eHam

eHam Forums => Misc => Topic started by: KC8KTN on December 10, 2018, 11:24:08 AM



Title: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 10, 2018, 11:24:08 AM
I am hoping the Arrl is going through with what i have read and heard on 80 meters last night on a net that i was apart of to make the Extra test easier. We are not Nasa Astronauts come on . Most hams buy there radios anymore not build them. Just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the holidays coming up. 73s Nuff said....


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 10, 2018, 12:42:56 PM
I think your "onion" is just a bit smelly.

None of the ham exams is difficult. I read recently about a (admittedly sharp) nine-year-old who passed his Extra exam. I don't know whether this same
nine-year-old would be capable of delivering an interesting lecture on complex impedance to an audience of RF, or just electronic, engineers.

All that said, the ham exams do have at least the virtue of encouraging hobbyists to learn a little bit about the language and thinking of RF engineering and data- and math-based science.

A not-unreasonable alternative, of course, is to eliminate the exams completely. The anarchist notion which assumes a high level of engagement
and ethical behavior on the part of most of us is a worthy idea.

I love the idealism of anarchism, but in practice in this real world it won't work very well I'm afraid.

A little bit of regulation, like the ham exams, can be, and I would argue is, very useful. Some order is better than none.

Anyone can pass the general or tech exams which give plenty of privileges for people who want to mess around with electricity or learn how to operate a radio under adverse conditions.

Last, the exams do provide, and define, a space in the hobby for the significant proportion (maybe 10%) of us who can solve difficult design problems and provide the rest of us with new ways of thinking. I appreciate those folks and want to do everything I can to keep them involved.

Thus exams are fine. I also think that if certain parts of the exams are difficult or not-very-useful, then the OP can make specific suggestions for improvement.  


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: ND6M on December 10, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
Since when is the A@@L in charge of testing?... Oh yeah, you heard it on 80 meters.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on December 10, 2018, 01:06:07 PM
I am hoping the Arrl is going through with what i have read and heard on 80 meters last night on a net that i was apart of to make the Extra test easier. We are not Nasa Astronauts come on . Most hams buy there radios anymore not build them. Just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the holidays coming up. 73s Nuff said....

Rather than relying on hearsay and looking for shortcuts, just study. Just my opinion.   ;)



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8Y on December 10, 2018, 01:15:43 PM
I totally do NOT believe, what I just read.

"...EASIER..." seems like this guy, wants something for nothing; EARNNNN  WHAT YOU WANT!!!!!!
Was a little surprised when I read about dropping the code.  Think the FCC should have, a least kept a lower CW requirement for the extra.

Ken KC8Y


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K6CPO on December 10, 2018, 03:01:43 PM
If I can pass all three exams, anyone can...


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K7MEM on December 10, 2018, 03:47:44 PM
Some time in 1998, it was obvious to me that the code requirements were going to be dropped. When it happened, I was not surprised. But that's when I decided to upgrade to Extra. For me, it was something I always wanted to do, but just couldn't find the time. I realized, if I put it off any longer, I would never realize that goal.

It took about a month to get my code up to the required 20 WPM. I got it up to 25, just to be safe. I had to take the Advanced and Extra written tests, back to back. To get ready for the written tests, all I did was read through the question pool and take a few on-line tests. So in early 1999 I walked into a VEC test session as a General and walked out an Extra.

Now, I don't advocate bringing back the Morse Code tests. I enjoy working CW, but the tests are gone and it's time to get over it. The code tests are not coming back. It would cost way too much money to reinstate the code testing. I still have my CSCIs from my tests, so I'm not worried.

When I took the Morse Code test, I did find it interesting. Usually, the code test is very stressful. But I was up on my code and found the test to be pretty easy. That gave me a little time to observe what was going on around me. I think there was 8 of us taking the code test. That meant that everyone at the table already passed all the written tests. The VEs would not let you take the Morse code test, unless you had already passed the necessary written tests.

sWhen I tested, Several of the test takers, were only there for the code test. They had previously taken the test, but failed. One of the test takers had practiced copying with a keyboard. So the VEs set him up with a keyboard and monitor. Everything seemed to be handled by the VEs. Everyone seemed to be calm, until the test started.

When the test started, everyone started scribbling on the paper provided. Except for the keyboard guy, he was pecking at the keyboard. I just wrote down what I heard. The test was only about 5 minutes long, but there was a lot of frenzied writing. The guy on the keyboard became frantic. This was his third attempt at the code test. Finally pushed the keyboard aside and started writing.

In a couple of minutes, the test was over. We were given a 10 question test, that was based on the previous 5 minutes of code. At this point, all you needed to pass the test was one minute of solid copy, or get 7 of the 10 questions correct. Piece of cake, huh?

Well, it turned out that, I was the only one that passed. They took a look at my copy, andy passed me with 100% copy. They didn't even bother to grade the 10 question test. I recorded the pass with one of the VEs and left the test session. That made me feel great, but it also made me wonder, how many of the code test takers, really prepared for the test?

I know the guy on the keyboard prepared. He was sure that this was the day. But the stress got to him. I also know several hams that sat for the code test, totally on a whim, at a ham fest. They managed to get enough characters correct to get 7 of the 10 question correct. They never really wanted to work CW, but they managed to get their Extra. That was all that mattered.

So the written tests were easy enough 20 years ago, and they are easy enough now. You already have all of the test questions and all the answers. How much easier do you want the tests?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 10, 2018, 04:18:35 PM
How much easier do you want the tests?


For some people nothing can be sufficiently "easier."  ;D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K5LXP on December 10, 2018, 06:03:53 PM
We are not Nasa Astronauts come on .

Apparently not literary geniuses either...

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on December 10, 2018, 09:36:56 PM
Didn't you guys/gals know that we are in the "age of entitlements"?  … sigh …
Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0TLD on December 11, 2018, 12:52:17 AM
Easier? Would you like someone to just take the tests for you?

I studied a long time, but I walked into the exam room without a license of any kind, took all three exams and walked out 45 minutes later an Extra.

If *I* can do that, I imagine it's not too difficult for most people.

Easier. Incredible.

Mike
N0TLD


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 11, 2018, 12:57:22 AM
It does appear that the major requirement to obtain an Extra Class licence is a reasonable memory and not any real understanding of radio technology.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KD3WB on December 11, 2018, 02:05:48 AM
Just keep taking the practice exams.

https://www.eham.net/exams/

Ben


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 11, 2018, 02:09:29 AM
Can it get any easier?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: WI8P on December 11, 2018, 02:59:53 AM
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Trolls/n-hzSXj5/i-NtBSP46/0/203c29f8/L/i-NtBSP46-L.jpg)


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NN3W on December 11, 2018, 03:16:46 AM
If you heard it on 80 meters, it must be true......


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N4MU on December 11, 2018, 04:53:10 AM
Apologies to all: Obviously this comment was supposed to be on the discussions column of QRZ.  :D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NK7Z on December 11, 2018, 08:24:07 AM
Anyone here remember when the question pool was not available?  Back in "The Day", there was no question pool available, AND you had to pass a 20 WPM CW test... 


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 11, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
Anyone here remember when the question pool was not available?  Back in "The Day", there was no question pool available, AND you had to pass a 20 WPM CW test... 

I only took the General exam back in the day at the local FCC office. Going to the office was, in itself, not the most pleasant experience. Something like reporting to Marine Corps boot camp, but that's another tale.

In addition to not having the question pool officially available (I do recall that there were examples of typical questions around), one also had to actually draw a schematic of a vacuum tube circuit including all the components and their connections.

I liked the drawing part.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NK7Z on December 11, 2018, 09:54:21 AM
Anyone here remember when the question pool was not available?  Back in "The Day", there was no question pool available, AND you had to pass a 20 WPM CW test... 

I only took the General exam back in the day at the local FCC office. Going to the office was, in itself, not the most pleasant experience. Something like reporting to Marine Corps boot camp, but that's another tale.
So that experience was not just something in just our area...  Remember the code test, they strung out those wired headphones from desk to desk, and they actually hurt to wear.  Little hard cold bakelite hockey pucks for earpieces......


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 11, 2018, 11:22:55 AM
All this I remember when. Time to move on. Wow i just thought the test should be a tad bit easier. Just a comment i feel to be true. And that earlier reply do not feed the trolls that is a troll statement. I did read rhe arrl is looking to make the Extra test easier.  And i did hear it on a net on 80 meters. Everyone Have a Blessed Day and be safe.73s



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 11, 2018, 11:32:33 AM
All this I remember when. Time to move on. Wow i just thought the test should be a tad bit easier. Just a comment i feel to be true. And that earlier reply do not feed the trolls that is a troll statement. I did read rhe arrl is looking to make the Extra test easier.  And i did hear it on a net on 80 meters. Everyone Have a Blessed Day and be safe.73s



An obeservation on the current test. I am not sure they could make it any easier.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: VE3PP on December 11, 2018, 12:27:53 PM
Didn't you guys/gals know that we are in the "age of entitlements"?  … sigh …
Charlie, K3UIM


So true. Hey those kids from 10 years ago got a "Participation Ribbon" for just showing up.

Now they feel they are entitled to everything that old guys like us went out and worked our ass off for and earned.

Then again, we didn't eat Tide Pods or snort condoms.  ;D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on December 11, 2018, 12:38:08 PM
KE6EE: I once knew someone who was "born with a silver spoon in his mouth" and wanted for nothing all of his life. If he needed something, he bought it.
Then he found himself in a financially tight situation. He was devastated! Suicide was mentioned.
His friends were quick to remind him that he still had a life to live and should figure out a way to get back into the game.
Never having had hardships, he was totally lost and couldn't see how or what to do to escape the unsolvable problem he faced. Again, suicide was mentioned. what happened next brings me to the present.

Today's "Access Card" generation, seems to feel that the world owes them a decent (read: Free) living. There's no need to struggle to earn a thing. If it's wanted, needed, or even just nice to have, they are "entitled" to it. If they are denied it, then someone is a hater, a bigot, a racist, etc. Study for the code test?? Huh! They are entitled! They have their rights!

