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eHam Forums => Software Defined Radio => Topic started by: WX0V on November 14, 2017, 12:45:42 PM



Title: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 14, 2017, 12:45:42 PM
Earlier today I received an email from DX Engineering indicating that the Icom IC-7610 will be selling for $4,000.

Apparently other Ham Radio sellers have a similar price.

The email also indicated a "ship date" for my pre-order (done back in December of 2016) of 11/20/17; but I am unsure if that's just a computer-generated ETA, or if it really will ship next Monday.  I want the radio...my wallet isn't so sure, so I can wait.  :-)

That's all I have.

73!

Scott - WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 14, 2017, 01:34:52 PM
Wow. That's almost exactly 3x the price of the 7300. Is the 7610 three times better than the 7300? You be the judge of that. In my opinion, it isn't. I'll pass.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N6YFM on November 14, 2017, 01:35:35 PM
After the first 2 hours of order cancellations, the USA price is already re-listed on vendor sites at $3,899.
They are testing their initial greed factor and adjusting quickly.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 14, 2017, 02:03:48 PM
That's great, the price is almost two thousand less than the FT-5000D was when it hit the street and the Icom is a much better rig than the Yaesu.  It's also priced in the same exact ballpark as the Flex radio 6600M at $5K.  I don't see the price of the Icom as an issue, in fact it looks like a bargain to me since it does quite a bit more than the 7300, it has a very expanded set of features so the two IC-7300 argument is actually quite stupid.

The Icom rig looks like a really nice radio, I plan to find out real soon.  :D

Interesting how all of the Flexers just have to try and crap on it as early as possible. Losers..... ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KENNETH on November 14, 2017, 04:15:32 PM
MTC Radio is $3899 saying early December.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N5PG on November 14, 2017, 04:51:03 PM
That's great, the price is almost two thousand less than the FT-5000D was when it hit the street and the Icom is a much better rig than the Yaesu.  

How do you know that so quickly ?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KE2TR on November 14, 2017, 05:55:35 PM
The FTDX5000 for its time was a radio that bested many radio's at that time in the RX section and gave you a 200W out radio in class AB  plus 75w out in class A with excellent 3rd order IMD, its also a prove radio for contesters and DXers alike. The 7610 has not been proven except that its a step up from the 7300, has no class A output just the standard 100W out class ab, it does have two rx sections and a very nice large display/fish finder but to be honest way too many hams buy a radio cause of the fish finder over how the RX section really performs.
Some dealers have deeper discounts than DX does on there radio's and its very common that there price is a little more , also if they include shipping at the $4k price that may be the differences right there. I will say that the final price that Icom has settled on is way higher than expected, many were looking at the radio to come out in the low $3K mark but for that kind of money it better have the same digi select as the 7800 series plus band pass filters with pre amp stages from that series as well. My thoughts are if the numbers Icom is claiming on there pre specification pages are close to there 7851 that this may be the way they could do this  and using from a proven design is already taking care of the R&D already paid for. Time will tell but I think we are all a little surprised and I dont think it will be my next radio.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N3AWS on November 14, 2017, 06:07:45 PM
I would expect:
1. IC-7600 close outs will be hot sellers
2.  IC-7300 sells will see a mini surge by buyers not quite ready to spring for an IC-7610
3.  A few will jump ship to the lower price Flex 6000 models
4.  IC-7610's will sell better than the IC-7600 but not as well as the Icom 756 PRO OIL


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK1AZ on November 14, 2017, 07:49:20 PM
Suddenly feeling that large hit my Credit Card is taking in AUS is not that bad in comparison :) , any way I found this PDF http://www.icom-australia.com/products/amateur/ic-7610/Amateur_IC-7610_Technical_Report.pdf that Icom spends quite a bit of effort comparing to the 7851 and using flagship wording.
US Pricing
7851 - $13,499
7610 - $3999

I'll bet that the 7610 is at least better than 30% of a 7851........ not saying the 7851 is good value by the way and a long long way out of my reach. :)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 14, 2017, 08:20:19 PM
The FTDX5000 for its time was a radio that bested many radio's at that time in the RX section and gave you a 200W out radio in class AB  plus 75w out in class A with excellent 3rd order IMD, its also a prove radio for contesters and DXers alike. The 7610 has not been proven except that its a step up from the 7300, has no class A output just the standard 100W out class ab, it does have two rx sections and a very nice large display/fish finder but to be honest way too many hams buy a radio cause of the fish finder over how the RX section really performs.
Some dealers have deeper discounts than DX does on there radio's and its very common that there price is a little more , also if they include shipping at the $4k price that may be the differences right there. I will say that the final price that Icom has settled on is way higher than expected, many were looking at the radio to come out in the low $3K mark but for that kind of money it better have the same digi select as the 7800 series plus band pass filters with pre amp stages from that series as well. My thoughts are if the numbers Icom is claiming on there pre specification pages are close to there 7851 that this may be the way they could do this  and using from a proven design is already taking care of the R&D already paid for. Time will tell but I think we are all a little surprised and I dont think it will be my next radio.

Well the IC-7610 bests a lot of current radios and for a lot less than the FTDX-5000D, a lot less.  It has features the 5000 doesn't have and is more modern in every way.  The price is not higher than I expected nor is it out of line with a mid level rig, I paid $3800 and change for my IC-7600 when it was new and I don't recall this kind of nonsense over the price.

I suppose I don't really care what your next radio is going to be, I plan to buy the IC-7610 because I want a radio, I already have a computer and a spectrum analyzer.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 14, 2017, 08:23:06 PM
What I find interesting, from a marketing perspective, is the IC-7610 is set to replace the (currently) $2,000 IC-7600.  At $4,000 (or $3,900), that is twice the price of the radio it's replacing (and it is clearly being marketed as a direct replacement; hence, no new series number).

Has this ever happened before?--where a replacement is double the price of the existing model?

So is Icom then ditching the very popular $3,000 radio market?  Granted, the price WILL drop; you often pay a premium to be the first in the door, but even then a drop might be, what, $200 or $300?  It's still well above the $3K mark, that Ham Radio buyers are so accustomed to.  

Granted, this radio is a nice step above the IC-7600; SDR, 2 receivers, DiGi Sel, etc.  However, is it truly worth twice the price?  Will that $4,000 tag scare away the pre-order people like me?  Or do they change their orders to the IC-7600 for half the price like N3AWS mentioned?  

I currently have a 10 year old 756 PROIII.  If the email I got today said the IC-7610 is $3,499 and is shipping on Monday, I'd be pretty excited (I pre-ordered it in December of last year).  Instead, it's $4,000...$500 more than Icom's own rep said it would be on a youtube video from Xenia (linked here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAhllEAUnk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAhllEAUnk) -- go the 1:40 mark)...now I am questioning this...I wonder how many others feel like I do?

I would love to be a fly on the wall at Icom's HQ for their first quarter sales recap meeting in 2018...it will be interesting to see if the market accepts a $4K radio in a $3K radio world...maybe...maybe not?

We'll see...

73 de WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 03:18:01 AM
What I find interesting, from a marketing perspective, is the IC-7610 is set to replace the (currently) $2,000 IC-7600.  At $4,000 (or $3,900), that is twice the price of the radio it's replacing (and it is clearly being marketed as a direct replacement; hence, no new series number).
73 de WX0V

What everyone here seems to forget is that the Icom 7600 was $4000 list price at it's inception, around $3800 street price. Over the years like every ham radio, the 7600 has declined in street price. It is hardly fair to compare the present new price of a radio 10 years old to it's successor price.


Many here on eham seem to forget that 10 years ago a Flexradio 5000 with ATU and 2nd RX was $3800. And that radio needed a $1000 computer and $200 of ferrites to run.  :D :D :D I never heard any Flexers complain about those prices.


Like the Pro II, Pro III and the 7600, the 7610 will continue to appeal, probably even more than it's ancestors.

This obviously has worried those that are Flexradio Lovers as the 7610 could very well be the death of the Flexradio Company.

Interesting how all of the Flexers just have to try and crap on it as early as possible. Losers..... ;D

Predictable - YES -- but Hardly interesting.  ;)

Stan K9IUQ




Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 15, 2017, 05:50:15 AM
Actually $3,900. Now it will be interesting to see where the 7610 lands on Sherwood's list, especially in comparison to the 7300 on receiver performance. And then compared to the coming Flex 6400M (at a proposed price of $3,250 with ATU). Is the 7610 worth 3+ 7300's? And don't forget, if you want to tune that 2nd receiver simultaneously, you'll have to shell out another $260 for the RC-28 knob... bringing the total price to $4,160. It's gonna cause a lot of pre-order cancellations due to the pre-conditioned notion of a proposed price of $3,500. Time will tell where the price eventually winds up in a year. The 7300 started out at $1,500, and is now at $1,250.

In my opinion, the main reason to have two receivers is for contesters running SO2V or monitoring another band for activity. You can easily work DX split with one receiver and two VFO's. Contesters can run a more efficient SO2R with two 7300's, and have $1,660 more in your wallet.

73,  Bob K7JQ



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 07:14:19 AM
In my opinion, the main reason to have two receivers is for contesters running SO2V or monitoring another band for activity. You can easily work DX split with one receiver and two VFO's.
73,  Bob K7JQ


I do contesting but am not a hardcore contester. I am a enthusiastic DXer. Yes you can work split Dx with one receiver BUT it is a whole lot easier AND faster with Dual Watch or 2 RX's. ESPECIALLY in a large pileup.

You can always tell who has the one receiver and 2 vfos. They are the jerks that call while the DX is calling. They are the ones that sit for an hour trying to work split pileup DX.

I have had the Pro II, Pro III and the 7600. I also have a QSR1 which I run as a click and pounce Panafall when the going gets rough. HOWEVER 90% of the time Dual Watch is more than sufficient to easily work any split DX. I have always been surprised that other Hamradio manufacturers do not do the Dual Watch thingy as it is much more efficient and faster than split with only one RX. Cheaper to implement than 2 RX's too.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 07:27:59 AM
Now it will be interesting to see where the 7610 lands on Sherwood's list,
73,  Bob K7JQ

Only the clueless rely on Sherwoods list to buy a radio. I bought a Flexradio 5000 and at the time it was at the top of Sherwoods.List.  That Flex 5K ended up being the WORST hamradio purchase of my 57 yr ham career.

Many hams would be shocked to know what radios Mr. Sherwood has actually bought and personally used thru the years.  ;)

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KENNETH on November 15, 2017, 08:02:59 AM
How do you define worst Stan?. Thanks in advance.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2DTS on November 15, 2017, 08:05:15 AM
My new 7300 cost $1200.00 with no tax or shipping at HRO.
Three would cost $3600.00 without any bulk discount....

Not saying three 7300's would be as good as a 7610, but....


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N6YFM on November 15, 2017, 09:19:19 AM
My new 7300 cost $1200.00 with no tax or shipping at HRO.
Three would cost $3600.00 without any bulk discount....

Not saying three 7300's would be as good as a 7610, but....


But I don't get the logic with all the people comparing 3 times  IC-7300?
I *DO* understand that all of us were expecting approx $3500, and are mildly annoyed at $4,000.
But the multiplier thing with the IC-7300 makes no sense.
You can apply that to any radio or any object;

I can get 3 Ford Escape base models for the price of 1 Saleen Mustang.  Both fine cars.
I can get 3 Yaesu FT-DX3000's for the price of one Flex 6700.  Both fine rigs.
I can get 3 Tesla's for the price of your Ferrari.

Yes, but, um, if I wanted a Ferrari in the first place, why do I care about your
3 Tesla's?   Or, are all of us (me too) simply surprised at the large $4,000 number, and
using K-6 "math with object pictures" to show that we all understand the number?  :-)

Just sayin'


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 09:21:44 AM
How do you define worst Stan?. Thanks in advance.

WORST

1.Promises from Flexradio that were not met.

2. Sent Radio back for spur fix, asked for radio to be checked for Factory Performance. Radio was returned with two cables switched to wrong places and RX inoperative. Was told to send radio back to Flexradio at my expense.

3. Was told over and over my computer was part of the problem, in spite of having the latest greatest and DPC free (  ;) ) computer available. Had to buy $100 worth of Ferrites to cure RFI in shack that I never had before or since I got rid of the Flex.

4. Kicked off (BANNED) from Flexradio Customer forum for posting Facts that should not be posted publicly.

5 Owned the Flex 5K for only 11 months. I could not take it any longer. Lost lots of $$$ but it was worth every dollar to get rid of that P.O.S.

6. I was Ridiculed for years because I had the balls to tell and post publicly the real Truth about Flexradios and the attitude that the Company and Flexradio Owners use on customers, especially those customers who fail to have a coming to Jesus moment when they buy a Flexradio.   :D :D :D :D

WORST, yeah there is lots more I could say but the old time eHamers have read it all before.  :D

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: HAMSTUDY on November 15, 2017, 09:28:37 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall at Icom's HQ...

73 de WX0V

The Icom pricing meeting probably went something like this:

7610 Product Line Manager:  “We signaled to the market that the 7610 might be in the mid to lower $3k range and at $3k it’s still about 3x the 7300.  So let’s keep the price in the mid $3k range, but not any higher, and we'll sell a bunch.”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “We can always lower the price of the 7610 (or any model) but it’s very hard to raise a price, so let’s start at $4k and preserve our profit margin.   We want to be a good competitor and not harm our own marketplace.  If we lower prices too fast that could cause some of our competitors to make desperate price reductions.  We don't want a price war.  We want good volume and good margins.”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “But setting the price at $4k will disappoint some our potential 7610 customers including some of our pre-order customers; we might lose some of those orders.”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “People who can afford the 7610 and really want one will still buy one.  But if someone wants to buy a new radio and they can’t justify the price of a 7610, what are they going to buy?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “A 7300?”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “Yes, in many or most cases anyone who has been waiting for the 7610 and who still doesn’t have a 7300 will buy a 7300 if they can't afford or justify a 7610.  In other words, why should we compete with ourselves?  If someone buying a new radio can’t justify the 7610 price and they want a new radio, they will buy a 7300 more often than not.  After we announce the 7610's starting price the 7300 is going to look even better to potential new customers, if that's possible.” (smiles)

Overall Product Family Manager:  “And, just to be clear, what will an existing 7300 customer do if they can’t afford or justify a 7610?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “Keep their 7300 and be happy with the great value it provides. I suppose.”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “But, what if they buy a Flex?”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “If someone really wants a Flex instead of a 7610 or a 7300, or in addition to a 7300, they are going to buy a Flex anyway.  And if it turns out that new Flex models are really taking potential 7610 customers away from us we can always lower the price on the 7610.  In the meantime we won’t have to worry about quite as many 7300 owners dumping their 7300’s into the used market which would put pressure on the sales of new 7300s.  We are currently substantially in control of the market - why put needless pressure on ourselves?  So are we all in agreement?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “I guess” (shrugs)

7300 Product Line Manager:  “Sounds like a good plan to me” (smiles)

Overall Product Family Manager:  “Don’t look so glum 7610 Product Manager.  You will be able to lower the price on the 7610 as needed.  By this time next year if not sooner the 7610 will be a $3k radio if Flex shows we need to make such a price reduction.  And by the time the 7610 drops below $3k and the 7300 approaches $999 we will introduce the 7300 II and the 7610 II to reset prices.  Flex is a fine competitor that we admire from a distance but Icom is a much larger competitor and we need both volume and margin to successfully operate our business.  7300 Product Manager, we will charge the drinks after the meeting to your product line."


