  I worked for Harris Corp. in the 70's and 80's, almost everything was made in the US except some semi-conductors that were made in Malaysia or Taiwan.  I was thinking Harris RF com but Long Island is a very long way from Rochester.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K3TIM on October 04, 2017, 07:05:18 AM
The 6k series and Maestro PWBs are made at a contract manufacturer in Austin, close to Flex.

Chinese food ?  I've had some damned good food in Hong Kong and Beijing. I mean really good.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W1BG on October 14, 2017, 02:03:29 PM
Flex radios are American made.  The new amp is made in EU

73. W9OY

The sub assemblies (circuit boards) that contain the thousands of tiny surface-mount devices are built by robots on a fully automated assembly line. It is a positively fascinating process to watch.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on October 19, 2017, 06:34:18 AM
It was a small company in St. James called Patcomm....


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 20, 2017, 09:13:03 AM
It was a small company in St. James called Patcomm....
I

 remember Patcomm radios.  The 16000 was one of the first DSP rigs on the market but they had a few bugs.  I knew a guy who bought the 9000 and he liked it when he first got it but complained about birdies and tuning problems.  As I recall they didn't last too long in the ham radio market.  Did they do government radios also?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on October 20, 2017, 06:11:50 PM
They tried to develop a man pack portable but after 9/11 everything went south, I got involved with the company 3 years  before they closed the doors, maybe if I was there earlier they would have gone into a different direction. The PC1600A was a re designed front panel which would have been different than the earlier versions, the 9000 would have been better as a qrp rig and the PC500 which if they had it out before the PC9000 would have been a better seller. They had the usual trouble with investors calling the shots instead of the designers but bottom line it was a small company.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 23, 2017, 06:40:08 AM
I have not seen anything out of Flex regarding the availability of the 6400 or the 6600 models.  They have them listed on their website under products but I have not heard of anyone buying either model yet. 

As for Icom, there is a rumor on Facebook that US dealers will get limited numbers of them in December but there is no way to substantiate that.  Also, there is nothing on the FCC web site that would indicate the IC-7610 has been submitted for Certification.  I don't think we will see either radio until sometime next year.  They are being sold in Japan and Australia but that seem to be it for now.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on October 24, 2017, 01:29:27 PM
Well;   I guess Icom won the race :-)

Flex was so sure of themselves that they would ship first.
But;  Real people in Japan are reporting having picked up their units at dealers,
and real USA people visiting Japan have played with them.

Flex, at the last ham convention I attended, was still using
"marketing-speak-wiggle-wording" similar to "Our entire first production run is
sold out, so if you order now, the soonest you could see a rig would be Feb or
March 2018".     Um, yeah, right.   Where are all the public reviews from all those
people who purchased "the first production run" that sold out?  :-)

Kudo's Icom.    No propaganda, no spin, no promises and grand-standing, you simply
disclosed delays and shipped when it was ready and ignored all the noise...

Well done.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on October 24, 2017, 06:41:30 PM
Flex has made hams mad with there Vapor ware tactics, They might perform a little better in the end but there extended roll out dates that keep getting pushed further away is pissing folks off, some of there orders are paid in full and I know two fellows now who want to cancel there orders. They need to step it up or Icom will beat them to the market.
If you really look at some of the current Flex owners they mostly come from either radio's like a Yaesu FT2000 which was dated by the time it hit the streets or Kenwood 570/590 series and ProII or III Icoms which were all very good radio's when they first came out but going to a Flex 6300 was a big improvement but [lace that 6300 up against a K3S, FTDX5000 or even 3000 and the Flex doesn't do anything better except a big monitor display but that can easily be added for not much more invested. Only time will tell but Flex should get cracking.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on October 24, 2017, 07:15:13 PM
Lets hope Flex closes down and goes out of business!
Ten Tec is about gone and maybe Elecraft can fold as well, then we will get rigs on time.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on October 24, 2017, 08:13:22 PM
Yeah, to hell with the competitive marketplace.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on October 26, 2017, 12:46:44 PM
Well, if these small companies cant perform like big ones they should close up shop and collect unemployment.

I am sure we would have SDR radios and kits without Flex and Elecraft, maybe 5 years from now but we would have them on time.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on October 26, 2017, 05:38:42 PM
I don't wish any company to close shop and drift away but Flex has got to learn that unreal release dates do more harm than good to ham's who want there products, maybe try being honest and say early 2018 we will se product would be more realistic. As far as TenTec they were there own worst enemy with poor upper management calling the shots and the folks on there assembly lines are who I feel sorry for. Electraft has been ridding the big west coast surfer wave for a long time but there running out of beach cause the new SDR market has put a huge dent in there steam. Icom has brought real innovation for a down to earth price with there 7300 and maybe the next radio may be out possibly before Flex.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on October 26, 2017, 06:37:00 PM
well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

I think the cellphone/smartphone design companies were the ones who popularized this silly notion with their "pre-order" category requiring a down payment toward the new-but-not-yet-completed product.  What an amazing concept that works surprisingly well for them, because droves of people can't wait to get the newest model so they have been convinced to "pre-order".   So this "pre-order" reservation technique psychologically locks a potential customer in to the new product because of the promised delivery date which the design company knows is a blatant lie, but if the true delivery date were told, far fewer customers would likely be interested in putting down the reservation fee and would possibly shop elsewhere for a competing product.  So it's a gamble by the company to lie and risk losing fewer pre-orders when delays are announced, than they would have if the real (later) delivery date were admitted in the first place.

So, rule of thumb:  if a product is demonstrated and the vendor or manufacturer is announcing that they will take preorders, let that be a clear enough sign to you that the delivery date is probably fake.