But then, I'm only someone that had to work for every cent I ever made and perhaps I'm a bit overwhelmed by the sight of third generation welfare people that are lost without their free cell phones, earned(?) income pay checks, etc. … sigh …

I've said it, you can relax. Hi.

Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2WIG on December 11, 2018, 12:58:24 PM



Charlie, you are a mean one.

I want my safe zone NOW!!

KLC


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KD7HNN on December 11, 2018, 02:43:07 PM
They're already practically giving away licenses. Just do what everyone else does and memorize the question pool, take the exam without learning a damn thing and be done with it.

Personally I think they should bring back the code requirements to weed out these types looking for a free ride.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2WIG on December 11, 2018, 03:36:29 PM


" They " should have kept at least a 5 wpm and a 2 year experience for the ExTra. 

I stopped the    beep beep beep beep   beep beep   while driving down the road. Two many fingers. Forget about sending the call sign that's on the plate.



klc


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 11, 2018, 04:19:21 PM
It is this exact close minded thinking that if i suffered and struggled everyone should. If i have cancer everybody should have it. I just think it should be a tad bit easier that is all just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy hobby. Nuff said.  73s

Jesus help me to understand the close mindness in thy World.

P.S. I have been studying the?  pool...


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on December 11, 2018, 04:21:51 PM
WIG and HNN: We're surely on the same page!! Hi.
Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on December 11, 2018, 05:05:10 PM
I just think it should be a tad bit easier that is all just my onion.


And most of us don't agree, nothing closed minded about that. Keep "studying".


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NK7Z on December 11, 2018, 05:28:59 PM
All this I remember when. Time to move on. Wow i just thought the test should be a tad bit easier.
While you have a right to believe anything you want, everyone else here does as well, and perhaps they don't want to "move on"...


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 11, 2018, 05:30:00 PM
It is this exact close minded thinking that if i suffered and struggled everyone should.

You do have a point, that possibly you, and no doubt others, have difficulty learning. Problems reading (dyslexia) or remembering are indeed great barriers to some kinds of accomplishment.

Certainly a specific kind of learning disability deserves sympathy and reasonable accomodation.

I know of a nationally-famous lawyer who is dyslexic who overcame this
learning disability. He may have had difficulty reading but there was nothing faulty with his ability to think and to argue in front of the Supreme Court.

It makes sense to me that the amateur exam process should allow for people with learning difficulties, who are nevertheless able to understand and discuss the relevant ideas, to take exams.

The OP might well make a proposal to the ARRL to allow those who want to take higher level exams verbally rather than on paper be allowed to do so.

I think that would be a very reasonable request and I would enthusiastically support it.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 12, 2018, 04:13:47 AM
It is this exact close minded thinking that if i suffered and struggled everyone should.

You do have a point, that possibly you, and no doubt others, have difficulty learning. Problems reading (dyslexia) or remembering are indeed great barriers to some kinds of accomplishment.

Certainly a specific kind of learning disability deserves sympathy and reasonable accomodation.

I know of a nationally-famous lawyer who is dyslexic who overcame this
learning disability. He may have had difficulty reading but there was nothing faulty with his ability to think and to argue in front of the Supreme Court.

It makes sense to me that the amateur exam process should allow for people with learning difficulties, who are nevertheless able to understand and discuss the relevant ideas, to take exams.

The OP might well make a proposal to the ARRL to allow those who want to take higher level exams verbally rather than on paper be allowed to do so.

I think that would be a very reasonable request and I would enthusiastically support it.



Something like that would open up the hobby to many with spectrum disorders. Which spectrum you might ask? The broad sweeping autism spectrum.

Making the theory any easier would not be good. It is supposed to be a challenge for a reason. This is why there are still a tech and general class. Making accomodations for those with disabilities makes good sense.

Whining about close minded people who dont want the test dumbed down anymore wont help your cause KC8KTN.
It just riles up the natives and things will not get better. You can learn to pass the test if you put your mind to it. If you can't memorize the answers from the pool then learn the theory. I did not have an option of memorizing answers when I got my license. There were several sample question pools with questions that were similar to those on the test but not the actual questions and answers. It was easier to learn the theory. It took me 5 years of studying to pass my 5wpm code test and I never could get past the 13wpm. If you cant pass the requirments for the next level make the best of the level you are at and enjoy the hobby.

have a Merry Christmas Chuck

I think you have a very good point Mike and accommodations would be a good way to open it up a little.
A verbal read test makes it much easier for those with aspergers or dyslexia to take the exam. Oops I used aspergers which is now part of the above mentioned spectrum and no longer mentioned on its own even though most with that disability are of above normal intelect. It is the social interactions and staying on task that the issue reveal themselves.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K7MEM on December 12, 2018, 04:30:35 AM
I know of a nationally-famous lawyer who is dyslexic who overcame this learning disability.

Now you know a not-so-famous ham operator that is a dyslexic. Me. Dyslexia is something you are born with, and there is no cure. You just learn to live with it. If you don't, you will never get very far.

A Dyslexic "does not" see things backwards, as is often assumed. I see everything exactly the same as the next guy. If you think about it, everyone sees things backwards. But your mind adjusts for the optics of your eyes. Dyslexics simply perceive things differently. And that's where problems sometimes arise.

For me, Dyslexia has very little to do with reading. Since I was 10 years old, I have read every electronic related book or magazine that I could get my hands on. I was an Engineer most of my life, and had to read reams of specifications. Not a problem. I easily absorb all that information and put it to use. I read and learn just fine.

[rant]Although, on this site, and others, the severe lack of sentence structure often causes a problem reading.{/rant]

So, for myself, I don't consider Dyslexia a learning disability. But it is often perceived that way by the general population. If you learn how to deal with Dyslexia, it is not a disability. And, due to perceiving things differently, it often an asset.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NK7Z on December 12, 2018, 05:00:36 AM
[rant]Although, on this site, and others, the severe lack of sentence structure often causes a problem reading.{/rant]
You are being kind at best!  Sometimes, it is next to impossible to derive the actual meaning someone is attempting to convey.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: WXSHAM on December 12, 2018, 06:12:10 AM
I am hoping the Arrl is going through with what i have read and heard on 80 meters last night on a net that i was apart of to make the Extra test easier. We are not Nasa Astronauts come on . Most hams buy there radios anymore not build them. Just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the holidays coming up. 73s Nuff said....

I found a few things made this not that hard:
- Download one of the many test preparation apps on your phone and anytime you have some spare time answer some questions.  Keep going till you are well above the target percentage needed.  That repetition was a combination of memorization but also learning.  (Whatever app you use it should immediately show you when you selected the wrong answer and show you the right one.  It helps you keep your focus on the correct answers to learn.)

This Ham's youtube video series are excellent.  I used his video's for I think general and extra, his explanations of math made things so much easier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyosVb_6Yzs

-Also there was some online practice exams I found that gave me a feel for when I knew enough to pass.


I think many here like the sense of accomplishment by learning and passing the tests.  I think if you had lots of time could prep for almost all of the tests in 2-3 weeks time. Since I was waiting for an exam date for about a month or so for my extra so had plenty of time to use the app and watch the video's.  I really enjoyed learning the details about the radio electronics that are involved.  If you view it from the perspective of learning something really interesting it also makes the test prep easier. (I suspect everyone might not be as excited I guess about the electronics side... but I found it very interesting and exciting to learn about.)


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: ND6M on December 12, 2018, 07:04:39 AM
... edit...A Dyslexic "does not" see things backwards, as is often assumed. I see everything exactly the same as the next guy. If you think about it, everyone sees things backwards. But your mind adjusts for the optics of your eyes....

Just to be "picky", people don't see things backwards. they see things upside down. The Image is inverted as it passes thru the lens.

If you have ever had torn retina surgery it becomes obvious as the gas bubble dissolves and the eye refills with fluid.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N4MU on December 12, 2018, 07:09:53 AM
Okay...my two cents (or should that be $2 now-a-days?). Forget the code/no code thing. I have, with some difficulty, dumped that whole controversy. How about this: For extra, the applicant must pass a written test -AND- have been licensed as a general for at least three years -AND- have verifiable proof of on air operation for at least two years. If he/she hasn't been operating for some time why does he/she need an extra to begin with? Two years of honest on the air work will make the applicant more prepared, hopefully less whining and more deserving.
(I know...it would never happen. The ARRL can't wait 3 years...LOL)


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 12, 2018, 07:43:24 AM
Now you know a not-so-famous ham operator that is a dyslexic.

I'd say you have achieved some fame in our community due to your always well-written and informative posts here.

Not to mention your website with its antenna and inductor information and calculating tools where I have spent many an enjoyable hour designing antennas.

And your explanation of the nature of dyslexia is very interesting and evocative.

I've made a living for many years as a writer (don't ask, but the canned beans you find in he grocery don't write their own labels) and was an English major in college. I can read and write pretty well in more than one language. I often mistake the meaning(s) of what I read, or find multiple meanings in writing that is supposed to be simple and clear.

Thus the experience of dyslexia must be both a challenge and a source of creative insight.

I used dyslexia only as an example of what might be a learning challenge. Those of us who have spent a significant portion of our lives getting various licenses or certifications or obtaining postgraduate degrees have learned how to learn and how to take tests efficiently.

People who are not good at taking tests may not have any sort of disability but may simply not be highly skilled at learning. As with learning anything else, one can learn how to learn more effectively. It just takes some practice. It does offer lots of enjoyment for most people.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W3TTT on December 12, 2018, 08:22:22 AM
As many have said, I agree that the license test should be harder for the extra, perhaps eaiser for the general. 
But many don't know that during the 1920s to the 90s, the code was for the army and Navy.  The forces needed radio staff in case of war.  Hams we're a good source.
Today, just the opposite.  Hams are not a good source of recruit s.  Hihi.
I would love to see license attachment s like showing a deeper understanding of the radio theory, code profiency and so on.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 12, 2018, 08:32:31 AM
W3TTT

Quote
I would love to see license attachment s like showing a deeper understanding of the radio theory, code profiency and so on

Code proficiency doesn't worry me so much, even though when I am on, it's mainly on code. But the understanding of the radio theory is the one reason that helps keep the bands and meet the definition of the radio amateur in the ITU Radio Regulations. I was representing the IARU at an ITU meeting when a delegate from an African country said to me "why do we waste time on amateur radio matters? It's only a hobby for rich white people". That sort of attitude can lead to loss of spectrum access.....


