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eHam Forums => Software Defined Radio => Topic started by: KX2T on January 22, 2019, 10:39:04 AM



Title: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on January 22, 2019, 10:39:04 AM
I have been reading the two reviews on the ARRL web site between the 7610 and the Flex 6400M plus reading comments in between the E ham reviews posted on this site as well for some time now. When you look at the numbers from the lab tests they are both very close except in one area which is the MDS figure without any pre amp in line in which the Flex is -114dbm@400Hz and the Icom is -130dbm@500Hz both in the CW mode and when you look at some of the E ham reviews you see one statement pop out and that is that the Flex is quiet but of course it is cause without any pre amp its sensitivity to the Icom is 16dbm less. Now on the low bands the ultimate sensitivity is no big deal but if you oen both radio's and have tried to compare then you should at least use the attenuation and place in about 16db or within a close amount then you will have a fair comparison. The other comment is the s meter and were it is picked up between the to radio's in which case the Icom's S meter show a lower value when you either use attenuation or the RF gain and the Flex does not, this is simply the fact in which the Flex S meter circuit is placed in a different area of the receiver and if you placed a VTVM on the audio output you will see the effect. I wish Icom would have done it like the Flex but there circuit is done between the DSP and front end agc control in there second FPGA digitally and the Flex picks it off not in any digital AGC circuit.
These two radio's are both outstanding works fro a production radio today yet I feel that most really don't read between the lines in lab numbers and then start some none accurate comparisons between them, regardless of what licence class you may have understanding what these figures meant may give some obvious clues when comparing lab numbers and relating to real world comparisons.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: N6YFM on January 23, 2019, 09:30:41 AM
Not sure if there is a question in there.
But yes, both radios are very good.  Which one to get depends upon what operating
style and personal preferrence a person has.
The Flex provides a MUCH more detailed panadapter, visual notch filter system,
more capable virtual com port system for multiple software apps, and calibrated
spectrum scope in dBm (like a spectrum analyzer).
The Icom provides more physical switches and buttons for those that do not
prefer computer style operation.
But for radio use, both will get you there and back.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on January 23, 2019, 06:47:32 PM
I think what you are saying that the Flex is better suited for the video game generation and the Icom is better suited for us old fart types. Apparently you may not be aware that the Icom does work far better with HDSDR as far as giving you a better more detailed spectrum display but either radio is NOT a SPECTRUM analyzer, for some reason ever since the Icom company placed a spectrum display into there radio's there is a very large group of hams who thought they had a spectrum analyzer built in but it was not. Today Flex and Anan give you a huge big screen display and the Icom has a decent built in one but using HDSDR places it in the rear of these two companies but still in the running. The area the 7610 does slightly better is in price for features performance. The 7610 has two complete receivers or as the Flex calls it slices but both RX sections have a completely separate band pass filters plus Digi select front end filters, to get that with Flex you must go with the 6600 or 6600M  which brings another kilobuck plus to the table. The S meter that Flex says can be calibrated is a nice plus as long as you have the test equipment in the shack to do so  other wise its not really anything special.
The one thing that seems to be lost in translation is the front end sensitivity which for some reason many just don't understand what these numbers mean, when comparing the two try using some attenuation on the icom, somewhere between 12 to 15db and then see if either one is quieter.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: M0GVZ on January 24, 2019, 09:29:10 AM
but either radio is NOT a SPECTRUM analyzer

Having owned an actual spectrum analyser I'd kind of disagree. Anything which can display a segment of the RF spectrum and display received signals and their amplitude is a spectrum analyser. Sure you can decode signals on either of those radios but my spectrum analyser had the ability to allow you to listen to AM and FM signals too.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on January 24, 2019, 07:54:39 PM
A real calibrated spectrum analyzer if far more accurate then some band scope either on any of these SDR radio's but they do look nice but in the end they are overblown fish finders and eye candy for the video game generation.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on January 24, 2019, 09:12:19 PM
Quote
A real calibrated spectrum analyzer if far more accurate then some band scope either on any of these SDR radio's but they do look nice but in the end they are overblown fish finders and eye candy for the video game generation.

Ack!  Choke!  Ahem....  still laughing over that one.  Fish finder?  Eh!  :)

Quote
Having owned an actual spectrum analyser I'd kind of disagree. Anything which can display a segment of the RF spectrum and display received signals and their amplitude is a spectrum analyser. Sure you can decode signals on either of those radios but my spectrum analyser had the ability to allow you to listen to AM and FM signals too.