And if you still want to pre-order, don't complain when the delivery date slips.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KS4JU on October 27, 2017, 08:40:56 AM
Actually, Flex has sold out their first production run of 6400M, 6600M, 6400, and 6600 radios. These radios were bought by customers who "reserved" one. Flex is still saying that they expect shipping for the M models will begin in November and the 6400 and 6600 around December. Of course these times could slip as with any preproduction product. New orders won't be delivered until after the first of the year. Flex has done a reasonably decent job keeping customers in the loop via email. The mainboards of the units have been produced and allegedly the radios are being assembled now.

Flex also redesigned the rather plain front panels of the 6400 and 6600 to include a large dimmable back lit blue Flex swoosh for some extra eye candy.

Mainboards and New Front Panel
https://imgur.com/a/TyN0j



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on October 30, 2017, 09:11:45 AM
well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

Have you ever participated in an engineering development organization attempting to deliver a complex product? If you have then you know that development engineering isn't like building a house, where the amount of time required to build one is well-known and varies little. You run into unexpected issues that take time to solve. This often pushes a schedule out by weeks or months. Coming up with a schedule for engineering projects is often more art than science.

Rather than attributing Flex's product delivery delays to lying, perhaps it's because, like all complex engineering projects, they're running into difficulties they didn't anticipate.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on October 30, 2017, 05:27:56 PM
well, you can understand why some companies are lying about their product release dates, so they can secure down payments from potential customers to reserve a spot in line for the newest products whenever they are actually available.

Have you ever participated in an engineering development organization attempting to deliver a complex product? If you have then you know that development engineering isn't like building a house, where the amount of time required to build one is well-known and varies little. You run into unexpected issues that take time to solve. This often pushes a schedule out by weeks or months. Coming up with a schedule for engineering projects is often more art than science.

Rather than attributing Flex's product delivery delays to lying, perhaps it's because, like all complex engineering projects, they're running into difficulties they didn't anticipate.

Yes,  I am an engineer at a commercial computer manufacturer.  Yes, I am aware that complex projects can not be estimated the same
way as ship building where you can weld this many or that many linear feet of steel plate per hour.

That said;   Flex kept telling people they would be shipping earlier.  They keep tossing out "fuzzy" dates and claiming the first batch
would be shipping by now.   Since they are not publicly traded, what would have been so difficult as simply saying;  There are some
last minute supplier and parts issues, and it will take us until approx Feb 2018 to ship.  

Instead, at all recent trade shows, they make it sound as though early buyers get theirs now (First week Nov 2017), but if you
order today, it is Feb or March 2018.    OK, excuse me;   Where are the first buyers who got their Flex units?  Are they on the
forums talking about them?   Posting reviews?

As an engineer, let me assure you that there is a large difference between "Complexity" and "Open Honesty".
But usually, it is the public Wallstreet firms that simply can't be open and honest (for various valid reasons).  
Flex, on the other hand, confuses me.  They simply won't be open about stuff.  It's ALWAYS "spin".

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on November 14, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
Now that Icom has released USA pricing of $4,000 for the IC-7610, a lot of people will
decide they can wait until the Flex 6400M ships, and people can then compare the
performance of the two with actual shipping samples.

Interesting threshold;  At $3,499, a lot more people would just jump in, but for $4,000,
a number more will hesitate and want some real world reports and comparisons.

A number of us were speculating that the extra $500 in retail price for the IC-7610 came
from the "problem" discovered at Dayton Hamvention;  that the traditional single set of
bandpass filters was not going to work well enough, requiring the late addition of the
expensive Digi-Sel relay switched-L pre-filters.  But that is, speculation.   In some way,
the final price shot past the intended earlier target of $3499.

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on November 14, 2017, 01:20:10 PM
One thing I wonder about the 6400"M" -- is Flex buying enough of the Dell tablet used by these rigs to meet the lifetime demand? The tablet market has short lifecycles and I wouldn't be surprised if Dell supersedes the particular model used in the 6400M in the not too distant future.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W9OY on November 15, 2017, 01:44:00 PM
I don't think the M radios use Dell tablets.  The Maestro uses that


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on November 15, 2017, 05:30:36 PM
I don't think the M radios use Dell tablets.  The Maestro uses that

So the M models drive the LCD display directly from one of the microprocessors in the rig?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on November 16, 2017, 07:55:19 AM
Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.
As far as Flex goes they have shipped there new amp but the ones I have heard on the air have some IMD issues, last night I heard a local fellow in NJ who runs a tight ship always and I mean always and another fellow who is local to me on LI both were 30 over S9, the fellow was using an Expert 1.3K. The fellow on LI was slide ruler style signal on the pan adapter with no spurs of any IMD, the felllow from NJ was about the same but the hash style IMD was there beyond the sidebands, BTW both were using Flex 6500 or 6700 radio's. I said to the fellow on NJ that he should have kept his Acom 2000A which he was always ruler flat clean on the display. Not trying to side track the thread but the only SS amp's I have seen that have never been IMD problems were the Acom 600, and a well run not over driven Expert jobs, the Ameritron 1300 series, the little Electrafts all seem to not be the cleanest as far as IMD products.
I don'y know but Flex may have issues as far as parts are concerned which just be the fly in the soup as far as delivery, that is always a big issue event months before production when there buy secures delivery dates there is always one that will not deliver there parts in the timely manner they originally predicted. This is were Icom being a much larger global company for communication equipment has more pull with there vendors and Flex who is a little company has not been around long enough to have that type of power over there supply chain.
The average ham doesn't really realize how difficult it is to bring a radio to this marketplace these day, they want something and they want it NOW nor six months from now so as of now Icoms radio is a little late from original predictions but it looks like Flex is going to be later maybe much later. Icom was smart cause they know that the ham's who can afford the $4k radio will buy this for themselves as a Xmas  gift to themselves so getting these radio's out before Xmas was a good idea plus there production line is set up not only to fill there existing orders but have enough for dealers to have some stock for sale, they have been around the block with this before like when they first introduced the IC7800 and only produced 150 on there first run thinking they would not sell them off right away but in less than a few weeks these 7800's were sold out and they had to scramble to get the parts for an over 300 back order list and that radio was price well over what the 7610 is at.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K0YQ on November 16, 2017, 08:06:36 AM
Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.


