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eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: WXSHAM on October 01, 2018, 07:17:21 AM



Title: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 01, 2018, 07:17:21 AM
Is this true?

(article link) FCC Back pedals — All transceivers capable of transmitting on frequencies that require certification must be certified and can not be used on Amateur radio

https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5





Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AB4ZT on October 01, 2018, 09:46:32 AM
Manufactroversy...with a little bit of poor reading comprehension on the part of the author thrown in for good measure.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: DL8OV on October 01, 2018, 11:02:07 AM
That would be silly. Any homebrew rig or kit is capable of transmitting outside the amateur bands and is not certified by the FCC. If the article was true then it could not go on air.

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 01, 2018, 01:02:46 PM
The FCC says you can't sell or import non certified rigs that operate in areas where certification is needed.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 01, 2018, 04:25:43 PM
The FCC says you can't sell or import non certified rigs that operate in areas where certification is needed.

There is no statutory authority that prohibits importing. You could, for example, when in China buy 6 radios and bring them back for your personal use. As long as you use them within the requirements of Part 97, there are no broken regulations.

Where you do run afoul of the regulations is if you import them and sell them for non-amateur use.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 01, 2018, 06:27:49 PM
The FCC says you can't sell or import non certified rigs that operate in areas where certification is needed.

There is no statutory authority that prohibits importing. You could, for example, when in China buy 6 radios and bring them back for your personal use. As long as you use them within the requirements of Part 97, there are no broken regulations.

Where you do run afoul of the regulations is if you import them and sell them for non-amateur use.

- Glenn W9IQ

Hi Glen,

Here is a quote from FCC advisory notice at:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios
 (https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios)
I read this as not allowing rigs that extend transmit beyond the ham bands and not being certified, as not salable or usable in the US.

===============================CUT====================================
What Should You Know?
The Bureau has noted an increase in the manufacturing, importation, advertising, and sale of two-way
VHF/UHF radios that are not authorized in accordance with the Commission’s rules. (4) Generally,
electronic devices that intentionally emit radio waves are required to be certified by the FCC or an
authorized third-party certification entity (Telecommunications Certification Body) prior to importation,
advertising, sale, or use. 5 Two-way VHF/UHF radios require FCC certification to show compliance with
our rules, unless they qualify for a limited exception (see Amateur Radio Exception, below, and Federal
government exception at footnote (4).
This certification requirement ensures that equipment complies with technical requirements to avoid
causing interference to federal government operations, private licensed operations, and other authorized
operations or equipment. (6) Equipment that does not comply with the technical requirements cannot
be certified and thus cannot be imported, advertised, sold, or used. (7)


Amateur Radio Exception. There is one exception to this certification requirement: if a device is capable
of operating only on frequencies that the FCC has allocated for use by Amateur Radio Service licensees, it
does not require FCC equipment authorization, [8] and an amateur licensee may use his or her license to
operate such radios. However, many two-way radios that purport to operate on amateur frequencies also
operate on frequencies that extend beyond the designated amateur frequency bands. [9] If a two-way
VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification. [10]
Even if a two-way VHF/UHF radio operates solely within the amateur frequencies, the operator is
required to have an amateur license to operate the device and must otherwise comply with all applicable
rules. 11 The Bureau will take very seriously any reports of failures of two-way radio operators to comply
with all relevant rules and requirements when using devices in the amateur bands.
===============================CUT====================================

Seems pretty clear to me that you can not import, use, or sell radios that are not certified, and if a radio can transmit outside of the ham bands and is not certified, it can not be used in Amateur service...

The bold is as per the FCC handout...  Seems if it is not certified, it can't be sold or used.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 01, 2018, 06:42:27 PM
If you would like to defend that point, please site the appropriate FCC regulation. I believe you will find that they are simply overreaching with their statement. Their authority is limited to the restriction of the advertisement for, or sale of, such non-certified devices.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 01, 2018, 07:02:20 PM
Don't feel I need too, if you feel the need to defend your position I am all ears...


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WI9MJ on October 01, 2018, 09:15:18 PM
Amateur transmitters are not certified, so it is legal to use these in the amateur bands. It is not legal to use these in other radio services as they do not meet the requirements of other services.

Check your manual and you will see an amateur radio is certified as a part 15 device (covers the receiver) but there is no part 97 certification.

It would be nice to have a handheld that operates in both the amateur and FRS services, but that would require a fixed antenna and channelized operation.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 02, 2018, 06:00:57 AM

So based on this
https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios

That makes pretty much all the baofeng and various other white label names they use not legal for sale if I read that correctly?



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 02, 2018, 06:42:58 AM

So based on this
https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios

That makes pretty much all the baofeng and various other white label names they use not legal for sale if I read that correctly?



Actually it says can't be sold or used? So everyone can't use baofeng radio's anymore?


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: K4JJL on October 02, 2018, 07:30:22 AM

So based on this
https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios

That makes pretty much all the baofeng and various other white label names they use not legal for sale if I read that correctly?



Actually it says can't be sold or used? So everyone can't use baofeng radio's anymore?

I couldn't imagine the FCC running around with "Baofeng Detector Vans" like the UK does with their TV licensing.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 02, 2018, 09:04:57 AM

Quote
I couldn't imagine the FCC running around with "Baofeng Detector Vans" like the UK does with their TV licensing.

Not sure they even do that now. Every so often, they write to me and I ignore them and their threats to visit me for about two or three months and then tell them that I do not have a television set in the house. I object to their assumption that I have a TV and their expectation of me wasting my time telling them that I haven't, so the more of their time and money I can waste for them, the better.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: K4JJL on October 02, 2018, 02:08:48 PM
...so the more of their time and money I can waste for them, the better.

I heard most of those guys running around doing collections work on commission.

BTW, love that Monty Python sketch about the "fish license" where he mentions the "cat detector van".  There's also some pretty good YouBoob videos of people telling off the TV license guys.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 02, 2018, 02:26:31 PM
I believe they are now funded by the BBC and not the Radio Licensing people (OFCOM - the Radio Administration) now.....


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: K6CPO on October 02, 2018, 08:09:27 PM
The FCC says you can't sell or import non certified rigs that operate in areas where certification is needed.

There is no statutory authority that prohibits importing. You could, for example, when in China buy 6 radios and bring them back for your personal use. As long as you use them within the requirements of Part 97, there are no broken regulations.

Where you do run afoul of the regulations is if you import them and sell them for non-amateur use.

- Glenn W9IQ

Hi Glen,

Here is a quote from FCC advisory notice at:
https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios
 (https://www.fcc.gov/document/enforcement-bureau-issues-advisory-two-way-vhfuhf-radios)
I read this as not allowing rigs that extend transmit beyond the ham bands and not being certified, as not salable or usable in the US.

===============================CUT====================================
What Should You Know?
The Bureau has noted an increase in the manufacturing, importation, advertising, and sale of two-way
VHF/UHF radios that are not authorized in accordance with the Commission’s rules. (4) Generally,
electronic devices that intentionally emit radio waves are required to be certified by the FCC or an
authorized third-party certification entity (Telecommunications Certification Body) prior to importation,
advertising, sale, or use. 5 Two-way VHF/UHF radios require FCC certification to show compliance with
our rules, unless they qualify for a limited exception (see Amateur Radio Exception, below, and Federal
government exception at footnote (4).
This certification requirement ensures that equipment complies with technical requirements to avoid
causing interference to federal government operations, private licensed operations, and other authorized
operations or equipment. (6) Equipment that does not comply with the technical requirements cannot
be certified and thus cannot be imported, advertised, sold, or used. (7)


Amateur Radio Exception. There is one exception to this certification requirement: if a device is capable
of operating only on frequencies that the FCC has allocated for use by Amateur Radio Service licensees, it
does not require FCC equipment authorization, [8] and an amateur licensee may use his or her license to
operate such radios. However, many two-way radios that purport to operate on amateur frequencies also
operate on frequencies that extend beyond the designated amateur frequency bands. [9] If a two-way
VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification. [10]
Even if a two-way VHF/UHF radio operates solely within the amateur frequencies, the operator is
required to have an amateur license to operate the device and must otherwise comply with all applicable
rules. 11 The Bureau will take very seriously any reports of failures of two-way radio operators to comply
with all relevant rules and requirements when using devices in the amateur bands.
===============================CUT====================================

Seems pretty clear to me that you can not import, use, or sell radios that are not certified, and if a radio can transmit outside of the ham bands and is not certified, it can not be used in Amateur service...

The bold is as per the FCC handout...  Seems if it is not certified, it can't be sold or used.


Line [9] is the key. 

I have a Baofeng UV-5RE that will transmit on Part 90 frequencies, amateur frequencies and GMRS frequencies. It does not hold certification for Part 90 or GMRS, so, according to the Enforcement advisory, it is illegal to use at all.  On the other hand, I have two Wouxun radios that are capable of transmitting on Part 90 and the amateur bands that I can use because they hold Part 90 certification.  The same with my AnyTone DMR radio...


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 03, 2018, 07:35:07 AM
That is how I take it as well...  Some radios are just not legal to use, sell, or import... 
Someone upthread did mention the FCC may be overstepping boundaries, which may be the case.  I am not a lawyer, and don't have a clue what holds the FCC in check from overstepping, or even what constitutes overstepping, and if overstepping has occurred.  Nor do I care.  I do know I will be not using my UV5-R anymore, as to me it seems a violation of FCC wishes.  Given I get my license from them, and that I trust their intentions, I want to keep them happy, and assist in any way I can in helping them keep things under control.

I think the FCC goal is to get non certified radios off commercial frequencies, and that is how I will interpret the current advisory notice.  I suspect the FCC has instituted this policy to allow them the ability to further hammer someone they catch on the commercial bands using a non certified radio.  This may add  yet another rules violation to the list for the offender. 

It seem to me, that the FCC is being proactive in stopping a problem, which is very good, hopefully before that problem gets further out of hand.  Seeing the FCC try and get ahead of a problem is great news as far as I am concerned.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: K6CPO on October 03, 2018, 02:31:29 PM
That is how I take it as well...  Some radios are just not legal to use, sell, or import... 
Someone upthread did mention the FCC may be overstepping boundaries, which may be the case.  I am not a lawyer, and don't have a clue what holds the FCC in check from overstepping, or even what constitutes overstepping, and if overstepping has occurred.  Nor do I care.  I do know I will be not using my UV5-R anymore, as to me it seems a violation of FCC wishes.  Given I get my license from them, and that I trust their intentions, I want to keep them happy, and assist in any way I can in helping them keep things under control.