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W6BP on December 12, 2018, 08:47:16 AM

Certainly a specific kind of learning disability deserves sympathy and reasonable accomodation.

I know of a nationally-famous lawyer who is dyslexic who overcame this
learning disability. He may have had difficulty reading but there was nothing faulty with his ability to think and to argue in front of the Supreme Court.

It makes sense to me that the amateur exam process should allow for people with learning difficulties, who are nevertheless able to understand and discuss the relevant ideas, to take exams.

The OP might well make a proposal to the ARRL to allow those who want to take higher level exams verbally rather than on paper be allowed to do so.

I think that would be a very reasonable request and I would enthusiastically support it.


No need - VE teams already do this.  To quote the ARRL VE Manual, "No person who requires a special examination procedural accommodation or who requires assistance may be refused service by a VE Team (FCC Rule 97.509)."

I've helped administer exams for people with reading difficulties.  We read the questions and possible answers to the candidate, who then indicated verbally which answer they wanted. I'm sure many other VEs have had similar experiences.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W3TTT on December 12, 2018, 09:00:51 AM
It's only a hobby for rich white people". That sort of attitude can lead to loss of spectrum access.....
agreed.  Also, not true.  A pixie II can be had on eBay for $2.50. And up.  This hobby can be done for pocket change.  Not to mention taking parts from old radios, t v s etc.  And all humans can take part in the hobby.  Regardless of income.  Or social status. 


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2FCV on December 12, 2018, 10:19:45 AM
I passed it when I was 15.. if I can.. anyone can pass it.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N8YX on December 12, 2018, 10:44:56 AM
Not everyone gets a trophy, nor do they come in first place every time.

Cannot remember the lady's call sign, but an early 80s era QST featured an advertisement for Handi-Hams and showcased Gail...NCS of several HF CW traffic nets. She managed to obtain a license (and I'm thinking it was an Extra; not just a Conditional) by way of sending and receiving the entire test structure on a bug and a vibrating handpiece - due to the fact she was blind and deaf. Mind you, this was when you actually had to know electronics theory to successfully pass the test.

In light of that success, take your whiningtrolling elsewhere and go study harder. Life ain't all about you.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K1FBI on December 12, 2018, 12:54:28 PM
Time spent posting here could be time spent studying for the Extra, if that's what you want. When you want something bad enough you will put in the effort.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on December 12, 2018, 01:52:01 PM
Time spent posting here could be time spent studying for the Extra, if that's what you want. When you want something bad enough you will put in the effort.

Well said.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 12, 2018, 04:00:12 PM


Quote from: G3RZP on Today at 08:32:31 AM

Quote
It's only a hobby for rich white people". That sort of attitude can lead to loss of spectrum access.....

agreed.  Also, not true.  A pixie II can be had on eBay for $2.50. And up.  This hobby can be done for pocket change.  Not to mention taking parts from old radios, t v s etc.  And all humans can take part in the hobby.  Regardless of income.  Or social status.
 


Yes!  Over 50 years ago, I worked with a guy who came from Barbados. He was from a very poor family and left school at 14 to look after families' goats. But they had public libraries, and he had learnt about radio there.  He came to the UK and got a job at Marconi: they offered him, as a test technician, one day off a week to go to college (standard procedure for them) and if he passed his exams at the year end, to pay his exam fees and for his text books. So he went on to get fully qualified as an engineer, and told me that he would stay in the UK for three years to pay back for his tuition. After that he went back to Barbados to each electrical engineering. I don't know what his Barbados callsign  became....

Now that is the sort of approach that needs commending -  and BTW he was not only black but told the largest number of (now not-totally PC) racist jokes I have ever heard!
 
 
 


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 12, 2018, 04:17:24 PM
I will just study . There is a online program ham test online that is a good program. Every time i have started somthing comes up. I have been working 6 days a week.  My free time i have been going to the Nursing home to see my Mom. I have power of Attorney and have been paying her bills ect. I run a cnc gear shaving machine with + or - .0003 I am sure I can pass the test if I apply my self. Lets everybody have a Blessed day and be safe. 73s
P.S. I am 58 yrs I watched a lot of westerns growing up I can almost read smoke symbols so I know I can pass this Extra


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 12, 2018, 05:44:12 PM
There is a online program ham test online that is a good program. Every time i have started somthing comes up.

We're all in the same boat regarding things "coming up."

It can be all about setting priorities.

It can also be about getting help with studying or studying with other people. Many clubs have license-enhancement classes. They often are designed not only to help you develop test-taking skills but also to keep you looking at new and interesting subjects which have to do with exam topics.

I don't recommend trying to do such things on one's own or only with a computer or a book. Some of us can learn things alone with a study guide. Most of us benefit greatly from studying with others.

Make it easy on yourself. Join a group working on getting through the exam.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on December 12, 2018, 07:04:01 PM
I will just study . There is a online program ham test online that is a good program. Every time i have started somthing comes up.

Good for you. Life throws all of us curve balls, but as a previous poster said, you can do it if you want it bad enough. By the way eHAM has practice tests too. Look under Resources.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: SOFAR on December 13, 2018, 12:39:06 AM
I don't recommend trying to do such things on one's own or only with a computer or a book. Some of us can learn things alone with a study guide. Most of us benefit greatly from studying with others.

Make it easy on yourself. Join a group working on getting through the exam.

You are correct about setting priorities.
The very reason this is something to tackle independently.

Working with others results in time delays, dealing with excuses, and others lack of ambition.

https://hamexam.org (https://hamexam.org)


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 13, 2018, 03:46:13 AM
I will just study . There is a online program ham test online that is a good program. Every time i have started somthing comes up. I have been working 6 days a week.  My free time i have been going to the Nursing home to see my Mom. I have power of Attorney and have been paying her bills ect. I run a cnc gear shaving machine with + or - .0003 I am sure I can pass the test if I apply my self. Lets everybody have a Blessed day and be safe. 73s
P.S. I am 58 yrs I watched a lot of westerns growing up I can almost read smoke symbols so I know I can pass this Extra

If this is the case then why all the whining about making it easier?
Have a blessed christmas Chuck.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 13, 2018, 07:08:14 AM
Working with others results in time delays, dealing with excuses, and others lack of ambition.

Sounds like a deeply committed antisocial attitude. Sad.

My lifetime of working with others, in all aspects of life, has always been positive.

One of the great virtues of democracy is that two (or more) heads are better than one. Marriage. Church. Organizations of all kinds. The United States.

Human beings are essentially social creatures. A major proportion of our learning experiences come from our ability to observe and imitate what we experience of others. That's how infants get started and the process continues throughout life.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: SOFAR on December 13, 2018, 07:21:56 AM
Working with others results in time delays, dealing with excuses, and others lack of ambition.

Sounds like a deeply committed antisocial attitude. Sad.

My lifetime of working with others, in all aspects of life, has always been positive.

One of the great virtues of democracy is that two (or more) heads are better than one. Marriage. Church. Organizations of all kinds. The United States.

Human beings are essentially social creatures. A major proportion of our learning experiences come from our ability to observe and imitate what we experience of others. That's how infants get started and the process continues throughout life.

Sounds like a deeply delusional, idealistic attitude. Sad.


There's a time to be social.

And there's a time to focus, and accomplish.

Can you honestly say that your approach to taking a test would result in anything more than needless delays and obstacles?



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N9AOP on December 13, 2018, 07:49:25 AM
Grammar school students pass the Extra.  How much easier do you want to make it?  How about this, no written test, only a 20WPM CW test.
Art


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W4KVW on December 13, 2018, 09:58:06 AM
Since when is the A@@L in charge of testing?... Oh yeah, you heard it on 80 meters.

 :D ;D ;) The ARRL is in charge just ask them.If it were up to them there would be No Test so they could increase membership numbers since they are very LOW for the number of Licensed Hams in North America.They are down right desperate for dues paying members.

Clayton
W4KVW


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 13, 2018, 10:00:46 AM

Can you honestly say that your approach to taking a test would result in anything more than needless delays and obstacles?



Absolutely. The OP has evidently spent years trying to get up to speed on the Extra exam.

A local ham club puts on an Extra class once a year which meets once a week for 10 weeks. A significant percentage of attendees pass the exam which is given on the last night.

I enjoyed the class even putting up with a traffic-filled commute on the way over. Met a lot of nice people and learned a lot from the talks given each night by enthusiasts. Part of the course focused on how to maximize your test-taking skills (examples: don't bother to study "wrong" answers--study only the "right" ones).

In class we discussed the fact that many of the more complex questions used the same or similar values so that no calculating was needed to answer the question properly. Ballparking the answer value would get you close enough to ID the right answer.

I maintain that humans are basically social animals and as such do much better at virtually every task, including being happy, when they are adequately engaged socially.

If you bother to read about the lives of scientific "geniuses" and inventors you will find that they mostly worked, far from alone, along with many associates.

Having worked as a therapist I do know the downside of antisocial attitudes and behavior.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K5NOK on December 13, 2018, 10:36:27 AM
I became an extra in 2015.
Read the ARRL extra license manual.
Took the practice tests from this site and/or other ham sites.
Oh, Yeah...I suck am not good at math.
I had one math question on my exam.
The other difficult thing for me was the whole voltage leading current thing.
But... "eli the ice man" actually helped me on the test.

IT CAN BE DONE.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 13, 2018, 11:23:59 AM
Thanks for all the good advice and get off my butt encouragement this is going to get done in the next few months. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby. 73s.

One of the best thing about extra in my onion is I will be able to talk below 3.800 in 80 meters..

https://youtu.be/JBHKVAs85Ko


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 13, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
A few years ago at Dayton, I met a 9 year old girl with an Extra Class. She had no clue about such matters as IMD, spurious emissions, phase noise, receiver parameters,SWR etc..... which brought home to me just how meaningless the Extra is when the question pool is published and one just needs a good memory to pass.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 13, 2018, 04:37:36 PM
The significant factor in all this is the need to have a strong political organization like the ARRL to protect the hobby.

More hams, more ARRL members and more political clout.

