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eHam Forums => Amplifiers => Topic started by: WA4JQS on February 19, 2018, 04:58:27 PM



Title: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA4JQS on February 19, 2018, 04:58:27 PM
My 922A has started acting like the relay is either not closing all the way or the contacts have become dirty / pitted after 25 years of use. could be the spring also. sometimes when i un-key the amp the receive will drop down to about half of what it was on the  950sdx. if i key the amp the receiver will come back up. just to make sure it was not the  950sdx  relay put the amp in standby.. worked fine. with the amp back in line about every 8 or 9th transmission it will drop down again.  What i wonder before i pull the amp out of the console . is RL -1 a plug in relay that i can change or at least clean the contact on ? Does anyone carry a replacement relay ?
Thanks 73
Tony wa4jqs


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: K6AER on February 19, 2018, 05:39:35 PM
The T/R relay is a 110 VDC DPDT open frame relay. You can buy  a replacement from Digikey. Not an easy replacement located next to the tank circuit and is accessible only from the bottom of the amplifier but the hold down nut has to be done from the top. It is a PITA to remove. If you have to clean the contacts just replace the relay. Be carful removing the Choke coil.

You can also use the T/R relay from Harbach Electronics for the SB-220 but the wiring locations will be different and a new mounting hole will have to be added.


Some folks might want to put in a QSK relay. Dick Kessler used to make a kit but I think he is out of the TL-922 business now.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA4JQS on February 19, 2018, 06:01:55 PM
Thanks i figured it would be a real pain.. hi hi.. from looking at the pic in the book..
73 Tony WA4JQS


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: K6AER on February 19, 2018, 06:09:57 PM
You solder the coax on the relay before putting the relay into the relay cavity.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA4JQS on February 19, 2018, 06:51:53 PM
Mike thanks for the tip . i have made a not of that . always looking for good tips hihi
looks like it will be about like recapping a sx 28 or 32 hi hi.. a real pain to get to the switch caps.
it has been a great amp. used it at VP8SSI in 92 and 3Y0PI  in  94.. and lots of contests later. still has org tubes and full output.
just the relay starting to show its age.
73 Tony WA4JQS


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 19, 2018, 09:37:58 PM
My 922A has started acting like the relay is either not closing all the way or the contacts have become dirty / pitted after 25 years of use. could be the spring also. sometimes when i un-key the amp the receive will drop down to about half of what it was on the  950sdx. if i key the amp the receiver will come back up. just to make sure it was not the  950sdx  relay put the amp in standby.. worked fine. with the amp back in line about every 8 or 9th transmission it will drop down again.  What i wonder before i pull the amp out of the console . is RL -1 a plug in relay that i can change or at least clean the contact on ? Does anyone carry a replacement relay ?
Relays with contacts that aren't hermetically sealed need a "wetting" current passed thru them to prevent oxidation. The relays used to switch RF in most ham amplifiers "dry" switch, and they eventually start to intermit. This usually happens to the N.C. (bypass) contacts. The relays are also very S-L-O-W, potentially "hot" switching (the input switch doesn't close before RF gets to the N.O. contacts).

The TL-922 is known for both problems. You can bend the contacts closer to alleviate the hot switching but, you still have the oxidation problem. The best fix for both is to use vacuum relays that have sealed contacts, and switch faster than the rig can produce RF. Jim W7RY (QRZ bio (http://www.qrz.com/db/W7RY)) produces a PCB that drives vacuum and reed relays. The fastest rigs produce RF in about 5ms but, the relays Jim suggest measured at 1ms (for the slowest relay contacts). Other systems use an outboard sequencer (delay) box to prevent RF from happening before the relays switch. Or, some rigs can be optioned to delay RF. However, if the amplifier is faster than the rig, nothing special is needed. And, with sealed contacts, they'll likely outlast you.