More like a "Spectrum Monitor".

As pointed out, a genuine spectrum analyzer has both guaranteed performance (in cal), versatility and (just for starters) way more appropriate sampling filters for frequency domain analysis than, say... an ICOM-7610.  I can't EVER recall reaching for an ICOM IC-7610 in the lab and thinking:"Yep!  I'll just grab that baby, set it to 10 Hz RBW and VBW and do a (looooong) sweep for close in spectral products!  Sooo much better, than say a Keysight N9000 or even an (ack!) Rigol DSA815TG. And cheaper, too! (well, except for the Rigol)"

Or....  "Yep!  Fine day!  Think I'll just tune in WTIC and see what the Red Sox are up to.  On my N9000."

Really does not happen.  For a reason.

Brian - K6BRN


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: AE5X on January 25, 2019, 08:19:35 AM
More like a "Spectrum Monitor"

Which is also an eZine:
https://www.thespectrummonitor.com/ (https://www.thespectrummonitor.com/)

If, at my age, someone want to consider me and my Flex as "the video game generation" I'll gladly accept!


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K0UA on January 25, 2019, 12:13:40 PM
Quote
but in the end they are overblown fish finders and eye candy for the video game generation.

So they are not useful for day to day amateur operations?   Dang! and I thought all along that "eye candy" was helping me... dog gone it. Learn something new every day.... ::) ::)


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on January 26, 2019, 06:38:25 AM
I didn't say they were useful but they are eye candy plus ever since they started building radio's with any type of spectrum displays you have the spectrum police running around the bands, LOL they think what is in there radio is a spectrum analyzer but all I am saying is it is not. As far as the video game generation with the large displays on 32 to 42 inch monitors yes this does come from many who are into gaming stuff and do like displays on large monitors.
To Brian you would be surprised on how many hams really think what is displayed on there Flex,Icom,Anan or whatever radio they are using feel that what they have is a spectrum analyzer and could be used as such, I am sure you have seen You Tube video's relating to such a thing but all I am saying is NFW there are huge differences between the two, you know this, I know this and a bunch of the technical ham population may also but there are some who think otherwise just listen on the ham bands sometimes between QSO's and you will see, I have also seen this posted in many forums on the net as well.
The displays are useful, I use them myself but if they could give me the best receiver section ever instead of placing a display into a rig I would chose the better RX section, its a nice addition but it is not an absolute necessity for operating a radio unless you have a black box SDR.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on January 26, 2019, 08:58:19 AM
I didn't say they were useful but they are eye candy plus ever since they started building radio's with any type of spectrum displays you have the spectrum police running around the bands, LOL they think what is in there radio is a spectrum analyzer but all I am saying is it is not. As far as the video game generation with the large displays on 32 to 42 inch monitors yes this does come from many who are into gaming stuff and do like displays on large monitors.
To Brian you would be surprised on how many hams really think what is displayed on there Flex,Icom,Anan or whatever radio they are using feel that what they have is a spectrum analyzer and could be used as such, I am sure you have seen You Tube video's relating to such a thing but all I am saying is NFW there are huge differences between the two, you know this, I know this and a bunch of the technical ham population may also but there are some who think otherwise just listen on the ham bands sometimes between QSO's and you will see, I have also seen this posted in many forums on the net as well.
The displays are useful, I use them myself but if they could give me the best receiver section ever instead of placing a display into a rig I would chose the better RX section, its a nice addition but it is not an absolute necessity for operating a radio unless you have a black box SDR.

I agree with you, the displays on our modern radios are spectrum scopes, not spectrum analyzers, there is a big difference.  Having said that, I also agree that receiver performance is paramount since you don't work stations with the display, radio is an audio medium, with the exception of digital signals, and even those are transmitted by phase shifting audio tones.

Back to the OP, the IC-7610 has a higher MDS which means that it is a more sensitive receiver.  I really can't find anything about the Flex 6400M that makes it better than the Icom radio.  Sherwood only shows the 6600M, a more expensive radio, and even the lowly little IC-7300 stacks up nicely against it.  The IC-7610 and the Flex 6600M are only separated by 1db, any ham with a technical background knows that one db in not significant and the Icom', 7300 and 7610, best it in several other key measurements. 