Without a strong organization, with some financial resources, I think any government support for the hobby would disappear completely, with the ham bands auctioned off to the highest bidders.

Manufacturers of good ham gear ("appliances") would wither away.

Of course it's a trade-off, a compromise. We put up with incompetent, disrespectful and ignorant hams but we also maintain a lively hobby.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W4KVW on December 13, 2018, 10:29:19 PM
The significant factor in all this is the need to have a strong political organization like the ARRL to protect the hobby.

More hams, more ARRL members and more political clout.

Without a strong organization, with some financial resources, I think any government support for the hobby would disappear completely, with the ham bands auctioned off to the highest bidders.

Manufacturers of good ham gear ("appliances") would wither away.

Of course it's a trade-off, a compromise. We put up with incompetent, disrespectful and ignorant hams but we also maintain a lively hobby.

Well you can forget step #2 since the ARRL = Amateur Radio's Real Losers are never going to get their act together since it is obvious just reading the garbage they suggest every year that is is NOT an act. That rules out a Strong Organization completely. I have an strong opinion about anyone who wastes their money on a membership with such a dysfunctional organization. It is pretty obvious that the overwhelming Majority of Hams in the United States understand how dysfunctional they are because the membership numbers reflect the lack of trust in the group. I know there are all kinds of excuses but the Truth is they are a Pathetic excuse for an organization & they have zero power or respect from the Government or anyone else. Some say they are better than nothing but I know many who feel they are basically nothing so why waste time & money on them? They have had more than enough chances to get things together & they keep slipping further & further away from reality in the hobby. All they care about is putting in stupid changes that they hope will increase the numbers of dues paying members & not about the hobby itself. Amateur Radio is so far behind other technology that I don't see the number of Hams growing much if any. My guess is that less than half of the licensed Hams are even active.I know that about 1/3 of our locals are if that. It's obvious the ARRL is a Dead horse & should be put to rest FOREVER & move on. Making any class of license easier is as big of a joke as the ARRL & the FCC. Both organizations bring out laughter when mentioned in the same sentence as being a good thing for Amateur Radio. A toothless Lion like the FCC is pretty much harmless & has zero respect just like the ARRL. Making four or five cases a year is really awesome I guess in their eyes but again,it's a pathetic joke. They should leave the rules as they are & actually try enforcing the ones we already have & if someone wants more band usage then they should get off their lazy butts & study or shut up & stop looking like a total crybaby.  :D ;D :o ::)

Clayton
W4KVW 


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KS2G on December 14, 2018, 05:43:26 AM
I don't see the number of Hams growing much if any.

The number of U.S. license holders has been increasing steadily --albeit slowly-- for 20 years or more.
See: http://www.ah0a.org/FCC/Licenses.html


Quote
My guess is that less than half of the licensed Hams are even active.

This has always been the case -- even during what many consider the "golden age" of amateur radio in the 1950's and 1960's. ;)



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N2EY on December 14, 2018, 07:33:35 AM
A few years ago at Dayton, I met a 9 year old girl with an Extra Class. She had no clue about such matters as IMD, spurious emissions, phase noise, receiver parameters,SWR etc..... which brought home to me just how meaningless the Extra is when the question pool is published and one just needs a good memory to pass.

But it has been that way for much longer than I've been a ham (51 years).

One BIG difference between the old tests and the new ones is that, in the old days, you needed to know fewer subjects than today. But you needed to know more about those few.

I have old ARRL License Manuals from 1948, the early 1950s, 1962 and 1971. The study guides in them are interesting in what they cover - and in what they do NOT cover.

For example, the 1962 General guide has a few questions on Ohm's Law, a few on resonant circuits, a few on tube-type power supplies, a few on oscillators and transmitters, a few on various spurious-emission-reduction techniques......and a few on other subjects. And those questions are somewhat in-depth.

But in that 1962 General guide there is NOTHING AT ALL on repeaters, satellites, transistors of any kind, ICs, synthesizers, RF exposure safety, digital logic, receivers, antennas, transceivers, computers, SSTV, data modes, and many, many other subjects. The 1962 General didn't have to know ANYTHING about a whole bunch of subjects that are now in the General test. And with a 1962 General, you got US ALL amateur privileges!

The Extra and Advanced study guides in those LMs went into more depth, but not into many more subjects. No questions on receivers, for example, let alone IMD, phase noise, reciprocal mixing, etc. Antennas and RF exposure were not covered.

IOW, back then, you needed to know about a few things in some depth, whereas today, you need to know a little bit about a lot of different things.

The US license exams went all-multiple-choice in the 1960s. By 1968 - 50 years ago - they were ALL multiple choice. Sure, before the VE system, the tests were "secret", but they were all multiple choice for at least 15 years before that.

A passing grade has been 74% since forever, and there has never been a penalty for a wrong answer. FCC didn't and doesn't care whether a person got the right answer to a question by having a comprehensive, in-depth understanding, by rote memorization, or by guessing - all they care is that the person didn't cheat.

73 de Jim, N2EY



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N2EY on December 14, 2018, 07:50:43 AM
I am hoping the Arrl is going through with what i have read and heard on 80 meters last night on a net that i was apart of to make the Extra test easier.

There is no such effort by the ARRL. None. What you read and heard was dead wrong.

We are not Nasa Astronauts come on .

The Extra has been earned by elementary school students. This was going on since before 2000. In the mid-1990s, an 8 year old in the third grade earned the Extra by passing all 5 written tests and all 3 code tests (the requirements of the time.).

No one needs to be a NASA astronaut, electrical engineer, or anything even close, to earn the Extra. And that has always been the case.

Most hams buy there radios anymore not build them. Just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the holidays coming up. 73s Nuff said....

Yes, most hams buy their radios - that's been the case for more than half a century. But that's immaterial because the tests don't even begin to cover what is needed to design even a simple rig.

----

I think there are three BIG issues some hams have with upgrading:

1) Studying for a test is a delayed-gratification thing. One has to do stuff up-front, and only get the reward down the road. And it's easy to put it off, since there's no hard deadline.

I saw this over and over in the days of code testing. I'd talk to many hams on 2 meter FM who were "going to study code and theory and upgrade" - but many couldn't bring themselves to put the microphone down and spend their ham radio time learning code or theory. (These were folks operating their 2 meter rigs from home.) They had hours to spend on the repeaters but no time for studying code or theory.

2) Some folks have gotten out of the habit of learning new stuff. It's not that they can't learn, it's that they're out of practice, and so it takes them longer and more effort. So they make excuses ("we're not all Nasa astronauts!") rather than getting back in practice with learning new stuff.

3) Some folks never really learned the basics back when they earned whatever license they hold, or they've forgotten stuff. With a 74% passing grade, multiple-choice tests and no penalty for a wrong guess, a person can pass the tests and have huge holes in their knowledge. Trouble is, when they go to study for an upgrade, those holes become very evident, and they have to back up and learn or re-learn a lot more than the exact stuff on the test they are studying for.

IMHO



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 14, 2018, 11:58:46 AM
Well you can forget step #2 since the ARRL...That rules out a Strong Organization completely. I have an strong opinion about anyone who wastes their money on a membership with such a dysfunctional organization.

Spoken in the true reactionary form: nothing is any good; government is a waste; all organizations are stupid; democracy is worthless, and so on.

The reality is that politics, nominally democratic (small d) politics are very complicated and those that get involved usually need to be intelligent, ethical and very committed. It's a lot of work.

It's easy to complain, but much much more difficult to understand and try to preserve things you value or to work to improve them.

Without the ARRL, I'm quite sure that ham radio in the U.S. would wither away. There are always vultures circulating ready to exploit weakness and disability.

And at least vultures know how to survive.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on December 14, 2018, 01:31:26 PM

Without the ARRL, I'm quite sure that ham radio in the U.S. would wither away. There are always vultures circulating ready to exploit weakness and disability.


Indeed. Because our licenses are issued by the government, it's important to have an organization lobby for our interests. Those with competing interests certainly have lobbyists.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 14, 2018, 01:37:14 PM
KE6EE

Quote
Without the ARRL, I'm quite sure that ham radio in the U.S. would wither away

In view of (sadly, now reduced) ARRL support to IARU, not only the US. Who would represent US amateur interests at ITU and CITEL?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 14, 2018, 04:20:31 PM
Wow Really,
Keeping it Real
Nuff Said.
Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby. 73s.
https://youtu.be/9dffOikvU-I


https://youtu.be/krD4hdGvGHM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 14, 2018, 11:18:53 PM
https://youtu.be/zB9_oHiNF88


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W4KVW on December 15, 2018, 10:54:25 AM
KE6EE

Quote
Without the ARRL, I'm quite sure that ham radio in the U.S. would wither away

In view of (sadly, now reduced) ARRL support to IARU, not only the US. Who would represent US amateur interests at ITU and CITEL?

You don't understand.The ARRL only represents their own interest because it is about the dues they can make not about actually caring about any Amateurs anywhere.They do nothing except promote stupid rule changes that help their own causes.If it were up to them everyone would be an Extra Class as long as they get credit for it so they could make people feel as if they should become an ARRL member because they helped them get something they wanted for little or no effort on their part.Look at the stupid things they have promoted & it speaks for itself.Giving away band space to lazy people does NOT make the hobby better.FREE stuff is NOT the answer.I make sure that when we get new hams in our area to tell them what a waste of time & money the ARRL is & to AVOID anything that relates to them when possible.I don't know of any that have joined in the last 5 or 6 years so I feel as if I have saved them lots of money & kept it out of the pockets of those who promote the giving away of the bands to the lazy undeserving in the hobby who are not needed or wanted in that band space unless they can put some effort into EARNING IT.  :P :-* ::)

Clayton
W4KVW


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on December 15, 2018, 05:25:21 PM
Quote from: W4KVW link=topic=123146.msg1105202#msg1105202

You don't understand.

The ARRL only represents their own interest.

They do nothing except promote stupid rule changes that help their own causes.

Help me understand by being specific.

Referring to hams in general as lazy and ARRL efforts as stupid needs some careful definition.

Please give me some guidance as to who the lazy hams are and how you know that they are lazy. Evidence, please.