In addition to presenting a low voltage & low current load to the rig's T/R output, Jim's board also provides electronically regulated & switched bias, and LED drivers. He sells on eBay as seller 'radioamplifiers' (link (http://www.ebay.com/sch/radioamplifiers/m.html)). You get a bare board. When you make your purchase, he emails complete documentation, and a link to the Bill Of Material on Mouser. He doesn't sell the vacuum relay for the output but instead, suggests Max Gain Systems (link (http://mgs4u.com/vacuum-relays-catalog/)) as a source. He offers a suitable reed relay for the input switch, for a reasonable cost. I bought and like his board for my Heathkit SB-220. However, at the time, I found a better deal for vacuum relays on eBay.

Bryan WA7PRC


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA4JQS on February 20, 2018, 01:07:28 PM
Thanks I have known Jim from our RTTY contest days. ill drop him a note
73 Tony


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: AA2UK on February 20, 2018, 02:04:57 PM
I gave up on internal open frame RF relays a long time ago. I have used Tohtsu relays in a bypass/ amp in/out config. The relays are external and the RF cabling inside the amplifier are modified for direct connection to the input and output connectors. I typically use a BNC relay for the input and an N connector for the output. If I have to replace the internal coaxial cable I use RG-142. Here's an example of the circuit, http://qro-parts.com/product_info.php?products_id=102 (I don't use the relays in this example). You could also use a single high power bypass relay.
This allows me to use a sequencer (DEMI) to close the RF relays before any bias is applied to the amplifier eliminating hot switching while providing modern rigs with a low current interface for the amp bias.
Bill, AA2UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: K6AER on February 21, 2018, 09:19:33 AM
Bill,

Thanks for the info. I am in the process of modifying a TL-922A with some basic mods such as 10 meters, keying and a possible QSK relay. I went out to look at the Russian relays you listed and they are big. I also have a feeling they or noisy as well. Several folks have made QSK kits for the TL-922 series over the years but they have moved on. One nice set of mods was provided by Don Kessler back in the late 90's. I guess I can home brew my own. Gigavac used to offer ham discounts.

Mike


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: AA2UK on February 21, 2018, 09:47:48 AM
I do not recommend the Russian relays i was simply showing the circuit. I use Tohtsu relays they are very quiet but in my case I don't want the relays inside the cabinet.
https://www.rfparts.com/relays/relays-tohtsu.html
QSK isn't an option I need or want. relays meet their MTBF's fast enough QSK adds to this exponentially.
Bill, AA2UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 03:51:36 AM
Unfortunately, many think of Morse when the term "QSK" is used. In fact, when you consider the number of ON/OFF operations used in Morse, it won't take very long to "hit the wall" of a few million open/closed relay operations when used in full Morse QSK.

The points are to avoid hot-switching, and oxidized contacts. Vacuum relays accomplish both. Tohtsu's offerings do neither. The only thing you get with them is usability above 30 MHz... that the TL922 doesn't do. According to the several Tohtsu datasheets I saw, the fastest i about 15ms (about three times the fastes rig can produce RF). A delay/sequencer is still needed, and the OE relays might as well be used.

OTOH, FAST hermetically sealed relays fixes both problems. Whether he uses the W7RY setup or homebrews his own, Tony WA4JQS is on the right track.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: AA2UK on February 22, 2018, 04:29:48 AM
Thanks I hit those points.
Bill, AA2UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 05:16:52 AM
You're welcome, and I pointed out that none of the Tohtsu relays are suitable (by themselves) to avoid hot switching and oxidized contacts... the biggest concerns in this application. Vacuum relays generally are fast enough.

I do however apologize for my tpyos. ;)


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1QJ on February 22, 2018, 05:40:31 AM
I've recently had occasion to visit the QSK realm of vintage amplifiers.  I guided a friend of mine through the entire process of installing a W7RY QSK system in his SB-220 amp.  He used Jim's PC board and Jim's small input relay, and I sold him an HC-1 Gigavac relay.  After a few sessions working together on it using Facebook messenger, we were able to send instant photos so that there was no question as to what was being done on the other end.  At completion it worked first time and flawlessly.  It seemed that the hardest part  (for him) was the mechanical process of fabricating mounting for the HC-1 relay and how to integrate the connections to the board with the amp itself.  This is where I came in.  Once completed he is totally delighted with it.  The "big buck" item in this system is the vacuum relay and a new one is going to cost you about $100 to get into your hands.  With the limited cycle life of these relays you probably won't want to use a used relay. As pointed out by PRC it doesn't take long to use up the cycles if you are an avid CW op.  