Sold!

Really wanna sell me?  Have 2 RX antenna inputs with a phasing device like the NCC-2 built in.  $3K.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6JH on November 16, 2017, 02:05:16 PM
Now that the R&D work and integration is done on the 7610 Icom if they really wanted to capture the market under the $4k range would come out with a 7410MKII for lets say the $2.5K price range. Have just one RX but have there bring back the dual watch feature that many did like about the 7600, color display with a size a little larger than the 7300 or the same size so it can be used in production of both radio's but a monitor output, one digi select filter instead of two plus maybe a second B vfo knob like most of the Yaesu offering have. This would be for many who DX and contest along with rag chewing a very good all around radio but maybe it would be more like $3K.


Sold!

Really wanna sell me?  Have 2 RX antenna inputs with a phasing device like the NCC-2 built in.  $3K.


How about a free software update to allow for phasing the two antennas? The hardware is already there, and this would make for a nice update ala the way they handled the 7600.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2RJ on November 16, 2017, 02:54:15 PM
The 6k series and Maestro PWBs are made at a contract manufacturer in Austin, close to Flex.

Chinese food ?  I've had some damned good food in Hong Kong and Beijing. I mean really good.


I’ve actually been to the facility. That is 100% correct.

The amps are made by Sky Sat aka 4O3A in Montenegro.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: VE3WGO on November 20, 2017, 06:39:23 PM
Now on Flex's Buy pages, they announced the 6400, 6400M, 6600, and 6600M availability as: "Shipment estimated in early 2018".    Does that mean the first shipments in 2018 are for the current crop of pre-orders already in, or is that the shipping date for a radio that is ordered now?

On the Buy page, the only things in stock are Maestro and the Radiosport headset.  The 6700 and 6500 are listed as "This item is not yet available for shipment".     Seems odd...  does Flex always build to order?

I suppose retail dealers may have stock, though.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K7JQ on November 20, 2017, 07:45:09 PM
Now on Flex's Buy pages, they announced the 6400, 6400M, 6600, and 6600M availability as: "Shipment estimated in early 2018".    Does that mean the first shipments in 2018 are for the current crop of pre-orders already in, or is that the shipping date for a radio that is ordered now?

On the Buy page, the only things in stock are Maestro and the Radiosport headset.  The 6700 and 6500 are listed as "This item is not yet available for shipment".     Seems odd...  does Flex always build to order?

I suppose retail dealers may have stock, though.

73, Ed VE3WGO

I wasn't aware that Flex products are also sold through other retail dealers. I believe you can only buy direct through their website.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on November 20, 2017, 11:01:21 PM
Now on Flex's Buy pages, they announced the 6400, 6400M, 6600, and 6600M availability as: "Shipment estimated in early 2018".    Does that mean the first shipments in 2018 are for the current crop of pre-orders already in, or is that the shipping date for a radio that is ordered now?

73, Ed VE3WGO

Yes.   While the Flex market/sales staff at all the USA ham shows this year are trying to spin it like the pre-orders get theirs now, and
new orders are in a "second production run" in February 2018, the reality is that they simply have not ramped production yet and have not
yet gotten them out the door.  Else, you would be reading end-user-reviews this week. 
I have spoken to employees, and the first shipments start slowly in late December, with better volumes claimed to be ramping into February. 
I am interested in the 6600 model, with a separate Maestro.   The built in "M" version with attached knobs are stupid, because nothing
that fat/tall/large is going to fit in your operating position under a monitor, or in the typically 6 to 8 inch high shelf units on your table.
The 6600 belongs under the desk or off to the side, and the Maestro belongs wherever I choose to carry it on the property :-)
Just my usage-case for me.

Cheers


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on November 21, 2017, 06:46:37 AM
Yes.   While the Flex market/sales staff at all the USA ham shows this year are trying to spin it like the pre-orders get theirs now, and new orders are in a "second production run" in February 2018, the reality is that they simply have not ramped production yet and have not yet gotten them out the door. 

So what else is new? Flexradio has not met a promise deadline in their existence. They do not meet software promise deadlines nor radio production promise deadlines. They only lie (and it IS lying) because they need to keep the Reservation Money Flow ($$$$$) coming in, so they can actually afford to produce the radios.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on November 21, 2017, 08:27:11 AM
Yes.   While the Flex market/sales staff at all the USA ham shows this year are trying to spin it like the pre-orders get theirs now, and new orders are in a "second production run" in February 2018, the reality is that they simply have not ramped production yet and have not yet gotten them out the door. 

So what else is new? Flexradio has not met a promise deadline in their existence. They do not meet software promise deadlines nor radio production promise deadlines. They only lie (and it IS lying) because they need to keep the Reservation Money Flow ($$$$$) coming in, so they can actually afford to produce the radios.

Stan K9IUQ


I have been in this hobby for a long time and I have seen dozens of American amateur radio manufacturers go under because of competition in the market.  If you hams that you plan to deliver product X on Y date, then you had better be close. 