I think the FCC goal is to get non certified radios off commercial frequencies, and that is how I will interpret the current advisory notice.  I suspect the FCC has instituted this policy to allow them the ability to further hammer someone they catch on the commercial bands using a non certified radio.  This may add  yet another rules violation to the list for the offender. 

It seem to me, that the FCC is being proactive in stopping a problem, which is very good, hopefully before that problem gets further out of hand.  Seeing the FCC try and get ahead of a problem is great news as far as I am concerned.

I quit using (what little I actually did) my UV-5RE when i learned about the spectral purity issues with them.  I set it aside until I could have it tested, but now it's a moot point as it doesn't possess the necessary certifications.

Some of the VEs in the team I supervise keep new Baofengs on hand to give to kids that pass their Technician licenses.  I doubt I can actually stop them from doing this, but I'm going to strongly recommend they reconsider their actions, at least until we can get some clarification from the FCC.  The local ARES group teaches classes in how to use HTs and I believe they are looking at discontinuing teaching Baofengs because of the questions surrounding the radios.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 03, 2018, 04:29:34 PM

I quit using (what little I actually did) my UV-5RE when i learned about the spectral purity issues with them.  I set it aside until I could have it tested, but now it's a moot point as it doesn't possess the necessary certifications.

And what part 97 certifications does it lack?

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 03, 2018, 07:34:07 PM
And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions...


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 03, 2018, 11:40:36 PM
This makes for interesting reading on the subject:
https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5
http://www.arrl.org/news/view/arrl-fcc-discussing-issue-of-uncertified-imported-vhf-uhf-transceivers


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 04, 2018, 01:26:03 AM
Surely it is the responsibility of the operator to only transmit in the bands and modes for which he is licenced? At least in theory, an amateur is responsible and sufficiently technically qualified to understand and abide by that. Taken to the extreme, the use of a WW2 SCR522 transmitter on 2m AM  (with suitable filters for reducing unwanted emissions) or tuning an old GE or Motorola VHF mobile radio to 2m FM would be banned.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 04, 2018, 03:16:10 AM
And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions...

Of course there is no amateur transmitter certification. My point is that the FCC is overreaching their statutory authority with the notion that hams cannot use these radios. Hams can purchase, modify, build, and operate any transmitter, including these, as long as it otherwise complies with Part 97 when used on the air.  As you can see from a few posts earlier, now the ARRL has come to our defense on this exact point.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 04, 2018, 03:28:28 AM
It seems to me I remember  some commentary that the FCC is trying to keep these cheap radios out of the non-ham community. The main point was that non-hams would be more likely to cause interference with commercial/government communications. Seems to me that as long as a ham uses them only in ham bands, there would be no problem. Unless the radio itself does not meet generally accepted specifications for the band (spectral cleanliness comes to mind, and I am sure other things may apply).


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 04, 2018, 05:40:48 AM
As NK7Z posted it's good to see that ARRL responded to the advisory and is working on resolving the concerns:
http://www.arrl.org/news/view/arrl-fcc-discussing-issue-of-uncertified-imported-vhf-uhf-transceivers

(Have to remember to renew my subscription when it's up soon, it's good to hear they stay on top of these things.)

I agree the radio's shouldn't be marketed to the general public.  I see them on amazon with barely even a mention if at all that a license is required and it's illegal to use without one.

Usually it just says something like.. Great radio for hiking, camping, etc.....

But amateurs should be allowed to buy and use them.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 04, 2018, 06:15:44 AM
I am quite happy with how this is turning out, and boy the ARRL is right on top of these things!  Glad that are talking with the FCC to correct the error.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 04, 2018, 06:25:11 AM
Here is my perspective of what the FCC is trying to do with its overreaching notice.

They are genuinely trying to clamp down on non-certified radios and certified radios that can be used outside of their certified service (FCC part). Most of these radios are very broad banded and can also be used on the ham bands (as we know all too well). The FCC is also keenly aware that there is no certification requirement on ham transmitters nor is there any notion of a frequency capability limit for ham transmitters - we can have a transmitter that works from DC to daylight and as long as we use it in compliance with Part 97, we are meeting all applicable regulations.

I think that the problem the FCC foresees (and actually has already experienced) is that the retailers of these targeted radios will simply call them ham radio transceivers without changing any characteristics of the radio. This allows them to legally sidestep the attempt by the FCC to block their sale. So by falsely claiming that hams cannot use these transceivers, the FCC is attempting to block this maneuver by the retailers. It doesn't matter that the FCC lacks the authority to actually enforce this point as they will simply point to their notice and unless a retailer is willing to litigate the issue, the FCC has won. They may even collect fines from the retailer under the guise of their false premise.

As hams we should be very concerned about this FCC maneuver. It could have a chilling effect on the future availability of transmitters suitable for ham radio use. I applaud the ARRL for stepping into this issue before it becomes too solidified or worse yet, codified.

I can tell you from personal experience that the FCC does make mistakes in their rulings. It takes a significant legal battle to get them corrected as I have successfully litigated such a reversal. We should all get behind the ARRL push to get this corrected ASAP.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: SOFAR on October 04, 2018, 07:24:46 AM
FCC is doing the right thing.
No reason for those transceivers to be on the market.

ARRL needs to learn to choose its battles.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 04, 2018, 08:00:14 AM
Earlier Glenn and I were on different sides of this discussion, but as teh FCC has expanded on the available data, I agree with Glenn's assessment of the ARRLs actions in this matter.  It is good that they are on top of this. 


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 04, 2018, 09:03:04 AM
FCC is doing the right thing.
No reason for those transceivers to be on the market.

ARRL needs to learn to choose its battles.

A couple points:
- I agree these radio's should not be for sale to unlicensed folks and are being marketed improperly, not even indicating sometimes a license is required.
  So just like ham radio's sold to the public, they should indicate clearly a amateur license is required for operation.

 - Certain 1500 watt amplifiers are considered illegal to sell except to amateurs, should they stop selling those as well?
   I see this as a similar scenario something that should not be legal for non-licensed folks but should be permitted for folks that are licensed?

- Some ham's build their own equipment that "could" transmit outside of ham bands but they don't, and they should be allowed to sell those to other ham's by this advisory that would be illegal. So this advisory conflicts with current activity possibly making criminals out of many existing licensed amateurs.  There is a lot of investment in radio equipment people made that can help the public when needed... doesn't seem like it would be in the interest of the amateur licensee's or the public to limit amateur licensee's in this case.

- Some ham's repurpose public service or other transceivers that can broadcast out of ham bands (and adjust them to run in ham bands), then they might resell them, which is currently allowed but may be illegal as per this advisory. (I didn't realize this heard this from some arrl staff)


I think this probably can be solved by just making sure these units are advertised correctly and start fining places that don't advertise correctly OR perhaps if the companies by default change the firmware to limit to ham bands, but amateur licensees should be permitted to use radio's that "could" operate outside of normal licensed ranges, as long as they don't actual transmit on them. 

Also in the training for the license it is permitted to transmit on any frequency in cases of life or death emergencies by an amateur licensed operator (as per the FCC regs). - though certainly wouldn't recommend that under most cases as people often get charged regardless of the federal regulations.






Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6EM on October 05, 2018, 05:32:30 PM
And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions..
Yes, draw your own accurate conclusions.  On May 21, 2012, the FCC's Office of Engineering and Technology issued a Type Acceptance for Part 90 application of the Baofeng UV-5R.  FCC ID is ZP5BF-5R

 Here is the link: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=n%2BgY1ooaqEevhls5IkVd1g%3D%3D&fcc_id=ZP5BF-5R

  You can click on the actual photo of the ID label.  I wasn't able to link to it.

Now, why they agreed to a keyboard frequency entry for Part 90 use is debatable.  Then again, they've done the same thing with the Puxing line as well.

This whole issue is about cheap competition that the major manufacturers like Motorola Solutions, Vertex Standard and Kewood do not like.  Amateur Radio is caught in the crossfire.



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: NK7Z on October 05, 2018, 10:05:30 PM
And what part 97 certifications does it lack?
- Glenn W9IQ
You have so framed your question to exclude the actual meaning of the Advisory, here is an actual cut from the advisory for clarity:

If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported,
advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification.


So...  The UV5RV2 can be operated outside of the Amateur bands, check...  The UV5RV2 does not have certification from the FCC, check...  There is no certification for part 97 radios, so the UV5RV2 is not certified in any way, check...  

Draw your own conclusions..
Yes, draw your own accurate conclusions.  On May 21, 2012, the FCC's Office of Engineering and Technology issued a Type Acceptance for Part 90 application of the Baofeng UV-5R.  FCC ID is ZP5BF-5R

 Here is the link: https://apps.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=n%2BgY1ooaqEevhls5IkVd1g%3D%3D&fcc_id=ZP5BF-5R
Note-- my post mentions the UV5RV2, not the UV5R which your link goes to.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 06, 2018, 01:45:44 AM
I wonder if FCC has the resources to go for Amazon etc in the courts for selling such radios......


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KG7CSS on October 06, 2018, 12:52:02 PM
http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-fcc-discussing-issue-of-uncertified-imported-vhf-uhf-transceivers

The AARL is trying to deal with the wording of  the of the Enforcement Advisory.  I agree that while not  legal for others services, in regards to the experimental nature, should be legal for Ham Radio. We have a history  of repurpose  of radio tech like software defined radio applications. Worst what will this mean for experimenting  like making an APRS transceiver using an off the shelf  radios system  on a chip is that can be programmed wide range of frequencies  for other applications ? It should be my responsibility  to ensure  my firmware dose to transmit outside the ham bands. 
I been watching the issue and  have nothing but scorn for  the  let  mouths. Let get this straight you do speak for me  and keep your paws of my Baofeng.  What fools these  mortals be. You  say I can’t buy a cheap  Chinese radio but have to buy a more expensive  Chinese radio. Give be a break.

There are a few concerns,  one is the non amateur  use of the radios. We had to deal  with a fan con  buying baofengs but not aware they were using ham radio bands. Also Radio city an baofeng n fell into the easy money trap. They bought into cheep  radios and not taking account of  regulatory issues.  A simple solution is  importing the radio and change the firmware to only operate  in  the  ham radio bands. and maybe investing  in  ATE test equipment to  program and test the radio  before   putting on the us market.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AA4PB on October 06, 2018, 01:41:12 PM
It's the same issue as with linear amplifiers. People were getting their hands on linear amplifiers intended for legal use on amateur radio and using them illegally on CB frequencies. The FCC solution was to require Certification of amplifiers in order to ensure they would not operate on CB frequencies. The result for hams - increased cost of linear amplifiers.