Lets face it, the Flex M series was rushed to market to compete with the Icom's and they have suffered a lot of problems as a result.  I am convinced that the Icom 7610 provides a lot more radio for the money than the 6600M, and certainly beats the 6400M.   Especially when you take into account the reliability factor, the Icom just works and you don't need to call the factory every other day to fix some stupid glitch.  I'm sure all of the Flex fans are turning inside out right about now.  Just take a deep breath, turn off the volume, and just sit back and stare at that pretty display.  Yeah, that it, computer screen, that's what radio is all about. ;D ::) ::)


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: N4UE on January 26, 2019, 04:03:50 PM
Hi to all. Just an observation I've observed by all the various 'fan boys' in the last 55 years as a ham.....
I brought back a new Icom 756PRO from Tokyo, the week it was announced.
Once home and working, I commented somewhere (maybe even here on eHam, it's been a LONG time), how impressed I was with the performance of the Icom's receiver.

I only had about 5 receivers to compare it to at the time, a couple of Drake TRs, R4-B, a R4-C and a recently refurbished 75A-4, and others.

I took a bunch of abuse from the TT fans because the Icom had a "fish finder".

When the TT Orion was announced, the TT guys now proclaimed it was the best invention since the wheel.

I only own one TT, (thank goodness) and would never consider another.  :)
To each their own. Enjoy.

ron
N4UE


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on January 28, 2019, 07:40:18 AM
I think at 2018 Dayton or whatever you wanna call it the Icom CEO had seen that Flex was having some difficulties just like were Icom was in 2017 trying to show a not working radio and placed almost in the back of the exhibit in 2017. I think Icom did what any company would do and that was drop pricing for the show and payback can be a real bitch, they had enough inventory here in the US and sold nearly a 1000 radio's that week, maybe not at the show but between all the participating dealer network in the USA.
A month before that ended up buying the 7610, I should have waited cause I would have saved $400 but I didn't want to have no radio for a month but I more than likely would do it again but I must say I was not an Icom Fan Boy, if the radio with all its feature works to my liking I am good to go, after 50 years and too many different brands that I've owned I buy what works best for me plus try to stay within my radio budget but I must say the 7610 went a little above but that's OK.
I did look long and hard at the Flex but from what I was reading and hearing with there new 6400 and 6600 before 2018 Dayton I did get cold feet yet I have buddies that ordered there radio's and they have been extremely pleased, as they say on TV its all good!


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 09, 2019, 03:44:03 PM
Regarding MDS and receiver sensitivity...

I cannot remember when I've last had a real issue with sensitivity.  I repaired a Heathkit HR-1680 a while back and it could hear anything my Icom R75 receiver, Yaesu FTDX-3000 or FT-991 could hear, with pretty low noise and decent slectivity with the preselector, to boot.

Usually, I have much more trouble with a noisy receiver (R75 without DSP noise reduction, TS-440S, etc) or poor selectivity more than with sensitivity.

Ahhhh..  I DO remember.  My HR-10B receiver.  It was pretty deaf on 10M.  1970's low-cost, Novice equipment.  My 1st receiver.  THAT could have used a bit more sensitivity.  And a tuning dial that is more than notional.  Which it probably why it had a "crystal calibrator".

And it had these weird transistors in it, that came covered with glass.  I used a nutcracker on those puppies to open 'em up and let come cooling air get in to 'em.  Sure smelled funny afterwards, though.  And deaf as a stone.  (OK.  I made that part up!)

Brian - K6BRN


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on February 11, 2019, 11:02:00 AM
What I find is with newer op's that many times the complain about a noisy receiver but when I ask them if the pre amp is on they say yes and that is sometimes the culprit cause they think cause the S meter reads higher that is better, wrong answer. Many of the Icom rigs since the late seventies had pre amp built into there front ends in which to be honest was not really needed cause without pre amps these radio's were almost over sensitive, placing a small amount of attenuation was almost a required tool that I still use today along with the RF gain control which some newbies say that's the old school way of doing things. On 160,80/75 and 40 I run anywhere between 6 to 12db of attenuation and the signal to noise is vastly improved plus I find the copy is soo much more pleasing. I also remember another ham told me its a must to use the pre amp on 10 meters, well the last CQWW phone contest we had a few north south trans equatorial openings, the signals were not even moving the meter without pre amp engaged but the copy was just like 2 meter FM but when I placed the pre amp on it only increase the noise floor, there was NEVER a time I have ever needed the pre amp even on 10 meters, maybe on 6 but its a big maybe.
When I used the Yaesu FTDX3000 I would maybe use pre amp 1 but also 6db of attenuation which gave be the best overall gain plus better S/N on the higher band but here again on 40m and lower I never used the pre amp stages, but I hear conversations on the air all the time guys using the pre amp and complaining about received noise just because they want that s meter to wiggle more, really#$%?* or they want there pan adapter display to jump higher with a more solid line in the waterfall display. Again it stems back and I mean way back to nobody seems to RTFM, they all must be experts yet this hobby is called amateur radio for a reason.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 11, 2019, 08:38:05 PM
James (KV2T):

FB regarding use of RF gain.  An almost forgotten skill.