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 09:35:46 AM
I live in the USA. Companies, any Company can and will price the products according to what the market will bear. It is the American way. It is called free enterprise.

Customers can and will buy these products - - or not..

It is called freedom of choice and I like it...

No one here on eham cares about your (or my) opinion of prices. Opinions are like a-holes. Everyone has one and they ALL stink except yours..

LMAO
Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0UA on November 15, 2017, 10:01:55 AM
I would love to be a fly on the wall at Icom's HQ...

73 de WX0V

The Icom pricing meeting probably went something like this:

7610 Product Line Manager:  “We signaled to the market that the 7610 might be in the mid to lower $3k range and at $3k it’s still about 3x the 7300.  So let’s keep the price in the mid $3k range, but not any higher, and we'll sell a bunch.”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “We can always lower the price of the 7610 (or any model) but it’s very hard to raise a price, so let’s start at $4k and preserve our profit margin.   We want to be a good competitor and not harm our own marketplace.  If we lower prices too fast that could cause some of our competitors to make desperate price reductions.  We don't want a price war.  We want good volume and good margins.”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “But setting the price at $4k will disappoint some our potential 7610 customers including some of our pre-order customers; we might lose some of those orders.”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “People who can afford the 7610 and really want one will still buy one.  But if someone wants to buy a new radio and they can’t justify the price of a 7610, what are they going to buy?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “A 7300?”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “Yes, in many or most cases anyone who has been waiting for the 7610 and who still doesn’t have a 7300 will buy a 7300 if they can't afford or justify a 7610.  In other words, why should we compete with ourselves?  If someone buying a new radio can’t justify the 7610 price and they want a new radio, they will buy a 7300 more often than not.  After we announce the 7610's starting price the 7300 is going to look even better to potential new customers, if that's possible.” (smiles)

Overall Product Family Manager:  “And, just to be clear, what will an existing 7300 customer do if they can’t afford or justify a 7610?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “Keep their 7300 and be happy with the great value it provides. I suppose.”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “But, what if they buy a Flex?”

Overall Product Family Manager:  “If someone really wants a Flex instead of a 7610 or a 7300, or in addition to a 7300, they are going to buy a Flex anyway.  And if it turns out that new Flex models are really taking potential 7610 customers away from us we can always lower the price on the 7610.  In the meantime we won’t have to worry about quite as many 7300 owners dumping their 7300’s into the used market which would put pressure on the sales of new 7300s.  We are currently substantially in control of the market - why put needless pressure on ourselves?  So are we all in agreement?”

7610 Product Line Manager:  “I guess” (shrugs)

7300 Product Line Manager:  “Sounds like a good plan to me” (smiles)

Overall Product Family Manager:  “Don’t look so glum 7610 Product Manager.  You will be able to lower the price on the 7610 as needed.  By this time next year if not sooner the 7610 will be a $3k radio if Flex shows we need to make such a price reduction.  And by the time the 7610 drops below $3k and the 7300 approaches $999 we will introduce the 7300 II and the 7610 II to reset prices.  Flex is a fine competitor that we admire from a distance but Icom is a much larger competitor and we need both volume and margin to successfully operate our business.  7300 Product Manager, we will charge the drinks after the meeting to your product line."


I suspect this is pretty  close to being right. The good news?  My old 756pro3 is probably worth a bit more today than it was yesterday. And I still love my 7300 too. :)  I am a happy man. If I could easily afford a 7610 I would have one.. But I can't.  But I still have some really nice rigs.  I even have a Yaesu....:)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 15, 2017, 10:53:43 AM
This obviously has worried those that are Flexradio Lovers as the 7610 could very well be the death of the Flexradio Company.

I doubt that'll be the case as Icom and Flex target different users. Despite the fact that Flex is going to offer rigs with knobs (the 6400M and 6600M), I think their main market will continue to be the traditional SDR where everything is controlled by a GUI application running on a PC. I suspect that Flex's commercial products probably provides enough revenue to even out any hills and valleys in the sales of their amateur rigs.

Didn't I hear the same thing a few years ago when the IC-7300 came out and was supposed to be the death of Flex, the K3, (you fill in the blank)?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 15, 2017, 11:37:08 AM
This obviously has worried those that are Flexradio Lovers as the 7610 could very well be the death of the Flexradio Company.

I doubt that'll be the case as Icom and Flex target different users. Despite the fact that Flex is going to offer rigs with knobs (the 6400M and 6600M), I think their main market will continue to be the traditional SDR where everything is controlled by a GUI application running on a PC. I suspect that Flex's commercial products probably provides enough revenue to even out any hills and valleys in the sales of their amateur rigs.

Didn't I hear the same thing a few years ago when the IC-7300 came out and was supposed to be the death of Flex, the K3, (you fill in the blank)?

I think Flex's main market will be the traditional black box SDR because the display on the Maestro is nothing short of rinky dink.  The door display on a Panasonic refrigerator looks better and no one with any brains is going to want to pay that much for a radio that looks makeshift no matter how it performs.  I doubt that the IC-7610 will be the death of any company but Icom has made every serious amateur radio manufacturer sit up and take notice.  Icom, Kenwood, and Yaesu have commercial an military radio contracts, so does Flex Radio for that matter so they are not going to disappear.  Flex caters to a smaller nice than Icom and the sales show it but Stan has a good point.  The IC-7610 might not undo Flex but their lack of follow through on upgrades for radios that cost a lot more than the Icom might very well do them in.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0YQ on November 15, 2017, 12:39:55 PM
What I find interesting, from a marketing perspective, is the IC-7610 is set to replace the (currently) $2,000 IC-7600.  At $4,000 (or $3,900), that is twice the price of the radio it's replacing (and it is clearly being marketed as a direct replacement; hence, no new series number).

Has this ever happened before?--where a replacement is double the price of the existing model?

So is Icom then ditching the very popular $3,000 radio market?  Granted, the price WILL drop; you often pay a premium to be the first in the door, but even then a drop might be, what, $200 or $300?  It's still well above the $3K mark, that Ham Radio buyers are so accustomed to.  

Granted, this radio is a nice step above the IC-7600; SDR, 2 receivers, DiGi Sel, etc.  However, is it truly worth twice the price?  Will that $4,000 tag scare away the pre-order people like me?  Or do they change their orders to the IC-7600 for half the price like N3AWS mentioned?  

I currently have a 10 year old 756 PROIII.  If the email I got today said the IC-7610 is $3,499 and is shipping on Monday, I'd be pretty excited (I pre-ordered it in December of last year).  Instead, it's $4,000...$500 more than Icom's own rep said it would be on a youtube video from Xenia (linked here; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAhllEAUnk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGAhllEAUnk) -- go the 1:40 mark)...now I am questioning this...I wonder how many others feel like I do?

I would love to be a fly on the wall at Icom's HQ for their first quarter sales recap meeting in 2018...it will be interesting to see if the market accepts a $4K radio in a $3K radio world...maybe...maybe not?

We'll see...

73 de WX0V

I also still use my 756Pro3 with the Inrad roofing filter and never perceived the 7600 as being enough of a step up to upgrade.  I was hoping the 7610 would be in the $3K range.  $4K too rich for my blood, although looks like an amazing rig.  If the new 7600s plummet down into the $1500 range I might buy one. 

Do you feel like I do?  Yes I do! 


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 15, 2017, 01:02:11 PM
I just spoke to DX Engineering.  Although the price on the email was $3,999.95 (hence, the title of this thread), the actual price will be $100 less at $3,899.95 (as others noted).  Perhaps the $4,000 was an MSRP and the $100 off is the "street price"; similar to what K9IUQ mentioned about the IC-7600. 

If so, then the IC-7610 is priced in line with its predecessor (which K9IUQ and KA4DPO stated), but I still do not think the 7600 was double the price of then then-existing IC-756 PROIII.  The deep discounting of the IC-7600 (must be a lot of them sitting in Icom's warehouse) probably is related to that.

Nevertheless, I confirmed my order and will take delivery when it happens.

I still think it's somewhat of a gamble to replace a $2,000 radio with a $3,900 one, but we'll see.  I also said Denver would easily beat Seattle in Super Bowl XLVIII.

They also said they expect the radio to start shipping in the last week of November/first week of December time frame (so the "ship" date is not 11/20/17).  Just when those who pre-ordered it will get theirs will vary.

Oh, and I ordered just 1...not 2 or 3...any more and I'd be accused of duping!  "WX0V 7610 B4 TU UP"  ;D   

73 de WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 15, 2017, 01:13:57 PM
 K0YQ

I was hoping the 7610 would be in the $3K range.  $4K too rich for my blood, although looks like an amazing rig.  If the new 7600s plummet down into the $1500 range I might buy one. 

Do you feel like I do?  Yes I do! 
[/quote]

Love the Frampton reference!

I feel like you do, too (talk-box into Marshall stack).  I was hoping it was closer to $3K, but it is what it is. :(

The good news is, history dictates the price WILL drop in time.  It all depends how much you want one.  I have beaten the living snot out of my PROIII the past 10 years, and it has some issues, so I am due.  A nit-picky thing to be sure, but I cannot stand the s-meter on the IC-7600, so that's out for me.

Enough of this WX0V radio history...have fun and 73! de WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 15, 2017, 01:29:19 PM
The IC-7610 might not undo Flex but their lack of follow through on upgrades for radios that cost a lot more than the Icom might very well do them in.

And what upgrades are they not following through on?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: AB4D on November 15, 2017, 01:59:35 PM

I doubt that'll be the case as Icom and Flex target different users. Despite the fact that Flex is going to offer rigs with knobs (the 6400M and 6600M), I think their main market will continue to be the traditional SDR where everything is controlled by a GUI application running on a PC. I suspect that Flex's commercial products probably provides enough revenue to even out any hills and valleys in the sales of their amateur rigs.

Didn't I hear the same thing a few years ago when the IC-7300 came out and was supposed to be the death of Flex, the K3, (you fill in the blank)?

I agree, plenty of market share for most manufacturers. There has always been a rodeo between the big three Japanese manufactures, trying to top each other.  Flex and even Anan are a bit different.  Dedicated SDR enthusiasts that don't care about knobs or all in one boxes, has been a significant portion of their amateur radio market base.  They may own a Flexradio or Anan or both, but it's usually not the only SDR they own.  They are interested moreso with the technical and software aspect of SDR, and the flexibility that can provide.

Icom entered SDR with products directed more at operators.  They will continue to sell a bunch of IC-7300's and now IC-7610's.  It appeals to the masses, with promises of better performance, and a better operating experience than previous analog models. However, the radio they purchase, will more than likely remain virtually the same, with minor updates.  There is not much for the operator to do, but to turn it on, and set the menus.  Icom's SDR models very much mirror their previous analog offerings in that regard, and people are comfortable with that type of hardware.  Assuredly, Yaesu and perhaps Kenwood will follow suit, and will roll out their own SDR versions, making SDR less unique and will equalize the market.

Jim, AB4D  



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
I think Flex's main market will be the traditional black box SDR because the display on the Maestro is nothing short of rinky dink.  The door display on a Panasonic refrigerator looks better and no one with any brains is going to want to pay that much for a radio that looks makeshift no matter how it performs. 

And here I thought I was the only one who thought the Maestro was "odd". Flexers must like it as Flexradio's new models (are they shipping yet??) look like they just plastered a Maestro with glue on the front of their black box radios. Ugly, real ugly, but not as bad as the pictures of the back of their new radios though.. That back looks like pot metal, cheap pot metal at that. Hasn't Flexradio's advertising department  heard of PhotoShop?  ;)

I remember when the Icom Pro II first came out. Hams were mesmerized by that beautiful color display. That display sold a LOT of radios for Icom.

Regrettably Flexradio's display on their new models is not going to sell any radios to customers not already locked into the "Flex Culture".
 
Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 02:54:08 PM
The IC-7610 might not undo Flex but their lack of follow through on upgrades for radios that cost a lot more than the Icom might very well do them in.

And what upgrades are they not following through on?

I will let KA9DPO answer that. But do NOT to worry Jerry. KE9NS will take care of you orphaned Flex 6000 owners after Flexradio decides to dump computers and go all in knobbed.   ;) :D :D :D

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0YQ on November 15, 2017, 03:11:18 PM
K0YQ

I was hoping the 7610 would be in the $3K range.  $4K too rich for my blood, although looks like an amazing rig.  If the new 7600s plummet down into the $1500 range I might buy one. 

Do you feel like I do?  Yes I do! 


Love the Frampton reference!

I feel like you do, too (talk-box into Marshall stack).  I was hoping it was closer to $3K, but it is what it is. :(



Woke up this morning with an Icom in my hands
Whose wine?  What wine?  What the hell did I buy?

Ha ha.  The 7610 comes alive.   ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 15, 2017, 04:17:12 PM
Now it will be interesting to see where the 7610 lands on Sherwood's list,
73,  Bob K7JQ

Only the clueless rely on Sherwoods list to buy a radio. I bought a Flexradio 5000 and at the time it was at the top of Sherwoods.List.  That Flex 5K ended up being the WORST hamradio purchase of my 57 yr ham career.

Many hams would be shocked to know what radios Mr. Sherwood has actually bought and personally used thru the years.  ;)

Stan K9IUQ

"Clueless"? Well then, I guess most of the big time, experienced, knowledgeable, proficient, and smartest contesters in the world (who rely on the best receiver performance to rack up the highest scores) are clueless ;). The list is not the end-all, be-all, but it is generally regarded as the most highly regarded comparison of radio performance. Not that everyone relies solely on the list to buy a radio, but it is a reliable source for an informed decision. Depending on your operating preferences, other factors besides performance specs/numbers will come into play on a final decision. But "clueless"?? I think not.

Bob K7JQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 15, 2017, 04:51:48 PM
Well then, I guess most of the big time, experienced, knowledgeable, proficient, and smartest contesters in the world (who rely on the best receiver performance to rack up the highest scores) are clueless ;).

Bob K7JQ

Your statement IS Clueless. Best RX Performance does not rack up high scores. It is only one small factor. Location, power levels, big antennas, lots of $$$ and probably most of all experience and skill rack  up high scores.

An experienced Contester running a Yaesu  FT-991A would rack up higher scores than a Ham like me or you running a top rated Sherwood radio like a Flexradio or Elecraft....  :D

A Top Sherwood Rated radio does not make a great Contester. Never has and never will...

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 15, 2017, 05:22:11 PM
Well then, I guess most of the big time, experienced, knowledgeable, proficient, and smartest contesters in the world (who rely on the best receiver performance to rack up the highest scores) are clueless ;).