Now there is an issue with people getting their hands on VHF/UHF radios intended for legal use on amateur radio and using them illegally on commercial services where they don't meet technical requirements. The FCC solution is to require certification in order to ensure they meet requirements for all frequencies they will transmit on before it can be imported, sold, or used in the U.S. The result for hams - increased cost of VHF/UHF radios.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6EM on October 06, 2018, 06:49:30 PM
The real reason is a seriously underfunded FCC with lacking enforcement.  Not enough fear out there, so people buy them and figure they can get away with using them without getting caught.

So we have to pay for the FCC's inability to enforce the Communications Act.

Then again, I bought a lot of high current MosFETs a while back, and the dealer asked me what I was going to do with them.  Never experienced that before.  Amazing world we live in.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 06, 2018, 07:16:39 PM
No doubt that is part of the formula, Lee. But I also think the FCC failed to recognize the rapidly changing technology and marketplace dynamics. A VHF/UHF radio is no longer a significant engineering feat - it is now a couple of chips. And the go to market channel is no longer high margin, protective franchised dealers - it is a website.

Had they foreseen this, they could have put the measures in place several years ago as things started to change. Instead they held onto their weak certification scheme. Now that the users of these cheap radios are starting to interfere with other services, and perhaps the incumbents are grousing, the FCC is compelled to act.

Unfortunately, they are dragging the amateurs into this without any regulations to back up their assertion.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 07, 2018, 02:24:52 AM
My admittedly little experience in dealing with the FCC professionally is that there aren't enough engineers and far too many lawyers! Added to which is interference in FCC activities from politicians.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 07, 2018, 03:25:43 AM
My admittedly little experience in dealing with the FCC professionally is that there aren't enough engineers and far too many lawyers! Added to which is interference in FCC activities from politicians.

I couldn't agree more, Peter.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: JAZZMAN on October 07, 2018, 02:04:26 PM
That would be silly. Any homebrew rig or kit is capable of transmitting outside the amateur bands and is not certified by the FCC. If the article was true then it could not go on air.

Peter DL8OV

Good point


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: VE3WGO on October 08, 2018, 09:39:44 AM
if these cheap radios that refuse to get certification interfere with public safety bands, how would you feel if:

1. your house was burning and the fire department could not hear the address clearly on their mobile channels to respond to you quickly
2. you had a health incident and the paramedics or ambulance could not hear your address clearly on their mobile channels to respond to you quickly
3. your car broke down on a road a night and the towing company could not hear the dispatcher clearly on their mobile channels to respond to your problem at all.

Answers: you would wish that the first responderers were able to help you faster.  You would never know that it was interference to their systems that reduced your resulting quality of life.

Keep the public safety bands clear.  Many of them are not on 800 MHz trunked systems (yet), and won't be until your taxes go up even higher to pay for the transition.  They depend on clear channels.  Uncertified equipment with known emissions problems is not the way to go.

Sure, FCC may have not foreseen the future well enough, but nobody anticipated a group of ham radio transceiver manufacturers with seemingly almost nefarious moral judgement to do such sloppy design with transceiver chips for marginally designed and tested radios that so blatantly skirted the rules either.  

I see many comments on this and other threads saying "well, hams can build their own equipment and nobody checks that, so why the clamp down on cheap imported radios?".  The answer is that your homebrewed equipment DOES have to meet out of band emissions too, and your station needs to have the means to check that.  No free lunch.



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 08, 2018, 01:48:07 PM
I really don't like this, and it shouldn't stand.  The Commission should not be dictating in any way with what gear a Radio Amateur may or may not otherwise legally transmit with on an Amateur band.  That, to me is one of the central pillars of Amateur radio. 

It's one thing to require certain specifications from commercial manufacturers and sellers of gear, and quite another to require an Amateur operator to purchase/own specifically manufactured gear to operate on the air with.  It's ludicrous.

My home-brewed equipment, to correct the above poster, is not required to meet any sort of out of band emissions, whatsoever.  Until I choose to operate it, it is nothing but a benign pile of dead circuits on a workbench.  I am required, me personally, to ensure that my station does not transmit out of band.  Nothing I own or build, regardless of where it is capable to transmit on the spectrum, intentionally or unintentionally, is (nor ever should be) regulated or banned or illegal, and it is solely up to me, the operator to ensure spectral purity and non-interference of my own station.  This latest action suggests otherwise, that the Commission will now decide what gear, specifically, the Radio Amateur may use on the Amateur bands.  Not so amateur anymore, is it?

This may be a haphazard ploy to ban Chinese handhelds (most likely instigated by manufacturers of more expensive non-Chinese handlelds, who are quite used to controlling the market)  but it's got the potential to set a precedent that none of us want to see to it's fullest. 




Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AA4PB on October 08, 2018, 02:28:45 PM
" it's got the potential to set a precedent that none of us want to see to it's fullest."

The precedent was set back when the FCC started requiring Certification of linear amplifiers used for amateur radio.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 08, 2018, 08:59:43 PM
I really don't like this, and it shouldn't stand. 

Well I bet you don't homebrew handhelds, and it does need to be regulated due to the sale to non-hams...just like HF amp manufactures were required to have to take out 10 M so non hams wouldn't buy them for the 11 M band. A minor headache in its worst form. And hams had to do a little work. Poor babies...

As a retired firefighter, I really don't want just anybody to be able to transmit on the fire channels as well as any government or commercial channels. Can you imagine 2 people inadvertently talking on the fire dispatch repeater input making it unusable?

So hams have to work a little, like prove they are a ham if a regulation like that is passed, to get these Chinese pieces of junk. (Personally don't have one. My 20 year old Icom dual band HT works fine.) Probably better off with no one using them, rather than anyone using them. Too much interference potential to justify hams having them without any limits or restrictions.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 09, 2018, 02:02:32 AM
No I haven't home-brewed a handheld.  I don't even use handhelds, but that's not my point.  I don't care if the FCC bans the import of these radios, or if they don't.  The problem here is that the wording of the enforcement advisory states that:

"If a two-way VHF/UHF radio is capable of operating outside of the amateur frequency bands, it cannot be imported, advertised, sold, or operated within the United States without an FCC equipment certification."
(emphasis added)

So if you have a piece of gear that is even capable of operating out of band, you are prohibited by this wording from using it, even otherwise totally legally within an amateur band, even if operated by a licensed Amateur.  This is similar to stating that if you build an HF amplifier that can be made to operate on 11 meters, that you may not legally operate it on 10 meters, (or 20, 40, 80, etc.)   Show me a transistor that is engineered to amplify a 28MHz signal but nulls out at 27MHz.  

If it said "manufacture for commercial sale" maybe there would not be this issue, but it says "operate."  The Radio Amateur may now not legally operate an amateur station, on an amateur band, in an amateur mode, if his gear can be made to operate out of an amateur frequency band.  

I am willing to bet that your 20-year old Icom can easily be made to transmit on any VHF frequency with the addition of 2 less-than-10 cent diodes, and that anyone with a soldering iron and a google search could have it done in 15 minutes.  It is definitely 'capable' of out of band operation.  Therefore you are now banned from "operating"with it on 2 meters, so let me know when you cease operations and turn it in to the government.

This is the equivalent of the government banning certain firearms you may have had legally in your home for years, on the flimsy excuse that someone else may possibly use the same model of firearm to commit a crime, would you simply nod your head and hand them in, or destroy them?


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 09, 2018, 02:49:15 AM

I am willing to bet that your 20-year old Icom can easily be made to transmit on any VHF frequency with the addition of 2 less-than-10 cent diodes.  It is definitely 'capable' of out of band operation.  Therefore you are now banned from using it on 2 meters, so let me know when you turn it in to the government.

This is the equivalent of the government banning certain firearms you may have had legally in your home for years, on the flimsy excuse that someone else may possibly use the same model of firearm to commit a crime, would you simply nod your head and hand them in, or destroy them?

I prefer that manufactured radios be certified for what they are being sold for. Nothing in the language that I see prevents home brewing your own equipment or experimenting with new technologies. All I see is just knee jerk reactionary attitudes by people who close in on a couple of words and dismiss the rest in order to make an issue out of it. Which is why you emphasized a couple words in the statement.

Bet away...I would win. Just because something CAN be modified, does not mean it WILL be modified. So why would I turn it in to the government? There is your answer as to when. So did you modify any of your rigs? Did you build anything that CAN transmit out of the ham bands? Turn them in then, as you say.

Your right. Its like banning assault rifles, bump stocks, and other guns made to just kill people in large amounts. (I don't own anything like this to turn in, however I would turn them in if that were to become the law.) But that does not mean they are banning all guns. Just like the radios. Some should be restricted or banned for general public sale to prevent other problems.

Not to wish ill will, but would you want your fire department to miss a call when your house is on fire? Or get there too late for a trapped victim in the fire? Or the ambulance go to North Whatever Street and your on South Whatever Street due to interference? How about interfering with a business band repeater where people use the radios as part of making a living. Should we let others suffer so you can have a cheap Chinese toy with no restrictions? If you say yes, then you deserve the interference you get. Even when that interference moves into the ham bands. I am in the NO group for that question. In my 25 years on a fire department, I have seen the problem grow. I have even heard interference on the local school bus repeater. Is that the safety we want for our kids?

Geez so many complain the FCC does not protect the spectrum enough, and when they do, a huge amount of whining sets in. Maybe some day when all the ham bands become secondary use to hams they will wake up and protect what we have...even if it means some cheap junk is off the retail market.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 09, 2018, 04:02:58 AM
Quote
Not to wish ill will, but would you want your fire department to miss a call when your house is on fire? Or get there too late for a trapped victim in the fire? Or the ambulance go to North Whatever Street and your on South Whatever Street due to interference? How about interfering with a business band repeater where people use the radios as part of making a living. Should we let others suffer so you can have a cheap Chinese toy with no restrictions? If you say yes, then you deserve the interference you get.

Stan,

This is not what the FCC is concerned about. It is almost the exact opposite. They are concerned about certified radios (aka type accepted) that can operate outside of their type accepted range. This will not remove radios from the market that could be used to interfere with commercial, government, or emergency service communications. It will only allow them to operate within their service. You will still be able to buy these radios for $100 or so on the Internet as long as they only work within their certified frequency range. And public service radios and commercial business radios are certified under the same FCC "part".

The problem the FCC has, from an amateur radio perspective, is they lack the regulations to enforce the inability of any transmitter to be purchased, owned or used by an amateur as long as when it is used on the air, it complies with Part 97.

I think your comparison to assault rifles is appropriate. Just as the term assault rifle is defined to suit a political or an ideological position, so can any future regulation of the potential capabilities of a ham transmitter be used to our detriment. It could have a chilling effect on our hobby.