For a while Flex had the SDR nich cornered and people were willing to wait but now there is competition, and not just from Icom either.  The next two years will be interesting to see what direction the amateur radio market takes and who will deliver the goods.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KF7DS on November 21, 2017, 09:47:05 PM
Yes.   While the Flex market/sales staff at all the USA ham shows this year are trying to spin it like the pre-orders get theirs now, and new orders are in a "second production run" in February 2018, the reality is that they simply have not ramped production yet and have not yet gotten them out the door. 

So what else is new? Flexradio has not met a promise deadline in their existence. They do not meet software promise deadlines nor radio production promise deadlines. They only lie (and it IS lying) because they need to keep the Reservation Money Flow ($$$$$) coming in, so they can actually afford to produce the radios.

Stan K9IUQ

The inability to meet promised deadlines is another reason I sold my 6300-promised features never materialized in the year I owned it.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on November 22, 2017, 10:00:07 AM
Forget Flex... I wonder how the 7610 compares to the Elecraft K3S? I think the 7610 is more of a competitor of the K3S than it is the Flex.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N2DTS on November 22, 2017, 12:09:38 PM
The Icom is cheaper is it not?


Forget Flex... I wonder how the 7610 compares to the Elecraft K3S? I think the 7610 is more of a competitor of the K3S than it is the Flex.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on November 22, 2017, 12:17:14 PM
The Icom is cheaper is it not?


Forget Flex... I wonder how the 7610 compares to the Elecraft K3S? I think the 7610 is more of a competitor of the K3S than it is the Flex.

Yes, for comparable configurations, but is it as capable as a K3S? That's the real question. Cheaper is not better if it doesn't perform as well.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on November 22, 2017, 05:43:58 PM
[but is it as capable as a K3S? That's the real question. Cheaper is not better if it doesn't perform as well.

No it is not the question for many hams. Few hams need what the K3S provides - high performance and poor ergonomics. IMO Icom products provide acceptable performance and excellent ergonomics. More important for many hams is - - Icom provides Value for the dollar or Bang for the Buck.

You could never say that about any Elecraft product. Elecraft products are excellent but priced as high as possible with few meaningful sales. Many hams are willing to pay high prices for top performance. Other hams want Bang for the Buck. Cheaper can be better especially since the everyday Joe Ham would not (can not) appreciate a radio like an Elecraft.

Stan K9IUQ 


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on November 22, 2017, 06:31:14 PM
[but is it as capable as a K3S? That's the real question. Cheaper is not better if it doesn't perform as well.

No it is not the question for many hams. Few hams need what the K3S provides - high performance and poor ergonomics. IMO Icom products provide acceptable performance and excellent ergonomics. More important for many hams is - - Icom provides Value for the dollar or Bang for the Buck.

But I'm not just any ham because I do value high performance and not rock bottom price. I'll pay more to get quality and performance.

Ergonomics are subjective anyway. I happen to think the ergonomics of the K3S are very nice and, based on playing with an IC-7300 for a few hours, I think Icom ergonomics aren't so great.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KX2T on November 28, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
I ask you Elecraft users one thing and that is why a multi multi winning station like K3LR uses Icom 7851's over any other radio and this may change when the 7610 gets to be shipped soon, if the K3S was that much better why does that station use Icom at a cost of more than double a fully loaded K3S with all the trimmings. Fact is those guys on the west coast have be ridding that wave and are starting to lose steam, the K3 syndrome is over, ugliest radio ever, poor RX audio, a menu system which has to be the worst ever and except for giving them out to every tom dick and harry DX peditions they are losing ground plus the kit thing doesn't save that much and your only doing mechanical assembly anyway so the chest beating I built it is way overrated it not even close to the old Heathkits cause like myself and many who have been in this hobby I am sure we have all built at least one of there transceivers and linear amps.
Icom has clearly place the 7610 out before Flex, they dont make promises they cant keep, yes they shocked everyone at Dayton this year but there radio's are still vaporware. Its also funny that the Icom 7300 has out sold ANY radio manufactured in a little over two years time world wide, yes 20,000 of one model number and to complement that Elecraft has made comparisons on there site with the K3S at a bones basic version at $3k compared to a radio selling for a little over $1K, yes the K3s number in a lab test are better but not by enough to warrant the investment.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: NI8R on November 28, 2017, 06:23:46 PM
I ask you Elecraft users one thing and that is why a multi multi winning station like K3LR uses Icom 7851's over any other radio

I have owned both, i can tell you why he uses the 7851. I love my 7851.

But, if it was down to rig or antenna, and i was short on money. i would have a room full of k3s with huge towers and great antennas. Not fancy icom 7851 radio's.

K3lr is not short on cash, so i am going to guess he gets what he wants. Like flex, i am sure icom subsidized his purchase to put that name all through the shack for the name recognition..

The blazing smooth audio, dsp, filtering, dynamic range, natural placement of knobs and simple menu adjustments make the rig unbeatable.

With a mixer board and a great set of speakers, you can make do with the k3s, the 7851 is not 5k better.

Greg ni8r


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on November 29, 2017, 03:46:11 PM
This thread title is wrong.  The proper comparison, apples to apples for
features and dual simultaneous receive on two different antennas, is
between a Flex 6600 and an Icom 7610.  NOT a Flex 6400.

The Flex 6400 series, while having two digital receivers, only has one "front end with antenna switch".
This means that it can not do diversity receive, and it can not have one VFO on antenna 1 and another
VFO on antenna jack 2.   Both have to use ONE of the antenna jacks at the same time.

Now;  If you compare the Flex 6600 series and the Icom 7610;  the features match;
Both machines have dual front ends completely, right up to the antenna switching.
You can have one receiver on antenna jack 1 and the other receiver on antenna jack 2, and they both
can be on any band, including the same band for comparing two antenna's on the same frequency.

So if this thread is to make any sense, and have any value, the title should be changed to
compare the Flex 6600 and the Icom 7610.