Bob K7JQ

Your statement IS Clueless. Best RX Performance does not rack up high scores. It is only one small factor. Location, power levels, big antennas, lots of $$$ and probably most of all experience and skill rack  up high scores.

An experienced Contester running a Yaesu  FT-991A would rack up higher scores than a Ham like me or you running a top rated Sherwood radio like a Flexradio or Elecraft....  :D

A Top Sherwood Rated radio does not make a great Contester. Never has and never will...

Stan K9IUQ

Stan, your stated factors do contribute to high scores...no debate there. But contesters want every tool available for that competitive edge. Top contesters won't consider a FT-991A. The Sherwood list is a proven reliable tool for their "consideration" of what to use for that extra competitive edge. And how do you know how experienced a contester I am?

Not to be snarky, but calling my statement "clueless" just goes to show how narrow-minded you are. We agree to disagree. No need to disparage one's opinion.

Bob K7JQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 15, 2017, 05:26:42 PM
And here I thought I was the only one who thought the Maestro was "odd". Flexers must like it as Flexradio's new models (are they shipping yet??) look like they just plastered a Maestro with glue on the front of their black box radios.

The Maestro is indeed odd. Internally it's a Dell tablet providing the display and a custom board that interfaces to the knobs and buttons and to the radio over Ethernet. I wonder what Flex is going to do when Dell discontinues the tablet model used in the Maestro? Perhaps they bought a big supply of them or perhaps they plan to move to a different tablet model.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on November 15, 2017, 05:37:42 PM
i think the best radios are the ones with the best quality audio on receive.

i sold my flex 6500 because it cannot compare to the 7851 on receive. I have a Anan that has not been on for a month. Something about the new icom  that is really "second to none" when it comes to ease of use and pure operating pleasure. Not sure of the way the touch screen menu works on the 7610 and it looks odd on you tube compared to my 7851. I would be shocked it it is anywhere near the 7851 in stats and real time performance.  I dont see me buying one. The 7300 is too small.

I will watch a lot of videos, that will be on my list of things to do. I bet it will be a lot of rig for the money.


Greg




Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KF7DS on November 15, 2017, 08:48:49 PM
The price is more than I expected but still within the ball park of reasonableness. Look what it would cost to outfit an Elecraft K3s based station with similar features......$4,800+. In fact, their DXer package, that includes the P3 Panadapter, starts at $5,300. So, in that light, the 7610 is a better value proposition.

Can't wait for mine to arrive at the local HRO in two weeks.

Don


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 16, 2017, 12:13:30 AM
The reason people fixate on the IC-7610 being 3x the price of the IC-7300 is because the IC-7300 bought a whole host of new bells and whistles to the table at the bottom end of the market.

The IC-7610 on the other hand (aside from RX performance that you can for all practical purposes get with an IC-7300), isn't that much of a step forward over the IC-7600, in terms of features.  Sure, the execution is better in every single way, but if its in the IC-7610, you can be pretty confident an older version of that feature will be in the IC-7600.

For a lot of people, the reason to buy a high end rig (IC-7851 being elite class etc), was to get features like voice keyers, digital mode decoders, a panadaptor etc.  All of this can be had with an IC-7300 now.

The SDR architecture made it cheap to include a host of unheard of features in a just above entry level rig; the same doesn't seem to have borne out in the high end sector.

I personally believe Icom will have to start changing their business model to so that after sales firmware updates with new features are part of the product.

I do enjoy my IC-7610 immensely, but a lot of that enjoyment comes from the fact it is a bigger radio than the IC-7300, rather than any specific feature.  The biggest advantage I have found so far is the fact that 2 antenna ports, 2 receivers and 2 cutting edge panadaptors allows for real time antenna comparison.

That said, if I had of designed the product at a $3899 price point, I would have ditched the digi select preselectors and instead equipped the radio with a real PA stage; 200 Watts with pre-distortion.  If Icom had done that, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I wouldn't still have an Anan 100D in the shack.


The only other thing I wish they had done was invest money into their SDR software so that antenna phasing could be done.  With the amount of noise in the average suburban ham shack, this would be a killer feature.  At least they included a 3rd RX input so I can add on a DX Engineering NCC-2 Phaser and active antenna kit with no worry of frying anything.

Simply put, the IC-7300 was leaps and bounds beyond the IC-7200.  The IC-7610 is not leaps and bounds beyond the IC-7610.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 16, 2017, 01:15:08 AM
For those that are wondering, here is a demonstration of my favorite feature of the IC-7610: Comparing two antennas in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s)

The dual high speed 'fish finders' give you a fantastic overview of how propagation is performing at any given moment :)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 16, 2017, 02:05:57 AM
I should point out the poorly labelled 'dual watch' in the IC-7610 is indeed two separate receivers capable of use on any band, unlike the IC-7600 which for the most part was limited to usage on the same band.  They should have ditched the 'dual watch' moniker and gone with dual receiver or invented a new term.   

One thing I don't really like is that I can't seem to find a way to switch between which VFO is the one selected to transmit.  Even my FT-101E can do this easily. 

The reason its annoying is because I can't dedicate my sub receiver to digital modes, whilst using my main receiver for phone; that would be a killer feature in my books because of auto lockout.  2x IC-7300s and some external hardware would EASILY accomplish this, and likely come under budget.

The only way I've found to transmit on the sub receiver's VFO frequency is to press the 'SPLIT' button, which just seems wrong in my opinion; that said, at least it can be done.  Luckily, you can have dual watch and split enabled at the same time, and be on different bands.  This doesn't help for the aforementioned digital mode use case, however.

Hopefully, they will address this in firmware, although they may be unwilling to do so to protect their flagship line. 

I do hope they address it, because without doing so 2x IC-7300s would be a much more sensible choice for a suburban contest enthusiast; 80dB of dynamic range is more than enough for a contest op with a suburban noise floor.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on November 16, 2017, 02:57:30 AM
J.D, does the 7610 have a mouse interface like the 7851?

Greg


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 16, 2017, 06:36:37 AM
The IC-7610 is not leaps and bounds beyond the IC-7610

How could it be?  ;)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VE3WGO on November 16, 2017, 06:44:09 AM
One could almost imagine that Icom's plan all along may have been to use the IC-7610 pricing strategy for increasing IC-7300 sales.

After all, there is no peer for the IC-7300 with a direct sampling receiver, direct digital 100W transmitter, realtime band scope, and auto-tuner all in a compact portable self-sufficient box.  Icom has this market segment all to itself!

I'm more surprised that the 7300 is priced so low.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 16, 2017, 09:15:39 PM
For those that are wondering, here is a demonstration of my favorite feature of the IC-7610: Comparing two antennas in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s)

The dual high speed 'fish finders' give you a fantastic overview of how propagation is performing at any given moment :)


Hi J.D.,

Thank you for posting your IC-7610 videos on You Tube.

Question...for you (or anyone)...admittedly off-topic (pricing of the IC-7610)...

I cannot see either on the radio, or in the Basic Manual, where the IC-7610 has any select-able roofing filters (whereas the IC-7600 does include them).

Did Icom include any with this new offering?

Thank you and 73!

Scott - WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N6YFM on November 16, 2017, 09:27:40 PM
For those that are wondering, here is a demonstration of my favorite feature of the IC-7610: Comparing two antennas in real time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjvN23Jpc0s)

The dual high speed 'fish finders' give you a fantastic overview of how propagation is performing at any given moment :)


Hi J.D.,

Thank you for posting your IC-7610 videos on You Tube.

Question...for you (or anyone)...admittedly off-topic (pricing of the IC-7610)...

I cannot see either on the radio, or in the Basic Manual, where the IC-7610 has any select-able roofing filters (whereas the IC-7600 does include them).

Did Icom include any with this new offering?

Thank you and 73!

Scott - WX0V

Roofing filters are used in a more traditional analog radio design.  It is usually found after the first receiver mixer.
In an SDR like the Icom or the Flex, very close to the antenna input (past analog pre-selectors and
attenuators, and maybe antenna switching, the RF signal is fed directly into an Analog to Digital Converter chip, instead of into
a local oscillator, mixer, roofing filters, and IF stage.  There is NO mixer in an SDR radio.  Hence, no roofing filters either.

So very early on, you digitize ALL of what is coming in from the antenna, and then the FPGA chip and microprocessor
is doing digital signal processing, using math to simulate various filters and functions, and demodulators.
On an SDR, you can move a slider, or turn a knob, and change the shape, sharpness, and bandwidth of multiple
pass and notch filters, to suite what you like.   Think of this as having an assortment of several hundred, or infinite,
styles of roofing filters at your disposal.
Take a look online at block diagrams for the 7300 or the 7610 radio.
It is a completely different paradigm, in no way similar to analog superhet radio designs.

Cheers


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 16, 2017, 09:34:46 PM
Super! Thank you for that explanation, N6YFM.  Now I know.  ;D

73!


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2RJ on November 17, 2017, 06:58:15 AM
And here I thought I was the only one who thought the Maestro was "odd". Flexers must like it as Flexradio's new models (are they shipping yet??) look like they just plastered a Maestro with glue on the front of their black box radios.

The Maestro is indeed odd. Internally it's a Dell tablet providing the display and a custom board that interfaces to the knobs and buttons and to the radio over Ethernet. I wonder what Flex is going to do when Dell discontinues the tablet model used in the Maestro? Perhaps they bought a big supply of them or perhaps they plan to move to a different tablet model.

They already did move to a different tablet. They can do this easily. The New Maestro has a side power button because it is a different tablet.

Tablets are used in all sorts of applications. The new M series don't use tablets. They use a different module.

For people who are predicting doom and gloom for Flex, they have sold out two full production runs of the new radios and are swamped with orders. I get inquiries daily about them from every kind of operator - rag chew, contest, DXer, weak signal and more. They had to hire new people as well. Trust me when I say that they are only growing.

I do admit though, that Icom makes a pretty nice looking radio. The 7300 was pretty good because it was priced right. The 7610, I don't know. I think people who are scared of running a Flex or Anan and who want to try SDR with a familiar interface will buy one. The power users I talk to (contesters) are some of those. But they are icom people already - ProIII being the most popular. I own four Icoms, and they are decent rigs, but they don't compare to the Flex.

The 7300 and 7610 use a narrowband IF and don't even make full use of what an SDR can do. They put ethernet on the 7610 yet cripple it with the RS-BA1 software. They have two ADCs and don't even do full duplex!!! They provide a video out yet cripple it to 800x640 (or such a low resolution). That may be "enough" for many people but many people also want more. They want a HD display, HDMI output at full resolution, high resolution panadapter, ability to run 4-8 receivers, and full band I/Q out.

SmartSDR, even given its faults is leaps and bounds beyond what conventional transceivers offer. PowerSDR (which was formerly a Flex product as well, open source and now built on by others) is still the standard SDR software.

2018 will be a very interesting year, with more choices. The fact that Flex is making Icom nervous means they aren't going anywhere.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2WQ on November 17, 2017, 08:06:44 AM
And here I thought I was the only one who thought the Maestro was "odd". Flexers must like it as Flexradio's new models (are they shipping yet??) look like they just plastered a Maestro with glue on the front of their black box radios.

The Maestro is indeed odd. Internally it's a Dell tablet providing the display and a custom board that interfaces to the knobs and buttons and to the radio over Ethernet. I wonder what Flex is going to do when Dell discontinues the tablet model used in the Maestro? Perhaps they bought a big supply of them or perhaps they plan to move to a different tablet model.

For people who are predicting doom and gloom for Flex, they have sold out two full production runs of the new radios and are swamped with orders. I get inquiries daily about them from every kind of operator - rag chew, contest, DXer, weak signal and more. They had to hire new people as well. Trust me when I say that they are only growing.


This really doesn't mean very much. If I have production runs of 5 units, of course I will be sold out in no time.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2WQ on November 17, 2017, 08:11:31 AM
And here I thought I was the only one who thought the Maestro was "odd". Flexers must like it as Flexradio's new models (are they shipping yet??) look like they just plastered a Maestro with glue on the front of their black box radios.

The Maestro is indeed odd. Internally it's a Dell tablet providing the display and a custom board that interfaces to the knobs and buttons and to the radio over Ethernet. I wonder what Flex is going to do when Dell discontinues the tablet model used in the Maestro? Perhaps they bought a big supply of them or perhaps they plan to move to a different tablet model.

I think people who are scared of running a Flex or Anan and who want to try SDR with a familiar interface will buy one. The power users I talk to (contesters) are some of those. But they are icom people already - ProIII being the most popular. I own four Icoms, and they are decent rigs, but they don't compare to the Flex.

The 7300 and 7610 use a narrowband IF and don't even make full use of what an SDR can do. They put ethernet on the 7610 yet cripple it with the RS-BA1 software. They have two ADCs and don't even do full duplex!!! They provide a video out yet cripple it to 800x640 (or such a low resolution). That may be "enough" for many people but many people also want more. They want a HD display, HDMI output at full resolution, high resolution panadapter, ability to run 4-8 receivers, and full band I/Q out.

SmartSDR, even given its faults is leaps and bounds beyond what conventional transceivers offer. PowerSDR (which was formerly a Flex product as well, open source and now built on by others) is still the standard SDR software.


All that features talk is irrelevant at the personal level. At the end of the day manufacturers design, build, and sell equipment based on market research, demand, and profit targets. The most likely reason behind what Icom is offering in the 7610 is that these are the features people want and are willing to pay for. This is a business, not a hobby.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K8AC on November 17, 2017, 08:57:39 AM
Quote
Only the clueless rely on Sherwoods list to buy a radio. I bought a Flexradio 5000 and at the time it was at the top of Sherwoods.List.  That Flex 5K ended up being the WORST hamradio purchase of my 57 yr ham career.

Stan, I agree with the intent of your statement, but you could have been a bit more diplomatic.  Unfortunately, many folks who don't read between the lines and haven't studied any of Rob Sherwood's many presentations actually think that the Sherwood listing is a ranking of the overall performance of the radios on the list.  For those people, here's a shocker: the list ranks the receivers ONLY and the list is in order by a SINGLE performance parameter - close spaced dynamic range.  As W8JI and Sherwood have pointed out many times, 80 dB is perfectly adequate 99% of the time, so making a decision based on a couple of dB when the numbers are above 100 dB really doesn't make any sense.  It's a somewhat interesting exercise to copy the top 20-30 radios' data from the Sherwood listing into a new spreadsheet and then sort the spreadsheet on various other columns than close spaced IMD. 

Regarding your comments on your experience with the FTDX-5000, I agree with you 100%.  I bought a second-hand 5000 some time ago and did something few people apparently do- I put a scope on the output and observed the length and shape of the dots and dashes as I sent a string of each.  I found that what was actually being sent didn't relate to what was being heard in the sidetone.  Even with an external keyer, actual dit length varied wildly as a string was being sent (yes, the dits coming from the keyer were of uniform length.  I ended up selling the 5000 to a guy (with full disclosure) who said he NEVER would operate CW anyway. 