I was recently going over the MFJ catalog and I spotted an interesting relay they offer.  It is a high speed relay made by Gigagvac I think it is that sells for $20.  This relay is rated for QSK and can easily handle the RF current from an SB-220,922 and most amps with 3-500 tubes of less.  Seeing as these are the amps that don't have QSK these days, this relay should be fine in place of an expensive HC-1 or RJ-1a.  The MFJ (Gigavac) relay is small and made to be mounted on a board.  Jim's input relay is tiny also.  I believe if Jim gets creative with a new board, he can make a PC board with all the circuitry and can easily add the two relays as part of the board.  This would drastically reduce the cost and make the installation of the entire QSK system much easier.  

The last time I talked with Jim with an idea, we now have the 10 capacitor/diode  board  for the AL-82/1200/1500 which addresses the main problem with those amps.

 


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 06:34:57 AM
The "big buck" item in this system is the vacuum relay and a new one is going to cost you about $100 to get into your hands.
I found 3/$80 RJ1s unused surplus shipped on eBay. Typically, they run about that much each, ONE time. It would be bad however, if they needed replacing often.

With the limited cycle life of these relays you probably won't want to use a used relay. As pointed out by PRC it doesn't take long to use up the cycles if you are an avid CW op.
FULL break-in would be a problem. Semi break-in, not so much. Look at it as VOX on fone w/ shorter vs longer delay. In all cases, you want the RX-TX transition to be faster than RF can get to the relay contacts.

I was recently going over the MFJ catalog and I spotted an interesting relay they offer.  It is a high speed relay made by Gigagvac I think it is that sells for $20.  This relay is rated for QSK and can easily handle the RF current from an SB-220,922 and most amps with 3-500 tubes of less.  Seeing as these are the amps that don't have QSK these days, this relay should be fine in place of an expensive HC-1 or RJ-1a.  The MFJ (Gigavac) relay is small and made to be mounted on a board.  Jim's input relay is tiny also.  I believe if Jim gets creative with a new board, he can make a PC board with all the circuitry and can easily add the two relays as part of the board.  This would drastically reduce the cost and make the installation of the entire QSK system much easier.
I've seen those relays in the catalog (pn 408-8100 & 408-8500). However, they don't state the transition time. The #408-8100 is Kilovac #S05FJA238 (now obsolete & no data available, link (http://www.te.com/usa-en/product-1-1618259-6.html)). I see they're also listed as having single throw contacts. The latter may just be a misprint, as you'd need double throw contacts for T/R function.

For the vacuum relay (output switch) and reed relay (input switch) recommended by W7RY, the WORST case transition time was just barely 1 millisecond. The fastest any rig can produce RF is about 5 milliseconds.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1QJ on February 22, 2018, 07:05:40 AM
Bryan, according to MFJ these relays are suitable for QSK.  I think they are still available by the company who took over Kilovac possibly under a different part number.  I haven't contacted MFJ to see if those relays are available thru them or they did not delete them from the catalog if they are no longer available.  Ameritron is now (at least on the big amps) are coming through with a "board" with two separate relays on them apparently rated for semi bk in at least.  Some of the cheaper models may also have these boards now.  I think the newer 811 amps may even have them. 


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 07:21:11 AM
Bryan, according to MFJ these relays are suitable for QSK. I think they are still available by the company who took over Kilovac possibly under a different part number.
A datasheet would be nice. I looked, a lot. TE Connectivity (used to be Tyco), who bought Kilovac, doesn't show any data for their replacement (pn 1-1618259-6). Before I use a part, I want to know the important data ("trust me" doesn't cut it). This comment looks interesting: http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2017-04/msg00108.html