You could usefully provide a list of all the things YOU have done to help hamming. Besides "helping" hams in saving money by not supporting the ARRL.

Please be specific about what the ARRL has done that strikes you as stupid.

It sounds to me that you are angry. Tell me just what the ARRL has done to make you angry.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W4KVW on December 15, 2018, 07:53:23 PM
Anyone who is not aware of the STUPID proposals the ARRL has pushed for is not very much in contact with their agenda.I see them pushing with changes to the Technician Class as STUPID when all those in the class need is to UPGRADE so they may have more band privileges is like all other classes.The ARRL pushes for such Give It Away STUPIDITY because they think that by doing so they will gain new Paying members from those whom they have helped get something for FREE while putting more money in their pockets.Why else would they make such a STUPID proposal to the FCC? They also support the worthless bill that is suppose to permit those living in an HOA to have antennas which is a huge Bad Joke.It is a TERRIBLE bill & would have made things far worse for those whom it would affect if it had have passed.(I have 9 antennas & am about to have a 2nd tower with more so it does NOT affect me.) It was & is a BAD BILL & it being dumped is what was best for all involved as would dumping the entire ARRL.Those who follow the actions of the ARRL know how worthless they are now & have been for a long time.If they were actually doing much good for the hobby then their membership would not be at 30% or less among Amateur Radio Operators in the United States.The overwhelming majority of Amateurs here know how useless they are & we reject their foolishness & will continue doing so until they fold up their tents and go away forever.The sooner the better & they can only blame themselves yet they will blame those who did not support such STUPIDITY & wasting of time,energy,& money.I for one surely will not miss anything about them.

Clayton
W4KVW


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 16, 2018, 04:34:59 AM
Anyone who is not aware of the STUPID proposals the ARRL has pushed for is not very much in contact with their agenda.I see them pushing with changes to the Technician Class as STUPID when all those in the class need is to UPGRADE so they may have more band privileges is like all other classes.The ARRL pushes for such Give It Away STUPIDITY because they think that by doing so they will gain new Paying members from those whom they have helped get something for FREE while putting more money in their pockets.Why else would they make such a STUPID proposal to the FCC? They also support the worthless bill that is suppose to permit those living in an HOA to have antennas which is a huge Bad Joke.It is a TERRIBLE bill & would have made things far worse for those whom it would affect if it had have passed.(I have 9 antennas & am about to have a 2nd tower with more so it does NOT affect me.) It was & is a BAD BILL & it being dumped is what was best for all involved as would dumping the entire ARRL.Those who follow the actions of the ARRL know how worthless they are now & have been for a long time.If they were actually doing much good for the hobby then their membership would not be at 30% or less among Amateur Radio Operators in the United States.The overwhelming majority of Amateurs here know how useless they are & we reject their foolishness & will continue doing so until they fold up their tents and go away forever.The sooner the better & they can only blame themselves yet they will blame those who did not support such STUPIDITY & wasting of time,energy,& money.I for one surely will not miss anything about them.

Clayton
W4KVW


Can you show us where the ARRL touched you inappropriately?

That is the only reason I can see for the pure hatred you are spewing in their direction.

Wow just wow


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: G3RZP on December 16, 2018, 05:33:37 AM
Clayton,

So you believe that the ARRL only supports the IARU to get more ARRL members? Since the IARU represents at the ITU, CISPR, CEPT etc. some 3 million amateurs across the globe, it would seem to be an awful lot of investment for comparatively little return in terms of ARRL members. Similarly, then why does attending CITEL provide much return for ARRL?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N1RND on December 16, 2018, 05:36:42 AM
I'm a no with making it easier.
I was first licensed around 1977 as a Novice, CW only.  I upgraded to General about a year later. Over the next few decades I went up and took the Extra exam a few times but never passed.
About 5 or 6 years ago I studied like crazy and passed the Extra.  I was so proud, It was a real accomplishment for me.

Heck they did away with the code requirement, that has already made it easier to get any grade of license.  You have to remember something about society, when ever something is free or easy, it usually abused, and not appreciated.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NE1U on December 16, 2018, 11:05:14 AM
How can it be made easier other than you squeeze the PTT .. your then automatically licensed like Chicken Band.

Currently all questions are public. All multiple guess answers are public. Albeit the correct answers are mixed up with noise. With slight effort all of the "noise" can be deleted (Spoiler alert ... this would be the incorrect choices).

S-p-e-l-l-i-n-g this out, what is left are questions with only correct answers. Read thru this result 100 times on a weekend and take the test ASAP the following week. Guarantee you will pass. Boom. Done.

This is the stuff that have made up testing scandals at universities and probably high schools (selling old tests with answers). BUT in this case there is nothing illegal and I am not sure that it is even wrong except on some vague level. It is the system and not accidental. You would have to be pretty naive to believe that there was not some intent in rote memorization in the current system. After all, do you need to be a lawyer to pass the rules & regs? Are you really expected to understand the why for some of the rules & regs? I'll just extend that arguement to the other sections. Why not?

A pretend improvement on this streamlined method are the groups that offer a Saturday & Sunday cram course followed with the tech test Sunday evening. I assume someone feels good about this.

If you really want to learn, then consider ham radio a start. Then go on to higher learning of some kind. I wonder how many actually do this?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NQ3M on December 16, 2018, 11:55:04 AM
The OP is asking for the test to be made easier, that's a hoot to me! Standard SOP for this country anymore.

Never having to learn or earn something, is why this country is in the shape it's in. When you pay people to be sorry they will never disappoint you an that is a Bankable fact. Never having to work for something an buying in, is akin to paying people to be sorry in my book.  An, Publishing the test questions an correct answers are akin to paying people to be sorry.

If I got to vote, the tests to be much harder than present, an also require code to be reinstated. Plus a hands on requirement to prove basic skill sets. 

Don't worry though, none of the above will ever happen as it's all about money these days. One day it will all crash an basic skills be they radio, food, or want-ever, will cull an reinstate reality/sanity once again.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KG4CGC on December 16, 2018, 09:12:42 PM
The OP is asking for the test to be made easier, that's a hoot to me! Standard SOP for this country anymore.
<snipped>

He, the OP, said it was just his onion. Please, don't disparage his onion.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on December 17, 2018, 04:11:31 PM
Again I heard the topic come up on a net at 3.8455 about the test made a little easier. I gave no opinion on the topic I just listened. Very good points made for the Meritts of why and why not on this subject. Seems like I am not the only ham out here that thinks they should.  Anyway everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby. 73s.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on December 17, 2018, 04:20:08 PM
Maybe they would if they could. Only way to make it easier would be to have a 50 question test and only 50 questions in the pool.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on December 17, 2018, 05:06:59 PM
<rant>Looking back many years, how many Charlie Bakers got on the air without "registering" for their call sign and how did that turn out? Granted, many, over the years did, but most didn't bother. Why should they? Getting on the air was, after all, free. (And they're entitled!) HI. Also, how many ham rigs were put on the air by them? (Then and today, unlicensed?) How many amplified Charlie Baker rigs were & are in use today? … sigh … 

Along the same lines, look at Germany, when she opened their borders to the immigrants without vetting them. Would she do that again? (Well, maybe, but …)

Make it easy? I don't think so. There's actually no answer as long as anything can be gotten for nothing! <End rant>

Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N1CX on December 18, 2018, 08:07:01 AM
FOND memories of the Boston Customs House and the Big Ham Fisted Steely Eyed FCC examiners when I took my Novice in 1976 I think it was.

When I upgraded to Extra years later (20?) I walked into VE exam, sat down, declined the scratch paper for the code test. The examiner was incredulous. I passed 100%. He asked how I did it. I replied "It's simple. Morse code to me is a language just like you and I talking here" He shook his head in amazement and walked away.

Then I took the Extra written and got 1 wrong. Dumb mistake. I think that guy thought I was God for doing that. I laughed.

Don't dumb it down. Make it harder. It's TOO easy now. You should have to draw a Colpitts oscillator like I did in 1976.

You should have to determine circuit states with 6 chains of gates inline.

You SHOULD be able to fix your own radio! Your a ham operator. This to me is what ham radio is all about!



Anyone here remember when the question pool was not available?  Back in "The Day", there was no question pool available, AND you had to pass a 20 WPM CW test...  

I only took the General exam back in the day at the local FCC office. Going to the office was, in itself, not the most pleasant experience. Something like reporting to Marine Corps boot camp, but that's another tale.

In addition to not having the question pool officially available (I do recall that there were examples of typical questions around), one also had to actually draw a schematic of a vacuum tube circuit including all the components and their connections.

I liked the drawing part.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: DL8OV on December 18, 2018, 11:55:17 AM
N1CX, I'm with you all of the way. Tests are MEANT to be hard because their purpose is to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I passed my ticket in 1977 and I remember having to learn the difference between a Colpitts and a Hartley oscillator along with a book full of stuff including the regulations, which meant that when the pass slip arrived in the mail I was a happy fellow.

Fast forward twenty years or so and I'm taking the CW test (sending) when Concorde decides to fly over. I turned to the examiner and told him that I would wait for the noise to decrease before I continued and wiped my sweaty palm on my pants then carried on. Passed first time, even though I had taken thirty seconds longer than I should.

I'm going to finish this post with a quote, and the next time someone complains that tests are too hard or that they are entitled to something 'just because' I'd really like them to remember it:

"Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway."
John Wayne

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N1RND on December 19, 2018, 03:15:30 PM
I remember the US Customs House for taking the tests too.

And the John Wayne quote is good.

I like this one.
"Life is hard enough, but it's even harder if your stupid".


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W9IQ on December 19, 2018, 04:40:46 PM
I remember the US Customs House for taking the tests too.

And the John Wayne quote is good.

I like this one.
"Life is hard enough, but it's even harder if your stupid".

Or better yet...
"Life is hard enough, but it's even harder if you're stupid"

- Glenn W9IQ


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W9FIB on December 20, 2018, 09:20:33 AM
Also quoting John Wayne...A man's got to do what a man's got to do.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N2SR on December 21, 2018, 06:22:05 AM
Also quoting John Wayne...A man's got to do what a man's got to do.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/61/messages/756.html



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W9FIB on December 21, 2018, 07:29:24 AM
Also quoting John Wayne...A man's got to do what a man's got to do.