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 17, 2017, 09:03:53 AM
For people who are predicting doom and gloom for Flex, they have sold out two full production runs of the new radios and are swamped with orders. I get inquiries daily about them from every kind of operator - rag chew, contest, DXer, weak signal and more. They had to hire new people as well. Trust me when I say that they are only growing.

I'm not among those predicting gloom. I think Flex, like a lot of other companies in the radio biz these days, has the commercial market as their bread and butter with the amateur market just lost in the noise.

The new Icoms will appeal to the more traditional operator who likes twiddling knobs and pushing buttons, because that's how they've always done it. The fact that these rigs are direct digital conversion internally isn't really a factor to these guys, it's just incidental. Ditto with the spectrum/waterfall display. The dinky spectrum displays on Icom rigs are barely useful compared to, say, the SmartSDR or PowerSDR applications running on large monitors at high resolutions. Too bad Icom crippled the external display interface on the 7610 by restricting it to low resolutions (and why the heck did they use an antique interface like DVI-D rather than HDMI or DisplayPort?)  >:(

My first SDR rig was a Flex-5000A, and I loved the PowerSDR interface, the lack of need for cables and sound cards to use it on digital modes, and just about everything else about it (except how it performed on CW). I've been in the computer industry my entire career (and as a hobbyist before that), so GUI interfaces just seem natural to me. I eventually sold the 5000A due to it's CW issues and bought a traditional knobbed rig. That solved the CW issue, but I really missed the computer interface paradigm. I bought a Flex-6000 series rig as soon as they came out and relegated my knobbed rig to the closet as a backup.

I'm looking to replace that knobbed backup rig with another SDR, but probably not a Flex as they seem to be moving in the direction of knobs with their M rigs and the non-M 6600 doesn't really offer much of anything over my 6500. I'll probably buy an ANAN, which is more of an SDR "kit" rig compared to the more polished Flex rigs, but I like that. I'm even planning on doing some development on PowerSDR (I'm a firmware engineer by profession).


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 17, 2017, 09:42:00 AM
For people who are predicting doom and gloom for Flex, they have sold out two full production runs of the new radios and are swamped with orders. I get inquiries daily about them from every kind of operator - rag chew, contest, DXer, weak signal and more. They had to hire new people as well. Trust me when I say that they are only growing.

I'm not among those predicting gloom. I think Flex, like a lot of other companies in the radio biz these days, has the commercial market as their bread and butter with the amateur market just lost in the noise.

The new Icoms will appeal to the more traditional operator who likes twiddling knobs and pushing buttons, because that's how they've always done it. The fact that these rigs are direct digital conversion internally isn't really a factor to these guys, it's just incidental. Ditto with the spectrum/waterfall display. The dinky spectrum displays on Icom rigs are barely useful compared to, say, the SmartSDR or PowerSDR applications running on large monitors at high resolutions. Too bad Icom crippled the external display interface on the 7610 by restricting it to low resolutions (and why the heck did they use an antique interface like DVI-D rather than HDMI or DisplayPort?)  >:(

My first SDR rig was a Flex-5000A, and I loved the PowerSDR interface, the lack of need for cables and sound cards to use it on digital modes, and just about everything else about it (except how it performed on CW). I've been in the computer industry my entire career (and as a hobbyist before that), so GUI interfaces just seem natural to me. I eventually sold the 5000A due to it's CW issues and bought a traditional knobbed rig. That solved the CW issue, but I really missed the computer interface paradigm. I bought a Flex-6000 series rig as soon as they came out and relegated my knobbed rig to the closet as a backup.

I'm looking to replace that knobbed backup rig with another SDR, but probably not a Flex as they seem to be moving in the direction of knobs with their M rigs and the non-M 6600 doesn't really offer much of anything over my 6500. I'll probably buy an ANAN, which is more of an SDR "kit" rig compared to the more polished Flex rigs, but I like that. I'm even planning on doing some development on PowerSDR (I'm a firmware engineer by profession).

I get what you said except the part about the dinky display, I'm pretty certain the 7610 enables an external display.  As for traditional operators you are pretty close to the mark there.  I don't want, or need a big display or a bunch of computer stuff connected to my radio.  I was a contester and obscure country hunter many years ago but that gets old.  These days I am a casual operator and I prefer working stateside stations but still chase DX occasionally.  Frankly, you don't even need a band scope to do those things, I managed just fine without one for many years.  The scope on my 7600 doesn't do much for me although I do like the PSK and RTTY decode feature  so the waterfall is useful for digital modes even tough I rarely work them anymore.  I pretty much stick to CW and phone these days and the only reason I am looking to buy a 7610 is because I simply want a new radi that's better than the one I have.

And not to be indelicate or anything but the display on the Maestro that I saw was absolutely awful.  The entire device looked like a toaster oven.  Flex really needs to do something about that or stick with the black box format.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 17, 2017, 10:21:30 AM
I get what you said except the part about the dinky display, I'm pretty certain the 7610 enables an external display.

Yes, the 7610 supports an external display. That's good. However... The external display attaches via a DVI-D connector on the back panel. DVI-D was old a decade ago. I'm wondering why Icom didn't use an HDMI or DisplayPort connector, both of which are more common these days. The biggest problem with the 7610 external display port is this: it only supports 800x480 or 800x600. The most common size monitor these days is probably a 24" display, and that usually supports a minimum resolution of 1920x1200. The front panel display is 7", 800x480, so the external display only supports that resolution (800x480) and one with a little more vertical resolution (800x600). That's pitiful in this day and age--my cell phone's display is 1920x1080... So buy using the external display option on the 7610 you're just getting a bigger display, not a higher resolution display.

Quote
And not to be indelicate or anything but the display on the Maestro that I saw was absolutely awful.  The entire device looked like a toaster oven.  Flex really needs to do something about that or stick with the black box format.

The Maestro uses a Dell tablet internally for its display.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 17, 2017, 10:55:17 AM
Well, the "dinky display" resolution on my 7300 is pretty sharp, bright, and fast...even with the bad cornea in my right eye. And when you adjust the upper and lower fixed edges to a smaller band segment, as for a specific contest mode, there's plenty of distinct signal separation on the scope/waterfall...much better than my 7600. The larger screen on the 7610, without putting it up on a larger monitor, will be even better. Not knocking the high resolution display on the Flexes...they're beautiful. But for me, mostly a contester, "dinky display" is just fine. We're looking at a communications display, not a Blu-ray motion picture.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KENNETH on November 17, 2017, 12:31:31 PM
Gigaparts is saying Ditch that 7300
"Trade-in your like new or very good condition IC-7300 and get the IC-7610 for $2899.95! Very good condition means no damage, with the original box, manual, mic and power cord. Lesser conditions will bring a lower trade-in value."

MTC Radio is doing the same thing,
"We are very pleased to let you know that we are rolling out a new Icom Owner Loyalty program. Do you Want a new IC-7610? Did you buy a new IC-7300 from us? Trade it in today
If your radio is a non smoker, is clean and nice and you have the Box, Manual, Mic and Power Cord We will trade you out of it today and you can get a new IC-7610 for $2899 Difference Shipped to the USA!"


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 17, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
Quote
Only the clueless rely on Sherwoods list to buy a radio. I bought a Flexradio 5000 and at the time it was at the top of Sherwoods.List.  That Flex 5K ended up being the WORST hamradio purchase of my 57 yr ham career.

Stan, I agree with the intent of your statement, but you could have been a bit more diplomatic.  Unfortunately, many folks who don't read between the lines and haven't studied any of Rob Sherwood's many presentations actually think that the Sherwood listing is a ranking of the overall performance of the radios on the list.  For those people, here's a shocker: the list ranks the receivers ONLY and the list is in order by a SINGLE performance parameter - close spaced dynamic range.  As W8JI and Sherwood have pointed out many times, 80 dB is perfectly adequate 99% of the time, so making a decision based on a couple of dB when the numbers are above 100 dB really doesn't make any sense. 

Being diplomatic is not one of my strong points.  :D   Telling the truth IS.

There is much more to a satisfying radio than "closed spaced dynamic range". Your whole post put into words what I was thinking. Maybe your post will help some of the clueless hams who blindly think that Sherwoods Ranking is the Holy Grail for buying a radio.

Buying a radio by Sherwoods Ranking is stupid. Even Rob will tell you that. oops that was not diplomatic...  ;)

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 17, 2017, 01:10:43 PM
Trust me when I say that they are only growing.

they have sold out two full production runs of the new radios

 The fact that Flex is making Icom nervous means they aren't going anywhere.
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.qrz.com/j/n2rj/IMG_7325.jpg)


OH YEAH, I trust Flexradio Lovers......
Especially from a Ham that is a Well Known Flexradio Ambassador.  

OMG Ria, you Flex Lovers really have a sense of humor. I am still ROTFL over your comments..

It is very obvious to anyone not brainwashed by Flex Culture in this forum that you Flex Lovers are VERY nervous about Icom going SDR..

Now about that Flexradio production run, was it 10 or 25 radios? Are they in the hands of owners now? Seems like they were promised in October, I assume this year????  :D :D :D

Have you got one of those new production run Flexradios?  Or has Flexradio promised a new shipping date? IOW is Flexradio still selling and making lots of $$$$ on Reservations or actual shipped Radios.  :D :D

Stan K9IUQ



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W9OY on November 17, 2017, 01:21:47 PM
Gee looks like Icom is allowing  $1000 trade in for a 7300 on a 7610.  Just like they followed Flex into SDR I guess they are following Flex into creative financing.

73 W9OY


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W7TRP on November 17, 2017, 01:52:54 PM
Gee looks like Icom is allowing  $1000 trade in for a 7300 on a 7610.  Just like they followed Flex into SDR I guess they are following Flex into creative financing.

73 W9OY

Do not know if that is Icom or GP doing that, but just the same; "Ladies and Gentlemen, let the gloves come off!"

W7TRP


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VE3WGO on November 17, 2017, 02:17:26 PM
It would be nice if the Sherwood receiver test listing were sortable by different columns, kind of like the way that eHam reviews are sortable by whichever column you prefer.  I laboriously once long ago transferred the listing to Excel and used the spreadsheet tools to do various sorts and filters of the data, but it takes a while to do that, the transfer is not efficient, and the Excel version is useful for only a short while since the online listing keeps getting updated over time.  If I knew how to use Python I could write a script to extract and create my own easy to manipulate listing from it I suppose.

Not everybody needs a receiver that has high rejection of another station just 2 kHz away.  Sometimes we just need that high dynamic range for signals that are 20 kHz or 100 kHz away, such as when there is a powerful local station up the band.  But not always 2 kHz away.

One thing that confuses me about the Sherwood database is that some radios are listed multiple times, often with very different performance results, but with added notes that say things like "hardware updated" or "2nd sample" etc, and it's hard to know if Sherwood did those mods or it represents some kind of later production release of the same radio.

All in all, I am very happy that Sherwood has meticulously tested and documented all of these radios for us!  I just hope that someday there might be a sortable version available.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0YQ on November 17, 2017, 02:32:33 PM
NC0B provides a great service to the amateur community, but I agree that the 2KHz close in dynamic range metric has now gotten blown completely out of proportion.  Maybe if I had towers and stacks like K3LR I'd be more concerned, but for most ops it's silly to rank justification by that number alone.

Icom - call me if you'll offer the $1000 trade in allowance on my Drake TR7.  Still a top-5 100KHz blocking dynamic range rig by the way.   :D 


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K8AC on November 17, 2017, 03:09:15 PM
VE3WGO: Don't know if this works with Excel, but works fine with Open Office spreadsheet:  I went to the Sherwood listing, drug the mouse over the first 10 rows or so, hit the copy key, went to the spreadsheet with cursor on the first cell, hit the paste key.  With a few minutes of trimming out the unnecessary stuff, such as the Notes indicators, you have the spreadsheet and can sort it any way you wish.  Just tried it again and it works fine.

73, Floyd - K8AC


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 17, 2017, 07:19:36 PM
Hey guys,

I've just completed a video overview of the IC-7610 menu structure, with commentary on the various settings and features.

Its quite long at almost 1 hour, so its still uploading but should be available soon at: https://youtu.be/0m1XzUtZt8E (https://youtu.be/0m1XzUtZt8E)

At the end of the video is an example of strong signal received audio if anyone is interested, and it sounds almost identical to listening to the radio itself.

Thanks to everyone who has supported me in making these videos!  They seem popular, so I will be refining my setup and covering more radios in the future!

Please let me know what you'd like covered, and which radios you're interested in me reviewing.

73,

Jarrad

PS.  Can't wait to hear some of the first US owners thoughts on the radio.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KC1BMD on November 17, 2017, 08:38:31 PM
HRO and DX Engineering are saying December delivery, so it sounds like a few weeks before shipments start in US.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 19, 2017, 02:46:21 AM
Hey All,

I've just recorded a quick video demonstrating how the band scope works on the IC-7610; you can find it here:

https://youtu.be/q1T0vcvlN7E (https://youtu.be/q1T0vcvlN7E)

I demonstrate all the different configurations, as well as covering a few 'gotchas' as well as finding what looks to be a bug!

I'll be putting up a video showing PSK31 operation with a keyboard soon too :)

73 all, and thanks for the support!

Jarrad VK3BL


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VK3BL on November 19, 2017, 04:25:55 AM
Dear fellow Hams :)

I've just made a video demonstrating the IC-7610's PSK31 decoder and encoder!  Chris VK1CT was kind enough to have a sked with me, and his Android controlled FT-817 does a great job, as does the IC-7610.

Check it out here: https://youtu.be/QLVVWaktUrY

It really was a lot of fun; PSK31 is a great mode and I hope it makes a comeback when band conditions improve :)

73,

Jarrad VK3BL


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NN2X on November 19, 2017, 05:55:27 AM
About pricing....How about comparing the ICOM 7610 (4K) with the ICOM 7700 (7K)

But there is no comparison chart...It could be that the ICOM 7610 is better at least with the RMDR specs..

Here is the graph comparison, (No comparing of 1COM 7700) / But has the the others ICOM rigs to compare against the ICOM 7610
 
http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7610/main.html


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2DTS on November 19, 2017, 06:21:07 AM
A very nice looking radio.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KW4CQ on November 19, 2017, 08:45:34 AM
Hey guys,

I've just completed a video overview of the IC-7610 menu structure, with commentary on the various settings and features.

Its quite long at almost 1 hour, so its still uploading but should be available soon at: https://youtu.be/0m1XzUtZt8E (https://youtu.be/0m1XzUtZt8E)

At the end of the video is an example of strong signal received audio if anyone is interested, and it sounds almost identical to listening to the radio itself.

Thanks to everyone who has supported me in making these videos!  They seem popular, so I will be refining my setup and covering more radios in the future!

Please let me know what you'd like covered, and which radios you're interested in me reviewing.

73,

Jarrad

PS.  Can't wait to hear some of the first US owners thoughts on the radio.