I haven't contacted MFJ to see if those relays are available thru them or they did not delete them from the catalog if they are no longer available.  Ameritron is now (at least on the big amps) are coming through with a "board" with two separate relays on them apparently rated for semi bk in at least.  Some of the cheaper models may also have these boards now.  I think the newer 811 amps may even have them. 
That's all good & well for Ameritron but, we're talking retrofitting a legacy 'amplefire'.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: AA2UK on February 22, 2018, 07:43:19 AM
S05FJA238=RELAY, VACUUM, REED

 OBSOLETE
TE Part # 1-1618259-6
TE Internal #: 1-1618259-6
Alias #:S05FJA238
Bill AA2UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 07:55:21 AM
S05FJA238=RELAY, VACUUM, REED

 OBSOLETE
TE Part # 1-1618259-6
TE Internal #: 1-1618259-6
Alias #:S05FJA238
Bill AA2UK
That's what I got, by searching the information from the MFJ catalog and the link I found (http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/2017-04/msg00108.html). Note that Jim Lux, in the page I found, suggested that MFJ may have purchased an end-of-life (EOL) batch from then Kilovac, and the only way to buy any would be through MFJ. Heathkit did that, too.

And we still don't know important data about that relay...


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: AA2UK on February 22, 2018, 08:47:30 AM
I agree the specifications are important. I'm not even sure if MFJ is selling this part?
Bill, AA2UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1QJ on February 22, 2018, 09:12:38 AM
There are some specs at the MFJ page as far as the contact current but no data on timing.  I'm sure a few minutes with a scope and that can be determined.  We can hash this out until the cows come home.  The only thing to do is make a phone call to MFJ and see if this relay is still available and what the supply is on them if they are.  They do say that they are good for QSK.   I have no reason to doubt that.

Bryan, you often refer to "hot switching" and it is a big concern of yours.  When you use the term are you mainly referring to hot switching the amplifier or the radio?  three things are happening every time you transmit through an amplifier.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
There are some specs at the MFJ page as far as the contact current but no data on timing.  I'm sure a few minutes with a scope and that can be determined.  We can hash this out until the cows come home.  The only thing to do is make a phone call to MFJ and see if this relay is still available and what the supply is on them if they are.  They do say that they are good for QSK.   I have no reason to doubt that.
An engineer never designs a part into a circuit w/o seeing a datasheet and/or testing the part. And, buyers for OEMs are nervous about ordering a single-source part. Having a unique part cost skyrocket isn't nearly as bad as the part becoming unobtanium. Been there, don't want to be there again.

Bryan, you often refer to "hot switching" and it is a big concern of yours.  When you use the term are you mainly referring to hot switching the amplifier or the radio?  three things are happening every time you transmit through an amplifier.
Many times, I and many others have referred to "hot switching" as the rig producing RF before the amplifier input relay N.O. contacts have closed (and stopped bouncing). Typically, the rig sees an open circuit, and its VSWR protection kicks in, momentarily reducing RFOUT. SOME (but not all) newer rigs can be optioned to delay RF a few milliseconds. With open-frame relays, you still have "dry" N.C. contacts that tend to oxidize (and intermit).


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1BR on February 22, 2018, 10:01:08 AM
There are some specs at the MFJ page as far as the contact current but no data on timing.  I'm sure a few minutes with a scope and that can be determined.  We can hash this out until the cows come home.  The only thing to do is make a phone call to MFJ and see if this relay is still available and what the supply is on them if they are.  They do say that they are good for QSK.   I have no reason to doubt that.

Bryan, you often refer to "hot switching" and it is a big concern of yours.  When you use the term are you mainly referring to hot switching the amplifier or the radio?  three things are happening every time you transmit through an amplifier.

Lou

All of my Ten Tec rigs are modified to key my amp from the "T line"   driving a FET.  That delay provides ample time for the vacuum and reed relays to switch in my SB-220.  Verified the timing with my Tek scope just to make sure there was no RF drive until the relays had ample settling time. 

Pete


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 10:06:43 AM
Quote
All of my Ten Tec rigs are modified to key my amp ...
One nice thing about using the W7RY (et al) vacuum relay setup is, ZERO modification is needed of any rig connected to it. He's already verified that, using the relays he recommends the (worst case) delay is still much faster than any rig can supply RF.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1QJ on February 22, 2018, 11:18:44 AM
I called MFJ and they have 54 pieces of the relays in question one hand now.  Naturally the girl did not know the state of any reorder. 