One can even logically argue that out of band transmissions by amateurs is permitted by current FCC regulations under specific emergency conditions. Any future regulation that requires only in-band capable amateur transmitters would thwart the intent and spirit of this capability.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 09, 2018, 08:47:43 AM
Quote
Not to wish ill will, but would you want your fire department to miss a call when your house is on fire? Or get there too late for a trapped victim in the fire? Or the ambulance go to North Whatever Street and your on South Whatever Street due to interference? How about interfering with a business band repeater where people use the radios as part of making a living. Should we let others suffer so you can have a cheap Chinese toy with no restrictions? If you say yes, then you deserve the interference you get.

Stan,

This is not what the FCC is concerned about. It is almost the exact opposite. They are concerned about certified radios (aka type accepted) that can operate outside of their type accepted range. This will not remove radios from the market that could be used to interfere with commercial, government, or emergency service communications. It will only allow them to operate within their service. You will still be able to buy these radios for $100 or so on the Internet as long as they only work within their certified frequency range. And public service radios and commercial business radios are certified under the same FCC "part".

The problem the FCC has, from an amateur radio perspective, is they lack the regulations to enforce the inability of any transmitter to be purchased, owned or used by an amateur as long as when it is used on the air, it complies with Part 97.

I think your comparison to assault rifles is appropriate. Just as the term assault rifle is defined to suit a political or an ideological position, so can any future regulation of the potential capabilities of a ham transmitter be used to our detriment. It could have a chilling effect on our hobby.

One can even logically argue that out of band transmissions by amateurs is permitted by current FCC regulations under specific emergency conditions. Any future regulation that requires only in-band capable amateur transmitters would thwart the intent and spirit of this capability.

- Glenn W9IQ

Thanks Glen! Yes I can agree with that interpretation as well. I may have overreached in my interpretation of what it means. Just helps illustrate how confusing the FCC statement really is.

My theory for better wording would be... If it is a ham rig (transmitter), it should only work in ham allocations. If it is commercial or government, then it should only operate in those allocations. I see nothing wrong with restricting the marketing and operation of transmitters to what they are being sold for. But then I would also argue the FCC should also require that not only does the radio match the marketing, but also require proof of license to purchase. Just like you need proof of who you are to buy a car and register it.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 09, 2018, 07:38:55 PM
I prefer that manufactured radios be certified for what they are being sold for. Nothing in the language that I see prevents home brewing your own equipment or experimenting with new technologies. All I see is just knee jerk reactionary attitudes by people who close in on a couple of words and dismiss the rest in order to make an issue out of it. Which is why you emphasized a couple words in the statement.

Those couple of words are all I really have an issue with.  "The rest," though it disgusts me slightly, is sadly old news in the hobby.  I don't really care if the Commission requires that factory radios be locked to ham bands.  I don't care that they are banning inexpensive Chinese VHF/UHF walkie-talkies to the benefit of makers of more expensive walkie-talkies.  I don't even care that some hams applaud this for selfish, vain, and elitist reasons.  That's humdrum business as usual.  

But those "couple of words" are quite dangerous and overreaching.  No one can homebrew and experiment if they are legally forbidden from operating their experimental gear on the amateur bands, and this wording does exactly that, at least for vhf/uhf.  It essentially forces you to buy a "big 3" manufactured commercial radio, at a specific price point,  if you want the privilege of transmitting on VHF/UHF.

When someone builds their own VHF gear, I can assure you that it will be capable of operating out of band, and will therefore be illegal to operate, in band,  by terms used in this enforcement advisory.  I guess this is why the ARRL also took issue, not with the entire advisory, but with that particular wording.

Bet away...I would win. Just because something CAN be modified, does not mean it WILL be modified. So why would I turn it in to the government? There is your answer as to when. So did you modify any of your rigs? Did you build anything that CAN transmit out of the ham bands? Turn them in then, as you say.

I'll bet you a brand new Baofeng against your Icom that they have essentially same core capabilities as far as coverage, and the only difference is a superficial lockout on the Icom's  board.  But whether you modify it or not, it is still, when viewed as an rf generator,  physically capable of transmitting out of band, and without a lot of effort.  All the rf-generating parts are there intact to give it that capability.  The capability is what the Commission is choosing to focus on, not what you do or don't do with that capability.

And by the same argument, just because something CAN be programmed on the keypad to transmit out of band, does it mean it WILL be?  There isn't much difference in equipment that can easily be modified to TX "wherever" and equipment that can easily be programmed to do the same.   There are even probably some who would find it easier to modify your radio than to program one of these Chinese HT's, from what I've read about them.    

All of my gear is capable of transmitting out of ham bands.  A one stage oscillator is capable of transmitting out of ham bands depending on what crystal you use.  But none of my gear is VHF/UHF gear, so it falls outside of this enforcement advisory, which specifically mentions only  VHF/UHF 2 way radios.

The point here is that the operator should only be have to be concerned with what his radio does - with what he makes it do or allows it to do - not with what it "can" do, or whether-or not his gear is contraband.  We are obligated to abide by Part 97 when we operate, not to do so only with approved "products."  

It's out of the authority of the FCC to insist or claim that if some equipment can transmit on frequency A , that you may not transmit on frequency B with that same piece of equipment, when you are a licensed amteur and frequency B is an amateur frequency.  

Not to wish ill will, but would you want your fire department to miss a call when your house is on fire? Or get there too late for a trapped victim in the fire? Or the ambulance go to North Whatever Street and your on South Whatever Street due to interference? How about interfering with a business band repeater where people use the radios as part of making a living. Should we let others suffer so you can have a cheap Chinese toy with no restrictions? If you say yes, then you deserve the interference you get. Even when that interference moves into the ham bands. I am in the NO group for that question. In my 25 years on a fire department, I have seen the problem grow. I have even heard interference on the local school bus repeater. Is that the safety we want for our kids?

All of these things you have mentioned are very bad things no one wants and they should not happen.  And also they have been illegal for as long as anyone can remember, and these services have been interfered with long before these radios were ever invented or sold.  

Of course nobody should ever interfere with public safety channels.  Nobody should ever interfere with business channels.

But then of course, nobody should also drive their car off the road into a crowd of people either, but some people do, so why aren't we calling for a ban on steering wheels, and petitioning the government mandate us all into driverless autonomous cars?  If we're fear-mongering 'for the sake of the children' we might as well ban something that has actually killed more kids than QRM has: steering wheels.

I've written the ARRL asking for updates on their discussions with the FCC on this.  If they come through and force the commission to retract and reword this advisory, I may actually join.  

Until then:
"Psst!  Hey kid, over here, in this dark alley behind the flea market... Listen kid, you wanna buy some Baofengs?  I got the good stuff, man.  Pre-ban, unlocked VFO, talk on all the frequencies...I'll throw in some unpadded nuchucks and some black-cat firecrackers. "


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 09, 2018, 08:32:49 PM
I prefer that manufactured radios be certified for what they are being sold for. Nothing in the language that I see prevents home brewing your own equipment or experimenting with new technologies. All I see is just knee jerk reactionary attitudes by people who close in on a couple of words and dismiss the rest in order to make an issue out of it. Which is why you emphasized a couple words in the statement.

Those couple of words are all I really have an issue with.  "The rest," though it disgusts me slightly, is sadly old news in the hobby.  I don't really care if the Commission requires that factory radios be locked to ham bands.  I don't care that they are banning inexpensive Chinese VHF/UHF walkie-talkies to the benefit of makers of more expensive walkie-talkies.  I don't even care that some hams applaud this for selfish, vain, and elitist reasons.  That's humdrum business as usual.  

But those "couple of words" are quite dangerous and overreaching.  No one can homebrew and experiment if they are legally forbidden from operating their experimental gear on the amateur bands, and this wording does exactly that, at least for vhf/uhf.  It essentially forces you to buy a "big 3" manufactured commercial radio, at a specific price point,  if you want the privilege of transmitting on VHF/UHF.

When someone builds their own VHF gear, I can assure you that it will be capable of operating out of band, and will therefore be illegal to operate, in band,  by terms used in this enforcement advisory.  I guess this is why the ARRL also took issue, not with the entire advisory, but with that particular wording.

Bet away...I would win. Just because something CAN be modified, does not mean it WILL be modified. So why would I turn it in to the government? There is your answer as to when. So did you modify any of your rigs? Did you build anything that CAN transmit out of the ham bands? Turn them in then, as you say.

I'll bet you a brand new Baofeng against your Icom that they have essentially same core capabilities as far as coverage, and the only difference is a superficial lockout on the Icom's  board.  But whether you modify it or not, it is still, when viewed as an rf generator,  physically capable of transmitting out of band, and without a lot of effort.  All the rf-generating parts are there intact to give it that capability.  The capability is what the Commission is choosing to focus on, not what you do or don't do with that capability.

And by the same argument, just because something CAN be programmed on the keypad to transmit out of band, does it mean it WILL be?  There isn't much difference in equipment that can easily be modified to TX "wherever" and equipment that can easily be programmed to do the same.   There are even probably some who would find it easier to modify your radio than to program one of these Chinese HT's, from what I've read about them.    

All of my gear is capable of transmitting out of ham bands.  A one stage oscillator is capable of transmitting out of ham bands depending on what crystal you use.  But none of my gear is VHF/UHF gear, so it falls outside of this enforcement advisory, which specifically mentions only  VHF/UHF 2 way radios.

The point here is that the operator should only be have to be concerned with what his radio does - with what he makes it do or allows it to do - not with what it "can" do, or whether-or not his gear is contraband.  We are obligated to abide by Part 97 when we operate, not to do so only with approved "products."  

It's out of the authority of the FCC to insist or claim that if some equipment can transmit on frequency A , that you may not transmit on frequency B with that same piece of equipment, when you are a licensed amteur and frequency B is an amateur frequency.  

Not to wish ill will, but would you want your fire department to miss a call when your house is on fire? Or get there too late for a trapped victim in the fire? Or the ambulance go to North Whatever Street and your on South Whatever Street due to interference? How about interfering with a business band repeater where people use the radios as part of making a living. Should we let others suffer so you can have a cheap Chinese toy with no restrictions? If you say yes, then you deserve the interference you get. Even when that interference moves into the ham bands. I am in the NO group for that question. In my 25 years on a fire department, I have seen the problem grow. I have even heard interference on the local school bus repeater. Is that the safety we want for our kids?

All of these things you have mentioned are very bad things no one wants and they should not happen.  And also they have been illegal for as long as anyone can remember, and these services have been interfered with long before these radios were ever invented or sold.  

Of course nobody should ever interfere with public safety channels.  Nobody should ever interfere with business channels.