With the old Heathkit HR-1680, I'm able to use the RF gain control, AF gain and preselector in combination to pull in just about anything the FTDX-3000 can hear, and completely avoid ear fatigue.  I've had to actually demonstrate this, because a lot of newer hams just don't believe it. Part of this "easy listening" is because the HR-1680 does not seem to have much high frequency (3000-3500 Hz) distortion or signal processing chain noise in its RX.  My old TS-440S (which otherwise is a great rig) is pretty harsh in this respect as is my R75 receiver.  Easy to get ear fatigue.  So I use a CLRdsp unit to tame these radios (or the built-in DSP noise reduction in the R75, which is just so-so)

The FTDX-3000, -1200 and FT-991 on the other hand just have very good sound quality with regard to ear fatigue, noise reduction on or off.  The noise reduction DOES help with random channel noise, and this helps reduce ear fatigue, but this is over and above the out-of-the box pleasing sound of the receiver.  Kind of like my old HW-101.  Had a VFO that liked to "walk around" the dial a bit (lots of drift) but VERY easy to listen to, otherwise.

Brian - K6BRN


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 12, 2019, 07:25:30 AM
James (KV2T):

FB regarding use of RF gain.  An almost forgotten skill.

With the old Heathkit HR-1680, I'm able to use the RF gain control, AF gain and preselector in combination to pull in just about anything the FTDX-3000 can hear, and completely avoid ear fatigue.  I've had to actually demonstrate this, because a lot of newer hams just don't believe it. Part of this "easy listening" is because the HR-1680 does not seem to have much high frequency (3000-3500 Hz) distortion or signal processing chain noise in its RX.  My old TS-440S (which otherwise is a great rig) is pretty harsh in this respect as is my R75 receiver.  Easy to get ear fatigue.  So I use a CLRdsp unit to tame these radios (or the built-in DSP noise reduction in the R75, which is just so-so)

The FTDX-3000, -1200 and FT-991 on the other hand just have very good sound quality with regard to ear fatigue, noise reduction on or off.  The noise reduction DOES help with random channel noise, and this helps reduce ear fatigue, but this is over and above the out-of-the box pleasing sound of the receiver.  Kind of like my old HW-101.  Had a VFO that liked to "walk around" the dial a bit (lots of drift) but VERY easy to listen to, otherwise.

Brian - K6BRN

I don't think the FT-3000 is even going to be in the same league as the FTDX-101D.  The new rig is supposed to be a replacement for the FT-5000 and the 3000 does not come anywhere close to that radio in performance.  The FT-3000 is an OK radio, but not a great radio, too many issues with birdies and other nuisances in the design not to mention Yaesu's legendary PIA menu system.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on February 12, 2019, 10:37:00 AM
I am sorry you feel that way on the 3000, I had owned that radio for three years, the only birdies it had was the beep sound changing functions nothing on the receiver side on any of the HF bands or HF spectrum at all so please stop trying to BS your fan club here cause your discrediting yourself with making blank statements like that. I had compared the FTDX5000 to my 3000, yes the 5K was better but not by all that much, it could handle a stronger signal off 2Khz away better than the 3K could but then came along the 7300 Icom and that little beast could go toe to toe with the 5K even on CW.
 If you are talking about lab numbers the radio to best is the 890S and Yaesu has nothing to show for what this radio can do, they have not even shown a working rig yet at any of the shows so its still a pretty prototype markup till they have the real goods and then its got to prove itself which they have been know to BS the ham public before with outrageous RX specs.
This comes from an X Yaesu Fan Boy, the Kenwood is a very excellent superhet which is challenging Icom's statement rig the IC7851 but if you want the best superhet with the most advanced DSP engineering the Icom still is ahead of the Kenwood, for some reasons hams's I know who own both say that the Icom does do there NB and ND circuits better than the Kenwood but that comes at a hefty price. But for the price of admission at the $3K mark the 7610 hold very excellent value and everything work well.
Yaesu has a long hard road so I hope they get it right this time.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 12, 2019, 12:38:09 PM
I am sorry you feel that way on the 3000, I had owned that radio for three years, the only birdies it had was the beep sound changing functions nothing on the receiver side on any of the HF bands or HF spectrum at all so please stop trying to BS your fan club here cause your discrediting yourself with making blank statements like that. I had compared the FTDX5000 to my 3000, yes the 5K was better but not by all that much, it could handle a stronger signal off 2Khz away better than the 3K could but then came along the 7300 Icom and that little beast could go toe to toe with the 5K even on CW.
 If you are talking about lab numbers the radio to best is the 890S and Yaesu has nothing to show for what this radio can do, they have not even shown a working rig yet at any of the shows so its still a pretty prototype markup till they have the real goods and then its got to prove itself which they have been know to BS the ham public before with outrageous RX specs.
This comes from an X Yaesu Fan Boy, the Kenwood is a very excellent superhet which is challenging Icom's statement rig the IC7851 but if you want the best superhet with the most advanced DSP engineering the Icom still is ahead of the Kenwood, for some reasons hams's I know who own both say that the Icom does do there NB and ND circuits better than the Kenwood but that comes at a hefty price. But for the price of admission at the $3K mark the 7610 hold very excellent value and everything work well.
Yaesu has a long hard road so I hope they get it right this time.