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/61/messages/756.html



Well I have 1 of these in my office.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Wayne-Quote-What-A-Mans-Got-To-Do-TIN-SIGN-vtg-war-movie-metal-poster-1495-/300788410536


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N1RND on December 21, 2018, 09:37:57 AM
I remember the US Customs House for taking the tests too.

And the John Wayne quote is good.

I like this one.
"Life is hard enough, but it's even harder if your stupid".

Or better yet...
"Life is hard enough, but it's even harder if you're stupid"

- Glenn W9IQ

How did I not check my grammar.  No not Grandma.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on January 02, 2019, 04:15:11 PM
John Wayne would transmit where he wanted to screw the tests and the government. He would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please. Keeping it real. Nuff said.. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby this year.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 02, 2019, 04:52:35 PM
John Wayne...would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please.

That is what's called a "Ferdian slip" or something like that.  ;D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: SWMAN on January 02, 2019, 08:35:03 PM
KTN,
 Dirty Harry would say the same thing for sure.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N8YX on January 03, 2019, 06:55:46 AM
John Wayne would transmit where he wanted to screw the tests and the government. He would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please.
Go ahead...we're waiting.  ;D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 03, 2019, 08:15:56 AM

 Dirty Harry would say the same thing for sure.

As would Al Capone.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on January 03, 2019, 08:33:03 AM
John Wayne would transmit where he wanted to screw the tests and the government. He would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please. Keeping it real. Nuff said.. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby this year.

Why are you trashing John Wayne? He had respect for laws and conventions, unlike the 'something for nothing' crowd.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on January 03, 2019, 09:19:22 AM

Why are you trashing John Wayne? He had respect for laws and conventions, unlike the 'something for nothing' crowd.
Amen! He wasn't part of the Hollywood trash of today that seems to be so ultra liberal. A real American in my eyes.
Charlie, K3UIM



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on January 03, 2019, 12:37:54 PM
Wow everyone calm down. Why does everyone bring there poltical onion into the fray.  And what makes it more sad is that everyone thinks there onion is the only onion. Wow. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the hobby. 73s


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: WA2ISE on January 03, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
John Wayne would transmit where he wanted to screw the tests and the government. He would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please.

And the FCC is closed because of the government shutdown.  But before you hurry to your rig and dial up 14.313 realize that they will eventually go back to work...   ;D


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 04, 2019, 04:44:23 AM
John Wayne would transmit where he wanted to screw the tests and the government. He would claim it is his God givinen right to transmit where I please.

And the FCC is closed because of the government shutdown.  But before you hurry to your rig and dial up 14.313 realize that they will eventually go back to work...   ;D

And someone will be recording everything to hand to them when the do get back to work.......

What is all this talk of onions????


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on January 04, 2019, 09:09:14 AM
And someone will be recording everything to hand to them when the do get back to work....... this talk of onions????
And "there" instead of "their"? Looks like another example of nobody knowing what the "multiplication tables" are. … sigh ...
Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KC8KTN on January 04, 2019, 04:28:14 PM
If the government has shutdown the f.c.c. the rules do not apply. Free time . Even John Wayne would approve of this. Who is watching the store. I seen John Wayne take the law into his own hands many of times. Watch the War Wagon movie. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the rest of the weekend and hobby. 73s

Another good movie Sons of Kattie Elder.. He did what he wanted to or as he seen fit.  73s


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 04, 2019, 04:40:11 PM
Any status from having an Extra Class license is long gone.  I had rather be advanced. It is the only class of license you can have that proves you actually knew at least 13 WPM code .

If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 04, 2019, 04:49:45 PM
If the government has shutdown the f.c.c. the rules do not apply. Free time...John Wayne take the law into his own hands many of times.

Why would an outlaw bother to get a license, ham radio or otherwise?

Oh I get it--we're talkin' movies.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 04, 2019, 05:11:31 PM
And someone will be recording everything to hand to them when the do get back to work....... this talk of onions????
And "there" instead of "their"? Looks like another example of nobody knowing what the "multiplication tables" are. … sigh ...
Charlie, K3UIM


They're trying to make a point but I can't figure out what their point might be due to all the talk of Onions there.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K3UIM on January 04, 2019, 06:52:03 PM
They're trying to make a point but I can't figure out what their point might be due to all the talk of Onions there.
Bwahah!! I'd say "ROFLOL", but I'm not sure it would be proper here. Hi.
Charlie, K3UIM


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: DL8OV on January 05, 2019, 02:33:21 AM
If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.

I am sorry but I must disagree with this statement. Learning CW is a manual skill that requires a certain amount of dexterity and coordination and not everyone is capable of doing it. There are probably thousands of technically skilled radio hams out there who just cannot send good code, just as I can't dance or play the violin, and these are not dumb people.

Peter DL8OV


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: K1FBI on January 05, 2019, 03:28:14 AM
.........
If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.
Is that a vanity call? It’s so fitting. That was certainly an arrogant Alpha Hotel comment.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: NQ3M on January 05, 2019, 03:36:00 AM
Interesting comments so far.
Current theory says, the intelligence level seems to be dropping in this Nation while the level of discourteous intent is rising. So far this thread is up to the minute proof, of that theory. My question is, applying E/E math to the aforementioned at what point does the SWR become detrimental to the transmitter if a fold back circuit is either damaged or, had never been installed during the learning processes?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 05, 2019, 06:45:30 AM
Any status from having an Extra Class license is long gone.  I had rather be advanced. It is the only class of license you can have that proves you actually knew at least 13 WPM code .

If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.

I take Legitimate offense to this comment. I never could receive better than 10 wpm so I guess I am one of those that is too dumb.
It took 5 years of working with CW to get to 5 wpm so I could pass My Novice, I took and passed my tech general exam 2 months later while still waiting for my ticket in the mail. Another 10 years of trying to get the 13 wpm to upgrade to general and I said to hell with it and used my now tech plus privileges to their limit. 3 years later in 2000 when the code was reduced to 5 wpm for all classes I was grandfathered into General. I did not have the ear for copying CW nor did I have a good fist for sending. But let us all bow down to the high and Mighty Advanced who thinks that code is the end all be all decider who is a real ham and who is not...


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W3WN on January 05, 2019, 08:00:11 AM
I am hoping the Arrl is going through with what i have read and heard on 80 meters last night on a net that i was apart of to make the Extra test easier. We are not Nasa Astronauts come on . Most hams buy there radios anymore not build them. Just my onion. Everyone please be safe and Enjoy the holidays coming up. 73s Nuff said....
How’s the billboard going?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 09:26:23 AM
I never could receive better than 10 wpm so I guess I am one of those that is too dumb.

The idea that people are either smart or dumb is dumb. These days, those who measure cognitive performance (intelligences) have established that we have many different kinds of intelligences: logical, organizational, mathematical, musical, color and so on.

Most people have the ability to learn Morse Code. Most kids, during my youth, who had an interest in radios, had no trouble getting their Novice and then General licenses. When Morse Code was more widely used by the military, thousands of ordinary enlistees took classes and learned how to
send and receive Morse at useful speeds. 15 to 20 wpm is perfectly useful.

People who can operate at 30 wpm and upwards may be relatively uncommon, I can't say for sure. Lots of operating at 30 wpm is computerized for contests and doesn't require high level operator skill.

One U.S. military Morse Code course begins with an exercise to determine whether a student can distinguish between two Morse characters--not to identify them but simply to be able to hear that they are not the same.

I think Morse Code skill is essentially tied to musical ability. Some people have perfect pitch but everyone who can tell that two different pitches are not the same can learn and improve their pitch awareness. Ditto for rhythm recognition and identification. One person will hear a short rhythm one time and be able to repeat it. Another person will need to hear that rhythm several times before getting it right.

I think Morse Code ability is related to rhythm recognition. It may be that rhythm training (and there are many programs for this for music students)
might be a good way for those who are stuck in progressing in Morse Code learning, may benefit from learning how to recognize musical rhythms better.

We all have differing abilities and intelligences, but we all also can improve
our abilities, some more than others. Few of us lack the basic ability to learn most ordinary skills at a basic, functional level.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 05, 2019, 09:29:24 AM
.........
If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.
Is that a vanity call? It’s so fitting. That was certainly an arrogant Alpha Hotel comment.


No, It is not a vanity call in reality. It was FCC issued.  I goy a vanity call and then wanted my old call back. So, it shows as a vanity. And, I lost all my QRZ look ups.

And not being able to copy or send code is just BS. Perhaps you have MS, and if so I apologize. The most comical thing you here is tone deaf. WTF does that have to do with copying dots and dashes.

If you are too lazy to spend the time it takes, and it can be long and excruciating, just admit it.

Don't come up with some bull about a medical condition or something.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 05, 2019, 09:36:29 AM
Quote
Some people have perfect pitch


Why don't you explain to me what that has to do with it.  What did pitch have to do with the telegraph operators of the 1800's.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 10:43:18 AM
Quote
Some people have perfect pitch


Why don't you explain to me what that has to do with it.  What did pitch have to do with the telegraph operators of the 1800's.

My point had to do with the fact that we have different kinds of mental abilities (intelligences).

I mentioned perfect pitch and then I mentioned rhythmic ability because most people can understand that these are very different skills but both have to do with music.

I then suggested that improving basic (musical) rhythmic skills might make learning Morse Code easier for people with a low-level of rhythmic
ability or undeveloped rhythmic ability.

I did not mention any connection between Morse Code and pitch-identifying skills or perfect pitch. That is the KM4AH contribution.

There is indeed, however, a connection between pitch identifying skills or pitch comparison skills and CW. That is, for those with some pitch comparison skill, zero-beating a signal by ear is relatively easy. CW ops without such skill are likely not to be on-frequency or will have to depend on some visual device for determining zero beat.

Zero beat, by the way, is no longer what it once was back in the day when BFO-equipped receivers had variable BFO knobs on the front panel. In those days zero beat really meant zero heterodyne beats so that you could ID being exactly on frequency when the sound disappeared with the BFO knob set at center.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 05, 2019, 11:01:01 AM
.........
If you are too dumb to learn code or too dumb to pass a test where they give you all the questions and correct answers then you are too dumb to be on ham radio.
Is that a vanity call? It’s so fitting. That was certainly an arrogant Alpha Hotel comment.