But then of course, nobody should also drive their car off the road into a crowd of people either, but some people do, so why aren't we calling for a ban on steering wheels, and petitioning the government mandate us all into driverless autonomous cars?  If we're fear-mongering 'for the sake of the children' we might as well ban something that has actually killed more kids than QRM has: steering wheels.

I've written the ARRL asking for updates on their discussions with the FCC on this.  If they come through and force the commission to retract and reword this advisory, I may actually join.  

Until then:
"Psst!  Hey kid, over here, in this dark alley behind the flea market... Listen kid, you wanna buy some Baofengs?  I got the good stuff, man.  Pre-ban, unlocked VFO, talk on all the frequencies...I'll throw in some unpadded nuchucks and some black-cat firecrackers. "

My Icom just beeps at me if I try to transmit out of band. Actually so does my FT-897, FT-2800, FT-8800, and my IC-706. So please stop saying that I am doing something I am not. But it seems you are...double standard?

OK as you told me...turn in all your stuff that transmits out of band. Otherwise everything you said wasn't worth the time it took you to write it. If you want me to do it, then you should to. Or stop telling me what to do. Either will work. Have a nice day.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 10, 2018, 01:59:21 AM
My Icom just beeps at me if I try to transmit out of band. Actually so does my FT-897, FT-2800, FT-8800, and my IC-706. So please stop saying that I am doing something I am not. But it seems you are...double standard?

OK as you told me...turn in all your stuff that transmits out of band. Otherwise everything you said wasn't worth the time it took you to write it. If you want me to do it, then you should to. Or stop telling me what to do. Either will work. Have a nice day.

So you do try to transmit out of band, eh?  On all your nice radios, too?  Wow.  I don't.  I stay in band and operate within Part 97 rules even without the training wheels.  I guess the world is a safer place after all.

I guess I'm spitting into the wind, but I'll make this simple point one more time for posterity: There is absolutely nothing illegal or wrong with having or using equipment that can transmit out of band, and there never has been.

Do you really think there is?  Seriously?  Or are u  just trolling me?



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 10, 2018, 04:01:44 AM
My Icom just beeps at me if I try to transmit out of band. Actually so does my FT-897, FT-2800, FT-8800, and my IC-706. So please stop saying that I am doing something I am not. But it seems you are...double standard?

OK as you told me...turn in all your stuff that transmits out of band. Otherwise everything you said wasn't worth the time it took you to write it. If you want me to do it, then you should to. Or stop telling me what to do. Either will work. Have a nice day.

So you do try to transmit out of band, eh?  On all your nice radios, too?  Wow.  I don't.  I stay in band and operate within Part 97 rules even without the training wheels.  I guess the world is a safer place after all.

I guess I'm spitting into the wind, but I'll make this simple point one more time for posterity: There is absolutely nothing illegal or wrong with having or using equipment that can transmit out of band, and there never has been.

Do you really think there is?  Seriously?  Or are u  just trolling me?



Sure ya don't. LOL Like you never tested what could happen if you did. Let's just say I find that extremely hard to believe. Or you have no idea how equipment works and don't know you did. But that's your problem, not mine or anyone else's. None of us really cares because your operating is probably not causing the problems that the public use of Chinese toys are.

Yes, since you seem to have reading comprehension problems, I am serious about out of band operation. I find it to be a serious problem. And it is amplified by the proliferation of radios being sold to the general public with no limitations or safeguards. And I will make sure I never buy anything you built since you disregard the limits of the ham allocations. Just as I won't by the Chinese toys being sold just for that same reason. Ownership in itself is not the problem. Illegal operation of them is. But I would rather restrict sales then pretend there is no problem and let them sell to anyone radios that will operate where they shouldn't. Or unless you have the proper license for the frequency your trying to use, which then is not a problem anymore.

As you said, turn in your non certified out of band equipment. If not, don't tell me what to do. So are you done trolling now? Is my position clear now? Are you sure?


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6EM on October 10, 2018, 05:20:35 AM
Everyone here seems to have a piece of correctness, depending on circumstances.  Perhaps the offending manufacturer, Baofeng, should have thought things through as has been done here.  At least before agreeing to limit the VHF coverage of their UV5RV2 to 145 to 155MHz.  Who of us amateurs now would be so foolish as to buy such a radio?  Useless for use on 145MHz repeaters due to 144MHz inputs.  Useless for monitoring NOAA weather channels.  Useless for monitoring VHF marine channels.

And, while I'm at it, owning a rifle doesn't make one a murderer.  Nor, does use of one to slay a robber or burglar.

In case you all haven't looked lately, Part 97 does allow us to operate anywhere necessary in a serious crisis in a life/death situation.  Just like the ham with an "open" VHF HT did to communicate with a Coast Guard helo in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina.

Over the years I've owned and operated a lot of commercial gear for use on the VHF and UHF amateur bands.  Yes, I did program in transmit capability for marine channels since I lived near the Gulf of Mexico.  Both in my hand helds and mobiles.  No, I never used them as there were no crises that required it.  Only a listener.  But, if there were, I could.

The key to this is really the FCC's inability to enforce application/use.  While the number and availability of these cheap Chinese radios has exploded, the FCC's Enforcement Bureau has imploded and almost disappeared.

Personally, I'd like to know who it was that filed the complaint that the FCC acted upon.  Was it their "high-priced" competition?  Most likely, it was.  If the FCC were even a quarter of what it used to be, there would be scores of citations and forfeiture orders for those caught operating without licenses.  I guess I'm one of the few who is naive enough to still pay for a GMRS license so my family and I can legally use GMRS frequencies.  But, of course, today anyone can buy GMRS radios without a license these days and get away with using them without one.  Again, because the FCC isn't what it used to be....



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 10, 2018, 05:51:22 AM
Lee,

Great points.

I enjoy the flexibility of Part 90 certified UHF/VHF radios that work in the amateur bands. I can use them on my commercial repeater and still monitor and talk on the local ham repeaters.

I have no hesitation in buying any such radio now or in the future as long as it is Part 90 certified. If the FCC wants me to stop buying them, then they should yank their Part 90 certifications. Their overreaching notice does not deter me.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 10, 2018, 08:35:03 AM
Glenn,

Quote
One can even logically argue that out of band transmissions by amateurs is permitted by current FCC regulations under specific emergency conditions.

I quite agree.

Section 4.9 of the Radio Regulations (which are an international treaty which the US has signed up to) states

4.9      No provision of these Regulations prevents the use by a station in distress, or by a station providing assistance to it, of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to attract attention, make known the condition and location of the station in distress, and obtain or provide assistance.

which suggests that there is an implied duty to respond to a distress call if nobody else does.

Section 4.9 even implies that spark can be used by the station in distress if necessary!


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 10, 2018, 09:02:15 AM
Peter,

Thanks for the international perspective. We have very similar wording in Part 97. It includes the phrase "any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication". If we don't fight the FCC on this issue, we will soon have less means.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 10, 2018, 02:23:04 PM
Glenn,

It's interesting that many aircraft HF radios cover the whole HF range and not just the aeronautical bands. Similarly, there are marine HF radios that cover the whole HF range. Proper use is down to the operator........

The best answer for VHF is that Part 90 frequencies should be disabled, and fine the suppliers that supply ones that work, just as they do the CB shops selling amplifiers etc.. Over here, in some places, we do get hang gliders using 2m: apparently they get very upset when someone transmits over them.  I say Tough!

This FCC approach does theoretically limit the modification of wide ranging VHF/UHF gear.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 10, 2018, 02:33:56 PM
Peter,

Part 90 covers VHF and UHF frequencies.

What you suggest is what I think got away from the FCC because they were not following market trends. Motorola Part 90 radios, for example, could be programmed outside of Part 90 frequencies. But what kept this in check was a franchised dealer network that had a vested interest in following the regulations and the tight control by Motorola, in this example, of the software and hardware required to do the programming.

Once the market was opened by inexpensive radios that could be programmed with free software, the FCC had lost the control that the legacy marketplace maintained on their behalf. Now the FCC needs to directly deal with the problem that I believe they allowed to develop due to their lack of market diligence and lack of technical acumen.

They may be successful in wrestling this back into some type of control but their published Notice is not a durable approach. We have seen this play out before with their total inability to stop the CB linear amplifier marketplace that thrives today on the Internet.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WB0CJB on October 10, 2018, 03:29:56 PM
Just because the FCC says you can't sell, buy, or use such radios doesn't mean that everyone will immediately stop using them. Anyone who has bought one, whether they're a ham or not, will still use them. There is no way the FCC can enforce that rule. Ham radio equipment has been made for many many years that have been illegally modified for CB use (and abuse). If the FCC is so worried then they should have taken this issue up decades ago.

Rules are made. There will always be someone who will choose to ignore them time and time again.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AA4PB on October 10, 2018, 03:48:20 PM
What it will do is stop many of the big stores from advertising and selling them. They're the ones that the FCC will take the time to go after and make pay the big fines. The problem is that the sales people know nothing about the radio or the FCC rules regarding its operation and neither does the average customer. The instructions are: Press this button to turn it on, turn this button to set the same frequency as your buddie's radio. Push this button when you want to talk. No mention of frequency assignments, required licenses, etc.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 11, 2018, 11:41:31 AM
I have a selection of boat anchors that are all capable of transmitting outside of the amateur bands.  I just can't imagine though, why anyone in their right mind would want to.  What would be the purpose of transmitting out of band?  There is no one to talk to so it just seems really stupid to me.

 Anyway, as a conscientious amateur radio operator I never transmit outside of the legal amateur radio frequency allocations.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it is not legal and frankly an utterly stupid thing to do.  Even in an emergency you would have better results raising someone on the amateur bands than some unauthorized HF frequency.  The rationale being that, as and amateur radio operator, even in an emergency, if you don't try the ham bands first, then it can still be illegal to transmit outside of your allocation.  This has been proven in federal court more than once.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on October 11, 2018, 11:45:58 AM
I have a selection of boat anchors that are all capable of transmitting outside of the amateur bands.  I just can't imagine though, why anyone in their right mind would want to.  What would be the purpose of transmitting out of band?  There is no one to talk to so it just seems really stupid to me.

 Anyway, as a conscientious amateur radio operator I never transmit outside of the legal amateur radio frequency allocations.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it is not legal and frankly an utterly stupid thing to do.  Even in an emergency you would have better results raising someone on the amateur bands than some unauthorized HF frequency.  The rationale being that, as and amateur radio operator, even in an emergency, if you don't try the ham bands first, then it can still be illegal to transmit outside of your allocation.  This has been proven in federal court more than once.

While I appreciate your perspective, I am not aware of any case law regarding your last assertion. Can you back this up with citations?