The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one.

All I said was that the new FT-101D is suppose to be the top of the line, state of the art, Hybrid SDR radio.  So if it is better than the FT-5000, it will be way better than the FT-3000, at a hefty price of course, but the FT-5000 wasn't cheap when it came out.

So I see you have an IC-7610, good choice, better than the FT-3000,  and the high frequency crud from the DSP can easily be tamed by using the pass band tuning to roll off the high end a bit. 

By the way, the close spaced dynamic range is the last spec I look at.  You sure seem to be overly sensitive.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: NI8R on February 12, 2019, 02:50:49 PM
Hi to all. Just an observation I've observed by all the various 'fan boys' in the last 55 years as a ham.....
I brought back a new Icom 756PRO from Tokyo, the week it was announced.
Once home and working, I commented somewhere (maybe even here on eHam, it's been a LONG time), how impressed I was with the performance of the Icom's receiver.

I only had about 5 receivers to compare it to at the time, a couple of Drake TRs, R4-B, a R4-C and a recently refurbished 75A-4, and others.

I took a bunch of abuse from the TT fans because the Icom had a "fish finder".

When the TT Orion was announced, the TT guys now proclaimed it was the best invention since the wheel.

I only own one TT, (thank goodness) and would never consider another.  :)
To each their own. Enjoy.

ron
N4UE

I asked a question to the tentec user group on yahoo, the answers were blistering. it was related to what other radio would bring them joy other than the tentec model used as the daily. to sum it up , they all wear white t shirts, drive ford escorts color white and eat vanilla ice cream. Nothing by any other brand
or to heck with you. Sold my omni vII immediately.

Greg NI8r


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on February 12, 2019, 04:38:43 PM
Clearly unless you have 10 acres in the country with stacked mono band yagi's 3 elements on 40 plus a 4 square on 80 and a pair of phased verticals on 160 all these radio are a huge waste of time if all you have to use is a multiband doublet or OCF dipole cause having all this receiver performance is become mental masturbation in ones own mind, even the radio in which I use is way overkill for my station but I use the two RX sections and the digi select when a local ham gets on down the block.
I never had seen a spur in the display on the 3000 and owned it between  2013 to 2017, never heard a spur in its receiver so just maybe some of these hams who report issues have maybe not did a good RF sniffing around there QTH to find other sources of RFI from WallWart PS, LED lighting with dimmer switches or other sources of birdies coming from circuits in washing machines, dryers and all sorts of things in there home. A good way to check that is bring your car battery inside and run your radio off 12VDC then shut your main service down, I would bet that most of the crap comes from something in the homes but this might be way to technical for some to understand.
We will see if Yaesu can pull the rabbit out of the hat but clearly its taking a really long time to do so besides there radios including the 5000 have had ALC issues since the beginning, they are very sensitive and even if they are slight over driven create lots of IMD on the transmit side so I hope there new radio has been fixed in this regard.
The only thing I find with the Icom newer SDR rigs is they have full audio bandwidth on the receivers audio amp, its is not rolled off like the audio on the 3000 and the 5000 rigs I have used so you have great upper audio range so either runnig the RX EQ at a negative number or use the NR which still maintains a good overall audio response and has no digital audio artifacts unless servery set way too high is an easy way to tame the full bandwidth. They also have lots of sensitivity more so than many radio's on the market without using any pre amp stages.  