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N3HEE on November 30, 2017, 06:31:24 AM
The big advantage of the 6600 is full duplex operation.  It also has built in bandpass filtering.  Think SO2R in a box.  This capability will save quite a bit of $$$ for the SO2R operator.  Also nice having 4 slice receivers and a higher resolution monitor output.  So I will wait until Flex starts delivering radios and see how they perform.  No rush to jump on anything just yet. 


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KS4JU on November 30, 2017, 06:57:52 AM
Some Gigaparts customers are saying that their 7610 orders have shipped and should be in their hands next week.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on November 30, 2017, 08:31:36 AM
The big advantage of the 6600 is full duplex operation.  It also has built in bandpass filtering.  Think SO2R in a box.  This capability will save quite a bit of $$$ for the SO2R operator.  Also nice having 4 slice receivers and a higher resolution monitor output.  So I will wait until Flex starts delivering radios and see how they perform.  No rush to jump on anything just yet. 

Sure, so if Flex ever starts selling the 6600M then that just might be a good comparison.  Especially since the 6600M will cost considerably more than the Icom.  Even better, why compare them at all?  They cater to two very different types of amateur hobbyist.   Just because Flex is adding a Maestro front panel to the 6400 and 6600, they will still be subject to all of the Flex twiddle and fiddle with software and applications while the Icoms just work as advertised right out of the box.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 01, 2017, 01:49:12 PM
Just because Flex is adding a Maestro front panel to the 6400 and 6600, they will still be subject to all of the Flex twiddle and fiddle with software and applications while the Icoms just work as advertised right out of the box.

Oh, right--the twiddle and fiddle. When I got my 6500 it took all of three minutes to install SmartSDR and get the rig on the air. I was making my first JT65 contact literally ten minutes after plugging the 6500 in.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 01, 2017, 04:43:58 PM
Oh, right--the twiddle and fiddle. When I got my 6500 it took all of three minutes to install SmartSDR and get the rig on the air. I was making my first JT65 contact literally ten minutes after plugging the 6500 in.

Jerry, you sure have changed your tune. I can remember when you were an honest Flex Owner. Seems like you bashed Flexradio a time or two right after you dumped a Flexradio 5K and your wife got you a Yaesu 5K for Christmas.  ;)

Twiddle and Fiddle and WAIT, WAIT WAIT for Flexradio to "finally" deliver a software promise.  :D :D :D

I wanta Know why ANYONE would buy a Flexradio and then do JT-65 and brag about it on a public forum?  You can do JT-65 with ANY radio. ANY RADIO.  You chase DX on FT-8 too?? OMG

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on December 01, 2017, 09:20:02 PM
Oh, right--the twiddle and fiddle. When I got my 6500 it took all of three minutes to install SmartSDR and get the rig on the air. I was making my first JT65 contact literally ten minutes after plugging the 6500 in.

Jerry, you sure have changed your tune. I can remember when you were an honest Flex Owner. Seems like you bashed Flexradio a time or two right after you dumped a Flexradio 5K and your wife got you a Yaesu 5K for Christmas.  ;)

Twiddle and Fiddle and WAIT, WAIT WAIT for Flexradio to "finally" deliver a software promise.  :D :D :D

I wanta Know why ANYONE would buy a Flexradio and then do JT-65 and brag about it on a public forum?  You can do JT-65 with ANY radio. ANY RADIO.  You chase DX on FT-8 too?? OMG

Stan K9IUQ

Hey Stan:

I get that you think he changed his tune, but the part about JT-65 on a Flex?
I don't get what you saying.  Both Analog SuperHet radios and SDR Radios can do the same modes;
AM/SSB/CW/Digital/FSK-RTTY, etc.   So why does it matter that he is doing JT-65?
I have over 4,000 JT/FT contacts on both a Yaesu FT-DX3000 SuperHet Analog and a Icom 7300 SDR.
They both work great.

Cheers


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 02, 2017, 01:18:22 AM
I don't get what you saying.  Both Analog SuperHet radios and SDR Radios can do the same modes;
Cheers

You don't need a high dollar Flex SDR to work the JT/FT modes. Any radio made in the last 30 years will work those modes. The worst radios made will easily do JT/FT. The worst antennas will do JT/FT.  No skill needed either. Just patience..  ;) :D :D

And yes I have worked those modes. It is about as exciting as working Dx on Brandmeister DMR, but on DMR the conversations can be interesting.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: AC7CW on December 02, 2017, 09:04:13 AM
Oh, right--the twiddle and fiddle. When I got my 6500 it took all of three minutes to install SmartSDR and get the rig on the air. I was making my first JT65 contact literally ten minutes after plugging the 6500 in.

Jerry, you sure have changed your tune. I can remember when you were an honest Flex Owner. Seems like you bashed Flexradio a time or two right after you dumped a Flexradio 5K and your wife got you a Yaesu 5K for Christmas.  ;)

Twiddle and Fiddle and WAIT, WAIT WAIT for Flexradio to "finally" deliver a software promise.  :D :D :D

I wanta Know why ANYONE would buy a Flexradio and then do JT-65 and brag about it on a public forum?  You can do JT-65 with ANY radio. ANY RADIO.  You chase DX on FT-8 too?? OMG

Stan K9IUQ

I wonder who will be the first to work FT8 with a homebrewed vacuum tube regen rig?  Now THAT  is a radio that doesn't require any waiting for software updates! Should be your first rig choice, no?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 02, 2017, 01:55:56 PM
I wonder who will be the first to work FT8 with a homebrewed vacuum tube regen rig?  Now THAT  is a radio that doesn't require any waiting for software updates! Should be your first rig choice, no?