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 11, 2018, 12:54:34 PM
I have a selection of boat anchors that are all capable of transmitting outside of the amateur bands.  I just can't imagine though, why anyone in their right mind would want to.  What would be the purpose of transmitting out of band?  There is no one to talk to so it just seems really stupid to me.

 Anyway, as a conscientious amateur radio operator I never transmit outside of the legal amateur radio frequency allocations.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it is not legal and frankly an utterly stupid thing to do.  Even in an emergency you would have better results raising someone on the amateur bands than some unauthorized HF frequency.  The rationale being that, as and amateur radio operator, even in an emergency, if you don't try the ham bands first, then it can still be illegal to transmit outside of your allocation.  This has been proven in federal court more than once.

While I appreciate your perspective, I am not aware of any case law regarding your last assertion. Can you back this up with citations?

- Glenn W9IQ

Without doing your homework for you, a couple that come to mind were a ham who was transmitting on US Coast Guard frequencies during the hurricane in Louisiana a few years back.  Another involved a ham in San Diego county who transmitted on the Sheriffs frequency to report a hiking injury, even though he had access to amateur repeaters.  Both cases involved modified amateur radio equipment.  Both cases resulted in legal action, I don't recall the outcome of either case.  There are plenty of other instances of hams doing similar ignorant antics over the years.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 12, 2018, 02:57:14 AM
I've emailed the ARRL on this, and they have nothing to say, yet.  When they have something they can share, they will post it on their site,  per Asst Sec. Dan Henderson N1ND.

My final take on this advisory is that it is illegal, at least as it pertains to Part 97.  I think amateurs got dragged into this chinese radio mess as an exception, and the FCC doesn't quite know how to handle the exception. 

Nothing in Part 97 requires an Amateur to operate only with certified or type accepted gear on amateur bands, and this advisory does not change the law, it simply misinterprets it in a vague memo.

As an amateur operator, I think it would be prudent and relatively safe, in operating, to simply continue to adhere to Part 97 regarding your transmissions, which means that then you transmit within the ham bands, continue to use whatever gear you wish to use, as hams have done for decades, regardless of whatever else it can or can't do, in a legal manner compliant with those rules. 


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: G3RZP on October 12, 2018, 05:37:54 AM
Interesting. Back in 1953, there was a major storm surge in the North Sea, which caused a lot of deaths in the Netherlands and quite a few in the UK. The storm surge  came over the sea wall at Trusthorpe on the Lincolnshire coast and flooded the coastal radio station Humber Radio, GKZ, putting it off the air. This left no coastal  radio station between the tip of Kent and just north of Newcastle - a distance of over 300 Miles. There were ships at sea transmitting Mayday calls on 2182kHz with no replies, so a couple of amateurs tweaked their 10 watt 160m AM tx's up to the distress frequency, acknowledged the distress calls and passed the information to the Coastguard and lifeboats.

The authorities accepted that; in fact, official Handbook for Radio Operators says that "The obligation to accept distress and messages is absolute in the case of every station without distinction, and such messages must be accepted with priority over all other messages: they must be answered and the necessary steps must immediately be taken to give effect to them."

The ironic point was that 6 months earlier, the RSGB had suggested to the Licencing Authority the setting up a radio amateur emergency network, and were told that it was 'not necessary because existing systems are adequate'.....



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on October 12, 2018, 11:57:39 AM
Another point I think others have made about the concern on the clause that you can't operate radios that are "capable of operating" outside of amateur bands is rather ambiguous.

I believe many commercial amateur radios have just firmware settings (or some very minor components) keeping them from operating outside of bands.  In theory those radios could be tweaked to operate outside of bands as well.  There are many examples of this like the MARS frequencies that amateurs sometimes modify to use.  So are now even commercial radio's covered by this advisory making nearly every ham usage illegal?

If not, if a baofeng/other radio were sold with the firmware defaulted to amateur bands, would that be enough?  Or would it still be considered capable of operating outside of bands since you can use CHIRP to modify? Where do you draw the line on "capable of operating" ?

Amateurs buy and sell kit radios they build that are capable of operating outside bands all of the times, making any of those illegal to use.


I think the fcc should focus on making sure radios capable of operating outside of bands are only marketed to licensed ham operators. For enforcement they can fine sellers if marketed illegally, and use the cash to fund their enforcement further.  I guess they could go as far as they do for some high power amplifiers and require confirming the license of a buyer perhaps? (I think that's required for some amplifiers right?)






Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KA4DPO on October 12, 2018, 12:19:08 PM
Interesting. Back in 1953, there was a major storm surge in the North Sea, which caused a lot of deaths in the Netherlands and quite a few in the UK. The storm surge  came over the sea wall at Trusthorpe on the Lincolnshire coast and flooded the coastal radio station Humber Radio, GKZ, putting it off the air. This left no coastal  radio station between the tip of Kent and just north of Newcastle - a distance of over 300 Miles. There were ships at sea transmitting Mayday calls on 2182kHz with no replies, so a couple of amateurs tweaked their 10 watt 160m AM tx's up to the distress frequency, acknowledged the distress calls and passed the information to the Coastguard and lifeboats.

The authorities accepted that; in fact, official Handbook for Radio Operators says that "The obligation to accept distress and messages is absolute in the case of every station without distinction, and such messages must be accepted with priority over all other messages: they must be answered and the necessary steps must immediately be taken to give effect to them."

The ironic point was that 6 months earlier, the RSGB had suggested to the Licencing Authority the setting up a radio amateur emergency network, and were told that it was 'not necessary because existing systems are adequate'.....



First of all the dire emergency clause is still in existence, here in the US at least and I suspect in the UK as well.  That is not an excuse to transmit or attempt to communicate with stations outside of legally allocated amateur bands unless it really is a dire emergency.

Now about that RSGB proposal.  That was 1953 and this is now.  There is simply no way to compare things because at that time there was almost no difference between amateur and commercial marine equipment.  That is no longer the case, an integrated HF/satellite shipboard communications system can run close to a hundred thousand dollars on the big ships and even smaller commercial vessels have far better equipment than they had 65 years ago.

Sorry, but that was a really poor example.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6EM on October 13, 2018, 03:19:55 PM
I have a selection of boat anchors that are all capable of transmitting outside of the amateur bands.  I just can't imagine though, why anyone in their right mind would want to.  What would be the purpose of transmitting out of band?  There is no one to talk to so it just seems really stupid to me.

 Anyway, as a conscientious amateur radio operator I never transmit outside of the legal amateur radio frequency allocations.  Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it is not legal and frankly an utterly stupid thing to do.  Even in an emergency you would have better results raising someone on the amateur bands than some unauthorized HF frequency.  The rationale being that, as and amateur radio operator, even in an emergency, if you don't try the ham bands first, then it can still be illegal to transmit outside of your allocation.  This has been proven in federal court more than once.
I detest trolls, and I suspect, seriously, that is your intent.  But, in the interest of enlightening you, I'll rudely take issue with your claim(s).  I'm not the gentleman that W9IQ and G3RZP both are.

To my knowledge, no one, especially the amateur who communicated with a Coast Guard helo during Hurricane Katrina, if that's who you are referring to, to coordinate rescue operations received anything besides a thank you.  Perhaps he deserved a Presidential citation from George Bush for helping save lives.  I seriously doubt that any repeater was around with any better means to assist the Coast Guard in rescue was available.  No telephone service, either landline or cell was available.

As for your supposed cites, here are two sections of the Code of Federal Regulations, 41CFRPart 97, verbatim, which permit an amateur station to transmit anywhere, to any station in distress, or where life and property are endangered to summon assistance.  Next time you want to cite something, either bring the evidence to back up your claim or remain a listener.  Belittling someone because it happened in the 1950's doesn't mean it won't happen again.  Satellite dishes fly off in high winds.  Towers go down in high winds.  And, generators with auto transfer switches that happen to start when utility power fails to power destroyed infrastructure are worthless.......



§ 97.403 Safety of life and protection of property.
No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station of any means of radiocommunication at its disposal to provide essential communication
needs in connection with the immediate safety of human life and immediate protection of property when normal communication systems are not available.
§ 97.405 Station in distress.
(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition
and location, and obtain assistance.
(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a) of this section, of any
means of radiocommunications at its disposal to assist a station in distress.



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6EM on October 14, 2018, 01:49:43 PM
"REPORT OF THE INDEPENDENT PANEL REVIEWING THE IMPACT OF HURRICANE KATRINA  OPN COMMUNICATIONS NETWORKS.     Issued June 12, 2006

REPORT AND RECOMMENDATIONS TO THE FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION

RECOMMENDATIONS
…..
3.  Pre-Positioning for FCC Regulatory Requirements – An A-Priori Program for Disaster Areas --- The FCC should explore amending its rules to permit automatic grants of certain types of waivers or Special Temporary Authority (STA) in a particular area if the President declares that area to be a “disaster area”…..

b. Wireless

i.    Waiver of amateur radio and license exempt rules permitting transmissions necessary to meet essential communications needs.


The panel was commissioned by the FCC to review what transpired surrounding the response to Hurricane Katrina.  An example of a Coast Guard helo having to drop a note in a bottle to communicate with someone on the ground was but one example of "communications failure."


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W0BKR on October 14, 2018, 05:07:59 PM
Kinda reminds me of CBers can use amateur radio transceivers on CB band...that was really enforced...LOL


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: JAZZMAN on October 14, 2018, 05:15:39 PM
yeah what exactly are we scared of enforcement wise.  I apologize the FCC says a lot of things but don't enforce a lot of things.  So what are you all scared about using these non-certified radios on amateur bands?   


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 15, 2018, 01:24:56 AM
yeah what exactly are we scared of enforcement wise.  I apologize the FCC says a lot of things but don't enforce a lot of things.  So what are you all scared about using these non-certified radios on amateur bands?  

I'm not scared of the FCC enforcing these radios in the field, I'm scared of all of their 'little helpers' in the community.

Some Fud: "That's great you got your ticket, Timmy.  I own FT-897, FT-2800, FT-8800, and my IC-706! Durrrrp! So, what accepted name brand kind of appliance rig do you have?"

Timmy: "I saved up all my allowance and got a Baofeng, sir."

Some Fud: "Well get off my repeater and mow a few more lawns, Timmy, your CHEAP CHINESE PIECE OF JUNK IS EEEEEEEEE-LEGAL!!!  If I hear you again I'm reporting you to da FCC!"

Timmy: (Leaves amateur radio and plays Fortnite instead, but later supports a proposal to repurpose the whole amateur spectrum to some wireless internet service)

Some Fud: "Well, back to you Ted..."


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 15, 2018, 03:30:50 AM
Well if someone had approached me like that, rudely, when I first got my license, I probably would have given up being a ham too. But knowing what I know now, your threat has as much weight for FCC action as a feather in a hurricane. And as for the rudeness, well I come to expect that from some.