No, It is not a vanity call in reality. It was FCC issued.  I goy a vanity call and then wanted my old call back. So, it shows as a vanity. And, I lost all my QRZ look ups.

And not being able to copy or send code is just BS. Perhaps you have MS, and if so I apologize. The most comical thing you here is tone deaf. WTF does that have to do with copying dots and dashes.

If you are too lazy to spend the time it takes, and it can be long and excruciating, just admit it.

Don't come up with some bull about a medical condition or something.

No medical condition. 15 years trying to get to your holinesses 13 WPM and only achieving 10, So yes I guess I was too lazy only attempting for 15 years the first 5 only to get to the 5 for Novice. I do not have a good ear for it. I am sorry that I do not qualify as a ham in your eyes because my CW is not up to par. The more you post the more you insult. Did your Mommy not teach you if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything? The superiority complex of some is amazing. I am sorry I have only been a ham for 32 years and only passed the 5 wpm test. It was not due to lack of trying or studying. I passed the Tech General written without studying and would have been a general many years earlier if not for the 13 wpm requirement. Not everyone can be an awesome as you.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W0BKR on January 05, 2019, 11:58:58 AM
Comedy gold right here...LMFAO

Testing Center
Here, make your mark...

X

Here's your license....


LOL


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 01:01:59 PM
No medical condition. 15 years trying...and only achieving 10...I do not have a good ear for it.

Some people who have trouble with Morse Code may indeed have "medical conditions."

Hearing damage is widespread in our culture because of excessive amplification at musical performances and listening to music at home or performing music at too high volumes.

In addition, many workers of various kinds have spent much of their working lives without or with inadequate hearing protection. People can operate all kinds of noisy gear at home and damage hearing without realizing it.

Hearing damage symptoms can be inabilities to hear certain frequency ranges or even be painful distortions of ordinary moderately-loud sounds.




Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 05, 2019, 01:24:51 PM
No medical condition. 15 years trying...and only achieving 10...I do not have a good ear for it.

Some people who have trouble with Morse Code may indeed have "medical conditions."

Hearing damage is widespread in our culture because of excessive amplification at musical performances and listening to music at home or performing music at too high volumes.

In addition, many workers of various kinds have spent much of their working lives without or with inadequate hearing protection. People can operate all kinds of noisy gear at home and damage hearing without realizing it.

Hearing damage symptoms can be inabilities to hear certain frequency ranges or even be painful distortions of ordinary moderately-loud sounds.




As I was referring to myself, I repeat no medical conditions. Hearing tested on a regular basis as per OSHA standards due to working in Industry. Started trying to learn morse code at the age of 15. Passed the 5 wpm for my Novice at 20. Gave up after only achieving 10 wpm at the age of 30. I do not know why but I have not been able to get faster than 10 wpm receive. I was not lazy but accepted my limitations. I am glad that you were able to get your advanced but the attitude that anyone that has issues with CW is lazy or not a real ham Sucks. One day I may go and take the Extra exam. To date I have not bothered as the General Privileges are fine with me for the time I spend on the air. 


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 05, 2019, 01:40:38 PM
No medical condition. 15 years trying...and only achieving 10...I do not have a good ear for it.

Some people who have trouble with Morse Code may indeed have "medical conditions."

Hearing damage is widespread in our culture because of excessive amplification at musical performances and listening to music at home or performing music at too high volumes.

In addition, many workers of various kinds have spent much of their working lives without or with inadequate hearing protection. People can operate all kinds of noisy gear at home and damage hearing without realizing it.

Hearing damage symptoms can be inabilities to hear certain frequency ranges or even be painful distortions of ordinary moderately-loud sounds.




As I was referring to myself, I repeat no medical conditions. Hearing tested on a regular basis as per OSHA standards due to working in Industry. Started trying to learn morse code at the age of 15. Passed the 5 wpm for my Novice at 20. Gave up after only achieving 10 wpm at the age of 30. I do not know why but I have not been able to get faster than 10 wpm receive. I was not lazy but accepted my limitations. I am glad that you were able to get your advanced but the attitude that anyone that has issues with CW is lazy or not a real ham Sucks. One day I may go and take the Extra exam. To date I have not bothered as the General Privileges are fine with me for the time I spend on the air. 


You are real ham, just half a ham.

It probably took me ten years from the time I started to learn 5 WPM. Started with a 33 1/3 RPM recording about 1970.  Learned a little and gave up. Then in the early eighties I started listening to code tapes off and on for hours every day for weeks and weeks.

I think it would be somewhat like learning rudimentary Mandarin from scratch.

Fact is, for every so and so who actually had some condition there are a hundred that just did not realize how much effort it takes.

Really beside the point now.  All you have to do is memorize the answers to some questions and know absolutely nothing about it.

And, some think that is too much effort.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 01:51:43 PM
I am glad that you were able to get your advanced but the attitude that anyone that has issues with CW is lazy or not a real ham Sucks. One day I may go and take the Extra exam.

I have a (second-rate, no code) Extra license. But I did have a real General  license, with code test, taken at the local FCC office at age 14. Many decades ago. I was inactive for 50 years, but realized I still knew Morse Code so I got (second-rate) re-examined some 8 years ago. Maybe being
good at Morse Code is all about a certain kind of memory.

I worked for many years in the advertising and graphic design businesses. My business partner, who was a very creative graphic designer, had a poor memory for colors. Although I was much less talented in design, I had, and still have, a very good memory for color. I can look at a color on a wall and go to the paint store and choose a chip that matches (or a close match if there is not an exact one).

We all have different memory capabilities. I can remember phone numbers from decades ago, but not things like pi to thirty numbers beyond the decimal.

Seems to me that the additional bandwidth for Extras is mostly useful at the lower end of SSB segments where there is an additional 200 kHz to 275 kHz (15M) on HF bands.

It would make sense to me to have a Morse Code requirement for a certain class of license with extended privileges at the lower end of the HF CW segments. Of course, that's mere fantasy. No one likes giving up something they've earned, even if the earning amounted to getting 3/4 of the questions right on a multiple choice exam for which all the possible questions and answers are in the public domain.

It still can make sense to study for the Extra exam and take it. If you haven't dealt with calculations of complex impedance, you will have a chance to gain some familiarity. As at least one Extra told me before I began studying, learning the material will NOT make you an EE or an RF engineer, but at least you will be given an introduction to some interesting topics.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 01:56:38 PM
I think it would be somewhat like learning rudimentary Mandarin from scratch.

Actually Mandarin is a very easy language to learn. There are very few sounds, no verb conjugations, no gender matching. It's tonal so some aspects are new to English speakers.

Learning to write the simplified ideograms is a challenge for some, but the Latinized writing systems (using our, or the Roman, alphabet) make writing easy enough.

A really difficult (and interesting) language is Finnish. Wiki it for more info, or better still, listen to it by watching a Netflix police procedural filmed in Finland.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 05, 2019, 02:40:42 PM
I think it would be somewhat like learning rudimentary Mandarin from scratch.

Actually Mandarin is a very easy language to learn. There are very few sounds, no verb conjugations, no gender matching. It's tonal so some aspects are new to English speakers.

Learning to write the simplified ideograms is a challenge for some, but the Latinized writing systems (using our, or the Roman, alphabet) make writing easy enough.

A really difficult (and interesting) language is Finnish. Wiki it for more info, or better still, listen to it by watching a Netflix police procedural filmed in Finland.


Well, if you think you can learn Mandarin in a certain amount of time and not CW I'll just have to throw a flag on that.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 05, 2019, 03:13:09 PM
No medical condition. 15 years trying...and only achieving 10...I do not have a good ear for it.

Some people who have trouble with Morse Code may indeed have "medical conditions."

Hearing damage is widespread in our culture because of excessive amplification at musical performances and listening to music at home or performing music at too high volumes.

In addition, many workers of various kinds have spent much of their working lives without or with inadequate hearing protection. People can operate all kinds of noisy gear at home and damage hearing without realizing it.

Hearing damage symptoms can be inabilities to hear certain frequency ranges or even be painful distortions of ordinary moderately-loud sounds.




As I was referring to myself, I repeat no medical conditions. Hearing tested on a regular basis as per OSHA standards due to working in Industry. Started trying to learn morse code at the age of 15. Passed the 5 wpm for my Novice at 20. Gave up after only achieving 10 wpm at the age of 30. I do not know why but I have not been able to get faster than 10 wpm receive. I was not lazy but accepted my limitations. I am glad that you were able to get your advanced but the attitude that anyone that has issues with CW is lazy or not a real ham Sucks. One day I may go and take the Extra exam. To date I have not bothered as the General Privileges are fine with me for the time I spend on the air. 


You are real ham, just half a ham.

It probably took me ten years from the time I started to learn 5 WPM. Started with a 33 1/3 RPM recording about 1970.  Learned a little and gave up. Then in the early eighties I started listening to code tapes off and on for hours every day for weeks and weeks.

I think it would be somewhat like learning rudimentary Mandarin from scratch.

Fact is, for every so and so who actually had some condition there are a hundred that just did not realize how much effort it takes.

Really beside the point now.  All you have to do is memorize the answers to some questions and know absolutely nothing about it.

And, some think that is too much effort.

So now its half a Ham. Wow thanks. I started learning CW with 45 rpm records followed by cassettes and then by working with it on the air and with other hams trying to assist me in getting to 13 wpm. I guess I did not try hard enough. You know what, it does not matter as I am just as much a Ham as you are. Maybe a different class of license but still a ham. I know no code hams that have never had to learn CW but now use it more often than phone. They did not need to learn it but tried it and liked it. I guess those 20 wpm no coders aren't real hams either as they did not need to pass the code test.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KE6EE on January 05, 2019, 04:02:21 PM
Well, if you think you can learn Mandarin in a certain amount of time and not CW I'll just have to throw a flag on that.

My guess is that people who find it easy, or at least not a big problem, to learn just about ANYTHING, can no doubt learn enough Mandarin in several months to be able to travel, order in a restaurant, go shopping and so on in Taiwan or Mainland China. Or, if they are somewhat odd, they can turn to learning Morse Code and be reasonably proficient in several months.