Check out pictures of my Winter (  ;) ) radios on QRZ.com under my call.....

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 02, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
Oh, right--the twiddle and fiddle. When I got my 6500 it took all of three minutes to install SmartSDR and get the rig on the air. I was making my first JT65 contact literally ten minutes after plugging the 6500 in.

Jerry, you sure have changed your tune. I can remember when you were an honest Flex Owner. Seems like you bashed Flexradio a time or two right after you dumped a Flexradio 5K and your wife got you a Yaesu 5K for Christmas.  ;)

Twiddle and Fiddle and WAIT, WAIT WAIT for Flexradio to "finally" deliver a software promise.  :D :D :D

I wanta Know why ANYONE would buy a Flexradio and then do JT-65 and brag about it on a public forum?  You can do JT-65 with ANY radio. ANY RADIO.  You chase DX on FT-8 too?? OMG

Stan,  I still bash Flex when it's warranted. They still do dumb things they deserve to be bashed for, but they occasionally do things right and that's worth acknowledging.

I've had a Flex-6500 now for 3-1/2 years and it's never given me any trouble and although Flex still comes out with software updates, there hasn't been anything new for a really long time that I've been waiting for. The rig does everything I need it to do, and CW is bulletproof on a 6000 series, unlike the 5000A,,,

I didn't buy a Flex-6000 just to operate JT65 or any of the other digital modes, but it does work well on those modes and doesn't require sound cards or cabling between the rig and computer. Plus I can connect to the rig over Ethernet from a computer in any room in the house (I have at least seven computers scattered around here) and operate digital modes. Yes, I do chase DX on FT8. Why not? Lots of DX to be had right now on that mode. I've even been known to use my legal limit amp on FT8 when I need to.  ;)


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6UJ on December 02, 2017, 07:43:52 PM
Working JT8 with a Flex 6000, now that's quite an accomplishment.   :D

Bob
K6UJ
   



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 02, 2017, 10:09:25 PM
Working JT8 with a Flex 6000, now that's quite an accomplishment.   :D

How so? It's actually quite trivial. Anyone with more than two brain cells can set up wsjt-x with a Flex 6000 in about five minutes and make contacts with FT8/JT65.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N0YXB on December 03, 2017, 08:19:42 AM
Now that we've completed the requisite Flex bashing, I wonder how the 6400M compares to the 7610?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on December 03, 2017, 08:31:15 AM
Now that we've completed the requisite Flex bashing, I wonder how the 6400M compares to the 7610?

That's easy, the 7610 just blows the doors off of the 6400M.  Want proof? Just set them down beside one another on a bench and try them out.  Oh, that's right, you cant because there is no 6400M.  Oh well.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 03, 2017, 08:56:45 AM
Now that we've completed the requisite Flex bashing, I wonder how the 6400M compares to the 7610?

That's easy, the 7610 just blows the doors off of the 6400M.  Want proof? Just set them down beside one another on a bench and try them out.  Oh, that's right, you cant because there is no 6400M.  Oh well.

Well, we've had a sample size of one 7610 on this forum so far and it's already had to be sent back to Icom for service. Not a good track record so far...


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: KA4DPO on December 03, 2017, 01:45:56 PM
Now that we've completed the requisite Flex bashing, I wonder how the 6400M compares to the 7610?

That's easy, the 7610 just blows the doors off of the 6400M.  Want proof? Just set them down beside one another on a bench and try them out.  Oh, that's right, you cant because there is no 6400M.  Oh well.

Well, we've had a sample size of one 7610 on this forum so far and it's already had to be sent back to Icom for service. Not a good track record so far...

What's the sample size for the 6400M?  The 7610's are being delivered in the US now.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 03, 2017, 01:58:14 PM

What's the sample size for the 6400M? 

It is impossible to sample Promises.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 03, 2017, 02:09:25 PM
It is impossible to sample Promises.

Stan,

How is the 7610 any different from the 6400M? Icom announced it, what, 18 months ago and are just now starting to ship them in North America?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 03, 2017, 04:03:07 PM
It is impossible to sample Promises.

Stan,

How is the 7610 any different from the 6400M? Icom announced it, what, 18 months ago and are just now starting to ship them in North America?

The differences are many. Icom takes no Reservation $$$$, their future radios do not need to be financed by customer's  Reservation Dollars. Flexradio has to wait on $$$$ to be raised by customers before they will/can produce product.

Unlike countless past Flexradio products, the 7610 is a finished ready to use radio with all basic functions operational. Icom does not use customers as guinea pigs to test radios.

BEST of all, Icom does not promote a cult around their radios , and does not require all users to speak the company line to get support for their radios.  ;)  Jerry, You are a good example. I once respected your opinions but you have your head too far up Flexradio. Like many other Flexradio Lovers you are getting beyond being believable. another couple of years and you will be another Lee or Ria....... As my MaMa  told me: You lie with Dogs and you will get Fleas...


By purchasing an Icom I'd be assuring myself of the following:

1. It will probably work for decades.

2. If Icom went out of business it would be more likely the radio would retain value.

3. No threat of obsolete software making the radio a doorstop.

4. No "pay to play" software updates.


Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6UJ on December 03, 2017, 05:03:55 PM
Working JT8 with a Flex 6000, now that's quite an accomplishment.   :D

How so? It's actually quite trivial. Anyone with more than two brain cells can set up wsjt-x with a Flex 6000 in about five minutes and make contacts with FT8/JT65.


The comment went right over your head.  The point is you don't need anywhere near as sophisticated of a radio as a Flex to work JT8.  That is the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements.   Your bragging about using a Flex 6000 is humorous.   :D :D

Bob
K6UJ



Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 03, 2017, 05:28:04 PM
Working JT8 with a Flex 6000, now that's quite an accomplishment.   :D

How so? It's actually quite trivial. Anyone with more than two brain cells can set up wsjt-x with a Flex 6000 in about five minutes and make contacts with FT8/JT65.