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 11:22:15 AM
I called MFJ and they have 54 pieces of the relays in question one hand now.  Naturally the girl did not know the state of any reorder. 
How about a datasheet?


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: W1QJ on February 22, 2018, 11:50:51 AM
Here you go:  One of these should work.  Price????

https://www.relayspec.com/catalogs/006720/0582/18-19.pdf


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 11:58:35 AM
Here you go:  One of these should work.  Price????

https://www.relayspec.com/catalogs/006720/0582/18-19.pdf
My antivirus software doesn't like it. It sez:
   Dangerous Web Page Blocked
   You attempted to access:
   https://www.relayspec.com/catalogs/006720/0582/18-19.pdf
   This is a known dangerous web page.
   It is highly recommended that you do NOT visit this page.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: N1UK on February 22, 2018, 12:14:55 PM
https://www.relayspec.com/catalogs/006720/0582/18-19.pdf


Malwarebytes and ZoneAlarm opened it up fine.  It is a pdf data sheet.


73 Mark N1UK


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 12:34:08 PM
https://www.relayspec.com/catalogs/006720/0582/18-19.pdf


Malwarebytes and ZoneAlarm opened it up fine.  It is a pdf data sheet.

73 Mark N1UK
Thanks, Mark. I saved the link locally (without opening it first), and scanned it. :)

The "open frame reed relays" are only single throw ("Form A/B Contact Configuration"). To switch an amplifier in/out you need double throw (DPDT or 2x SPDT). You'd need to use two Form A (SPST, N.O.) and two Form B (SPST, N.C.). And that doesn't handle the bias control. The W7RY setup drives two SPDT relays, and toggles the bias electronically.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: K6AER on February 22, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
Anyone know the cost of these relays?


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 06:47:39 PM
Anyone know the cost of these relays?
Since they're available ONLY in "1 Form A" (SPST, Normally Open) and "1 Form B" (SPST, Normally Closed), you'l need one of each for one side of an amplifier. It appears the manufacturer (Cynergy 3, link (http://www.cynergy3.com/product/screened-6a-8kv)) uses Digi-Key for North America distribution. They want $45.63 EACH for PN FRD12015 (link (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=FRD12015)). So, assuming you go with an inexpensive small reed relay ($5 to $15), you're still spending about $90 for the output switch.


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: KI6SZ on February 22, 2018, 07:01:13 PM
The T/R relay is a 110 VDC DPDT open frame relay. You can buy  a replacement from Digikey. Not an easy replacement located next to the tank circuit and is accessible only from the bottom of the amplifier but the hold down nut has to be done from the top. It is a PITA to remove. If you have to clean the contacts just replace the relay. Be carful removing the Choke coil.

You can also use the T/R relay from Harbach Electronics for the SB-220 but the wiring locations will be different and a new mounting hole will have to be added.


Some folks might want to put in a QSK relay. Dick Kessler used to make a kit but I think he is out of the TL-922 business now.

This is Don Kessler...  Definitely not out of business...  Kessler Engineering LLC


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: K6AER on February 22, 2018, 09:44:26 PM
Don,

Great to see you alive and well.

Your phone number? send it to mhiggins@skybeam.com

Mike


Title: RE: TL-922A Relay RL-1
Post by: WA7PRC on February 22, 2018, 10:27:17 PM
Don,

Great to see you alive and well.

Your phone number? send it to [redacted]

Mike
Requested information researched and supplied:
Anyone know the cost of these relays?
Since they're available ONLY in "1 Form A" (SPST, Normally Open) and "1 Form B" (SPST, Normally Closed), you'l need one of each for one side of an amplifier. It appears the manufacturer (Cynergy 3, link (http://www.cynergy3.com/product/screened-6a-8kv)) uses Digi-Key for North America distribution. They want $45.63 EACH for PN FRD12015 (link (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=FRD12015)). So, assuming you go with an inexpensive small reed relay ($5 to $15), you're still spending about $90 for the output switch.