Plus you keep missing the point. (Still suffering reading comprehension problems.) It isn't hams owning them (for the most part) being a problem. It is the uncontrolled sale to people with no license or knowledge of use in the general public. They can't use them in the ham bands nor can the use them in the commercial/government allocations, except for a few public use channels that they probably have no clue on their use.

BTW AD8CC, did you turn in your out of band equipment yet that you say I should do? Not yet? What you waiting for? I'm gonna call the FCC! Yea that will get some action. LOL Stop preachin if you not gonna practice what you preach.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WZ7U on October 15, 2018, 11:49:47 AM
You guys are, well, [redacted].  :D


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: AD8CC on October 15, 2018, 04:03:04 PM
And as for the rudeness, well I come to expect that from some.

Why am I not surprised? :D

Plus you keep missing the point. (Still suffering reading comprehension problems.) It isn't hams owning them (for the most part) being a problem. It is the uncontrolled sale to people with no license or knowledge of use in the general public. They can't use them in the ham bands nor can the use them in the commercial/government allocations, except for a few public use channels that they probably have no clue on their use.

No Stan I think it's you who is mis-comprehending the point here.  I'll use bullet points this time to make it easier.   

*This is not the "should they sell baofengs to the public?" thread.  This discussion is not about how people use these radios outside of amateur radio at all.  Maybe let the thread title clue you in: (reading comprehension.)  This is a ham radio forum, discussing ham radio topics, not 'general public talking on fire frequencies" topics.

*This thread is about the 2 million (or so) of these radios that are already in general circulation, not whether they should sell more of them, not whether they should block them to ham only frequencies, not whether they should require proof of a license, etc.  Still with me?

*These radios (the ones that are here already) work on amateur frequencies, as well as others.  But obviously use by an amateur, on the amateur frequencies, is the only legitimate use for them, (or was.)  They should be grabbed up and creative uses found for them by amateurs.

*Despite whatever banal tropes outlaw CB radio culture may have instilled in your blood before you went all high-class, there really is no such thing as an "illegal radio" in the amateur radio service. There never has been, and never should be.  Our rules dictate our operating modes and practices, not our gear.  I always thought this was pretty essential.

*Any amateur is legally permitted to use these radios on the ham bands under Part 97 rules, just as well as any radio that is capable of transmitting on any known frequency,  or indeed any found object he might wish - if can possibly manipulate so as to emit RF, on these bands.  If you can make an avocado transmit, you may go on the air with it.   That is the entire reason for the existence of the amateur bands, not as a chatroom to talk with your buddies on $2000 toys, about your $2000 toys.  And it doesn't matter if the avocado can transmit on other bands as well.  It only matters if you transmit on those bands with your avocado.  This principle is the core essence of ham radio.  (Ham and avocado?  mmmm.)

*This 'advisory' contradicts Part 97, or claims to supersede it.  Now, suddenly, for the first time in 100+ years of the ARS, we are being told what equipment we may not legally use on our bands, with our tickets, in total violation of the laws that govern us.  This is a huge deal.  Such a thing probably hasn't happened since spark was banned, (and 4 watts of VHF fm phone is not spark, so don't even.)

*ergo: This little cute manipulation of the law intended to get rid of these Chinese radios is actually kicking out the central pillar of the amateur radio service, and is not acceptable.   Supporting it is wrong.

If we aren't the problem, why the need to destroy our century-old tradition that is core to the service?


BTW AD8CC, did you turn in your out of band equipment yet that you say I should do? Not yet? What you waiting for? I'm gonna call the FCC! Yea that will get some action. LOL Stop preachin if you not gonna practice what you preach.

Don't bother, Stan. I voluntarily turned all my naughty toys into the authorities. 

The enforcement team came in their SWAT van, and I surrendered all the crystals out of my junkbox that weren't in the ham bands in their fundamentals.  Can't be trusted with that. 

Also, gave them my magnet wire and toroid cores, lest I wind an insidious inductor and create a terrible-tuned LC circuit that could possibly resonate out of band, variable caps too.   Anything that could be used to make a villainous VFO, had to go, lest I make an  outrageous oscillator that could tune to unspeakable places, banned bands, and forbidden frequencies. They promised not to charge me with possession of this contraband if I let it go without a fuss.

And my evil arduino and si5351 chips, well, they can theoretically oscillate on any frequency, so they had to go to the incinerator, until the makers of the chips can find ones that have all non-ham frequencies blocked out on a molecular chip level.

I told them how easily your Yaesu HT could be modded, and they were very interested... :-*.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9FIB on October 15, 2018, 08:52:12 PM
No Stan I think it's you who is mis-comprehending the point here. 

LOL That a lot of writing defending the un-defendable...LOL

I do reserve the right to hold my opinion as a former civil servant as to what I see is the problem and can offer what I think is a solution. Doesn't mean change will happen, but I can keep trying. But my opinion is based on what I see happening quite often in this area.

Here it is...Just like illegal aliens; illegal transmitters need to be stopped at the border. Or like many other things, properly regulated and sold only to those who hold authorization to use the transmitters legally. That's it. That's all. A cave man can understand it.

No matter how much BS you pile on it, that's what I believe and will continue to believe...just like I have stated many times.

BTW in this case, I support the FCC. Not the freebanders and illegal operators of all types. Period. It's that simple. Operate within the rules, and you will get no grief from me. Try to BS me, well that's a horse of a different color.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on November 24, 2018, 09:43:57 PM

There was mention of this in the November 1st arrl letter

http://www.arrl.org/arrlletter?issue=2018-11-01

Basically just said they are waiting for a response from the FCC.

Another example of the concern is the popular ubitx boards for building a radio, it can operator on virtually any frequency in HF and can likely be expanded to operate VHF and UHF.



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: K1FBI on November 25, 2018, 02:46:56 PM
I don't know about their radios but most Hams are certifiable!


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KB2CRK on November 25, 2018, 04:59:48 PM
I don't know about their radios but most Hams are certifiable!


I may be crazy but I am not insane


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: N0XAX on November 26, 2018, 11:22:24 PM
The genie has been out of the bottle way to long!  The FCC has again demonstrated how inept they really are! The FCC never ceases to amaze me with their stupidity! Ok, let's let the Chinese flood our market here with non-type accepted transceivers for a few years. What could be the harm in that? (smile)  Sheer stupidity! And now they want to put the genie back in his bottle? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W3DBB on November 28, 2018, 04:47:29 AM
Right.


I had always thought, if you are going to regulate something, you ought to know something about it.

Apparently I was wrong.      :(


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KB2CRK on November 28, 2018, 07:55:53 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe there is a certifcation for amateur gear. As we can build our own, Modify other radios to use on the amateur bands and experiment on bands that have no commercial equipment available how can there be one? we do have to make sure we do not interfere or transmit out of band but that has nothing to do with certification. The cheap chinese radios are perfectly legal as long as you make sure yours is not transmitting spurious emmisions. sometimes correcting that is nothing more than turning down the power as any over driven rig could have spurs all over the place.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: N0XAX on November 28, 2018, 08:23:55 PM
Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe there is a certifcation for amateur gear. As we can build our own, Modify other radios to use on the amateur bands and experiment on bands that have no commercial equipment available how can there be one? we do have to make sure we do not interfere or transmit out of band but that has nothing to do with certification. The cheap chinese radios are perfectly legal as long as you make sure yours is not transmitting spurious emmisions. sometimes correcting that is nothing more than turning down the power as any over driven rig could have spurs all over the place.

You are right sir, amateur operators can run whatever they want, and long as we use "good radio standards" ie emissions, power, frequency, etc. So why in this point in time is the fcc so concerned about what equipment amateur operators are using? It simply makes no sense? The cheap Chinese radios have been dumped. They should be concerned with unlicensed operators using this type of equipment, not amateur radio operators. I simply don't get it?


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KB2CRK on November 29, 2018, 02:14:25 AM
Correct me if I am wrong but I do not believe there is a certifcation for amateur gear. As we can build our own, Modify other radios to use on the amateur bands and experiment on bands that have no commercial equipment available how can there be one? we do have to make sure we do not interfere or transmit out of band but that has nothing to do with certification. The cheap chinese radios are perfectly legal as long as you make sure yours is not transmitting spurious emmisions. sometimes correcting that is nothing more than turning down the power as any over driven rig could have spurs all over the place.

You are right sir, amateur operators can run whatever they want, and long as we use "good radio standards" ie emissions, power, frequency, etc. So why in this point in time is the fcc so concerned about what equipment amateur operators are using? It simply makes no sense? The cheap Chinese radios have been dumped. They should be concerned with unlicensed operators using this type of equipment, not amateur radio operators. I simply don't get it?

As an amateur I am not worried about it. How will the FCC come after those who are using Cheap Chinese radios when they hardly enforce interference and broadcasting rules. Honestly I do not have any of the CCRs and instead use Cheap Motorola Relics, some with modifications and most are not narrow band compliant. Yes the FCCC needs to crack down on the unlicensed operators who believe these things are CBs


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: N5INP on November 29, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
I searched Part 97 and the only certification it talks about is certification of RF amplifiers if manufactured or imported for use at an amateur radio station . Even so, if you modify it then that restriction goes away too - IT DOES NOT THEN APPLY ANY LONGER.

Even if the FCC police roaming your 'hood caught you with one of the radios in question, all you need do is tell them you are a ham using it in the ham bands which don't require a certified radio. They would then say "Sorry to bother you have a nice day".


§97.315 Certification of external RF power amplifiers.

(a) Any external RF power amplifier (see §2.815 of the FCC Rules) must be
certificated for use in the amateur service in accordance with subpart J of part 2 of the FCC Rules. No amplifier capable of operation below 144 MHz
may be constructed or modified by a non-amateur service licensee without a grant of certification from the FCC.
(b) The requirement of paragraph (a) does not apply if one or more of the following conditions are met:
(1) The amplifier is constructed or modified by an amateur radio operator for use at an amateur station.
(2) The amplifier was manufactured before April 28, 1978, and has been issued a marketing waiver by the FCC, or the amplifier was purchased
before April 28, 1978, by an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.
(3) The amplifier is sold to an amateur radio operator or to a dealer, the amplifier is purchased in used condition by a dealer, or the amplifier is
sold to an amateur radio operator for use at that operator's station.
(c) Any external RF power amplifier appearing in the Commission's database as certificated for use in the amateur service may be marketed for
use in the amateur service.

[71 FR 66465, Nov. 15, 2006]


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WD4ED on November 29, 2018, 06:25:56 AM
Since the consensus (and incorrectly IMHO) here is that hams don't need FCC certification to operate equipment, I guess companies like Yaesu, Kenwood and Icom are simply stupid for allowing themselves to be subjected to such processes.  