Morse Code is NOT a language; learning code is much much more simple and easy than learning a language, especially a tonal language. Morse Code is a CODE, a way of spelling what is essentially English, although much of what passes for words are jargon, not known to the general public.

I would, last, venture that many people, like myself, who could focus reasonably well in public school, who went on to college and to graduate school, learned how to learn pretty well. Most colleges and graduate schools, although not all of them, require a certain level of skill at learning many different kinds of things.

Yes, people do learn how to learn.

One of those skills is learning how to take tests. After six or eight or ten years of college and grad school, one becomes very proficient at taking tests.

Amateur Extra exam, for someone who has spent many years taking tests, no heavy breathing required.



Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W9FIB on January 05, 2019, 05:29:49 PM
The problem is simple. Some old farts just can't accept people following the rules put out by the FCC for testing requirements. And those also happen to not do much to help those trying to learn. Just berate them and call them names. So sad.

It is no wonder so many new people get their ticket and disappear. I am sure many of them wanted to enjoy the new hobby rather then get yelled at by people who don't like them for simply following the rules to join this hobby. And I have been told that by some I met early in their entry to HR and running into them some time after that.

If you don't like the testing the way it is, don't blame those who follow the rules. Petition the FCC to change the rules back. I am willing to bet that will never happen on either. Some just need to have a reason to bi$#h so they can feel good about themselves at the expense of others.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 05, 2019, 06:11:26 PM
The problem is simple. Some old farts just can't accept people following the rules put out by the FCC for testing requirements. And those also happen to not do much to help those trying to learn. Just berate them and call them names. So sad.

It is no wonder so many new people get their ticket and disappear. I am sure many of them wanted to enjoy the new hobby rather then get yelled at by people who don't like them for simply following the rules to join this hobby. And I have been told that by some I met early in their entry to HR and running into them some time after that.

If you don't like the testing the way it is, don't blame those who follow the rules. Petition the FCC to change the rules back. I am willing to bet that will never happen on either. Some just need to have a reason to bi$#h so they can feel good about themselves at the expense of others.


I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: W9FIB on January 06, 2019, 01:50:35 AM
I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

If it is annoying, then don't read it. You just can't admit you have a problem with people who have difficulty with CW, which is why it is annoying to you.

Never advocated for any changes. I did suggest that you petition for harder tests if you feel that is what is needed. But I bet your too lazy to do it. Or your just blowin smoke on the subject.

Where did worthless come from? Maybe that's how you feel, and feel the need to run down others to bring them to your level.

Like I said, you feel the need to bi@#h at the expense of others. Goes back to bringing others down to your level. So sad for the hobby...certainly not you.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 06, 2019, 04:57:53 AM
The problem is simple. Some old farts just can't accept people following the rules put out by the FCC for testing requirements. And those also happen to not do much to help those trying to learn. Just berate them and call them names. So sad.

It is no wonder so many new people get their ticket and disappear. I am sure many of them wanted to enjoy the new hobby rather then get yelled at by people who don't like them for simply following the rules to join this hobby. And I have been told that by some I met early in their entry to HR and running into them some time after that.

If you don't like the testing the way it is, don't blame those who follow the rules. Petition the FCC to change the rules back. I am willing to bet that will never happen on either. Some just need to have a reason to bi$#h so they can feel good about themselves at the expense of others.


I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

Claiming that not being able to achieve certain levels of CW is a lack of will is an insult to some of us. I can understand that your arrogance prevents you from seeing that. I have from the beginning of this post have advocated for not making the extra test easier.
This hobby does mean something to me. You do have an issue with the code requirement being lifted or you would not be saying things like it is only a lack of will. I did learn CW. I could not get 13 WPM. I have been called half a ham or not a real ham in this thread.
I am sorry I do not add up to a real ham in your opinion,


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 06, 2019, 06:19:03 AM
I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

If it is annoying, then don't read it. You just can't admit you have a problem with people who have difficulty with CW, which is why it is annoying to you.

Never advocated for any changes. I did suggest that you petition for harder tests if you feel that is what is needed. But I bet your too lazy to do it. Or your just blowin smoke on the subject.

Where did worthless come from? Maybe that's how you feel, and feel the need to run down others to bring them to your level.

Like I said, you feel the need to bi@#h at the expense of others. Goes back to bringing others down to your level. So sad for the hobby...certainly not you.


I have never met anybody who did not have difficulty with CW.  Some had the will to do what was necessary to learn it. Some didn't.

Same with everything else in the world.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 06, 2019, 06:20:57 AM
The problem is simple. Some old farts just can't accept people following the rules put out by the FCC for testing requirements. And those also happen to not do much to help those trying to learn. Just berate them and call them names. So sad.

It is no wonder so many new people get their ticket and disappear. I am sure many of them wanted to enjoy the new hobby rather then get yelled at by people who don't like them for simply following the rules to join this hobby. And I have been told that by some I met early in their entry to HR and running into them some time after that.

If you don't like the testing the way it is, don't blame those who follow the rules. Petition the FCC to change the rules back. I am willing to bet that will never happen on either. Some just need to have a reason to bi$#h so they can feel good about themselves at the expense of others.


I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

Claiming that not being able to achieve certain levels of CW is a lack of will is an insult to some of us. I can understand that your arrogance prevents you from seeing that. I have from the beginning of this post have advocated for not making the extra test easier.
This hobby does mean something to me. You do have an issue with the code requirement being lifted or you would not be saying things like it is only a lack of will. I did learn CW. I could not get 13 WPM. I have been called half a ham or not a real ham in this thread.
I am sorry I do not add up to a real ham in your opinion,


You know perfectly well that you could have learned it if you tried hard enough.

That's the reason you get so aggravated by somebody pointing it out.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: N0YXB on January 06, 2019, 07:55:34 AM
I have been called half a ham or not a real ham in this thread.
I am sorry I do not add up to a real ham in your opinion,

You're a real ham. Some curmudgeons will never be happy because the hobby is changing with the times, and never again will it be like it was in the 60's and 70's. They don't get to define ham radio for the rest of us, ignore their sad and misguided rants. They're dinosaurs.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 06, 2019, 08:09:42 AM
I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

If it is annoying, then don't read it. You just can't admit you have a problem with people who have difficulty with CW, which is why it is annoying to you.

Never advocated for any changes. I did suggest that you petition for harder tests if you feel that is what is needed. But I bet your too lazy to do it. Or your just blowin smoke on the subject.

Where did worthless come from? Maybe that's how you feel, and feel the need to run down others to bring them to your level.

Like I said, you feel the need to bi@#h at the expense of others. Goes back to bringing others down to your level. So sad for the hobby...certainly not you.


I have never met anybody who did not have difficulty with CW.  Some had the will to do what was necessary to learn it. Some didn't.

Same with everything else in the world.

I did learn CW. I could not get to 13 wpm after years of practice and multiple ways of trying to get it. I am aggravated with someone with your attitude that anyone can do anything if they have enough will power. That is a load of Crap. You are exactly what turns people off to radio after first getting their ticket. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. I am sure there are plenty of things that I find easy that you would not have a clue about. But of course I am sure you could figure it out with sheer will power, at least in your own mind.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KB2CRK on January 06, 2019, 08:17:48 AM
I have been called half a ham or not a real ham in this thread.
I am sorry I do not add up to a real ham in your opinion,

You're a real ham. Some curmudgeons will never be happy because the hobby is changing with the times, and never again will it be like it was in the 60's and 70's. They don't get to define ham radio for the rest of us, ignore their sad and misguided rants. They're dinosaurs.

Some of these Dinosaurs are in my age group or just a few years older. If I was surrounded by a group like this instead of those helping me to upgrade I probably would have sold my gear back in the 80's. I have had a couple Elmers early on that helped me  with the CW and I did get up to a steady copy at 10 wpm. It took me 5 years to get to 5 wpm for my Novice. after ten years of (yes lack of will power here) I stopped trying. I am sorry that it was a few years later that the code was lowed to 5 wpm for all classes and I was grandfathered into General.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 06, 2019, 08:33:19 AM
I don't have a problem with discarding the CW requirement. Most of the people I talk to never learned CW. Although, claiming it is something other than simple lack of will is annoying. I mean you learned how to talk didn't you.

Now you want to make the extra test easier when they give you all the questions and answers.

Really, is the hobby worthless to you ?

If it is annoying, then don't read it. You just can't admit you have a problem with people who have difficulty with CW, which is why it is annoying to you.

Never advocated for any changes. I did suggest that you petition for harder tests if you feel that is what is needed. But I bet your too lazy to do it. Or your just blowin smoke on the subject.

Where did worthless come from? Maybe that's how you feel, and feel the need to run down others to bring them to your level.

Like I said, you feel the need to bi@#h at the expense of others. Goes back to bringing others down to your level. So sad for the hobby...certainly not you.


I have never met anybody who did not have difficulty with CW.  Some had the will to do what was necessary to learn it. Some didn't.

Same with everything else in the world.

I did learn CW. I could not get to 13 wpm after years of practice and multiple ways of trying to get it. I am aggravated with someone with your attitude that anyone can do anything if they have enough will power. That is a load of Crap. You are exactly what turns people off to radio after first getting their ticket. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. I am sure there are plenty of things that I find easy that you would not have a clue about. But of course I am sure you could figure it out with sheer will power, at least in your own mind.



Yeah, I know truck drivers with as much raw intelligence as many doctors. Yet, they drive a truck.

Same thing.


Title: RE: Make Extra test Easier
Post by: KM4AH on January 06, 2019, 08:38:40 AM
I have been called half a ham or not a real ham in this thread.
I am sorry I do not add up to a real ham in your opinion,

You're a real ham. Some curmudgeons will never be happy because the hobby is changing with the times, and never again will it be like it was in the 60's and 70's. They don't get to define ham radio for the rest of us, ignore their sad and misguided rants. They're dinosaurs.


The reason they changed the rules is because the ARRL, people who sell magazines, and the equipment makers wanted it that way.

Nobody else cares one way or the other.

And , the younger generations living in their mom's basement having been given everything are so used to being given everything that they actually believe that they deserved to have it given to them.