Jarrad, you have a great talent for producing very informative Youtube videos featuring the IC-7610.  Please keep up this valuable effort.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 19, 2017, 11:11:06 AM
About pricing....How about comparing the ICOM 7610 (4K) with the ICOM 7700 (7K)

But there is no comparison chart...It could be that the ICOM 7610 is better at least with the RMDR specs..

Here is the graph comparison, (No comparing of 1COM 7700) / But has the the others ICOM rigs to compare against the ICOM 7610
 
http://www.ab4oj.com/icom/ic7610/main.html

I'm not sure why you would even want to do that.  The IC-7700 is selling now at right around $5900.00 and change.  It was a contest radio that competed with the FTdx5000 but it is an old design and while still a very good radio, not the same thing as the IC-7610.  It is actually closer to the IC-7600 in terms of performance.  The IC-7610 is much better at close spaced (2KHZ) rejection of strong signals, I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place.   Digital signals are derived using a quadrature sampling detector that samples and quantizes the incoming signal, the I and Q bit streams are derived from the samples, there is no heterodyne mixing taking place.

Anyway, I think Icom is just trying to sell the rest of the 7700's and I don't know if they are still even producing them.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 19, 2017, 01:38:58 PM

The IC-7700 is selling now at right around $5900.00 and change.

  It is actually closer to the IC-7600 in terms of performance.  

I never understood why Icom made the IC-7700. It was not much better than the 7600 in performance and the 7700 lacks Dual Watch or a second RX, a huge mistake for Icom. Who wants a high dollar $6000 radio without 2RX or Dual Watch? No One??

Yes the cheaper 7600 does have Dual Watch..

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 19, 2017, 06:32:24 PM
HRO and DX Engineering are saying December delivery, so it sounds like a few weeks before shipments start in US.


The newest "updated" shipping date (via DX Engineering) I have is 12/15/17.

Then again, it was October/November 2017, then February 2018, then 11/21/17, then "the last week of November/first week of December", now 12/15/17...so who knows? :D

We see them when we see them...



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VE3WGO on November 19, 2017, 07:24:02 PM

I never understood why Icom made the IC-7700. It was not much better than the 7600 in performance and the 7700 lacks Dual Watch or a second RX, a huge mistake for Icom. Who wants a high dollar $6000 radio without 2RX or Dual Watch? No One??

Yes the cheaper 7600 does have Dual Watch..

Stan K9IUQ

Stan, three differences from the IC-7610 that I'm aware of, aside from having just a single Rx, are that the IC-7700 has a 200 Watt (48 volts) transmitter PA, an internal power supply, and 4 antenna ports (in addition to the 2 Rx antenna ports).  I suppose it caters to a different set of users.

73, Ed VE3WGO



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 19, 2017, 09:39:15 PM
VK3BL: How well does the 7610 hear on the LW and MW broadcast bands?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6RZ on November 20, 2017, 03:57:35 AM
I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place.

RMDR (Reciprocal Mixing Dynamic Range) is a phase noise test, not a mixer test. It fully applies to SDR architectures and compares to analog architectures on an apples to apples basis. Direct sampling usually does pretty well on RMDR, since it's only a function of the cleanliness of the ADC and DDS clocks and not multiple analog oscillators. Note that the Sherwood table is ranked on third order IMD dynamic range, not RMDR.

Digital signals are derived using a quadrature sampling detector that samples and quantizes the incoming signal, the I and Q bit streams are derived from the samples, there is no heterodyne mixing taking place.

There is no quadrature sampling detector in a direct sampling architecture. That's used in the direct conversion architecture. In direct sampling, a single ADC converts from RF to digital samples and then a DDC (Digital Down Converter) converts to I and Q. A DDC is essentially a digital mixer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_down_converter

In the IC-7300 direct sampling architecture, they're using the usual DDC (the first two mixers, 90 degree phase shifter and DDS) and then they get a little creative with an image reject mixer to convert complex (IQ) samples back to real samples for their legacy TI DSP chip.

In the FPGA, the mixers are implemented with multipliers. But all mixers, even analog ones are multipliers. That's why the schematic symbol for all mixers is a circle with an X inside of it (like 9 X 7 = 63).

(http://www.w6rz.net/rxblocks.png)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2RJ on November 20, 2017, 09:26:10 AM

I never understood why Icom made the IC-7700. It was not much better than the 7600 in performance and the 7700 lacks Dual Watch or a second RX, a huge mistake for Icom. Who wants a high dollar $6000 radio without 2RX or Dual Watch? No One??

Yes the cheaper 7600 does have Dual Watch..

Stan K9IUQ

K3LR used a bunch of them before switching them out for 7851s.

I guess they are good for a SO2R configuration where you need the performance but do not need the dual watch.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 20, 2017, 09:37:53 AM
I dislike using the term RMDR (Reciprocal Mixer Dynamic Range) for SDR because there is no mixing that takes place.

RMDR (Reciprocal Mixing Dynamic Range) is a phase noise test, not a mixer test. It fully applies to SDR architectures and compares to analog architectures on an apples to apples basis. Direct sampling usually does pretty well on RMDR, since it's only a function of the cleanliness of the ADC and DDS clocks and not multiple analog oscillators. Note that the Sherwood table is ranked on third order IMD dynamic range, not RMDR.

Digital signals are derived using a quadrature sampling detector that samples and quantizes the incoming signal, the I and Q bit streams are derived from the samples, there is no heterodyne mixing taking place.

There is no quadrature sampling detector in a direct sampling architecture. That's used in the direct conversion architecture. In direct sampling, a single ADC converts from RF to digital samples and then a DDC (Digital Down Converter) converts to I and Q. A DDC is essentially a digital mixer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_down_converter

In the IC-7300 direct sampling architecture, they're using the usual DDC (the first two mixers, 90 degree phase shifter and DDS) and then they get a little creative with an image reject mixer to convert complex (IQ) samples back to real samples for their legacy TI DSP chip.

In the FPGA, the mixers are implemented with multipliers. But all mixers, even analog ones are multipliers. That's why the schematic symbol for all mixers is a circle with an X inside of it (like 9 X 7 = 63).

(http://www.w6rz.net/rxblocks.png)

I was talking about the older Flex radios that did direct conversion to baseband for audio processing.  And you are right, Icom does alias the I/Q to 36KHZ for the DSP but it works.  I think they came up with a very creative architecture.  And please keep in mind that it has been a long time since I was involved in radio design.  Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2RJ on November 20, 2017, 09:54:47 AM
Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2WQ on November 20, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.

You may want to take the time to read http://www.ab4oj.com/sdr/sdrtest2.pdf


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 21, 2017, 08:40:23 AM
What I find interesting, from a marketing perspective, is the IC-7610 is set to replace the (currently) $2,000 IC-7600.  At $4,000 (or $3,900), that is twice the price of the radio it's replacing (and it is clearly being marketed as a direct replacement; hence, no new series number).

Has this ever happened before?--where a replacement is double the price of the existing model?

73 de WX0V

First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.

 but lets take a look at the last few years.  How much was the IC-756 PRO III selling for when the $3900.00 IC-7600 replaced it?  How much was the FTDX-1000 Mark V Field selling for when the $3300.00 FTdx-3000 replaced it?   And how about the TS-570D that was selling for $850.00 when it was replaced by the TS-590S for $1800.00

It is interesting to note that in every one of the above, the cost differential was right around a thousand dollars.  Did you post a similar complaing regarding Kenwood or Yaesu?  What was the cost differential when Flex radio replaced the Flex 5000 with the 6000 series?  Wasn't it more than a thousand dollars?  How about when Elecraft brought out the K3?  Now that was an expensive jump from a K2.  Did you post a similar complaint?  I think not.  

What makes this situation any different?  All companies are in business to make a profit, especially publically traded ones.  The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.  You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 21, 2017, 09:14:55 AM
First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.
 

What makes this situation any different?  All companies are in business to make a profit, especially publically traded ones.  The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.  You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.

Actually you can get a Ic-7600 for a little less than $2000. HRO price right now is $1949.... Also you can buy a Icom 7100 for $739 with free Heil mic and cable. I bought a 7100 several years and paid $1500 and sold it a few years later for $1000.

Old models (old models of ANYTHING) on the way out are always going to be much cheaper than new models fresh to the market. I really do not understand why some hams seem so agitated about it. It is nothing new.

Of course much of the whining is Crybaby Flex Lovers (and Closet Flex Lovers) trying to take Icom into the mud since the Flexradio new Models are no where to be seen even tho they were promised in October. I believe they worry that maybe some Hams sitting on the fence about the new Ugly Knob Flexradio models may contemplate buying the 7600.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0UA on November 21, 2017, 09:29:50 AM
I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one :)

I have Rugers, Smith and Wesson, Winchesters, Remingtons, Mossberg, Kahr, Sig, Glock.  Does that make me bad?  Or just not "brand crazy"?  You decide. 


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 21, 2017, 10:07:00 AM
Of course much of the whining is Crybaby Flex Lovers (and Closet Flex Lovers) trying to take Icom into the mud since the Flexradio new Models are no where to be seen even tho they were promised in October. I believe they worry that maybe some Hams sitting on the fence about the new Ugly Knob Flexradio models may contemplate buying the 7600.

To each his own. Some guys like Icom, others are die-hard Yaesu fans, and others like Flex. For my tastes, the recent stuff to come out of Japan, Inc. has been ultimately boring. Just rehashes of the same old, same old stuff. It may be a little different under the hood than the last model, but not by much, even years after the previous model hit the market. I want to see some real innovation and the conservative Japanese are not likely to provide it.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 21, 2017, 10:21:03 AM
I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one :)

I have Rugers, Smith and Wesson, Winchesters, Remingtons, Mossberg, Kahr, Sig, Glock.  Does that make me bad?  Or just not "brand crazy"?  You decide. 

Well, at least you own a Sig and a Ruger. ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0YQ on November 21, 2017, 10:36:29 AM
I guess one question I would have is since it seems that Flex makes some great radios, and Icom makes some great radios, why do we have to be in "one camp" or another?  Why can't we like them all?  Why do people have such strong opinion about brands?  I presently own a Chevy and a Chrysler.  I have owned many fine Ford's through the years too.  I own Icom and Yaesu radios now, and have owned many fine Kenwoods in years past also. I have never owned a Flex, but I sure wouldn't mind having one :)


Why on earth would anyone drive anything other than Toyota?   ;D

Joking aside I agree with you.  I like seeing different manufacturers push the state of the art envelope.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 21, 2017, 10:57:43 AM
All ">" by KA4DPO

>First of all your statement about the IC-7600 price is slightly misleading, they are selling out right now at $2679.00, not $2000.0.


As K9IUQ pointed out, the IC-7600 is actually priced below $2,000 at multiple locations.  However, DX Engineering and Universal show them as no longer available.


>Did you post a similar complaing [SIC] regarding Kenwood or Yaesu?


My original post that you quoted was not a complaint.  I was questioning the pricing strategy of the radio; would a direct replacement that was double the price of the existing model be successful?

Also, by many accounts, buyers were expecting a $3,500 (or even less) price tag, and it increased by $400.  How would they react to that?  I was disappointed...that $400 would go for accessories; like a monitor for the crappy 800 x 480 output.  ;D

As to Elecraft, Kenwood or Yaesu, although they are fine brands (as are Flex, and others), I am not interested in them.  I am interested in Icom.  So no, I did not post about them.


>The automobile industry brings out new models every year and they almost always
>cost thousands more than your last years model is worth.


Yes, but can you cite an example where a direct replacement automobile was double the price of the discounted existing model?  If a 2017 Chevrolet Impala was say, $25K, would a theoretical 2018 model, with 10mpg better fuel economy and 100 more hp, sell as well as the previous model at $45K, or do buyers pass?


>You want one?  Buy it.  Price too high for you?  Don't buy it, simple as that.

 
Absolutely!  I cannot agree with you more.  I have made my choice and am waiting for delivery of the IC-7610 (note; I pre-ordered mine in December 2016, so it's rather difficult to call me an Icom hater).  Did you also order one?

Good discussion...73! de WX0V

P.S.  I own Glock and Smith & Wesson...Gibson and Fender...but Coke, not Pepsi... ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 21, 2017, 12:12:15 PM
To each his own. Some guys like Icom, others are die-hard Yaesu fans, and others like Flex.

Jerry, I like em all, Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom. I even got a TYT DMR radio. I will not publicly admit about that Baofeng in the drawer..  :D

Well maybe I do not Flexradios but I have good reasons to not like them.   ;)
It is not the radios I dislike, it is the Owners and Company's Attitude I dislike.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2RJ on November 21, 2017, 12:18:48 PM
Still, I would rather see a new approach to testing SDRs that does not use RMDR since I don't think it is valid when trying to compare against analog radios.  I suppose in a few years it wont matter anymore.

RMDR is a practical concern for anyone who uses radios in a crowded band. Today radios are designed and built for contesters and DXers. Casual users (rag chewers) don't really need performance. They need features and reliability.

You may want to take the time to read http://www.ab4oj.com/sdr/sdrtest2.pdf

I've seen that a billion times. What is your point?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 21, 2017, 01:12:31 PM
It is not the radios I dislike, it is the Owners and Company's Attitude I dislike.

Yep. I own a Flex-6500 and like it, but don't like many of the practices of he company behind it.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 21, 2017, 02:21:46 PM
My concerns about Flex, or many SDRs, is being tethered to an external computer to use them.  Just last week, my work computer required a re-boot because it got hung-up.  I look at how many times I've had to re-boot a computer over my life.  Not numerous but enough. 

Then I look at how many times I've had to re-boot an Amateur Radio transceiver; zero.

So here's the scenario.  After 10 days of getting crushed by a W6/W7 wall, I finally hear:

P5DX: WX0V 5NN

Finally!  I got through!  An ATNO!  YES!

I go to send my reply and....yep...you got it (knowing my luck)...the computer locks up!

P5DX: WX0V 5NN

Elevated panic at WX0V

P5DX: WX0V 5NN

Total panic and desperation at WX0V

P5DX: NIL P5DX UP

WX0V re-boots computer and tries again, but P5DX's signal has faded.  WX0V grabs aforementioned firearms and fills computer and SDR full of holes.  Police are called.  Jail time.  Big fine.  Expensive repair bill.  Story in QST.  Forced to drink Pepsi.  Oy...

That scenario doesn't mean it would be Flex's or any other radio software that seized the computer; it could be anything.  Plus, to be balanced here, any radio could malfunction.  However, needing an external computer to run the radio adds one more piece that could fail.

Regarding the incipient "M" models from Flex, which partially eliminates the need for an external computer, I simply find them unattractive.  If they had more of a modern look (i.e. similar to an IC-7610), I would certainly consider one.

73 de WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 21, 2017, 02:54:11 PM
My concerns about Flex, or many SDRs, is being tethered to an external computer to use them.  Just last week, my work computer required a re-boot because it got hung-up.  I look at how many times I've had to re-boot a computer over my life.  Not numerous but enough. 