There are also other laws potentially involved.  I was told on "the Zed" that "there's no such thing as a illegal radio"!  Sound familiar?  That's not true.  The label "export only" radio is not originated at the FCC.  It's a customs issue.  The radios should not  be marketed to the public in this country.  The radios are contraband.  These cheap Chinese radios could easily be categorized the same way, if not already.  Because they are contraband they still may not be legal for hams to possess and use.  Make any modification to it to operate on legal amateur bands and you are probably fine.  If a ham can turn contraband into a legal radio would be a debatable point.  But would anybody actually be cited for it?  Probably not.  Personally, I configure my station to without question, pass a mythical "random station inspection".

When I first got back into ham radio I was stunned to see that these radios could transmit anywhere.  Either they flew completely under the RADAR or somebody, somewhere was looking the other way.  I'm not surprised that it's finally be addressed.  I also think that it's no coincidence.  I'll wager it was a large marketer of FCC authorized equipment who got tired of losing sales.  Also consider the recent political scrutiny of Chinese imports.  Combine the probable complaints and political scrutiny and you now have what it takes to make the government to care.  

But... then there is enforceability.  Once bought and possessed by a citizen user the odds of prosecution is zip.  Even if you are caught using them to, let's say coordinate drug trafficking as an example.  The odds as still pretty much zero.  Like drugs, it's more efficient to go after the importers and sales distribution point.  Go after those who profit from them.  

Operate yours responsibly and the world will probably never know or care.

Even if software locked to transmit on Ham Bands only, would they pass FCC scrutiny?  Would that force out of banders into ham bands?

But getting a new one in the future may get a little harder or more expensive.    

Thanks,

Ed


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W6BP on November 29, 2018, 10:47:35 AM
I searched Part 97 and the only certification it talks about is certification of RF amplifiers if manufactured or imported for use at an amateur radio station . Even so, if you modify it then that restriction goes away too - IT DOES NOT THEN APPLY ANY LONGER.

The thing is, this kerfuffle has nothing to do with Part 97. The FCC is interpreting its regulations to mean that if (a) a radio has the ability to transmit on the frequency of a service that requires certification and (b) it does not have that certification, then that radio cannot be legally sold or used in the US for any purpose. If the ARRL has made inroads against this interpretation, I'm unaware of it.

I am not defending this interpretation. Nor do I think that this will ultimately affect any hams who have bought and are using these radios, as there are far too many of them to cite, particularly when one considers the FCC's minuscule enforcement budget. If the interpretation does stand, I think it'll affect only manufacturers and resellers, who will either have to get certification for whatever non-ham services their equipment can transmit on, or restrict the transmit frequencies to ham frequencies only. 












Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on November 30, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
It's even worse than I thought the FCC is saying if your home brew radio could operate outside of amateur bands you need to have your radio tested for type certification. (Though sounds like a catch 22 as once type certified it becomes uncertified if it can operate on ham bands.) So basically making any radios that could illegal with no workaround.


In the first link I posted in this forum thread,  the blogger posted an update with an actual youtube recording of a call with the FCC where the rep actually states that.

So by that ubitx is illegal to use without certification.
Any radio modified from another band to work in an amateur band is apparently also illegal.


I think the arrl really needs to get more involved here to get this clarified.  Most homebrew radios would likely all be illegal without certification by the FCC.

Here is the original link:
https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5

Here is the call within that page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=479&v=i248EzJtNlE



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WA2ISE on November 30, 2018, 02:15:16 PM
... Nor do I think that this will ultimately affect any hams who have bought and are using these radios, as there are far too many of them to cite, particularly when one considers the FCC's minuscule enforcement budget.

And how could the FCC tell if a ham is using such a radio?  If that ham is behaving himself, and the radio doesn't splatter or have excessive harmonics on the ham band, the FCC couldn't tell anyway. 









[/quote]


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on November 30, 2018, 05:25:16 PM
It's even worse than I thought the FCC is saying if your home brew radio could operate outside of amateur bands you need to have your radio tested for type certification. (Though sounds like a catch 22 as once type certified it becomes uncertified if it can operate on ham bands.) So basically making any radios that could illegal with no workaround.


In the first link I posted in this forum thread,  the blogger posted an update with an actual youtube recording of a call with the FCC where the rep actually states that.

So by that ubitx is illegal to use without certification.
Any radio modified from another band to work in an amateur band is apparently also illegal.


I think the arrl really needs to get more involved here to get this clarified.  Most homebrew radios would likely all be illegal without certification by the FCC.

Here is the original link:
https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5

Here is the call within that page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=479&v=i248EzJtNlE



It seems FCC does not understand that almost by the very nature of a home brew radio can be operated out of band.

Here is a sort of summary of what the FCC rep states in that call:
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
If home brew can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
It is illegal to import, sell, manufacture and USE radio’s like the Chinese radio’s that can be used out of band. 
That is in Section 302 of the communications act.
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
  If they can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
Section 97-101 says amateurs are responsible for being in compliance of “ALL” commission rules (which includes the rules that say anything that can transmit out of band is illegal to operate without being type certified.) Also includes part 2 that deals with certification.
You should use radio’s that can only operate in amateur radio bands.
There is no exemption in the rules for an amateur modifying a radio that can operate in other bands.
Part 95 radio’s modified to work on other bands, would lose their certification


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: KB2CRK on December 01, 2018, 06:10:41 AM
It's even worse than I thought the FCC is saying if your home brew radio could operate outside of amateur bands you need to have your radio tested for type certification. (Though sounds like a catch 22 as once type certified it becomes uncertified if it can operate on ham bands.) So basically making any radios that could illegal with no workaround.


In the first link I posted in this forum thread,  the blogger posted an update with an actual youtube recording of a call with the FCC where the rep actually states that.

So by that ubitx is illegal to use without certification.
Any radio modified from another band to work in an amateur band is apparently also illegal.


I think the arrl really needs to get more involved here to get this clarified.  Most homebrew radios would likely all be illegal without certification by the FCC.

Here is the original link:
https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5

Here is the call within that page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=479&v=i248EzJtNlE



It seems FCC does not understand that almost by the very nature of a home brew radio can be operated out of band.

Here is a sort of summary of what the FCC rep states in that call:
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
If home brew can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
It is illegal to import, sell, manufacture and USE radio’s like the Chinese radio’s that can be used out of band. 
That is in Section 302 of the communications act.
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
  If they can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
Section 97-101 says amateurs are responsible for being in compliance of “ALL” commission rules (which includes the rules that say anything that can transmit out of band is illegal to operate without being type certified.) Also includes part 2 that deals with certification.
You should use radio’s that can only operate in amateur radio bands.
There is no exemption in the rules for an amateur modifying a radio that can operate in other bands.
Part 95 radio’s modified to work on other bands, would lose their certification


According to that description there are very few radios that are legal for use in ham radio. Many of them will transmit out of band right out of the box. I guess MARS will have to be shut down because it requires amateur equipment capable of transmitting out of band.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on December 01, 2018, 07:52:03 AM
It's even worse than I thought the FCC is saying if your home brew radio could operate outside of amateur bands you need to have your radio tested for type certification. (Though sounds like a catch 22 as once type certified it becomes uncertified if it can operate on ham bands.) So basically making any radios that could illegal with no workaround.


In the first link I posted in this forum thread,  the blogger posted an update with an actual youtube recording of a call with the FCC where the rep actually states that.

So by that ubitx is illegal to use without certification.
Any radio modified from another band to work in an amateur band is apparently also illegal.


I think the arrl really needs to get more involved here to get this clarified.  Most homebrew radios would likely all be illegal without certification by the FCC.

Here is the original link:
https://medium.com/@lucky225/fcc-back-peddles-all-transceivers-capable-of-transmitting-on-frequencies-that-require-40377a3722c5

Here is the call within that page:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=479&v=i248EzJtNlE



It seems FCC does not understand that almost by the very nature of a home brew radio can be operated out of band.

Here is a sort of summary of what the FCC rep states in that call:
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
If home brew can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
It is illegal to import, sell, manufacture and USE radio’s like the Chinese radio’s that can be used out of band. 
That is in Section 302 of the communications act.
Home brew radio’s are only exempt from certification if they can only operate in the amateur radio bands.
  If they can go beyond amateur bands they must be type certified.
Section 97-101 says amateurs are responsible for being in compliance of “ALL” commission rules (which includes the rules that say anything that can transmit out of band is illegal to operate without being type certified.) Also includes part 2 that deals with certification.
You should use radio’s that can only operate in amateur radio bands.
There is no exemption in the rules for an amateur modifying a radio that can operate in other bands.
Part 95 radio’s modified to work on other bands, would lose their certification


According to that description there are very few radios that are legal for use in ham radio. Many of them will transmit out of band right out of the box. I guess MARS will have to be shut down because it requires amateur equipment capable of transmitting out of band.

You bring up a great point about MARS that is an excellent argument that could be used with the FCC to argue against this advisory/rule.


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on December 01, 2018, 10:05:11 AM
Since the FCC lacks the regulations to enforce their over reaching notice as it relates to amateur radio, there is no need to be concerned about viable enforcement actions. We should, however, be diligent with regard to changes in the regulations to support their premise.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on December 01, 2018, 10:34:21 AM
Since the FCC lacks the regulations to enforce their over reaching notice as it relates to amateur radio, there is no need to be concerned about viable enforcement actions. We should, however, be diligent with regard to changes in the regulations to support their premise.

- Glenn W9IQ

Granted it was just one rep in that call, but if you listen to the call she seems pretty certain that they do have the regulations to enforce this (and she cites the regs on the call). I'm not a lawyer so I have no idea if that would actually hold up in court but actions happen before things make it to court. Just seems the whole thing spells trouble if we don't get it cleared up.



Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: W9IQ on December 01, 2018, 10:42:09 AM
That call is completely meaningless. The FCC has repeatedly cautioned, and cited, persons that have relied on the advice of FCC staffers. FCC staffer's comments, interpretations, and guidance are not suitable as an assertive defense.

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: (Article link) FCC states can't use non-certified radios on amateur bands?
Post by: WXSHAM on December 01, 2018, 11:02:45 AM
That call is completely meaningless. The FCC has repeatedly cautioned, and cited, persons that have relied on the advice of FCC staffers. FCC staffer's comments, interpretations, and guidance are not suitable as an assertive defense.

- Glenn W9IQ

Yep that is typical with most government agencies.  Lucky said in the comments on his site Laura is "Special Counsel for the Enforcement Bureau, her name appears on every Notice of Apparent Liability sent out in the last few years.."