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 12, 2019, 07:23:53 PM
Hi John:

Quote
The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one

I'm sitting here laughing so hard my chest hurts!  The FTDX-3000 has a spur, you say?  really?  Just ONE?  That's pretty good.  Most radios, including SDRs have more than a few.  It's all about how much trouble they cause, which is pretty much ZERO on the FTDX-3000.

You've never used an FTDX-3000, have you?  So you really have no clue at all.  You are mostly reading random opinions from forums, going with the flow and making the rest up (firing for effect?)  Always better to think for yourself, BTW.

Is the Yaesu FTDX-3000 a "great radio"?  That's purely subjective.  I like it.  It is a very capable radio that's alot of fun to use, and other than the menu system designed by committee, has very few bad habits, a great receiver and can take a beating on TX without crapping out.  It performs very well and is fun to use.  Lot's of I/O, built-in sound card, etc., etc.

So.. here's what some actual owners say:

FTDX-3000, 4.7/5.0, 159 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/10736

IC-7610, 4.7/5, 72 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13607

IC-7300, 4.8/5, 311 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/12742

All good radios, all liked by their owners for a host of different reasons.  So... what does "great" mean to you?

Brian - K6BRN



Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 12, 2019, 09:05:55 PM
Hi John:

Quote
The FT-3000 has been shown to have a spurious signal in the display, ostensibly an artifact from the DSP, Yaesu is aware of it.  I'm not making this up, it has been reported on several reflectors.  As for a fan club, I'm not aware that I have one

I'm sitting here laughing so hard my chest hurts!  The FTDX-3000 has a spur, you say?  really?  Just ONE?  That's pretty good.  Most radios, including SDRs have more than a few.  It's all about how much trouble they cause, which is pretty much ZERO on the FTDX-3000.

You've never used an FTDX-3000, have you?  So you really have no clue at all.  You are mostly reading random opinions from forums, going with the flow and making the rest up (firing for effect?)  Always better to think for yourself, BTW.

Is the Yaesu FTDX-3000 a "great radio"?  That's purely subjective.  I like it.  It is a very capable radio that's alot of fun to use, and other than the menu system designed by committee, has very few bad habits, a great receiver and can take a beating on TX without crapping out.  It performs very well and is fun to use.  Lot's of I/O, built-in sound card, etc., etc.

So.. here's what some actual owners say:

FTDX-3000, 4.7/5.0, 159 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/10736

IC-7610, 4.7/5, 72 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/13607

IC-7300, 4.8/5, 311 reviews.  https://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/12742

All good radios, all liked by their owners for a host of different reasons.  So... what does "great" mean to you?

Brian - K6BRN



Sorry if I don't pay much attention to you Brian.  You are what I call a drugstore ham.  You took Bernie's old call sign and upgraded from tech about what,  Three years ago?  Wow, all that experience is just overwhelming.  So what do you know about the 3rd order intercept as it pertains to the radio in question?  Tell me what the IF skirt selectivity is at 6 KHZ.  Most important of all, what is the LO rejection in the first IF stage? 

Your post is clearly the rant of a noob who is trying to give off an odor of OTness. ::) ::)   Not happening.



Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: OH6I on February 12, 2019, 11:10:00 PM
KV2T,

some European Yaesu dealers have Yaesu FTdx101D demo in shop so no just "prototype".

https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php (https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php)

Jari
OH6I


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 13, 2019, 08:23:42 AM
KV2T,

some European Yaesu dealers have Yaesu FTdx101D demo in shop so no just "prototype".

https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php (https://www.hamradio.co.uk/amateur-radio-base-station-radio-yaesu-base-station-radio/yaesu/yaesu-ftdx101d-pd-8964.php)

Jari
OH6I

Thanks for posting that Jari.  If the price shown is correct then the price here in the US should be just under $4000.00.  Since they have a 20% VAT tax in the UK, it should come in around $3500.00 plus or minus, here in the US.  That would be an outstanding price for a state of the art radio.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 13, 2019, 08:56:01 AM
Hello again, John (KA4DPO):

Quote
Sorry if I don't pay much attention to you Brian.  You are what I call a drugstore ham.  You took Bernie's old call sign and upgraded from tech about what,  Three years ago?  Wow, all that experience is just overwhelming.  So what do you know about the 3rd order intercept as it pertains to the radio in question?  Tell me what the IF skirt selectivity is at 6 KHZ.  Most important of all, what is the LO rejection in the first IF stage? 