The comment went right over your head.  The point is you don't need anywhere near as sophisticated of a radio as a Flex to work JT8.  That is the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements.   Your bragging about using a Flex 6000 is humorous.   :D :D

And you're making zero sense, as usual. Gee, I didn't know there was a limit on how sophisticated a radio could be before you get laughed at by the likes of people like you for using it on FT8. I bet you really get a big laugh out of people using Icom 7851's, Kenwood TS990's, and Yaesu FTdx9000's on FT8.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 04:28:51 AM

The comment went right over your head.  The point is you don't need anywhere near as sophisticated of a radio as a Flex to work JT8.  That is the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements.   Your bragging about using a Flex 6000 is humorous.   :D :D

Bob
K6UJ


I spelled it out earlier for Jerry but he has the Flexradio Blinders and only reads Flexradio Goodness, he probably has me on Ignore...

You don't need a high dollar Flex SDR to work the JT/FT modes. Any radio made in the last 30 years will work those modes. The worst radios made will easily do JT/FT. The worst antennas will do JT/FT.  No skill needed either. Just patience..  ;) :D :D

Gee, I didn't know there was a limit on how sophisticated a radio could be before you get laughed at by the likes of people like you for using it on FT8.

Jerry, It IS Laughable that you would admit to using Legal Limit on FT-8. On second thought, it is NOT laughable, it is sad...   VERY SAD.

Yes, I do chase DX on FT8. Why not? Lots of DX to be had right now on that mode. I've even been known to use my legal limit amp on FT8 when I need to.  ;)

Re-read K6UJ's comments about  "the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements"
You need/want/desire DX so badly that you will run 1500 watts on FT-8?
What has happened to the Jerry I knew years ago???

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K6UJ on December 04, 2017, 07:18:25 AM
Stan,

I noticed the Hammarlund HQ-150 receiver on your QRZ.com webpage.  Brought back fond memories.  I had a HQ-150 when I was a novice.  Paid for with money I made from my paper route and mowing lawns.   :D
You have a great station !  I have an Elecraft K3S and have a Flex 6400 on order. Get ready for dumb questions when I am setting up the 6400  ;D

Bob
K6UJ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 04, 2017, 08:58:46 AM
I spelled it out earlier for Jerry but he has the Flexradio Blinders and only reads Flexradio Goodness, he probably has me on Ignore...

No, I don't have you on ignore, Stan.

Quote
Jerry, It IS Laughable that you would admit to using Legal Limit on FT-8. On second thought, it is NOT laughable, it is sad...   VERY SAD.

Why is that laughable? FT8 is a weak signal mode, not a QRP mode (you know the difference, right?). I use whatever power is necessary to make a contact when it's a needed DX entity. The rest of the time I typically use 15-25 watts.

Quote
Re-read K6UJ's comments about  "the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements"
You need/want/desire DX so badly that you will run 1500 watts on FT-8?

How is it any more minimal than the requirements for CW, SSB, or any other mode? All it is is audio tones fed into an SSB transmitter, so it has exactly the same radio requirements as PSK31, Olivia, AFSK RTTY, FreeDV, and just about every digital mode out there.

Quote
What has happened to the Jerry I knew years ago???

Nothing. I still bash Flex when they deserve it. But you still seem to be bitter and holding a grudge against Flex from your Flex-5000 experience years ago. You're like a man obsessed and unable to let it go and move on--I can't think of any other reason why you'd continue to frequent this forum.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 09:34:14 AM
But you still seem to be bitter and holding a grudge against Flex from your Flex-5000 experience years ago. You're like a man obsessed and unable to let it go and move on--I can't think of any other reason why you'd continue to frequent this forum.

The last time I looked this forum said Software Defined Radio, NOT FLEXRADIO FORUM.
I am interested in SDR and will continue to express my opinions.

Your correct Jerry I am obsessed with telling the truth and will continue to expose alternative truths. Besides I like to talk to all my Flexradio buddies here.   ;) :D :D :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 09:40:35 AM
Stan,

I noticed the Hammarlund HQ-150 receiver on your QRZ.com webpage.  Brought back fond memories.  I had a HQ-150 when I was a novice.  Paid for with money I made from my paper route and mowing lawns.   :D
You have a great station !  I have an Elecraft K3S and have a Flex 6400 on order. Get ready for dumb questions when I am setting up the 6400  ;D

Bob
K6UJ

I started a newspaper route when I was 12 years old. When I got my novice license at 14yr old I almost had enough to buy my Eico 720 and HQ-100, both brand new. The Eico was a kit. MaMa loaned me some $$ as I was a little short. The HQ-100 was $200 and the Eico was $79.95. A lot of $$ back then. I could only afford to buy 2 crystals for the Eico.  :D

Stan K9IUQ




Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on December 04, 2017, 10:31:28 AM

Re-read K6UJ's comments about  "the beauty of JT8, minimal radio requirements"
You need/want/desire DX so badly that you will run 1500 watts on FT-8?
What has happened to the Jerry I knew years ago???

Stan K9IUQ

Sadly, on any given day or evening, I am finding more and more people who are clearly running
massive power on FT-8, while the rest of the people are running avg levels of 20 to 50 watts.
There are always one or two signal that are slamming my waterfall so completely red, that I end
up needing to steer a sharp-walled narrow notch filter across the waterfall to cut them, so that I
can actually start receiving the other signals.   Then, of course, they move, I loose everything else
do to them obliterating the other signals, and have to spend time re-tuning the notch filter again.
FYI, I rarely saw this in over 1.5 years of using JT-65.   But now, on FT-8, it is becoming epidemic.