Then I look at how many times I've had to re-boot an Amateur Radio transceiver; zero.

So here's the scenario.  After 10 days of getting crushed by a W6/W7 wall, I finally hear:

P5DX: WX0V 5NN

Finally!  I got through!  An ATNO!  YES!

I go to send my reply and....yep...you got it (knowing my luck)...the computer locks up!

P5DX: WX0V 5NN

Not a problem with a Flex-6000, because even if the computer locks up the rig will continue working--just send your reply with your paddle and you're good. The Flex-5000, 3000, and 1500 are a different story--in that same scenario you'd be hosed.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 21, 2017, 05:22:57 PM
Quote
I go to send my reply and....yep...you got it (knowing my luck)...the computer locks up!

I have good news for you, and you're luckier than you think, it was a pirate. ;D

Now go get an IC-7610, actually two, and be ready for 3Z9DX activation. ::)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on November 21, 2017, 07:21:20 PM
Quote
I go to send my reply and....yep...you got it (knowing my luck)...the computer locks up!

I have good news for you, and you're luckier than you think, it was a pirate. ;D

Now go get an IC-7610, actually two, and be ready for 3Z9DX activation. ::)


Now that, sir, is an excellent post!  Quite Alex Lifeson-like...I laughed heartily when I read it.  Well played!

Yeah, you're probably right...it was Slim...or Romeo...   ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 22, 2017, 05:06:58 AM
Neither HRO, DX Engineering, or any other vendor shows availability of the IC-7600. Looks like all remaining stock sold out quickly when the 7610 was announced at $3,900....enough of a price difference to pull the trigger on a new 7600 (at $1,949). Now that new 7600's are gone, the value of pristine used ones might get a bump above the recent average asking price of around $1,600-$1,700. Still a good one-receiver radio with great features.

BTW, HRO has a Black Friday price on the IC-7300 at $999 after rebate. Good time to jump on one, or a second one ;).

73, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Bob K7JQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 22, 2017, 05:08:56 AM

BTW, HRO has a Black Friday price on the IC-7300 at $999 after rebate. Good time to jump on one, or a second one ;).

Bob K7JQ

Wow...I only wish we had these types of deals here in Canada.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 22, 2017, 05:23:18 AM

BTW, HRO has a Black Friday price on the IC-7300 at $999 after rebate. Good time to jump on one, or a second one ;).

Bob K7JQ

Wow...I only wish we had these types of deals here in Canada.

Now you can buy four 7300's for the price of one 7610...SO4R for all the 4-eared contesters ;D! Next year, the 7610 will be $2,999 on Black Friday. Count on it ;).


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 22, 2017, 05:25:38 AM

BTW, HRO has a Black Friday price on the IC-7300 at $999 after rebate. Good time to jump on one, or a second one ;).

Bob K7JQ

Wow...I only wish we had these types of deals here in Canada.

Now you can buy four 7300's for the price of one 7610...SO4R for all the 4-eared contesters ;D! Next year, the 7610 will be $2,999 on Black Friday. Count on it ;).

I knew the 7300 was going to be a good radio eventually. If you are right, the same will happen with the 7610. ;D ;D ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VE3WGO on November 22, 2017, 06:24:16 AM
wow.  so the IC-7300 is driving a new price bar for HF transceiver market pricing.  A surprisingly good radio for an amazing price!

When you compare it to the current crop of mid-range receive-only SDRs and add up the price of everything you need to operate one of those in the HF bands, the 7300 gives you the SDR receiver + touch display + computer all built in one portable box for something in the same price ballpark and a ton more reliable than a desktop of separate boxes and cables. I can hear the counterarguments "well, I already have a computer so it's free", which I have found to not be really a fair and true comparison, at least in my case.  And I'm not talking about low end 10-bit dongles.  

In this price analysis and under $1k, the 7300's transmitter and antenna tuner are basically free!

73, Ed VE3WGO



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 22, 2017, 06:28:52 AM
In this price analysis and under $1k, the 7300's transmitter and antenna tuner are basically free!

That's right, Ed.

I hope the ongoing NAFTA re-negotiations will bring that price over here. ::)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6LZC on November 22, 2017, 06:15:48 PM
Wow, there is a Black Friday sale at R & L Electronics for the Icom IC7610.  Check it out, the price is $3,449.95 with free shipping.  There is limit of 2 per customer and good until Nov 27th.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N2DTS on November 22, 2017, 06:26:45 PM
In many ways, the rsp2 is a much better RX then the 7300, and it will run on almost any computer you have around.
RX up to 2 GHz, any filter width you want, sync AM detection, works with at least 3 different programs, for well under $200.00.
The 7300 (and maybe the 7610) rx audio is poor from a fidelity standpoint for those who swl and like good sounding audio.

For $1000.00 the 7300 is a great deal as a ham rig though, how do guys list 756 pro radios for that much or more I do not know.....


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N9AOP on November 23, 2017, 09:44:06 AM
On paper this unit looks great.  Eventually the price should drop to about 3 bills.
Art


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N4UE on November 23, 2017, 10:04:05 AM
Easy for R&L to have a sale, when there is no product... hmmmm

ron
N4UE


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 23, 2017, 10:17:55 AM
Easy for R&L to have a sale, when there is no product... hmmmm

ron
N4UE

I'm sure if you give them your credit card for full payment, you'll get the radio when they arrive. They're not a fly-by-night vendor. Must be a fair amount of pre-order cancellations for that much of a drop. Competitors will probably match the price if you ask.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 23, 2017, 10:21:22 AM
Must be a fair amount of pre-order cancellations for that much of a drop.

Why would that be (cancellations)? I don't remember reading anything bad.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on November 23, 2017, 01:09:59 PM
Must be a fair amount of pre-order cancellations for that much of a drop.

Why would that be (cancellations)? I don't remember reading anything bad.

Nothing bad about the radio. It's just that the higher than expected/anticipated (between $3,200-$3,500) price of $3,900 caught some people off guard, and they decided to wait. Then again, maybe that had nothing to do with the sale price.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on November 23, 2017, 02:36:34 PM
I would like to see what a k3s with 2 receivers and a p3 all decked out with filters would cost?
Bet the 7610 will look like a value pretty quick!


Greg


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K6BRN on November 23, 2017, 04:23:02 PM
There have been many, many IC-7510 order cancellations, with several on-line vendors promising delivery to even new buyers next month.  Also, per earlier threads, the price point already has started to drop.  The $4K price tag was a surprise to most enthusiasts of the IC-7300, which hit a very nice price point and still is (1/4 the price of an IC-7610).

And the IC-7610 has not been thoroughly reviewed and shaken out by the community.

So I'm sure we'll see some pricing changes as supply and demand equalizes, and as the radio proves its merit and value.  Or not.  A good time to wait and see, I think.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KF7DS on November 23, 2017, 11:01:30 PM
I would like to see what a k3s with 2 receivers and a p3 all decked out with filters would cost?
Bet the 7610 will look like a value pretty quick!


Greg

Over $5,000.....


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on November 24, 2017, 08:08:43 AM
I would like to see what a k3s with 2 receivers and a p3 all decked out with filters would cost?
Bet the 7610 will look like a value pretty quick

The 7610 has yet to be proven. The K3 has been, by top contesters and on lots of major DXpeditions. The 7610 has a long way to go before it comes anywhere near equalling that record.

If the 7610 matches or exceeds the performance of the K3, then it will be a bargain at $3800. If not, then it merely will be another also ran.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on November 24, 2017, 09:09:23 AM
I would like to see what a k3s with 2 receivers and a p3 all decked out with filters would cost?
Bet the 7610 will look like a value pretty quick

The 7610 has yet to be proven. The K3 has been, by top contesters and on lots of major DXpeditions. The 7610 has a long way to go before it comes anywhere near equalling that record.

If the 7610 matches or exceeds the performance of the K3, then it will be a bargain at $3800. If not, then it merely will be another also ran.

Assuming the 7610 does become a contesters choice, what then?  Are you going to sell your Elecraft rig?  I doubt it, you probably have way too much invested in it to just unload it.  I used to contest until it got old, same old stuff and I just lost interest. 

I became a casual ham and over the years I have discovered that I can still work DX with almost anything.  A few years ago, just for fun I worked Eastern Europe and Even Burma using my Harvey Wells Bandmaster and an SX-73 receiver.  I even broke a pile on the Burma station.  ;D 

So the state od the art just keeps moving faster and it won't be very long before we will be looking back at the K3S and IC-7610 and remembering how good they were.  Remember, todays top of the heap is tomorrows boat anchor except the boats have to be much smaller.  :D ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on November 24, 2017, 09:21:06 AM
I have discovered that I can still work DX with almost anything.

How True. You do not need a high dollar Elecraft or Flexradio to work DX. I get into countless pileups every year. My radio has little to do with working any DX. What does help is my BIG AL at legal limit, my hilltop location, pileup skill experience, and decent antennas.

Put any modern radio with the above and I will work any DX I want. REALLY, the radio is the least important part of working DX/pileups.

Now contesting, that is a different story.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N8FVJ on November 24, 2017, 10:03:27 AM
Too expensive for me!


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: AC7CW on November 25, 2017, 10:04:53 AM
Too expensive for me!

Same here, I'm assembling an RS-HFIQ right now. I'll drive 5 watts into a loop on the patio and see how that goes. It's just a hobby...


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on November 25, 2017, 10:08:49 AM
It's just a hobby...

No, it's not. Peoples reputation, self esteem, manhood, <add whatever you want here>, are on the line.  ;D

There are those that really take it too seriously. ;)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K0UA on November 25, 2017, 11:28:15 AM
It's just a hobby...

No, it's not. Peoples reputation, self esteem, manhood, <add whatever you want here>, are on the line.  ;D

There are those that really take it too seriously. ;)

"it is all just fun and games until someone loses an eye".  :)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on December 04, 2017, 02:23:12 PM
For those of you who did an early pre-order of the IC-7610 at DX Engineering, they got a few of them in, and those units are shipping today.

From what I understand, Gigiparts did some sort of drop-ship directly from Icom to the end-users who ordered early.  I am not sure of all of the details there; I know some W6/W7 customers have their rigs already.

So, we shall find out soon enough if the radio meets the hype.

73 de WX0V


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 04, 2017, 05:18:12 PM
There is an ad on qth.com right now for an Icom 7610 in an unopened box for $5200.00 FIRM plus shipping
Just a pic of a box, the moderators will take the ad down soon.

Will some ham buy it? I doubt it, the ad (and Ham) seem to have an attitude in addition to a very high markup in price. The ad states anyone being a jerk by email will have the email posted on QRZ.com. Well, YOU ARE A JERK, go ahead re-post on QRZ.com. Make sure you get my call right- K9IUQ   LMAO

Hams screwing hams, imagine that.....

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on December 04, 2017, 06:47:41 PM
There is an ad on qth.com right now for an Icom 7610 in an unopened box for $5200.00 FIRM plus shipping
Just a pic of a box, the moderators will take the ad down soon.

Will some ham buy it? I doubt it, the ad (and Ham) seem to have an attitude in addition to a very high markup in price. The ad states anyone being a jerk by email will have the email posted on QRZ.com. Well, YOU ARE A JERK, go ahead re-post on QRZ.com. Make sure you get my call right- K9IUQ   LMAO

Hams screwing hams, imagine that.....

Stan K9IUQ


Stan, that's a good find.  I wish I could have seen it.  Did you grab a screen capture of it? 

Actually, I think QTH should have kept the ad up there...just for entertainment purposes.  If someone wanted to pay that much, then that's their call.  I doubt many would, however...

Lack of supply creates interesting pricing.  Take the new Nikon D850 DSLR.  When it recently hit the market, most sellers had them around $3,300 or so, but you could not find them anywhere (they are still sold out in many places).  However, at least 1 on eBay SOLD for $6,000 .  Yes, that's right...not just listed, but actually sold for almost double (there are currently ads still selling them for that much). 

Me?  I'll just stick with my lowly D810... :D

Hmmm...on second thought...Bouvet is coming up...I could use a new tower and beam...

We'll start the bidding for my incipient 7610 at $9,000...bid today and I'll include FREE shipping!  ;D

73 de WX0V



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 05, 2017, 03:51:30 AM
Actually, I think QTH should have kept the ad up there...just for entertainment purposes. 

My fingers got ahead of my brain last night, it was QRZ.com.
The ad is still there this  morning for your entertainment:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/icom-7610-new-in-box-shipping-box-never-opened.590781/

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on December 05, 2017, 07:19:14 AM
Actually, I think QTH should have kept the ad up there...just for entertainment purposes. 

My fingers got ahead of my brain last night, it was QRZ.com.
The ad is still there this  morning for your entertainment:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/icom-7610-new-in-box-shipping-box-never-opened.590781/

Stan K9IUQ

Thanks Stan, that was interesting to say the least.  He warned people not to call him a jerk. ;D  That would be an understatement, the guy is a one day wonder no code general with a vanity call and an attitude.  What can you say?

 If someone buys that radio for the price he is asking it will only reinforce my belief that there are some total idiots in this hobby.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WX0V on December 05, 2017, 07:39:20 AM
Actually, I think QTH should have kept the ad up there...just for entertainment purposes. 

My fingers got ahead of my brain last night, it was QRZ.com.
The ad is still there this  morning for your entertainment:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/icom-7610-new-in-box-shipping-box-never-opened.590781/

Stan K9IUQ


Very nice. 

I see it's listed as "canceled" but it was still on the site in all its glory.  I took a screen grab for my personal enjoyment.

It still doesn't hold a candle to what's going on with the Nikon D850, but is good entertainment; especially the attitude.  You cannot accuse him of being bashful. :D

Thanks for the find!


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: WD4ELG on December 05, 2017, 08:04:52 PM
That inflated demand reminds me of the "Tickle Me Elmo" insanity 15 years ago.  Artificially inflated demand and a mental perception of scarcity brings out the savage hunter-gatherer mentality and the savage gotta-have-it-at-all-costs approach.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KF7DS on December 05, 2017, 08:55:52 PM
Actually, I think QTH should have kept the ad up there...just for entertainment purposes. 

My fingers got ahead of my brain last night, it was QRZ.com.
The ad is still there this  morning for your entertainment:

https://forums.qrz.com/index.php?threads/icom-7610-new-in-box-shipping-box-never-opened.590781/

Stan K9IUQ

Thanks Stan, that was interesting to say the least.  He warned people not to call him a jerk. ;D  That would be an understatement, the guy is a one day wonder no code general with a vanity call and an attitude.  What can you say?

 If someone buys that radio for the price he is asking it will only reinforce my belief that there are some total idiots in this hobby.

He may be a jerk but stop the ‘no code’ wonder stuff. I got my license after the code requirement was dropped also...does that make me inferior to those that got got their license before? And, btw, the only mode I use is cw.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K6AER on December 06, 2017, 06:42:11 PM
Why not buy the Flex 6400M for $2995? Two SDR receivers. Twice the screen size and much more.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on December 06, 2017, 08:28:29 PM
Why not buy the Flex 6400M for $2995? Two SDR receivers. Twice the screen size and much more.