Your post is clearly the rant of a noob who is trying to give off an odor of OTness. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes   Not happening.

Still laughing.  Feel free to hit the "IGNORE" button or whatever it is you do when frustrated.  I don't mind at all.

Looks like you do your research on people just as poorly as you do on radios.  Time to get back on the web and try again.  You're making the poor folks over at Google feel inadequate.

Lets make this simple....  1.  I've been in amateur radio, continuously since about 1991 and intermittently since 1973  A decent interval.  2.  I've been a professional in digital telecommunications for more than 30 years; an engineer with multiple degrees, over a dozen patents (many "producing"), have developed, produced and delivered MANY systems (and you've used them) and held executive positions in the biggest firms in the industry.  3.  This career, as a professional in communications, has provided enough security that I never have to worry about earning a living again.  Nor do my kids (and THAT is a problem).  I maintain multiple QTHs across the USA with an amateur radio station at each.

In short, I'm where you wish you were, because people and firms voted with their wallet to make sure I kept on doing what I do well.  Architecting, designing and leading the development and delivery of indistrial communications systems.  I tried to retire in 2013,  I really did.  But the overwhelming demand and open arms are just too attractive to walk away from.

OK.  Your turn.  More or less.

Now about the FTDX-3000.  The radio you don't like.  Never used it, have you?  I have two, fully (and I mean FULLY) optioned, at two of my QTHs and like them well.  And they compete with many other radios for time,  And usually win.

I have a good friend that loves his Icom IC-7300 and Flex-6600 radios.  He's not poor, either.  And he thinks the Flex is WAY better than the FTDX-3000.  Which happens to resemble the things I develop, more than a little.  He might be right.  But I like the FTDX-3000 for a variety of reasons.  And when I decide to move on, I'll buy a crate of whatever it is I like, next.  Might even be the new FT-101Ds.  We'll see.

You see, when a person works with this stuff professionally, day in and day out for decades and then decides to putter around in whatever spare time remains with an AMATEUR radio, the preference tends to be whatever feels the most comfortable and gets the job done without a fuss or bad behaviors.  And I'm pretty familiar with what that means.  And not too shell-shocked by what the amateur community considers "cutting edge" (it's not).  So, that's what lead to my preferences.

But then again, I actually USE the radios I comment on.  And often take them apart.  And put them back together.  Just to see what choices the designers made.  I have to say, I'm pretty impressed by the cost/performance compromises FLEX has made.  Been deep into the 6600.  But I'm equally impressed with the attention to detail, robustness and preformance Yaesu built into the FTDX-3000.  Not the menus, though.  That was a brain-fart.

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

(Professional) "drugstore ham"  And loving it.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 13, 2019, 10:04:18 AM

Quote
Still laughing.  Feel free to hit the "IGNORE" button or whatever it is you do when frustrated.  I don't mind at all.

Looks like you do your research on people just as poorly as you do on radios.  Time to get back on the web and try again.  You're making the poor folks over at Google feel inadequate.

Quote
Lets make this simple....  1.  I've been in amateur radio, continuously since about 1991

OK, lets, you were issued a Tech plus in 1990, absolutely nothing before that.  In 2015 you upgraded and took a call that originally was issued to Tom Hahn up in Malibu.

The rest of your post is schoolboy chest beating, the fact that you had to regale me with all of that information tells me a lot about you, it also reinforces my original conclusion.  And FWIW, I'm not the one who is frustrated here. ::) 
 


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 13, 2019, 10:07:49 AM
Back to more important things.  I looks like the FTdx-101D is due to be released in about two months if all goes well.  It will bee interesting to see how it stacks up against the IC-7610 and TS-890S.

As for the Flex 6400M, I don't really see it as a contender.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 13, 2019, 12:27:35 PM
Quote
And FWIW, I'm not the one who is frustrated here. Roll Eye

John:

You mistake arrogance and humor for frustration.   By the way... wasn't 1990.... 29 years ago.  Hmmm.  Well, seems like almost three decades in ham radio, by your metric.  What happened to "three years"?  Is there a ... ranking system, here... by the way?

Nope.  Welcome to the real world.  Must be tough.

Some advice (free):  Actually buy a (new) radio and use it.  It might be fun.