Some one will next have to add additional software that can detect a signal exceeding s9+20,
and use CAT control to automatically steer a notch filter.   But then again, it would be easier
if there were not so many people suddenly running heavy power.  This is a recent problem.
I never really saw it on JT-65.

But then, we have now drifted far off topic of this thread.
The IC-7610's are starting to arrive for USA users.  Should have some good reviews shortly.
I am very interested in seeing when Flex ships the 6600 in volume, and if any of those users
post some detailed reviews.  For some reason, it always seems harder to find Flex reviews
than Icom reviews.   Time will tell.

Happy Holidays.

Neal


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 04, 2017, 11:14:13 AM
Sadly, on any given day or evening, I am finding more and more people who are clearly running
massive power on FT-8, while the rest of the people are running avg levels of 20 to 50 watts.
There are always one or two signal that are slamming my waterfall so completely red, that I end
up needing to steer a sharp-walled narrow notch filter across the waterfall to cut them, so that I
can actually start receiving the other signals.

The difference between 50 watts and 1500 watts is only 14.8 dB. Propagation differences can easily result in 30-40 dB changes. Don't be so sure those signals that are "slamming your waterfall" are due to high power, because they very well might not be. I worked a guy on JT65 a while ago who had a massive signal. I thought he was running big power, but his final exchange was "73 5 watts/Dpl".

Don't complain when you're running with a 3 kHz receiver bandwidth for a mode that occupies 50 Hz. That would be the equivalent of using a 162 kHz IF filter on phone and complaining that people were slamming your IF.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: N6YFM on December 04, 2017, 02:06:53 PM
Sadly, on any given day or evening, I am finding more and more people who are clearly running
massive power on FT-8, while the rest of the people are running avg levels of 20 to 50 watts.
There are always one or two signal that are slamming my waterfall so completely red, that I end
up needing to steer a sharp-walled narrow notch filter across the waterfall to cut them, so that I
can actually start receiving the other signals.

The difference between 50 watts and 1500 watts is only 14.8 dB. Propagation differences can easily result in 30-40 dB changes. Don't be so sure those signals that are "slamming your waterfall" are due to high power, because they very well might not be. I worked a guy on JT65 a while ago who had a massive signal. I thought he was running big power, but his final exchange was "73 5 watts/Dpl".

Don't complain when you're running with a 3 kHz receiver bandwidth for a mode that occupies 50 Hz. That would be the equivalent of using a 162 kHz IF filter on phone and complaining that people were slamming your IF.


That is completely fair.
But I still wonder why I did not see the same amount of HUGE/LOUD signals on JT-65 as I do on FT-8?

Cheers


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 04:01:55 PM
I worked a guy on JT65 a while ago who had a massive signal. I thought he was running big power, but his final exchange was "73 5 watts/Dpl".

I still wonder why I did not see the same amount of HUGE/LOUD signals on JT-65 as I do on FT-8?

Hams lie, just like our leader(s). Jerry was honest and admitted to using legal limit on FT-8 mode. That is nothing to brag about. It shows his inner personality which is to win at all costs. Just like our leader(s).....

IMO legal limit has NO place on the JT/FT bands. Only weak hams with no conscience (and probably weak DX skills) would consider or use 1500 watts on FT-8. Hams that have NO consideration for his fellow hams.

What is next for hams that think like W6UV? Getting LOTW from Echolink and DMR Brandmeister Q's?  :(  :(

You are WRONG on this issue Jerry and you know it. Stop the Spin, it makes you look bad. Ponder this for a moment. What happens if EVERYONE with a legal limit (yes I have 1500+ watts available) Amp gets on FT-8???

If you do it why not everybody do it?

Stan K9IUQ







Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 04, 2017, 05:26:31 PM
You are WRONG on this issue Jerry and you know it. Stop the Spin, it makes you look bad. Ponder this for a moment. What happens if EVERYONE with a legal limit (yes I have 1500+ watts available) Amp gets on FT-8???

Give it up, Stan, you're starting to sound like a tired old man with nothing better to do than criticize others.


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 05:40:35 PM
Give it up, Stan, you're starting to sound like a tired old man with nothing better to do than criticize others.

You got it half right Jerry I am an old man, tired of putting up with selfish hams who run 1500 watts on the FT-8 Bands.
Tired of hams who only think of themselves. The bands are getting full of people like you Jerry. It saddens me.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 05, 2017, 06:16:29 AM
Give it up, Stan, you're starting to sound like a tired old man with nothing better to do than criticize others.

You got it half right Jerry I am an old man, tired of putting up with selfish hams who run 1500 watts on the FT-8 Bands.
Tired of hams who only think of themselves. The bands are getting full of people like you Jerry. It saddens me.

Ah, gee, Stan, should I take down my towers and big yagis and only use a simple wire on FT8? Is that unfair, too, to the guys with 25 watts to a low dipole?


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: K9IUQ on December 05, 2017, 07:00:06 AM
Ah, gee, Stan, should I take down my towers and big yagis and only use a simple wire on FT8? Is that unfair, too, to the guys with 25 watts to a low dipole?

So you got a big yagi and tower on a hill, run FT-8 and still feel the need to run 1500 watts and stomp on all those antenna challenged hams living in HOA environments trying to do their best with 25 watts and poor antennas. Have at it Jerry, it ain't illegal.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: Flex 6400M vs. Icom 7610 ?
Post by: W6UV on December 05, 2017, 09:37:51 AM
So you got a big yagi and tower on a hill, run FT-8 and still feel the need to run 1500 watts

Yes, on rare occasions I do.