OK well please be sure and let us know when they will be available for purchase.  Icom 7610's are being delivered now, two receivers and no waiting. ;D    Flex is still dragging their feet waiting for funding.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 06, 2017, 10:45:08 PM
Why not buy the Flex 6400M for $2995? Two SDR receivers. Twice the screen size and much more.

OK well please be sure and let us know when they will be available for purchase.  Icom 7610's are being delivered now, two receivers and no waiting. ;D 

Sometimes good things are worth waiting for.  ;D


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 04:51:29 AM
Sometimes good things are worth waiting for.  ;D

Flex Lovers HAVE to wait,wait,wait. It is what they have to do. Wait until the new radios get funded by Reservation $$$. When Flex gets enuff $$$ they make a few. Then when those are gone, they start new Reservation funding for the next batch of radios. Fund,wait,Fund,wait. Or Wait, fund,Wait, fund.  :D :D

After a Flex Owner actually gets a radio, then they get to wait for software updates to get a full functioning radio.

Wait is an excellent and well used word by all Flex Lovers.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 08:23:10 AM
Sometimes good things are worth waiting for.  ;D

Flex Lovers HAVE to wait,wait,wait. It is what they have to do. Wait until the new radios get funded by Reservation $$$. When Flex gets enuff $$$ they make a few. Then when those are gone, they start new Reservation funding for the next batch of radios. Fund,wait,Fund,wait. Or Wait, fund,Wait, fund.  :D :D


Well, at least Flex and Tesla have one thing in common then...

Quote
After a Flex Owner actually gets a radio, then they get to wait for software updates to get a full functioning radio. You don't have any valid arguments anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

Wait is an excellent and well used word by all Flex Lovers.

I haven't waited for any new functionality for my Flex-6500 for years. The only thing not there when I bought it was waterfall, and that was added in an update two weeks later. Everything else was there and it worked. You don't really have a valid argument anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KA4DPO on December 07, 2017, 08:42:48 AM
Sometimes good things are worth waiting for.  ;D

Flex Lovers HAVE to wait,wait,wait. It is what they have to do. Wait until the new radios get funded by Reservation $$$. When Flex gets enuff $$$ they make a few. Then when those are gone, they start new Reservation funding for the next batch of radios. Fund,wait,Fund,wait. Or Wait, fund,Wait, fund.  :D :D


Well, at least Flex and Tesla have one thing in common then...

Quote
After a Flex Owner actually gets a radio, then they get to wait for software updates to get a full functioning radio. You don't have any valid arguments anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

Wait is an excellent and well used word by all Flex Lovers.

I haven't waited for any new functionality for my Flex-6500 for years. The only thing not there when I bought it was waterfall, and that was added in an update two weeks later. Everything else was there and it worked. You don't really have a valid argument anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

WHAAATT???  You paid that much for a digital radio and it didn't even come with a waterfall???  Shut the front door, Stan is right.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 09:26:56 AM
WHAAATT???  You paid that much for a digital radio and it didn't even come with a waterfall???  Shut the front door, Stan is right.

Here is some more K9IUQ hyerbole for all the FLex Lovers:

I forgot to mention that with Flexradio you also get the Privilege of paying for software updates. How much is $mart$dr Version 2.0??

"SmartSDR v2.0.19 is a General Availability (GA) release containing new features and fixes for SmartSDR for Windows, SmartSDR for Maestro, SmartSDR CAT and DAX."

All owners of the Limited Edition (LE) FLEX-6700 and FLEX-6500 SDRs or radios sold after May 19, 2017, have been pre-authorized for SmartSDR v2 and do not require the purchase of a SmartSDR v2 license.  To run SmartSDR v2 on all other radios requires the purchase of a software license for the radio.

Can anyone tell me how much Icom charges for software/firmware updates? I remember the great Version 2 update from Icom for my IC-7600. Don't remember how much it cost me...   :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
 

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 09:36:34 AM
Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

Another Great Feature of owning a Flexradio is you get to bond with your computer. Every Time Microsoft updates Win 10 you will get the opportunity to figure how to get your Flexradio working again..    :D :D :D :D :D

Unfortunately this is not hyerbole. Yeah, I read the official Flexradio Community Forums from time to time for jollys. Makes me feel good that I no longer own a Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 10:08:10 AM
Another Great Feature of owning a Flexradio is you get to bond with your computer. Every Time Microsoft updates Win 10 you will get the opportunity to figure how to get your Flexradio working again..    :D :D :D :D :D

SDR rigs requiring a computer aren't for everyone, and particularly not for the computer illiterate.

Of all the Windows updates I've installed over the years, I've never had a single issue with SmartSDR breaking. Not one. And I've done some major Windows upgrades too--7 -> 8 -> 8.1 -> 10.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 10:24:42 AM
Of all the Windows updates I've installed over the years, I've never had a single issue with SmartSDR breaking. Not one.

I am going to start calling you Lucky Jerry. First you say you only waited 2 weeks to get that waterfall update. You neglected to mention that the waterfall update took forever to come and early 6000 series owners had to wait, wait, wait. But Lucky Jerry only waited 2 weeks.

Now Lucky Jerry never has a problem with Windows and his Flexradio.  On the first page of the Flexradio Community Forum I see a post: Have to manually uninstall/reinstall parts of SDR about 3 times a year after Windows update.  This is only one post of many about Windows and SmartSdr. Of course Bulldog Tim puts all the blame on Windows....

You are one Lucky Jerry..  ;)

You don't hyperbole do ya???

Stan K9IUQ




Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: AC7CW on December 07, 2017, 11:07:31 AM
Sometimes good things are worth waiting for.  ;D

Flex Lovers HAVE to wait,wait,wait. It is what they have to do. Wait until the new radios get funded by Reservation $$$. When Flex gets enuff $$$ they make a few. Then when those are gone, they start new Reservation funding for the next batch of radios. Fund,wait,Fund,wait. Or Wait, fund,Wait, fund.  :D :D

I don't pay a lot of mind to this kind of thread but a Flex with [possibly indefinite, who really knows?] wait for the... wait... hold it....drumroll.... Waterfall? Wow...


Well, at least Flex and Tesla have one thing in common then...

Quote
After a Flex Owner actually gets a radio, then they get to wait for software updates to get a full functioning radio. You don't have any valid arguments anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

Wait is an excellent and well used word by all Flex Lovers.

I haven't waited for any new functionality for my Flex-6500 for years. The only thing not there when I bought it was waterfall, and that was added in an update two weeks later. Everything else was there and it worked. You don't really have a valid argument anymore, Stan, so all you're left with is hyperbole.

WHAAATT???  You paid that much for a digital radio and it didn't even come with a waterfall???  Shut the front door, Stan is right.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 12:20:27 PM
I am going to start calling you Lucky Jerry. First you say you only waited 2 weeks to get that waterfall update. You neglected to mention that the waterfall update took forever to come and early 6000 series owners had to wait, wait, wait. But Lucky Jerry only waited 2 weeks.

How many years did it take Icom to add waterfall to the IC-7600? Seven? Eight?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 01:54:09 PM
How many years did it take Icom to add waterfall to the IC-7600? Seven? Eight?

Like you, I "could" say I waited 2 weeks for my Icom waterfall.  :) :)   But that would be a lie. I did not buy my 7600 until after the Version 2 firmware upgrade. In fact the Icom 7600 ver 2 upgrade was one reason I bought the 7600.  IOW I did not wait for the waterfall because the radio I bought already had Version 2.

What you as a Flex Lover fail to mention is Icom NEVER promised a waterfall on the 7600. In fact most 7600 owners were very surprised that it happened. Icom does not try to sell promises.

Now, Flexradio promised a waterfall from the beginning of the 6000 series. They promised ability to remote also, among many other features. My memory is not great (as W6UV reminded me - I am old) and I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong. But it seems the Flexradio waterfall promise took a couple of years to achieve and the remote even longer.

For your entertainment and memory refreshment , a nice discussion about the lack of a 6000 waterfall:

http://www.eham.net/ehamforum/smf/index.php/topic,90145.0.html

What is really interesting is the second post from memory challenged W6UV:  "That really sucks! I wonder what their justification for this could be?"

Not only that but Lucky Jerry's comments in that thread are quite different than what he spouts today.

LMAO
Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 02:59:53 PM
Not only that but Lucky Jerry's comments in that thread are quite different than what he spouts today.

Perhaps that's because I got over my ill feelings towards Flex as a result of owning a 5000A. My current attitude towards Flex comes from having owned a Flex-6500 and using it as my primary HF rig for the last 3-1/2 years. I've owned top-of-the-line rigs from all of the major companies (Yaesu, Icom, Kenwood, TenTec, and Elecraft), but the Flex-6500 is the best HF rig I've ever used. It has been problem-free from the day I bought it and the only issues I've had were the result of configuration issues that were my fault.



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N6YFM on December 07, 2017, 03:10:04 PM
Stay Calm, Drink Wine....

Each of us likes a different brand radio.   Each of us accepts or makes compromises
in choosing which brand radio we like.  And for different reasons.
And just like we each choose a different brand and color car, they all seem to get
us to the store and back home just fine.  

I have a Yaesu HF rig and an Icom HF rig.   I am thinking about maybe trying
a Flex 6600 later part of next year, maybe.   They are all very different.

We don't really need to get mad at each other, and fight over something silly
like choosing an Icom or a Flex, or whatever.  We don't really have to act like
politicians and fight about anything and everything, just because we can.
(Although, full disclaimer, yes, I have occasionally done that :-)   Guilty as charged!)

I think if we line up a Kenwood, Icom, Yaesu, Elecraft, Flex, Alinco, Drake, Collins,
you would see wide ranging differences in strengths, weaknesses, performance, and features.
Some can pull out a weak DX better, but all of them can get you on the air for something :-)
Just like a good photographer can pick up ANY camera and make a better photo than an
amateur (but would still prefer their favorite full featured Pro camera), a radio operator can
probably have "some" amount of fun with almost any rig above, entry level to contest grade.

But if you ask me (or anyone) what they prefer, or would wish for, each of us will have a different new,
high end, super-fan-dangled bells, whistles and lights (Coffee dispenser built in) favorite choice.

So again, why fight with each other over this?   If we all liked the exact same thing, we would
be SO VERY BORING it would just kill me.   Listen with interest and curiosity about the changes,
differences,  and choices we each make.   We can learn something by listening, rather than fighting.

Stan will NEVER buy another Flex.  (And in his case, he is right)
Neal will NEVER buy a GM car or truck.  (Or anything that says MFJ)  And I'd like to think that I am right :-)

Who cares!  :-)   No problem.  No worries.

I used to think that the top 3 contributors to death in this world were;
Religion
Politics
Disease

We don't have to add "Un-Caged Angry Torch-carrying Ham Radio Operators" to the above list :-)

My observations;
A Yaesu buyer likes mature traditional superhet design, great receiver performance, but hates the menu system.
An Icom buyer likes a modern SDR design in a compact box, fully stand-alone with knobs that can be used like a SuperHet, or with a computer.
A Kenwood Buyer likes...  Um...   ah...,  The audio?    A 20 year old SuperHet design?   Hates Waterfalls?   I'm reaching....
An Anan buyer likes the hardware features, and loves to program software, and work on evolving features themselves.
A Flex buyer likes the hardware features, likes using a computer for it all, likes the remote Maestro, and is OK waiting
for slowly evolving factory-supplied software features.

The point is;   Some buyer is buying each of the above rigs, so there are many people in each category that have decided
they are just fine with the trade-offs.   So what.   The only thing that matters is if each of them is having fun.
If not, they need to try a different rig, or add another hobby.

You can yell until you are blue in the face and exhausted, but you will never convince me
to want YOUR brand, model, and color car.   But if that one makes YOU happy, then I am happy too.

Cheers


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 03:17:50 PM
The point is;   Some buyer is buying each of the above rigs, so there are many people in each category that have decided
they are just fine with the trade-offs.

And many, if not all, of those companies would be out of business if they produced products as bad as some people on this forum claim.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 03:57:15 PM
My current attitude towards Flex comes from having owned a Flex-6500

Yes drinking the Flexradio Koolaid will do strange things to the mind.

My current attitude towards Flexradio comes from having to deal with Flexradio employees (I still have their emails) and Flex Owners who have lied to me MANY times. I have no particular problem with their recent radios. Of course I will never own another Flexradio so my experience with their recent radios is limited.

It is the attitude (and business practices) of the company and the attitude of "some" owners that I have issue with.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 07, 2017, 04:02:09 PM
We don't really need to get mad at each other,

I don't get mad at any Flex Lover. In Fact I enjoy talking to them. Jerry, W6UV has been my friend for many years and I still like him. I don't hate or dislike or get mad at anyone over a stupid radio.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on December 07, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
No platform is perfect.

down conversion rigs suffer on 17 and 30 meters.

the second receiver on the ftdx5k is so bad and no one talks about it.

flex software and hardware have issues that are not addressed. You cannot sit next to the rig and use the audio coming out of the computer on cw, you need to port the stereo jack to a speaker, very weird.

ftdx9000 needs about 20db of pre amp to compete with modern day receivers on 6-20m.

elecraft mechanical filters are so tight, brick wall like that the 250hz is not good for search and pounce. need a panadapter/fish finder.

kenwood is heavy into the r and d, all of their products need overhauled fast.

The list of problems goes on and on, yet most of these problems only bother me.

 i have owned a k3, kx3, 590sg, flex6500, ftdx9k, ftdx5k, Anan, ic9100, tentec omni 7, ic7100, , and about 10 more, my opinions are locked.

The ic7851, k3, flex 6k series, Anan100d are the very best of the best in my time of using better radios. You will need nothing if you own one of these.

The ic7851 is the one i would keep if all others had to go, its not the best, but its the best at everything. The receiver is so close to the Anan, it does not matter


Greg ni8r


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VA3VF on December 07, 2017, 06:08:34 PM
No platform is perfect.

Very true!

But to some, it is, while they own it. That changes when the radio changes hands. ::)


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 07, 2017, 07:20:17 PM
No platform is perfect.

The "best" rig hasn't been built yet, and may never be.

I wonder how long it will be before all rigs are digital direct sampling? That seems to be where everything is heading. Icom seems to be the least conservative of the big three Japanese vendors, so it's not surprising they were first out of the gate with the 7300 (and now the 7610). The superheterodyne has been around for almost a hundred years now, but I think it's finally met its match.

I predict that the IC-7852 (or whatever Icom calls it) and the Elecraft K4 will both be direct sampling rigs.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: N1EU on December 08, 2017, 04:14:11 AM

I predict that the  Elecraft K4 will be direct sampling.

Not much of a leap - are you willing to predict whether that K4 will arrive in 2018 or 2028 or ???

Barry N1EU


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 08, 2017, 07:36:43 AM

I predict that the  Elecraft K4 will be direct sampling.

Not much of a leap - are you willing to predict whether that K4 will arrive in 2018 or 2028 or ???