And you are absolutely correct.  On to better things!

Best Regards,

Brian - K6BRN

(Bye!)


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: VE3WGO on February 13, 2019, 03:02:34 PM
....snip ....

But I'm equally impressed with the attention to detail, robustness and preformance Yaesu built into the FTDX-3000.  Not the menus, though.  That was a brain-fart.

...

I wholeheartedly agree!  The rest of the user interface, the appearance, tuning, filtering, noise weaponry, and the audio quality all impressed me in the several times I tried an FTDX-3000, but that menu system? ... no.   I wanted to replace my FT-847 with something newer and better, but those deep and twisted menus on the 3000 made me decide to get the Icom IC-9100.  Now it's true that the 9100's screen is so yesterday and its menus are not perfect either, but they are a lot more tolerable than the 3000's are, and are arranged in 2 easily navigated banks of settable parameters.  Besides, with the 9100 I got VHF/UHF bands and very easy to set up and use duplex satellite functionality as well.

The moral of my story is that performance, price and features are only part of the picture.  Lab equipment can contribute to evaluating those.  But the human interface side, for me and many others, carries a lot of weight in the buying decision too, often more than anything else.

I guess a bake-off of $3000-4000 radios is soon in order.  Tech spec testing and human factors design evaluation would be appropriate.

73, Ed


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: K6BRN on February 13, 2019, 09:43:56 PM
Hi Ed:

FB on the 9100.  If it works for you and feels right, its the best radio.  Which is why there are so many food fights on this topic.  Just love the new ham post that comes up regularly...  "What's the best radio to buy....?"  INCOMING!

I suspect the $3000-$4000 radio shootout will come down to personal preference, too.

I AM interested in the Yaesu approach of 1st IF sampling after traditional down-conversion on their new radio.  Will it be the best of both worlds, the worst or something in between?  We'll see.  But it may take some time.

I recall that Sherwood's list had every specmonger disappointed with the FTDX-3000.  And then users spent some time with the radio (more than normal because of the darn menus) and really liked it.  Hence the very good eham reviews.

So... with the FT101D, we may see something similar.  Neither fish nor fowl, it will take some time after spec pre-judgement before the user community figures out whether this radio is fun, or not.

Just glad to see so many new offerings popping up, with a lot of competitive engineering approaches, after a significant dry spell.  We may be in a solar down-cycle, but to compensate, we also have FT8 and a whole stable of new and interesting radios to look at and play with.

Brian - K6BRN


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4DPO on February 14, 2019, 08:15:43 AM

I AM interested in the Yaesu approach of 1st IF sampling after traditional down-conversion on their new radio.  Will it be the best of both worlds, the worst or something in between?  We'll see.  But it may take some time.


Quote
RE: Is the Yaesu FTdx-101D Direct Sampling or Not?

« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2018, 09:17:27 AM »
 


The Yaesu architecture looks pretty slick.  It basically takes advantage of the analog mixers high 3rd order intercept and then directly samples the filtered image window, followed by DSP. 

That enables AGC and the high dynamic range of the mixer to take care of the front end overload issue that bothers direct sampling radios and still provides all of the cool features of a direct sampling radio. 

I don't see the architecture as a problem but there are some hams who are far more concerned with a display than they are with actual radio performance.   I think this new Yaesu might just prove to be an excellent rig.
 

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2018, 09:21:43 AM by KA4DPO »   Logged 

 
So am I, so am I.

The front end and low frequency digital processing design is very similar to several military designs we did at Harris, minus the display of course.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on February 14, 2019, 06:51:30 PM
It remains to be seen on the new Yaesu, the sdr part could mainly be for the 3d display but this remains to be seen but there block diagrams have not followed with a complete signal path yet. If its an advance superhet design it should be good enough like what the TS890 is but I think the narrow band SDR technology will be used to give advanced DSP filtering and just maybe the very first noise blanker plus noise reduction with zero digital artifacts at all no mater how much you advance there controls plus extremely good alternate channel selectivity. I don't think you will see this radio till Dayton this year.


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KA4KOE on February 22, 2019, 12:02:42 PM
"I used a nutcracker on those puppies to open 'em up..."

OH THE HORRORS!! THOSE POOR PUPPIES!!!


Title: RE: Flex 6400 VS IC7610 ARRL lab test review.
Post by: KX2T on February 22, 2019, 01:28:46 PM
As of today or yesterday the FTDX101D has received FCC type acceptance, when is Yaesu going to roll those puppies out!