Nope. Elecraft seems to be able to keep their internal development plans closely guarded. The K3 is a decade old now, but the updated K3S is only around two years old, so perhaps the K3 line still has some life left before the K4 is announced (if it ever is). They've also been working on releasing their 1.5KW amp recently, so perhaps that's taken engineering resources away from work on a K3 replacement.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on December 08, 2017, 08:32:30 AM

I predict that the  Elecraft K4 will be direct sampling.

Not much of a leap - are you willing to predict whether that K4 will arrive in 2018 or 2028 or ???

Barry N1EU

It's gonna take a lot of R&D and hardware structural changes for a small company like Elecraft to come out with a competitive SDR based radio in the near future. Going from the K3 to the K3S was mainly software changes, maintaining the same cabinet structure and look, keeping with their outboard P3 panadapter. IMO, in the future, they'll have to incorporate a built-in panadapter to be competitive. Look how long it's taking them to come out with the KPA-1500 amplifier, announced and "in the works" years ago.

I'm certainly not knocking Elecraft...they make great proven performance products. It's just that they aren't able to adapt and change as quickly as the larger world-wide companies. Also strange that we haven't heard from Yaesu and Kenwood regarding future SDR plans. Maybe they're putting their ham radio divisions on the back-burner at this time?

73, Bob K7JQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 08, 2017, 08:36:45 AM
I'm certainly not knocking Elecraft...they make great proven performance products. It's just that they aren't able to adapt and change as quickly as the larger world-wide companies

As far as I know Elecraft doesn't have any significant commercial (non-ham) business like the bigger companies (and Flex) have, so they're unable to subsidize development of new ham rigs with profits from their commercial business.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W7TRP on December 08, 2017, 09:12:32 AM
I'm certainly not knocking Elecraft...they make great proven performance products. It's just that they aren't able to adapt and change as quickly as the larger world-wide companies

As far as I know Elecraft doesn't have any significant commercial (non-ham) business like the bigger companies (and Flex) have, so they're unable to subsidize development of new ham rigs with profits from their commercial business.

It will be hard to beat what a K3S can do in performance that it's current configuration will already do now. Those that own one, and have taken the time to learn to use and appreciate it's capabilities probably really do not care, at this point, what a K4 would really be. Most of the K4 wishers want a "pretty radio" so they can enter it into the ham radio beauty pageant. To make the K3S / P3 into a "Icom type" looking radio would probably put it up in the 7851 price category and no one will want to pay that kind price for it. They already complain about the price of the Elecraft. I'm sure Elecraft is doing just fine.

Gary W7TRP


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on December 08, 2017, 11:09:41 AM
It will be hard to beat what a K3S can do in performance that it's current configuration will already do now. Those that own one, and have taken the time to learn to use and appreciate it's capabilities probably really do not care, at this point, what a K4 would really be. Most of the K4 wishers want a "pretty radio" so they can enter it into the ham radio beauty pageant. To make the K3S / P3 into a "Icom type" looking radio would probably put it up in the 7851 price category and no one will want to pay that kind price for it. They already complain about the price of the Elecraft. I'm sure Elecraft is doing just fine.

Gary W7TRP

I agree...Elecraft is and will continue to do just fine. The K3(S) is especially recognized by contesters and DXers as their go-to radio. Some members in my contest club are experienced, hard-core, world-wide recognized operators (not me ;)), and they mostly use Elecraft K3's and the "S". For years, they have pooh-poohed the usefulness of a panadapter. But the general consensus is now starting to change their opinions. Even the most popular contest logger, N1MM+, has incorporated a spectrum scope/waterfall into their program.

All I'm saying is, IMO, an integrated panadapter and SDR architecture (self-contained knobbed or computer reliant) is the future of ham radio design. Any company that doesn't eventually adapt will lose popularity. I also have to disagree that a "K4" incorporating those features will be anywhere near the 7851 price category. The days of the behemoth 200+ watt radios north of $10K are over.

73, Bob K7JQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on December 08, 2017, 04:29:55 PM
[ [/quote]The days of the behemoth 200+ watt radios north of $10K are over.

73, Bob K7JQ
[/quote]


Bob, i like a classic rig. I dont see me having a shack with out a premium knob rig in place.

I dont agree that radios need to be direct sampling. My recent sale of the flex 6500 was due to the fact it could not compete with Icom 7851 or Anan 100d.

I judge a rig by audio out and ability to hear weak signals. My k3 and ftdx9000 could not hear signals the flex could. And they left too long ago.

Icom has a amazing superhet up conversion design. Equal to the Anan in a single box. The receiver on the Anan is top notch


Greg ni8r


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: KF7DS on December 08, 2017, 10:25:18 PM
Another Great Feature of owning a Flexradio is you get to bond with your computer. Every Time Microsoft updates Win 10 you will get the opportunity to figure how to get your Flexradio working again..    :D :D :D :D :D

SDR rigs requiring a computer aren't for everyone, and particularly not for the computer illiterate.

Of all the Windows updates I've installed over the years, I've never had a single issue with SmartSDR breaking. Not one. And I've done some major Windows upgrades too--7 -> 8 -> 8.1 -> 10.

Honestly, that is very difficult to believe. I really liked my 6300 but sold it because I was spending too much time on the computer fixing issues caused by an MS update and found it annoying. And, I am not computer illiterate- I developed, deployed and maintained web based databases for years. When I turn on the radio, I want it to work.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 08, 2017, 11:23:05 PM
Another Great Feature of owning a Flexradio is you get to bond with your computer. Every Time Microsoft updates Win 10 you will get the opportunity to figure how to get your Flexradio working again..    :D :D :D :D :D

SDR rigs requiring a computer aren't for everyone, and particularly not for the computer illiterate.

Of all the Windows updates I've installed over the years, I've never had a single issue with SmartSDR breaking. Not one. And I've done some major Windows upgrades too--7 -> 8 -> 8.1 -> 10.

Honestly, that is very difficult to believe. I really liked my 6300 but sold it because I was spending too much time on the computer fixing issues caused by an MS update and found it annoying. And, I am not computer illiterate- I developed, deployed and maintained web based databases for years. When I turn on the radio, I want it to work.


You're welcome to believe whatever you want, but you'd be wrong in this case. I have not had any issues with SmartSDR as a result of Windows updates.

What did you buy to replace your 6300?


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K9IUQ on December 09, 2017, 04:26:35 AM
I have not had any issues with SmartSDR as a result of Windows updates.

Honestly, that is very difficult to believe.


Lucky Jerry
is -  Lucky.   One only has to peruse the Official Flex Community Forums to see that many hams have problems with the computer and Smartsdr. These are only the hams that are complaining, for every ham that does complain about it, there are probably 5 hams who say nothing and just deal with it.

Bulldog Tim used to blame the owners computer or the owners lack of computer knowledge for the problems. However that did not appease customers. Now days the Bulldog just blames Microsoft.

When I turn on the radio, I want it to work.

So do the majority of hams. Most hams want a self contained knobbed box that does not need to rely on an external computer.

Stan K9IUQ


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: K7JQ on December 09, 2017, 06:27:52 AM
[
The days of the behemoth 200+ watt radios north of $10K are over.

73, Bob K7JQ
[/quote]


Bob, i like a classic rig. I dont see me having a shack with out a premium knob rig in place.

I dont agree that radios need to be direct sampling. My recent sale of the flex 6500 was due to the fact it could not compete with Icom 7851 or Anan 100d.

I judge a rig by audio out and ability to hear weak signals. My k3 and ftdx9000 could not hear signals the flex could. And they left too long ago.

Icom has a amazing superhet up conversion design. Equal to the Anan in a single box. The receiver on the Anan is top notch


Greg ni8r
[/quote]

Greg,

There will always be *some* demand for the biggest, best, and most expensive radios by those with deep pockets (and those who demand near-perfection). The question becomes whether the manufacturers will deem it feasible to continue to offer them, in light of newer (SDR) technology and lower manufacturing costs. It all depends on quantity of demand.

While I've always enjoyed my (originally $4K) IC-7600, my (now $1.1K) IC-7300 performs as well as, if not better than, the 7600 in all phases. Just as many bells and whistles; easier computer connections; brighter, faster, sharper resolution display. The 7600 is larger, with more convenient knob and button access. I plan on keeping both for now.

It will be interesting to see a performance comparison of the new IC-7610 vs the IC-7851. Icom's only two-receiver radio is now being challenged by a $4K version. And give it another six months to a year, it'll probably be in the $3-3.5K price range. If the performance between the two is really close, how will the demand for the 7851 hold up? Do you think there will be an SDR based IC-7900? With the lower prices and easy integration of modern amplifiers, will a 200 watt radio be feasible anymore? Maybe so, but time will tell.

73 and Happy Holidays,

Bob K7JQ

     


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: VE3WGO on December 09, 2017, 06:46:08 PM
I first will admit I have only tried an IC-7851 at the ham radio store on a triband beam and at a hamfest on a portable vertical.  In both cases, I immediately liked the feel of the tuning, so easy to see the bandscope activity and fine tune signals.  Filters and noise blanker (hamfest was in a very electrically noisy environment) worked so smooth.  The audio quality was absolutely superb.  In the same ham store on an adjacent table was a Flex 6700 setup, equally good at digging out signals, especially so with the point and click on the bandscope display, but for my taste a lot is missing when a silky smooth set of controls is replaced by a (commodity grade) mouse button and wheel.  And there was also a Kenwood TS-990...  now there is a fine radio with a touch screen, several various tuning dial setup options (even a boatanchor shortwave dial format) , dual receivers (I think TS-590SG based) and again, a very nice radio to tune.  I can see how some hams would want to spend some serious money on these top tier of radios, they are luxurious and the 7851 in particular is absolutely stunningly beautiful.

Now, on to the IC-7610.  I noticed that there is a W7 eHam reviewer today that gave the 7610 a 0, yep a zero. Now since the reviewer is American and does not talk about their experience with an actual radio (probably because there aren't any or many 7610s yet in the hands of US hams), I suspect it's just some anti-Icom spammer. They're griping about the external display DVI interface so they give the whole radio a zero.  yep.  I don't think I would slam an entire product because of a minor interface that I don't like, but each to his/her own I guess.  And I suppose he/she doesn't know about interfaces and DVI-HDMI adapters start at 10 bucks at Best Buy or 99 cents on eBay.  Same thing with DVI-VGA or DVI-Displayport adapters. So not matter what kind or vintage of computer monitor you happen to have (even an LCD or LED TV) you can pretty easily drive it with a DVI interface + adapter if needed.  That's why DVI was developed, and HDMI was purposely designed to be capable of displaying DVI digital signals.  So a zero, and not a single word about how the radio performs?  I'm perplexed.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on December 09, 2017, 07:53:42 PM
I first will admit I have only tried an IC-7851 at the ham radio store on a triband beam and at a hamfest on a portable vertical.  In both cases, I immediately liked the feel of the tuning, so easy to see the bandscope activity and fine tune signals.  Filters and noise blanker (hamfest was in a very electrically noisy environment) worked so smooth.  The audio quality was absolutely superb.  In the same ham store on an adjacent table was a Flex 6700 setup, equally good at digging out signals, especially so with the point and click on the bandscope display, but for my taste a lot is missing when a silky smooth set of controls is replaced by a (commodity grade) mouse button and wheel.  And there was also a Kenwood TS-990...  now there is a fine radio with a touch screen, several various tuning dial setup options (even a boatanchor shortwave dial format) , dual receivers (I think TS-590SG based) and again, a very nice radio to tune.  I can see how some hams would want to spend some serious money on these top tier of radios, they are luxurious and the 7851 in particular is absolutely stunningly beautiful.

Now, on to the IC-7610.  I noticed that there is a W7 eHam reviewer today that gave the 7610 a 0, yep a zero. Now since the reviewer is American and does not talk about their experience with an actual radio (probably because there aren't any or many 7610s yet in the hands of US hams), I suspect it's just some anti-Icom spammer. They're griping about the external display DVI interface so they give the whole radio a zero.  yep.  I don't think I would slam an entire product because of a minor interface that I don't like, but each to his/her own I guess.  And I suppose he/she doesn't know about interfaces and DVI-HDMI adapters start at 10 bucks at Best Buy or 99 cents on eBay.  Same thing with DVI-VGA or DVI-Displayport adapters. So not matter what kind or vintage of computer monitor you happen to have (even an LCD or LED TV) you can pretty easily drive it with a DVI interface + adapter if needed.  That's why DVI was developed, and HDMI was purposely designed to be capable of displaying DVI digital signals.  So a zero, and not a single word about how the radio performs?  I'm perplexed.

73, Ed VE3WGO


Ed, you obviously know a good rig from a bad rig.

[
The days of the behemoth 200+ watt radios north of $10K are over.

73, Bob K7JQ


Bob, i like a classic rig. I dont see me having a shack with out a premium knob rig in place.

I dont agree that radios need to be direct sampling. My recent sale of the flex 6500 was due to the fact it could not compete with Icom 7851 or Anan 100d.

I judge a rig by audio out and ability to hear weak signals. My k3 and ftdx9000 could not hear signals the flex could. And they left too long ago.

Icom has a amazing superhet up conversion design. Equal to the Anan in a single box. The receiver on the Anan is top notch


Greg ni8r
[/quote]

Greg,

It will be interesting to see a performance comparison of the new IC-7610 vs the IC-7851. Icom's only two-receiver radio is now being challenged by a $4K version. And give it another six months to a year, it'll probably be in the $3-3.5K price range. If the performance between the two is really close, how will the demand for the 7851 hold up? Do you think there will be an SDR based IC-7900? With the lower prices and easy integration of modern amplifiers, will a 200 watt radio be feasible anymore? Maybe so, but time will tell.

73 and Happy Holidays,

Bob K7JQ

     
[/quote]

Bob, because you have not see the flex side by side with the ic7851, The flex has zero on the icom.
 It will be a challenge for icom to outperform their best rig. its their flaghip for a reason. They gave the 7610 very similar interface because of Ed's comments above.


Greg ni8r   



Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: W6UV on December 09, 2017, 09:14:11 PM
The 7851 is a nice rig. I've used one and like it, but felt it's overpriced for what you get. I'd rather spend that kind of money on antenna systems (I've got about $40K in my latest). One guy near me has a 7851 connected to a G5RV at 20 feet--that's roughly equivalent to running a Ferrari on Coleman lantern fuel.


Title: RE: The Icom IC-7610 USA price is $4,000
Post by: NI8R on December 10, 2017, 08:32:58 AM
The 7851 is a nice rig. I've used one and like it, but felt it's overpriced for what you get. I'd rather spend that kind of money on antenna systems (I've got about $40K in my latest). One guy near me has a 7851 connected to a G5RV at 20 feet--that's roughly equivalent to running a Ferrari on Coleman lantern fuel.


I would expect if you had the means for a 7851, you would have a great antenna system. The above is an anomaly. If he would have had a good mentor , he would know the value of a great antenna.


Greg ni8r